Slashdot Mirror


OSDL Skeptical Of Joint Study with Microsoft

Jac writes "An interview with ZDNet reveals the low opinion Stuart Cohen, chief of Open Source Development Labs(OSDL), has of a recent Microsoft proposal to conduct a joint study on on deploying Microsoft Vs Linux. From the article: 'As far as working with Microsoft on a study, Microsoft could probably find one negative line on Linux in a 100-page research report that it would spend $10 million marketing while ignoring the other 99 pages...' An interesting follow-up to a recent Slashdot article.

162 comments

  1. OTOH by tanveer1979 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Wont microsoft take this skeptism, and then spend 10 million in marketing to say that OSDL backed out of an open test because they know linux is inferior? FP btw

    --
    My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
    FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
    1. Re:OTOH by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

      They probably will. But OSDL won't have wasted its own ressources in creating ammunition for Microsoft FUD.

      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
    2. Re:OTOH by jkrise · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Wont microsoft take this skeptism, and then spend 10 million in marketing to say that OSDL backed out of an open test because they know linux is inferior?"

      I think the world has built up a healthy skepticism about anything coming from Microsoft, so another $10m FUD marketing is gonna go down the drain. There's some key points with this "joint, independent" study:

      1. OSDL is just one of the agencies involved in the creation and upkeep of Open Source projects. MS is the only one developing Windows.

      2. FOSS projects get used and adopted by word of mouth, whereas MS depends on Gartner reports and 'funded, independent' research to propogate their products. How many Gartner reports and mainstream media reports could forecast the spectacular growth of Open Source?

      3. The OSDL could rather focus on their core area of writing and distributing quality software - money invested in 'research' activities such as this is pure waste.

      4. Microsoft's philosophy is 'one-size-fits-all' - totally contrary to the FOSS world. If there's an issue with IE it's impossible to (completely) remove it from the OS and be secure - it's possible to install a Linux server that does not include a browser. Hardly any purpose would be served comparing the two.

      If people are going to adopt and deploy FOSS, they don't need any of these 'sponsored' reports. Microsoft has no choice.

      --
      If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
    3. Re:OTOH by NemoX · · Score: 1

      It's obvious that it is a no win situation. Since Linux came this far on its own, why would it matter to participate or not? We just need to keep doing our own thing, and let Microsoft play catch up. They have been marketting lies agains Linux for some time, and obvoiusly it hasn't worked very well. Most likely because all the fine print says "research funded by microsoft". They just want some FUD they can rip out (like that 1 of 100 pages Cohen stated), with some OSS company name on the report instead. That way when some company says, "yeah, that's great the you found Linux to be higher TCO, but our research shows differently", MS can say, "nuh, uh, see this one is from OSDL", and then show them that one page.

    4. Re:OTOH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Wont microsoft take this skeptism, and then spend 10 million in marketing to say that OSDL backed out of an open test because they know linux is inferior? FP btw" - by tanveer1979 (530624) on Monday August 29, @06:21AM

      They will, & I would as well, publicly expose this as "you talk an AWFUL lot about how bad us MS folks are, Penguins... so! Let's do a test with 3rd party individuals that are impartial & see what's-what!"

      After all &/or Above all:

      MS is openly posing a challenge to JOINTLY CONDUCT THIS STUDY...

      AND, what are the Linux folks doing?

      Running... running scared!

      * :)

      (Sorry, that's what I got out of it folks, & all I can say is "Run, Forrest... run!")

      APK

      P.S.=> Bad move by the Linux crowd... very bad!

      I mean, lol, when you get your bluff called, face up to it mano-a-mano/head-to-head & give it your BEST shot, but running?

      Where I am from, you do that?? You run the rest of your days...

      I can point to an interesting little debate I have going over @ Windows IT Pro magazine that might interest some, with Dr. Mark Russinovich: I have REPEATEDLY emailed him & challenged him to disprove 14 points I wrote that contradict & toss an article of his (and a program as well or two) into the "circular file"... & what does this 'legendary figure' in our field do there?

      Run, & not even face up to my emails & points, especially after I corrected his errors for him in his work that showed blatant ROOKIE level hardcodes in it, prior to this article releasing.

      The ONLY reason I ask him to show? Is his closing paragraph: The names he tosses? It's spoiling for a fight, I give him one... one he's OUTRIGHT running from!

      I hope he reads this, because it's come to the point where they are editing out the facts I used that come from the likes of Microsoft, IBM DB/2, & other users (ones with certs &/or degrees, + years of experience in this field hands on as well)...

      Pitiful: I really know JUST how MS feels, and they have had enough - you "Pro-Linux" Slashdotters ought to write the faction of Unix/Linux heads running scared here, & tell them "DO THIS TEST, face up to it or look like a pack of blowhards"... apk

    5. Re:OTOH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=120

      For what I was referring to?

      See that page... OR RATHER, my last replies in challenge to its author, before the crew @ Windows IT Pro magazine's forum's master, OR Dr. Russinovich possibly, edits out my 14 points I ask him to disprove once more/again.

      It's a fair challenge, I merely ask him to "face up to it" since his terminating paragraph is 'fighting words' to me? I merely brought up points from Microsoft (numerous) & IBM DB/2 mag, as well as the experiences of others in this field with degrees, certifications, &/or years of experience in it vs. his articles' points.

      (Inclusive of errs in his OWN work I had to help this "legendary figure" in this field understand and fix in his own wares... after he tried disassembling my own years ago no less!) :)

      * Like I said above - I know how MS feels, when they confront the Linux crowd openly & directly with a challenge, & they're RUNNING from it!

      (See what I mean from that URL above, & see WHY I say what I did here)

      Thank-you!

      Sincerely,

      APK

    6. Re:OTOH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ye Gods.

      The only blowhard here is you, Mr. APK.

      And that link proves it nicely :0)

      Take some meds man!

    7. Re:OTOH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, ok, whatever you say...

      So... I take it you have a degree in psychaitry or psychology (& can dispense meds as well & are licensed to do so)?

      Care to show me your degree in those "sciences" (pseudo-sciences is more like it, too imprecise, so not that it would matter even IF you had them)??

      (Oh yea, that's right - you don't possess either one yet make such assessments on my mental state, without even knowing me for one thing, & if that's the best you have? Well... let others do the judging!)

      * :)

      APK

    8. Re:OTOH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your posts are a very clear indication of your mental state to anyone.

      Degrees, etc. not required.

      Who else but a madman would copy and paste the same stuff over and over again? I don't see normal people doing that. Especially to 200-odd pages (although I note the admins have sensibly cut back on just a few of your duplicated posts).

      Seriously, man, you've got to be a bit loopy to go around accusing Dr Mark Russinovich of industrial espionage - unless that was a joke!

      And to tell me I need some sort of cert. to tell you to keep taking the meds is just laughable - Most people would take that as simple leg-pulling.

      Keep taking the dried frog pills!

    9. Re:OTOH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Seriously, man, you've got to be a bit loopy to go around accusing Dr Mark Russinovich of industrial espionage - unless that was a joke!"

      Ahem - anybody that disassembled (or tried to, using softice) my work as he did years ago & doubtless will admit to, or have to, as I have people from LC Technology willing to witness to it!

      (They were notified of it, because my wares outsold Dr. Russinovich's when we both sold our wares thru them via SunBelt Software).

      It was then, no less, so he started crying like a baby first of all because his work was not selling as well as my own.

      Secondly, back then, Dr. Russinovich said that "memory optimization" as he calls it could ONLY be performed by device drivers, which now?

      He realizes was WAY off now in his article I pointed out here earlier, & see the URL below... then their webmaster tried to edit out my list of points:

      COWARDICE! lol...

      See, first of all, Dr. Russinovich & his trying disassembly of MY work (which softice is VERY simple to counter for in code by detecting its presence via certain functions, just like how the Win32 API IsDebuggerPresent works for other "stand-alone debuggers" (spelled sideways = disassembler tools) can check for WinDbg's presence as well) shows that... he's nothing more than a hack.

      Point-blank.

      (By the by, this attempt to do so on MY work, was circa 1995-1998 iirc when THAT happened).

      Then, above all?

      His very disassembly of the Windows NT-based Operating Systems NtAPI "native mode" (during bootstrap real mode etc./et all operations) API points to it as well...

      Anything the Microsoft DDK (device driver kit) did not give him? He "hacked" the ntdll.dll & other NtAPI call libs for...

      Don't believe it? See his own website.

      * :)

      APK

      P.S.=> When I see a spade, I call a spade a spade... and can back it up with facts.

      Why doesn't he attempt to disprove my list of 14 points then, I ask you that...

      After all, my 14 points there?

      They ARE backed up by sources FAR more credible than Dr. Russinovich (e.g.-> Microsoft themselves, the inventors/oem of this OS family, &/or IBM DB/2 Magazine itself for example!)

      Also, others were from folks who showed memory optimizers benefitting them in various ways with their OS &/or apps too... folks with either/or degrees, certifications, &/or years of experience in this field no less...

      That's my answer to you!

      I only wonder why a guy who can call others names in his article (what nerve & unprofessional-ness), won't go & face the music there @ that URL:

      http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=121

      And, try to disprove my list of facts there, even though I emailed him repeatedly to do so... emails of mine over time he has answered, especially the one I note where I found ROOKIE hardcodes (one corrected per my advice regarding C:\pagefile.sys & others I found regarding EventLogs movements from stock/oem locations on C:\ disks, both concerned moving them for GREATER PERFORMANCE, which he did not account for & hardcoded in pagedefrag.exe...

      Oh, & by the way? I show simply, he's not perfect by the way... he's just a man, but one with a BIG damn mouth & cannot back up his b.s. when push comes to shove... simple!

      Wake up... apk

    10. Re:OTOH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What laughable rubbish!

      Dr Russinovich has sold more software than you - and given a sight more away for nothing.

      He also understands his subject matter - which is more than can be said for you! You don't even understand his article, which is why you are misquoting it. The only faults you are finding are in your own misunderstanding or Dr Russinovich's work. Well, you're hardly in the same league!

      It was not cowardice to edit your obscenely lengthy and unnecessarily repetitive posts - it was sensible. Frankly I'm surprised they didn't edit more - maybe I should email them and get them to delete more stuff? Who wants to wade through 120 pages of the same old blowhard crap? What's the point of posting it over and over?

      Seems to me you're calling a spade a piece of yellow plastic used for making sandcastles...

      Your list of "points" is not points at all. Points are short - ie to the point.

      No-one replies to them, except mockingly, precisely because of that. I guess you will never understand that.

      Dr Russinovich won't "attempt to disprove them" because his article already does that - you should read it some time; it's pretty good.

      Those articles you linked to in DB2 magazine say nothing of the sort - you're just misinterpreting them (again). Your so-called backup is just a twisted mash of the original source which proves nothing except that the only person with the BIG damn mouth that cannot backup his b.s. is you.

      For a start, Dr Russinovich doesn't call anyone names - but YOU did in that thread. It's all there in black and white!

      I would wake up yourself before trying to offer that advice to others!

    11. Re:OTOH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wont microsoft take this skeptism, and then spend 10 million in marketing to say that OSDL backed out of an open test because they know linux is inferior?

      And if MS simply says 'Well, OK, we invited you guys but you didn't wanna come,' then proceeds to drop the matter completely, as gentlemen would ...

      would that cause the /. anti-MS FUD to lighten even the tiniest amount?

      Really. I'm asking. You guys paint MS into a corner they're not allowed to leave - never noticing your own FUD is at least as bad.

    12. Re:OTOH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First of all, it's FUNNY how you seem to have abandoned the fact Dr. Russinovich disassembled my wares before & admitted to it, as well as those from MS in their Native NtAPI as well also... he's a SoftIce/WinDbg/DLL Injection using hack.

      Prove otherwise, ok? I have proven that much, easily.

      ---

      "Dr Russinovich has sold more software than you" - by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 31, @03:36AM

      At the time I quote, and thru LC Technology back circa 1995-1998, he was not. Ask them. Call them & ask for a person named Dave.

      See if Dr. Russinovich was not complaining that my software was outselling his, & was totally off-base regarding 'memory optimization' as he calls it!

      He stated YEARS ago, it was only possible via a device driver rpl0/ring 0 program.

      He only now (well, a year or two ago) realizes he was WAY off-base on that topic.

      (And, I would wonder about that statement of yours currently as well - I have written portions of softwares that did VERY well, that are mentioned in the article & reviewed excellently @ that very magazine's pages, which I further improved by 40% no less in SuperSpeed.com's SuperCache program: it's quoted below anyways as to that factoid!)

      "He also understands his subject matter - which is more than can be said for you! You don't even understand his article, which is why you are misquoting it." - by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 31, @03:36AM

      Oh, really? Is that WHY HE STATED TO MYSELF and the folks from LC Technology where he and I both sold our wares, that doing "memory optimization" could only be done @ a driver level??

      Only now, does he realize he was wrong.

      AND, who and what am I misquoting on that page?

      Show us there, ok?? EXACTLY where.

      Bottom-line:

      I put up points I challenge he (or, anyone else) to disprove. Dr. Russinovich has not to date, even though I repeatedly emailed him to do so...

      Gee, wonder WHY that is, lol! Nobody else can either, & I took them down, one by one, quoting each of them... very simple.

      "Dr Russinovich won't "attempt to disprove them" because his article already does that - you should read it some time; it's pretty good." - by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 31, @03:36AM

      No, it's not: It fails to disprove these very points, regarding memory optimizers (again, as he calls them) useless, so, I challenged him to disprove the 14 examples of where I show they ARE useful. They are quoted here below by the by in my PS section.

      Not only my own words from users who have written me about them, but the fact Microsoft produces one themselves in their resource kits for Windows Server 2003 (and from as far back, iirc, for Windows NT 3.5x), & it's called clearmem.exe!

      What about how Virtual Memory Fragmentation? Dr. Russinovich ADMITS that memory optimizers can stop that (which Exchange Server is prone to)??

      What about how IBM DB/2 Magazine cites that freeing RAM from the OS' diskcache is BENEFICIAL to its faster/better operations, since the double-buffering effect the native OS diskcache has is detrimental to its performance - and "memory optimizers" free that (actually, the VM subsystem does in response to them) up in part usually first.

      SO, see the article, DO READ IT YOURSELF, and then tell us all otherwise vs. those points and the rest I posted, one by one here.

      An example of YOUR not reading it, as to his not calling anyone names? Wake up, read this, newsflash time from its 2nd page terminating paragraph:

      "For a start, Dr Russinovich doesn't call anyone names" - by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 31, @03:36AM

      Oh, really, and you told ME to read his article? See this quote of his, in its last paragraph:

      QUOTE of Dr. Russinovich:

      "and could be implemented by so many small-time upstarts)"

      This "small-time upstart" didn't like that very much, and also? I challenge him to disprove these points, 1 by 1, here at the top of this page:

    13. Re:OTOH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dr Russinovich didn't name anybody... but if the cap fits :0)

    14. Re:OTOH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is obviously the SAME person who posted over at Windows IT Pro as "anonymous luser" & attempts to state he is the one editing out my points...

      Well, ok (you only brought this on yourself)... So, put your "mental seatbelts" on, you'll need 'em, especially @ the end, where you make such a horrendous technical oversight, it's laughable, so I will requote my reply from Windows IT Pro to you from this URL:

      http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles/index.cfm?art icleid=41095&cpage=121

      Right here below:

      ---

      Ahem - (b.s. *cough*).

      He wrote that about anyone that wrote such programs, & that also includes myself (since I did the first GUI model).

      * Not even a "NICE TRY" pal...

      "Not only a blowhard, but a paranoid blowhard at that!" - Anonymous User - August 31, 2005

      One that reduced you to the name-tossing you are doing above (care to show me your PhD in psychiatry/psychology by the way, the one you MOST LIKELY do not have there Dr. Phil?)

      Name-tossing out of frustration:

      A certain sign of defeat online in technical debate, no doubt about it... see the arstechnicans like Jeremy Reimer, Jay Little, + others of their ilk above I quote/cite, so they embarass themselves with their own antics.

      I warned Dr. Russinovich about that in email, by the way, beforehand.

      (BUT, the antics of the forums masters here? Lame!)

      I mean, lol, having to edit out of my post of 14 points above?

      (That stopped, but THAT took shaming the forums master here, or whoever was doing it, over @ slashdot pointing it out publicly there, whatever works... just an "ancient jedi mind trick", lol, but effective!)

      Anyhow...

      Shameful - I thought you people here had class, obviously not!

      Only just judging by tactics like editing out my 14 points post above that YOUR PhD author here obviously (along with all of arstechnica as well, lol) cannot disprove its content in said 14 points.

      The content in those 14 points above?

      Well, obviously/clearly, they throw this article's premise, & its terminating paragraph's name tossing to those such as myself that wrote up such programs, RIGHT into the 'circular file' now, don't they?

      The UNBELIEVEABLE ARROGANCE, and unprofessional rudeness of this author (along with his SoftIce, WinDbg, & DLL Injection built career, lol), who caps his article with THIS line, again from the Anonymous User who posted it above & noted it also as I did:

      "if RAM optimization were possible (and could be implemented by so many small-time upstarts)," - Dr. Mark Russinovich

      Dr. Russinovich, your calling other software author's names as he did was unprofessional here.

      I openly challenged he, or anybody else (including whoever was editing out my posts) to disprove each of my points, with facts... that's all!

      Too much for you boys? Apparently so...

      APK

      P.S.=> Like I said before: Hey, Dr. Russinovich, "Run Forrest, run..."

      Now, & if you DON'T like that?

      Well, "sir", think of the scene in the film "Good Will Hunting" where the pompous A$$ @ the bar picks on Will's pal:

      And, he just outright "schools" him on HIS turf (educational historical levels iirc, as I am doing to YOU here Dr. Russinovich on technical proofs in this field/our field) as well as mano-a-mano/head-to-head with his:

      "And, if you don't like it, we can step outside if you like" & "Do you like apples? Well, I got HER number: HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM APPLES??"

      Now, if you don't like that, like I said above... just disprove my list of 14 points. That's all, after all, YOU ARE "the great Dr. Mark Russinovich" right?

      Plus, your forums masters here editing out my 14 points you are avoiding disproving, and running obviously from them?

      Well, it's YOUR professional standing... that's all!

      This "upstart" doesn't start things, but I gen

  2. Use both by froggero1 · · Score: 3, Informative

    I don't get it though. Why bother comparing the two? Use what works best for the job. I don't think that anyone should be using only one operating system all the time anyways.

    --
    ~/.sig: No such file or directory
    1. Re:Use both by Knome_fan · · Score: 3, Informative

      Ehm, the purpose of these studies is, or at least should be, to find out which one "works best for the job", so I fail to really see your point.

    2. Re:Use both by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How, pray, can one tell which is "best for the job" if one does not explore, i.e. compare, the various options?

    3. Re:Use both by weicco · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, I don't know why compare just two operating system, why not bunch of them, but I can figure out the reason. There is so many rumours about Windows that are causing harm to Microsoft. I don't know how average slashdot troll ("OMGXIITLOL! My XP crashes ALL THE TIME") affects corporate managers though.

      But I'd like to see comparison between Windows, Linux, Open/Net/FreeBSD, Solaris and some other UNIXes if it would be rationally made and conducted. Of course there would be some issues like "why didn't they use kernel option X and Y or software option Z" but it would be fun to read.

      --
      You don't know what you don't know.
    4. Re:Use both by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, that's completely wrong. This is about which one is "best" in a two-line "executive summary" for the PHBs. It's about implanting the FUD that maybe Windows is better after all. Few PHBs have the spine to actually find out for themselves, or to stick to their guns if challenged.

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    5. Re:Use both by Knome_fan · · Score: 1

      Notice that I wrote the purpose of these studies should be, not is.

      I don't doubt for a minute that the studies MS likes to cite in its Get the FUD campaign do a lot of things, but certainly don't try to find out what really "works best for the job".

    6. Re:Use both by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think that anyone should be using only one operating system all the time anyways.

      Yeah, as long as it's not Windows. I don't wanna troll, but I now feel that running Windows is just like letting your gun on your desk, even if you know how to use it, someone can still come (from a 0-day exploit) and use it against others. I have been an IRC admin for 5 years and to me any Windows computer is just a future Zombie PC. Microsoft should pay our ISP fees, since they increased the overall cost of running networks by creating an unsecure OS which now uses lot of bandwith permanently (virus looking for exploits by scanning IP ranges are already causing mass permanent traffic, and when the botnet owner decides it's time for the DdoS it's an incredible amount of BW every Internet community actor has to deal with (peering), so a cost to every member of the Internet community). And while they should pay our ISP fees, we should not be greatful. It should be their punishment for lying, stealing and creating such an abomination. They have just done one thing great : they made computers popular and I doubt it was for the very benefit of Mankind.

      Aahhhhh it feels good. Long time I didn't rant on Microsoft. Next time, I'll go against Sun, this Jonathan Schwartz is running on my nerves...!! ;)

    7. Re:Use both by QMO · · Score: 1

      I don't want MS to pay my ISP fees. That would raise MS prices, and make me more dependent on them.

      I know, I know. I shouldn't reply to AC rants.

      --
      Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
    8. Re:Use both by ifwm · · Score: 1

      Without research, how can you declare it FUD like you did?

    9. Re:Use both by Lux · · Score: 1

      > Few PHBs have the spine to actually find out for themselves, or to stick to their guns if challenged.

      You're right on the first point, but wrong on the second.

  3. In related news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    ...Theodore Adorno has second thoughts about a joint paper on race issues with Adolf Hitler. News at 11:00.

  4. Objective study might still be better by Mostly+a+lurker · · Score: 0, Redundant
    I share the skepicism over Microsoft's motives. That said, in the absence of a highly visible objective study, all we can expect is more of the purchased studies that IMHO are an even easier vehicle for misleading marketing.

    At least with an objective study, those who take the trouble to read the whole report get some useful information.

    1. Re:Objective study might still be better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry but 'objective study' and 'monopoly' in the same sentence is an oximoron.

  5. Double-Edged Sword by MaskedKumquat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    While I am biased to believe that Microsoft cannot be trusted to take an truly independent report at face value, the OSDL will be hard pressed to pass on this opportunity. If you doubt this, imagine the spin Microsoft marketing could put on the alternate headline: "OSDL declines Microsoft offer for independent analysis". Looking at this angle, I actually have to tip my hat to Microsoft; the OSDL will have to handle this situation perfectly to avoid exposing an exploitable weakness. Above all, I think this move shows that Microsoft has escalated their offensive, bringing the battle for business customers onto free and open source software's home turf.

    1. Re:Double-Edged Sword by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Microsoft are not offering an independent analysis, they are trying to get a bipartisan analysis. There is a huge difference. An independent analysis would start off by finding out which benchmarks are useful in the real world. A bipartisan analysis would start off with both sides pushing for benchmarks that they know (or strongly suspect) would favour their side.

    2. Re:Double-Edged Sword by cow-orker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You know what comes out of this study. In some constructed situation (desktop system, heavily firewalled, used to write letters to people who refuse to use anything other than MS Word) windows will be "better" in some sense. MSFT will heavily market this "fact from an independent study", omitting all the necessary conditions and not mentioning the cases where Linux is superior.

      The sensible thing for OSDL is to tell them off: "We don't have time for silly games, we're busy providing value to out customers."

    3. Re:Double-Edged Sword by strider44 · · Score: 1

      or perhaps "Non Profit organisation declines to spend money on Microsoft's offer of an independent study". Why would OSDL spend money on comparing Linux and Windows when they don't even own Linux?

    4. Re:Double-Edged Sword by jkrise · · Score: 2, Informative

      There's little use 'marketing' Open Source and Free Software adopting the same methods and paradigm as Microsoft software. Microsoft has been on the offensive for the past decade and more wrt competition - Lotus 123 gave up after a few years as did Word Perfect and later Netscape.

      F/OSS is a different kettle of fish. Being aggressive, sponsored research etc. hasn't cut much ice. Customers are interested in 'Getting their Act' more than 'Getting the twisted Facts'. The ones that base their decisions on Gartner reports aren't worth addressing anyway.

      --
      If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
  6. According to plan by Mjlner · · Score: 1, Interesting
    Right now, Steve Ballmer is probably putting his fingertips together, smiling demonically and hissing "Excellent...". Of course Microsoft knew the OSDL is going to be skeptical (for the obvious reasons) and just wanted the opportunity to start FUDding with
    "Oh look! The OSDL is unwilling to objectively compare Linux to Windows, because they know that Windows is the obvious choice for any enterprise!"

    Hardly surprising.

    --
    Lemon curry???
  7. "Microsoft could probably..." by l3v1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft could probably find one negative line on Linux in a 100-page research report that it would spend $10 million marketing while ignoring the other 99 pages

    Correct. You know, if it talks like a duck and it walks like a duck then go on. Why would any new campaign they do be any different than they did up to now ? Nuff said.
     

    --
    I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    1. Re:"Microsoft could probably..." by boer · · Score: 1

      But they have every right to do so in a free world no? What keeps forces behind Linux from boasting with the other assumed 99 % of the pages? Please explain this lack of spirit.

      --
      (This sig intentionally left blank)
    2. Re:"Microsoft could probably..." by Lodragandraoidh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      OSDL should be wary. The question needs to be asked, why is Microsoft approaching OSDL to partner on this now - when they were bashing Linux and FOSS in general as "communistic"?

      Given Microsoft's track record the phrase "embrace, extend, destroy" comes to mind.

      --

      Lodragan Draoidh
      The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
    3. Re:"Microsoft could probably..." by Moofie · · Score: 1

      The right to? Sure. Guess who has more marketing dollars, ODSL or Microsoft?

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    4. Re:"Microsoft could probably..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Choose one of:

      "wah wah, they might find something bad to focus on so we shouldn't do it"

      or

      "if they find something bad to focus on we could fix it"

      Same old Linux problem - it's not written for people to use, but for geeks to hack on. And while they fully expect to supplant Windows one day they don't give a shit about issues that actual users care about. Hmmm, sounds familiar, I wonder if most "Linux people" are actually in IT support?

  8. It's the OS wars finally coming out in the open by manavendra · · Score: 1

    For years, OS-wars have been in the domain of /.'ers and such OS enthusiasts (I'd like to say tongue-in-cheek, enthusiasts for better, stable, readily-available software), while the corporate line taken by (not just MS), was Linux (and thereby all open source products) were not the same in performance, cost of adoption/transition or support

    However, now that the momentum is decidedly shifting (however slow), or it seems the market is moving towards a combination of the two (MS on the desktops mostly, but Linux etc on Servers), we now have the biggest giant throwing open its coffers to throw up smokescreens as much as it can

    This is not to say everything we have in the Linux world is superior always compared to say, Windows, however, what we do have is a community ready to learn, and change. How better is that compared to futzing around with existing features that MS tends to do across versions (and mostly gets it wrong lately)?

    --
    http://efil.blogspot.com/
    1. Re:It's the OS wars finally coming out in the open by tchernobog · · Score: 2, Insightful

      // the momentum is decidedly shifting [...] it seems the market is moving towards a combination of the two

      Er... actually it has been *Unix* on servers for two decades, and now instead of switching to GNU/Linux when need arises (where they should feel at home) a lot of them are switching to Windows[*]. We should ask us why. PR & Marketing is a truly important thing for "Fortune 500 & Co." pinheads.

      So, in a different sense you're right: on the server market, we're moving towards a combination of the two AND IT SHOULDN'T HAPPEN.

      Whereas, GNU/Linux gained some _little_ momentum in desktop, and so started being more talked about by people that don't even *know* what a server is (e.g. journalists that writes for big newspapers?). That's why you can talk outside ./ of GNU/Linux, and start hearing "uh, wait... I knew, I knew it... it's a kind of a toaster, is it?"

      But let's face it: I use GNU/Linux only (and|because) I'm a FSF member, but how many of your non-geek friends do use it at home and have throwed completely away Windows? [**]

      [*] Note: it's not that people don't switch to GNU/Linux (or *BSD) at all. It's the fact that not everybody do this choice.

      [**] Please don't start throwing in messages like "why people can't use both? why they can't live on the same hd?". It's MY ethics, I ain't forcing you to see it the same way I do.

      --
      42.
  9. Altruism at it's most false by Circlotron · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Microsoft would like you to believe that it wants to share it's market with Linux in a fair and friendly way, and that they want what is best for the customer in every situation. The commercial interests of Microsoft are only an unintended coincidence and for that matter come a distant second. Excuse me while I go and barf...

  10. What purpose does a joint study serve? by DrXym · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What's in it for Linux? It's only going to say what everyone knows already - Linux is cheaper, TCO is lower but there are weaknesses in some domains such as desktops. It probably sounds fair and reasonable that Microsoft wants a chance a neutral report (instead of their usual tainted, biased, paid for reports), but you just know they're going to capitalize on the air of respectability of a joint study to report the same distortions and negative PR as they always do. So why bother?

    1. Re:What purpose does a joint study serve? by MichaelSmith · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It probably sounds fair and reasonable that Microsoft wants a chance a neutral report (instead of their usual tainted, biased, paid for reports), but you just know they're going to capitalize on the air of respectability of a joint study to report the same distortions and negative PR as they always do.

      Studies involving commercial products always follow the money. There is more money behind MS windows, so any study which starts out with no assumptions will quickly steer in a direction which favours the side with more money.

      I used to be involved in bicycle advocacy, and debates over bicycle facilities would always go the same way. Car advocates would be well paid consultants with plenty of time to waste. Bike advocates would be unpaid people with no spare time. The final decision would be taken by the people who were able to turn up.

      Outfits like OSDL do have resources, but in situations where they can turn up three or four paid advocates/engineers/lawyers, MS will supply thirty or forty.

  11. Take a Page from Pepsi's Playbook by Quirk · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Hearsay has it that Pepsi as a young upstart challenging Coke had only the slightest toehold in the market until Coke decided on a campaign to compare Coke to Pepsi headon. The outcome of Coke's campaign was to give Pepsi the national exposure it needed to break into the market big time.

    In Linux's position, having MS wanting to go head to head might be a win win situation. I know if the product were mine I'd want to mix it up with the big boys.

    --
    "Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
    Cohen
    1. Re:Take a Page from Pepsi's Playbook by Lellor · · Score: 1

      I don't get what all the fuss is about. Linux and other free systems are already prety well entrenched in the server market. I work in the areospace industry, and although Microsoft products are widely used, I've seen Linux and Open/FreeBSD servers being used a lot in LANspace.

      The entire engineering department where I work basically scoffs at Microsoft NT4/2000/2003 servers and there's a general consensus that they stink, and although we do have to use Windows 2000 Server regularly, Linux is certainly there humming away in the background. Most people just tend to notice it less because there are fewer problems with its day to day operation. While there will most likely be a Microsoft servers around for a while longer, Linux is by no means a product with only a toehold in the market. Just look at any ISP.

      --
      Liberal Ontarians and French Quebecers are draining Western Canada's wealth. Stop them now! Support Western separatism.
    2. Re:Take a Page from Pepsi's Playbook by SewersOfRivendell · · Score: 1

      Huh? Coke never challenged Pepsi "head on" until Pepsi made Coke executives nervous with the Pepsi Challenge. Coke came out with the infamous New Coke, and Pepsi gloated. But, by that time, Pepsi was already well-established.

      Yes, this is offtopic, but really, mods, save "Insightful" for when you can actually validate the insight.

    3. Re:Take a Page from Pepsi's Playbook by thekla · · Score: 1

      A fast moving consumer good only needs exposure and artificial value perception marketing. Completely unlike operating systems.

      In the pepsi-coke case, the mere fact that the heaviest brand name in the world acknowledged pepsi as a comparable (a marketing blunder on their part) was enough to create consumer perception of equivalence/alternative, i.e. to position pepsi as a possible coke subsitute in consumer's minds. From there onwards, all that pepsi's marketing had to do would be to touch specific style/passion points on consumers and switch them over to build a base.

      You don't sit an ponder, try to make an educated choice when picking up a beverage from the grocery store. You don't see it as a comittment. You don't expect huge differentiation in the result of its use. Even then, there are no risks involved.

      One might say that a study like this would offer the same acknowledgement of rivalry/equivalence for linux by MS. Sure, the perception of subsitution quality does not exist in many decision makers' minds. (even though it is gaining mindshare in many other directions) But I doubt that the MS-directed marketing spin (which is what those decision makers will see) would play too much on this aspect.

      Linux and OSS should not play marketing games on traditional brands' turf with conventional methods. Word-of-mouth, pull marketing and such tools are far superior in the long run, and they happen to be OSS's home ground. I say stick to them and capitalize on them. Don't waste money on the kind of marketing that's suitable for big corporations.

      --
      -- say with me: i'm a monkey child
  12. Go away. by Stumbles · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Given Microsoft's past behavior and after being convicted as a monopoly that has abused the market. I cannot believe they have anything but unscrupulous intentions to manipulate what ever the results would have been.

    OSDL is absolutely right in that their business is not running some heads up knock down, who's better activity. That's better left to the Microsoft rags that gobble up anything they say an put it in print.

    --
    My karma is not a Chameleon.
  13. Re:Missing disclaimer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    OSDL != OSDN

  14. Posturing is all wrong. by �nertia · · Score: 0

    I think the posturing of this proposal would see it fail from the onset. MS vs Linux? I would have thought that it would be better to do a joint study looking at how both technologies and products may be used to create a more effective environment both on the desktop and in the backroom. Maybe I'm just being naive, but typically when you do a joint study your hypothesis should be one which aims to proove mutual benefit for both parties. Perhaps MS and OSDL should consider changing the study's aim from a comparitive prosess, and take a more ethnographic approach (using the knowledge on the ground to assess the situation) insteed of comming at it from above with all high heavens of "Objective" "Truth"... That's what we have been doing in the social sciences recently, perhaps it's time for the IT sector to look around a bit at how typically polarising communities can be brought together through "ethnographic" methods. Cheers Joel W (AEnertia) NZ

    --

    AEnertia
    Witty, tag line goes here

    1. Re:Posturing is all wrong. by Stumbles · · Score: 1

      Since OSDL is not the one that initiated or rather instigated this "study". It's not their responsibility to change it's "aim", as you put it. Only in a superficial, can I market this as useful FUD would Microsoft consider changing its aim.

      --
      My karma is not a Chameleon.
    2. Re:Posturing is all wrong. by �nertia · · Score: 1

      Well, while there are definately going to be a number of strategic motives behind somthing like this eminanting from MS. This is also a sign that irrespective of all else there is acknowledgement of FOSS in the from of Linux being somthing worth working with. Don't let the strategic motives part cloud the positive aspects of somthing like this. insofar as OSDL, it has a responsibility to enagage in a Dialogue with MS... it would be irresponsible not to. (Would you have OSDL do what MS effectively did in it's internal policy of no-mention, no deal etc???). And I think out of that, then guiding aims away from compartive work to more, benificial and productive works, would benifit both sides.

      --

      AEnertia
      Witty, tag line goes here

    3. Re:Posturing is all wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hi, I'm Adolf Hitler and I'd like to take a more ethnographic approach to the issue of exterminating the jews. We Nazis have therefore constructed our proposal for a joint study, which is to be presented for the consideration of the Israeli government, accordingly.

      Please excuse the Godwin invoking analogy, I just wanted to illustrate how your proposal may work in bringing together polarised communities. Don't forget who we are talking about here!

  15. MS only pays 50% by jurt1235 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think it is pretty easy to pass by this study. OSDL has to pay the other half of a study they are not really interested in. So this study can turn out bad or good for any party involved, but it also eats into the budget.

    --

    My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
    1. Re:MS only pays 50% by Red+Alastor · · Score: 1
      I think it is pretty easy to pass by this study. OSDL has to pay the other half of a study they are not really interested in. So this study can turn out bad or good for any party involved, but it also eats into the budget.

      Indeed. And you don't even mention that we don't even know half of how much. Microsoft have a lot more money to waste on this study than OSDL do.

      --
      Slashdot anagrams to "Sad Sloth"
  16. What keeps forces from boasting linux by jurt1235 · · Score: 1

    Money money money! And there is not 1 salesorganisation which is at the table with all the large companies. Anyway, do I care as developper if it is sold to a fortune 500? Only for my ego, I do not earn a penny with it anyway. So do I care about marketing and sales: Yes, but only if somebody hires me along with it.

    --

    My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
  17. GET THE FACTS campain by alexandreracine · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In BIG letters : Microsoft is better, bigger, stronger, more secure 100% of the time.

    In small letters : This survey was paid by Microsoft, Gates and Ballmer edited the results so it could fit in this report and your screen.

    Also in the news, Santa Claus is retiring.

    --
    No sig for now.
    1. Re:GET THE FACTS campain by alexandreracine · · Score: 5, Interesting
      "Customers have asked me for an analysis on Linux," Taylor said in the statement. "While we had done some research in our Linux and open-source lab, there's not yet any substantial, fact-based research out there on Linux to help customers make value based IT decisions."
      Wow, that's strong. Some MS guys saying that the Get the facts campain is bullcrap. Did he just said that?
      --
      No sig for now.
  18. Proper thing by hasst · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Ignore them [MS], this is the only proper thing to do. Also, have the balls to launch a campaign agaist "Get the Farts". Fight back! Microsoft is the enemy, like it or not. We don't need to treat them without respect, even fear, still it is our duty to act as in a war.

    PS: I'm not sorry for all the peace loving hippies I might of offended.

    1. Re:Proper thing by dancallaghan · · Score: 0

      PS: I'm not sorry for all the peace loving hippies I might of offended.

      I am a grammar nazi and you just offended me.

    2. Re:Proper thing by stuntpope · · Score: 1

      Have course he would of offended you.

    3. Re:Proper thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But you have already lost your argument. Comedian George said that as soon as one party in an argument brings up Hitler or nazis, that side lost the argument.

  19. No no no by jurt1235 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    My OS is clearly better than your OS! You insesitive clod.

    --

    My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
  20. the thing osdl could do.. by timmarhy · · Score: 1, Insightful

    is totally ignore MS and leave them out in the cold.

    --
    If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
  21. Play with the big boys by jurt1235 · · Score: 1

    And then include that Coca Cola almost made a lethal mistake with their "New Coke", and you have a winning formula.

    Anyway, I think linux clearly plays with the big boys already, so that is not needed anymore.

    --

    My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
    1. Re:Play with the big boys by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Longhorn?

    2. Re:Play with the big boys by Quirk · · Score: 1
      "Anyway, I think linux clearly plays with the big boys already, so that is not needed anymore."

      Generally I agree of course, but in terms of desktop usage Linux might benefit from going head to head with Windows. The worst that might come of it would be that Linux advertised as the second best desktop OS, but being second best and free might be a leg up on being less well known in the desktop market.

      I would try to set the comparison to key on desktop usage. I don't think total cost of ownership is applicable to a desktop OS, so really, being free and a comparable alternative to Windows is a good thing.

      Cheers

      --
      "Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
      Cohen
    3. Re:Play with the big boys by Chaotic+Spyder · · Score: 1

      lethal mistake

      hrmmmm

      New OS with no big new features other than DRM..(no CLI.. no FS)

      new coke.......

      this could be intresting...

      --
      Losers whine about their best, Winners go home to fuck the prom queen
    4. Re:Play with the big boys by jurt1235 · · Score: 1

      TCO does in my opinion count very much for desktop use (50 to 100 desktops for every server). I did think of the desktop in my comment, but I think they will only compare the wrong things anyway (Eyecandy, vague group interaction features which nobody knows how to utilize etc).

      Anyway: Desktop != linux. Linux is the kernel, OSDL linux comparisson should then focus on the kernel if they even want to mention linux in a desktop comparisson again. Else they will just have to compare KDE/GNOME/other with OpenOffice/KOffice/other to MS Windows with MS office suite. The fact that it runs on a linux kernel, BSD kernel or any other kernel (GNU HURD(T)???), should not matter for a productivity comparisson, however one kernel might be more stable than another.

      --

      My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
    5. Re:Play with the big boys by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Microsoft comes out with their "New Coke" every two years or so.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  22. The Real thingh vs. The choice of a New Generation by Tune · · Score: 1

    With bevarages the actual test is relatively simple: its simply a matter of taste.

    Comparing software will take a few more minutes. Agreeing even over what should be tested is an open ended question. Having an independent study is one thing, but interpreting it and emphasizing what is "relavant" is another.

    So sure, this is an oportunity for OSDL to get some exposure, but Microsoft has a headstart with billions of marketing dollars to spend on spinning the story the way they like it.

    --
    The path of least resistence is steady deterioration: without constant effort/energy keeping information free, it becomes not free, as thermodynamics clearly st ates

  23. Would you believe... by Circlotron · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...the results of a study on the supposed negative effects of cigarette smoking that was funded by a tobacco company? Or the myth of global warming as espoused by an oil company? Or the necessity of being ready for war as delineated by a weapons manufacturer? Or the lack of corruption in politics as found by it's own members? Or the utter impossibility of paedophilia within a church because of the pronouncement of some most holy reverend blah blah... If there is money and power involved there is sure to be lies as well. That's why it is such a good thing that GNU/Linux is *FREE*

    1. Re:Would you believe... by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 1

      If there is money and power involved there is sure to be lies as well. That's why it is such a good thing that GNU/Linux is *FREE*

      You are such a Slashbot... Linux is free as in SPEECH, not BEER. Do you think IBM, RH or other Linux powerhouses never spew crap about free software? They make money out of free software, therefore they'll say any old thing that can pass OSS enthusiasts' (fortunately low) bullshit radar to promote it. Stop dreaming...

      --
      "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
    2. Re:Would you believe... by Circlotron · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I was really thinking of all the little guys that write code in their basements with no expectation of financial reward, only recognition by their peers. They don't need to tell fibs to get a larger audience for their work so that more money comes in. That is not their aim. Pardon my lack of eloquence.

    3. Re:Would you believe... by runderwo · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but regardless of the circumstances I have no choice but to join OSDL in being skeptical of any study that involves joints.

    4. Re:Would you believe... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, they only have to tell fibs to get a larger audience for their work in order to satisfy their egos and to feel that they haven't been simply wasting time, avoiding girls and showers for no reason - easily as much motivation to the individual contributor as money.

  24. No way... by mangus_angus · · Score: 2, Funny

    Not from the company that called Google a one hit wonder?! How can you NOT trust them?!

    1. Re:No way... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look at where google's income stems from, not only is there only one hit, there aren't even any B-sides.

  25. The real scare in this - and Microsoft's plight by tod_miller · · Score: 3, Informative

    Microsoft are pushing Software patents into Europe, the legal homeplace of Linux (I assume Linus keeps his legal entity there?).

    The most telling point in Microsofts tactics

    So blatant: look at this quite from that page, in H1 FFS:

    Indemnification Becomes Open Source's Nightmare and Microsoft's Blessing

    There is a linked PDF, also google brings up

    Which is telling as well

    Who funded SCO?

    Microsoft

    Who is pushing Patents in the eu?

    Microsoft

    Who is trying to get a litigation storm to damage and or destroy linux?

    Microsoft

    Who should probably get some more exposure about their bad activities?

    Microsoft

    But they don't, this kinda of cross-reporting (cause and effect) isn't done in mainstream media.

    Everyone will say Linux is getting sued, noone seems to say Microsoft is behind this financially, and patents politically.

    --
    #hostfile 0.0.0.0 primidi.com 0.0.0.0 www.primidi.com 0.0.0.0 radio.weblogs.com
  26. MOD PARENT UP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That is exactly how Microsoft have been posturing, the OSDL should have really siezed the moment.

  27. Maybe not... by BrokenHalo · · Score: 2, Funny
    ...the OSDL will have to handle this situation perfectly to avoid exposing an exploitable weakness.

    Or it might be over very quickly. Given MS's performance record at PR meetings, it might be just minutes before the MS test platform bluescreens or is trojaned or infested with spyware or malware.

    End of review, everybody packs their bags and goes home.

  28. Re:Dupe! by Nighttime · · Score: 0

    The only dupe around here would be you. They actually link back to that article in the summary at the top of the page. Nevermind RTFA, how about RTFS?

    --
    I've got a fever and the only prescription is more COBOL.
  29. Good can come out of this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In my case, it's prompted me to give Linux another go. It's obviousy that it has MS worried enough to go these lengths, so it's evident to me that it must be getting close to being good enough for Johnny Consumer. Hmmm, I think I'll give Ubuntu a try tonight...

  30. Re:The Real thingh vs. The choice of a New Generat by Vo0k · · Score: 1

    Taste is secondary. Marketing is primary. Original coke changed hands twice or thrice before it started gaining acceptance with HUGE marketing effort. I know quite a few "cola derivatives" that taste better, and cost way less, but they don't have the marketing power behind them. Same with software. What about MSIE vs Netscape? Which was better? But IE was bundled with the expensive but essential (don't buy the shit that IE is free. It's just included in price of Windows), so people stopped using (free) Netscape because they didn't have the option to pay just for Windows and not IE.

    --
    Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
  31. OSDL Board members by geoff+lane · · Score: 1

    The list of companies associated with OSDL looks like the Microsoft enemies list.

    IBM, Novell, HP, Intel etc.

    1. Re:OSDL Board members by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortuantely MS has enough cash reserves to buy off some of the board members, like they just did to the idiots at Sun. It would be a major win for humanity if the OSDL members could sign a public undertaking to the effect that all business dealings with MS are now terminated - not gonna happen :-(

  32. Re:The Real thingh vs. The choice of a New Generat by strider44 · · Score: 0

    With bevarages the actual test is relatively simple: its simply a matter of taste.

    Bullshit. Companies like coke thrive off of marketting not taste. Someone above mentioned "New Coke", and don't think that New Coke came about without heavy taste testing, and blindfolded people would have picked New Coke as the better tasting product, however it didn't have the prestige that the old formula had, people had the image of the old formula's taste as being excellent, and New Coke upset that.

    To support your argument, it's exactly the same in the software world. Microsoft Windows didn't gain its virtual monopoly off of making good software, they gained it from marketting.

  33. Tea? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "A study has found that coffee contributes more antioxidants - which have been linked with fighting heart disease and cancer - to the diet than cranberries, apples or tomatoes."

    Perhaps tea was excluded on purpose?

    If I remember correctly, tea consumption has increased in the recent years while coffee consumption dropped.

  34. Great track record by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 1

    Of course you have to trust them. Not only were they right about Google being a one hit wonder, but also were spot on back in 1995 about the Internet being a passing fad.

    --
    Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
  35. Missing the point? by synotia · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One of the major selling points of GNU/Linux and the rest of Open Source Software is that it's FREE as in speech, not beer.

    Harping on about TCO, in _money_ terms is not addressing some of the concerns that some big business' have about using Microsoft's (and other closed source) software. It's about vendor freedom, freedom to choose and change the software. Freedom to customize software on an organization's own terms.

    As the City of Munich's decision demonstrated when they chose a more expensive Linux package over Microsoft's, it aint necessarily about cash!

    OSDL analysis or not, favouring Linux or not, we might just find that TCO isn't all that relevant anyway.

  36. You couldn't possibly agree to this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I can see the M$ propaganda now: "Even Linux experts agree that ...some small negative thing blown totally out of proportion...."

    The only way committed and respected Linux people should agree to cooperate on a report would be if Microsoft would agree to 'equal air time' for Linux people to reply to their allegations in subsequent exploitation of that report.

    That's not going to happen - so just say 'No'.

  37. Run Forest Run! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    proposal to conduct a joint study on on deploying Microsoft Vs Linux.

    Am I seeing double or is someone beginning his morning stutter typed session again?

  38. 1 pg. Windows vs. Linux report here, cost Free. by MarkEst1973 · · Score: 1
    Summary: Windows and Linux both scale technologically, but only Linux scales financially. In the hands of the right people, Linux and open source software is a competitive advantage that cannot be matched by proprietary software.

    In a world where software is migrating to the server, it does not matter what operating system you use, which web server you deploy, or what language you choose for your software. What matters is that it works and works well.

    The executive summary mentioned that Linux and Open Source are a competitive advantage in the hands of the "right people." Who are these people? They are the best and the brightest that you want your company to hire. If you employ average or sub-average programmers to build your software on a system that constrains what you can do and limits the creativity of truly great programmers, your product will be average or sub-average. Conversely, if you hire the smartest and most creative programmers and give them limitless freedom in terms of what they can do with a system, you get the best product your money can buy.

    What freedoms are denied programmers using a closed source, proprietary OS and web server? The source code, of course, but few people are likely to actually understand and modify the Linux kernal. The freedom that is denied programmers is the "framework" provided the average programmer to work with.

    While not exactly open source and free, Java and J2EE provides freedoms not found in .NET and IIS. It drives some programmers crazy.

    J2EE is a specification and a series of interfaces, which are pieces of code that describe code. An incoming request to a webserver, for example, is defined by the interface HttpServletRequest. The actual implementation is left to your webserver vendor. You have the freedom to implement your own HttpServletRequest, as the author of this report has done. You can create a simple, mock Request that would provide just enough functionality to test your server-side code offline. You wouldn't need a running webserver for this. You wouldn't need testers pointing and clicking on a web page to test. It could be handled automatically in the middle of the night while you are sleeping.

    .NET and IIS, on the other hand, provide no such convenience. HttpRequest in .NET is a "sealed" class, meaning it cannot be extended for your own use. It is not an interface, so you canot provide your own definition of how it should behave. You are forced to use it one way only: the way Microsoft tells you to use it. The "average" programmer mentioned above is very likely to put much of an application's business logic in an ASPX "code behind" page. How can this be easily tested, offline, in an automated fashion? The short answer is it can't, or not easily, not without writing your own offline version of IIS. The .NET Framework dictates to the programmer exactly how they should write code. Expert programmers find this maddening.

    When expert programmer's control the entire software stack from webserver to OS and can choose the tools that provide them the most freedom, they will run circles around the average programmer who's forced to code in a way dictated by another. The expert programmers will win every time.

    In summary, you should choose the best tools that provide the most freedom to the smartest programmers you can find. Doing otherwise is to deliberately choose "average" or "sub-average", which is not a winning solution in the long run.

    1. Re:1 pg. Windows vs. Linux report here, cost Free. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think your executive summary could well have been shortened to "I'm a Java fanboy", not that I would deny anybody the freedom to spout such a mountain of absolute bullshit.

    2. Re:1 pg. Windows vs. Linux report here, cost Free. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Riiiight.
      Most "average" .NET developers I know have their business logic buried in a layer far from the .aspx page. Making testing a very trivial task with tools like nUnit.

    3. Re:1 pg. Windows vs. Linux report here, cost Free. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While the other replies to your obviously Java-biased post have mentioned some good points, I thought I'd mention a few that they missed. You'd completely ignoring the new desktop webserver (Cassini) and test infrastructure built into Visual Studio 2005. These provide exactly the functionality that you describe, but I'm not sure why anybody would architect a distributed app in that manner to begin with...

  39. Sun Tzu by ThoreauHD · · Score: 2, Informative

    Never take what the enemy offers you.

    Words to live by.

  40. I think OSDL should take it up by jawahar · · Score: 0

    With the condition that *open source version* of microsoft windows will be deployed with linux.
    OSDL needs source code to study on to what extent scalability and security are compromised for the "ease of use".

  41. have another cup.. by zogger · · Score: 1

    ..maybe you can keep track of your tabs then! hahaha! Anyway, the guy who did the coffee study has also been looking at tea. Just coffee has more antioxidants in it.

  42. Flawed analogy in this case by mj_1903 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Pepsi vs. Coke is a comparison over a marketable item that doesn't take much effort to change in your daily routine.

    Linux vs. Windows on the other hand is "geek" stuff that would take phenomenal effort from standard users and businesses to switch to either platform.

    Linux (and OSDL) are better suited to word of mouth and niche sectors of the market. Pepsi is better suited to TV ads and advertising slogans. OSDL should stay out of this comparison.

    1. Re:Flawed analogy in this case by gartogg · · Score: 3, Insightful

      On the other hand, all of the time microsoft spent discrediting linux as a stupid choice, and a non-option is suddely reversed; they ARE admitting that it's not ridiculous to think linux is a better option. That could play very well with big exec's who still think of linux as a fad or a 2nd rate hippy alternative for people without any money.

      --
      I'm a concientious .sig objector.
  43. Babies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The OSDL not taking this just proves that Linux users are babies that don't want to wake up and smell the coffee. Open your eyes - if you are right, Microsoft will get squashed in this study. But if you are wrong, there are going to be a lot of crybabies ranting about an improper study once again.

  44. One thing... by NemoX · · Score: 1

    that would throw this off, is the fact that when you do a Linux install, many distros include hordes of additional software. So, when I install Windows with all of my software, including office suite, development IDE's, web server and databases, it takes an entire weekend of constant rebooting and watching my pc like a hawk. With Linux, I just have to be there for the initial selections then, once the install starts, I just walk away until it's done (a few hours later, instead of the next day).

    Plus, each distro has different installations. Some are much better than others. That makes comparing an install more difficult. Also, an ease of install (or ease of anything, really) is subjective to the individual. For example, WinXP uses those stupid balloon pop-ups everywhere for "ease of use", personally I find them a great hindrance to my work, and would not consider them an "ease of use" feature.

    There are too many "what if's" in something like this. Microsoft has never played fare, why would they start now? They most certainly have something up their sleeve. Although, I am not overly concerned, as long as they do an install which includes a format, MS will lose. I can't remember how many times people get lost in their blue screen of formatting options. Of every one I know, that the single most common problem. Press F6 in the first 3 seconds for sata install...oh I need an extra driver?! gaa, press F3 and go find driver, try again, press L no, no R, crap F3 and redo...heh.

  45. Shadowboxing by NickFortune · · Score: 1
    Who cares? People don't switch to Linux based on MS recommendation.

    Every time MS launches a marketing campaign against Linux, it shoots itself in the corporate foot. Redmond is very low on corporate credibility in some circles, and every one of these nasty, transparent assaults of theirs just makes them look worse and Linux look more attractive.

    They're fighting themselves. They're shadowboxing and they don't even know it. And they can't understand why their knuckles bleed everytime they go for a knockout blow.

    I could almost feel sorry for them...

    --
    Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
    1. Re:Shadowboxing by utnow · · Score: 0

      They're marketing to the people who are looking at linux for the first time as thought they just 'might' give it a shot. They read this saying that linux is crap (true or not) and think again. nevermind... i'll just stick with good old faithful MS. They're not marketing to you fool. ;)

    2. Re:Shadowboxing by NickFortune · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I don't think it matters.

      The people they are targetting are, as you correctly point out, those wavering on the edge of Linux adoption.

      The trouble is that (IMHO) a great many of these people are moving primarily because they're pissed off at Microsoft. For this reason, they're unlikely to give much weight to a Microsoft sponsored survey and such propaganda may rebound against MS, further harming their credibility. We've already seen this happen with the Get The Facts campaign

      So that's why MS so desperately needs a linux insider to endorse the study. If ODSL come on board, then they can claim a degree of balance and impartiality to the report, however illusory it may in fact be.

      But without someone from inside the Linux camp, all they're going to do is dig a deeper hole for themselves.

      --
      Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
    3. Re:Shadowboxing by utnow · · Score: 0

      You'd be amazed at how small the anti-microsoft group actually is. People wavering on the edge of MS v. Linux are probably just looking at it because it's the other alternative. Business likes alternatives. It gives the illusion of choice. But recognize the mountain of obstacles that stand in the way of this option. Total software incompatibility (probably MS's fault, many linux projects focus on supporting MS's closed formats). Linux is still very user-unfriendly (not arguing this point as it's not pivitol, but linux still has a long way to go to catch up with MS's multimillion dollar user-interface design, and users like pointless bells, whistles and glitter, something that most users of linux aren't fans of), as well as unfamiliar to what most people are going to be using at home leading to high training costs.

      Add this marketing ploy from MS onto the stack of reasons NOT to make a switch to linux and I think it would be hard to convince your management to spend alot of money to change especially when what you already have is "working fine".

      (ps: i'm targeting the business example since a TCO analysis would be pointed squarely at businesses)

      I'm not saying the report is fair or unbiased, or that MS dosen't have exactly those intentions in their attempt to 'befriend' the ODSL. But I think that out of everything MS does, marketing is their strength (look at it, with inferior product they control the market) and I don't see this as the hole digging that you do.

      But you are entitled to your oppinion! :D

    4. Re:Shadowboxing by NickFortune · · Score: 1
      You'd be amazed at how small the anti-microsoft group actually is.

      I might at that, if you can support that claim.

      Add this marketing ploy from MS onto the stack of reasons NOT to make a switch to linux and I think it would be hard to convince your management to spend alot of money to change especially when what you already have is "working fine".

      Granted. But the PHB contingent have been firmly in the MS camp for a decade or more. They're pre-sold, since they'll go with whatever seems to threaten them the least.

      And yet Linux still continues spread in spite of them, so these wouldn't seem to be the people Microsoft must convince.

      But I think that out of everything MS does, marketing is their strength (look at it, with inferior product they control the market) and I don't see this as the hole digging that you do.

      Then why do they want the OSDL on board?

      The trouble is that I don't think this is a marketing problem, and I don't think marketing can fix it. At best Microsoft stands to slow the rate of adoption for a while. But as long as the underlying problems remain, people will keep coming back for another look.

      The factors that encouraged the spread of Linux to it's current level of deployment wre going to continue to operate. This is an Out-Of-Band problem for MS. We just don't register on their scanners.

      But you are entitled to your oppinion! :D

      You too, I'm sure :D

      --
      Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
  46. "Microsoft has never played fare..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Huh? They always play fare. Nothing from microsoft is free, you always pay a fare to microsoft. Linux can be fare-free.

    However, Microsoft does never play fair. Say what you mean, you illiterate moron.

    1. Re:"Microsoft has never played fare..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if you want to get technical:

      Microsoft is a company, thus capitalized.
      Linux is actually GNU/Linux.
      Do not use "They" before actually listing a proper noun to which it refers in a paragraph.
      "Huh" is slang, thus not proper English.

      This is one thing that pisses me off about these types of posts. People are always so fast to correct other people, and claim perfection on themselves, yet cannot properly write English. So, STFU and go back to your hole you ignorant jacakss.

      Slashdot is a forum, not an English column. If you actually read something in which I cared about proper English, spelling, grammar, etc. you would know it. Nothing I write in these forums is of any concern. You're one of those people who drive slow in the left lane, obstruct traffic, then flip someone off when they cut you off because you are blocking their ability to turn left at a light, aren't you?

    2. Re:"Microsoft has never played fare..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "... Microsoft does never play fair."

      Like your post is any more literate?

  47. really? by danielk1982 · · Score: 0

    Trust me, if a company invests in Red Hat Linux, they *will* be stuck with Red Hat Linux for a while.

    Its very hard changing Distros.

  48. As a certain Fark.com Cliche would say... by kinkadius · · Score: 2, Funny

    IT'S A TRAP!

    but seriously this doesn't look good. why would someone talk to a competitor (or a virus that's plaquing the earth, whatever is your fancy) and say that they just want to have a friendly happy analysis?

    Anybody remember the saying "keep your friends close, but your enemies closer?"

    --
    www.omglolh4x.com
    1. Re:As a certain Fark.com Cliche would say... by Reliant-1864 · · Score: 1

      IBM, Red Hat, Novell are all competitors, yet they manage to work together very well. In most circumstances, competitors are friendly with each other, they can be adversaries while remaining curteous and friendly.

      In this case though, Microsoft has shown itself time and time again that it can not be trusted. They see their competition not as adversaries, but as enemies.

      --
      The universe is held together with duct tape and karma. What goes around, comes around, and gets stuck to your forehead.
  49. Marketing isn't seen as FUD anymore than others by PhYrE2k2 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I think the world has built up a healthy skepticism about anything coming from Microsoft, so another $10m FUD marketing is gonna go down the drain.


    Ummm- no. Go into most big corporations or small businesses (at least in North America) and find that most people 'know' Windows is the biggest, strongest, and best thing they need. They 'know' it works, 'know' it does what they want, 'know' it's compatible with their software, hardware, customers, and supply chain.

    Most people don't see Microsoft's marketing as FUD anymore than they see Coke and Pepsi's marketing as FUD.

    We are the Slashdot crew who whine about big corp squishing the little guy who just so happens to use Linux. Don't think for a second your views represent management and a large majority of IT people out there. I run into at least three a day who go on about how Windows and dot-NET are the only things they would ever dream of using.

    -M
    --

    when you see the word 'Linux', drink!
    1. Re:Marketing isn't seen as FUD anymore than others by miskatonic+alumnus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sadly, you're correct. At the community college where I teach, the whole IT department worships Microsfoft products. I teach mathematics, and Microsoft tools are so woefully inadequate for formatting mathematical documents that for years I wrote them out by hand. Finally, I learned LaTeX, and convinced them to let me install it on one machine in our tiny teachers lounge. Later, they removed it, claiming it had broken their e-mail client. What a bunch of geniuses. Now, the only use I have for their equipment is to surf the net and print .pdf files that I prepare at home.

    2. Re:Marketing isn't seen as FUD anymore than others by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And those people are not valid targets for FOSS anyway. They essentially have unlimited budgets and a mandate that it has to work and must have a vendor who can provide support. A big company can lose millions of dollars a day if the software has an issue.

      The FOSS market is targeted at people who have limited budgets. They want it to work but can forgo vendor support since they are smaller and can't afford to spend 80% more to get 99.9% reliability instead of 99.7% reliability.

      Part of the reason FOSS has been making inroads is that in some cases (web servers) it provides 99.999% reliablity AND it's free/cheaper.

      Microsoft doesn't want to lose the little customers because they are the only ones who are really paying $500 a seat for office. The big companies are paying $50 a seat (Hell- I can BUY a copy of most microsoft software for $20 to use at home since I work at a big company).

      Most people I know see microsoft marketing as fud, and the company as being dishonest, unethical, and scummy. The first level that seems to change is up at the VP level where the decisions are usually made.

      Despite the downsides, microsoft does deliver a lot of support and reliablity in return for lockin and large amounts of money. That is good- but they embrace and extend that to other products we could be getting for free so there is a definate tradeoff.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    3. Re:Marketing isn't seen as FUD anymore than others by d34thm0nk3y · · Score: 1

      They 'know' it works, 'know' it does what they want, 'know' it's compatible with their software, hardware, customers, and supply chain.

      Well it helps that in this example it is actually true 99% of the time. It is when they claim that free is more expensive than $300 that people question the results.

  50. Go ahead... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    although it really doesn't matter. The OSDL does not equal linux and open source, Microsoft is attempting to find an opponent to kill, or at least to generate FUD and sway public opinion. Open source however is ubiquitous, that is the beauty of GPL.
    I would suggest that OSDL not enter into an agreement with Microsoft, or if they do then they make certain significant demands upon Microsoft.
    Finally, good can come from this because any weakness found in linux/open source will receive attention and be quickly remedied, again pointing out one of the benefits to open source.

  51. Troll? by QMO · · Score: 1

    I thought that was a curernt event funny.

    --
    Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
  52. The correct answer: by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 3, Insightful

    OSDL is a development laboratory, has no products to sell, and thus no interest in participating in such marketing stunts. Microsoft should ask Red Hat instead.

  53. Watch out now for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Linux and Windows are really quite similar... ESPECIALLY Windows!

  54. It's a diversionary tactic by QuietLagoon · · Score: 2, Interesting
    If the ODSL were to agree to this study, they would be sucked into a maelstrom created by Microsoft to divert the ODSL's attention away from more important matters.

    How long would Microsoft drag out the negotiations regarding precisely what should be tested and the methodologies that would be used?

    How long would Microsoft drag out the guidelines for interpreting the results of the testing that is performed?

    What more productive things could the ODSL people be doing instead of being sucked into this quagmire?

  55. Get The RIGHT Facts by jkrise · · Score: 4, Informative

    I think the OSDL should politely decline the invite to spend... er waste good money on stupid research and launch a counter capmaign "Get the Right Facts" or some such.

    Facts:
    1. Microsoft is a convicted monopolist - Fact.
    2. Microsoft has written software and spent billions - specifically to crush competition and reduce the user experience - FACT.
    3. Microsoft fudged a demo during trial - under OATH - Fact.
    etc.... instead of simply declining and being labelled a coward.

    --
    If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
  56. There's always been one thing I don't get by ZakuSage · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Why the hell doesn't Microsoft just tell the truth? If they had a get the facts program saying that most of the programs available for Windows don't have a Linux equivilent, especially those that are a little obscure, and that the vast majority of games don't work on Linux, it'd be reason for home users and corperate users to not use Linux. There's got to be some people out there not taking this into account, and all the stuff they're saying now most people don't believe or trust. And if they were honest they wouldn't get such bad press about it all the time!

    1. Re:There's always been one thing I don't get by Foofoobar · · Score: 1

      Actually, most games work great on Linux out of box. It's just that you have to install Cedega. Still, they all run like a charm.

      And there are barely any Microsoft programs that don't have an open source equivalent: Exchange? Open Exchange. SQL Server? My SQL and PostgreSQL. And in aklot of cases (most often the norm), they outperform.

      The only thing Microsoft has going for them is marketing and an addicted user base. Open source though is starting a methodone clinic near you to kick that Microsoft habit.

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
    2. Re:There's always been one thing I don't get by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I agree. Games are a serious hole for linux. I keep windows for games. I can get a cheap $400 computer AND winXP gaming machine (toss in a $200 video card and you have 60% of the performance of a top end machine for 25% of the price.)

      Game software and some custom software are developed only for windows. These are valid points.

      A counter to that is, if you can find a java version (or other language that runs on any OS/hardware)- it's better because it works on windows AND any other OS. And it works on windows when windows changes. I've had some custom windows software that stopped working after required patches or new OS versions.

      But that's not an option with games much of the time. If Linux ever gets to 20%+ of the home market, that will change. And once it does, the home market will tip to linux very fast. At some point I expect to see good linux games that are not yet available for windows.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    3. Re:There's always been one thing I don't get by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because home users are NOT Microsoft's customers (not in any major way). Microsoft's real customers are OEMs, Enterprise (what people use at work, they will use at home), and Developers.

    4. Re:There's always been one thing I don't get by fred+fleenblat · · Score: 1

      I think microsoft doesn't want people to think about a windows PC as a gaming machine...that's what the Xbox is for.

      The get-the-facts stuff is oriented to corporate use because then msft can get follow-on money for all their office, exchange, and corporate apps and servers.

      It's a lies anyway...it just something that an IT dept manager can print out and give to his PHB and say, look, here's some research about why shouldn't change anything. Now the IT dept manager can keep writing checks to microsoft and not have to do any real work like installing linux and trying it out.

    5. Re:There's always been one thing I don't get by Foofoobar · · Score: 1

      LOL! Omigod I call so much bullshit! They are Microsoft's customers because Dell, HP and all the others cram Microsoft down their throats and they cram it down their throats because they can't sell anything else or lose on on costs due to Microsoft's licensing agreements. Then their competitors would gain the edge on price and they would suffer.

      Yeah, like they have a choice. They'll have a choice when Dell sells their crap with Linux installed on the desktop... not just the server.

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
  57. Marketing and the reality by theolein · · Score: 1

    While I'm pretty sure that Microsoft can and will use an OSDL refusal to partake in this study as fodder for yet another attack on Linux along the lines of "Linux refuses to partake in neutral and unbiased comparison of the two operating systems which shows their fear of real competition bla bla bla", OSDL would be literally insane to take MS up on the offer and they seem to relaise this, thank God.

    MS, IMO, wants this study for a certain reason: They are having terrible trouble finding a source target, a tangible thing to abuse, threaten and dominate, in Linux. Attacking Linux itself is extremely difficult as there are no less than two major enterpise level commercial distros: SuSE/Novell and Red Hat, and numerous non-commercial ones with very good reputations, such as Ubuntu, Debian, Slackware, Knoppix etc. In fact the only thing they really have in common is Linus, who, surprise surprise, works at OSDL.

    MS, IMO; perceives OSDL as the source of Linux and has, IMO, determined that damaging OSDL's reputation would damage all the Linux distros' reputations. There is no way on earth in heaven or hell that Microsoft would let this comparison be truly neutral. There's simply too much at stake for them. They would almost certainly try to force certain factors into the test that would push the results in Microsoft's favour, be it by providing a hacked version of Windows that runs faster on the compared tasks, or comparing toolsets (Visual Studio etc), or by forcing OSDL partakers into NDAs and non competitive agreements for seeing MS code.

    The reality, though, is that Linux, if it doesn't take the bait for rubbish like this, will continue to grow in the enterprise space. Buyers might be confused by MS marketing, but I'm pretty sure they trust IBM's backing of Linux, and no amount of FUD marketing by MS will change that.

  58. Its about competition by burnin1965 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You are correct, use what works best for the job, but how do you know which is best for the job if you never compare the competition head to head?

    I personally don't like the "use what works" reasoning because in most cases its used as a cop out or excuse to maintain the status quo.

    That said I don't pay much attention to most of the studies that are thrown back and forth because 1) there is a lot of misinformation (pretty much from one side, yeah you know which side), and 2) most of the studies fail to start at the beginning before any features are speced or any pricing is quoted.

    The first step in determining what works for the job is to examine the fine print. That is the licensing agreement which binds you once you make your decision.

    http://members.iinet.net.au/~cybersrc/about/compar ing_the_gpl_to_eula.pdf

    If you do your due diligence and start with the licensing then in most cases you won't need to go any further.

    Statistically speaking it may make sense to ignore the licensing as most individuals and companies do, however, that wont play well as a defense if the licensing and your practices are in conflict and the licensee demands retribution.

  59. It's lose, lose for Linux by sheldon · · Score: 1

    If OSDL backs out, Microsoft says "See, they are afraid to compare their stuff to ours."

    On the other hand, I think we all know that Microsoft doesn't boast without substance. They wouldn't be making this challenge if they didn't think they were going to come out on top.

    I don't understand what you mean about reporting the same distortions and negative PR they always do. Isn't this what people do? Don't Linux zealots continually claim that Windows is insecure and poorly written?

  60. Re:The Real thingh vs. The choice of a New Generat by Moofie · · Score: 1

    "that taste better" to you...hence, a matter of taste.

    There are sodas I like better than Coke, but they don't cost less. (Stewart's, Jones, etc...)

    --
    Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
  61. Re:Obvious by Master+of+Transhuman · · Score: 1


    Bwahahahahahah!!!

    I get first post and the Microsoft shills moderate me down to flamebait!

    Bwahahahahaha!!! Losers! Your retaliation is lame!

    Give it up! Give...it...up! Is that all you got, huh? Are you nuts? Come at me!

    --
    Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
  62. Exclude interoperablidy costs, and maybe by Rob+Y. · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Maybe the OSDL should say, "sure, we'll participate in a TCO study that excludes the costs of interoperating with existing Windows apps and infrastructure". In other words, a study based strictly on the inherent quality of the two systems.

    And if you want to do a study that doesn't exclude that stuff, give us the info we need to implement interoperability, and we'll participate in that too.

    --
    Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
  63. Get the facts dude by DickBreath · · Score: 1
    It wasn't Microsoft claiming that FOSS was "communistic".

    It was Steve Ballmer saying that FOSS is an intellectual property cancer attaching itself to everything.

    It was Jim Alchin (#4 man at Microsoft at the time) saying that FOSS is un-American and that legislators need to be educated about the danger. (Let me get out my checkbook Mr. congressman... how much education do you need today?)

    Various people have said that FOSS supporters are communists.

    See? It wasn't Microsoft after all. Microsoft are the good guys.

    We don't hear any more of this kind of trash talk from Microsoft. (Nowdays it all comes from "independent" analysts and "reporters".) I'm sure that Microsoft has only our best interests in mind.



    The other phrase is "embrace, extend, extinguish". For example:
    Try new Microsoft Linux! The only Linux with the quality and security that you have come to expect from Microsoft! Other Linuxes do not have the quality and security that you would expect from Microsoft.
    Microsoft has embraced Linux and added a number of extended features, such as DRM, ActiveX, COM+, and much other proprietary wonderful goodness that will enable Microsoft Linux to extinguish the competition.
    --

    I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
  64. Scepticism of a Corporate Lawyer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    'As far as working with Microsoft on a study, Microsoft could probably find one negative line on Linux in a 100-page research report that it would spend $10 million marketing while ignoring the other 99 pages...'

    Now there's the corporate mindset that's been missing from the open-source movement all these years. It's about time we caught up with the suits.

  65. Impossible to compare by Dollyknot · · Score: 1
    How on earth can it be possible to compare open source with closed source. Closed source is a kind of mental slavery. Owning ideas is not far off from owning people.

    Operating systems are mathematical - not art.

    Chemistry used to be called alchemy. Alchemy was a process where researchers kept everything a secret, because they wanted to be able to turn base metal into gold, so only they would benefit. Bgates has applied this process to computer science, in doing so has made himself the richest man on the planet.

    Science became a dominant process in human affairs because alchemists gave up the idea that discoveries made should only benefit them. Please try to imagine what a fine operating system we would have now, had M$ released the source code to win 95. Bgates made himself disgustingly rich + his cronies and shareholders, but made the rest of us poorer.

    --
    It's called an elephant's trunk whereas it is in fact, an elephant's nose, a nose by any other name would smell as sweet
  66. First they ignore you... by fbg111 · · Score: 1

    ... then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. Looks like MS is fighting now, but they're only able to fight on the PR front. With Vista appearing to be a minor upgrade of XP, it seems they're not able to fight on the innovation front, where a host of competitors - Linux, OSS, OSX, Google, etc - are attacking. What's that I see written on the wall?

    --
    Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams
  67. Anyone still using M$ or Linux?Isn't it all Apple? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just convince the COO or CFO to switch and it will trickel down from there!

  68. Asking MS to tell them what they want to hear by fbg111 · · Score: 1

    "Customers have asked me for an analysis on Linux," Taylor said in the statement.

    Those customers are obviously PHB's simply needing justification for going w/ Microsoft. They've already made up their minds, and may have already made the purchase and now have to justify it to a boss who got wind of "free" OSS. It's like, "hey GM, can you get me a comparison of your cars vs Ford's so I can make a more informed buying decision?" Translation: "Please tell me what I should want to hear, and then tell me what you've told me I want to hear, so I can justify to my boss and keep my secretary and corner office."

    --
    Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams
  69. We got it wrong by Hosiah · · Score: 1

    A penguin shouldn't have been the Linux mascot. That should have been a road-runner. With Bill Gates as Wile E. Coyote, hatching one bone-head scheme after another tryng to catch it...

  70. It sounds like this to me.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Customers have asked me for an analysis on Linux," Taylor said in the statement. "While we had done some research in our Linux and open-source lab, there's not yet any substantial, fact-based research out there on Linux to help customers make value based IT decisions."

    This sounds like "Hey, there ain't any sustaintial fact-based research out there on Linux that I can persuade Microsoft's customers not to deploy Linux in their organisation!"

  71. The asymmetrical relationship between MS & FOS by adminispheroid · · Score: 1
    This article at Groklaw raises an interesting point (ok, it's a really long article, and the part I'm talking about is around paragraph 4), which I will expand on somewhat, about the competition between Windows and Linux. And that is, that Linux is competition for Windows, but Windows is not competition for Linux.

    Microsoft wants Windows running on every computer in the world, because they make more money that way. If a computer is running Linux that could be running Windows, then Linux is eating their lunch; so to Microsoft, Linux is competition.

    On the other hand, the crowd of people who brought us Linux don't have a similar need to have every computer in the world running Linux. You could call Windows competition to Redhat, Novell, and other Linux companies, but they are a small part of the giant crowd of people that produce Linux and all the other FOSS that runs on it. There are some benefits to an expanded user base, as it expands the pool of potential contributors to improving the software. And it's gratifying. But the FOSS crowd do not share Microsoft's need to be the only OS in the world. Hence Microsoft is not competition for Linux.

    Seen in this light, it's clear why Microsoft wants more "studies" as FUD fodder, and why OSDL has no interest.