Mazda Switches To USB Keys

great, another point of failure by hqm · 2005-09-01 07:47 · Score: 5, Insightful

Now you don't have to lose your keys, just have to get them in salty water, or rub your feet on the carpet and touch them, or ....

Re:great, another point of failure by lukewarmfusion · 2005-09-01 07:54 · Score: 4, Informative

I have a PNY Attache.

I've gone swimming in the lake with it in my bathing suit pocket, worn fuzzy sweaters on thick carpet, and accidentally slammed it against some concrete (swinging it on a cord when the cord broke).

The thing is really durable, and I'm certainly not gentle with it.

Still works beautifully. YMMV.
Re:great, another point of failure by ari_j · 2005-09-01 07:58 · Score: 3, Interesting

How about running over it with a grain truck when the ambient temperature is -40 (celsius or fahrenheit, your pick)? I can do that with my keys right now and they still work.
Re:great, another point of failure by Saven+Marek · 2005-09-01 08:04 · Score: 5, Insightful

...or take them to work. many many it workplaces ban the bringing of usb keys into the premises just as they do cell phones and ipods because of being a security risk.

so you can't drive this car to work people
Re:great, another point of failure by Anonymous+Custard · 2005-09-01 08:05 · Score: 4, Insightful

How about running over it with a grain truck when the ambient temperature is -40 (celsius or fahrenheit, your pick)? I can do that with my keys right now and they still work.

At -40 I'd be more worried about that little car even working than about crushing your keys.

--
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Re:great, another point of failure by Evil+Adrian · 2005-09-01 08:10 · Score: 5, Funny

Why are you running over your keys? Are you stupid? Or are you just making a stupid argument for argument's sake?

Who has ever run over their keys, incidentally? Seems like the keys need to be IN THE CAR IN THE FIRST PLACE for the thing to even be running to run something over.

Your post angered me. Almost irrationally so. But I think I'm right.

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evil adrian
Re:great, another point of failure by over_exposed · 2005-09-01 08:14 · Score: 3, Insightful

If I had mod points, they'd be yours. I know a lot of places who disallow things like that. If the key can hold music, it can hold "company secrets" and all sorts of nasty things you want to sneak past a company firewall.

--
"The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his." - Patton
Re:great, another point of failure by dirkdidit · 2005-09-01 08:17 · Score: 2, Funny

Pfft, 40 below? Come on, that's like a nice day in January up here in North Dakota. They don't even call school off for that. It's gotta be closer to 50 or 60 below before people start to worry. Toss a block heater in it and it'll be good to go.
Re:great, another point of failure by ari_j · 2005-09-01 08:19 · Score: 4, Funny

You may find this shocking, but this is a problem that occurs due to the existence and proximity of other vehicles. As to the likelihood of this happening, I can't say that it's high. Or even measurable. However, it does exist. Say that you drive up to your house and walk across your cement driveway to the front door, shivering and hurried due to the extreme cold. There is probably also some wind. Yes, wind. Lots of wind. So you're fighting the wind, the cold, and hypothermia by this point, and you are carrying in groceries, a briefcase, and your gym bag. Your keys fall onto the driveway. You live in a secluded spot (secluded mostly due to the climate, if you can imagine that) so your front door is never locked, and you don't need the keys to get inside. You don't even know you're missing them until after you put the groceries away, and by then someone else has pulled up onto the driveway in a truck, running over your keys in the process.

You're right that this is an excessively rare occurrence, but you are not right for the right reasons. You assume that either there is only one vehicle in all the world or that it requires stupidity to run over a car key. Neither assumption is valid, but your anger is. :)
Re:great, another point of failure by ari_j · 2005-09-01 08:22 · Score: 5, Funny

Wow. There are officially four Nodaks on Slashdot. :)
Re:great, another point of failure by jellomizer · 2005-09-01 08:22 · Score: 4, Funny

Who has ever run over their keys, incidentally? Seems like the keys need to be IN THE CAR IN THE FIRST PLACE for the thing to even be running to run something over.

You work in a place with construction. You have your keys in your pocket but your hands a numb because of the cold. You try to put your car keys in your pocket but miss. They fall in the snow which muffles the sound. You get into the construction vehicle put it in reverse and you drive over your keys, after you have feeling in your hands maybe after 5 minutes you realize that you don't have your car keys so you start looking for them. You will walk in the tracks of the truck because it is easier walking and you happen to find the glint of your keys for your car you pick it up. And at the end of the day you put it in your car and it works.

I am sorry but your post angered me. Almost irrationally so. But I think I made a good counter argument.

--
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:great, another point of failure by nocomment · 2005-09-01 08:28 · Score: 4, Funny

So that's 100% of ND reads /.? ;)

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Re:great, another point of failure by Moofie · 2005-09-01 08:29 · Score: 3, Funny

My mittens fold back off of my digits when I need dexterity. Your mittens are clearly inferior. : )

--
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Re:great, another point of failure by halr9000 · 2005-09-01 08:30 · Score: 2, Insightful

So perhaps it would wake up the eyes of your employer and their draconian policies? Just a thought. I know this won't work for every company (like banks), but if I were the CIO of a company, I'd just make HR policies with strict punishments and train the employees on those policies. Then you can treat your employees like adults instead of children.
Re:great, another point of failure by robertjw · 2005-09-01 08:30 · Score: 2, Funny

Don't think he was attacking your grammar, he was insinuating that you were irrational, genius.

--
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Re:great, another point of failure by ivan256 · 2005-09-01 08:33 · Score: 3, Insightful

Such workplaces will have to come to grips with the fact that they'll need to trust their employees instead of enforceing draconian policies. After all, they need to trust their employees anyway, since policies like that are impossible to enforce, and any determined employee will find a simple way around the policy anyway.
Re:great, another point of failure by Overzeetop · 2005-09-01 08:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

Hope you never need to work in a classified environment. In that case its not a company thing, but a national security thing. And, no, humans as a group cannot be trusted.

--
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Re:great, another point of failure by Frank+T.+Lofaro+Jr. · 2005-09-01 08:57 · Score: 2, Funny

Yet you're allowed to post to Slashdot.

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Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Re:great, another point of failure by FragHARD · 2005-09-01 10:00 · Score: 2, Funny

<>

Well to get traction on the ice of course because he forgot to put chains in the car.

--
FragHARD or don't frag at all

"Mazda Sassou" Gesundheit! by Anonymous Coward · 2005-09-01 07:47 · Score: 4, Funny

Sounds like a Japanese sneeze.

Start the clock by Limburgher · 2005-09-01 07:47 · Score: 5, Insightful

How long before someone hacks it to:

A: Start multiple cars that they own

B: Start other people's cars

--

You are not the customer.

Security? by BlackCobra43 · 2005-09-01 07:47 · Score: 4, Insightful

How secure is this compared to a traditionnal key?

Really, "keygens" could be given a whole new meaning...

--
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Re:Security? by owlstead · 2005-09-01 08:17 · Score: 5, Informative

There are many USB tokens on the market. Probably a few of them will handle 2048 bit RSA keys. This is as strong asymetric encryption as you'll ever need.

What you do is you send a challenge (random bytes) from the car to the token. It encrypts (read: signs) the challenge with the private key. Now the encrypted challenge can only be decrypted by the public key. The car does this and if it finds the challenge it knows that the token has the secret private key of the public/private key pair.

These chips can keep the private key pretty safe, so safe that it is really, really hard to get it ever out of the chip, even in a big lab. And with USB it is pretty easy to put some MB's or GB's next to it.

All this said, such a key would be easy to loose (forget you put it in a computer somewhere), and USB has not such a strong connector (even if better than most computer connectors). I hope they used one that was designed from scratch. It's not so much the security that I worry about.
Re:Security? by owlstead · 2005-09-01 09:26 · Score: 2, Insightful

Well, they needed to get to the chip first, then they would have a pretty good microscope (not your default kind of thingy) and they their attack might work. But nowadays most of the keys are stored encrypted with another (symetric) key that is not stored in main memory. Other kinds of memory are much harder to read. Note that this article has been published in 2002 and still smart card IC's get a CC AEL4+ rating. Not to say that there are no problems - attacking a chip with this attack has a much higher success rate than attacking an RSA key with any length over 512 bits. But this attack would at least be rather much for a car thief, even one that has a big criminal network behind it.
Re:Security? by ZakMcCracken · 2005-09-01 10:20 · Score: 2, Interesting

Public key cryptographic security would probably be overkill for a simple one-to-one transaction like this one.

What is likely to have been engineered, rather, is that a short secret (~128 bits) has been stored on the key and on the car, both with physical security (as in a smartcard). Then, the car can authenticate the key using a simple challenge / response protocol based on secret key cryptography.

The short secret itself is probably generated from a master secret, a key derivation algorithm and the car's serial number.
Re:Security? by owlstead · 2005-09-01 11:09 · Score: 2, Interesting

Yep, that would work. As long as the keys are safe, you wouldn't want anyone be able to copy the keys. Besides stealing the car, their would be no prove that someone did not have access granted or not (fraud).

The protocol is not that much of an issue (as long as it is chosen with care). The other practical considerations are much more important. Even RSA processors are not that expensive anymore, but I agree that it would be overkill for this kind of "problem".
Re:Security? by patio11 · 2005-09-01 13:28 · Score: 2, Informative

You've got it backwards (public key encrypts, private key decrypts) but are otherwise correct.

--
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.

Oh great. by GMFTatsujin · 2005-09-01 07:47 · Score: 3, Insightful

Considering that my USB key just died yesterday after about a year of use, taking lots of yummy files with it, my heart THRILLS at this news.

Re:Oh great. by ad0gg · 2005-09-01 07:50 · Score: 4, Funny

Considering that my USB key just died yesterday after about a year of use, taking lots of yummy files with it, my heart THRILLS at this news.
Yummy files? Is that the new term for porn?

--
Have you ever been to a turkish prison?

Reliable? by EvilSporkMan · 2005-09-01 07:47 · Score: 2, Informative

Every USB drive I've ever owned has started to get a little flaky after a bit, and I don't abuse them (except the first one). It'd be a bummer if I couldn't start my car because my USB drive had bad sectors.

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-insert a witty something-

Re:Reliable? by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · 2005-09-01 08:03 · Score: 2, Funny

Every USB drive I've ever owned has started to get a little flaky after a bit

After only one bit? it really isn't reliable...

--
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash

Concept car only. by CerebusUS · 2005-09-01 07:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

Cool idea, but wake me when you can actually buy one.

not only does your mp3 player have a virus... by bubba_the_mermaid · 2005-09-01 07:48 · Score: 2, Funny

but your Mazda 3 has one as well.

Will I get calls from my friends to help them get the spyware and viruses off of their car now too?

Re:not only does your mp3 player have a virus... by pYrOmiLkMaN · 2005-09-01 08:00 · Score: 2, Funny

Popups would suck while driving.

This should be an adventure by GecKo213 · 2005-09-01 07:48 · Score: 2, Interesting

Locksmiths everywhere will be out of business unless they start carying USB Flash drives. Won't it be fun when someone writes a program that will program all possibly key codes onto a 10 Gig flash driver or something and these cars just start dissapearing? I can't wait to be the first in line to buy one of these!

--
Generation Trance: What generation are you?

Re:This should be an adventure by nyrk · 2005-09-01 07:54 · Score: 4, Interesting

This already happens in a way. In high school it was pretty well known that most toyota keys would work on most toyota cars. I had a toyota pickup, and even though the keys were not the same, I was on one occasion able to enter, and start up a friend's truck. He happened to be walking on the sidewalk, and I drove past him as I was moving it to the back parking lot. That took a while to explain. Later though, he did help me when I locked my keys in my truck.
The point is, just because you see a failure mode in it doesn't mean that that he old way didn't have the a similar one

This is a BAD idea. by Tuxedo+Jack · 2005-09-01 07:48 · Score: 4, Insightful

What if someone uses something like Ghost to dupe the USB key to a key of their own? Unless this is a chip-based key, it won't be secure at all - and I don't know about you, but I don't want someone going to Best Buy and buying a $20 USB key to dupe my car key onto.

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Striking fear in the authors of godawful fanfiction, I am here, appearing in darkness, Tuxedo Jack!

Re:This is a BAD idea. by Piquan · 2005-09-01 07:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

As opposed to today, where they can go into any hardware store and buy a $1 blank and $3 service to dup your key onto another key?
Re:This is a BAD idea. by Jeff+DeMaagd · 2005-09-01 08:04 · Score: 2, Interesting

Aren't there secure USB key standards, where only authenticated software can even retrieve the data? I'm sure something like that can be done.

I think it could be used to implement a "use twice" key, so that if the valets try to use it on a joyride, the owner would know.
Re:This is a BAD idea. by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · 2005-09-01 08:18 · Score: 4, Interesting

Today I can borrow a key for a few hours and go get a copy made, or I can make an impression of that key in just a minute, cast a model, and spend a few hours with my dremel tool making a duplicate that may or may not be good enough. I can duplicate a USB key in just a few minutes while you're in the bathroom. This just makes it even easier for someone with common off-the-shelf technology to make a copy. It has added functionality, but it is also less reliable and may be a vector for computer viruses to infect your car. Personally, I'll stick with an old fashioned key and a hidden kill switch.
Re:This is a BAD idea. by Kurt+Granroth · 2005-09-01 08:27 · Score: 2

As opposed to today, where they can go into any hardware store and buy a $1 blank and $3 service to dup your key onto another key?
Will that work with any new cars? The last three cars I've owned all had keys with chips in them. Lose the key and the dealer charges between $100 and $200 to replace it.
I'd imagine that the USB key would work somehow similar. Maybe it could encrypt the contents using some unique hardware ID associated with the key. If you lost it, you would have to go to the dealer to get a replacement ... just like you (or me, at least) have to now.
Re:This is a BAD idea. by Octagon+Most · 2005-09-01 09:04 · Score: 5, Funny

"I can duplicate a USB key in just a few minutes while you're in the bathroom.

Since my keys are always in my pocket I will probably find your actions suspicious.

Great, but its a concept... by sTalking_Goat · 2005-09-01 07:48 · Score: 2, Informative

and only the most mundane parts of concept cars ever make it into production. Nothing to see here.

--

My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle...

Driving Instructions? by dave-tx · 2005-09-01 07:49 · Score: 5, Funny

The key can also be used to transfer things like driving instructions

Sorry, but I don't want to be on the freeway with someone who needs instructions on how to drive.

--

>> "What would the robut do? Frame someone!"

Re:Driving Instructions? by sapped · 2005-09-01 08:33 · Score: 4, Funny

Sorry, but I don't want to be on the freeway with someone who needs instructions on how to drive.

Steer clear of the 405 around LA. Oh and the 110 and the 101... Forget it. Just don't drive anywhere in Southern California.

Uh... great. by mcc · 2005-09-01 07:49 · Score: 2, Funny

Aand.. what happens when you accidentally drop your usb "key" in the fishtank?

--
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Drives? Hard Drives? by Lead+Butthead · 2005-09-01 07:49 · Score: 4, Insightful

The key can also be used to transfer things like driving instructions or music to the car's hard drive.

So when the drive crashes, what happens? Are the vehicles owner permitted to make "archival" copies of the drive content? What sort of information are kept on these hard drives? Can the content of the drive be used against the owner in some way? Questions, so many questions...

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ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?

Security by linguae · 2005-09-01 07:49 · Score: 2, Interesting

Woohoo, my first first post

Anyways, back on topic, I think that the idea of using a USB key that holds directions and other information, as well as starting the vehicle, is a nice and innovative idea. However, the article nor the specifications state anything about where the information about starting the car is stored on the USB drive. My only potential worry about this is the failure of the USB port or computer inside of the vehicle (you can't start your car manually), and whether or not we'll see "Mazda bootkits" widely available online by crackers who now have something else to break in to.

Still, it is quite innovative.

Security for everything by Iriel · 2005-09-01 07:50 · Score: 2, Interesting

I guess that this system is going to have to rock solid. Otherwise, I'd hate to see the day that all these cars are shut down (or worse) by starting their car with a USB key infected with a Mazda.b worm from their PC.

"And I thought I was just loading some new tunes!"

--
Perfecting Discordia
www.stevenvansickle.com

Re:Security for everything by Ced_Ex · 2005-09-01 08:17 · Score: 4, Funny

Your naiveté betrays you -- there is no such thing as "rock solid". Ever.

What if you're talking about rocks?

--
Live forever, or die trying.

What happened to RFID? by mungtor · 2005-09-01 07:50 · Score: 5, Informative

RFID would be the way to go. I though that somebody (Mercedes, Lexus?) had one of their uber-expensive cars set up so that you carried an RFID chip in a credit card in your wallet. When you pulled up on the doorhandle it checked your ID and unlocked. Automatically locked when you got more than 20 feet away, and only had a push-button for a starter.

Or, it could have all been a dream.

Re:What happened to RFID? by Nos. · 2005-09-01 08:01 · Score: 2, Informative

The Cadillac XLR is the first vehicle I know of that had these features.
Re:What happened to RFID? by SFEley · 2005-09-01 08:08 · Score: 5, Interesting

It's not an "uber-expensive" feature; my Toyota Prius has it, and the car only cost $25,000. The RFID key's not a credit card, it's a fob on my keychain, but it's extremely convenient not to have to pull anything out to unlock my car or start it.

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ESCAPE POD - The Science Fiction Podcast Magazine
Re:What happened to RFID? by Richy_T · 2005-09-01 08:21 · Score: 2, Interesting

RFID really isn't expensive. Plug for the company I used to work for: Affordable RFID kits. If you call the owner, he's a great chap and happy to answer any questions you might have.
Rich
Re:What happened to RFID? by ptbarnett · 2005-09-01 08:46 · Score: 3, Informative
My Acura RL has this feature, although it's not uber-expensive.
The dongle is about the size of a standard remote, and has the same buttons on it (lock, unlock, open trunk, panic). The difference is that while carrying it in my pocket, putting my hand on the inside of the door handle unlocks the car. Touching a raised dimple on the outside of the door handle locks the car.
Other features:
- The trunk can be opened in the same fashion: just lift up on the release above the license plate while the remote is in your pocket or purse.
- The car will not lock when the remote is inside the car. The trunk will not close and lock if the remote was dropped into the trunk.
- The remotes are coded #1 and #2. Depending on which one enters the car, it chooses one of two sets of driver seat position, side-view mirror positions, steering wheel position, radio station presets, cell-phone hands-free directory (it uses Bluetooth to communicate with my phone, but doesn't have access to the phone's directory), and navigation system settings.
Re:What happened to RFID? by Elwood+P+Dowd · 2005-09-01 08:56 · Score: 4, Funny

The car will not lock when the remote is inside the car.
This is going to be a plot element in a thriller at some point in the future.

--

There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Re:What happened to RFID? by giminy · 2005-09-01 15:31 · Score: 3, Funny

I don't know what happens if only the rear seats are occupied

I believe the dome light slowly fades out, and funk starts playing on the radio...

--
The Right Reverend K. Reid Wightman,

Soon to be implemented... by WombatControl · 2005-09-01 07:52 · Score: 4, Funny

Rumor has it that Mazda will introduce the new flash-drive technology on the 2006 Mazda 3.1. In the future they intend to make a version that can start via a network and is outfitted for carpooling - the Mazda 3.11 for Workgroups - until they get an 8-cylinder version, the Mazda 95.

(And while I may poke fun, I'm a happy owner of a 2005 Mazda 3, which is a damn good car - especially for the gas mileage...)

Re:Soon to be implemented... by silvaran · 2005-09-01 08:24 · Score: 2, Funny

the Mazda 3.11 for Workgroups - until they get an 8-cylinder version, the Mazda 95.

Would that be the 3-cylinder one with another 5 cylinders bolted on?

Re:frist post by bradbeattie · 2005-09-01 07:53 · Score: 2, Funny

As far as I can tell, the first post was over on Fark.

SCIF by Copperhead · 2005-09-01 07:53 · Score: 5, Interesting

My office is a classified environment, and USB drives ain't allowed in the door. Where am I supposed to put my keys?

--
Your reality is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. - Baron Munchausen

My first written complaint about /. by Skynyrd · 2005-09-01 07:53 · Score: 5, Informative

"Mazda switches to USB keys"

Um, no.

Mazda put a USB key in a freakin' concept car. There's no USB keys in any Mazda at any dealership now. It might happen some day down the road.

"Switches" my ass. "Tries out"? "Messes about with"?

Come on guys.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief by Philmeeh · 2005-09-01 07:53 · Score: 4, Funny

Ahhh but look on the bright side - without a USB key they won't be able to upload their music to your harddrive

If by "Mazda switching to USB keys" by spyrral · 2005-09-01 07:55 · Score: 5, Insightful

...you mean Mazda experimenting with using USB drives as a key in a concept car, then yes.

Better than most. by tgd · 2005-09-01 07:56 · Score: 4, Informative

Most car models that don't have a radio immobilizer of some kind (which is most cars) only have maybe 30 different keys for the whole model production. A lot of repo guys have key rings with all the standard keys for high-repo models.

I've actually found a color/key collision before when I was a kid. My mom and I almost drove off with someone else's car until we realized it was WAY too clean to be our car and we were in the wrong one.

Thats also why you can go online and order key dupes using the number stamped on the key or in some cases the VIN.

(Not many people seem to know all you need is the VIN and a contact at a dealer to get a key, as well... and the VIN is visible on modern cars through the windshield)

There is no real security with cars. If someone wants it, they can take it.

Re:Better than most. by LightningBolt! · 2005-09-01 08:24 · Score: 5, Funny

Not many people seem to know all you need is the VIN and a contact at a dealer to get a key, as well... and the VIN is visible on modern cars through the windshield

To be more specific, you need to have a sketchy contact at a dealer. In real terms, this translates to "anyone in sales or financing".

--
Old people fall. Young people spring. Rich people summer and winter.
Re:Better than most. by meloneg · 2005-09-01 08:53 · Score: 2, Interesting

I prefer to go with the less-desirable-than-your-car approach.

That's why I drive a ten-year-old car with almost 200K miles on it. I frequently leave the windows open on a hot day, if I don't have anything valuable in the car.

Anybody desperate enough to steal it needs it more than I do. Its not even fast enough to attract joyriders.

But, it does it get me around just fine. And, I bought it outright for about 3 monthly new car payments.
Re:Better than most. by lostchicken · 2005-09-01 09:36 · Score: 3, Interesting

On the Lexus (at least on my IS), while there are only a few mechanical keys that are in circulation, each key needs a radio transponder in it that's interrogated to start the car. The ID is specific to the key, but you can tell the car (through a bizarre song and dance involving turning the key a couple of times and pumping the accelerator) to allow a new key to pair with the car.

So, you can add a key to the car, but you need at least one key to get the thing in the programming mode. They don't store that code anywhere, so if you lose all four keys it came with, you have to buy a new ECU. Really, really expensive. Also hard to steal.

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-twb

Re:Grant theft Auto by Timesprout · 2005-09-01 07:56 · Score: 2, Insightful

As opposed to some kid with a screwdriver.

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Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe

Ignition may not be in the drive by devnullkac · 2005-09-01 07:56 · Score: 3, Interesting

The USB drive may simply be an add-on to the "keyless" ignition of the 2004 Prius: RFID authenticates with the ignition system when in close proximity. This way you've got a neat storage doodad, but the car will still run if your virus-ridden laptop reformats the USB drive.

--
What do you mean they cut the power? How can they cut the power, man? They're animals!

Key Loss? by sedyn · 2005-09-01 07:59 · Score: 3, Funny

Wouldn't key loss, and hacking issues be absolved by biometrics?

And as for damaging a biometric key, I think in this case the user has bigger problems... Well unless they need to drive to the hospital without a thumb.

--
Am I open minded towards open source, or closed minded towards closed source?

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief by stupidfoo · 2005-09-01 08:01 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'd be interested to see them do this on a relatively new BMW or Mercedes or a myriad of other luxury cars because you can't just "hotwire" them. No matter what wires you twist together nothing is going to happen.

Renault by Anonymous Coward · 2005-09-01 08:01 · Score: 2, Informative

All current renault cars use a key of this type: it's and rfid card that you put in a slot or, depending on the model, keep in your pocket.
I have the model you have to put in a slot and it has worked reliably for the last two years.

Server down, here are some other news sites by mpieters · 2005-09-01 08:04 · Score: 2, Informative

The server doesn't respond anymore, no coral cache is available either, and mirrordot only has the text of the article and broken images, so here are some links to other sites reporting on the concept car, with pictures:

--
"The truth shall make ye fret" -- The Truth, Terry Pratchett

Keys in Secure areas by Sir_Stinksalot · 2005-09-01 08:11 · Score: 2, Insightful

Now I won't even be able to take my car keys into secure areas. It's bad enough that every cdr I take in can never come out but now my keys too!

--
"We can no longer live as rats... we know too much." -Secret of NIMH

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief by cgadd · 2005-09-01 08:20 · Score: 5, Informative

No, without commands from the computer to fire the injectors, etc, it won't start.

We don't need software to start cars by John+Seminal · 2005-09-01 08:24 · Score: 3, Insightful

How long before someone hacks it to:

A: Start multiple cars that they own

B: Start other people's cars

Not that long. By having USB devices to start cars, soon hackers will be doing more than writing viruses and "testing" websites. They will be stealing your car.

But this is a larger problem than meets the eye. If software is used to start a car, how long until government gets creative? What kinds of algorthims can be put in the car computer?

If there is a gas outage, the new flash only allows the car to be driven 100 miles per week, then you can't start it until next week?
Since there is an algorithm that makes each car unique, how long until the car broadcasts its VIN number to anyone who wants to listen? Will cops knock on your door because you parked in a mall, next to a store that had shoplifters?
How long until my car decides I am driving to fast, and calls the police to mail me a ticket. Before you write this off as never_gonna_happen, consider that many highways now have radar guns attached to cameras, and they mail out tickets in the mail.
And how long until a bank robber and hacker changes your flash to mask the car that robbed the bank. Imagine the extra people the police will need to hire to straighten out the messes. And imagine how many more tickets they will need to write to pay for those new employees.

The only good thing for software like this is we can keep track of kids. We can program cars that are started with certian USB keys, that the car will stop if it drives to a certain area. For example, we can have zones the car is not allowed to enter. We can also have software on the computer, to know what family member has the car, and where they are. Maybe we can even set up cars, so if the 16 year old daughter is going out with her friends, that the radio really listens to what is going on in the car to make sure she is not picking up a 18 year old drop out weed head. And if we hear something we don't like, we can drive to where the car is with out shotgun and have an old fashioned lynching.

--

Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."

Re:We don't need software to start cars by AKAImBatman · 2005-09-01 09:06 · Score: 2, Insightful

How long until my car decides I am driving to fast, and calls the police to mail me a ticket. Before you write this off as never_gonna_happen, consider that many highways now have radar guns attached to cameras, and they mail out tickets in the mail.

It's important to note that this sort of thing is far more ubiquitous in Europe than it is in the US. The US laws about entrapment, personal property, and privacy tend to preclude these sorts of measures.

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Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Re:We don't need software to start cars by Bagheera · 2005-09-01 09:52 · Score: 3, Informative

Not that long. By having USB devices to start cars, soon hackers will be doing more than writing viruses and "testing" websites. They will be stealing your car.

Assuming, of course, they can get past the physical layer to actually access the ignition system. This is a USB to start the car, not to open it. Since the other site was alread /.ed, I don't know what they're actually planning.

Fact is, they need physical access to steal your car, and it's not difficult to implement the system so making a "copy" of the key would be very difficult.

But this is a larger problem than meets the eye. If software is used to start a car, how long until government gets creative? What kinds of algorthims can be put in the car computer?

* If there is a gas outage, the new flash only allows the car to be driven 100 miles per week, then you can't start it until next week?

And they'll upload this into your physical device how, exactly?

* Since there is an algorithm that makes each car unique, how long until the car broadcasts its VIN number to anyone who wants to listen? Will cops knock on your door because you parked in a mall, next to a store that had shoplifters?

That's seperate from a USB car key, now isn't it. Putting a transponder on a car is ALREADY being done. That's essentially what a FastPass is now. Ping it, and it gives you a serial number.

* How long until my car decides I am driving to fast, and calls the police to mail me a ticket. Before you write this off as never_gonna_happen, consider that many highways now have radar guns attached to cameras, and they mail out tickets in the mail.

You mean like an automated radar system that takes pictures and sends you a ticket? Old news. Plus (as others have noted) some rental car companies already do that with GPS now.

* And how long until a bank robber and hacker changes your flash to mask the car that robbed the bank. Imagine the extra people the police will need to hire to straighten out the messes. And imagine how many more tickets they will need to write to pay for those new employees.

How, exactly, do they change MY flash to mimic their car? How is it going to take "extra people to sort out the mess" when this magic transponder is tracking two cars at the same time, one of which is obviously mine because it's the one parked at my house, while the other one obviously ISN'T mine because it was busy robbing a bank at the time.

The only good thing for software like this is we can keep track of kids. We can program cars that are started with certian USB keys, that the car will stop if it drives to a certain area. For example, we can have zones the car is not allowed to enter. We can also have software on the computer, to know what family member has the car, and where they are. Maybe we can even set up cars, so if the 16 year old daughter is going out with her friends, that the radio really listens to what is going on in the car to make sure she is not picking up a 18 year old drop out weed head. And if we hear something we don't like, we can drive to where the car is with out shotgun and have an old fashioned lynching.

Ok, repeat after me. "USB is not GPS." If you're going to get paranoid, at least keep your technologies straight. You're essentially ranting here and it doesn't wash. Numerous manufacturers already use microchips in their keys to effectively make sure they're the right key for the car. This USB key is really nothing more then adding some accessible memory to an existing technology.

Insightful?

Paranioid.

Mazda's doing something reasonably cool here. There's nothing wrong with it.

--
Never attribute to malice what can as easily be the result of incompetence...

Durability is more than physical toughness. by leshert · 2005-09-01 08:39 · Score: 2, Interesting

Given the ratio of usb-drives-I've-owned to usb-drives-I've-killed-presumably-from-ESD (which currently sits at 1:1), I'd be more worried about non-physical threats to the integrity of the device.

Last time I zapped a usb drive, I drove home and burned a CD from the backup I'd made. That might be problematic in this case.

Smart Key by alecks · 2005-09-01 08:40 · Score: 2, Interesting

I just bought an '05 Toyota Avalon that has the "smart key" system, which is very simliar to what you're saying. Don't think it's RFID, but it works the same. i keep the keys in my pocket at all times, when i'm near the car, it knows it and allows me to unlock just by touching the handle. When i'm inside the car, i can start it with a push of a button.
I love it.

--
The Digital Couture Collection

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief by TobyWong · 2005-09-01 08:41 · Score: 4, Interesting

Real thieves don't hotwire anyhow. They back up the tow truck and tow the car away, engine imobilizer and all. In broad daylight even. You don't need to start it to chop it into pieces.

If they REALLY wanted to do it they could still "hotwire" the newer cars by bringing a seperate matching key/column computer and splicing it into the car but why bother with this hassle when you can just tow?

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- Toby

whoo! by Zebra_X · 2005-09-01 08:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

planned obselecence reaches a new milestone. really how long is that key going to *really* last. 10 years? i don't think so...

Re:whoo! by The+Cisco+Kid · 2005-09-01 08:59 · Score: 2, Insightful

Yeah but its easy enough to make a backup.. In fact.. Hrm.. Your corner hardware store is going to need some new tech at its key-copy counter.. (At least for the non-geeks that need their keys copied)

"Keying" cars? by fbg111 · 2005-09-01 09:08 · Score: 2, Funny

Now, jamming chewed bubble-gum into your hated enemy's car keyhole takes on a new and devious meaning...

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Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams

Misleading Title by vi-rocks · 2005-09-01 09:27 · Score: 2, Informative

Don't want to be a "stick-in-the-mud" -- but Mazda Switches To USB Keys is a pretty misleading title.

"What? Mazda is using USB keys in all their cars??"

Ummm, no. Mazda experiments with USB key in concept car would be A LOT better.

usb = worst connector ever by libra-dragon · 2005-09-01 09:27 · Score: 3, Insightful

Take a look at any usb port and notice how scratched up the surrounding area is. This connector is an abomination. It seems I'm always putting the usb plug in upside down. Of course I can't be sure if it's upside down or just misaligned... Looking at the plug for the logo doesn't seem to help much --I had a laptop that had the ports upside down.

I doubt anyone can blindly plug in a usb device and achieve better than 90% accuracy. As for the keys to my current car it's ambidextrous, although not the case for my previous car. My proposal for USB 3.0 is to use the connector from an Atari 2600.

Re:usb = worst connector ever by rampant+poodle · 2005-09-01 10:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

Right about that. I always thought that the PS2 connector was a dumbshit design. Then along came USB. One of the elegant points of a metal key is it is reasonably self aligning. Most modern car keys are symmetricly cut and will work in either of the two possible positions.

Re:Key? What key? by phoenix321 · 2005-09-01 09:40 · Score: 3, Insightful

It's not about mechanical or other devices, it's about WEAR and TEAR after heavy use. The Prius keyfob almost never leaves your pocket, the car unlocks if you're near and locks if you walk away, fine.

The Mazda on the other NEEDS that USB stick plugged in to run. And then you have all sorts of people in the world who simply need to unlock/start/stop/lock their car a dozen times per day. Which means after a typical working year around 2500 plug-ins and pull-outs. If those USB devices, plug and socket, aren't built a hundred times stronger than your garden variety USB port and stick, the car key will never survive more than 2 years. No matter how clumsy you are (and most people are clumsy at least one or two days per year), the socket will wear out, the connection leads will lose contact or static electricity kills something inside. Remember the little shocks you sometimes get when touching a car? Static electricity. Some cars deliver more static electricity than others I suppose, but mine zaps me all the time. Not to mention isolating shoe soles on synthetic carpeting. Zapp. You watched Office Space? Good.

Morale of the story: things that are sensitive to static electricity and not hard wearing shouldn't be used as everyday access tokens for important things like cars and house doors. Make all the electronics inside a wireless keyfob and everything's fine. No wear on the connectors, no point of contact for static electricity. Everything else is bust and is in danger outside the dry home or office environment.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief by FragHARD · 2005-09-01 09:53 · Score: 2, Informative

< No, without commands from the computer to fire the injectors>

or the fuel pump or the electronic transmision or the radio!!!

--
FragHARD or don't frag at all

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief by zakezuke · 2005-09-01 09:59 · Score: 2, Insightful

If they REALLY wanted to do it they could still "hotwire" the newer cars by bringing a seperate matching key/column computer and splicing it into the car but why bother with this hassle when you can just tow?

If you are in the business of chopping up cars, this is reasonable. But if you are just some jackass who wants to take a joy ride... hot wiring, or hunting around for the magnetic extra key box box is a better solution.

--
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief by Bega · 2005-09-01 10:10 · Score: 2, Funny

In other news, RIAA sues car manufacturer for condoning piracy!

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THIS IS THE INTERNET. PLEASE PICK UP YOUR SERIOUS BUSINESS SUIT AT THE FRONT COUNTER.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief by mikael · 2005-09-01 10:18 · Score: 2, Funny

The electronics controlling the fuel ignition system will have all signals from the dashboard to the engine encrypted. Any attempts to reverse engineer this will be a violation of the DMCA legislation, Any violators wil be subjected to a large fine, have their car confiscated, and be required to write an essay saying why grand theft auto is bad.

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Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads

Wrong. by Poromenos1 · 2005-09-01 10:50 · Score: 2, Interesting

Yeah, I had that idea too. Read this. I was surprised that noone had thought of it. I recently read "Applied Cryptography" (an excellent book) and it had the exact same thing as an authentication protocol, and below it it said "It is foolish to encrypt arbitrary stringsnot only those sent by untrusted third parties, but under any circumstances at all". So much for my bright idea.

The solution he proposes is that "Alice makes some computation based on the random numbers (both the ones she generated and the one she received from the host) and her private key, and sends the result to the host. The host does some computation on the various numbers received from Alice and her public key to verify that she knows her private key".

There you have it, my brilliant idea foiled by chosen plaintext attacks.

--
Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief by triso · 2005-09-01 11:33 · Score: 2, Informative

If they REALLY wanted to do it they could still "hotwire" the newer cars by bringing a seperate matching key/column computer and splicing it into the car but why bother with this hassle when you can just tow?

They also need a geek on staff to make sure the car isn't broadcasting its position via a wireless GPS thingy (CarWings or Galileo).

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief by petermgreen · 2005-09-01 11:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

or they just point a gun at the drivers head and tell them to hand over the keys.

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note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register

security is about planning for the worst by DarthAngst · 2005-09-01 13:33 · Score: 5, Informative

If you work in a facility that requires you to not bring media into work so that you can't remove secret information, you deserve to be fired for bringing in a flash drive. Trusted insiders are the greatest threat, hence the need for policies. Such policies are very enforceable, and hold up under the law for the dismissal of employees who violate them. A good policy sets up not only what's forbidden, but also what to do if a security breach happens. Check http://www.sans.org/. If an employee is determined enough, he or she might just find a less restrictive job.

So now if YOu want to make a copy of your key by Cyberllama · 2005-09-01 15:24 · Score: 2, Interesting

You just dump the contents to your hard drive and copy it to a new USB flashdrive . . . No more trips to the hardware store.

Re:Hot Wiring: No Match for a Thief by Cyberax · 2005-09-01 19:57 · Score: 2, Interesting

There is a device called 'squid' (direct translation from Russian, I don't know how it's called in English), it's a little black box with lots of wires with clamps. It can control ignition and injectors without any help from car's electronics.

This device is used in service centers and by car hijackers :)

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