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Libraries Use DRM to Expire Audiobooks

Valleye writes "CNN is reporting that some US libraries are using Microsoft Media DRM to automatically 'return' audiobooks checked out of their catalog. A patron with a valid library card visits a library Web site to borrow a title for, say, three weeks. When the audiobook is due, the patron must renew it or find it automatically "returned" in a virtual sense: The file still sits on the patron's computer, but encryption makes it unplayable beyond the borrowing period."

99 of 524 comments (clear)

  1. I wish my library had this by benna · · Score: 2, Funny

    I would certainly read (or listen) more that way.

    --
    "It is not how things are in the world that is mystical, but that it exists." -Ludwig Wittgenstein
    1. Re:I wish my library had this by tacocat · · Score: 4, Funny

      I would think this is a major detraction from my libraries largest source of income, me and late fees.

  2. DRM by Fuzzy_Nuts · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A perfect use for DRM tech. DRM always catches a bad rep. I for one am glad to see that technology still has a place in everyday america.

    --
    ReachInternet.com Wireless, Campus Area Networks, Office Networking.
    1. Re:DRM by jurt1235 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The second fair use of DRM I have seen sofar. Really using the idea how it should, not to protect something somebody bought a license for, but just to use it in a way the person agreed on beforehand (you borrow the book for 3 weeks is a pre agreed way).

      One question though: Does it run on linux?

      --

      My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
    2. Re:DRM by Lussarn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The reason this DRM scheme sounds better is in the wording. You loan/rent, when you loan/rent you know you can't resell. You know you can't keep it forever. You know the copy isn't yours at all.

      This scheme actully looks very much like other DRM schemes (like the one where student books where destroyed after the semester). The difference is that in that case it was labeled as "buying". Of course no such thing as first sale existed. I have yet to see a DRM scheme where you can resell the goods you own, and therefore I call all existing schemes as renting, and cheating on the consumer who thought they bought the goods.

      I know there are some here who defend this with "you buy a licence to play the music", not a licence to own it. That may be true but it isn't in anyway expressed clear enough when you "buy" it.

    3. Re:DRM by DeafByBeheading · · Score: 2, Informative

      "One question though: Does it run on linux?"

      Not according to the article. It's WMA, and also won't run on iPods. Although this seems to be done through the library essentially outsourcing to another company, so perhaps some Linux-friendly companies will get into this...

      --
      Telltale Games: Bone, Sam and Max
    4. Re:DRM by Digital+Pizza · · Score: 2, Informative

      Can't MPlayer play WMA files? I swear I remember using it to do that, although I doubt it could get around the DRM anyway. Might be worth a shot, though.

      --
      We apologize for the inconvenience.
    5. Re:DRM by Fuzzy_Nuts · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Thats not what this article was about. The reason it sounds better is becuase it's a fair use system. Presumably the library bought the book, and therefore own a copy of the book. You then agree to borrow the book for a certian amount of time. Whereas when you DRM protect a CD, you cannot let your friend borrow the DRM protected content because you not your friend own the DRM. You cannot sell the DRM to your friend because thats not how it works. The reason this sounds better is because it's an actual fair use agreement.

      --
      ReachInternet.com Wireless, Campus Area Networks, Office Networking.
    6. Re:DRM by Technician · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The second fair use of DRM I have seen sofar.

      Unfortunately for many DRM raises the ugly incompatibility problem. It isn't an Audio CD or MP3. As such it simply won't work in my car during my commute.

      On the flip side, stuff in public domain (there is lots) is most often downloadable in MP3 format, can be burnt on a CD as either Audio or MP3 and works fine with most MP3 players.

      Fine, I won't listen to the latest Clancy novel, but I can listen to Abbot and Costello, Grocho Marx, Amos & Andy, Jack Benney, The Bickersons, Orson Wells, countless radio mystery shows, and etc.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    7. Re:DRM by baadger · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The whole point of renting or leasing (besides the fact that it's a good idea if don't actually WANT to keep the item).. is it's cheaper.

      The reason it's cheaper is when you rent a DVD or borrow a book from the library it goes back to be rented or borrowed by others, and so eventually initial costs are covered and profits are made.

      This all breaks down with any digital format because items can be duplicated thousands of of times with almost a zero cost (bandwidth or media costs) after their original purchase. Not 'returning' the item won't lead to a loss for the library.

      If I borrow something from the library it's unlikely I'm going to want to borrow it again anyway (otherwise I would have bought it), the library isn't going to get anything more from me for that item, so why is expiring the audiobook necessary? Don't they trust me not to duplicate it and give it to others?

      No, the reason they can't do this the authors/publishers of said items are after $$$ per reader. This is why IMO more authors should embrace the likes of the street performer protocol

      Yeah so it's a more favourable use of DRM, protects the borrowed items from damage or loss, reduces costs of recovery and administration and keeps the library's collection constant and available to all all the time. On the other hand it just shows up other debates often seen here on Slashdot.

    8. Re:DRM by St.+Arbirix · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But doesn't this seem just a little... silly? There's something about using new technology specifically to perpetuate antiquated systems of ownership that smacks of being naive. It's as if we can only let technology revolutionize things so far before we get uncomfortable and need to figure out ways to reinforce old habits despite the fact that they are completely unnecessary anymore.

      --
      Direct away from face when opening.
    9. Re:DRM by irc.goatse.cx+troll · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And exemplifies just how evil it really is.
      What if we couldn't read Einsteins papers because our key is no longer valid? Or if all copies of 1984 suddenly have their keys revoked? DRM in libraries is a horrible thought. I don't care if the terms are fair so far, the concept is bad enough on its own to warrant boycott. You can't accept this stuff in your life if you want society to be an acceptable place in 20 years.

      --
      Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx
    10. Re:DRM by Total_Wimp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One question though: Does it run on linux?

      Nah. It doesn't run Mac either.

      The problem with this DRM doesn't have much to do with fairnes, but rather with lock-in. If you borrow from this library you better be sporting Windows.

      This line from the article kind of sums it up: Just as the lack of a standard digital audio format has fragmented the music download market, it affects audiobooks.

      In days past, you could buy, rent, borrow from just about anyone and be able to play it on the prevailing media player of the day. In the new digital millenium, you lock yourself out of a significant part of the media world based on your choice of player.

      Yeah, you could point to Beta and VHS as an example of what happened in the past, but at least one of those choices was a choice for a variety of companies who make sorce material and media players. This is more like Beta vs. Beta; no matter what you choose, you choose lock-in to one company or another.

      I happen to own a Windows SmartPhone, so I could borrow from this library, but I couldn't let my daughter use it on her iPod. If this happend ot be FairPlay instead of WMA, then she could have borrowed it and I'd be stuck. The only way for consumers to win with DRM will be for all the players to agree on one standard, but the weather forcast still looks quite hot in hades at the moment.

      TW

    11. Re:DRM by jurt1235 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Buy an DRM-WMA enabled car stereo system. The bad part I guess will be that once your book expires, your car will stop too (-:

      --

      My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
    12. Re:DRM by Grab · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't they trust me not to duplicate it and give it to others?

      No, because they're not bloody stupid. If you hand it around, that's less income for the authors and publishers, who are the people enforcing these rules.

      For music, it makes some sense to have free downloads. Musicians traditionally make their money from gigs and not from CD sales, so more enlightened musicians say "go on, give your friends a copy" in the hope that said friends will be along to the next gig.

      But that logic falls down with books. It's been a long time since authors would go on tours and have people pay to hear them read their books. Audio books are alive and well, but only on a recording basis, so the only way of getting money off them is to charge per recording.

      The SPP and other systems are a nice idea. Trouble is that experience shows they don't work. Even Stephen King couldn't get enough people to pay for a story delivered by installments about 4 years ago - and if he couldn't make it work, you can forget about anyone else doing it.

      Bottom line is that there's a range of prices people will pay for anything, with low and high limits. The low limit is usually "gratis" or close to. If charged, they'll willingly pay anywhere within that range (maybe a bit more unwillingly as you go towards the high limit, but they'll still pay). But if they're asked to donate, they'll typically donate the low limit amount - which often amounts to "gratis". If you get a physical item, people are more likely to put money in the pot, because they can see that the article has cost something to produce. But a file? It costs nothing to upload/download, so why pay for it unless you have to? Like it or not, that's the attitude you're dealing with, and that's why no author will use the SPP to make their living.

      Grab.

    13. Re:DRM by Shaper_pmp · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Bingo.

      I don't even think that the usual advice given ("simply don't buy the DRMed media") is realistic. This is my culture. I contribute to it, and I have a right to take part in it. My culture is disseminated (and knitted together) by its mass-media - its music, its TV shows, its films, its art.

      If I refuse to partake of the mass-media, I inevitably divorce myself from the culture - I have proven this to myself by not owning a TV for two years. Although it started as simple economics (I was a student, and too broke to afford the licence), I now can't watch much TV before it begins to annoy me (product placement, obvious bias in "impartial" shows, and all... the... damned... advertising...). The net result of this is that I have become more familiar with "online" culture, and somewhat divorced from "mainstream" culture - I can't discuss TV programs with friends, unless they're the ones I download. I can't discuss topical news items, unless they're mirrored on the BBC/CNN/Reuters news sites.

      If I refuse to suffer DRMed media, in the future I will in effect be denied access to my own culture.

      Put simply, I resent an oligarchy of over-compensated middlemen making me choose between freedom and being an outcast in my own society.

      I view it as justified civil disobedience to crack and disseminate circumventions for DRM, and view the current use of DRM the same way I'd view slavery - unethical, unjust and an infrigement of my personal liberty.

      --
      Everything in moderation, including moderation itself
    14. Re:DRM by sukotto · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It seems like the US congress will continue to extend copyright indefinitely. If so, nothing that is currently under copyright will *ever* be released to the public domain.

      I guess the old joke is true. "If pro is the opposite of con, what's the opposite of progress?"

      --
      Come play free flash games on Kongregate!
    15. Re:DRM by IpalindromeI · · Score: 2, Informative

      Project Gutenberg has audio books for download in MP3 format. Currently only 31 are read by a human, but they do have over 350 that sound like they were read by a Speak & Spell.

      --

      --
      Promoting critical thinking since 1994.
    16. Re:DRM by Total_Wimp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I downloaded "The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes" from PG a few days ago for a car trip. I was very pleasently surprised at the quality of the book. The reader had a great voice, great pacing and a terrific feal for the attitudes and emotions of the characters.

      I sure hope they get some more talented humans to do some reading. I'd much rather stare at a wall than listen to the computer read versions.

      For all of you non-programmers looking for a way to 'give back' for all the software you make use of, this would be an excellent place to start.

      TW

    17. Re:DRM by Shaper_pmp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Forgive me... Firstly, I never meant to imply that downloaders and filesharers are in any way equivalent to luminaries such as Ghandi or MLK - you made that comparison, not me. I merely intended to explain that I knowingly break the law for similar reasons to the ones they offered - namely, to protest perceived injustice. I am perfectly capable of purchasing all the CDs and DVDs I want, but I refuse to for two reasons:

      1) By establishing an oligarchy and purchasing legislation to protect it, the *AA have secured an unfair and undemocratic monopoly on popular media, and therefore culture.

      2) I refuse to obey the law (and not download) when the very people loudly telling me not to are unethical (draconian artist contracts, inadequate artist compensation and self-serving extensions of copyright), or even convicted criminals (monopoly practices, payola, etc), themselves.

      I do purchase DVDs and CDs from local and unsigned artists - in fact, I actually run a promotions company dedicated to promoting them. I merely refuse to support an industry cartel that seems to have no concept of ethics, and that's presently engaged in invading and occupying my own damn culture.

      Secondly, I recommend you read my post again. I never once claimed to use exactly the same tactics as Ghandi, merely that I considered what I do to be Civil Disobedience. Your appear to believe Ghandi's Tactics == Civil Disobedience, but this is merely a shortcoming in your own understanding of the term. I also recommend you read the Wikipedia article you linked to for a handy definition of Civil Disobedience: "Civil disobedience encompasses the active refusal to obey certain laws, demands and commands of a government or of an occupying power without resorting to physical violence."

      No mention of voluntarily submitting to arrest, and no mention of the necessity of notifying authorities before you do it. Merely the refusal to follow a rule or law you consider unjust.

      In addition, while I don't believe strongly enough to stand upand become a martyr by daring them to sue me, I do talk about downloading and filesharing (legal and illegal) to non-techies, and help other people to learn how to use the applications whenever they show interest.

      Ghandi's precise tactics (Satyagraha) are only a subset of civil disobedience, not the whole thing. Even the Wikipedia article you linked to make this clear.

      --
      Everything in moderation, including moderation itself
  3. But... by postgrep · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Couldn't someone just use an audio program (cubase, cakewalk etc) to make a loopback recording, effectively making a non-DRM copy? This technology seems effective in expiration dates, but ineffective against piracy. Still.

    1. Re:But... by cronotk · · Score: 3, Informative

      Dunno how the laws handle it where you live, but in Germany it's absolutely legal to make copies this way (as long as you do NOT give it to others).
      We have a right to make a private copy as long as we do not BREAK a copy-protection.

      Lucky us :)

    2. Re:But... by postgrep · · Score: 2, Funny

      Very lucky you. Here in Australia, it's technically illegal to video tape things off tv. Despite the fact that VHS is now played off as "dead".

    3. Re:But... by Information+Architec · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sure, you could photocopy the whole thing too, but it's still an ingringement of the copyright terms. Why shouldn't a library protect itself against selfish users who can't return something on time so that others can use it? And no, the fact that this is a digital copy doesn't change anything, as the library still has a license to distirbute a finite number of copies at a time. Just because it is Microsoft's DRM in question, shouldn't distract from the fact that this is a very intelligent use of the concept. There are those who'll never accept any limitations on their pirating (see "Fuck that" below) or copying but surely the key issue is policy not technology? Where it's used and how, not who's produced it?

  4. Library Checkout System Outdated? by taskforce · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Isn't the whole point in returning a book to a library because there are a finite ammount of copies for people to read, so it would be unfair if you kept them for a long time.

    If digital audiobooks can have infinite copies made of them and distributed to the Library's members then is there actually a need to have them checked back in?

    --
    My 3D Texturing Skinning work (under construction)
    1. Re:Library Checkout System Outdated? by MaineCoon · · Score: 4, Informative

      It is a licensed work, with a finite number of licenses.

      This is similiar to group licensing schemes, where software is licensed for a number of seats at a company but licensing is handled by a server. A limited number of users can use the software at any time. If someone needs to use it and the licenses are used up, someone else must stop using it for the time being (or more licenses must be purchased).

      --
      Hunt your preferred prey at Aliens vs Predator MUD. Join the war at avpmud.com port 4000
    2. Re:Library Checkout System Outdated? by BorgDrone · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And this is exactly the problem with DRM and the whole copyright thing.

      You have to return a normal dead-tree book because there are only a few copies, and making more copies costs time, materials and money. Because of this, the product is scarce and thus market forces (supply/demand) apply.

      Digital media, however, can be copied without any significant costs whatsoever, there is no longer a 'real' scarcity. The publishers are still trying to sell the work on a per-copy basis like they always did, combined with negligible reproduction costs this means lots-of-$$$. Unfortunately for the publishers, consumers are recognizing that there the products scarcity is purely fictional, and they don't accept this.

    3. Re:Library Checkout System Outdated? by Sancho · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How, then, would you propose to sell "digital media"? If you don't like the per-copy scheme, describe a scheme that will work and allow all people involved to be making the same amount of money they're making now (not an unreasonable stipulation, I think).

    4. Re:Library Checkout System Outdated? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "If you don't like the per-copy scheme, describe a scheme that will work and allow all people involved to be making the same amount of money they're making now (not an unreasonable stipulation, I think)."

      By that logic, buggy whip manufacturers could have "reasonably stipulated" that all autos be sold with buggy whips, so that all people involved continue making the same amount of money.

      Face it, advances in technology disrupt businesses. Some make a lot more money as a result, others go out of business.

    5. Re:Library Checkout System Outdated? by vrai · · Score: 2, Interesting
      That sounds suspiciously like the Labour Theory of Value. That the worth of something is dependent solely on the amount of labour put in to creating it. It's one of the pillars of Marxism and has proved to be an catastrophic failure when put in to practice.

      Personally I think that media companies can put whatever restrictions they like on the media they publish. However I do not believe that copyright infringement should be a criminal offence (it's clearly not theft, rather a slight increase of supply outside that intended by the owner). Instead it should be up to the copyright holder to recover any losses through the civil courts. If you, or anyone else, doesn't like the restrictions placed upon a copyrighted work - then don't buy/license it.

    6. Re:Library Checkout System Outdated? by Eivind+Eklund · · Score: 2, Interesting
      describe a scheme that will work and allow all people involved to be making the same amount of money they're making now (not an unreasonable stipulation, I think).

      I work with creating digital goods. I think it is a horribly unreasonable stipulation.

      A parallel is the attempt at blocking the use of robots for production (and there were attempts), on the basis that "All the people involved should be making the same amount of money."

      The question isn't how we can keep the status quo. The question is "How can we set up a system that maximize the value produced?" If we want professional production, it need to involve *some* form of compensation to authors, editors and publishers for the risk taken, and the time invested. Either through copyright or through something else.

      As it is, we have large costs from the copyright system, in the form of very high transaction costs around licensing copyrighted works. The transcation costs of licensing is WAY higher than the cost of making the actual copy. On average, I'd guess it is at least ten time higher, often a hundred times higher.

      Cutting these costs would be an enabler. As an example, Shakespeare worked as a collector and rewriter. His works would not be legal to write under the present copyright regime.

      While gaining Shakespeare, we would lose Waterworld and soap operas - as that kind of investment in a single item require per-copy returns.

      Maybe it would be worth it?

      Eivind.

      --
      Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
    7. Re:Library Checkout System Outdated? by alicenextdoor · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you think about current library practices, nobody makes more money if 100 people borrow a book then if 2 people do. Sure, you have to return a physical book before someone else can borrow it, but nobody benefits financially. So why the need to limit borrowings of electronic media? The library buys one copy and pays for it...after that it doesn't matter who read it, in house or out.

      --
      of course, biting monkeys is not to everyone's taste - Konrad Lorenz
    8. Re:Library Checkout System Outdated? by Eivind · · Score: 4, Insightful
      describe a scheme that will work and allow all people involved to be making the same amount of money they're making now (not an unreasonable stipulation, I think).

      Yes, it is *very* unreasonable. New technologies sometimes makes old services or technologies obsolete. This frequently leads to people who used to make money providing those services or technologies to loose money.

      Claiming that it's "reasonable" that "all people involved" in the old bussiness of printing and distributing books should earn as much as they did before in the new technology of electronically distributing books is just as reasonable as demanding that the ice-man should keep his pay after the invention of the refridgerator, or that the buggy and whip manufacturers should have the right to hold back the progress of the automobile.

      Some jobs remain. Digital books still need one or more authors, good editors, artwork, marketing, and (minimal) distribution. They don't need printing-presses, paper, ink, trucks to drag them around, large shelves for standing on and so on. Those services and technologies are simply, as far as ebooks are concerned, obsolete.

      You don't find many monks earning a living by hand-writing bibles these days. Thats a result of the (according to you) "unreasonable" idea that some jobs become obsolete when new technologies solve the same problem simpler/cheaper/better.

    9. Re:Library Checkout System Outdated? by Gridpoet · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Last time i checked it wasnt the parent posters responsibility to devise a new buisness model for the litegation happy big media companies.

      He/she was merely pointing out the true fact that the buisness model is indeed doomed. DRM and the DMCA are just attepmts by big media to avoid doing the hard work required to devise a new buisness model and continue to fleece the ameircan public.

      It is their responsibility to adapt and inovate, not ours. If they cant do this then natural selection should trim them away to be replaced by new companies.

      --

      -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      This is MY galaxy...go find your OWN!

    10. Re:Library Checkout System Outdated? by Sancho · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Since when has the right to a digital form of a book been a fundamental right anywhere in the world.

      No author who is writing for a living is going to purposefully take a paycut in order to give you a digital copy. No editor is going to either, nor cover designers, etc. They will expect to make the same amount of money, hence my request. Describe a system where these people will make the same amount of money while allowing digital copies to exist. If no one can do this, it's unlikely that digital copies will become prevalent since, as I said, no one wants a paycut.

      (Ok, Stephen King tried it. Anyone know if he considered his efforts a success?)

    11. Re:Library Checkout System Outdated? by Sancho · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As others have noted, with a book unavailable if someone else is using it, another demand is created. At our local library, books can be checked out for 3 weeks. It's not uncommon for lazy people to keep the book that long, particularly if it's something they specifically wanted to read (as opposed to the person who continuously has books checked out and basically devours them). If the library only has one copy of that book, and they all keep it out for even only two weeks, then that's 198 weeks before that last person gets to read the book. That's almost 4 years.

      The demand, then, is to have the item now. Most people don't want to wait 4 years to read the latest Harry Potter book. As such, sales of the book will be higher than simply people who want to collect the series. I suspect that if everyone could legally download the book for free, there would be a measurable impact on the sales. Oh, I'm sure JK would still be Rowling in the dough (ha ha) but ultimately, she would be making less money. As such, they want to limit this effect and -- funny thing -- as copyright holders, they get to do so.

    12. Re:Library Checkout System Outdated? by Thomas+Miconi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You have to return a normal dead-tree book because there are only a few copies, and making more copies costs time, materials and money. Because of this, the product is scarce and thus market forces (supply/demand) apply.

      Because, as we all know, the only resources that is used in the production of a book is cellulose. Book authors can live off thin air and public recognition.

      Unfortunately for the publishers, consumers are recognizing that there the products scarcity is purely fictional, and they don't accept this.

      Unfortunately for anyone who would like to live off the product of their intellectual work (as opposed to merely renting their intellectual capacities to BigCorp Inc.), consumers are recognising that modern technology allows them to get stuff for free instead of *gasp* paying for it - and are taking advantage of it.

      Fortunately this does not really affect major sellers. Stephen King or Britney Spears are still profitable because no matter how much piracy goes one, people will still buy their products at B&M shops. So VivendiUniversal, Sony and whoever is publishes Stephen King's books can just get away with suing a few filesharers and not worry too much about it.

      All they have to do to protect their margins is to dump less profitable authors/artists and concentrate on reliable, fabricated products. I mean, seriously, when BigLabel sees their profits fall, who do you think will get the boot first ? Britney or Joe Real Musician ?

      Thomas-

    13. Re:Library Checkout System Outdated? by DavidTC · · Score: 3, Interesting
      You forgot the third way: Right now, all media distribution is controlled by very large corporations.

      In some places, like books, that's not that relevant, because many people just ignore the distribution system and publish their own books, aka, vanity printing.

      This is also happening in the music industry, although as the music industry is a cartel that controls entire channels of distribution, it's happening a lot slower. (Whereas with books you can walk up to local bookstores and get them to carry your vanity printed book if they think it's interesting.)

      And it's started happening with TV shows. I point you to the fan-made Star Trek, or even cartoons like Strong Bad. Yes, it's crude, and there's no money in it, but people are doing it who couldn't actually produce a real TV show.

      That leads to the third option. People not in the industry could convert to the new way. In practice, this is how 50% of all paradigm shifts works. Some companies convert to the new way, and some resisted. Those that resist are left behind.

      Book publishers are not going to be left behind. There are already ones that publish free ebooks, there are ones that don't do 'contracts' and 'advances'...you write the book, you pay them to edit it, you pay them to print it, you keep all the money. And, of course, newspapers are desperately trying to reposition themselves in this new world where everyone has an infinitely-big infinitely-fast printing press that lets random people append whatever they want at any time.

      The publishing industry 'gets it'. Some parts are scared to death, some parts are worried, and some part are laughing manically as they gain the ability to print a single copy of a book at a sane price. But they all see it coming, and they all see they have to change.

      However, the music 'industry' is resisting 100%. Sadly, the music 'industry' is not made up of the people who actually make the music, who are converting in droves.

      Which is, of course, the third option. The industry might not change, and might come out with harser and harser laws, and harder to get around technical means.

      And while they're doing that, others see a way into the market by not doing that. Eventually rendering the music 'industry' irrelevant.

      The TV and movie industry have not reacted much, because copying hasn't been that possible for that, and because entering that industry has incredibly high costs...or, at least, it did.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    14. Re:Library Checkout System Outdated? by swillden · · Score: 4, Informative

      As such, it's reasonable to assume that no one in the supply chain for the creation of the work itself is going to purposefully take a pay cut just to give people a digital copy of the work.

      Consider another point of view, from author Eric Flint, who is the "First Librarian" of the Baen Free Library. The whole essay I linked to is interesting, but here's the conclusion:

      The reason I'm not worried about the future is because of another simple truth. One which is even simpler, in fact -- and yet seems to get constantly overlooked in the ruckus over online piracy and what (if anything) to do about it. To wit:
      Nobody has yet come up with any technology -- nor is it on the horizon -- which could possibly replace authors as the producers of fiction. Nor has anyone suggested that there is any likelihood of the market for that product drying up.
      The only issue, therefore, is simply the means by which authors get paid for their work.
      [...]
      The future can't be foretold. But, whatever happens, so long as writers are essential to the process of producing fiction -- along with editors, publishers, proofreaders (if you think a computer can proofread, you're nuts) and all the other people whose work is needed for it -- they will get paid. Because they have, as a class if not as individuals, a monopoly on the product. Far easier to figure out new ways of generating income -- as we hope to do with the Baen Free Library -- than to tie ourselves and society as a whole into knots. Which are likely to be Gordian Knots, to boot.

      Flint hit it right on the head, IMO. There is no reason that authors should be guaranteed their current level of income. But neither is there any reason for authors to get worried that their profession will go away. Freely redistributable digital media will change the model, and there will be some pain during the transition, but as long as people want to read, and as long as authors need to eat, there will be a way for people to get paid for writing.

      You probably think I'm missing your point, which is that authors won't *choose* to take a pay cut just to provide us with digital media. I didn't miss it. But the fact is that there is demand for digital media, so some enterprising authors and publishers will begin to take advantage of it. Baen's Webscriptions model is a good example; it's both highly profitable and DRM-free. It won't work for every kind of creative work, and it may not work, as is, forever, but it's exactly the kind of creative thinking we need... people figuring out how to adapt to the new realities, rather than keep churning out the buggy whips.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  5. Valid use for DRM by aussie_a · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think this is a perfectly valid use for DRM. It allows libraries to offer digital content, without screwing over the copyright holder. It's not like libraries are able to photocopy entire books and lend them out.

    There is no way to be able to force people to delete it on their computer except via DRM. People who use this content, AREN'T paying for it (at least in most public libraries), and while it's most likely very easy to break the DRM, the library isn't forced to enforce their DRM, their responsibility (and liability) stop at placing the DRM onto the content. Unlike commercial copyright distributors, they don't need to make it more convoluted with a harder system to stop people from breaking the DRM.

    It's unfortunate that a Microsoft DRM is being used (as I assume it can only be played on Microsoft systems), but it's most likely the easiest and most well known DRM to the people that put the DRM on the content (and the library staff can most likely offer trouble-shooting help with it as a result).

    1. Re:Valid use for DRM by LordLucless · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You mention the DRM is easily circumventable. And it is. But then, its just as easy to duplicate the current audiobooks being distributed on tape and CD. But if the DRM can keep the duplication down to the level previously experienced with tapes and CDs, then the content providers can't really complain. And in the meantime, borrowers get the convenience of borrowing from the comfort of their own homes. Win/win. If only all DRM scenarios worked like this.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    2. Re:Valid use for DRM by QuantumG · · Score: 2, Informative

      Shock! Ya know Joe Schmoe probably seeks out and downloads more software than any of us tech geniuses because he doesn't know the dangers of running arbitary software on his computer and/or trusts his antispyware apps to keep him safe.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
  6. Workable DRM by LordLucless · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is actually one of the few types of DRM that I can actually see as being worthwhile. That is, a type of DRM that emulates the current, physical limitations of property in digital space rather than manufacturing artificial restrictions.

    This sort of feature makes libraries more accessible, without lmiting the borrowers any more than the previous system. If this is the sort of thing DRM is going to be used for, then good for it. I doubt it though.

    --
    Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    1. Re:Workable DRM by zerblat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's still an artificial restriction. Technology advances and becomes more capable. The fact that certain restrictions existed in a previous generation of technology doesn't mean it makes sense for new technology. It's like having a speed limit of 10 km/h for cars because horse-drawn carriages can't travell any faster than that.

      --
      Please alter my pants as fashion dictates.
    2. Re:Workable DRM by LordLucless · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Perhaps I used poor terminology. I should say that the DRM used in this scenario creates no additional restrictions - it creates digital objects that have the same restrictions as their physical counterparts. Provided there are no irritating side-effects to this restriction, I don't have a problem with it. What I object to is when a digital object is DRM-encumbered in such a way that it is more restricted than it's physical counterpart - like CDs that won't play in certain computers, or DVDs that cannot be played in a country other than that which they are purchased in.

      It may be, as you imply with your analogy, that the old way is passing away, and soon we'll all enjoy infinitely redistributable content. But I wouldn't bet on it. Schemes to artificially limit demand (which is essentially what DRM, copyright, and all that jazz is) are generally successful and sustainable for the ones implementing it - that's why there are anti-trust laws against some instances of it. If it was something that would intrinsically fail, it wouldn't need to be regulated. I'm afraid the current model of licensing and artificial scarcity is going to be with us for a while.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
  7. What is the problem.. by DenDave · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Audiobooks... I can't figure out what the problem is with reading...

    Anyway, this would seem to be an appropriate use of DRM technology. Of course I would imagine that with an audiobook the quality of the sounds is not as important as with music so someone really bent on keeping a copy would either burn it to cd if their system could do that and otherwise simply record from the audio output of their pc...

    I wouldn't but then again, I would never get an audiobook... I prefer to read.

    --
    -if at first you don't succeed, stay the heck away from paragliding.
    1. Re:What is the problem.. by buyo-kun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Audiobooks... I can't figure out what the problem is with reading... Dyslexia, blindness and other disabilities are what makes reading a problem for many. As for the DRM, I think its a terrible idea, anyone intending to copy the file could do so easily. The only effect this will have is against lazy people: those unwilling to make the trip to the website or library to "return" the file but this efficiency is greatly outweighted by the cost of implementing this system.

    2. Re:What is the problem.. by SolitaryMan · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Audiobooks... I can't figure out what the problem is with reading...

      I can give you several reasons:
      1. You can listen to the audio book, when there is no light or it is not satisfactory. (I do that when I travel by train at night)
      2. You can listen to it when you are jogging, walking or driving.
      3. When I come back from work, my eyes are already tired enough, so reading can be literally painful...
      --
      May Peace Prevail On Earth
    3. Re:What is the problem.. by LordLucless · · Score: 2, Funny

      Audiobooks... I can't figure out what the problem is with reading...

      It's hard to see on-coming traffic while doing it.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
  8. Linux? by pimpsoftcom · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What about linux compatability? Mplayer will often play files just fine with the right plugins.. at least on gentoo.

    --
    - d
  9. Not cracked yet? by putko · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I guess as soon as you can watch Star Wars with this stuff, the DRM will get cracked in a few days.

    Pure software methods always get cracked. Even hardware, as Bruce Schneier mentions, gets cracked, routinely. It really is just a question of how much time, and how much resources it takes to break it. The problem with digital stuff is that once you do it, you've cracked it for everyone.

    The town of "Fucking" (that really is the name) in Austria had a problem with people stealing the signs. They recently moved to a new system, where the signs are really hard to steal. But as the mayor said -- "it would take all night to steal". Not, "you can't steal it" -- but it will take so long that someone will/may come along and arrest you before you make off with it.

    With DRM, the guy gets to take the "sign" home for a few weeks at a time, until he can manage to crack it -- and once he does, you don't have any clue that he's done it.

    --
    http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_s tone_your_children/dt21_18a.html
    1. Re:Not cracked yet? by MosesJones · · Score: 2, Informative

      Pure software methods always get cracked

      Always can theoretically get cracked. This doesn't mean that they always HAVE been cracked.

      With DRM, the guy gets to take the "sign" home for a few weeks at a time, until he can manage to crack it -- and once he does, you don't have any clue that he's done it.

      Which is why we should expect two tier DRM to become a standard pretty soon, first level to "protect", second level to "inform", so sure you can crack the protection, but it then sends a message to inform. Of course some people will be able to detect this, but how many? Next time you use MS Media Player and it "connects to server" how can you be sure its not informing MS of violations?

      And before anyone bleats about "civil rights", this is the same as those car trackers that get activated when a car is stolen. If you don't steal something then it doesn't inform, if you break the seal it then informs.

      People who see digital audio as a free lunch are the people ensuring that the goverment restricts liberties for everyone.

      --
      An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
    2. Re:Not cracked yet? by jakuaii · · Score: 2

      Actually, every time some tourist would take the sign, an exact duplicate would appear in its place.

      There is a fundamental difference between the 'real' and the digital world - in the real world, copies are bounded by resources and costs. In the digital world, only information (= ideas, abstract concepts) is copied around, which costs about zero.

      DRM for libraries its probably more legitimate, but nevertheless an artificial limitation.

    3. Re:Not cracked yet? by Vo0k · · Score: 2, Informative

      Audio books, unlike great most of electronic media, suffer very little quality loss from analog ripping. Just grab the audio stream and re-encode it as MP3. Sure you lose some audio quality, but unlike in music, in case of books it doesn't matter all that much at all - the voice may sound different, there may be a little more noise, but the content will be still just as understandable.

      --
      Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
  10. How is the library going to replace the revenue by Rhys+Hardwick · · Score: 2, Insightful

    From what I can see, Libraries make a fair bit of income from fees for overdue books. This helps to pay for new books, repairs, etc.

    Also books in electronic format tend to cost more than the paperback alternatives for the amount of lending licenses necessary.

    So who is going to pay for this? Is there going to be a charge for loaning the books?

  11. Re:Clearly Nessisary by DMouse · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Because they need to return it because having it checked out stops other people from using it...

  12. Re:Clearly Nessisary by The+Wooden+Badger · · Score: 2, Funny

    So it's your fault I couldn't read the post! thanks for "inconviencing" everyone!

    --
    Heroscape, it's like legos combined with anachronistic wargames.
  13. The whole system will crumble by A+beautiful+mind · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I ment the Intellectual Property / Copyright one, not the library.

    In the internet age where someone wants to claim ownership to various bitflows, it just simply doesn't work. The whole definition of storing and copying bitflows invalidates the entire system of intellectual property because of it's given nature. In this environment IP and Copyright is an outdated system blocking innovation.

    Sooner or later the pressure will be too high as the internet gets into more and more areas of our life, it will force the rethinking of the information restricting laws.

    This library attempt to introducte DRM is especially a bad case since libraries should be storehouses of information, not restricters of them.

    Someone will surely try to point me to the positive sides of IP and Copyright. There are some, but as of today the benefits are far outweighted by the negative effect it creates, even on innovation. Without patent protection, people would still create, or even create much more freely. In the age of internet, it is even concivable that those people would cooperate strengthening innovation. It is the human nature to create, just look at the F/OSS movement.

    Before someone brings up the example of drugs, let me try to answer it: those companies researching would still research, but they would also need to compete on manufacturing those drugs the best possible way and no such situation could arise where they try to sell AIDS medicine to poor african countries at the price of 20 times of the manufacturing costs only because of someone's intellectual property.

    Let me put it this way: IP stiffles teamwork and derivative works. In today's age that is a huge loss, instead of the whole internet community working on something, only a selected few can, which makes it slow and expensive. Would huge corporations still rake wild profits from selling a drug? No. Would they make a decent profit from manufacturing them? Absolutely.

    Let's get back to a world where we stick to physical reality, not imaginary intellectual property.

    --
    It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
    Be yourself no matter what they say
  14. Re:Clearly Nessisary by kahei · · Score: 4, Informative

    The point here is that there is only a license for 1 person to read it at once -- and it is the library's responsibility to enforce that, otherwise they would be unlawfully distributing the work.

    This has been a public service announcement.

    --
    Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
  15. Whew... by Edward+Teach · · Score: 4, Funny

    It is a good thing no one can hook the audio out to a tape recorder. Man, we would be in real trouble then!

    --

    Setting his threshold to 5, Sparky eliminated most of the trolls on /.

  16. Re:Missing The Point? by Crash+Culligan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The whole reason of returning library books/media is so that others may borrow it.

    Surely this is not necessary when borrowing an easily reproducible copy.

    And that's exactly what I thought when I saw this. Due dates are a way of managing scarcity: the library only has so many copies in stock, so they insist that copies only be out for a certain amount of time. The fine they levy for not bringing it back in time is not so much a revenue stream as an incentive for patrons to bring the media back in time.

    Digital copies mean that given a single original, one can create any number of identical duplicates. It should herald an end to information scarcity. The problem is that too many businesses, content producers, etc. are totally incapable of crafting a business model based on abundance. In their defense, it may not be possible to do so.

    That's the reason for the DRM in this case: rather than buy all the audio books themselves, the libraries pay a small fee, get a number of licenses, and can lease those out for a limited time. It's not so much the library that's using the DRM to check books back, it's that the company making the audiobooks available to them will only let them offer books for a limited time.

    Congratulations to the libraries on finding a way to make audiobooks available cheaply to its patrons and eliminating the need to bring the books back, but deep down I'm still fuming. It won't end until someone finds a way to DRM money and jams it down the industry's throat... and actually, that gives me a wicked idea. But how to pull it off...?

    --
    You cannot truly appreciate Dilbert until you read it in the original Klingon.
  17. Libraries should rethink DRM by mattr · · Score: 5, Insightful
    To posters who said this is why DRM is useful, consider what is the POINT of a library?

    It is not a bookstore or cd/video rental shop. Patrons do not pay money each time they take a book out. They may be charged late fees due to scarcity issues, but the main idea is to enable the person to read the content.

    The person can come back many times to take the book out again if he needs more time. But there is no point physically going to the library if it is a digital item on his drive.

    In other words, even if the liscense required only a fixed number of people being able to view a title at a given time, it STILL would not make sense, because the DRM does not know if there are enough other copies to go around. It might be that nobody else is in fact interested in the file.

    Therefore, the idea of a DRM "period" is bogus. At the very least, the user should be able to add another period if there are enough copies left in the stacks. It should not require an Internet line either, and it should be able to run on free software not some attackware that executes on my computer in a manner contrary to my wishes.

    I have another point that may be unpopular with big business. It would be much better in my book if the library was able to purchase more items on a sliding scale as things got more popular, but not be bound to micromanage every copy on a user's hard drive.

    You see, the point of the library is to ensure that everyone can get access to information, not just people with a lot of disposable income. You don't have to go buy the book or cd/dvd if your library has it. A library is not intended to be a marketing mechanism that makes you want to go buy the title. It is not intended to respond to the marketplace due to its competition with a bookstore/rental shop.

    Considering that most people don't check the same book out of their library over and over again, a library normally wouldn't care if the user had a way to keep copies after returning them. The library has no responsibility for making sure that the user does not keep a copy on his drive even after the first time the user has read the copy, because it is there to promote access, not control access (except adult content maybe). If there is a good library nearby, you should never have to go to a store to get what you want.

    Therefore, it stands to reason that:

    1. DRM erasing files on your machine after a given period is WRONG. Lateness should engender late fees, so the person can balance opportunity cost at least.
    2. You can't "lose" a file like you can lose or destroy a book, and books at least can be distributed for massively less money on cd or online. Such cost savings should be figured in when purchasing and when deciding on checkout policies.
    3. Even if the library purchases titles with a maximum simultaneous readers clause in it, if enough copies are available it should extend the period so that late fees are waived.
    4. The library should be able to calculate AVERAGE SIMULTANEOUS READERSHIP of a given title to maximize its investment and give readers some of the benefits of digital technology. In other words, it should allow a burst of MORE simultaneous users than contracted, and then balance that out by artificially reducing the number of titles that can be simultaneously read at a later date. This can be amortized over a Very Long Time (tm), which gives the library some time to consider buying more simultaneous liscenses when it really needs them.
    5. Libraries should demand contracts with publishers which allow them to calculate average simultaneous readership to allow for readership bursts (say due to holidays or related news events). Libraries must also demand the option to easily purchase more liscenses at a later time based on an industry-wide open standard compliant form.
    6. Libraries should fight tooth and nail against DRM that erases information and any other tools that undermine what a library is typically supposed to do.
    7. High cost
    1. Re:Libraries should rethink DRM by m50d · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Therefore, the idea of a DRM "period" is bogus. At the very least, the user should be able to add another period if there are enough copies left in the stacks.

      If you read it, they can.

      It should not require an Internet line either,

      How else would you suggest they check whether there are copies available? I suppose you could go into the library, but then how would they get the license onto your computer?

      and it should be able to run on free software not some attackware that executes on my computer in a manner contrary to my wishes.

      The software has to be able to prevent you acting according to your wishes to do what it's meant to.

      DRM erasing files on your machine after a given period is WRONG. Lateness should engender late fees, so the person can balance opportunity cost at least.

      The fees are called fines for a reason. It's not intended that you decide whether to keep the book longer, just like you shouldn't choose to keep the copy and pay the library, they charge you for the times when you do as a punishment.

      You can't "lose" a file like you can lose or destroy a book, and books at least can be distributed for massively less money on cd or online. Such cost savings should be figured in when purchasing and when deciding on checkout policies.

      True, and I'm sure they are considered.

      Even if the library purchases titles with a maximum simultaneous readers clause in it, if enough copies are available it should extend the period so that late fees are waived.

      TFA mentions that these audiobooks can be renewed, just like you would with a physical book.

      The library should be able to calculate AVERAGE SIMULTANEOUS READERSHIP of a given title to maximize its investment and give readers some of the benefits of digital technology. In other words, it should allow a burst of MORE simultaneous users than contracted, and then balance that out by artificially reducing the number of titles that can be simultaneously read at a later date. This can be amortized over a Very Long Time (tm), which gives the library some time to consider buying more simultaneous liscenses when it really needs them.

      What motivation would a publisher have to license in this fashion though? Most physical books the library buys spend a lot of their time sitting on the shelves, why should they be able to buy less books and copy some of them some of the time?

      Libraries should demand contracts with publishers which allow them to calculate average simultaneous readership to allow for readership bursts (say due to holidays or related news events). Libraries must also demand the option to easily purchase more liscenses at a later time based on an industry-wide open standard compliant form.

      And if the publishers say no? Libraries are very much beholden to publishers, the income they give the publishers is relatively low. They're in no position to be making demands.

      High cost efficiency publishing formats should also be provided, for example providing all the works of a given author, or all the works of a given genre, on one CD. That CD is really cheap to print, it is just about liscense fees. Forget software DRM and accounting systems that watch what you read. Just run some experiments, calculate the average simultaneous readership for the titles, and use this to figure out how many titles the library should buy.

      Again, would the publishers be willing to do this?

      It seems that with all this hub-bub libraries are probably paying WAY too much for digital media. If a library buys one book and 1000 people read it, that is still I think only one book's worth of money going to the author, is it? Libraries need some help here to protect their purchasing power. Amortizing access over time might be a good idea, then you could allow a large number of copies to be created for the big initial rush but not rent out any copies in the future.

      The library has to buy as many copies as it will

      --
      I am trolling
  18. not valid to endorse a Microsoft only use by frovingslosh · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I think this is a perfectly valid use for DRM. It allows libraries to offer digital content

    I don't think it's a valid use at all. It's a public library, paid for with public funds, but it distributes midia based on a Microsoft-only DRM plan. Users with Linux (or I expect Apple) who decide not to spend the money on a Microsoft version of the software that will support this DRM approach get less access to material than those who support Microsoft. I think that's an extremely dangerous trend to start with libraries funded with public dollars. Unless the libraries also offer the same media in some form that is available to Linux users, then I would fight this when it rears it's ugly head at my libbrary.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
  19. Re:Missing The Point? by daniel_mcl · · Score: 2, Interesting

    (1) Write a book of haiku that consist of the serial numbers on each piece of paper money you own. Publish it, set up public performances, etc.

    (2) Spend money

    (3) Sue companies for copyright infringement

    (4) Profit!

    --
    I used to read Caltizzle. I was a lot cooler than you.
  20. Re:clock? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Well, if I were implementing the scheme, I would ensure that:
    • The license would be revoked if the time were outside the allowed period in either direction (no setting the clock to last year).
    • The time of each play must be after the time of the last play (no setting the clock back after listening once).
    • The time would be read periodically and used to adjust the playback speed of the audio (if you slow down your clock, it slows down the audio).
    Under this scheme, the only thing you could do would be to set your clock to the check-out date when you first listened to it so you would have 3 weeks from when you started listening, rather than three weeks from when you checked it out.
    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  21. Re:The Only Problem by Pofy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    >Many people in this thread have already
    >commented on how this is a perfectly valid use
    >of DRM. I completely agree with that. I actually
    >think that _any_ instance where the copyright
    >holder puts DRM on something is perfectly valid;
    >after all, they _are_ the copyright holder. So
    >far so good.

    However, most of the DRM part has NOTHING to do with copyright. Restricting how long you can view or read something has nothing to do with copyright. The copyright holder has no exclusive right for that. The copyright holder can control a few things such as copying and public performance due to being exclusive to them, nothing else. DRM however, add completely new control over things that has nothing to do with copyright.

  22. DIVX anyone? by krunk4ever · · Score: 2, Interesting

    remember the DIVX system Circuit City tried to implement?
    http://hometheater.about.com/library/weekly/aa0621 99.htm

    This disc format allowed the consumer to make an intitial movie purchase for as low as $4.49, which allowed one to watch the movie as many times as they wanted within a 48 viewing period. In order to watch the film again after that time, the viewer had to reactivate the viewing period with the DIVX computer. In other words, the player was tied in to the phone line and the consumer had to punch in his credit card number to a main-frame computer in Virginia in order to view his movie.

    it's basically DRM with another renting schema that fell through. i thought it was actually pretty neat, but i guess because of the physical disc barrier, it wasn't well received. if they can make home theater pcs download these DRMed movies and give them an expiration of 48hours or 1 week or something, I think that'll be totally awesome!

  23. MPlayer & WMA by jurt1235 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Mplayer does play WMA as far as I know, so putting the dll in the right place could do the trick. It is not very userfriendly though.

    --

    My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
    1. Re:MPlayer & WMA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Only wmas without DRM... also its illegal to use that DLL without a license for Windows.

      So Linux users a screwed.

  24. Linux support by jurt1235 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    WMA does not by definition exclude linux, just some company has to license WMA to make a player for linux. It will be costly I would guess, but if Microsoft wants to have support for their DRM, they could make this less costly, and have the support of the linux crowd for their DRM behind them (embrace and maybe not assimilate this time?)

    --

    My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
    1. Re:Linux support by BillyBlaze · · Score: 2, Informative

      DRM may not exclude any particular piece of hardware implicitly, but because it does ultimately depend on security by obscurity, it does exclude an entirely open-soure stack. That might become possible with hardware support, but then you've just traded obfuscated software for obfuscated hardware.

    2. Re:Linux support by Mafia$oft · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, yes, WMA DOES exclude Linux:
      Michael Robertson (Linspire) wrote in an article that he had actually contacted Microsoft about WMA licensing, yet Microsoft actively REFUSED to license it to his Linux distribution (ok, well, it seems WMA was allowed, but not the Digital Restrictions Management component).

      See it mentioned at
      http://www.windowsitpro.com/Article/ArticleID/4456 6/44566.html?Ad=1
      (cannot find the original Michael's Minutes article easily, so I gave up)

      But seriously, did you expect anything else from a convicted criminal predatory monopolist?

    3. Re:Linux support by BraceletWinner · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Well, yes, WMA DOES exclude Linux:
      Michael Robertson (Linspire) wrote in an article that he had actually contacted Microsoft about WMA licensing, yet Microsoft actively REFUSED to license it to his Linux distribution (ok, well, it seems WMA was allowed, but not the Digital Restrictions Management component).


      I am a former employee of a company (Zapmedia - no longer in business) that made a set top box for TVs that ran on Linux and had WMA/WMV with DRM, so it has happened. I'm not saying this guy is wrong, just that in the right situation, MS will license it for Linux.
    4. Re:Linux support by Mafia$oft · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hmm, very interesting. This is most likely because it's not a general-purpose system. Desktop Linux is a much larger threat to them, that's probably why they didn't grant licenses.

      Oh, and why is it that all companies making a deal with the devil are quite soon no longer in business? ;-)
      (here's hope you managed to find a good job thereafter!)

      Thank you for this interesting information!

  25. Library DRM goes against ALA and UNESCO by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 2, Informative
    I think this is a perfectly valid use for DRM. It allows libraries to offer digital content, without screwing over the copyright holder. It's not like libraries are able to photocopy entire books and lend them out.
    Except that it locks library patrons into MS' DRM schemes. MS has been found guilty (even after appeal) of illegally abusing its desktop monopoly to gain entrance to new markets and wipe out the competition. This has been in the courts in both the US and the EU. Libraries should not be helping the criminal element.

    Libraries should not go anywhere near MS products, especially its DRM. The Unesco manifest for public libraries contain a number of points including these four:

    • well informed public
    • sustainable development
    • freedom
    • democratic values
    Here's how they tie in:

    Well-informed public: Money spend on acquiring, maintaining or merely operating ICT tools is money not spent on actual information resources or patron service. In addition to acquisition, maintenance, operating, and licensing costs (or lack there of) for ICT, the frequency with which these costs occur is as important as the magnitude.

    DRM is simply too tied to a specific vendor / platform / product to be anything other than a cost sink. The data is not in the control of the library because the data format and the codecs needed use the DRM'd data are not. To make matters worse, the actual life cycle of the data formats and codecs is out of the hands of the library, so even if they retain the DRM'd data, it still can expire through lack of tools. And you can't make your own tools either, the EUCD/DMCA make that a serious crime even if the DRM is as simple as ROT-13.

    Sustainable development: Historically, Microsoft has used new formats and protocols to drive new sales of software which in turn have driven sales of new hardware. Losing control of the data means that libraries then have no say in when or how to replace hardware or software. That causes problems locally, by hitting the library budget. That causes problems globally by hitting the environment with the discarded carcasses of computers, which are full of poisonous, non-biodegradable materials, including heavy metals. These machines are said to take as much resources as the now infamous SUV to produce.

    Simply put, given uniform costs over the years (for the sake of argument), a five year replacement cycle is 40% less load/cost than a three year cycle. A six year replacement cycle is 50% cheaper than a three year cycle. In comparison to a two year cycle, which the vendors are trying to achieve, five and six year cycles are 60% and 67% cheaper.

    Freedom: What part about not-Free (as in Freedom) don't you understand? Interoperability is the basis for freedom in this context. Without adherence to standards, there can be no interoperability. Therefore, vendors that fail to follow standards also causes similar problems and vendors that *chronically* introduce broken implementations of standards, whether as part of an "embrace, extend, extinguish" strategy or not, should also be avoided. Vendors that force proprietary protocols, formats and codecs should likewise be avoided for similar reasons. Specifically, the vendor in question, Microsoft, seems to have had difficulty following standards, particularly if the problems interfere with competing products. Examples include ODBC, Kerberos, and even TCP/IP and HTTP, to name only a few.

    Democratic values: Vendors that chronically engage in illegal and unethical behavior are probably not likely to work towards support of democratic values either through daily operation in society or through the capabilities of their products. So far, MS has proven to be one of the worst in the 20th and 21st centuries.

    --
    Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
  26. Hear hear! by Steeltoe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Good points! I was thinking some of them while reading the posts here.

    I can't believe people here fall for DRM as soon as they can get something for free..

    What we need is people thinking on the whole system, not just wether they themselves can get something by giving less for it. When everyone does that, it stops the flow of money.

    I have a solid income, yet I vote for those parties here in Norway that favours schools, libraries, human values and strengthening the local community. This will certainly take more money from my pocket, but will benefit more people.

    Think people..

  27. Restricted content will only get harder to enforce by quokkapox · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The parent post may or may not be flamebait, but makes a very important point.

    Content providers using DRM technology already find themselves in an escalating arms race against information consumers (their customers!) who wish to freely, indefinitely retain copies of "content" in any form which they encounter. The reality is this: 20 years ago, you could check out a library book and if you really wanted to, you could copy it for 5c/page. There was never any way to stop you from doing this, and there never will be. Now you can copy digital information for free. Put some DRM in the way, and you can get around it if you want to. If you have to, you can screen-capture an e-book and OCR the resulting bitmaps if you really, really want to. This sort of activity is only going to get cheaper and easier.

    We now have the technology to share unlimited quantities of information worldwide, virtually instantaneously, with perfect fidelity. This is not going away, at least not without a severe, worldwide crackdown on copyright infringement which is probably not feasible anyway. The cat is out of the bag and there's no way for restrictive technology to keep up.

    This is great if you're an information consumer, but the outlook is pretty dismal for the business models still embraced by most of the big content marketing corporations today.

    What is revolutionary, I believe, is that humanity is on the verge of developing technologies that can be used to manipulate physical matter with the same flexibility we now use to manipulate bits. I'm not saying we'll have desktop replicators in ten years, but we'll have them eventually. They'll start out probably as simple biological devices and then improve rapidly. So when you can freely download the plans to synthesize some Viagra or THC or the latest antiretroviral drug cocktail to treat some pandemic flu in 2020, this blows the whole business model of the drug companies clean out of the water. No more scarcity, in yet another huge sector of the economy, just like today there are no shortages of free downloadable copies of any major movie/audio/video release.

    And how are they going to slap DRM onto the design for a molecule??? And if you can get your hands on a sample of it, you will probably be capable of analyzing and copying it as effortlessly as you can rip a CD.

    If we can just solve the interrelated problems of energy scarcity and pollution/global warming before it's too late, things are going to get really, really interesting in the near future.

    --
    it's a blue bright blue Saturday hey hey
  28. Re:Pointless and wrong by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Alas, you are wrong. Audiobooks exsist under the same copyright law that books exsist under.

    Just as a library may not buy a book, make copies of it and then give away copies of said book with out the copyright holders permission, a library may not make copies of audiobook and then give them away.

    Copyright law has it's place, and thought it may be abused, it still protects the rights of the creators of works or those that pay for the work to be created.

    Authors rely on sales for their livelyhood. How many of your favorite books would not have been written if the author had to wait tables or work construction to put food on the table and a roof over their head? Would you do your job for free?

    You think that because an audiobook can be cheaply copied, that it right to do so. I wish people such as yourself would remember that just because something can be done does not make it right or fair to do it.

    --
    There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  29. Wow, I'm impressed by Sonic+McTails · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I though I would never see a good use for DRM but I could actually get behind and support this. The one problem it brings through is your locked into Windows. It wouldn't be such a problem if the companies got togeter and created one standarized DRM scheme that everyone could use, but no, that would be too perfect a world.

    --
    This signature was left intentionally blank.
  30. Re:Missing The Point? by mankey+wanker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I found your post interesting for its digression on DRMed money. Frankly, how is money not DRMed already?

    I am having a Morpheus (from The Matrix) moment: Do you think that's gold in your pockets?

    Any time they wish to devalue the money in your pockets they can print more of it. It has no intrinsic value of its own. We believe in money the same way we believe in God - it's all faith based until the music ends and you get stuck holding a wallet or checkbook notations of worthless paper.

    Our whole economy is based on this idea - attenuated barter based on the exchange of items having no intrinsic value of their own (paper money and non-precious metal coins). It is because of the very elastic (inflationary) nature of the money that they can steal from you.

    Gold is only better than paper money in one way - it is not very elastic and there is real scarcity. As gold is an element, unless you can solve the question confounding alchemists through the centuries you will find that the supply is indeed finite. You can discover more, but you can't just make more (via printing), and that's why it makes a better means of exchange. And interestingly, gold really does have many unique and interesting properties that make it valuable in itself - intrinsically.

    Now what's better than gold? Real estate. That's how smart people "store" their money for safe keeping unless they are using it in other types of investments. Sadly, even the value of real estate is largely theoretical because they have ways to appropriate that too - they call it property taxes but it has the effect of converting the real property that you might own into something that you "lease" via continual payment of a property tax. When you fail to pay the tax, they just come and take your very real property away from you. Remarkable! And so few complain...

    So I don't know about your "wicked idea" but I think they already thought of it before you, then they built up a way to continually set up the marks for the big con - we call it "government." They sold it to us via Art. I, sect. 10 of the Constitution - but they played bait and switch on us too. It's not gold, it's paper - and it's worthless. And it's not really real estate if they are just treating you like a serf on the land belonging to the banks/fedual lords.

    Okay, I am done with playing Morpheus and trying to tell you how the world really works.

  31. DReaM? by Tune · · Score: 2, Interesting


    It appears your angle is not against DRM, but rather against Microsoft DRM. Ie., DReaM Sun's open DRM initiative should be okay from your point of view.

    As a sincere, open question I'd like to ask you: do you believe Open Source can (or cannot) coexist or even cooperate with DRMed media?

  32. Ultimately not reasonable. by k.a.f. · · Score: 5, Interesting


    No, it is not reasonable, because the world changes.

    Some people write books to make money. Some people write books because
    it satisfies them personally. Back when book copying was infeasibly
    expensive, both of them had an incentive for continuing to write. Now
    that copying has become feasibly cheap, those that write only for the
    money have less of an incentive, and that is as should be (cue
    Heinlein quote).

    Establishing artificial restrictions on copying in order to prop up a
    failed incentive is ultimately wasteful.

  33. Some audio cards already allow it. by WidescreenFreak · · Score: 4, Informative

    Most sound cards are full-duplex and allow the input to be the mixer or "as you hear it". So, they effectively already have a loopback built into them. I've done this before in Windows.

    - Set the input to be the mixer or the "as you hear it" function
    - Start the Sound Recorder (or other sound editing program)
    - Open the audio file in another tool
    - Start recording
    - Start playing
    - Done

    Even then, how many of us have multiple computers? Here is a simple and effective DRM disabler:
    Line out (PC 1) --> Line in (PC 2)

    That's the thing that fervent, DRM supports just don't seem to understand. If you can hear it, you can record it.

    --
    The Overrated mod is for reversing inappropriate, positive mods, not for voicing disagreement with a post.
    1. Re:Some audio cards already allow it. by shark72 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "That's the thing that fervent, DRM supports just don't seem to understand. If you can hear it, you can record it."

      I'm sure they understand this just fine. They understand that it is impossible to make something absolutely copy-proof, so they settle for "sufficiently difficult."

      If you're not sure what I mean, consider the auto security business or even the home security business. It's impossible to make a cost-effective auto security system that will thwart the thief who has sufficient training and who has sufficient desire to take your car. However, 99% of car thieves don't fall into this category, so a decent security system is usually good enough.

      Slashdotters often think that because they have the motivation and the skills to jump through hoops to defeat DRM, then the public at large must also have this same motivation and skill. But, let's face it: when it comes to things technical, Slashdot readers are often up above the 90th percentile.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
  34. Try READING the article by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 2, Informative
    I see you did not read the article, or even the slashdot article. Nor do you make much sense in your reasoning.
    • The DRM does not erase the file, it simply stops decrypting the file.
    • The patron can renew his checkout of the audiobook.
    • The patron downloaded the audiobook over the internet. Why shouldn't he have to renew it over the internet?
    • As the DRM keeps the files from being decrypted after it is supposed to be returned, there are no late fees.
    • The libraries buy the audiobook download service from companies who manage all details.
    • Of these companies some only allow a certain total number of downloads, others allow unlimited total downloads but limit the number of accessible copies (the number checked out).
    • If the number of copies being used >= the total number allowed then you don't get to download a copy until a copy is checked in (the DRM expires and the file can no longer be decrypted)
    • The positives of downloadable audio books are mentioned in the article.
    • Much of what you say about what libraries should be doing is exactly what they are doing. They are just doing it within the confines of the law and the wishes of the copyright holders.
    • What you can or can not do with something you purchase is totally irrelevant to this discussion because you aren't buying the anything in this case. You are borrowing from a library by the largesse of the copyright holder.
    • As libraries generally depend upon good with with writers and publishers, making demands may be a bad idea.
    • Even a good library will not have everything one may want. And, if something is extremely popular, like The Da Vinci Code, you may have quite a wait for the book.

    And to refute some of your points:
    • The copyright holder is the one who decides who can make copies, how many copies are made, and how they are distributed.
    • The copyright holder gets to decide if a DRM "period" is bogus, not the library, and not you.
    • A library is only able to lend books because the copyright holder allows them to do so. Libraries often pay a premium for the priviledge. This is why a library often charges more than the face value for a book when it is lost.
    • The point of a library is to provide access, not copies. They are called lending libraries for a reason.
    • Speaking of which, libraries don't have to let the items leave the premises.

    In the end, what you have is a copyright holder sacrificing some revenue so an institution may have the priviledge to provide information to the public, i.e. you. It would be rude and unethical to go against the copyright holders wishes.
    --
    There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  35. My favorite DRM exploit. . . by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 2, Funny
    In one of the several Miles Vorkosigan novels, the Ender-like genius needed a file from a military protected computer system. He was assured that there was simply no way to by-pass the high level protection system. A file will simply not leave the computer it is on unless the user had the correct authority, etc.

    This was just a minor blip in Mile's day (to paraphrase); "What? But I absolutely need to read that file. Can't you just send it to me?" (This is over a telecom system. He was phoning from deep space or somewhere to a buddy in mission control.)

    "Sorry, Miles. There's just no way. This file will simply not leave this terminal."

    "Well. . ." Miles thought. "Why don't you just turn the terminal around so that it faces the vid camera, and I can just read it from here."

    "Hm. Okay."

    Done and done. He earned a commendation for that one. The security chiefs in sci-fi books aren't very bright, it seems.


    -FL

  36. uhh... by XO · · Score: 2, Informative

    See, everyone here is completely missing the point. Not just a little off, but TOTALLY MISSING. (at least in the first 40 comments, that I read before I clicked reply)

      Going to the library and borrowing a book that belongs to the library does not transfer you ownership of that book. This is why they call it BORROW. That doesn't change if it's a book on cassette, or a book on CD, or a book on any other kind of media.

      Unless you (collective) can suggest a better alternative than "per unit ownership", which I highly doubt you (collective) will be able to do, that's the way it is going to work. You don't go to a library to permanently take their book. And it's not the scarcity of it that makes it need to be returned. They own one, they can loan one. The library could make a zillion copies on their copier, but they DON'T because they've only paid for the number that are in the library. And what do you pay to get a book from your local library? or a magazine? or a CD? or whatever?

      Everywhere I've been the use of the library was free for city residents, and a once a year minimal charge for non-city residents. In fact, where I'm at now, the entire resources of the library are free, including internet access (though they do give you a fifteen minute time limit if there are other people waiting to use the machines). The only thing I've had to pay for there is paper for the copier/printer.

      So, who's got a better idea for how to sell a book, a CD, a movie, a whatever, than on a per-unit basis?

    --
    "Champagne for my real friends - and real pain for my sham friends!" http://ericblade.postalboard.com/
  37. Hate to see it fail by Blitzenn · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I honestly don't care who's DRM scheme it is. I hat eto see this type of lending program fail. With publishers recent push to keep electronic version out of the hands of more than one person, it seems to me that they are backtracking on long established practice. I can always purchase book and when I am done with it, I can give it to a friend or family member and they can read it and so on. Now with Digital books, because of the new scheme, If I purchase one, I am the only person who can ever read it. I cannot lend it to someone or donate it a library (well there are a couple of ebooks donation programs, but they are difficult to use and you never own the book). To see it work from the other way around, a library purchasing the ebook and allowing many people to read it, is wonderful and should be fostered, no matter who's DRM scheme is used. Bickering of what schemes is only goign to play into the hands of publishers. I hate to see people state they will never use it simmply because it has an MS branding. You hurt all of us that way. We need it to work first and get established, then we can bicker over the software.

  38. My Library Does This by randomErr · · Score: 2, Informative

    My local library is a part of a group that uses DRM books. You login to the system, download an application that interrupts a custom XML stream. The XML file then has key and paths for downloading the media files. Then it downloads the file and boom, you have a book (audio or textual) for three weeks of use with an option of burning it to CD.

    --
    You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
  39. Gre by egriebel · · Score: 2, Informative
    From TFA, libraries pay a fee ($5k) and get a set number of downloads, which if exceeded require more payment.

    This is the crux of the DRM problem: YOU DO NOT OWN ANYTHING!!! These libraries will be paying $5k in perpetuity if they want to continue to provide these books.

    It's like Napster2, if you decide to stop paying, you lose all of your music. If they raise their fees, you pay. If they change license terms, you pay. If they go out of business, you pay (someone else).

    Sounds like someone's going to be getting a raise, because this is pure genius on the part of NetLibrary and OverDrive.

    --
    ACHTUNG! Das computermachine ist nicht fuer gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen.
  40. Re:My main concern... by tkrotchko · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What you're saying would be okay for a private business.

    But the public library is funded by taxpayers and has an obligation to serve the interests of the general taxpayer.

    It seems to me this was chosen for the convenience of the library and not for the taxpayers who have overwhelmingly chosen the iPod.

    As for your comment that "DRM is needed to not break the law", I've never heard that before! In fact, I borrrow books on tape, music CD's, and all sorts of stuff from my local library and none of them has DRM. So perhaps you're mistaken about DRM mandated by law?

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
  41. Re:Sucks by HitScan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm quite sure it's free to check these out too. In either case you're definately not allowed to keep items you check out forever, such as you are with a sound file.

    Knowing that, do you really think any company, anywhere would license a library to distribute whole audiobooks without some sort of expiring DRM? a single book on CD costs close to $70, they're never going to let us give them away for free.

    Libraries do exist to get information and literature to any and all who want it, but we don't make the stuff, so if there's a license involved, we have to follow it.

    There are other libraries that do other things though. Since you can't easily copy things from your ipod to your PC, they load iPods up with audiobooks and then check out the whole thing, without any expiring DRM. That costs more though, and people still have to wait for a physical device to come back. But as long as I'm allowed to use my own headphones, that's really what I would prefer. (And not just because my wife is too cheap to let me buy an iPod! ;) )

    --
    HitScan
  42. Doctrine of First Sale still exists, despite M$ by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 2, Informative
    That right still exists. It's called Doctrine of First Sale. However, to hear M$ and the MPAA/RIAA/DIsney and all those others in that group go on about it you'd think that First Sale and many other established rules of commerce don't apply to computers. :
    • First Sale - it's yours
    • Freedom of Information - strongest in Finland / Sweden, weakest in UK/France
    • Fair Use - the purpose of copyright is to promote science and the useful arts
    • Common Carriage - if you carry goods or traffic, it has to be available to all
    The latter is relevant, since computers are used for communication. That's not just VOIP, but also written communication.

    Digital Restrictions Management technologies threaten to remove all of those above, especially if people just sit back and let monopolies or cartels roll over the market.

    --
    Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
    1. Re:Doctrine of First Sale still exists, despite M$ by Blitzenn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't disagree with your stance and words, it's just not reality out there right now. If you buy a DRM'd ebook today, MS, Mobi, Adobe, I don't care who. It can only be used on your viewer that was verified to match the DRM'd book. So with that being said, I can not share a book or pass it on to anyone else, ever, if I bought it in electronic format. That's stiffling the format in my eyes. I prefer to read my books in an ebook format. It's just so much easier to do, to read, to carry, etc. Why should I be punished for buying in a different format? I still buy hardcover and paperback books simply because I want to share them with the rest of my family if they are worthwhile. I don't have that option with an ebook. It sucks and seems to me a quiet way for publishers to severely tighten their restrictions while trying to migrate people away from physical media. The library option would put a big crimp on that plan. I would be happy to buy my books and donate them to the library afterwards, if they could be used again. I would be happy to borrow ebooks from my library, but they are forced to purchase them today, and cannot rely on donates, such as my local rural library relys on almost completely. Therefore they don't have any ebooks. We need someone to push this in the right direction and get it going, once it is established, we can worry about who's ladder we used to escape the fire. If we argue about the ladder while we all stand in the burning building, then we all die and lose and the publishers win, because everyone who cares about the issue is tied up arguing about the provider and not watching the fire.

  43. Right to read by xmda · · Score: 2

    It is now time again for reminding you all of what might happen if this goes too far:

    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html

  44. DRM is bad, period. by nothingx · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think only because this is the least evil use of DRM any of us have ever seen, is everyone saying it's a good thing. While it is true that I, and most other people, would be willing to tollerate this kind of DRM, it is still nonetheless evil, and here is why.

    When you go to the library to do some research, they have publicly available copying machines. You can make your own copy of anything they have there for a small fee. Typically the fee is whatever it costs for paper, ink, and maintaining the copier. That copy is then yours, it never expires, and you can do whatever you need to with it provided that you're not profiting from the work. This is FAIR USE.

    If libraries actually needed to control documents, they would've been loading their copiers with dissapearing inks since the invention of the copier!! What has changed between now and then? Nothing! There is not, and never has been an actual need for DRM. It's just some bullshit scheme by the DRM manufacturers that's been cleverly sold to the library system, which will be shoved down the throats of every day users.

    DRM is bad, period. Do not ever accept it as fair, because it is not.

  45. Re:Pointless and wrong by asuffield · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Authors rely on sales for their livelyhood. How many of your favorite books would not have been written if the author had to wait tables or work construction to put food on the table and a roof over their head?

    Probably about all of them would have been written, given that pretty much every author has to do that. The number of authors who do not have to hold down a day job in order to finance their writing career is infinitesimal, and even the big names take years before they're making enough money to be able to work on nothing else.

    Publishers make money. Retailers make money. Construction workers make money. Authors make books. If they wanted money, they'd be publishers or retailers, not authors. Just about everything pays better than being an author.

  46. It is a pack with the devil though by einhverfr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I wonder though how the industry will eventually respond now that the DMCA has given them commercial rights to restrict access to digital works.

    Which would you rather have? Everybody forced to buy their own copies? Or being able to borrow them at the library?

    I think it is only a matter of time before our libraries are targetted by the industry as unfair competition.

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP