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Google Loses AdWords Case

TheChillPill writes "Google has lost a case brought by a company whose name was being used by Adwords users. Insurance firm GEICO, who had not been using Adwords themselves, objected to Google allowing it's advertisers to use the term in their campaigns." This is a reversal for Google based on an earlier story.

274 comments

  1. As a Google fan by BlackCobra43 · · Score: 5, Funny

    This really saddens me. But it's okay because I just saved a bunch of money on car insurance

    --
    I never spellcheck and I freely admit it. Save your karma for more worthwhile "lol erorrs" replies
    1. Re:As a Google fan by B'Trey · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is a reversal for Google based on an earlier story.

      Don't be too sad. This isn't really a reversal of the earlier decision. It's actually two seperate but related issues. The first decision, which Google won, concerned using a trademarked term to trigger an ad. The second concerned using a trademarked term inside a competitor's ad. So if I pay Google to put up an ad which reads "B'Trey's Auto Insurance - best in the business!" whenever someone searches for Geico, I'm OK. But if I pay Google to put up an ad which reads "B'Trey's Auto Insurance - better than Geico!" then I run afoul of this ruling.

      I'm not real happy with this ruling - unless the ad is fraudulent (ie makes untrue claims about the trademarked term), then I don't see where Geico (or any other trademark holder) has a legal right to protest. But it's nor a reversal of the earlier decision.

      --

      "The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.

    2. Re:As a Google fan by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      But it's okay because I just saved a bunch of money on car insurance - just make it your sig and be over with it!

    3. Re:As a Google fan by Smidge204 · · Score: 4, Informative

      But if I pay Google to put up an ad which reads "B'Trey's Auto Insurance - better than Geico!" then I run afoul of this ruling.

      Do you violate the ruling or does Google for accepting your business?

      Is it now illegal to mention a competitor in an ad for your own service or product?
      =Smidge=

    4. Re:As a Google fan by Fishstick · · Score: 2, Informative

      >Do you violate the ruling or does Google for accepting your business?

      RTFA, that has yet to be decided:

      According to GEICO, the court has stayed the trial for 30 days to give the parties an opportunity to settle. If the parties do not settle, the trial will continue on the question of damages and on the issue of who is liable: Google or Google's advertisers.

      --

      There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
      Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.

    5. Re:As a Google fan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it now illegal to mention a competitor in an ad for your own service or product?

      We'll have to go back to the days when every comercial compared products to "the leading brand" (a few still do).

    6. Re:As a Google fan by EggyToast · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Isn't this already true for advertising? I don't watch much TV, but the times that I do I always see ads for "Eat our chips, they're not greasy like those other guys," "Our laundry detergent works better than the leading brand!" and "why shop at those other guys?"

      They're all vague references to other companies that most people have an idea about, but are not mentioned. I've never seen a car commercial that says "Buy [our brand], because it's just better than a Ford," or a fast food commercial that says "why eat McDonalds when there's Wendys?"

      It seems like these laws are already in place, probably to protect companies from competitors that could engage in either negative advertising or use their established brand to piggy-back.

      To answer your initial question, though, I'd imagine that Google will now reject ads that fall under this criteria. If they accept them and continue to list them, that's Google's problem -- they're the ones who lost the lawsuit, not individual advertisers.

    7. Re:As a Google fan by bentcd · · Score: 2, Informative

      Technically, the laws are there in order to protect the consumer, who might otherwise become confused as to which product comes from which producer.
      With current trademark law, I, as a consumer, can rest easy knowing that when I buy a gadget that says "Sony" on it, chances are it's Sony that marketed it. Without trademark law, Samsung could happily sell Sony-marked merchandise if they figured it would be profitable to do so.

      --
      sigs are hazardous to your health
    8. Re:As a Google fan by robertjw · · Score: 1

      But if I pay Google to put up an ad which reads "B'Trey's Auto Insurance - better than Geico!" then I run afoul of this ruling.

      I looked at the article to see if it specified what the actual ad was that caused the problem. All it said was GEICO had established a likelihood of confusion. I would consider your example a fair use (although IANAL), but what is to stop you from putting an ad up that read "GEICO Insurance" and linking to your site? That could easily create confusion and dilute the value GIECO's trademark. With the thousands, maybe millions of ads that Google has in adwords I would think it prudent for them to just have a list of trademarked words that can't be used in an ad. It would be difficult to review each ad individually to see if the usage was appropriate.

    9. Re:As a Google fan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      what about the ads where a coke truck guy is caught buying pepsi from a vending machine? Or was it the other way around?

    10. Re:As a Google fan by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

      There are these things called "hypothetical" questions... you know, the kind of thing you ask when you want to discuss and compare ideas rather than aquire factual information...

      =Smidge=

    11. Re:As a Google fan by Predius · · Score: 1

      Actually, auto ads regularly mention competing brands directly. For refrence, a Ford ad where they have 'Mr Tough Ford driver' pull out three sample frame rails, with the Ford unit being bigger. He then shows the 'inferior' units while saying which brand they come from, Dodge and Chevy.

      Mazda (I think) has adds with techs wearing lab coats blazoned with "Toyota", "Honda", on them drooling over Mazda's latest and greatest.

    12. Re:As a Google fan by Stone+Cold+Troll · · Score: 3, Informative

      But if I pay Google to put up an ad which reads "B'Trey's Auto Insurance - better than Geico!" then I run afoul of this ruling.

      I doubt that the scope of this ruling includes such marketing hyperbole. Not long ago, if you Googled on "GEICO", you'd see a couple of sponsored ads that read simply "GEICO Auto Insurance" but linked to non-affiliated companies or agencies. This was clearly misleading, and I would hope that this is the sort of thing addressed by the ruling at hand.

      This is not to say that GEICO isn't trying to get a ruling against any use of their trademark (they are), but the courts generally only prohibit misleading uses of a trademark ("Buy GEICO Insurance") while allowing non-misleading use of a trademark for comparative purposes ("We're better than GEICO!").

    13. Re:As a Google fan by Stone+Cold+Troll · · Score: 1

      what is to stop you from putting an ad up that read "GEICO Insurance" and linking to your site?

      This is exactly what was happening, though GEICO took the hardline and asserted that *any* use of the GEICO trademark was confusing (remember, they wanted to stop Google from selling "GEICO" as a keyword, regardless of the content of the sponsored ad). Unfortunately, I suspect that you're correct, and Google will simply blacklist certain trademarks from the sponsored ads, effectively giving GEICO what they want, regardless of the actual ruling in this case.

    14. Re:As a Google fan by ScentCone · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, it's more a matter of being able to back up what you say, or relying on a competitor's own published info. For example, a Subway ad might mention that one of their Super Tasty Toasted Meat Thingy Sandwiches has less saturated fat than McDonald's Big Mac. They're able to say this comfortably because McDonald's actually publishes the information. That's a lot different than saying "our sandwich is better than McDonalds' burger" because that is a very subjective comparison. When companies do want to make claims like that, the language always comes out, "in recent clinical taste tests..." with screen footers referring to the source of the info. Point is, the more narrow the comparitive/competitive claim, the more likely it is to get into an ad... but it also tends to sound drier and have less overall appeal.

      Where that sort of naming-names comparison really works is in highly specialized markets where the consumers are keenly aware of the available products and actually want to compare specs. The nearest thing to this for the general consumer audience is probably the automotive market, where the manufacturers routinely compare horsepower, mileage, etc. with specific other cars.

      There's nothing protecting a company from a competitor's "negative" ad, just laws protecting them from liable (actual false information that impacts their reputation). That's why you don't usually see an ad from Ford saying that "don't buy a Chevy, they're more popular with mean people" etc. Just because an ad points out something inferior about the competition (truly, a "negative" ad) doesn't make it illegal. But regardless of the legality, most advertisers (with the notable exception of political campaigns) stay away from overtly bashing the competition, since they know that it's a sign of weakness. If you can't sell on specific merits, you compose ads that just convey a nice feeling and hope that works. If you have to resort to trashing the competition (however much they may deserve it) you're going to alienate some customers just because of your tone. As long as advertisers don't overtly deceive, they're pretty much able to say anything, which is as it should be.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    15. Re:As a Google fan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Point is, the more narrow the comparitive/competitive claim, the more likely it is to get into an ad... but it also tends to sound drier and have less overall appeal.

      In 90% of tests, broad subjective claims of goodness tasted better than the leading competitor!

    16. Re:As a Google fan by Donny+Smith · · Score: 1

      I think it was a Coke guy drinking Pepsi (which surprised me).

    17. Re:As a Google fan by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      That's already the law in other countries.. I'm really surprised to hear it's not the law in the US too.

      That's why the pepsi taste test ads for example refer to 'another well known brand of cola' rather than coke (OTOH I think in their case that do that because the 'other' cola is just a cheap supermarket brand).

      This is also the reason for the mysterious 'brand X' on soap powder ads.

    18. Re:As a Google fan by ImaLamer · · Score: 3, Funny

      What's wrong with you? The ruling is so simple to understand even a caveman gets it.

    19. Re:As a Google fan by MCraigW · · Score: 2, Interesting
      That's why the Pepsi taste test ads for example refer to 'another well known brand of cola' rather than coke (OTOH I think in their case that do that because the 'other' cola is just a cheap supermarket brand).

      The Pepsi side-by-side taste test ads that I've seen (in the US) refer to Coke.

      There are also other Pepsi ads that refer to Coke, like the one where they keep changing the Coke vending machine sitting beside the Pepsi machine, and everyone keeps buying from the Pepsi machine.

      (Off Topic bit) The power of advertising: In blind side-by-side taste tests, Pepsi always overwhelmingly beats Coke -- but everyone keeps buying Coke anyway.

    20. Re:As a Google fan by vettemph · · Score: 1

      Of course I have not read the F article but I think the issue here is the difference between mentioning your competitor in your own ad VERSUS licensing one companies trademark to another company when the trademark is not yours to sell or license.

      As a Google fan i would like to see Google do the right thing and not license trademarks to the trademark owners competitor. They can license the term "Insurance" to anyone they want.

      --
      The government which is strong enough to protect you from everything is strong enough to take everything from you.
    21. Re:As a Google fan by B'Trey · · Score: 1

      The power of advertising: In blind side-by-side taste tests, Pepsi always overwhelmingly beats Coke -- but everyone keeps buying Coke anyway.

      Source? Pepsi sponsored a series of taste tests, which they won hands down. But there were a huge number of problems with the tests, including opening the Coke before hand so it went nearly flat, exposing the brands to the consumer, etc.

      --

      "The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.

    22. Re:As a Google fan by johnathan · · Score: 2, Informative

      If I recall, the thing about the taste tests is that the testers were only given a small sample of each soda. When taking a small taste of something, people will often prefer a sweeter flavor. Thus, Pepsi, being sweeter, won these taste tests. Over the long term, though, that much sweetness becomes cloying and people will prefer the less sweet option. This is evidenced by the fact that "case tests", where people are given a larger quantity of soda to drink at home over a period of time, generally show a preference for Coke.

      --
      You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
    23. Re:As a Google fan by kaptron · · Score: 1

      As far as I can remember, Pepsi ads have sometimes mentioned Coke (I just saw one yesterday... a Diet Pepsi machine with a Diet Coke machine next to it... a truck keeps coming back to remove the Diet Coke machine and replace it with Coke Light, Semi-Diet Coke, whatever, etc. but they all fail because Diet Pepsi ownz0rz wow OMG!!) but not the other way around.

      It seems that leading brands (Coke, McDonald's) tend not to mention their competitors, because there's really no need to from a marketing perspective. Their competitors, on the other hand, will sometimes target them specifically (i.e. Subway pointing out less fat in their sandwich than a Big Mac, the Pepsi example).

      In any case, this all seems to slightly deviate from the original Adwords example... specifically searching for a brand or product and seeing a competitor's ad with "better than brand A!" seems different from just seeing an ad on TV... at least that seems to be the point of the Geico lawsuit, which I admittedly don't entirely understand (nor care to) myself.

    24. Re:As a Google fan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but as part of a reality TV show, I'm using a computer that was built too small for the rest of the year and had problems reading the type.

    25. Re:As a Google fan by SeaFox · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They're all vague references to other companies that most people have an idea about, but are not mentioned. I've never seen a car commercial that says "Buy [our brand], because it's just better than a Ford,"

      I do. But then, they don't use dumb resoning like their car is "just better" than a Ford. They say things like "higher resale value than Ford or Chevy", "more interior room than Accord", "higher owner brand loyalty than Toyota". And considering how polls and studies are conducted nowadays they all can make the cliam and have a "report" to back it up.

      It seems like these laws are already in place, probably to protect companies from competitors that could engage in either negative advertising or use their established brand to piggy-back.

      Slightly off topic, but I wish eBay had a policy like this. If there's one thing that bothers me it's when I search for a certain product by brand and model number and get a bunch of resluts for other products where the seller put "not XXXX" or "better than XXXX" in the item title/description.

    26. Re:As a Google fan by Aidtopia · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "Eat our chips, they're not greasy like those other guys," "Our laundry detergent works better than the leading brand!" and "why shop at those other guys?"

      I believe that advertisements avoid naming the competition because:

      1. Mentioning the competition, even in a bad light, might reinforce their brand.
      2. The parent company may also be the parent of the "leading brand". (See Proctor and Gamble for an example.)
    27. Re:As a Google fan by KarmaMB84 · · Score: 1

      Pepsi's US marketshare isn't exactly dwarfed by Coca-Cola's. I think Pepsi does it because only an idiot would actually be confused by who makes Pepsi (Pepsi, of course) and who makes Coca-Cola (duh!).

    28. Re:As a Google fan by Fishstick · · Score: 1

      I think you mean rhetorical question?

      --

      There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
      Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.

    29. Re:As a Google fan by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

      No, I mean a hypopthetical question.

      =Smidge=

    30. Re:As a Google fan by silicon+not+in+the+v · · Score: 1
      Do you violate the ruling or does Google for accepting your business?
      According to TFA in the Register, that is still to be decided. See quote below:

      According to GEICO, the court has stayed the trial for 30 days to give the parties an opportunity to settle. If the parties do not settle, the trial will continue on the question of damages and on the issue of who is liable: Google or Google's advertisers.
      --
      We may experience some slight turbulence and then...explode. -Capt. Mal Reynolds
    31. Re:As a Google fan by WhitetailKitten · · Score: 1

      I've got an old clip on my box of an old Coke commercial. It featured Max Headroom shilling Coke while dissing on Pepsi. This is by no means an even partial transcript, but it included things like:

      "Max Headroom here with..." [light shines on Pepsi can in a dark room in front of Max's monitor - cut: Max looking off to his right, as if to have an aside with the viewer] "This is my guest?"

      [Max then turns back to the Pepsi can and gives a snide little grin.] "I heard you were big in the old pop biz..." [No response from the Pepsi can.]

      [Condensation on the Pepsi can. Max slurs as per his computer voices] "Sssssweating? It's true. More people prefer the taste of Coke over Pepsi."

      Max also refers to himself as a "Cokeologist".

    32. Re:As a Google fan by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      Well, I think those questions are very important to advertising in general, and *should* be decided by the court - or else we'll just have to wait and have another lawsuit about the same issue in print or some other medium.

      Anyway - haven't there been lots of ads in other media that were fine with mentioning the competitor? Like all those Visa ads - xxx doesn't take American Express and such?

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    33. Re:As a Google fan by Breakfast+Pants · · Score: 1

      "But they don't take American Express."
       
      On a bottle of Equate Mouthwash from Walmart: "Compare to Listerine active ingredients*"

      "*This product is not manufacted or distributed by Warner Lambert Consumer HealthCare, Distributor of Listerine"

      --

      --

      WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
    34. Re:As a Google fan by ikegami · · Score: 1
      Do you violate the ruling or does Google for accepting your business?

      According to the article, the court hasn't decided this yet.

      Personally, I think it would be the advertisers fault, not Google's. Do you sue the domain registrar when someone registers a trademarked domain? no. Do you sue the government when someone registers a trademarked company name? no. Do you sue the web host when someone post a page with a trademark violation? no.

  2. Lost its case, huh? by RandoX · · Score: 5, Funny

    Should have had a Case Else.

    1. Re:Lost its case, huh? by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      That is what an appeal is.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    2. Re:Lost its case, huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      That would have been so much funnier if you'd said "had a default" instead. What the hell is "Case Else"? You kids today with your Visual Basic and your rap music. Get off my lawn, dammit!

    3. Re:Lost its case, huh? by WilliamSChips · · Score: 1

      Google mostly uses Python, which doesn't have a switch/Select Case/whatever statement. It uses elifs instead.

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
  3. But by kevin_conaway · · Score: 5, Funny

    Its understandable seeing as how Geico was losing 15% of its profits.

    1. Re:But by kevin_conaway · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Normally I wouldn't reply to myself, but you moderators are idiots. There was nothing insightful about my post. It was a joke, its funny, laugh.

    2. Re:But by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2, Funny

      Thanks, and by way of this post, my Insightful mod will be removed :) Have a nice day.

    3. Re:But by BlackCobra43 · · Score: 1

      I was also curious as to how the moderators could not only take this oddly round 15% figure at face value but also NOT see the underlying humor.

      We're just a couple of misunderstood jokers

      --
      I never spellcheck and I freely admit it. Save your karma for more worthwhile "lol erorrs" replies
    4. Re:But by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      Its understandable seeing as how Geico was losing 15% of its profits.

      That is a pretty vague piece of information, and even so, I can't find this in any of the news stories I checked. I'm curious how much of this really has anything to do with the contended Google listings.

    5. Re:But by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      D'oh. I guess it was a joke, that's what I get when I take too long to get back and finish a reply.

    6. Re:But by KylePflug · · Score: 1

      Maybe it would help clarify if he'd said that in fifteen minutes they had lost 15% or more on profits?

  4. Are they sure... by Drooling+Iguana · · Score: 4, Funny

    Are they sure that people weren't actually using the word "gecko"? I've heard a lot of people get the two confused.

    --
    ... I'm addicted to placebos
    1. Re:Are they sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Mozilla should totally sue Geico for using the word Gecko in their commercial...after all isn't this practically the same thing?

  5. I wonder if this is going to broaden... by Undefined+Tag · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I wonder if this is going to open the door for companies to take action against domain names that are similar to their trademarked name.

    If it's unacceptable for Google to sell "Geico", will it also be unacceptable for someone to have www.G31c0.com and no, I don't know if that's a valid URL or not.

    1. Re:I wonder if this is going to broaden... by stinerman · · Score: 3, Informative

      Its certainly a valid URL. Each domain name must start with a letter or number, and then may be made up of letters, numbers, and hyphens, to a maximum of 63 characters.

      (Thanks to Wikipedia)

    2. Re:I wonder if this is going to broaden... by Dachannien · · Score: 4, Funny

      I guess now I don't need to register iwonderhowlongadomainnamecanbe.com.

    3. Re:I wonder if this is going to broaden... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not registered. Of course, how many 733t-speakers are going to buy insurance? Better to go for typos like gieco.com -- except "Government Employees Insurance Company" already got there first.

    4. Re:I wonder if this is going to broaden... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If not, this may be the first time a non-existent domain was /.ed.

    5. Re:I wonder if this is going to broaden... by xtracto · · Score: 1

      you misspelled 1337.
      w00t!

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    6. Re:I wonder if this is going to broaden... by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 3, Funny

      Hmm.. I wonder if I could register 127.0.0.1 as a domain name :)

      (OK I'd have to register '1.com' or something.. interesting idea though).

    7. Re:I wonder if this is going to broaden... by springbox · · Score: 1

      You might want to check out this or this. Both are 63 characters long.

    8. Re:I wonder if this is going to broaden... by jordyn · · Score: 1

      Of course, in a few minutes someone will have registered it and will be trying to use the traffic to sell PPC ads for insurance, or more readable domain names, or something...

    9. Re:I wonder if this is going to broaden... by Atario · · Score: 1

      Too bad we don't still use DOS. You could clean up with command.com.

      --
      "A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
  6. Remove Geico from searching.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They should just remove Geico from their search DB all together, you know just to protect their trademark! Hope they are quite clear on their website info in their commercials, because that'll be the only way anyone finds it then!

  7. Bah... by rwven · · Score: 1, Interesting

    This pretty much proves the pathetic state of our legal system... The fact that essentially the same case can be tried twice within a very close timeframe and two different results can be achieved. I can understand that something 50 years ago may get a different result than now based on changes in society... But we're talking here about two of the same cases sitting in the same medium in a very close proximity in time. I think it's time for some judicial reform... Maybe that's just me...

    1. Re:Bah... by B'Trey · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not the same case. One concerned using a trademarked term to trigger an ad. This one concerned using a trademarked term inside a triggered ad.

      --

      "The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.

    2. Re:Bah... by rayzat · · Score: 1

      If you read the article you would have noticed that these two cases are one in the same. The early ruling was one part of the claim this ruling is the second part.
      >However, that ruling, issued in December, left open for trial the question of whether the use
      >of the trade marked terms in the text of sponsored ads breached GEICO's rights.

    3. Re:Bah... by tgd · · Score: 4, Funny

      This pretty much proves the pathetic state of Slashdot. The fact that essentially everyone can not RTFA and apply basic reading comprehension to understand the two are not the same. I can understand that slashdot 5 years ago may have gotten a different result now based on changes in society... But we're talking here about basic reading skills with two stories in a very close proximity in time. I think its time for some educational reform.

      And yes, its you.

    4. Re:Bah... by stevemm81 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, you're wrong. A judge initially ruled that just selling ads that appear when someone searches for a trademarked term is fine under the law but was unable to rule without a trial whether it was OK to include the trademark in the ad itself.

      It looks like the trial has taken place, and the court ruled that having the trademark (Geico) in the ad is misleading, and could confuse people into thinking the insurance being sold is affiliated with Geico. So, that's not allowed.

      You can disagree with the outcome, sure, but the judges' actions seem very reasonable: rule quickly in summary judgment on the obvious issues, defer the more complicated ones for a trial.

    5. Re:Bah... by LordKronos · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Putting aside for a moment the fact that you missed that these were 2 separate but somewhat related cases....

      I agree. Every court should always come up with the same conclusion. And in that spirit, we can probably save ourselves a lot of tax money by eliminating all of the higher courts and doing away with the entire appeals process. Whats the point of appealing? The second court should come up with the same conclusion as the first.

    6. Re:Bah... by rwven · · Score: 1

      what's interesting is that even though I suck and don't know what i'm talking about in my post, I still get modded up. thank you slashdot for helping my self esteem!!! :-)

    7. Re:Bah... by linuxhansl · · Score: 1
      This pretty much proves the pathetic state of our legal system

      I call bullsh*t.

      1. These were two different cases one about trademarks in general, and one about trademarks in advertisements.
      2. It seems clear to me that Google can't just sell any term as an adword. In this case Geico spent time and money to build the brand. Now a competitor may buy the "Geico" adword and place competing advertisements using the established brand of Geico capitalizing on Geico's investment.
      I agree with your statement about the current state of the legal system - in general... In this case, however, the system actually worked.
  8. Explain this to me by rolfwind · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Google is one of many search service. You use it voluntarily. Why shouldn't they have the right to display what they want depending on the word you type in. They are not using the geico name illegally as I know, simply display competitor's sites when that search is iniated.

    A similiar thing happens when I go to fast food (KFC, Tacobell, Pepsi owned?) restaurants and ask for a Sprite - "No, sorry sir, we only carry Slice. Would you like that?" They don't simply say no and leave it at that.

    They could as easily drop geico's webpage completely - that should be within google's rights. No one promised Geico that they be displayed at all after all in this privately owned website.

    1. Re:Explain this to me by generic-man · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Google's job is to navigate and not deceive. If you told a cab driver "Take me to the Holiday Inn" and he took you to some shady motel that paid off the taxi driver, you'd be pissed off.

      Google makes money off of ads which are supposed to be "related" to your search query. Misusing someone's trademark to link to other companies is not legal.

      Related story in which colleges' names were being used to sell disreputable degrees.

      --
      For more information, click here.
    2. Re:Explain this to me by tgrimley · · Score: 1

      The issue is that Geico has the rights to its name and the association of its name with its product. When Google allows AdWords to associate Geico's name with a competitor's product, that essentially infringes on Geico's rights.

    3. Re:Explain this to me by B'Trey · · Score: 5, Informative

      Google makes money off of ads which are supposed to be "related" to your search query. Misusing someone's trademark to link to other companies is not legal.

      Wrong on two accounts. First, it's not a misuse. Other insurance companies are certainly related to a search on "Geico." Second, it is not illegal to display ads based on a trademarked term. It's only illegal to display an ad which uses the trademarked term inside the ad.

      --

      "The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.

    4. Re:Explain this to me by danheskett · · Score: 1

      Actually, It'd be more like the cab driver asking you "Are you sure you don't want the "Holidee Inn", which is cheaper but over in a bad part of town?"

    5. Re:Explain this to me by generic-man · · Score: 1

      Allow me to provide an example of the ads used.

      GEICO
      Save money over Geico. aff
      freeinsquot.com

      BZZT! WRONG! BZZT! WRONG! BZZT! WRONG! BZZT!

      --
      For more information, click here.
    6. Re:Explain this to me by xtracto · · Score: 1

      again and again.. RTFA, That part of the case was won by Google (popping up the competitor's name when someone search Gieco), this one is about the word GEICO (the company name) INSIDE the ads...

      I MUST RTFA I MUST RTFA... give me 100 lines.

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    7. Re:Explain this to me by gowen · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Why shouldn't they have the right to display what they want depending on the word you type in
      Because you're not allowed to leverage other people's trademarks to sell your service. That's the point of trademarks. You might as well ask "Why can't I put innocuous words like `Armani' on the shirts I make".

      Sheesh.
      --
      Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
    8. Re:Explain this to me by generic-man · · Score: 1

      Roto-Rooter pursued and won litigation against companies that used related spellings like "Rota-Rooter" to fool Directory Assistance operators. With a New York accent, both of those names sound very similar.

      However, this is Slashdot, where names like "killustrator" and "mikerowesoft" are considered original.

      --
      For more information, click here.
    9. Re:Explain this to me by rolfwind · · Score: 1

      Because you're not allowed to leverage other people's trademarks to sell your service. That's the point of trademarks. You might as well ask "Why can't I put innocuous words like `Armani' on the shirts I make".

      No, I would think it's closer to going to Neiman Marcus (or Macy's or whoever) and asking to see their selection on Armani shirts.

      On the way there, the sale's clerk goes "Oh, btw right here next to the Armani shirts is our housebrand." The sign shows it's 50% off and looks like the same quality.

    10. Re:Explain this to me by scovetta · · Score: 1

      It's not actually the same. For many people, Google is the Internet, and so the rules that apply to them need to be a little different. They could easily turn to evil, destroying companies by removing them from their search index (or only returning commercial links if you pony up a fee). With such power comes responsibility, and while I don't think the Geico should complain (they are free to Adwordjack their competitors name), they have a good point. Could you go out on the street and sell your own brand of soda with the label: Better than Coca Cola?

      Anyway, just me $0.02.

      --
      Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. --Nietzsche
    11. Re:Explain this to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's only illegal to display an ad which uses the trademarked term inside the ad.

      And hell, with the proper "TM owned by respective owners" fine print, you CAN use trademarks in your ad, especially for the purpose of comparison (truth in advertising laws do step in here though, so you better be sure your comparison is truthful ;)

    12. Re:Explain this to me by tgrimley · · Score: 1

      I did rtfa, I just didn't make it clear I was talking about competitors ads with the geico name in them. Although to me, I think it's pretty shady either way.

    13. Re:Explain this to me by bsgk · · Score: 1

      It's only illegal to display an ad which uses the trademarked term inside the ad.

      IANAL, but if this is actually true, how does Pepsi run all those ads with Coca-Cola products in the ad?

      Seems like the same premise to me. Pepsi uses Coke's trademark to claim that Pepsi is better in their ad ... "Car Insurance A" uses GEICO's trademark to claim that "Car Insurance A" is better in their ad.

    14. Re:Explain this to me by B'Trey · · Score: 1

      Yes, you can generally use tradmarked terms in an ad. However, according to this ruling, Google can't display your ad based on triggering from the trademarked term, even if the use of the term within the ad is legal. So Google can trigger your ad off the trademarked term, or you can use the trademarked term in your ad, but if you do both at the same time, it's illegal. Go figure.

      --

      "The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.

    15. Re:Explain this to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Could you go out on the street and sell your own brand of soda with the label: Better than Coca Cola?

      What about "I can't believe it's not butter" ?

    16. Re:Explain this to me by B'Trey · · Score: 1

      It isn't illegal to use the term in the ad. It's illegal to trigger the ad based upon a search term if, and only if, the ad contains the trademarked term.

      --

      "The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.

    17. Re:Explain this to me by scovetta · · Score: 1

      Good point, but it's not, "I can't believe it's not Kraft Singles"

      --
      Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. --Nietzsche
    18. Re:Explain this to me by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      And If I did a search on GEICO competitors would that be okay?
      The way Google works you could get pages like GEICO sucks, We have cheaper insurance than GEICO and why I would never buy from GEICO again. All of which would be legit. It is not as if GEICO.com was being hijacked. Companies that are in the same market as the target of the search ARE related.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    19. Re:Explain this to me by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      Hmmm a better analogy is that the Taxi driver tells you about an alternative hotel he knows and offers to take you there instead but doesn't force you to go there.

      What you're describing is a phishing attack, not a google ad. If the google ad said "Click here to go to www.geico.com" but went to a competing insurance company, then you'd be correct.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    20. Re:Explain this to me by gowen · · Score: 1

      No. It's like Calvin Klein paying Macy's employees to send them to the CK shirts whenever customers ask for Armani...

      --
      Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
    21. Re:Explain this to me by bentcd · · Score: 1

      It probably has to do with the degree of association. The more likely that a consumer would mistakenly believe that this is a Geico ad, the more likely it is to be illegal.
      This is most likely the result of a reasoning along the lines of "a consumer is prepared for the eventuality that searching on Foo might turn up random ads, including ones that use competing marks in a legal manner. Further, a consumer is prepared for the eventuality that if he searches on Geico, he will get ads for Geico's competitors. What he is not sufficiently prepared for, however, is when he searches on Geico, gets an ad that says Geico in it and for this not to actually be Geico".
      The line has to be drawn somewhere, and this appears to be that particular "somewhere".

      --
      sigs are hazardous to your health
    22. Re:Explain this to me by bentcd · · Score: 1

      Could you go out on the street and sell your own brand of soda with the label: Better than Coca Cola
      Probably, so long as you make it quite clear that you're not actually selling Coca Cola. (Depending somewhat on your local "truth in advertising" laws, however, you may end up having to prove your claim.)

      --
      sigs are hazardous to your health
    23. Re:Explain this to me by generic-man · · Score: 1

      That would be okay, yes. However, people were running ads in which the keyword "Geico," all by itself, linked to another company's web site without any of the phrases you listed. That is not permitted.

      Thank you for arguing mindlessly about hypothetical situations unrelated to the topic at hand.

      --
      For more information, click here.
    24. Re:Explain this to me by generic-man · · Score: 1

      Pepsi runs television ads in which they clearly identify themselves as the sponsor of the ad. Had they deceptively referred to Coca-Cola as the sponsor, they would be in serious trouble.

      However, this discussion is about search engine advertising. I just googled for Pepsi and found no advertisements for Coke that triggered from the keyword.

      --
      For more information, click here.
    25. Re:Explain this to me by rolfwind · · Score: 1

      And that's illegal how?

    26. Re:Explain this to me by yfarren · · Score: 1

      Actually, no. You are allowed to leverage somone else's Trademarks to sell your service. You are not allowed to represent that you are connected with their trademark, unless you are.

      The point of a trademark, actually, is to protect the PUBLIC. The idea is that a company, like ROLEX is widely known for making great watches. So the public has an expectation of quality from a company like Rolex. Thus, you are not allowed to represent that you are making Rolex watches, unless you ARE making Rolex watces (or have a working arrangment with them). If, however Rolex stops being a term used to describe a TYPE of something, (like Escalator) then the public no longer associates your brand name with YOU, and anyone can use your brand name.

      Now, with regard to things like using a competitors brand name in MY advertising. It gets a little sticky. See, if I say "My stuff is better than BRAND X" then Brand X can sue me for trying to sully their brand name. Another issue is that as often as not advertising is really about name RECOGNITION, so if I include my competitors NAME in my ad, I am just giving them free advertising. Many companies, to avoid these problem, just dont use other brand names. However, if I stay completely factual (in a recent laboratory test, MyBrand cleaned clothes 38% faster than Brand X _TM_) and make sure that I represent BrandX as trademarked, then I shouldnt have LEGAL problems.

      Think of things like the Coke Vs. Pepsi Ads. Better that Botox tm? face cream.

      Why you cant put "armani" on the shirts you make, is because that would be representing that you are making Armani Shirts. However, in your advertising, if you wanted to, you could say "better than Armani?" Without much of a problem. However, saying "Better than ARMANI!" would likely get you in trouble.

      Essentially, with Trademarks, the question to ask is "could a reasnoble member of the public think that this use of a trademark implies a connection between the user of the trademark, and the owner of the trademark?" If that answer is yes (or if you are sullying(not the right legal term) the name of the trademark, then you could be in trouble. Otherwise, have fun

    27. Re:Explain this to me by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Actually no it really is about the topic at hand. Why are Ads for a competing product NOT related to the search? You are claiming that competeing offers are not related to a seach on Geico. These are Ads, They are marked as Ads, and I can not see how anyone that has a brain would be confused that they are not links to Geico.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    28. Re:Explain this to me by cahiha · · Score: 1

      Misusing someone's trademark to link to other companies is not legal.

      That's not true in general and it's not what the court says. The court allowed using someone's trademark to link to another company, but it limited what the text of that link could say.

    29. Re:Explain this to me by gowen · · Score: 1
      The point of a trademark, actually, is to protect the PUBLIC
      Bingo. And if I type "Geico" into a search engine, I do not want to get linked to Dave's Insurance Hut, just because they've paid Google the most money.

      I type "cheap insurance" then I deserve what I get, but if I ask for Geico, I've a reasonable expectation that Google direct me to Geico.
      --
      Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
    30. Re:Explain this to me by cahiha · · Score: 1

      Why shouldn't they have the right to display what they want depending on the word you type in.

      Nobody has the right to "display what they want". You or I can't use trademarked terms in arbitrary ways, and neither can Google.

      A similiar thing happens when I go to fast food (KFC, Tacobell, Pepsi owned?) restaurants and ask for a Sprite - "No, sorry sir, we only carry Slice. Would you like that?" They don't simply say no and leave it at that.

      What would be similar is if you order a Sprite and then find out when you take your first sip that it's a Slice. The court basically ruled that if you order a Sprite and they don't have it, they have to tell you about it before you take your first sip. And that seems pretty reasonable to me.

    31. Re:Explain this to me by generic-man · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A user searches for Geico.

      ACCEPTABLE AD:

      Allstate Insurance
      We can save you 20% over Geico's rates
      www.allstate.com

      UNACCEPTABLE AD:

      Geico
      Get cheaper car insurance
      www.geico-compare.com

      --
      For more information, click here.
    32. Re:Explain this to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Googled on MSN?

    33. Re:Explain this to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not just any MSN, but the new MSN Search. Click here to download the all-new MSN Search toolbar to get free pop-up blocking and tabbed browsing in Internet Explorer 5 and later!

    34. Re:Explain this to me by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      how does Pepsi run all those ads with Coca-Cola products in the ad?

      They do? On all the adds I've seen they refer to 'another well know cola' and no reference to coke is ever made.

    35. Re:Explain this to me by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      You'd would have to prove it.. you're making an assertion.

      That's why the pepsi adds don't say pepsi is better than coca cola, they say 'in taste tests 8 out of 10 people preferred pepsi'. It's weasel words... the implied 'better' is there, but they didn't say it.

    36. Re:Explain this to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A blog I read that TrackBacked to a blog in which some guy who watches TV noted that Diet Pepsi ads clearly have Diet Coke cans in them.

      I don't watch TV myself. I don't even own a TV.

    37. Re:Explain this to me by yfarren · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I was not specific enough. The point is to protect the public from Company Q misrepresenting that it's products are Company Z's. If you want to claim that Google's ad results are indicative of random Insurance Company Actually BEING Geico you might have a case. I dont think you really would have a case, as I dont think a reasnoble person would think that. Geico has argued (apparently succsefully) that using the word "Geicko" _IN_ an ad is confusing to a reasnoble person. But if you could make that argument, you might have a case.

      Just on a side Note. We live in a society, where we try to balance things. This right Vs. That right. One persons rights, by their nature, will be limitations on another persons Freedome. That will ALWAYS be true. It is silly to say "I should have ALL the rights." That would mean that everyone else would have none. The law in general, attempts to create a framework for the Greatest rights, for the Greastest good of the public. "when I type in Geicko, I dont want to see ads for somone else". Who the *!#@!!! CARES what you want? You USE googles serice. Google has MADE that service (and made it pretty damn good). For the most part, they can do whatever they want with it. There are limitations on Their rights, also. We will see wheter google settles, or if the courts decide that google can be held liable for trademark infringment, when one of their clients uses their service to Commit Trademark infringment (think, should a TV station be liable if one of their advertisers, on an ad that they broadcast commits trademark infringement). What you want Google to be free, all their source to be free, so you can use it any way you please? Get your head out of the sand. The world has to work. Ugh, whatever. Mostly Grow Up.

    38. Re:Explain this to me by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      And so long as no one ever tried to confuse the customers into thinking that those CK shirts were actually Armani, that would be perfectly fine. Might just mean that shoppers would stop using Macy's.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    39. Re:Explain this to me by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      But the wouldn't geico-compare.com be at fault and not Google? I think you will find that Geico finds BOTH ads to be unacceptable.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    40. Re:Explain this to me by generic-man · · Score: 1

      No. Google receives money in exchange for ads they post, and as such they can be asked to remove ads in violation of U.S. advertising laws. It's not like Slashdot, a free site where "comments are owned by the poster."

      If YANAL, PGTLS and CBL. TYVM.

      --
      For more information, click here.
    41. Re:Explain this to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Google was stupid enough to drop Geico's webpage as you suggest, I'd stop using Google completely. I'd also try to drum up support of making Google a utility like some misguided folks wanted a couple of years back now.

      Why? You're talking about altering page rankings deliberately *by the makers of the search engine. iow, this isn't a change in ranks due to methodology or algorithm changes, but blatant, spiteful changes of results.

      We had enough of those sort of antics and BS before Google came along--engines were skipping sites, altering page ranks, allowing search placement, etc. Google was one place that *didn't* do this, and you want to return to those sort of days???

      I'm appalled your posting is moderated as +5. It simply shows how people these days have just simply become Google apologists. Google was THE search engine to use both in terms of how they acted as well as the results. Given the past year, they quickly becoming a company that only has the latter in my book.

    42. Re:Explain this to me by davidology · · Score: 1

      I think the problem can be exemplified like this: Look at Tae Bo. Let's say Tae Bo spends $50 million per month on advertising. They've spent a small fortune building their brand and their trademark. Let's say "tae bo" is searched for 100,000 per month. Now I come along and make an exercise called "The Wookie." I spend $50 a month paying some kid to flyer cars in parking lots. With my advertising efforts, my product is only searched for 50 times a month. I get the idea, "Hey! I'll cheat and advertise on 'tae bo'" Part of the issue is now I am capitalizing on the good name of another trademark. Now, I can compete in ads and say "Compare The Wookie to Tae Bo." That's perfectly fair. That's what Coke and Pepsi do. Where it gets muddy is on trademark words because Johnny User wouldn't be searching for "tae bo" if it weren't for Tae Bo's millions of advertising dollars. I think there's the crux of the argument, and I see both sides. For me personally, I think for a brand to advertise on another company's trademark shows really bad form. I think it actually cheapens their own brand. If your product is good, you should stand on your own merits, but that's my personal opinion on it. Legally, who knows how it will shape up. Clearly, it's divided even in the legal system, and it's going to take a while before there's a hard conclusion.

  9. So Geico... by rahlquist · · Score: 3, Informative

    There is no such thing as bad publicity. Geico just got their advertising courtesy of Google and didn't even have to pay Google for it. Slick move.

    --
    Sick of stupidity? http://www.patentlystupid.com
    1. Re:So Geico... by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Wanna bet? I certainly am never buying more insurance from Geico so that they can continue with frivolous lawsuits using my money. You could argue that if the case got to court and they won, then the suit is not frivolous. However I think if you sue often enough you're bound to get a case in and win once in a while. Maybe this was just due to the law of averages dictating that they were bound to win something eventually. You may never win the lottery, but someone does.

        Oh my personal boycott not going to break them, but there IS such a thing as bad publicity. Not only did they lose a customer, their competitors are now guaranteed a customer.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    2. Re:So Geico... by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · · Score: 1

      Use State Farm.

      Yes, they aren't the cheapest. ;)

      But if you have a claim, they pay a fair amount and are efficient and courteous about it.

      --
      Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
    3. Re:So Geico... by enjo13 · · Score: 1

      Because lawyers are clearly much cheaper...:)

      --
      Turn s60 photos into awesome videos with mScrapbook for all S60 3rd edition phones!
    4. Re:So Geico... by linzeal · · Score: 1

      If I was Google I would just remove Geico.com from all search queries.

  10. Using competitors names by ChrisF79 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I just recently saw a commercial for some insurance company and noticed that they didn't use Geico's name. Instead, the guy says, "She had the gecko." I guess that insurance company made the right move if Geico is litigation happy, trying to protect their name.

    --
    Finance tutorials and more! Understandfinance
    1. Re:Using competitors names by arkanes · · Score: 4, Informative
      For exactly this reason, companies very rarely directly compare themselves to a competitor - even though it's within the ream of fair use of a trademark, nobody wants to litigate over a commercial. There's the secondary reason that they don't want to spend thier own money popularizing someone elses name brand, of course.

      That's why the "Pepsi Challenge" is between Pepsi and "some other drinks", or detergent is between whatever and "The market leading brand", etc.

    2. Re:Using competitors names by bluprint · · Score: 1

      I wonder why beer companies compare themsevles so much to a competitor (especially miller/bud). I don't think it's illegal. It may not be smart as far as adding to name recognition for th other guy...

      --
      A modern day witchhunt.
    3. Re:Using competitors names by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Wierd but true: some detergent ads don't name the leading brant because the leading brand is made by the same company (P&G makes both Tide and ABC).

      Wierder but still true: Tide detergent ads have, on occasion, compared Tide to the leading brand, but the leading brand is... Tide.

    4. Re:Using competitors names by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      beer companies compare themsevles so much to a competitor (especially miller/bud)

            I dunno I've never seen them compare themselves to a urinating horse, which pretty much sums up what American beer tastes like...

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    5. Re:Using competitors names by debraj · · Score: 1
      It would be safer to be a legal expert to comment on this. However, a few things come to mind:
      1. In the US, I have always seen ads that bash the competitor. Pepsi vs Coke, etc.
      2. No, not in all such ads have I seen a [* "Pepsi" is a registered TM of...]
      3. Since you cannot have a [* BlahBlah is a registered TM of...], this case should have been about setting the precedent on such matters with regard to online advertising. I think we just missed the bus here.
      4. I don't see how Geico stands to lose from all this, unless someone fraudulently enrolls me into an insurance product falsely claiming it to be Geico's. You would probably succeed if I were blind. In which case I wouldn't be driving.
      5. My common sense says that this ad should be permitted "Better than Geico's 15% savings". Hell, why not. If this is true, I want to know.
      6. What's the point of contextual intelligently purchased AdWords, if I cannot bring my product to the correct market segment triggered by reference to my competition.
      In summary, I feel Google is definitely not liable. Nor are its customers who purchased these words.

      If anything, the precedent that shall be set, should be a slap on the wrist.
      If anything, the precedent that is being set here is a step backwards in online marketing and advertising.

      PS: I typed in "Geico" in Google, but didn't get any sponsored ads that mentioned the name in the header or the body of the ad.
    6. Re:Using competitors names by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Americans don't drink horse piss, so we don't know any better.

    7. Re:Using competitors names by poopdeville · · Score: 1
      This is actually a long, convoluted story. The first brewery to market Budwieser was actually a Czech brewery. The German name for the city it's made is is Budweis, and Budweiser is the adjectival form. They've been making the beer since 1295 or so, and had a royal charter to do so since then.

      Anyway, Anheuser-Busch "imported" the recipe. Which is to say, they cloned the beer. Indeed, Miller and Schlitz made Budweisers -- until Miller was sued by Anheuser-Busch. Miller argued that Budweiser couldn't be a trademarked term because it is a style of beer. They lost, in the US anyway.

      There's been strong animosity since. Google up "Anheuser-Busch Miller lawsuit" and you'll find thousands of hits (which unfortunately makes finding references difficult). In any event, they do direct comparisons because they both have huge legal departments specifically for dealing with the other company.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    8. Re:Using competitors names by retinaburn · · Score: 1

      I have a feeling the reason for not naming a competitor is two-fold. One the statements they make are generally not exactly true, thus the tiny white print at the bottom that more explicitly describes the test. Second even if the statement were true at the time of the commercial, the advertiser might have to pull the commercial when it turns out to be no longer true.

      I have a feeling they can get around this by being a little vague 'other leading competitors', etc.

    9. Re:Using competitors names by iphayd · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's funny you mentioned Pepsi(TM), because they have a commercial running right now where they feature several pop machines, which are all clearly different iterations of Coke(TM)

    10. Re:Using competitors names by chooks · · Score: 0

      > Which is to say, they cloned the beer

      And rather poorly, at that. Further evidence of the introduction of noise in the cloning process, perhaps?

      There is no comparison between a Bud/Miller/etc... and a real pilsner beer...

      --
      -- The Genesis project? What's that?
    11. Re:Using competitors names by SpotBug · · Score: 1


      Pepsi and Coke have long-standing agreements allowing one another to mention the other's brand in their respective advertisements. It's rather brilliant. They've, together, made themselves the only two real players in the market.

      --
      cygnuhchur
    12. Re:Using competitors names by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      Of course.. being illegal to name the competitor gives them an advantage.

      You really thing they're using coke on the pepsi taste test? No, it's just some cheap supermarket crap... that's why they manage to get 80-90% of people liking pepsi.

      There are only about 3 companies making detergent (well, there are in the UK. Lever Bros, Procter&Gamble.. err.. make that 2 companies). All their comparisons are against different versions of their own product!

  11. GEICO by Kylere · · Score: 5, Informative

    I used GEICO when I was overseas because they provided insurance to soldiers, from 1991 to 2003 I used GEICO, then I had an accident and filed a claim.

    Their adjuster did not really even look at the vehicle and they only repaired the visible damage without even looking underneath the vehicle, when I griped to a person making a followup call, they fixed some of the issues and left the rest unrepaired. Then they would not renew my policy.

    I am not the only person they have done this to, they are hands down the worst insurance agency I have ever dealt with, and I am sure that my daring to complain is what lost my coverage. Now I have better coverage at lower rates with another firm.

    I hope this is reversed, because geeks do not let geeks use GEICO.

    1. Re:GEICO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Well, if they only repaired visible damage, and didn't look at the vehicle, I'm surprised anything got fixed at all.

      Proves Ostriches have the right idea.

    2. Re:GEICO by B'Trey · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is one of the key factors in insurance. How can company A afford to be cheaper than everyone else? Usually, by paying out fewer claims. One way to pay out fewer claims is to only insure people who are less likely to file a claim. The other way is to deny more claims. Do a bit of research. Look at the companies that claim they're cheaper than everyone else and see what percentage of claims filed they actually pay. What do you want insurance for? To meet the legal requirements? Or to protect yourself against loss? If the latter, do you really want to do business with a company that's going to fight tooth and nail against paying your claim when you need them?

      PS And I'm not just talking about Geico here. Do your own research on Geico and find out if they fit the profile I described, but do the same to the other insurance companies that brag about how cheap they are.

      --

      "The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.

    3. Re:GEICO by jtorkbob · · Score: 3, Informative

      When my wife was just 18 she had an accident, not her fault, that resulted in her truck being totaled. The claim was to be paid by Geico, and it was like pulling teeth. It literally took six months AFTER the adjuster came to get them to send us a check. Their check-writing-adjuster thought that she was young and naive and used every trick in the book to try and put her off - sent the check to the wrong address, forgot to sign it, wrong amount, etc.

      In the end I called and asked for his physical address. He gave it to me and asked why I needed it. I told him that my lawyer had asked me to get it. The next day, the check arrived via FedEx.

      Now I'm sure all insurance companies do this, but I can't imagine that it can be to such a degree. I have heartily encouraged others to consider their alternatives since then. And who can stand those damn ads?

      --
      AC: Only on slashdot... could the sentence "My hovercraft is full of eels." be moderated "+4, Insightful
    4. Re:GEICO by markov_chain · · Score: 1

      I was intrigued by saving money on my car insurance, so I gave them a call. That's when I found out they don't operate in Massachusetts.

      Oh well, insurance here is cheap enough already. ($600 a year for two cars).

      --
      Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
    5. Re:GEICO by instantgames · · Score: 3, Informative

      More on GEICO at this site's "Hall of Shame" http://www.badfaithinsurance.org/indexdetaillist.h tml

    6. Re:GEICO by FictionPimp · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I switched to AIG, they were cheaper for my 2 cars, and when my wife had a fender bender, they had the damage inspected by a shop of our choice (we picked the dealer) then sent out someone to evalutate the dealers quote. Then they let the dealer fix it. When the dealer found more damage after starting the repair, again they sent out a guy to evaluate, and paid for the extra repairs too. Best experiance I have ever had with an insurance company. From accident to getting the car back in our hands - 1 week.

    7. Re:GEICO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not cheap. That's a dollar a day just for the priviledge of having a car.

      Insurance should not be required, unless you have been found guilty of a moving violation within the last few years (i.e., speeding ticket or accident that was your fault).

    8. Re:GEICO by markov_chain · · Score: 1

      It's cheap compared to the $1800 a year for one car I used to pay in NY... granted it was a younger license but still.

      --
      Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
    9. Re:GEICO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I spoke with someone recently who had a friend who worked for Geico - so this is really heresay - but they said that Geico pays their agents a commission for only 3 years, after which the agent makes nothing on a customer. If this is true, then agents have no motivation to care for their customers after 3 years. Yeah, treat 'em like dirt and let them go... as an agent, I would be motived to keep signing up new people and not take care of existing customers.

    10. Re:GEICO by e40 · · Score: 1

      You are forgetting one thing: other expenses. GEICO spends a buttload of money on advertising. I can't watch a show on TV in the states without seeing one of their f'ing commercials. I don't see commercials for very many other insurers. How many more claims could they cover if they scaled back the ads? I'd bet a LOT.

    11. Re:GEICO by noidentity · · Score: 1

      "I am sure that my daring to complain is what lost my coverage."

      You complained about them not covering the damage, so you only lost the empty promise of coverage.

    12. Re:GEICO by bluGill · · Score: 1

      Geico sells direct, so they don't pay commissions in general. Their operators are paid by the hour (They have not outsourced to India, so the English is pretty good).

      What you describe is how most insurance companies work. The first year (I'm not sure what the scale and timeframe is) your premiums go to the agent. After the insurance company takes them.

      Some agents will switch you around every few years to get their commissions. A few will (as you describe) treat you like dirt after they have you. Most know that your situation will change over time, and thus you will often change insurance anyway. Therefore if they find you good rates, and treat you well, even after the sale, you will be back again latter. (not just for the car, but also the house, and perhaps a business venture)

    13. Re:GEICO by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      PS And I'm not just talking about Geico here. Do your own research on Geico and find out if they fit the profile I described, but do the same to the other insurance companies that brag about how cheap they are.

      And don't forget that customer satisfaction rates are useless. If company A (again, not specifically GEICO) were to handle claims poorly, then drop the person that filed the claim, then the person is not a dissatisfied customer, as they are no longer a customer. If you can track everyone you screw over, then ban them, then you will have the near perfect customer satisfaction scores that some companies report. That doesn't mean they aren't planning on screawing over every customer, that just means they haven't had a chance to do so, yet.

    14. Re:GEICO by oliphaunt · · Score: 1
      I think you're confusing "car insurance company" with "auto shop." One of them fixes your car, the other one pays to have your car fixed. If the adjuster never looks at your car, your auto shop should repaint the whole damn thing with purple sparkle-coat and install a new stereo, hydraulics, tinted windows, and anything else you want- and send Geico the bill for it.

      If the shop didn't fix your car, you need a new auto shop, not a new insurance company.

      --




      Humpty Dumpty was pushed.
    15. Re:GEICO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When my wife was just 18 she had an accident

      Soon-Yi?

    16. Re:GEICO by jtorkbob · · Score: 1

      Heh, no, she is a few months older than I am in fact - we married young.

      --
      AC: Only on slashdot... could the sentence "My hovercraft is full of eels." be moderated "+4, Insightful
    17. Re:GEICO by mrscorpio · · Score: 1

      I was formerly an insurance agent.

      I am not going to say that Kylere's story is completely false, but I can almost with certainty that he is not giving the full story. More than likely (I apologize if this is not true), he has had more tickets and/or accidents than he is claiming. Knowing how GEICO works from being a policyholder myself in the past and from current employees, he probably had a "preferred" risk policy, and the accident meant he no longer qualified for this type of policy, probably being offered a "standard" or "high risk" (the former more likely than the latter) instead. Depending on his state of residence and if he was at the time a "preferred" risk policy holder, he may have had an "accident forgiveness" provision applied due to his 5+ year tenure.

      I cannot speak for his claims experience, as I never filed one. And I don't doubt he was able to get a cheaper rate somewhere else, as no one company is the cheapest for everybody due to differently weighted underwriting factors, claims experience, etc. There are too many things that don't add up with the story to make it 100% true as it is written though, sorry.

    18. Re:GEICO by Montag2k · · Score: 1

      If you're in the military or have a relative in the military I'd highly reccommend USAA as an insurance company. They're not really out to make a buck - in fact, they send you a check at the end of the year refunding some of the money that you've paid them, based on their profit this year.

      I've only had to file a claim once and it was for my renter's insurance, but they were just great. The auto insurance is similar.

      While on the topic - check out their free checking accounts where you can use any ATM in the country and they pay you for the service fees that those ATMs charge you.

      -Montag
    19. Re:GEICO by mrscorpio · · Score: 1

      In the case of companies like GEICO and to some degree Progressive, a lot of their savings are obtained by doing little to no business through brick-and-mortar agencies...GEICO's is almost 100% through the phone and internet. This has its downsides too, as some have noted they have to spend more on advertising and a bad claims experience in an area/over a period of time will still bite them. I'm not saying your points aren't valid (they are), but style of business is also an important factor in determining which insurance company is right for you.

    20. Re:GEICO by mrscorpio · · Score: 1

      FYI, GEICO, along with many other companies, do not choose to do business in MA because they do not allow insurers to use their own criteria for rates.

    21. Re:GEICO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Check out the stats for yourself and your state. Illinois (mine) e.g.:

      http://www.idfpr.com/DOI/Complaints/complaint_rati o_links03.asp

      Geico does better most years than Allstate (my provider).

      What I've learned is to NEVER EVER buy a new vehicle. Not only do you get that "drove it off the lot" depreciation but if you are in an accident, most states (coverages) do not cover the "diminished value" due to the accident.

    22. Re:GEICO by mrscorpio · · Score: 1

      Having formerly worked there 1 1/2 years ago...unless it's changed recently, you get a bonus for meeting that year's sales goal (in other words, bonus starts at a certain point and increases for sales beyond that point) for policy across a month, based on (I think) 60 day retention. So if I sell a policy on 8/1 and that policy is still on the books as of 10/1, that policy counts as a sale toward my bonus. Sales agents also don't get credit for sales where they do the whole app with you, but you need to call back later either with some trivial info and/or if you're not ready to make a decision...the rep who takes the payment gets the sale and the agents are not given direct lines to have people call them back directly. The top sales agents in the company (company-wide, not like a 1-2-3 from each office) get to go on an annual trip. There is also bonus in the way of annual profit sharing, of which half is put into a 401k and half is cash, and you also get a share of forfeited 401k dollars because they use the worst vesting schedule legally possible (0-0-20-40-60-80-100). This is usually a hefty chunk of change, like 10-30% in recent years. Consequently, the match is low (2% as I remember). The hourly wage is near the top when comparing to other call center jobs, but the total compensation package probably doesn't match what a moderately successful independant agent would make in the field.

      So yeah, that's GEICO's compensation in summary, at least as it was when I worked there (until Feb 04).

      Also, they can't outsource to India, because you have to be able to obtain a resident's license for the state in which you operate, which means you (by definition) have to be a US Citizen. The securities industry, of which I am now a part, does this too. I wonder what it would be like if the tech industry did this?

    23. Re:GEICO by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      It could be the case that the insurance commanded that he take the car to their "preferred" body shop. Or, in other words, the cheapest and worst one they could find.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  12. Irony? by IorDMUX · · Score: 4, Funny

    And... and there was a Google AdSense advertisment showing on this very comment page.

    Why, oh /., why?

    --
    >> Standing on head makes smile of frown, but rest of face also upside down.
  13. I also object.... by theGreater · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... to corporations not protecting me enough. Let's pretend for a second that this case did -not- involve Teh Intarweb; which scenario is then more likely:

    GEICO sues the Wall Street Journal, because Progressive places an ad in said WSJ invoking GEICO's name without the proper attribution (usually a "* Blah is trademark and copyright of CompanyCo").

    -or-

    GEICO sues Progressive for placing said ad in the WSJ and thereby diluting the GEICO trademark.

    -theGreater.
    1. Re:I also object.... by Alex+P+Keaton+in+da · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't this be similar to an insurance company taking out an ad that said Geico with a phone number, but having the phone number go to another company than Geico? Or am I wrong (I am seriously wondering... Please don't be rude)

      --
      And All I Ask is a Tall Ship And a Star to Steer Her By
    2. Re:I also object.... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      A better analogy would be the WSJ running an article about GIECO and placing an ad by a competitor in the middle of the story. In this case, I don't possibly see how a court could regard that as wrong.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    3. Re:I also object.... by MentalMooMan · · Score: 1

      You are wrong. The part of the lawsuit that google lost was the part about an ad from another company mentioning geico. It was something like 'We are much better than geico!'.
      The GP was right.

      --
      43rd Law of Computing:
      Anything that can go wr
      fortune: Segmentation violation -- Core Dumped
  14. What? by Unsus · · Score: 1

    Geico is claiming that Google violated their trade mark rights, but that doesn't really make any sense. It is rather obvious that if a car insurance company wants their competitors' names to trigger their ad, that it is completely within their rights. I wish the article was more specific on what law they claimed Google was violating.

    1. Re:What? by suspected · · Score: 1

      So next time you use Google to research on a Benz, you don't mind getting ads for a Toyota instead? Despite what many believe, Trademark laws were originally intended to protect the consumer. Typing in one company and getting ads for another is outside the scopes of any search engine. If Google was more blunt and had their system work so that every time you type "Benz," you automatically get directed to a Toyota website, it would be more clear to everyone why such a scenario is wrong on a legal level.

  15. Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Kudos to the guy in the other story that said who cares as long as the judges stick to their rulings.

  16. Simple Solution by Cytlid · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Let's see... Geico had a fit because one of their competitors "bought" the word Geico as an adword so their ad would show up when they search Geico on Google? Is this correct?

    Easy way to fix that, take all references of "Geico" out of Google.

    On one hand, I can understand where Geico is coming from, but on the other hand, advertisers use their competitors names' in their ads all the time. Can State Farm sue because Geico says I can save 15% off their price? Where does this end? Are websites that compare prices illegal?

    I can see if you're avoiding mentioning someone else's trademark in your ad. But this boarders on dictating what you can and cannot search for.

    --
    FLR
    1. Re:Simple Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Are websites that compare prices illegal?

      These aren't competing companies though.

    2. Re:Simple Solution by wasexton · · Score: 1

      As far as I can tell, the legal issue here wouldn't matter if it were a competing company or not. If say, PriceGrabber or PriceWatch were to use the company name in their paid advertising, then GEICO could just as easily sue them.

    3. Re:Simple Solution by MentalMooMan · · Score: 1

      Actually, over here in the UK, Tesco (a supermarket chain) is advertising having a website where you check the prices of items both from tesco and other supermarkets such as Sainsbury's.

      --
      43rd Law of Computing:
      Anything that can go wr
      fortune: Segmentation violation -- Core Dumped
  17. Article is unclear! by Anakron · · Score: 1

    First it says that NOW "Google only takes action when a trade marked term is used in the text of an ad - i.e. the trade marked term can still trigger the ad" A few sentences onward, and there's this: there had been a breach of the insurance firm's trade mark rights "solely with regard to those sponsored links that use GEICO's trade marks in their headings or text." So does Google use Geico's trademarks in the ad text and headers or not?

    --
    There are 11 types of people. Those who understand binary, those who don't and those who are sick of this lame joke.
    1. Re:Article is unclear! by wasexton · · Score: 1

      I do not think that the article is well written but what they are trying to say is that it was alright for Google to sell the keyword GEICO to trigger a paid ad. However, if the ad actually contained the text "GEICO" in the ad, such as "We are cheaper than GEICO", that is where the court had issues. So, no, this does not at first glance appear to contradict the previous ruling.

    2. Re:Article is unclear! by FlunkedFlank · · Score: 1
      Yeah, I agree, this is confusing. I'm guessing it means that they brought the suit before the policy change, or that they are suing for damages from infrginements before the change?

      If so, then this "news" is way less important than it seems. The big news would be if they were forced to change their policy that lets advertisers use trademarked search terms.

  18. Judge bribed by M$? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful
    How did google lose when 99% of slashdot users *KNEW* they would win? I mean, we felt it in our bones!

    The judge must have been paid off by M$. That's the only conclusion a rational person could come to in this case.

    I'll be monitoring this discussion; surely it will be a sneak peek at what's to come when SCO wins their case against IBM.

  19. The right decision IMO by Yahweh+Doesn't+Exist · · Score: 2, Insightful

    this is using another company's name to advertise your products. wrong.

    now if something could be done about those sites that have lines of product names in "invisible" text just to bump their rankings...

    and while we're at it, how about offering the option to have user-defined filters always applied, for example unless I say otherwise I'd always like my Google searches to reject all sites that contain the phrase "compare prices for" .

    1. Re:The right decision IMO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The right decision IMO... this is using another company's name to advertise your products. wrong.

      So why didn't Geico sue the company that used their name, rather than Google?

      If I ran an Ad for SpiffyCola on the radio, using Coke's name as a comparison, would you sue the FCC for licensing the frequency to the radio station that aired it?

    2. Re:The right decision IMO by Irish_Samurai · · Score: 1
      You can already do this.

      Lets say I'm searching for peaches. Put peaches -"compare prices for" in the search box. It's not perfect, but it should filter alot of the crap results.

    3. Re:The right decision IMO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this is using another company's name to advertise your products. wrong.

      How could it be wrong? The way Google does it, precedent says it's not legally wrong, and I don't see how it could be morally wrong.

      I don't understand your point of view. Are you implying that Google has achieved a monopoly on internet searches, and therefore should be subject to special rules of Equal Access?

      Please clarify why you believe it might be "wrong" for Google to program their own ad servers any way they see fit.

    4. Re:The right decision IMO by Yahweh+Doesn't+Exist · · Score: 1

      yes I mean that I should only type it once in my preferences and then not have to type it every time.

    5. Re:The right decision IMO by Yahweh+Doesn't+Exist · · Score: 1

      the way I see it is that if you search for company X and you get info about company Y then that is not right, but there is a point that company Y may be to blame rather than Google. but if company X complains to Google and Google does nothing, they too are at fault.

      I don't know what monopoly has to do with it. if you made a phone book with company Y's phone number underneath the name of company X then that is wrong regardless of whether your phone book is a monopoly or even if it isn't even the most popular.

    6. Re:The right decision IMO by Dammital · · Score: 1
      "... using another company's name to advertise your products. wrong."
      I'd like to see this extended to political campaigns. Imagine how much more pleasant campaign season would be if political ads were prohibited from mentioning the competition? No more negative ads, no more mudslinging, a much improved s/n ratio.
    7. Re:The right decision IMO by bentcd · · Score: 1

      Yay! Analogy contest! :-)
      The case that Google won is more akin to having an ad for Company Y on the same page as the (correct) listing for Company X. This is entirely legal and even common in the case of Yellow Pages (since competitors tend to be listed right next to eachother).

      --
      sigs are hazardous to your health
    8. Re:The right decision IMO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if you search for company X and you get info about company Y then that is not right

      So by "right" you mean "accurate"?

      If so, I may now see where you're coming from. I.e. if Google represents themselves as being an accurate index of the internet, then you search for one thing but get something else. Certainly I'm all in favor of accuracy, and would prefer to see fewer ads.

      What I meant by "monopoly" is that once a company achieves monopoly status, they become held to different standards. A local phone company can steer all the long distance calls to a carrier which is most profitable to (or is the parent company of) the local telco - UNLESS the telco has a monopoly, as was the case when Judge Green forced the breakup of AT&T. We saw a similar issue years later with Microsoft's bundling of Internet Explorer. Many of the aggressive marketing tactics Microsoft was using would have been perfectly legal for a small company to do, yet when performed by Microsoft constituted illegal maintenance of a monopoly and abuses of monopoly power. I was just wondering if that's where you were coming from with Google, since they've been so dominant, people may legitimately be having higher expectations of Google than other companies.

    9. Re:The right decision IMO by Yahweh+Doesn't+Exist · · Score: 1

      I understand what you mean about monopoly status dictating tactics but that's not where I'm coming from.

      I'm coming from the point of view that all advertising is subject to laws about accuracy so people should expect accurate results no matter what the size of the Google. this point isn't perfectly clear though since there's a difference between an ad for Y stimulated by searching for X and an ad actually claiming to be X.

      also there's the trademark issue. adwords means that company Y is effectively advertising under the name of company X. I don't think you should be able to buy adwords which are trademarks of a competitor. it is wrong imo (and now the law's). isn't that the whole point of a trade-mark - it's used to identify YOUR company and not someone else's?

    10. Re:The right decision IMO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I understand you now, and thanks for clarifying. It seems that due to some gray areas the practice might have been legal, but nonetheless the practice constitutes a misrepresentation on some level, and so it ought to be illegal if it wasn't already.

      I like this point of view actually. Judicial Activism, if that's what it is, is not really such a bad thing. It breathes a little much-needed humanity back into our legal system and helps resolve these kinds of gray areas.

    11. Re:The right decision IMO by Irish_Samurai · · Score: 1
      If you were the coding type, you could write yourself a search page that will add that criteria to the search term using the google api.

      Hmmmm, come to think of it...

      How difficult would it be to include funtionality in the Google toolbar for mozilla that allows you to apend search criteria to all searches through the toolbar. Negative searches and inurl specifications?
    12. Re:The right decision IMO by andrewman327 · · Score: 1
      Imagine how much more pleasant campaign season would be if political ads were prohibited from mentioning the competition? No more negative ads, no more mudslinging, a much improved s/n ratio.

      That sounds a lot like some third party ads from last year's elections. If memory serves me right, those were some of the most radical.

      Anyway, I wonder why employees of Geico were searching their own company's name on Google.

      --
      Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
  20. Kill the Gecko! j/k by thatedeguy · · Score: 1

    Seems a little drastic to me. Think that it will open up Google to a lot of cases just like that where someone is trying to get that little extra advertisement in. But the problem is that Geico paid for the advertisement and other people paid for it as well. Same thing happens in the Yellow Book(tm), businesses pay to be in it and Geico isn't the only one under Insurance. Sure if it were Geico insurance header then they might be, but there are still other insurance places and it used to be a free market. used to be.

  21. Strange. by autopr0n · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    If I were google, I would have started the company in another country. Hopefully one small enough that I'd basicaly control the economy.

    Might have been hard to get people move there, though. Ah wel.

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
    1. Re:Strange. by Nuclear+Elephant · · Score: 1

      I hear the citizens of Qatar are quite fond of Americans. And fully automatic weapons are legal. It could make for a fun place to relocate to, especially if Google offered employee perks like company tanks and pot in the caffeteria.

    2. Re:Strange. by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · · Score: 1

      In about 5 to 10 years, Google will be big enough to control the US economy. :)

      (I can always hope)

      --
      Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
  22. Stupid, arbitrary feel-good restrictions by ShatteredDream · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There is no good reason why someone shouldn't be able to run an ad that says, "we're cheaper than Geico, click here to find out how much you'll save by switching FROM Geico." Society is better off when we take off these arbitrary restrictions that keep cut-throat competition to a minimum by not allowing competitors to easily target each other. If they were trying to pass themselves off as Geico, that's one thing, but trademarks should not be an issue otherwise.

    This is why I hate lawyers. To anyone else, most cases would need last only a few hours. Then you have the lawyers who need to go through elaborate procedures, arguing technicalities, making mountains out of mole hills and all of that happy horse shit. What we need is a jury power called, "dismiss with extreme prejudice." If a company gets a few cases dismissed under those terms, then the court begins to charge a non-refundable fee everytime it has to review a case brought by a company or individual. Every honest victory then counts as a positive mark against those bad marks and when they're 1:1 the fee stops being charged.

    Those big on law theory wring their hands about stuff like people taking it to the streets. Well here's a novel suggestion, if the company abuses the courts like this, gets censured and then takes matters into its own hands... the government should storm its offices with police in full ninja gear, slam the people responsible head first into the wall while hand-cuffing them and charge them with murder in the first degree then give them a firing squad if convicted. If the government backs up the censure at every step of the way, the courts may have a chance to start reverting back to respectable institutions that serve the public rather than the loudest plaintiffs.

    1. Re:Stupid, arbitrary feel-good restrictions by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      even better. Give everyone who's been screwed by whatever big, evil, megacorp it is this week a samurai sword, chuck a few flash grenades into the company HQ and let them run riot.

      --
      FGD 135
    2. Re:Stupid, arbitrary feel-good restrictions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, Anakin, but in the real world not everyone holds your opinion, which is why we have courts so things can be discussed in detail.

    3. Re:Stupid, arbitrary feel-good restrictions by forand · · Score: 1

      I would agree with your idea but there is one major problem: Joe Schmoe cannot afford to pay anywhere near the amount of penilty that would be required to have a chilling effect on large corporations. Thus we would end up with a system where once a large corporation brought up a suit against a Joe Schmoe, Schmoe would be forced to settle.

      The penilty would have to be proportional to total income, before taxes, costs, etc.. Then it might be fair.

      But that is just me.

    4. Re:Stupid, arbitrary feel-good restrictions by kansas1051 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Perhaps if you read the judge's opinion or any of the briefs, or anything else for that matter, you wouldn't get so agitated and make ridiculous statements. But that would make you one of "those big on law theory" people you so despise.

      That being said, the problem here isn't that a competitor cant make an ad saying "I'm cheaper than Geico", because they can provided there is no likelihood of confusion. (i.e. Subway TVs ads currently use both McDonald's and BigMac trademarks legally because there is no confusion that the ads are for McDonalds).

      Google's problem is that **they** created a "likelihood of confusion" when sometime types in "GEICO", sees a first link that says "Cheap Insurance", and clicks on it. Users (dumb ones admittedly) might think that the link they are going to goes to GEICO because it is displayed first (because the competitor paid google lots of money) and they clicked on the first/highlighted link.

      Its not much different that if I opened a store with "McDonalds is good" on the front (a statement of opinion protected by the first amendment), and then sold people Wendy's when they came inside (thereby deceiving customers). The reason for trademark law is to protect people from being deceived as to the source of the goods (which you would have to read something to find out, and thus be "big on law theory").

    5. Re:Stupid, arbitrary feel-good restrictions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn, I thought you meant that when a case is dismissed with extreme prejudice the jury would take the lawyer out back and shoot them. It might slow down the pace of litigation and make lawyers a little more careful about who they represent and how they represent them.

    6. Re:Stupid, arbitrary feel-good restrictions by jjr1 · · Score: 1

      Why not just adopt the British system and charge the losing party for the winning party's lawyer bills? If you know you're guilty, you won't drag it out and increase what you'll have to pay, and if you're truly in the right then you will be able to fight it through because your lawyer will be more willing to fight it out if it is very likely his work will be covered by the other party if you're unable. Seems to me that it makes more system to actually fix the dynamics of the system than to apply some bandage that may work for awhile, but probably won't.

      --
      Best Trivia answer ever... Name the largest aquatic man eater... Contestant: Tsunami
    7. Re:Stupid, arbitrary feel-good restrictions by cliffski · · Score: 1

      Man I agree 100% you are ym new hero.
      This ruling sucks, not least because I use adwords, and I Do Deliberately target my competitors. I make a game that will appeal to Civilisation fans, so if you search for some of the keywords used by those people, you will see my ad. This is commonly known as 'the free market'. If Civ3 is a better game than mine, they will get the sale, if my game rules and theirs sucks (I can dream) then my ad earns me money and the best man has won. This is the whole foundation of the free market. Letting a bunch of overpaid legal jerks push this ruling is one more nail in the coffin of freee competition, and another sign that its the lawyer, not the customer who is king.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
  23. Burden by bigattichouse · · Score: 1

    This should place the burden on the USPTO or copyright office or whatever.. if all online companies must comply with this sort of precendence, then there must be a web service or something that will allow website the ability to search for trademarks. This of course, would have to be corporate backed, if there were to be anything resembling snappyness to the whole thing, which just makes the whole matter that much messier.

    --
    meh
  24. Repeat offenders by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google lost a similar suit against Louis Vuitton a while back. They need to get their act together before they lose their sweetheart status.

    1. Re:Repeat offenders by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · · Score: 1

      That was in France, which is a lot less free than the US when it comes to censorship.

      (whether it is advertising, WWII memorabilia, etc).

      --
      Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
  25. Compared to our own brand by Mr+Guy · · Score: 1

    The fine print on those adds blow my mind all the time. I believe it was an extra strength tylenol commercial that touted twice as much medicine as the leading brand, where the comparison was made against their own normal strength variety. To me, that's a bit like saying, Buy two BMWs because it's twice as much legroom as one BMW!

  26. I'm surprised they resorted to litigation by white1827 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I use Adwords to advertise for my company. I'm kind of surprised Geico had to resort to litigation. We have the same issue all the time. Google quickly and efficiently removes the ads that use our trademark when we follow their trademark complaint procedure.

    1. Re:I'm surprised they resorted to litigation by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      use your trademark in an ad, or are bought to trigger on your trademark?

      I'd say that that is two different things.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    2. Re:I'm surprised they resorted to litigation by jerryodom · · Score: 1

      I agree with you there. The judge stated the likelyhood of confusion there and gave them 30 days to reach a compromise. GEICO probably has a pack of lawyers they've unleashed upon the world. Once unleashed lawyers tend to milk all possible monies from both their clients and any possible targets without any regard for sensible compromise.

      --
      For some reason I refuse to use either spell check or the spacebar properly.
    3. Re:I'm surprised they resorted to litigation by white1827 · · Score: 1

      If a trademark is used in their ad, it is removed as it infringes on our trademark. If it is triggered on our trademarked name, we have no recourse.
      It is no different than a bottle of Tide being on a shelf at the store next to a bottle of Cheer.

  27. Future problems by Spacejock · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What's to stop large companies trademarking all the words in their industry? If that happens, competitors couldn't place a Google Adwords advert using those terms, effectively shutting newcomers out of the market.

    Sure, people could sue and counter-sue, but large companies have deeper pockets.

    1. Re:Future problems by bentcd · · Score: 1

      Trademarks aren't worth much unless they get held up in court and
      1) defending every single word in the technical dictionary is just too expensive,
      2) you can't really trademark real words and
      3) most of them would have gotten thrown out anyway unless you could document that you actually use them a lot.

      --
      sigs are hazardous to your health
    2. Re:Future problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's to stop large companies trademarking all the words in their industry?

      uh... that you can't trademark a dictionary word?

    3. Re:Future problems by evilviper · · Score: 1
      What's to stop large companies trademarking all the words in their industry?

      Umm, trademark law.

      You can't just trademark any word you chose.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  28. Re:sorry you lost, but I have really good news! by BlackCobra43 · · Score: 1

    I made that very joke half an hour ago and almost got modded down to hell as an overrated Troll.
    What do you hope to achieve here?

    --
    I never spellcheck and I freely admit it. Save your karma for more worthwhile "lol erorrs" replies
  29. Actually, I think this ruling is not that bad by FearUncertaintyDoubt · · Score: 3, Insightful

    According to the article, the ruling just says that Google can't use GEICO in the actual text of the ad. Trademark infringment is about confusion -- would having GEICO in the text of the ad lead someone to believe that it was an ad for GEICO? Quite possibly.

  30. What this means for Adwords users by myared · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Adwords Marketing News posted about this a couple days ago. They analyzed what this really means for people who typically advertise on other trademark terms. So much is uncertain with the court systems, anything can happen.
    "Google's AdWords underwent a policy change in April 2004. Until then Google had respected requests from companies that asked it to prevent their marks from being available for sponsorship. Now Google only takes action when a trade marked term is used in the text of an ad - i.e. the trade marked term can still trigger the ad. ... According to GEICO, the court has stayed the trial for 30 days to give the parties an opportunity to settle. If the parties do not settle, the trial will continue on the question of damages and on the issue of who is liable: Google or Google's advertisers."
    You can bet more lawsuits are coming soon. Full article: http://marketingnewsblog.adwordstraining.org/adwor ds-lawsuit
  31. Someone did this to me once. by Stonent1 · · Score: 1

    I have a website about upgrading Dell C-Series laptops and someone used my username "Stonent" as an Adword for a laptop repair service. I was irritated but after about a month the ad went away.

  32. Re:sorry you lost, but I have really good news! by Fishstick · · Score: 1

    Well, in the first place, before reading comments I searched the page for 'good news' to see if someone else had already done this as it was the first thing I thought of -- there wasn't one so I did it.

    In the second place, you got a +5 so why are you griping?

    In the third place, mine runs closer to the geico ads.

    > What do you hope to achieve here?

    Achieve? Hey man, I'm just posting comments, you know? If it gets modded down, so be it. What's _your_ deal?

    --

    There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
    Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.

  33. Re:Not funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So easy, even an Anonymous Coward could do it!

    "Did you just hear what he said!"

  34. Unfair Comparisons by SeanDuggan · · Score: 1
    Yeah, or the toilet paper rolls advertising "lasts 30% longer!" when they're using single-ply instead of double-ply. I'm just waiting for someone to start advertising food having, "less fat per serving than our competitor" and we find that they're advertising "a serving" as being half a chip.

    Slashdot: More healthful than a stick in the eye!

    --
    This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
  35. Re:sorry you lost, but I have really good news! by BlackCobra43 · · Score: 1

    I was curious as to how you could forget to check the very first comment. It's okay.

    --
    I never spellcheck and I freely admit it. Save your karma for more worthwhile "lol erorrs" replies
  36. it's all in how you use Google by notnAP · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I understand the "we're better than Geico" implications... how can you stop people from looking for instances like that, even if it's a trademarked name you are looking for?


    But then again, people use Google like a phone book nowadays. Typing in Geico is a way to quickly find their web site. I myself do this quite a bit when searching for sites whose domain name approximates but is not a perfect match for the company name. In that way, it more closely approximates a dns search than a word search. In this light, I can understand the ruling.


    I'm torn between the two viewpoints. It's a cultural issue, it seems to me. How is Google used? Is it more like a research tool (in which case I don't agree with the ruling) or a directory assistance tool (in which case I do)?

    1. Re:it's all in how you use Google by jjr1 · · Score: 1

      Does Google even have a responsibility to link to Geico if the name 'Geico' is typed in? As a private company, shouldn't they be able to show whatever result they want?

      --
      Best Trivia answer ever... Name the largest aquatic man eater... Contestant: Tsunami
  37. Absolutely by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 1
    Easy way to fix that, take all references of "Geico" out of Google.

    Yeah, I'd give 'em the CNet treatment. Google effectively gives away billions in free advertising because they'd prefer customer goodwill to having "bought" results. If I were google, I just might de-list companies that sue like that. Want to make sure you don't illegally use their copyright. As far as I can tell, the decision of the "Search King" case gives them that right.

  38. Insurance Isn't by drewzhrodague · · Score: 1

    I am kinda disgusted with insurance in general. I had Geico myself, and when vandals payed my Subaru a visit, I had to pay for the repair myself. The (expensive) cheapest plan I could get from them would not cover the damage.

    So I switched insurance companies, bumped up the plan just to cover glass, and skimped on as much else as I could, to keep my insurance bill down. Now, I pay more than one of my coworkers does, and he has two cars and two people on the policy, and his policy covers damage and far more than my insurance plan does.

    My uncle, who died a couple of months ago in a motorcycle accident which was not his fault, will not be receiving any money from the insurance companies. He's dead, and his family are missing that income, and no income from the insurance.

    I own my car (finally), an 8 year-old partially chewed Subaru. It isn't even a nice car. This pisses me off. I wish I wasn't forced by law to pay money to a company which does nothing for that money I pay them. Health insurance is the same thing -- we all pay, but you can't use the service. Bastards.

    --
    Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
    1. Re:Insurance Isn't by ptbarnett · · Score: 1
      Now, I pay more than one of my coworkers does, and he has two cars and two people on the policy, and his policy covers damage and far more than my insurance plan does.

      He's probably married and a few years older than you. Car insurance rates for single males are higher than for any other class. Your rates will drop when you turn 25 (mine dropped by almost 50%) and again when you turn 30, if you don't get married before then.

      I wish I wasn't forced by law to pay money to a company which does nothing for that money I pay them.

      You are required to have liability insurance, which covers damage to other people and their cars when you are at fault. Nothing else is required, at least in my state.

      If you are carrying any kind of collision or damage insurance on an 8-year car that has little residual value, you are wasting your money. The premiums were priced to cover the average value over the typical life of the car, starting from when it was new.

      Financial institutions generally require that the owner carry collision insurance to protect the bank's interest in the vehicle. But, once the car is paid off, you have to ask yourself: I'm only going to get the wholesale value of the car if it's a complete loss. Is the additional premium worth it?

    2. Re:Insurance Isn't by FictionPimp · · Score: 1

      In some states (such as indiana) you can bond out of the insurance requirment by paying a bond at the county/city building. I know of 2 people who (have claimed to) have done this. It is an expensive bond, but is not nearly as expensive of paying for min coverage for a lifetime of driving. Be warned though, if you do get in an accident (that is your fault), and the bond does not cover all the damages/bills, you will get sued. You can also get min coverage directly from the state in indiana at a much lower cost (or so I've been told) then normal insurance comapanys if you are high risk. So check the laws of your state and see what you can find.

    3. Re:Insurance Isn't by drewzhrodague · · Score: 1

      For contrast, I am 31 and unmarried. I also drive properly.

      Unfortunately, I think that living in Boston, and not paying my parking tickets ontime -- it is treated as a moving violation, because they yank your license, registration, and unregister you to vote when this happens. Bastards!

      --
      Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
    4. Re:Insurance Isn't by Lost+Race · · Score: 1

      In Washington State you can only legally self-insure if you have a "fleet" of more than 25 vehicles.

  39. Those ads are weird. by game+kid · · Score: 1

    They are geared towards certain words, but sometimes they just weird out and say things like "Free slashdot.* 100% guarantee--Download your own slashdot now!" I wouldn't be surprised if GEICO was complaining when it was just faulty substitution on the ad's part.

    Maybe GEICO are confusing "sale of trademarks to competitors" with horrible fill-in-the-blank results like "Get your own free GEICO on Ebay! aff."...or did I miss something? I guess the two aren't mutex...

    *maybe that exact word doesn't do that, but I digress.

    --
    You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
  40. Change of terms of use by jurt1235 · · Score: 1

    Google will most likely just change it terms of use, so that next time the advertiser will be sued instead of them.

    The small print text adds in newspapers with the same kind of expressions do not get the newspaper sued. Probably Google should talk with the Sun or something for their terms of use.

    --

    My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
  41. Don't be a fool... of course there's bad publicity by postbigbang · · Score: 1

    This isn't about publicity, this is about competition and fair use of trademarks. They could do much better on commercials rather than lawyers. And until trademark law is changed, using them in your context without permission is a violation of trademark law. That's the crux of the case.

    If you believe any publicity is good, then why did McDonald's clean up their act....why did Microsoft actually pay (if pitiable) attention to security? I suppose you code in VB, too...

    --
    ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
  42. Slashdot by dotpavan · · Score: 2, Funny
    Slashdot: news for nerds, stuff that matters, now even better than Cnet, Register and Wired.com

    Statutory Warning: Cnet, Register and Wired are TM of the respective owners, and were used to beef up the ranking and get increased attention.

  43. GEICO should not be going after Google by flajann · · Score: 2, Interesting
    GEICO should go after the individal insurance companies using their trademarks, not Google, which is simply a conduit for commerce.

    There is a potential for a chilling effect on online ads. Perhaps GEICO has stiffed a few of its clients, for instance, and I might want to do a web site on that. Would I be prohibited from using text like "GEICO Stiffed Clients" in the text of the ad?

    Good bye free speech...

  44. Kudos, GEICO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thank you!

  45. Other way arrond? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shouldn't these two rulings be fliped?

    Imagine for a second that your a small business with a small store somewhere and on either side of your store are stores that rent out their space where companies can put huge ads for themselves. You would be losing customers that specificly came looking for you, if the bigger company could pay more they could get even more advertising.

    Now whats wrong with using their name to compare your product in a advertisement? In America aren't we taught that competition is how a capitalistic society works? Then how can we compare and contrast between services if we can't even figure out the name of the other company?!

  46. Advertising Technique by LordKazan · · Score: 1

    For most products mentioning your competetor is a Bad Thing(TM) because it also puts their brandname into the customers brain when it should just be yours

    --
    If you cannot keep politics out of your moderation remove yourself from the Mod Lottery.. NOW!
    1. Re:Advertising Technique by AstroDrabb · · Score: 1

      To me that depends on how the ad is done. For example, I recently watched an ad for SubWay(tm). In the ad, that Gerrid (name?) guy has some Buger King(tm) sandwiches next to a SubWay(tm) sub. He states that the BK burger has like 50g of fat while the SubWay(tm) sub has 6. I know that made me not want to eat any BK (or McD's) for a long time. I have actully been eating more SubWay(tm) now.

      --
      If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
      it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
  47. not a reversal by cahiha · · Score: 4, Informative
    This is a reversal for Google based on an earlier story.

    No, it's not a reversal. The court decided on one situation that had been left open by the earlier ruling.

    Apparently, displaying competitors' ads in response to a query for a trademark is permissible; the court ruled, however, that the competitors' ads may not contain the trademarked query terms.

    It seems to me that that strikes a pretty good balance. Allowing the trademarked query terms to appear in the ads carries too much risk for confusion, and it has little benefit for consumers.

    So,
    Cheap Car Insurance from Acme; click here for more info.
    is OK in response to a query for GEICO, but
    Acme is cheaper than GEICO; click here for more info.
    is not.

    However, even under the current ruling, the target of the ad link can still do price comparisons between Acme and GEICO. Consumers really don't lose anything through this ruling; the court just came up with a simple rule by which targeted ads can be made a little clearer and less confusing.
  48. Evens out in the end by wuice · · Score: 3, Funny

    The bad news is we just lost our lawsuit and now have to cough up damages and legal fees. The good news is I just saved a bunch on my car insurance!

  49. Effective Ad by PhYrE2k2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm glad that ad had a good affect on you. I know you'll be going out to buy some coke... errr Pepsi... no Coke... errr... Just pick up a case of each.

    -M

    --

    when you see the word 'Linux', drink!
    1. Re:Effective Ad by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · · Score: 2, Funny

      Always capitalize Coke when referring to the soft drink.

      Otherwise you may be considered to be misuing the trademark, and/or be considered to be using cocaine. :)

      --
      Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
    2. Re:Effective Ad by Professor_UNIX · · Score: 1
      I'm glad that ad had a good affect on you. I know you'll be going out to buy some coke... errr Pepsi... no Coke... errr... Just pick up a case of each.

      They're both basically carbonated sugar water. I say Pepsi and Coke interchangeably.

  50. How is that Googles problem then? by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Because you're not allowed to leverage other people's trademarks to sell your service. That's the point of trademarks.

    So that's a problem with the business doing the advertising, I would think - not Google.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:How is that Googles problem then? by gowen · · Score: 1
      I would think - not Google.
      If a method of advertising is ruled illegal, that's a problem for both the buyer and the seller of that method of advertising.
      --
      Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
  51. The Ruling Relates to Context, NOT Content by Stitch_Surfs · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Actually, people are misunderstanding and mischaracterizing this ruling, which, in my opinion is flawed on a number of levels. First, the ruling has NOTHING to do with making a direct comparison in your AdWords Ad. It has to do with using the word GEICO as one of the words you pay for such that when someone types GEICO into the search bar, Your non-Geico AdWords Ad is displayed. Your ad in fact probably wouldn't say Geico at all.

    Thus, the ruling relates not to the content of the advertising but the CONTEXT. This is a vital distinction. I faced a similar situation last year with AdWords. I was marketing a product called RU-21 for Hangovers. The most popular product in the category is called Chaser, and I was bidding on that word to have my ad displayed when someone searched Chaser. About a month after starting the campaign, I received a VERY UNPLEASANT and threatening letter from Chaser's corporate council...

    What makes this a really important issue is that a large percentage of the really successful AdWords campaigns are predicated upon buying keywords that are the names of your competitor's products.

    Google is undoubtedly going to appeal, but should they lose this will change the name of the game quite considerably both for the advertisers AND for Google

    --
    There is no "I" in B-O-R-G.
    1. Re:The Ruling Relates to Context, NOT Content by shmlco · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, having the competitor's name in the ad, and on the landing page, for that matter, directly affects the ad's perceived relevance, ranking, and visibility. GEICO, and/or their agents, could pick off all the top spots by being the only ones with their name in the ad.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
  52. at least a vast over simplification by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 3, Informative

    Or perhaps just plain wrong.

    The basis for trademark law is the idea of unfair competition.

    So let's start testing this.

    It is legal to mention your competitor's trademarked name to say you are better than them, if it is true. And by true, that means proveably true. This is because it isn't unfair to state the truth. Not that if you can't prove it, because it is a matter of opinion (taste tests) or because you are playing tricks in your tests (like the paper towel strength tests), then you use "brand X".

    It is legal to use a companies' trademarked name for non-commercial purposes. This is because it isn't competition since it isn't even a commmercial endeavour.

    It is not legal to use a companies' trademarked name to lie about them (especially commercially), that would be unfair. Although it's pretty much unfair to lie about a company anyway even if you did avoid their trademark.

    It is not legal to masquerade as another company. For example, if I make breakfast oat-rings, I cannot just print up a Cheerios box and put them in it so they sell better. That would be using the properties of General Mills against them. Every dollar they spent advertising or building a name would actually work for me too (and thus against them), I'm unfairly leveraging their efforts.

    Now, what about just mentioning them to say you are like them (or perhaps unlike them), as in this case. It is possible to do this legally. For example, if I make an aftermarket HP-compatible ink cartridge I can use their name to indicate what it is. I can say "HP-compatible". Or even "compatible with HP printers" or "replaces HP cartridge #XXYY-035". However, there is an easy way to get in trouble in this case. If I made my box say "HP" covering 90% of the front of the box and my company name in tiny lettering in the corner or on the side, I would be masquerading as an HP product (at least long enough to get your attention), and again that would be unfair. See Negativland's U2 album http://foetusized.org/u2.html for example.

    This can happen for regular advertising too. For example, Miller's ads could say "Bud Bud Bud Bud Bud Bud (Miller)" and basically associate themselves more strongly with Budweiser than their own name. That would be unfair too. It even could happen with a (normally legal) comparison ad, like the "better than" ads above. You could truthfully mention you are better than the other product, but spend so much time (or space) in your ad doing it that you are using their name to associate with yours. Obviously all of this is subject to some interpretation.

    So, to go to the AdWords thing, is it illegal? Well, you are using a competitors term and using it commercially. So the competition part is there. But the question is, is it unfair to pop up when your competitor's trademarked term is entered. In my opinion, it probably is. In this case, your product's "box art" (the item that attracts people to look at your product/ad) is essentially 100% your competitor's trademarks. It's like that Negativland cover. When someone sees it from far away, it looks more like your compeitition than yourself; and by design. Information that says that this isn't really your competitor's product is available in your detailed ad, but isn't nearly as visible, and requires a more detailed examination, like hiding your name down in the corner or on the side of the box. Furthermore, every ad dollar your competitor spends is twisted to work against them by helping you. The more people learn their name and enter it into the search box, the more your name pops up.

    Thus, in my opinion, buying adwords of your competitor's trademarks is probably unfair competition and thus illegal. And if judges think like me (I shudder to think) they have no choice but to rule against Google. I don't feel it should be illegal, so I would like Congress to step in and change the law in this case. Will they do it? Probably depends on who has the most lobbying money.

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
    1. Re:at least a vast over simplification by B'Trey · · Score: 1

      All of the illegal situations you mention involve some sort of fraud - fooling or confusing the customer as to the actual brand of a product. Fraud should certainly be illegal.

      But the original decision determined that it was LEGAL for Google to pop up ads when a particular term was entered. It's essentially Google saying "I see you're looking for a car insurance company. Here are some other car insurance companies that you might like to look at." It isn't fraud in any way.

      The new decision says that this becomes illegal if, and only if, the ad contains the trademarked word. This makes no sense what-so-ever. If the ad is fraudulent, it should be illegal in and of itself. The fact that it was selected for display based on a competitor's trademark is irrelevant. The ad is fraudulent - likely to confuse consumers, and so illegal. If the ad is NOT fraudulent - it does not, intentionally or unintentionally, confuse the consumer, then there's no reason to make it illegal because it's based on a trademarked keyword.

      --

      "The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.

    2. Re:at least a vast over simplification by bsgk · · Score: 1

      See, I tend to agree with this.

      Say the text of the ad is...

      "We may save you up to 15% over GEICO."

      What's wrong? No fraud. No nothing. Just saying that, Hey!, are you looking at GEICO? Guess what, Prudential may save you 15% over them.

      Not false. Not fraud. Why can' they do this? I know the court had reasons, but I think it's fair as long as it can be proven. My 2 cents.

    3. Re:at least a vast over simplification by SonicSpike · · Score: 1

      I was taught in my copyright law class that the basis for Trademark law was "limiting confusion in the market place".

      --
      Libertas in infinitum
  53. Negative advertising ... it's OK by pbhj · · Score: 1

    You're wrong (in UK at least). Negative advertising is fine, as long as you tell the truth. Tesco (major grocery (and everything else) retailer) currently has price comparison adverts on TV saying how much cheaper they are and give prices for other main supermarkets.

    Like others mention, "there's no such thing as bad publicity" (not true, I don't think); so mentioning 'Bud gives you less wind than Guinness' is never done.

    1. Re:Negative advertising ... it's OK by @madeus · · Score: 0

      That's true, although I believe there are some catches to the extent the rules are not quite the same in the UK as the US.

      For example, as Tesco's and McDonalds do, you can mention competitors products and offerings but I'm led to believe you can't feature a competitors product directly in the UK as is possible in the US. This is for some reason I don't quite grasp (I can only think to do with the protection of the other vendors image and preventing portal of it in a negative light, or something along those lines).

      I remember seeing an avert on 'Tarrant on TV' (UK TV programme featuring a collection TV clips and especially adverts from around the world) which showed an advert for what I think was some sort of super glue, during which the opening voice over for the commercial proclaimed it was able to join together things never thought possible, which then panned to a Coke and a Pepsi can stuck to each other. The presenter (Chris Tarrant, UK TV and radio presenter) introduced it by indicating it was a clip that would not be legally acceptable in the UK, so apparently it extends not just to directly competing products either.

      It's possible that to so clearly associate one product with another requires permission in the UK, to prevent the impression that one vendor is 'endorsing' another when that's not the case, or it may be a simple discrepancy in the way trademark or copyright regulations are applied.

  54. Ironic by hanshotfirst · · Score: 0

    As I read this thread, the ad displayed is for Google AdSense.

    --
    Why, oh why, didn't I take the Blue Pill?
  55. Um, you got that exactly backwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google won a case a while ago that established a precedent for their being able to allow trademarks to be sponsored as search terms. That was actually a summary judgement in this case. What they just lost was the question of whether or not advertisers could also include the trademark in the text of the ad itself. According to the only case law on the books, your usage of 'Chaser' was perfectly legit.

  56. What I want to know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is who farted at google?

  57. Applied to Software... by tyen · · Score: 1

    ...does this ruling then mean that if you were selling a program that could read/write or convert the data of a competing program, you can't even tell your prospective customers in an AdWords ad that you offered an easy way to migrate away from your competitor? That is what I read into the original linked article.

    If that is true, then wow, what a way to lock in an existing customer base. Just "vigorously enforce" your trademarked name. No need to worry about direct competitors comparing themselves against you. Of course, the direct competitors still have the option to obliquely refer to your business, but this recent ruling seems to open up a grey area to me because it appears to stray from the original intent of trademark protection and start to add levels of indirection to protect. Just how indirect is indirect enough?

    This ruling says it is illegal to mention a trademarked name in the ad copy itself if it violates the "likelihood of confusion" test. Initially, you would get slapped down under this doctrine if you infringed the trademark in such a manner that the infringement would mislead consumers. Now, the reports of these rulings (not the opinions themselves, which I'm still trying to find) seem to extend the protection of the trademark from misleading usage to saying protection is granted over any usage in ad copy whatsoever, regardless of context, misleading or not.

    So if my grocery business shows an ad with a receipt from your business and right next to it is a receipt from your grocery business, and both show a purchase of the same brand type of soup, that is now illegal in the United States because of the trademark on your business' name?

    I'm hoping that Brinkema's phrasing of "solely with regard to those sponsored links that use GEICO's trade marks in their headings or text." limits the expansion of precedent and only rules on the specific ads that used Geico's name in the ad copy. Need to read the court documents to know for sure. If someone knows the PACER case number, please post it up here, because I could not find the GEICO v. Google case in the Eastern Virginia U.S. District Court (there are four cases listed for Google, but none involve Geico).

    1. Re:Applied to Software... by tyen · · Score: 1

      In case anyone else is searching the U.S. District Court Eastern District of Virginia, I finally located the case. When searching, the civil action number is 1:04cv507. Plaintiff is Government Employees Insurance Company (not "GEICO", you won't find it under that term). Defendents are "Google, Inc. AND Overture Services, Inc." Follow the directions at the court's Opinions page.

      You will want to read the Memorandum Opinion for the details. See last paragaph of page 3 for an interesting piece of informatoin. Google supplied "no evidence regarding whether such advertisements [Adwords ads that use the string "GEICO" in the heading or text of the ad] generate a likelihood of confusion". This is primarily because GEICO paid for a survey, the results of which should really fascinate marketers who specialize in Adwords and search engine marketing, notwithstanding some of the survey's (IMHO) outrageous flaws like using a screenshot of a page that only looked similar to a real Google results page.

      I'm going to tentatively unknot my knickers, because it seems that the crux of GEICO's argument is on page 6 and pretty much onwards from that page, and Google simply conceded the field to GEICO by not offering up survey results of their own. Or Google did conduct a survey, and the results were close enough to GEICO's survey that Google effectively did not challenge the results.

      There are some involved discussions on survey result reliability in a court case, issues with survey reliability with this specific survey, and the interaction between business models, Adwords, and marketing (the last of which marketing geeks will love to dissect).

      No matter whether Google's legal team declined to pony up for their own survey, or did and found that the results were probatively similar, the reason I'm not as anxious as before is on page 20, where the opinion says, "Aware of the importance of these issues to the ongoing evolution of Internet business practices and to the application of traditional principles to this new medium, the Court emphasizes that its ruling applies only to the specific facts of this case, which include the unique business model employed by plaintiff and the specific design of defendent's advertising program and search results pages." Brinkema seems perfectly aware of the possibilities for abuse of her opinion. Trivia: she was is also the judge in the Zacarias Moussaoui case.

  58. That's wrong. by seanyboy · · Score: 1

    So any company (e.g. overture or microsoft) could sue Google for running adwords which contain the phrase overture or microsoft. That's plainly ridiculous. What about Hoover. What about any of a million business names.

    If I was Google, I'd immediately make sure that nobody could buy an ad containing words trademarked by my main competitors. And then I'd sue every single text-ad serving company that allows the word "google" to be sold by them.

    --
    Training monkeys for world domination since 1439
  59. here's the bit that confuses me by reidspice · · Score: 1

    i work in this industry and i'm still somewhat confused about what this means so it's not really that surprising to me that people here are not sure what's going on. here's what we know:

    1. it's okay to bid on "geico" as a keyword
    2. it's not okay to use "geico" in your ad (unless you're geico) if geico has filed a trademark protection request with google
    3. google has not allowed anyone to use "geico" in an ad (if they have filled out the paperwork) since april 2004

    so here's the problem - google doesn't allow it but they still need to settle the case with geico or enter the penalty phase. is this just for damages incurred prior to april 2004? or does the decision mean that geico shouldn't have had to follow any procedures in the first place to prohibit others from using their trademark in ad copy?

    no one seems to be answering those questions very clearly. the judge said that google can't do something that, well, it hasn't been doing for almost a year and a half.. so where's the beef? is it with google's current trademark protection procedure or with offenses prior to april 2004 when they instituted that policy?

  60. Common Sense 1, Thieves and Idiots 0 by windowpain · · Score: 1

    Now if they could just do something about all those restaurants that give you Diet Pepsi when you ask for Diet Coke.

    --
    Insert witty sig here.
  61. fuckedgoogle.com 1, Google 0 by googisgod · · Score: 0
    http://www.fuckedgoogle.com/

    Oh how the mighty are falling.

  62. Re:Bah... basic reading skills by DECS · · Score: 1

    I think you meant, "And yes, it's you," unless you were speaking of a you possesed by an it.

  63. Re:sorry you lost, but I have really good news! by Fishstick · · Score: 1

    are you copping to a first post? ;-)

    Yeah, I didn't see it until after posting my redundant comment and was promptly rewarded with a -1 for my trouble.

    --

    There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
    Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.

  64. Flaimbait? by autopr0n · · Score: 1

    How is this flaimbait? Just seems like all these laws are crimping google's style.

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
  65. I agree with the decision. by nunchux · · Score: 1

    Adwords cost money... A lot of money for frequently searched terms. And this cost spirals upwards with the demand. In this system, the only protection a company like Geico has from a customer using their name to draw hits is to pay Google more to keep their site at the top of the list. It's not quite extortion, but it's kind of close...

    Of course Geico would be under no obligation to opt in to this form of advertising, and a generic term like "car insurace" is fair game to give the best results to the highest bidder. But IMO a competitor using Geico's trademark to grab hits-- especially if they use it in a negative way-- is putting the gun to Geico's head and saying, "pay up."

  66. Google should sell regular expressions by ddebrito · · Score: 1

    Google could easily get around selling trademarked ad words by selling regular expressions. For example someone might buy
    /gei.o/i

    It would match on GEIKO but then again it would also match GEIJO

  67. they're not all fraud by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 1

    "Bud Bud Bud Bud Bud Bud (Miller)" isn't fraudlent. And the case of putting "HP" in huge letters on the front of your non-HP printer cartridge is borderline.

    I think you've just missed the case where if you try to associate yourself with your competitors' trademarked name (as opposed to just pretending your are your competitors product) it isn't fraud, at least you aren't defrauding the consumer. The company who holds the trademark would claim injury though.

    Anyway, these two circumstances are the most relevant here. Because they deal not with out and out counterfeiting but a confusion between two products.

    We will see if this holds up, the confusion in the adwords case is a lot less clear cut and thus a lot more argueable than putting your oat-rings in a box that looks nearly identical to a Cheerios box.

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
  68. Perfect Sense by saskboy · · Score: 1

    I open this story about Google Adsense, and what is the /. ad of the story? Google Adsense of course:
    Providing advertising content relevant to the topic of the webpage.

    --
    Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
  69. Laws and their practical impact... by NetSettler · · Score: 1

    Other insurance companies are certainly related to a search on "Geico."

    That's a possible analysis. And it may even be the dominant one under present law. But increasingly I think that it is a bad approach, so please take this set of remarks as a discussion not of present law but as a critique of present law and a discussion of a possible basis for a variant law.

    I feel like the US (and perhaps the world) has a set of laws that used to work well for small to medium-sized companies pre-Internet, but that increasingly those same laws are having different competitive effects in the modern world where all the money is being centralized in a few companies and market entrants are having a harder and harder time.

    I'll give an example that is a real example I've seen happen. (I'm changing the names.) A small retail company, WidgetCo, was struggling to get some notice in advertising for the frobs it makes. A larger chain of retail outlets, GadgetCo, also makes frobs. GadgetCo kept appearing at the top of the list of stores in search lists even when the search term was just "WidgetCo". Why? Because GadgetCo made a "helpful" list of names and addresses of its competitors in its page. This means that since GadgetCo's pages get more hits (it being bigger) and since it mentions WidgetCo, it shows up. But the customers don't see WidgetCo first--it's buried way down there in tiny print with huge GadgetCo logos dominating the page.

    What bothers me about this is that it means under the AdWords scheme, the owner of the trademark has to bid for the use of their own name. That means GadgetCo can outbid them and still show up top of the list. They can even buy several ads and push WidgetCo onto the next page. (Another way present law does not address these issues is not acknowledging the huge real effect of visibility. Being in a search result list, but not at the top, is often the same as not being there.)

    This is a barrier to new entry into the market. It prefers entrenched vendors who are cash-rich and locks out cash-poor newcomers. That's bad for the market, not just for the vendor, which is why I care. I want competitors to enter because I don't want vendors getting too comfy. But as long as they can use practices like this to keep others out, new entrants are reduced and so my choice as a consumer is restricted to fat, comfy, anti-competitive big companies.

    I don't mind having search terms like "something like Coke" turning up Pepsi (and other competitors with coke). I don't mind asking for Coke at a restaurant and having people who do not have Coke interpreting that as a request for similar beverages, so offering me Pepsi as a fallback. But I draw the line at asking for a Coke where it is available and finding that Pepsi is now paying people to say "Pepsi is really better. Are you sure you wouldn't want that instead?" Not only does that violate my sense of Truth and Right and Justice for the Coke trade name, it opens me to infinite ads from beverage servers from whom I just want to get the beverage I asked for!

    --

    Kent M Pitman
    Philosopher, Technologist, Writer

    1. Re:Laws and their practical impact... by B'Trey · · Score: 1

      First, you're conflating search results with ads. Search results show up based on a ranking Google does. The algorithm they use is not public information, though some information is known about it. Companies do their best to rig the results so that they get high rankings, and Google is constantly tuning their algorithm to try and return the most relevant results in spite of attempts to manipulate the ranking. This is a tug of war that doesn't seem likely to end in the near future. However, it has absolutely nothing to do with targeted ads.

      Targeted ads appear off to the side and they're clearly labeled advertisments. If you don't like the ads that are displayed, ignore them. If you search for Pepsi and a Coke ad pops up, don't click on it. Your results for your search are still right there, completely unaffected. But don't claim that just because you don't care to see Coke ads that Google has to refrain from showing them to everyone.

      Widget Co does not have to pay to have their web page show up in a search result. It only has to pay to have Google serve up ads on the side. The cost of advertising is a cost of doing business. Whether you're paying for Google ads or local newspaper ads, they cost money. The larger or more desirable the space they're occupying, the more they cost. Large companies with a big advertising budget always have an advantage over small companies without much to spend. It doesn't matter whether you're talking about Google ads or television ads on Superbowl Sunday.

      --

      "The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.

    2. Re:Laws and their practical impact... by NetSettler · · Score: 1

      The Internet does not have a White Pages, so people use something that is more or less exclusively the Yellow Pages.

      I was once asked a very stark question by someone trying figure things out: How do I get it so that when someone types my company name into the search engine, it comes up near the top? He wasn't trying to win at advertising, he was just trying to get a listing for people to find at all--like the White Pages. It seemed incredible to him, and suddenly then to me too, that there was no way to do this. He didn't even mind if the person had to type the state and maybe even the town. It didn't help. He was still able to be made invisible by competitors. That's anti-competitive and ultimately hurts all consumers.

      --

      Kent M Pitman
      Philosopher, Technologist, Writer

    3. Re:Laws and their practical impact... by B'Trey · · Score: 1

      I won't say that this never happens but I don't think I've ever seen it where I couldn't find the home page of a business whose name I knew. It may not be the first entry but it's always on the first page. If you have a counter example, please post it. And if it does happen, it still has nothing to do with Google ads. Google (and other search engines) work very hard to return the most relevant results. Google certainly doesn't allow companies to pay to increase their page rank. If you have a solution to the problem of ranking pages that isn't subject to manipulation, I suggest you contact Google. They'd be very interested in what you have to say.

      --

      "The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.

  70. moderators 22, googisgod linkwhore 1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    yes, thank you for two dozen links to your site.

    seriously, did you get rejected from google or what? you're the only one beating your drum and it is quite obvious.

  71. Google should lose by FishinDave · · Score: 1

    On both counts. Using GEICO in the text of an ad without permission is wrong. Using GEICO to trigger display of the ad is wrong. Google is offering its Adwords customers the use of the trademark GEICO for commercial purposes. Google has no right to do that without GEICO's permission.