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Windows Interoperability in A Linux Distro
Magenta writes "There is a review of the Desktop OS Version 3 Business Edition from Xandros. This operating system is meant to allow users to easily move from Windows XP to Linux without the problems that can arise. Xandros not only can use Window's file system but it is able to run a great number of Windows programs using its CrossOver Office tool from CodeWeavers. This is one of the most accessible distros to come along in awhile and it marks a big step forward in the progress on Linux on the desktop."
This is a must for real end users(mom and dad) change to Linux.
Omar
WineHQs game support has come on tremendously lately, it's not just for apps anymore.
You can FORGET IT until I get my minesweeper and solitaire.
oh, and calc. I so love calc.
** "It's not my job to stand between the people talking to me, and the ones listening to me." -- Pego the Jerk
Xandros' Windows functionality is OK for a demonstration. But its speed sucks for production environment.
BTW, Xandros isn't a pretty looking dektop. And, it is not FREE as in FREE BEER
The only question that comes to mind is:
When do these Windows compatibilites start to become security issues in Linux? I mean I am all for having some Windows apps run in Linux. The main reason I use Linux at home was because things like IE and other security ridden problems in Windows arent available in Linux.
Just my $.02
From Crossover's website:
CrossOver Office currently supports more than 30 of the most popular windows productivity applications
Well, that's quite an acheivement but 30 productivity apps isn't "a vast number of Windows programs".
The original posting overstates the abilities of Xandros.
Crossover office is a product you can buy and install on most Linux distros. It's a nicely patched up and packaged version of Wine.
As for being able to access Windows filesystems, the Linux kernel contains drivers for FAT, FAT32 and NTFS. I would be very suprised if this distro can write to NTFS safely as this is something that is still being worked on.
"Supported" means that if it doesn't run, you get tech support. It also means they will continue to run properly in future versions. There are plenty of other apps that are unsupported which work fine though.
not to mention that Transgaming's Cedega runs all the games the parent mentioned...
"Some things have to be believed to be seen." - Ralph Hodgson
Lets say that it succeeds and you get a few hundred thousand moms and pops pulled over to Linux to run their Windows apps on this distro.
That is a few hundred thousand people who will eventually run into application support issues, driver issues, printing issues etc that they won't be able to turn to friends for help with.
That is a few hundred thousand people who will tell their friends that they tried Linux and it sucked.
The Linux community needs to concentrate on driver support, end user support and encouraging developers to migrate native applications to the platform. Anything else is just inviting failure.
First off , This is great that they have had the fore sight to include the drivers to read and write NTFS .It is also very nice that they have included code weavers cross over office.This is great for getting some people to switch to linux , shame they didn't include cedega as well , which could of really completed the package , though this is a business edition.
.)
But credit where credit is due , the article summary makes it seem like Xandros was responsible for these things.http://www.codeweavers.com/ code weaver site , responsible of Crossover office and naturally a link to wine on which Cross over office is based http://www.winehq.com/.
A link to the linux NTFS project http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/ (I assume this is the driver they are using , correct me if I'm wrong)
(Cross over office is a great product , It also has a rather pleasant installer in my experience.So you don't need to switch distros
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
It sounds like Xandros, with the help of Linspire, could really give Microsoft a run for its money. As Linux becomes more easy to use, I think it is more likely that Linux will take market share away from Windows than Mac. Why buy a new computer for a new OS when you can install a new OS on the computer you already have?
It's OSS, it's Linux, it's familiar. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the XP-style interface, but for some people it could ease the migration process. Let people become accustomed to the benefits of a stable kernel, a powerful software toolkit. If you have faith in the inherent quality of OSS this shouldn't scare you, surely?
Perhaps I'm an incurable optimist, but a journey of 1000 miles must begin with a single step.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Wow, what a tremendously dumb comment.
/. mods to mod the parent insightful.
So here we have a linux distro that according to the review is very easy to use and on top off that even offers the possibility to run many Windows programs out of the box.
Now what does the average slashbot have to say to that?
But I want to run my Windows(tm) games. As long as my Windows(tm) games don't work on linux, linux isn't for me.
Finally, as if this comment hadn't been dumb enough, he tells us that linux has to become more user-friendly in order to gain more market share, so that more games will be available for linux.
The funny thing is that just before that he told us that linux wouldn't gain any market share even with a userfriendly distribution (remember the review?) that runs many windows programs out of the box, because he couldn't play Everquest on it.
Needless to say that it only took seconds for the famed
Impressive...
The real problem is hardware thats not compatable out the box, most people will give up. I've run Mandrake for 2 months no problems (However took a year to get hardware sorted) until a couple weeks back when the computer moved upstairs and I added a wifi card. Its either Windows with its problems (not saying Linux is perfect, merely Linux's short comings don't affect my use of the computer) and net access, or Linux and no internet.
Untill hardware is supportted (And by no means is the *nix developers fault), it'll fail to get a foot hold.
And no, I'm not Linux savvy, I just know UT2004 gets more frames per sec in mandrake (Mandriva, silly, silly name) than XP2 and looks just as good to me, and firefox seems a little more responsive, not to mention CGI scripts/php in apache worked better than apache in windows. And thats what matters to me.
"I may be full of crap about this game, and I may be wrong, and that's fine." -Jack Thompson
I don't get this. Firefox and OpenOffice and the OpenCD and running Apache or MySQL or whatever from Windows are universally considered to be Good Things, because they encourage people to run free applications on an unfree platform, and hook people onto free software from the application end.
However, allowing people to run unfree software on a free platform using Wine or Winex or Crossover Office or whatever is Evil and Wrong and encourages people to forever be trapped by Bill Gates.
How come you guys think that people can only migrate from the applications downwards, rather than from the OS-up?
I'd have thought once you got people to switch the Operating System, your job's mostly done, and getting them to switch applications would be relatively easy - people install and uninstall applications all the time, compared to their OS, after all....
On their downloads page, there is a link for the Open Circulation edition. Completely gratis if you use bittorrent. I'm considering trying it here at work.
"This is one of the most accessible distros to come along in awhile and it marks a big step forward in the progress on Linux on the desktop"
.. text files and environment variables or even recompile them to get them to run ?
The majority of users have simple, finite needs. They want to be able to browse the net, check Email, chat with friends on IM networks, play music and view pictures, and write documents using Word. Occasionally, they want to play games.
Let's assume there is a Desktop Environment / Operation System that allows them to do all that:
o easily
o virus/trojan/spyware free
o through a gorgeous UI
o crash-free
We can easily exclude Windows from the list. Linux doesn't suffer from viruses / worms but does suffer from everything else. That leaves Mac OS-X. It may not be 100% crash-free but everything else is a given on this platform.
So, how does this Xandros edition make things better for those users? It simply introduces more windows problems to the already flawed Linux desktop experience.
Sure, it allows you to 'easily' run some windows applications directly. But is this really the way to go for making Linux more acceptable by the majority of users?
How about bridging the differences between the various DEs ( KDE, Gnome.. ) ? How about realizing all linux users are necessarily programming/systems gurus or wannabes ? Or even providing some nice, complete applications that don't require you to mess with
Hopefully, order will prevail the Linux 'anarchy' and something good will come out of all those fine efforts.
Technology ramblings : Simple is Beautiful
World of Warcraft is apparently considered extremely playable. Unfortunately as is common with the Transgaming stuff that still means that the installer crashes (but has finished when it does), the graphic glitches in places and performance is lousy in some situations without a special hack. Overall it is a way to get to play games, but it is hardly the most user-friendly solution there is.
Xandros is meant to be a typical business os where things Just Work [tm], are simple and user friendly.
These distributions are much better off supporting only ONE desktop solution. The prime target of Xandros doesn't know what GNOME or KDE is, they just want to get their work done. Xandros chose KDE, which is not a bad choice, and did a good job integrating it.
Confusing the issue with two very different ways of using your computer is just not a good idea. It is better to completely integrate one solution.
This is also why Ubuntu should stick to one user interface with their official distribution, and leave KDE to the more unofficial Kubuntu.
For the more technical users / companies, there is always Red Hat, SuSE, Mandrake, Slackware, Gentoo, Debian, etc.
I can't really see what's different between this and major distribution from a commercial entity. I run SUSE 9.3 and it's got everything but crossover office (and Wine is fine for most tasks).
So:
- Four-click install with automatic disk partitioning [SUSE's just about got it]
- Industry-leading hardware detection & configuration [SUSE's got it]
- A single control center for all your settings [SUSE and many distros have got it]
- Shield your files from prying eyes with automatic home folder encryption [ok, it's not automatic in SUSE or most distros, but do you really want your mom and dad to encrypt their files?]
- Acquire images through the USB scanner support [sounds like most distros]
- Support for new nVidia and ATI PCI-Express video cards [sounds like nVidia and ATI]
- Recursively change properties of files in selected sub-directories [Sounds like Konqueror]
- New! Synchronize your system clock with a network time server [Holy shit, computers do this...wow what a novel idea]
- Xandros File Manager [ie konqueror]
- Xandros Disc Burner [ie k3b]
- Full server-accessed Windows networking [ie samba]
- StarOffice 7 with full commercial support [too cool for open office]
- Special Xandros edition of CodeWeavers CrossOver Office 3.0.1 [don't see the major advantages over a well setup version of wine]
- Xandros Networks updates [sounds like most distros]
- Get notified of updates immediately with the Xandros Networks panel applet [sounds like many distros]
- Startup and Trouble-shooting Guide [weee!]
- 380 page User Guide (PDF with download version) [sounds like they cheaped out...SUSE still gives you two solid books in addition to the PDFs].
- Access to a huge inventory of free Linux software [ie the Internet]
- 90 days e-mail installation technical support [ie we don't want you to call and talk to us, oh yeah and screw you that you may have hosed your system when ntfsresize failed and now you can't get online]
The idea that making Linux more compatible with Windows will make it "more ready for the desktop" is just plain wrongheaded. Linux as it stands is more than ready for the desktop. I use Debian on my desktop at home, and have never needed to boot into Windows to get anything done. Neither has my far-from-technophile wife. I actually find Debian to be much more user friendly than Windows and have been able to show several nontechnical people how to use it without problems (once it is set up and installed). Sure, people might miss the ability to play their favorite first-person-shooter, and openoffice.org or the gnome office tools might take a little getting used to for a Windows user, but this is a minor (and passing) inconvenience. The general feeling I get that making Linux act like Windows will make it ready for the desktop just makes me scratch my head in wonder. Are you all idiots? Linux is better than Windows. That's the whole point. Why try to make it act like an inferior system? Why even bother switching to Linux at all if you're just going to turn it into a poorly behaving Windows wannabe?
I have never used Xandros, but are you implying installing linux on a Fat32 filesystem? Why would I want to use a filesystem that does not provide for permissions? If your just talking about mounting and accessing it, what distro doesn't? Every single dual boot system I have ever installed (Suse, Mandrake, RedHat, Fedora etc.) has detected and mounted the existing windows partition. My USB thumbrive mounts automatically in Fedora Core 4, it uses windows format. The only thing I really see different about Xandros is Codeweavers which I already have. I really don't see anything truly revolutionary here. Don't get me wrong I like linux but if you have seen one KDE/Gnome desktop you've seen them all. Every week a new screenshot gallery showing the same tired pictures of KDE, Gnome, OpenOffice etc makes it's rounds on all the linux sites. The only thing to me that has really made things easier recently is the move to Synaptic, APT, Yum, URPMI, Click & Run etc. But again they all do basically the same thing, some better than others but nothing earth shattering. What is so much better about Xandros that would make me want to dump PCLinuxOS? If your just trying to attract windows users, your going to have a hard time. Until Linux is pre-installed on Dell Desktops as a dual boot or cheaper option, your never going to get a windows user to switch.
A quote from the Xandros website...Get full-featured Xandros for a fraction of the cost of Windows XP.
At $129 dollars per license...that's one helluva fraction!!!
Save your money! Use your fav linux distro and buy Crossover Pro for $75 bucks if you need that functionallity!
You've hit the problem right on the head! The users have come to expect (in the Windows world) that everything they buy that "fits" in their PC, will "work" in their PC, at the highest level of performance and optimization.
They've grown comfortable in their propritary softwareship. The problem here is that these same vendors are PROHIBITED (by contract in many cases) from opening up their APIs to non-Microsoft partners if they wish to continue to use the "Certified for Windows" stamp of approval on their hardware.
Do you go out to Sears, buy tires that "look like they'll fit", and then complain when you bring them home to find they don't fit on your Mini-Cooper? No, you find out what kind of hardware your Cooper takes, you bring those specs to Sears and you ask them which tires meet those specifications.
In Linux, since vendors refuse to support the hardware or software through proper drivers (ATI, NVidia, 3Com, etc.), you find out (via the Linux HCL) which hardware is supported by which vendors, and you support THOSE vendors with your wallet.
But I stand by my statements. None of this is a Linux problem. There is more than enough code, talent and time in the Free Software community to write perfected drivers for every single piece of hardware out there that fits in a computer (embedded, PC, workstation, server and mainframe). The problem is that the vendors don't provide docs or APIs, or the ones they DO provide are incorrect, false or just plain wrong.
Trust me, I've been on this side of the fence, working for a Linux company that 3Com approached to ask us to write drivers for their WinModem in Linux, because IBM insisted they "fix it" for their Thinkpad line of laptops (this was back in 2000/2001). 3Com assumed we could just write 100% compatible drivers in a WEEKEND and have a fully-debugged, functional equivalent of their Win32 WinModem driver shipped to them by Monday. No docs from them, no APIs, nothing more than a binary copy of their Win32 WinModem driver.
We insisted they give us docs or APIs or something, and what they gave us... and you'll love this (I still have a copy in my email archives), was a slightly-blurry digital picture of a whiteboard, where their engineers described how they "thought" the Linux version of their WinModem driver would work.
Needless to say, we laughed at them and told them to find someone else. They never did.
So the problem is NEVER on the Linux side when it comes to hardware not functioning properly.
You don't even need to go that far. Just encourage game developers (Id, Epic, Blizzard, etc.) that choose to program in OpenGL, or utilize other open standards, and the games port nearly flawlessly to Linux. Just have a look at UT2004, America's Army, and Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory. Get these engines into the hands of talented people like Ryan Gordon at http://icculus.org/ http://www.bluesnews.com/plans/477/, and you can see that it looks very promising. BTW, WoW works amazingly well using Wine alone.
Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!
I'm currently on Mandriva, and I must say, if my parents need an OS when their Windows machine craps out (again), that will be what I'm installing. Everything works out of the box, and my parents are good enough web searchers that they'll be able to find what they need help on in a google search and on forums.
Even though unrelated, they are warming up to FOSS ever since I installed firefox on their system, so Linux will be simplier "pill to swallow" for them.
insert inflammatory anti-microsoft comment here
"Concentrate on driver support..." are you kidding? As far as the "catch up" game of creating drivers AFTER hardware shows up on the market, often with no public chip docs, the kernel devs do a really good job. But by definition of "catch up" we can never be as good as other platforms until 3rd parties support us out of the box.
The reason we don't have supported 3rd party drivers is because Linux doesn't have the market share (yet) to warrant the OEMs supporting us.
The more people use Linux the more support we'll get.
Or, we could all just sit around "concentrating" on better driver support and user support.
As to end-user support... I've had good experiences with every Linux company and every lone developer I needed help from. As to "migrate native applications" to the platform, I assume you mean Office.
Yeah, you keep waiting for MS to port Office to Linux, something they've specifically said they won't do. I'm not going to hold my breath. There are good alternatives (OOo) and Word, Excel run just fine under Crossover.
The story we need to tell is that there are tens of thousands of applications at your fingertips at $0 cost when you use something like Debian GNU/Linux. The apps are here. Try a vanilla Windows install something. It comes with a browser, a media player, Write, notepad, a calculator, Solitaire and Hyperterm. Almost nothing, and what is there is, compared to FOSS solutions, mostly crap.
So we just need to build the user base to make the platform ubiquitous. Heck, end users may even need a geek to maintain their box for the time being, or at least do the initial install. I don't know about you, but the last time I checked that's the case even with Windows. I'm always getting hit up for free support from family members.
-- John.
Sure, but you are missing is that the computer-using world has been distorted by Windows' dominance. Windows is what the majority of desktop users uses, so 'using computers' means 'using Windows'.
You may have found it better to use Linux, and better to train others without the albatross of Microsoft. But for those users without the benefit of a local Linux-experienced geek to help them out, a Windows-alike may be an easier way of exploring alternative OSes.
I actually agree with you in principle, but I meet people who call themselves developers and admin staff each and every single day and a lot of them have never bothered to even install a distro. They've heard of Linux, and that's about it. Now, I am no expert, nor am I a guru. But I've used Linux for the last 8 years now, and I still don't see a lot of people using it.
You would argue that trying to appeal to these people by mimicking Windows is a mistake. I would argue that the proof of this error isn't in yet. And anyway, this is just one effort among many. (Are any of them really working yet??)
If you were in Linspire's shoes (money, access to programmers and other resources, etc), what exactly would you do to help spread the word?
========================================
Death will come, and will have your eyes
-- Pavese
Why would I want to pay $129 for a Linux distro that tries to emulate Windows when I can buy the current top-of-the-line version of Windows for $11 more?
Ease of installation? Gimmie a break Kubuntu is quite easy to install if you know:
That is LESS than I needed to know when I installed Windows 3.1, 95, 98, 2000, XP, and MUCH less than I needed to install NT4 (concession: or Debian Sarge)
Since I'm a little more technical than a lot of people, I'm even trying Kubuntu with Wine and the Sidenet Wine Installation Utility to see if I can run the applications I need without buying Crossover.
Why am I saying this? Because I refuse to ever upgrade to Windows Vista. I don't need to buy software from a company that will treat me like a criminal every time I need a patch for their shitty software.
Imagine getting frisked (and not by your dream girl/guy either) every time you went to draw money from your bank account... would you be a member at that bank very long? I think not!
Imagine having to pay fees to run YOUR car (gas doesn't count, cause you pay for similar resources to run a computer...like electricity) and not even be allowed to fix it if something goes wrong.
It's riduculous, degrading, annoying, and just a plain shitty thing to do. I think Ubuntu and Kubuntu finally got it right, and I have tried Lindows, Xandros, Lycoris, Mandrake, and all the other "easy" distros. Someone finally got it right, make it work out of the box!
Bye everyone...lunch is over.
Make America grate again!
Actually, the answer is yes there.
I have a Brother HL 1020 laser printer, which strictly speaking is a Windows printer. Xandros identified it and set it up correctly right during the installation.
Let's just say I really like this distro. I chose it very carefully, and I have yet to have an issue with it.
Robert B. Marks
Author, Demonsbane in Diablo Archive
>Actually this is universally considered to be a Bad >Thing, if you speak to anyone who writes, maintains,
>hosts or supports Open Source or Free Software.
Gee...is that why there's a Windows version of Firefox?
>Why should we continue
>to spoonfeed them when there
>is no benefit coming back our way?
>They aren't supporting our community,
>they aren't supporting our
>development, they aren't supporting
>anything we do,
Fanaticism's fun, isn't it kids? I can really visualise the foam issuing forth from the mouth of this particular commenter. Of course, in their autonomic fanaticism, it never occurs to such enlightened thinkers as this one that perhaps when using OSS applications in Windows, it might cause at least some users to become curious about these apps' native OS. This also genuinely does happen...Newbies visit the Linux From Scratch IRC server all the time.
I actually can't think of a better way than something like Cygwin for gradually familiarising a windows user with a command line. It's the perfect wading pool scenario...they can get their feet wet to their hearts' content, but they can also run back to the percieved safety of Windows whenever they need to. Then, when the day comes when they feel they've learnt enough in that medium, they can begin to dual boot. Maybe they want to be able to web surf without security risks. Maybe they've grown sufficiently accustomed to bash in cygwin that they want to experiment with scripting/automation more thoroughly. Maybe they want a graphical user interface that is configurable from the ground up. Either way, they can keep XP for games or whatever else they want, while embracing Linux for those individual reasons...then when the day comes that Linux does run the games they want as well, (via cedega etc)
if they're confident enough they can uninstall XP completely.
Migration is a very transitional process...it doesn't happen all at once...and it has to start somewhere. Getting Linux more widely accepted is going to be a very long term, large scale task...and attitudes like the one in the parent article are not going to help us get there.
How many Microsoft Windows users have you seen reporting bugs with the Free Software they're running on their Windows machines? How many contribute code fixes back? How many actually donate or support the Free Software projects they're using in ANY way? I'd venture to guess less than 1% overall.
While the number of windows users who report bugs or who contribute to FOSS may be small this may be because they just want things to work and either wouldn't know what the problem was or didn't have the programming skills to submit bug fixes. Those who work with a FOSS OS however are more than likely more proficient in one if not both of these.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Because the average user doesn't care about your so-called cause.
People are not going to take the time to care about freedom as it relates to licenses and source code. They just aren't. Now, they might eventually if the RIAA and MPAA and the hardware manufacturers start restricting peoples' access to media, but that's a future consideration, and is not applicable today.
So... how can you get them to switch over? Offer a faster, more accessible product. This is simple, and it works. Just take a look at vehicles. Used to be that you'd have to hand-crank your car. Then came electric ignition. Then came automatic transmissions. Air conditioners and heaters came into fashion. Radios too. Then came anti-lock brakes. People will use better, easier to use products when comparably priced (and since Windows is included in the price of a new PC, and since new PCs carry warranties, they are more desirable than a bare bones PC and a distro). Many will even pay a premium to use a better product (DVD players vs. VCRs, Macs, cookware, etc).
So, if people aren't using Linux, then maybe Linux isn't superior to Windows and Mac OSX for the things that count for the average user. Crazy, I know, but the numbers don't lie.
The original idea behind GNU and then Linux was to imitate UNIX with a free version. UNIX was considered a powerful and useful operating system, but it was proprietary as all anything and required expensive software licenses.
So Windows is proprietary and bound up in licenses, and people think it is useful to have a free work-alike, and they just happen to layer that work-alike on top of Linux instead of writing their own kernel.
Having tried Windows apps under Xandros, my only gripe is that the screen paints are slow, ScrollWindowEx() has a slow implementation, and IDirectDraw.WaitForVerticalBlank() gives a return code saying that it works but it doesn't wait for the vertical retrace -- it is stubbed out. While the native Linux apps are peppier, screen speed is still not one of the standout qualities.
While we are on the subject, there are the purists who insist on talking about GNU/Linux because Linux is only the kernel and GNU is all of the tools. Well, then maybe we should talk about Gnome/GTK/Linux and KDE/Qt/Linux as these are the configurations to do GUI's and we can also say that OS-X is in reality Finder/Quartz/Darwin. And maybe there is a set of users (and developers) who want Win32 API/Linux (i.e. Wine/Linux).
So Linux is better than Windows. Is that true of the GUI layer? Is there anything about Gnome/GTK or KDE/Qt that is really that standout and advanced beyond Win32/GDI?
If I want to break loose from the Microsoft monopoly, Gnome/GTK or KDE/Qt don't really do anything for me. The don't seem to be any more advanced than Win32 API, they are missing some features that Win32 API has, and I would be breaking my backside writing for some small percentage of the desktop market that keeps promising to break out any year now. If I wanted to play around with a GUI tool set in a minority market because it has a cool factor, I would give Xcode/Cocoa a look.
The word-on-the-street I get from my CS department contacts is that if I want to develop for Linux to do it in Java (or Python/wxPython -- in my particular software niche where I am currently Windows bound, another developer has a product using a mix of TCL/TK and low-level C to not be OS bound). Not that the Java GUI API stands out, but at then I would (more or less) achieve OS independence. None of these guys are telling me that I should target Gnome or KDE.