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Apple's Strategy Behind iTunes Mobile Phone

vishnu writes "CoolTechZone.com is running a story that analyzes Apple's strategy with ROKR. According to the author, the phone disappoints, but is this Apple's way of testing a potential market. Quote: "There was nothing wrong with the creative cells of the designers at Apple; ROKR is simply Jobs taking a calculated risk. He doesn't want a cell phone that doubles as an MP3 player to become too popular as that would cut straight into Apple's bread and butter product, the iPod. On the other hand, Jobs knows for a fact that in the future cell phones will play a huge role in portable digital music; therefore, he is hedging his bets. He wants to give people a taste of what is to come but at the same time, he wants to project phones as an extension but not a replacement of a portable music player. He's consequently hoping to discomfort Apple's competition with a cell phone that has nothing but iTunes going for it."

61 of 215 comments (clear)

  1. Mirror by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Apple's Strategy Behind ROKR

    Written by Varun Dubey
    Manufacturer: Apple
    Tuesday, 13 September 2005

    At a recently guarded press event, Apple launched its latest gadget and a product that has perhaps been long overdue: the Motorola ROKR cell phone. So why is Apple launching a Motto? It's simply because the phone has a mobile version of iTunes and can therefore play music. According to Steve Jobs, "it's more like a phone and a Shuffle rolled into one..."

    In terms of sheer expectations, I would have to say that the ROKR fell way beyond mine, and if events keep churning the way they are, ROKR will fall short of achieving even basic industry standards. The phone can store just about 100 odd tracks while the N series phones from Nokia will store roughly a thousand. Similarly, the Sony Walkman W800i also stores just as many songs, plus you can upgrade the memory to 2GB quite easily with a memory stick. There really is no other great feature about this phone apart from the dedicated iTunes button and the fact that it automatically pauses the track when a call comes in, which isn't particularly path breaking if you ask me.

    What is the Rokr about? Why would Apple waste its time, resources and brand value on something as particularly staid as this phone which, to top it all, is locked with Cingular as the carrier. I mean seriously, the product is simply not as exuberant as Apple products are supposed to be. So what happened? Why did Apple come out with a below standard product that fails in all expectations?

    The answer to that question is strategy. There was nothing wrong with the creative cells of the designers at Apple; ROKR is simply Jobs taking a calculated risk. He doesn't want a cell phone that doubles as an MP3 player to become too popular as that would cut straight into Apple's bread and butter product, the iPod. On the other hand, Jobs knows for a fact that in the future cell phones will play a huge role in portable digital music; therefore, he is hedging his bets. He wants to give people a taste of what is to come but at the same time, he wants to project phones as an extension but not a replacement of a portable music player. He's consequently hoping to discomfort Apple's competition with a cell phone that has nothing but iTunes going for it.

    Why would Jobs go to such great lengths at fumbling his rivals' plans to come out with an enthusiastic product of their own? That's because anything that affects the iPod sales hits Apple where it hurts the most (the cumulative sale of all iPods is estimated to be $4.8 billion).

    Of course, the music industry and the music playing cell phone will take off no matter what Jobs tries, but the possibilities for Apple are quite a few. If ROKR really takes off with the iTunes mobile edition, Apple can have some serious bargaining rights in terms of digital rights and content provision for other users, which shouldn't be too difficult especially since iTunes online store has quite a few songs including the entire song by song albums of Madonna, the only online collection of such kind in the world. ROKR's success will also help Apple push FairPlay (digital rights management software) to other phone manufacturers, which would be interesting to watch as well.

    The possibility that I like better, however, is that Apple could come out with its own "iPhone" (what else could they possible name it?) and beat Motorola and Nokia at their own game. Their partnership with Motorola for the ROKR could be for the simple reason that they want to understand what they are getting into before actually getting into it full time. As a personal request, if iPhone does happen, I wish they somehow include the click wheel on it so I can easily scroll through the address book.

    If you get right down to it, Apple need not even manufacture the phone itself, there are always third party manufacturers like BenQ that will take care of the manufacturing while Apple can go on with thinking up cleverer ideas to leave us catching our breaths every time a produ

  2. apple in cell market by millahtime · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Could this be a lead in to apple in the cell phone market? Or at least a partnership in that area?

    If they just licensed software that could greatly cut into their profit margins and their control over the style which is one of the things that makes them so popular.

    1. Re:apple in cell market by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Could this be a lead in to apple in the cell phone market? Or at least a partnership in that area?

      If they just licensed software that could greatly cut into their profit margins and their control over the style which is one of the things that makes them so popular.


      I'll say it again, the future is in some sort of hybrid between a PDA, GSM/GPRS telephone and an iPod like media player. These gizmos will probably come in several sizes like the Blackberry phones do to cater to the minnmalists as well as those who don't mind talking into a brick sized PDA. If Apple moves into the mobile phone market they will (judging from paste experience with the way they and the iPod caught the music industry with its pants down) really shake that market up which is not a bad thing since innovation in mobile phone design has stagnated in the last few years (with some notable exceptions though). Apple already has iTunes/iPod, they are really good at man/nachine interface design and they have the development muscle to write a decent mini OS for these devices and most of all they are not afraid of going into a new market and doing everything nobody else is thinks won't work.

      --
      Only to idiots, are orders laws.
      -- Henning von Tresckow
    2. Re:apple in cell market by bsgk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Probably a dumb idea, but we do have SonyEricsson. Maybe we are looking at a possible AppleMoto design venture.

      Gizmodo mentioned taping a Nano to your RAZR and having phone still smaller than the ROKR. That gave me this idea. Imagine a nice color screen and click wheel on the outside of the flip and then 4GB of memory on the inside of the keypad. Thicker, but I would buy in a heartbeat.

      Moto needs to work on their OS though.

  3. Convergence devices by Darth+Maul · · Score: 5, Interesting


    Maybe I'm in the minority, but I specifically do NOT want a device that does more than one thing. In my history of owning devices that do multiple things, it is always the case that they do each poorly. It is less than the sum of the parts.

    Also, sometimes I want to invest more money into one device (say, MP3 player), but don't care as much about another device (I actually don't use my mobile phone much at all, so I don't care). I want separate devices so I can upgrade independently and invest where I want more out of one device.

    So maybe the market is moving away from someone like me, and perhaps everyone actually wants one device that does everything, but I don't. To me it's no surprise that the reaction to the ROKR has been poor, because it's a poor phone coupled with a poor MP3 player (100 song limit?). How is that supposed to result in a great device?

    --
    --- witty signature
    1. Re:Convergence devices by pinkocommie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I currently have the RAZR admittedly not a great phone but I was comparing the the upper flip part of the fone with the nano and both are about the same thickness and cover the same area (RAZR's flip top is wider but shorter). My point? If they can fit something to the same profile (nano) as half the RAZR i'm sure they could integrate a decent phone in the same sized package? Imagine a flip with the top being like an ipod nano and the bottom being the numeric keypad? Sounds pretty cool to me.
      Also along the line of convergence most new subcompact digital camera's do a decent job of capturing 30 fps video (MJPEG / MPEG etc). Yes they dont compare with a video camera but the convenience alone is worth it. Give it another generation or two and I dont see most people (casual video makers) caring enough to buy two separate devices, this will eventually happen with cell phones as well.

    2. Re:Convergence devices by Darth+Maul · · Score: 2, Insightful

      " You should have your car radio repossed..."

      I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I can replace my car radio and upgrade it independently from my car. It's a great example of how it's a device that does one thing, and it can be upgraded at my leisure.

      --
      --- witty signature
    3. Re:Convergence devices by aussie_a · · Score: 5, Funny

      I specifically do NOT want a device that does more than one thing.

      Agreed. I have a typewriter for creating documents (OpenOffice), a console for playing video games (computer games), a telephone for talking to people (Skype), a video player (porn). This fandangled thing called a "computer" just does too many things, all of them poorly. Give me seperate devices any day.

    4. Re:Convergence devices by Ruphuz · · Score: 2, Interesting
      ... Try getting your GF...

      Pardon, sir. What is a GF?

      --
      My other post is a First.
    5. Re:Convergence devices by (A)*(B)!0_- · · Score: 2, Funny
      Most car radios sold on the market these days play music and tell you the time!

      MULTI-FUNCTION ALERT! MULTI-FUNCTION ALERT!

      ABANDON CAR RADIO!!!

    6. Re:Convergence devices by Rutulian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Point taken. But a computer has always been a multi-purpose device, whereas a phone or a stereo has always been a standalone appliance. I don't think mixing a phone and a stereo together is all that great, mostly because I would rather get something like the iRiver, which supports Ogg and video, and use it without depleting the battery on my phone which gets used up fast enough as it is.

      It is kind of like Mozilla Suite vs. Mozilla Firefox. Some people like the entire suite because they want to use the addressbook, calendar, email, composer, browser, chat, kitchen sink all at once in one giant application. I, and a lot of people however, prefer to use just the browser because it is excellent. I don't chat that much, so I don't want an irc client super-integrated into my web browser.

    7. Re:Convergence devices by slapout · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, I'm in the minority with you. I'd rather have a full fledged PDA (rather than a cell phone with an organizer) and a good cell phone. And then have them talk to each other. Let the PDA do it's thing, like run a web browser and then let the phone give me a high speed connection and let them talk via bluetooth.

      It's like the Unix philosophy. Each program does one thing and does it well. And it communicates well with other programs.

      --
      Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
    8. Re:Convergence devices by gonzoxl5 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I get what you are trying to say but I beleive you are approaching this from a flawed position.

      You seem to be assuming that convergence of differing devices will always result in a poor quality, flawed product, full of compromises.

      Whilst I agree that this is the case for early generation converged devices, I do not accept that this situation will persist, especially with the level of R&D that Sony Ericcson, Nokia and Motorola are putting into this area.

      Just look at where Nokia have come in the two short years since they released the 6600 (Symbian 60, MP3, SD Card, VGA Camera), now they have the N91 (3.5mm Jack, Symbian, 4GB HD, 2MP Camera).

      Converged devices are evolving past the point of a flawed second rate product and will start to reach converged excellence within the next 12-24 months.

      I can predict now that the N91 will be hugely successful, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Nokia or Sony offer a competing service to ITunes and I'd be even less surprised if we have a head on Battle between Apple/Motorola, Nokia/Partnerx and Sony for online music delivery via converged devices within a couple of Christmas's (ending ITunes dominance).

    9. Re:Convergence devices by NanoGator · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "In my history of owning devices that do multiple things, it is always the case that they do each poorly. It is less than the sum of the parts."

      Duh. Seriously, duh. The reason the extra stuff in the cell phone is interesting is that not everybody has all their fancy doodads at every given moment. A cell phone typically goes with people EVERYWHERE, but it's difficult to imagine anybody walking around with a cell phone, Game Boy, iPod, digital camera, PDA, and GPS.

      You're sitting here saying "It does everything poorly" and I'm sitting here thinking "It does it less poorly than nothing at all." I've got some pictures of my nephew acting silly when we went out to dinner. I have a nice digital camera, but I wouldn't have gotten those photos if my phone didn't have a camera. Why? Because I'm not lugging that thing around everywhere I go. Okay, they're 640 by 480 and a little blurry, they're still amusing photos.

      Of-freaking-course they're not going to be as good as a much more expensive dedicated device. It's like saying "I don't want a Game Boy because it's nowhere near a PS2."

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    10. Re:Convergence devices by LaughingCoder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think you are in the minority. Either that or you have alot of pockets and enjoy juggling multiple AC chargers in a feeble attempt to keep all your devices charged and ready should you want to use them. I for one CAN'T WAIT for a decent music phone/camera/PDA. So far the best I have seen is only available in the UK: http://shop.orange.co.uk/shop/show/handset/orange_ spv_c550/detail/pay_monthly Dedicated music player buttons! And, they even offer a full-track over-the-air download service. When will stuff like this hit the States? The best one available in the US that I've seen is the AudioVox 5600, which has been around for awhile. Alas the desktop side of the equation in weak, relying on off-the-shelf Microsoft applications, rather than well-designed, easy to use, applications targeted to the mobile phone/music player user.

      --
      The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
    11. Re:Convergence devices by jcern · · Score: 2, Interesting

      One of the greatest things I've found when looking at mobile phones is bluetooth. I was actually at Cingular the other day looking at the iPod phone and, while it doesn't let me do much of anything with anything, it seemed like a decent idea. So, now the original post got me thinking about what could be done with seperate devices to help transition into the mobile market - maybe in addition to the iPod phone.

      Why don't they have a bluetooth enabled iPod? This way it could pair with your mobile phone and download songs that way. Seems like it would open the market to a lot more people. I almost always have my ipod and my phone with me. Sometimes, when I really want to hear a song - it would be nice to be able to just pull it down.

      I'm no expert on bluetooth, so this may not even be technically feasible. But it seems that it would also create the option for the iPod to pair with the car's radio, creating a way to use your iPod without having to remember to have the requisite adapters in the car (or anywhere else).

  4. Call Option by sg3000 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Sometimes this type of strategy is called a "call option". This means that by working with Motorola to build an "iTunes phone," Apple can test the market for MP3-enabled phones. It's probably cheaper to work with Motorola in this way than it is to do the primary market research. The ROKR, even if it does not sell well, helps Apple and Motorola be better positioned in the face of the latest telecom trend (or fad) of converged devices, specifically music-enabled phones.

    If the phone is a success, Apple has a few options. First, they can build their own phone and build it with their award winning industry design sense. Second, they could work with Cingular or another wireless service provider to become a mobile virtual network operator (MVNO), similar to what Virgin Mobile (in the U.S.) and Boost Mobile do, and where Disney and ESPN are starting. Combining their ITMS with an MVNO presence would help them differentiate.

    Motorola gets something out of it, too. The RAZR was an obvious choice to do this with, but I suspect the costs of that phone are pretty high, and Motorola does not want to make them higher. However, by putting this function on the uglier ROKR, the RAZR stands out better. The ROKR gets them in the store, but they walk out with a RAZR.

    With the ROKR, what Motorola and Apple have done is changed the argument for convergence. Before the ROKR, a consumer might buy an MP3-enabled phone or a regular phone. The former had the potential to hurt iPod and ITMS sales, but the latter does not. If the consumer chose the music phone, Apple's role would be limited because the phone wouldn't be able to play ITMS purchases, and Motorola would be forced to compete with Nokia, Sony Ericsson, etc. So Apple and Motorola benefit from pushing the consumer towards a regular phone and away from convergence.

    However, with the ROKR, the consumer will choose between the ROKR and the other music phones, if that's what they care about. And they may swing towards the ROKR because of Apple's >80% market share for online music (chances are they have bought a song from ITMS). But if they're concerned more with esthetics, standing in the store, they may look six inches over and eschew the ROKR in favor of the RAZR, and then go buy the iPod nano, which in terms of size are together smaller than most other phones.

    So the ROKR actually weakens the position of other phone makers (who are pitching music phones) and pushes customers towards the RAZR and iPod nano.

    --
    Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
    1. Re:Call Option by sg3000 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      > So the ROKR actually weakens the position of other phone
      > makers (who are pitching music phones) and pushes customers
      > towards the RAZR and iPod nano.

      I just thought of another way the ROKR hurts the other mobile phone makers building music phones. Now they'll have to find a way to further differentiate from the ROKR since the iTunes integration provides a big advantage. They'll have three options:

      1. Make their phones better looking-- which increases their costs, and right now the RAZR wins this battle

      2. Reduce their price-- and either hurt their margins, or find a way to cut production costs

      3. Increase their capacity above the 100 song limitation, which will increase the costs and thus the price) -- but this still doesn't mitigate the fact that the phone won't play songs from ITMS

      So Motorola gets another advantage; they have forced the other phone makers to market around the ROKR yard stick.

      --
      Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
  5. Two devices, one for music, one for phone service by ReformedExCon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It is a dumb idea to bet against the convergence of personal digital accessories. If Steve Jobs really thinks people are going to buy two devices when one will do, his calculated risk is not calculating enough.

    There are a lot of people who say they only want a phone that only does phone stuff. But those phones are losing ground to cell phones that are as powerful as the first Apollo onboard computers. You simply won't be able to buy a cell phone that doesn't come with some level of multimedia support. The top of the line phones will feature full-blown MP3 players (duly locked down with DRM) whether or not Apple wants to jump into the fray. The bottom of the line phones will not be as feature rich, but they will have cameras and good screens, not to mention moderately performing audio.

    So you can carry one device that plays your music well, acts as a cellular phone, and can be your email address away from the computer. Or you can have two devices clipped to your belt.

    Minimalism in form with maximalism in functionality is the new black. Sleek and cool. Not clunky and lame.

    --
    Jesus saved me from my past. He can save you as well.
  6. How logical! by Willeh · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Testing "the waters" by releasing a shitty offering hobbled with arbitrary limits (100 songs) and lackluster presentation and aesthetics.

    While i do agree with Apple's statement that a too good iTunes Phone would cut into their iPod profits, why even bother at all? The cell market is very hard to get into, and the way Apple is going it could churn out small incremental updates for a long time. It's best to bet on a videoPod than on yet more convergence of devices.

    Ah well, i better find my roll of doublesided tape, i got work to do.

    --
    Will wank off Linus Torvalds for fame.
    1. Re:How logical! by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Testing "the waters" by releasing a shitty offering hobbled with arbitrary limits (100 songs) and lackluster presentation and aesthetics.

      I love it. Apple involves themselves with a total clunker and people are trying to spin this as genius.

      People, even Apple screws up on occasion. They better come out with a good phone within 6 months, or this is an unmitigated failure.

  7. Re:Isn't it obvious? by peragrin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The Rokr is a 2 year old phone, that has been software updated with AAC abilities. That's it.

    No This s more about Apple's push on the Phone carriers to allow more than themselves to sell services for phones.

    Look at the sudden resistance Apple is getting from Sony and Warner in Japan and Australia. The RIAA members got caught off guard when Itunes Music store actually started to make a profit. Napster, and the others were nothing but a joke. Itunes rolled in and cleaned everybody's clock. over $600 million in sales in 2 years.

    --
    i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
  8. Re:Isn't it obvious? by Brento · · Score: 5, Funny

    product that nobody really wants apart from the usual Mac-zealot contingent who'd buy a turd if it droped from Steve Jobs' ass.

    This phone is from Ed Zander's ass, not Steve's, because it's Motorola shit. Apple shit is identifiable by the white and pastel colors, and it has smooth, curved edges to make it easier on the body. Motorola shit has techy-looking colors and rough, almost serrated edges, because it's sold by phone companies, and they want you to feel it when they screw you in the pooper.

    --
    What's your damage, Heather?
  9. I work in the Mobile Industry by shareme · · Score: 4, Interesting

    and i CAN only say that the author needs his head examined.. The phone was in fact politically hampered by both Mobile Operators who did not want to give up their own ring tone revenue and etc.. remember folks ring tones sell at $25 per tune not $.99 per tune.. Apple's Mistake was relying on Moto to swing the Moblie Operators their way.. A better tact for Apple would be to give acut of the $.99 to Mobile Operators and highlight the importance of selling a large amount of handsets for their Mobile service.. Even Russ B has stated as much in his blog and his yahoo blog..

    --
    Fred Grott(aka shareme) http://mobilebytes.wordpress.com
  10. It's a Motorola product. by jcr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Apple's strategy here is to sell a program and a service to Motorola. It's not Apple's hardware, guys. The ROKR is not an Apple product.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    1. Re:It's a Motorola product. by pubjames · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think you get it. The point is that Apple is testing the waters, without risking developing the "iPhone" and then finding it flops.

      You can be pretty sure that sitting on a designers desk somewhere at Apple is a pretty little white iPhone which will be on the market within a year or so. They are just being cautious and testing the market.

    2. Re:It's a Motorola product. by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, yes and no.

      You're right in that Apple is "testing the waters" but I think it's for a different reason. Basically, Apple is testing out including iTunes in non-Apple devices and seeing how much money they might make.

      Consider Apple's history--when have they ever jumped into a "mature" market? I can't think of one. Apple sold Laser printers early, Apple sold PDAs early, Apple sold digital cameras early, and Apple sold MP3 players early.

      So why would Apple jump into the phone market? First, there's lots and lots of competition already out there. So why would Apple want to jump in and try to compete with Motorola, Siemens, Nokia, Sony, and NEC?

      Jobs once said that Apple enters markets where they can do something spectacular that no one else is doing. What value would Apple add to the consumer experience of having a cellular phone? That it would look cooler?

      Sorry. I don't see Apple making an iPhone. Ultimately, there's no way that they would be able to differentiate it in the vast marketplace for phones.

  11. Doesn't seem like much of a strategy by Banishedwun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Hasn't the market shown time and again that a hobbled version of a product will quickly be beaten out by an unhobbled one? In the short term this might keep iPod sales up, but in the long run somebody else will offer a full function cell with mp3 capability (and yes, I avoided the typical, "In the long run.... We're all dead" statement).
    I've never been a huge fan of Apple but I have to admit that the iPod has been a great success for them. Sad to see them repeating the history of their computers: establish a great product and cult following and then piss off your customers by limiting their growth options. They took enough body shots from Microsoft over the last 15 years that I would have hoped they learned their lesson.

  12. I can see it now... by ZP-Blight · · Score: 5, Funny

    Apple making the iPhone and instead of having numbers, they'd design it all cool so you'd use the mouse wheel as a rotary dial and you'll get hi-def surround "grrrringg" sound chirping out of the phone's spaker as you do it.

    --
    Zoom Player Lead Dev.
  13. Yeah, right by daniil · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Face it, Apple fanbois: Jobs just made a mistake on this one. It was a bad design, not a gadget cleverly designed as a bad one.

    Even the brightest minds make mistakes. It's about time to suck it up, instead of touting it as a "clever tactical move".

    --
    Man is a slave because freedom is difficult, whereas slavery is easy.
    1. Re:Yeah, right by wootest · · Score: 3, Informative

      I fully agree and I don't know what all the fuzz is about - it's comparable to Nokia touting its phones as Opera phones. With the addition of iTunes to this phone, it can do exactly one thing that other phones can't - play FairPlay-DRMed songs. Compared to the rest of the phone, it's not exactly tipping the scale.

      Did anyone see the part of the Special Event where Steve "demos" the phone? They're so embarassed about it that they don't have a camera to show the phone interface. When he gets interrupted by a phone call, he can't even press the right button to resume the music. It's a bad move. Steve probably would hate this phone if it hadn't got iTunes on it in the first place.

      Motorola's interfaces are among the worst in the industry. Their computer connection software is a riddle and a half. The phone is clumsy. The 100-song limit, USB 1.1 connection and lack of Bluetooth syncing are all braindead, and three companies all trying to limit the functionality to not hurt other aspects of their business compromised what little was already good with this phone to suckiness. There's no fucking way in hell that this is going to sell well unless you're a complete must-be-Apple/Motorola/Cingular consumer fascist. This is the worst move Apple has made since the mid-90s era.

      Someone (I can't remember who) once said (long before this) that this is the scenario: Steve Jobs has a cell phone which he uses daily, and which he hates, and which he one day is going to do something about. After watching that part of the event, I think for the first time in my life that the iPhone might actually happen someday, because if Apple's trying to push iTunes onto even an average phone, this just won't do.

  14. Re:Isn't it obvious? by Zebra_X · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No,

    There is no money lost. The hardware is not apple's but the software is. Where is the downside on that?

    The fact that it's ugly, small, and brain dead is motorola's fault. It's not an Apple product. I suspect that Apple has a much different draft of what that device is supposed to look like, and we will see it in a bit. They don't have a lot of exerience engineering mobile communications hardware. I'm pretty sure that a phone done correctly will be worth it's while. Make no mistake - the iPod phone will be a product of Apple's, which is why Motorola was left out to dry.

  15. What is so great about this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have a Nokia S60 Symbian phone with a 1Gb memory card and a mp3 player installed. It plays all the music i want without any DRM and/or artifical limitations and is a very good phone to boot. Can someone explain to me why this new ROKR phone is supposedly the next-great-thing-for-mankind when it does not offer anything new or better?

  16. Enterprizing People... by aBlooMoon · · Score: 2, Funny

    Over at Gearlive.com they have a photo of someone duct-taping a RAZR and iPod Nano together overcoming the ROKR's 100 song limitation and still ending up with a smaller overall package than the ROKR.

    Yes, it's a gag, but still relative proof that Apple is placing the 100 song limitation on Motorola for competition reasons.

    --
    http://kansieo.com
  17. I still don't get it! by HaydnH · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Perhaps someone could enlighten me but I'm still unsure why the ROKR is meant to be new and inovative.

    I use a Treo as a phone and have 2GB of space on my SD card (less a few MB of applications) for MP3's or OGG's, WMA's etc... and of course being a Treo I can do a hell of a lot more than just phone and music. There are also many phones that have memory card and MP3 support, so what's new? The fact that you can use iTunes? YAY - big whoop!

    Surely I must be missing something here but the number of already existing phones that can play MP3's with up to 2GB storage that function better than the ROKR is outstanding! Perhaps if they'd included their 'iWheel' navigation (or whatever they call it) and gone for ease of use then perhaps my opinion might be different.

    Haydn.

    --
    Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams
  18. Re:Isn't it obvious? by notthe9 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Y'know, the phone is probably just Apple's way of getting in a sucker punch on Motorola. "Sure, we know style, trust us... you want the phone to be like..."

    There was some bad blood a while back, was there not?

    It's the most likely explanation I can come up with, at least. Apple tends to be better in what they put out, and Moto has impressed me in a number of their phone products in the somewhat recent past.

  19. Giving people too much credit... by BigTimOBrien · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Reading too far into what is simply a bad product design. It's like people can't come to term with the fact that Apple was involved with a product that suffers from usability issues.

    --
    ------ Tim O'Brien
  20. They beat ya to it. by caveat · · Score: 2, Informative

    The nano's already going there - it has a lock feature; to unlock it you spin the click wheel and the screen shows a little combination lock. Absolute fluff, so totally Apple...I seriously wouldn't be surprised if the iPhone did just what you say.

    --

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
    1. Re:They beat ya to it. by MustardMan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Absolute fluff? Don't you mean intuitive and simple? The whole POINT of the ipod interface is that it doesn't have a lot of buttons and it's very natural to use. Would you prefer maybe clicking up or down on the wheel a bunch of times to select each number in a combination? A combination lock is the simplest and most logical way to use the interface of the ipod to implement a locking mechanism.

  21. Re:Two devices, one for music, one for phone servi by sg3000 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    > If Steve Jobs really thinks people are going to buy two devices
    > when one will do, his calculated risk is not calculating enough.

    This is conventional wisdom today (particularly in the tech industry), but I don't think it's necessarily true.

    The problem is that a converged device assumes that the technology advances slow down enough that you can release the converged product on a cycle that corresponds to the lowest common denominator of the two technologies. Imagine an example where the - means development and + means product release. And we have two products A and B.
    A : ---+---+---+---+
    B : --+--+--+--+--+-
    Even if it requires no R&D to integrate the two, you can see that the converged device AB has a few options:
    AB: ---+-------+----
    The product releases slow down until the two technologies can be released together. Or you can do more rapid product releases, but the technology will in the converged technology will lag that of the stand-alone device for certain product releases.

    If the two technologies are pretty mature, then that may not be a problem, but with rapid advances, the converged device just doesn't make sense.

    We've seen similar things today. Many people have been eschewing general purpose PDAs in favor of more specialized devices, such as Blackberrys or iPods, because of the technological advances and the fact that a special purpose device will have a better user interface than a multiple purpose device.

    As for carrying two devices on one's belt, when you get into the iPod nano and the RAZR phone, the devices are so small that many people won't care anyway.
    --
    Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
  22. Yada-yada-yada.... by Corson · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The reason why I wound't buy the RORK...ROKK...ROKR... whatever thingy is, it's a phone with some iPod in it while what I want is an iPod with a phone in it.

  23. Re:water testing for consumers' benefit, or Apple' by DingerX · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Yeah. Let's cut the crap about intentionality, "what Steve wanted", and look at what he got:

    A) A device that has all the drawbacks of cellphone provider monopolies
    B) It also gives the user the battery life of an "always on" phone
    C) The need to connect to a PC for its music player functionality.
    D) The need to use the vendor's network for all its cellphone functionality.
    E) iTunes software, without its most intuitive interface element.
    F) a crippling 100-song limit so the thing does not compete with iPods stuff.

    This, folks, isn't some diabolical marketing strategy; it's a real turd cooked up through design-by-committee. Forget the convergence arguments for a second -- they don't apply. This is as convergent as one loud family and one filthy family living in a duplex: the filthy ones don't get any sleep, and the loud ones get sick from the roaches.

    I love how people stretch for marketing. The ROKR's massive marketing will drive people to better products like the RAZR and the iPod nano? Yeah? Or how about a Nokia and a Creative Zen? People are going to buy the ROKR, warts and all, for access to Apple's exclusive catalog? Or maybe, now that Apple's in bed with Motorola for at least a few months, some other online music provider will take the ROKR's failure as an opportunity to team up with a successful cellphone maker, and use the leverage to increase their own catalog and market?

    Give me a break. I'm with y'all when you need to look for an intelligent explanation for decisions, but every corporation makes some dumb decisions; and, no offense, but Apple's made some really dumb ones in the past. Some folks there are like the kid whom researchers put in a white room filled with horseshit. He jumps in, and starts digging with hands, feet, teeth, everything, and digs furiously. After about an hour, the scientists ask him why he's digging.
    "There's gotta be a horse in here somewhere!"
    Keep looking.

  24. Itunes on another OS by stanley+matthews · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Because of ROKR, Apple now has Itunes running on java, which would be the third OS for their application. I think that is a pretty good risk to take.

    1. Re:Itunes on another OS by cakesy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ITunes doesn't run on java on the ROKR. j2me can't access external files, and I doubt it would be fast enough to decode aac files.

  25. Old news... by Brain_Recall · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I've been using my cell phone (Mororola E815, care of Verizon) for awhile now as a MP3 player (a stop-gap solution until I can get a nano).

    I had to hack the phone to get OBEX working across Bluetooth and file transfers between the phone memory and the TransT Flash card (currently only 128MB, damn those things are small) because Verizon decided those functions weren't needed. I also built had to build a headphone adapter to go up from the 1/32" connector on the phone up to a standard 1/8" jack. It looks ugly, but it works.

    I even use iTunes to fill my phone. I use a smart playlist that limits the selection to about 115MB (to account for file size varaiances). I get rid of the songs I want, add the ones I like, and iTunes keeps the file size right. Then, I can select all the songs, and do a direct drag-and-drop onto the OBEX exchange window, and things copy over. Unfortunetly, there are some driver issues, as it will cough on certain file names and sometimes just stop transfering for no reason.

    Simply, this gives me a MP3 player when I wouldn't have one. Of course, I didn't buy a cell phone just so it could be a MP3 player, but it gives me one on the cheap side.

  26. Re:Isn't it obvious? by Cyn · · Score: 3, Funny

    The phone is exactly like an existing Motorola model, except they changed a single center button into two - the original function, and the 'music' button.

    Apple just licensed their shit and gave some tips on wiping.

    --
    cyn, free software and *nix operating systems enthusiast.
  27. My best guess is that Apple is waiting for WI-FI by brokeninside · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Once WI-FI or some other wireless networking technology, I bet Apple will release an iPod that does VOIP. But Apple can't do that now. The only way to get into the mobile phone market right now is to partner with providers who aren't willing to launch the sorts of services that would make an Apple phone an Apple phone. Consequently, Apple is now trying to merely put its name out in the mobile arena. It is essentially creating iTunes for providers to integrate into their non-Apple phones. This avoids stepping on the providers toes. But this is also a temporary step. Ubiquitous wireless will eliminate the need of Apple to partner with the mobile providers.

  28. Re:Two devices, one for music, one for phone servi by ReformedExCon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Apparently we have fallen on the bad side of moderation here. Sorry to drag you down.

    I appreciate your argument, but I just don't see that as the way things are going. Phones are becoming the central device in personal accessories. They contain the key technology that has driven almost all new tech in the last 5 years: communication. Now, you are able to talk to your friends anywhere you go, send them an email from wherever you are, or take a picture and let them see what you are seeing (albeit in VGA and through a cheap lens). These are things people didn't even realize they wanted to do until the technology became available. If operators lower the cost of packets, such services will become even more popular.

    People already want to take their music with them. They have since Sony brought out the Walkman years ago. The features necessary to playback music are pretty light, comparatively. It's a matter of increasing the audio out abilities of the phone (I'm simplifying, of course), and you've got yourself a media-playing phone. These already exist in some markets, and I don't see the momentum stopping.

    The primary thing holding back this particular convergence is lack of storage, but as we saw earlier Flash memory is becoming more abundant than ever. Removable memory is also getting very large, so carrying around your media isn't going to be a hassle.

    I also see phones becoming cheaper (price per feature) and the cost of a cellphone/media player is going to be a better value than two separate devices. It's going to come, and I don't think that staggered technology improvements are going to hold back the convergence products.

    --
    Jesus saved me from my past. He can save you as well.
  29. Faulty Logic by jhsewell · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The article states "...Their partnership with Motorola for the ROKR could be for the simple reason that they want to understand what they are getting into before actually getting into it full time..."

    I fail to see how the ROKR will help Apple understand "what they are getting". Apple would never ship anything remotely similar to the ROKR. I can imagine Steve Jobs being disgusted with the ROKR and every other cell phone on the market right now (with the exception, perhaps, of the SideKick).

    By all accounts, the ROKR is a mediocre product at best, with a typical cellphone user interace. It will most likely fail in the market.

    Here's another theory: Steve Jobs holds grudges. There has been a tension between Motorola and Jobs ever since he killed the clones. Motorola was left with millions of dollars of unsold inventory and probably as much R&D costs. Shortly after Jobs killed the clones, Motorola got rid of all Macs from their corporate campus in Austin and began switching their PPC strategy from Desktop/Server towards imbedded. So now Jobs is sucker punching Motorola by convincing them to spend millions (again) on a product that's bound to fail. I wouldn't be surprised to see Jobs yank the iTunes rights away from Motorola in a few months.

    -J

  30. Integration as modularity? by Iluvatar · · Score: 2, Insightful
    There is this thing called Bluetooth out there that is supposed to be a replacement for cables. Even my computer is not a single big box: it has a separate main unit, screen, keyboard, mouse and speakers. In order to put them together, all I have to do is plug them in. This is because they all obey a common standard.

    So why not the same with portable devices? Let me put it this way: Integration should *not* be about building a single box that has everything, physically. It should be about plug-and-play interoperability and open standards.

    So how about this: Instead of a big, bulky cellphone + PDA + MP3 player + camera + .... + ... I'd like to have:

    • An iPod that can serve as a Bluetooth headset. It has a screen and a rudimentary keyboard (sufficient for most things, such as calling someone from my addressbook or answering a call), and audio I/O.
    • A Bluetooth headset. Much smaller than an iPod, but provides the basic functionality I need to receive and make calls.
    • A PDA with Bluetooth. It doesn't have a modem or access to a wireless network, but has everything else.
    • A slim digital camera, which can take photos and videos well. However, if I want to send an MMS (the main "excuse" for VGA cameras in cellphones), it would be nice if I could just send it via Bluetooth to my cellphone.
    Wait! I actually have all these things already. So why can't my cellphone be a screen-less, keyboard-less, matchbox-sized device (basically, battery + Bluetooth tranceiver + GSM tranceiver) that I can drop in my backpocket when I want connectivity with the outside world?

    Actually, the thing that is missing is interoperability! I can already have this modularity, but getting one device to see the other is a pain. Doing things like getting one device (say the iPod) to see the addressbook in another device (say, the small tranceiver box) is next to impossible.

    An article in the Economist recently pointed out that integration for non-portable home entertainment devices is currently a failure because getting things to talk to each other is too complicated: typical consumers do not buy "service offerings" (e.g., system for distributed video, with terminals and servers) but rather buy individual devices on impulse, which they can just plug in and forget. That is why DVD players, for example, caught on: you buy the thing, plug it in and it works.

    What we need is the same for digital devices, whether portable or not. The right way to integration is not to build a single box that is a TV + DVD player + computer + DVR + telephone + game console + web terminal + ... + ... (doesn't that sound ridiculous?). What is needed are open protocols that will make the interoperability that is possible with a TV, VCR and DVD also possible on a grander scale. Both for portable and non-portable devices. Just my 2c...

  31. The UNIX philosophy for mobile devices by mrchaotica · · Score: 5, Insightful
    It's like the Unix philosophy. Each program does one thing and does it well. And it communicates well with other programs.
    That's the kicker, isn't it? The trouble is that no mobile device just does one thing, and no mobile device communicates well with others.

    Part of the problem is that hardware designers are approaching the problem from the wrong angle. Instead of thinking in terms of "PDA", "phone", "music player", etc. they should think more abstractly, in terms of "I/O", "communications", "storage" etc.

    I've got a PDA, cellphone, and iPod. Each of them has a screen and CPU. Why is that? It's completely wasteful! I don't want a PDA with its own processor and memory and whatnot; I just want a screen that I can write on, like an electronic notepad. I don't want a phone; I just want a tranceiver. I don't want an iPod; I just want a storage device.

    Wouldn't it be much better for the (pda-like) screen device to be an interface for the "phone" and "iPod"? Wouldn't it be nice for the cellular tranceiver to be only the size of a USB key and get awesome battery life, because it wouldn't need that bulky and power-hungery screen and keyboard? Wouldn't it be nice to have that 20GB of space available to the general-purpose computer instead of just for music?
    --

    "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    1. Re:The UNIX philosophy for mobile devices by jbert · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Exactly. This seems so obvious to me too. You need:

      - a display
      - an input device (at least voice, probably written too assuming voice recognition doesn't do away with it)
      - some processing power
      - some storage
      - networking (gsm, wifi, etc)

      The only (technical) reasons to bundle more than one of these in the same package is to reduce overall form factor or to provide a wired pathway for bandwidth/security reasons.

      We've got bluetooth headsets, we're able to plug usb stick/flash storage into things. What would it take to have a wirelessly-accessible hard drive in your backpack/jacket pocket?

      And of course, the real payoff here is that you have your portable versions of all of these things, but you should be able to walk up to and use and "public" devices (e.g. large screen, full size keyboard) and have them automagically work with your programs, your data, your network, etc.

      Kind of like the PC architecture have standard components and busses (ISA/PCI/etc). Manafacturers can manafacture to the interconnection spec, reducing the O(n^2) interoperability problem to O(n).

      So...what would it take? A "bodybus" specification? PCI-over-wifi?

    2. Re:The UNIX philosophy for mobile devices by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Duh. Isn't it obvious that what I want is a modular device? I don't want one (relatively) huge, heavy, and chunky device; I want several slim light ones. I also don't want to have to carry all of it with me all of the time, and I want to be able to mix-and-match pieces.

      For example, one day I might need to take notes, so I take the 4x6" tablet interface. The next day I don't, so I leave that at home and use my wristwatch-like display instead. The day after that I have a meeting at a R&D lab which won't let me bring in storage devices, so I leave the hard drive module in the car (but I still have the bluetooth headset and tranceiver, so I can still get phone calls). The fourth day I decide I want to upgrade to the next-gen wireless standard, so I replace only the tranceiver.

      Can't do that with a Treo, now can you?

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    3. Re:The UNIX philosophy for mobile devices by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Interesting
      You need:

      - a display
      - an input device (at least voice, probably written too assuming voice recognition doesn't do away with it)
      - some processing power
      - some storage
      - networking (gsm, wifi, etc)
      I would abstract that a little more and say that you need some combination of audio, visual, and haptic (touch-based) I/O. For example, maybe you don't need a display, but only a speaker, or maybe even something that would vibrate/poke you/heat up/whatever. Or maybe you want visual input (i.e. a camera) for augmented reality or recording applications.

      Also, I would add GPS to the networking bit -- it shouldn't involve enough extra hardware to make it its own module.
      So...what would it take? A "bodybus" specification? PCI-over-wifi?
      Wireless USB.
      And of course, the real payoff here is that you have your portable versions of all of these things, but you should be able to walk up to and use and "public" devices (e.g. large screen, full size keyboard) and have them automagically work with your programs, your data, your network, etc.
      That's a little harder, because you've got issues like security and getting it to pair with your particular system and such. Either you'll have to type in your IPv6 address/domain/whatever, select yourself from a list of "near" devices, or use some sort of token (e.g. swiping a magnetic strip card, plugging yourself in [non-wireless], etc.).
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    4. Re:The UNIX philosophy for mobile devices by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, I'm sorry you have no reading comprehension skills! It was obvious that I was talking about modular devices because that's what the post I was originally replying to was talking about. What the heck else could "UNIX philosophy for mobile devices" be referring to, anyhow?

      Anyway, perhaps "might" was a poor choice of words. How about this: I could take the 4x6" display on days when I would use it, and leave it at home on days when I would not. In my case, that would mean taking it to school, but not to my girlfriend's house, for example. It's pretty damn easy to predict when I'd need it!

      Moreover, with the Treo I'd be stuck with a shitty, small screen when I needed a big one and when I didn't need one at all. The Treo is suboptimal in all situations, whereas my idea is optimal in all except the case where you can't decide whether you need a display or not.

      And guess what! We're talking about modular devices, so you aren't limited to having a medium-size display or nothing. You could also choose to use a 2x3" PDA-size notepad device, or a head-mounted display and a Twiddler, or a full-legal-paper-size tablet.

      Speaking of choice, you could also pick from a variety of storage device modules, just like iPods: big high-capacity hard-drive-based models, as well as smaller flash-based models. No matter which you pick, they'd still work with your display and your tranceiver and whatnot just the same.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    5. Re:The UNIX philosophy for mobile devices by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Wait a second. I suddenly realize that you seem to think I'm talking about some kind of pluggable single device, like a laptop with drive bays or something. That's not what I'm talking about at all! I mean "modular" in the sense that the modules are completely separate devices. They're only connected by a communications protocol, and can be put in different locations around the body.

      It's not "all with the same pocket-sized device;" it's quite the opposite! It's all with separate pocket-sized modules that are designed to work together.

      My concept supports both a large hard drive and a small flash drive in the same way that you could put a 20GB Archos or whatever in one pocket, and a 32MB Rio in another.

      I suppose that the closest thing to what I'm talking about is actually this, although it's way too clunky and Borg-like (then again, it's a research prototype, so that's understandable). It's not quite comparable, but the general idea that you should take away is the concept of the different circuit boards being distributed in different locations.

      By the way, before you claim that that's not what I said before, recall that the original post was talking about getting his PDA (device 1) to talk to his cellphone (device 2). Multiple devices! Apparently you didn't understand what I was talking about, and considering that everyone else in the thread did, I think that says something about exactly which of us is truly the idiot!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  32. another good article by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I thought this article was even more insightful, and I like the options for Apple's phone future that it discusses:

    http://www.applematters.com/index.php/section/comm ents/538/

  33. Apple & Moto are ripping you off...OLD PHONE by orion007 · · Score: 2

    This supossedly new phone is auctually 2 years old. It was called the E398. Apple wrote a java iTunes program and slapped it on this phone and they renamed it ROKR. You can buy an E398 from myworldphone.com for $179 and load the iTunes firmware to it to have a ROKR phone. I can't believe people are so dumb....

  34. Another Occam variant: don't attribute to subtlety by dpbsmith · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...what can be explained by stupidity.

    The ROKR is stupid, that's all. I once worked in a Fortune 500 company which did stupid stuff. Lots of it. All the time.

    From the outside, journalists and fans were simply unwilling to accept the simple explanation and kept concocting explanations of how these moves could be the result of some brilliant strategy.

    And, of course, inside the company, stuff would happen and people would say, Wow! That was boneheaded... what are we going to say?

    And wordsmiths and spin doctors would get busy with plausible-sounding explanations that "studies show that our business customers want" some dumb thing that nobody in their right mind would ever want and nobody ever bought.

    The ROKR is just stupid, that's all. Like IBM's 4" floppy or Microsoft Bob or New Coke. Someone had a bad idea and internal politicians, for whatever reasons, deadline pressure or ego or what, mutually convinced themselves that it was a good idea.

    Stupid, stupid, stupid.

    Well, bye for now. I'm off to Velcro my iPod Mini to the back of my cell phone.

  35. Wrong market by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Judging by the number of times people on /. said something wouldn't work or would not find a market and the opposite happening, shows that trying to analyse the market based on your own personal preferences just does not work. Remember what was said about the iPod shuffle and the iPod mini?

    Cell phone companies are using MP3 phones as the next feature to get people to upgrade. In Asia people love gadget phones. North America is really a back water, and even in the stone age, when it comes to mobile phones - we don't have the selection and we don't even necessarily have the latest phones. I am not sure whether that is due to the customers or because of the fragmented networks (most countries are 100% GSM).

    At the same time Motorola still hasn't quite got it when it comes to design. The still act like an electronics company, with little to no design sense. It is probably for reasons such as these why Ericsson teamed up with Sony.

    --
    Jumpstart the tartan drive.
  36. Look what happened to the PDA by JohnnyLocust · · Score: 2, Insightful

    he wants to project phones as an extension but not a replacement of a portable music player

    That just doesn't seem like a good plan. 5 years ago, people were juggling 2 seperate devices (a pda and cell phone), but the market share of non-cellphone type PDAs are dwindleing rather quickly.

    With battery life, LCD screen density, and processor power increasing, technology currently allows for all 3 devices to happily occupy the same small space for a lower overall price.