Pay vs. Happiness

itri writes "A co-worker recently sent me and article about job burnout. Although it's a year old, the points seemed to resonate well with me. The nutshell of the article is that job burnout is caused by lack of the sense of accomplishment, working for a narcissistic boss, and a conflict between the employers and employee's values. Is it really better working for a company that cares about your satisfaction? Are there any companies like that and (more importantly) are they hiring?"

Comments

Its a matter of perspective

[BWJones]

With respect to your question, I have to say that you are really responsible for your own happiness and 90% of the employers out there do not really care about it. If they are smart, they would want happy employees, but as society moves more towards a service based economy with pre-produced products, there will be less craftsmanship around and less care for average employees as they can be quickly and easily replaced. So, your task is to find the niche that you can provide a well crafted product that those (like myself) will pay more for. I would say that if you are not happy, then change jobs or change careers or go back to school or start your own business.

With respect to pay vs. happiness, its a continuum is it not? There are those that would sell their souls to make the monthly payment on their Mercedes. I personally find that repugnant as it goes against my punk DIY ethos, but to each their own. Some folks simply find the job as a means for money to do other things with their life while others enjoy what they do for a living. I personally like to surround myself with people smarter than I am, have a passion for what they do, and treat them well to keep them around. That way, everybody is happy and things get done.

Incidently, I have three positions I am hiring for:

1) Board certified neurologist willing to relocate.

2) Board certified cardiologist willing to relocate.

You never know, but there are MDs that patrol Slashdot on occasion, so, why not?

3) Most importantly for this forum: A programmer. Can you program for OS X? Have Cocoa experience? Do you know IDL from RSI? If you answer yes to all three of the above questions, I have a job for you. I have my own stuff to keep me busy and happy so I won't be breathing down your neck. You even get to work from home or the lab, it's your choice, but if you are in the lab, you can have access to an incredibly extensive and diverse shared iTunes library and crank all you want. You can also have all the flexibility you want with the hours, I just want the code done within a reasonable amount of time. This is a contract position and you will find me most accommodating to work with.

If the meetings I have with the VCs next week go well, I might be hiring programmers with scientific robotics experience. Stay tuned to the Slashdot journal which gets updates from my blog.

Re:Its a matter of perspective

[sTalking_Goat]

My Mother. After Law School, three law degrees, 18 odd years as a lawyer and five as a Judge. She suddenly quit and went to culinary school to become a pastry chef.

Some people can be happy with just a big paycheck and extra letters after their name but mostly they are the minority.

Re:Its a matter of perspective

[The-Trav-Man]

Well, to start with as a factory worker you've got a lot going against you. Did you ever enjoy your job? Did you ever plan on enjoying it? I have friends who are factory workers, and they all knew exactly what they signed up for and it delivers to their requirements fully. One (out of seven) has experienced work burn out, he's actively searching for a job in a book store (been to 3 interviews in a week and has another one scheduled for tomorrow). The work dissatisfaction he experienced was that the place wasn't run in an organised manner, orders were packed on demand and there was no attempt at prediction which could have reduced worker stress during the busy hours substantially. He tried telling his boss and was told to get back to work. The article is not aimed at rich computer programmers, but it does strike a tone with a lot of smart people who are going after jobs that they enjoy doing. If you hate your job but aren't trying to find a better one then you don't really have a firm base to complain from. There's an obvious solultion, you know what it is, why aren't you following it up?

Re:Its a matter of perspective

[mnemonic_]

Too true. At the University of Michigan, 27% of students in the College of Engineering eventually leave to the liberal arts. This includes the get-rich types but also the fence-sitters ("major in chemistry or chemical engineering? biology or biomedical engineering?") and the guys who just can't hack it. Countless others want to leave, but can't afford to having taken already 70+ engineering credits. In engineering, every class is a weed out class.

Re:Its a matter of perspective

[iamlucky13]

Engineering for the money definitely isn't worth it, for two reasons. First, because studying engineering means spending 4+ years absolutely convinced that everyone around you is enjoying life way more than you. Sure I enjoyed the stuff I studied and I'd make the same major decision again if I had to, but it was frustrating nonetheless to watch the girls wander through the dorm at 10 pm on Fridays while writing lab reports. Second, average salaries are a statistic, and statistics have a nasty habit of screwing you over just when probability says they shouldn't. Somehow I managed to finish in the top quarter of my ME class with a math minor and landed a job on contract making $10000 less than the average, no benefits. That's intended to be a case-in-point, not a rant.

To build on your story, my freshmen physics class started the first semester with around 85 students in it, almost all engineering majors. We pretty quickly started joking about how this class must be designed to weed out the students who shouldn't be engineers, but we didn't think the administration was actually that clever. At the end of the semester, only about 70 students showed up for the final. By the end of the second semester, there were less than 60 left. In retrospect, I still don't think the administration was consciously trying to cull those not oriented towards nerdiness (I did enough extracurricular stuff interacting with them to learn that they genuinely are not that clever), but the nature of the material either killed their intellectual idealism or their grades, probably both, and the rolls of the business, communications, and other "I don't know what I want to do with life" majors started swelling.

Re:Its a matter of perspective

[prell]

That reminded me of something I read in a book I have. Apparently it's in another book I've looked at online!:

There's a favorite letter of mine from a Nobel Prize winner named George Wald, who is a biologist at Harvard. He wrote it in response to an argument about the starting of a Nobel laureate sperm bank. Some irate feminist wrote into the paper saying, "Sperm banks, they should have an egg bank. Why just sperm?" He says:

You're right, Pauline. It takes an egg as well as a sperm to start a Nobel laureate. Everyone of them has had a mother as well as a father. Say all you want of fathers, their contribution to conception Is really rather small.

Nobel laureates aside, there isn't much technically in the way of starting an egg bank. There are some problems but nothing so hard as involved in the other kinds of breeder reactors.

But think of a man so vain as to insist on getting a superior egg from an egg bank. Then he has to fertilize it. And when it's fertilized, where does he go with it, To his wife? "Here, dear," you can hear him saying, "I just got this superior egg from an egg bank and just fertilized it myself. Will you take care of it?" "I've got eggs of my own to worry about," she replies. "You know what you can do with your superior egg. Go rent a womb, and while you're at it, you better rent a room too."

You see, it just won't work. For the truth is that what one really needs is not Nobel laureates but love. How do you think one gets to be a Nobel laureate? Wanting love, that's how. Wanting it so bad one works all the time and ends up a Nobel laureate. It's a consolation prize.

What matters is love. Forget sperm banks and egg banks. Banks and love are incompatible. If you don't know that, you don't know bankers. So just practice loving. Love a Russian. You'd be surprised how easy it is, and how it will brighten up your morning. Love whales, Iranians, Vietnamese, not just here but everywhere. When you've gotten really good you can even try loving some of our politicians."

from: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/jk8p/jk8p_01.htm

Re:Its a matter of perspective

[Wigglywonka]

It's time to challenge your assumptions. A large income can be spent on things besides the frivolities you mentioned. Healthcare has become increasingly expensive, and, unless you and your family don't mind suffering from untreated illnesses, good health insurance, and the money to supplement it if your plan doesn't think you need something, are going to require some serious money. Then there's education. Perhaps one of the most important things a parent can provide for their child is a good, solid education. Aside from increasing their earning power, it will allow them to get more interesting, rewarding work as well as provide opportunities for them to meet interesting people. These days even a good State School could cost 15k or 20k, per child, in tuition alone. When you throw in living costs, books, etc. you're talking about serious money. Graduate or Professional school? Throw on another 75 to 120k depending on what your kids want to do. Money is also useful when disaster strikes. Say, for example, your entire city becomes submerged in water and your insurance company screws you. Having a big income and a stable job can make that situation, while still awful, lot easier. You can't use money to buy your way to happiness, but you can can use it to buy your way out of all sorts of miseries and stressors.

Re:Its a matter of perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

I call bullshit. I know this guy who got a job as head of a National Emergency org, and HE didn't have any qualifications. He didn't earn the job, although some might say he did pay for it.

Re:Its a matter of perspective

[WebCrapper]

The sad part is, most people (I'm guilty of it too) just roll their eyes and keep on truckin'. I wanted to be a programmer for my young adult life and now that I'm 26, I suddenly decided that I wanted to go with Mechanical Engineering with a focus on robotics. If I would have listened to the guidance counselors, the books (listing long hours, high stress, etc) and other programmers I would have saved myself a heck of a lot of time. But noooo, I knew everything in high school, just like most kids...sheesh

Sure ME shares some of the same down sides of programming, but at least I get to do what I want.

Re:Its a matter of perspective

[Jussi K. Kojootti]

Gongratulations! Your post has won the Most-Generalizations-In-One-Post Award. It's a real achievement considering the forum...

Re:Its a matter of perspective

[QuantumPion]

The American society is driven by greed to the point of obsession. The change has to come from within. Be a part of the solution, not a part of the problem.

What you call greed, I call an increase in the standard of living for everyone. That $5000 plasma TV did't come out of nowhere. It was made by eltrical engineers, industrial engineers, factory workers, stock holders, delivery guys, sales clerks, etc. The more you work and the more you buy, the better off everyone is.

The "problem" as you call it is the socialist mentality that you "deserve" this or "have a right to" that, at the expensive of the government and thus the taxpayers. Working hard to buy nice things is not greed. Demanding "free" services from the government; that is greed.

"Yes, but", and "Yes, and"

[Tackhead]

> Is it really better working for a company that cares about your satisfaction? Are there any companies like that and (more importantly) are they hiring?

Yes, but:

Yes, but - a company that cares about your satisfaction is necessary, but not sufficient. You're partially responsible for your own satisfaction. The company can only provide you an environment in which your work is meaningful, and with bosses who aren't asshats. Some companies fail to suck, but if you keep that "I show up, I hide for 8 hours a day, I get nothing done, and they still pay me" mentality, you're not going to enjoy it any more (or any less) than working at your last job.

Yes, and:

Yes, and - they do exist. And they're often hiring. They're everywhere, but they're usually small companies, and you wouldn't know about them unless you knew people already working there.

So, what to do:

Network. In other words, do the same thing you ought to be doing every night, Pinky. Ask your friends who's worth signing up with as part of your plan to try to take over the world.

Nope- no companies hiring that can afford to care

[Marxist Hacker 42]

RTFA-Even the most enlightened, caring employers are facing conditions that can lead to employee burnout. Bob Kerr, Innotec Stainless operations manager and Welding Wire subscriber, wrote, "I hope that as a follow-up to the replies you receive from burned-out welders, you can remind them that their employer's constant efforts to increase productivity while decreasing costs are also an effort to compete in an increasingly competitive market. If the employer cannot compete successfully utilizing domestic labor, he is either forced to offshore or close shop. Therefore, it is in the best interest of each employee to strive for higher personal productivity. As Americans, we tend to forget that we are indeed competing in an increasingly smaller world."

In other words, between the Clintonista Democrats and the Reganites and Bushies, we've signed too many free trade agreements for employers to actually be able to compete *and* care about their employees. So the second gets left in the dust because the federal government can't be bothered with the duties of the common defense and providing for the general welfare.

Burnout/hardwork

[QuantumRiff]

There is bound to be several threads here about how hard work is important, and those that complain are lazy, and want instant gratification. Let me just point out, that back in the day, you worked hard, put in insane hours, and got promoted. It was not unheard of to go from entry level to corporate VP. However, in the last decade, things have changed.. excuse me while I badly paraphrase Office Space "they're going to lay you off and hire interns, so that lumburg's stock will go up a quarter of a point" If you read the article, it also talks about employee dedication being offset by managements short term goals..

I work government, and while I do like my job, there is no real point in my putting in insane hours. Because in government, everyone has to be treated equally. I work about 45 hours a week, busy all day (and reading slashdot!). If we do raises, everyone gets a 2% raise, or x amount a year. Everyone. Even the people that sit around all day surfing the web. There is no reward for me implementing a system wide VOIP system in 1 month from brainstorm to going live. There is no incentive for me to put in tons of work, except for my own satisfaction, and resume building.

Re:Maslows Hierarchy of Needs

[rainman_bc]

Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a commonly misunderstood theory. It's about motivation. You can't expect someone to do something for self actualization, when safety need isn't being met. He theorizes that in order to have self-actualization as a motivator, you need to first fulfill physiological, safety, belongingness, esteem etc... A employee who cannot meet physiological needs will not be motivated by esteem needs. Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a motivation theory. Of course, Alderfer's ERG theory is also important to examine.

Hands down, happiness wins

[billdar]

I'm all about the happiness/contentment. I've worked in the worst conditions: slave hours, late paychecks, intrusive checks, back stabbing co-workers, and flat out vicious bosses.

Got lucky switching to a new industry at about the same pay in a less expensive town in California, and never looked back. The work is stimulating and pretty much everyone is within my age and socio-economic group. The work is more service based, so I get out of the office quite a bit and get to interact with customers. For a mid-size company, everyone pulls their own weight to just get the work done.

No time cards, just need to get the work done on time and to the customer satisfication. It is great. Get a couple days ahead? Get a couple guys together and go golphing.

After 2 years working here, I've gotten about a dozen job offers. 3 of them for double my current salary. Funk that. I'll just be able to afford $500 loafers to kick myself with after recieving my first TPS report.

Re:40 - average workweek

[QuantumG]

My job has long (LONG) periods where I have very little workload.. then we have weeks where there's no time to go get lunch or stop at the end of the day. If I worked in the fast food industry they'd put me on "casual" rates and send me home when there was no work to do. Thankfully I work for a megacorp on a salary and they pay me the same no matter how little or how much work there is to do. What pisses me off is the people who do nothing all day long for weeks and then refuse to work late when crunch time hits. They get used to the down periods and think that's all they should be required to do to get paid. I like to think of these guys as consolation prize employees. "I showed up, now give me my trophy!" To which I say, here's your casual rates.

Left the US, and loving it!

[Anubis333]

I would like to say that I left the USA and went to work for one of the best Game Developers in the EU: and I f*cking love this company. They seem to honestly care about the workers. We get ~25 days paid vacation, and OT is compensated with paid vacation days. (which is unheard of in the US) When they wanted to make a move to a larger city, they actually polled the workers to determine which city to move to! Sure, it's a Game Developer, so we stay long hours to finish things for deadlines, but it's so much nicer when you are working on a Sunday, being compensated; you get an email asking what you would like for lunch, and the CFO later walks around handing out ice cream bars to people saying "thanks for coming in on sunday, we will try to only ask you to come in on weekends when it is really needed." It really makes me want whats best for the company as a whole, and I would stay longer hours and work harder to make a better game and do better for the company I enjoy working at.

Re:Left the US, and loving it!

[fire-eyes]

That is really good to hear. I am currently in the later stages of a possible such move. I live in the US.

What I do not like about living in the US is how everything "seems" to be centered around materialism; You are what you make. You are your reputation. You are the car you drive. You are the suit you wear. In short. You are not "you".

The stress level is also extremely high. At least, generally, those around me have that problem. Which is puzzling to me. These folks seem to think it was PUT on them by others, when the truth is they PUT it on themselves. People have far more control than they think.

So, here I am working a dead-end job. My creativity is not challenged. My knowledge is not pushed. I am not encouraged to learn more.

Now there is this company in the Netherlands, and all signs point towards this working. I'd be doing IT security stuff. Basically, play a cracker from the outside then teach them how to secure it, and translate that into a plan the business can accept.

Your post got me for many reasons. It sounds like the attitude in Europe is SO much different. It sounds like they still understand that life is about EXPERIENCES, and it is NOT about your stuff, or putting too much time in at work.

This does not mean they don't care about work, it just sounds like they have a better balance.

If my passport clears in the next few weeks (there is no reason I can think of that it would not), I should be over there in November for a visit. If I like it, I will go live there.

Thanks for your post, made me feel a lot better in this slightly "scary" situation i'm in. But it's also thrilling.

p.s. Help me learn dutch :) I want to speak en het Nederlands :)

Re:WAAAAAAAH! I'M SAD!

[ChickenFan]

Americans are, apparently, the most productive workers in the world. ... but they're sure as shit not the happiest.

I've worked in Europe and I've enjoyed 40 hour work weeks and 35 days paid vacation per year. It made me more productive overall when I was at work. Strange but true.

Now I'm in the U.S. and I get 15 days vacation and the idea of 40 hours in high-tech is a joke.

So now I work long hours (but get less done), don't get decent vacations, am worried about the cost of heathcare and whether I'm going to get fired next week for "realignment" reasons, have a 70 minute commute in stop/go traffic and a $500,000 mortgage on a shit-hole house and I'm barely making the payments.

Still, you've got to laugh.

A company who cares

[Anonymous Coward]

SRA International a company who genuinely cares about it's employees. Their motto: "Honesty and Service". It would be nice if there were more companies out there like them.

I work there so am posting as AC because it might be concidered an ethics violation for me to make a post on a public forum.

The grass is always greenest over the septic tank

[briancnorton]

There is no reason to stick around for a job you don't like. If you can't find another job that you will like, then you aren't looking hard enough.

That said, perhaps you need to step back and ponder your situation a bit.
Is it really the job that you don't like?
Could it be that you just aren't good at it?
Do your coworkers not like you?
Do they have a good reason?
Why do you think it's the company's job to make you happy?

These and other questions sound silly, but are crucialy important. You may like your job just fine, but be unhappy with your personal life. You may not mesh with others in your office. Maybe you would be happier starting your own business. Don't automatically assume that all your problems are the fault of someone else. The only consistant feature of every unsatisfying relationship that you have ever had is you. Something to ponder.

Weigh your values carefully

[chia_monkey]

I just came across a proposition to change my career yet again. When I was in Philly (ick) I was installing wifi all around the country. I dug the hell out of it but I really missed everything Santa Cruz, CA had to offer me. So I quit what I was doing and moved out to the west coast. I still had my consulting company out here but it wasn't a steady paycheck and bringing me the big bucks.

So here I am in CA, doing tech support for the courthouse (we let our consulting company slowly fold as my biz partner headed off to law school and I sought a bit more stability). I get to ride my bike to work every day (about 10 miles each), have great weather, good people all around, the ocean here, the mtns, etc. However, just recently I was offered the chance to do the wifi stuff again with a 50% raise. I pondered it for about a week and realized it wasn't a lifestyle I wanted. 50% wasn't enough to travel all the time, have instability, won't get to ride all the time, etc. Paying the bills would be awesome, but it's just not worth the sacrifice. Apply this to all your job decisions and man...it's interesting what you can come up with.

Re:WAAAAAAAH! I'M SAD!

[Anonymous Coward]

The UK average for men in fulltime employment is 45.8 hours per week.

One study found that workers on more than 48 hours per week were twice as likely to have heart attacks as similar workers on 40 or less hours per week.

So i guess if you want an early grave, no free time, stupid copyright laws, and christian extreamists running the country. The USA is the place to be. God bless America.

http://www.lhc.org.uk/members/pubs/factsht/61fact. htm

Yea...well, sorta...

[OneFix]

Education and Government.

Education and Govt both pay poorly when compared to their private sector jobs...which really means they arent as demanding, but because the IT departments tend to be smaller, you get a good opportunity to try out new technlogies...the biggest drawback from both of these are low pay and yearly audits...

For some, they would rather make $40k/yr and be happy and fairly secure than make $80k/yr with a job they hate...

To get a job that you wont eventually hate you honestly have to be willing to accept lower pay or lack of freedom, or both...

Re:Burn out at work is not always work related!

[dada21]

Funny, one of my first properties was a trailer. No one in my park was trash. I paid the trailer off in a year and saved enough to buy a cheap condo for cash. The condo did not compare with the quality of life in the trailer.

In fact, I'm reconsidering trailer living because of the housing bubble. I would probably save $20,000/year, and get almost $200,000 freed in over-inflated equity.

Don't knock it. Trailer > Apartment IMHO.

the best person to work for is yourself

[Anonymous Coward]

Having done my time as a 80+hr/week slave for a while, and then getting shunted when things got tight, I can say that the only person who is worth working for is yourself. Any employer will cut you loose if things get tight, but you won't ever sack yourself, and when you're busy, *you* gain from it.

It is called work for a reason...

[Louie's Demise]

They call it work for a reason. If it was "fun" to be at work, you would be paying them to be there. :) Sometimes jobs fit different periods of your life. The high stress, high travel job might be good for a young professional with no family yet. Once your responsibility to others increase, your job needs might change. I might be perceived as good to give your children an Ivy League education, but is it worth it if you missed all or many of theirr basketball or soccer games? Would they even know you? A balance is good. I am sure some people can produce High income and have time to be with their family. Good for you. But for the rest of us, this is not possible. Life is not a dress rehersal, this is the real thing. Spend some of your opportunity cost on living. :) -Nick

Re:Nope- no companies hiring that can afford to ca

[Anonymous Coward]

Last I looked- the Chinese pay $.34/hr. How do you compete with that? And I don't understand- why would they have to charge more when they can just shoot the people who earn more (after all, there are always more workers in a society of a billion)?

Generally, what we have had to do is change significantly in every area, and get better in everything we do. We're now growing at 20% a year. One of the key points is that our product has become IMPOSSIBLE to make at our quality level at something like 34c an hour. Another key point is we are now totally custom made. This requires considerable amounts of highly skilled service, that can only be provided locally (as it is next to impossible to do well from a great distance).

Chinese per capita income has increased about five times since 2002 and GDP at about 9% a year if I recall correctly. Like what happens with any country when its people become more affluent, this leads to more job choice with economic growth. Businesses compete for the skilled, already trained workers as they grow and desperately need more labor to fufill increased sales under tight, ruthless deadlines. This is one of the main reasons per capita income is rising, and of course, by extension, costs of production. They also can't shoot the people who make more, as they cannot grow, or even produce, as they go through the considerable expense of training a completely inexperienced work force. ( I don't know if they would if they could ;) Keep in mind that China is growing population wise at less than the rest of the world. They have had a one child per family policy since the 50's and have very economically unfavorable demographics coming up in I think about twenty years (as the US does in about five).

_jake

Re:Burn out at work is not always work related!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, this is a guy whose never had to work fast food to support a family, the typical get out of college making 60k/year why-can't-other-people-get-it-together mentality. Doesn't work when you might actually have a family or real responsibility of any kind.

And you have the life-just-happens mentality. You don't just wake up one day and *poof* have a family. It's a choice you make. And if you aren't "out of college making 60k/year", maybe you should wait until you make a little bit more money or put some savings away before you decide to have a family. Use birth control, have an abortion, or just stop having sex if you can't afford to raise a child.

That reminds me of the time I heard someone say on NPR, "How can you raise a family on a Walmart wage?" A better question might be, "Why the fuck are you trying to raise a family on a Walmart wage?" Sometimes I wish those people could be spanked by their own children, because the parents really put the children through hell by having a family before they get their finances in order.

I also agree that you're responsible for your own happiness, but expecting everyone to be in the position to get up and leave anytime is not realistic.

It is if they have an IQ over 80, they're 25 years old or older, and they don't have a serious physical illness. If you don't have some money saved up by then, you're doing something wrong. Maybe I'll say 30 years old if you came from a really, REALLY poor family or if there has been a recession for a long time. Of course, recessions make life harder in general, and I blame the government for creating recessions by distorting the market's natural interest rate...but that's an argument for another day.

Why should you.. or anyone care?: Slave Mentality.

[Generalisimo Zang]

What does it matter what the GDP of your nation is?

If the nation's GDP goes up an extra 1%, do you get a dividend check for your share of the difference?

If the nation's GDP goes up 3% will you suddenly become more handsome, grow a larger penis overnight, and get a 20 point IQ boost?

Unless you're getting an equal and/or fair share of the increase in GDP, then crowing about how "GDP has gone up!!!11one" is simply a slave mentality... you're somehow happy that your masters who control the economy made some more profit, even though you'll get none of the fruits of that increase.

If you've got a 35-hour workweek, 6 weeks of paid vacation every year, free healthcare, free schooling through Bachelor's-level for your kids, and a guaranteed old-age pension.... would you give it all up so you could live in a country that had a slightly higher GDP????

Are you insane? What on god's green earth effect will a higher GDP have on your own personal life experience??

Re:Nope- no companies hiring that can afford to ca

[Anonymous Coward]

Local service is good, it's the only way I've survived the last 4 years since my last layoff. I've gotten a lot better at customer service myself. Too bad I hate people- which is why I went into software to begin with.

I know what you mean, I've had to learn alot about tolerance, which is good for ya. And dealing with energy vampires- those that are never content until they make you as miserable as they are. They take more than garlic- you need a completely stable center. As difficult as it is, do you think you're a better person for it?

Depends which side of the pie you're on- if you're a wage slave working to pay off loans for failed businesses, those look like very economically FAVORABLE demographics.

True, except the fuckers will probably take the money and run and screw everybody.

However, I'm sure if China gets too expensive- the corporations will just move elsewhere. Nobody really cares about quality instead of price anymore, even when it raises TCO.

Definitely. It's already happening. Eastern Europe has been in the mix for a while with desperate wage slaves to exploit, Cambodia, etc. The march to pay less will continue until there's no one else for WalMart to squeeze. Just like the British Empire most recently. Already, surprisingly, many poor nations are touting higher costs and better work conditions as a market differentiation. It's gaining steam, and I like to think it's goodwill and an understanding of how the universe works as much as PR appeal, but who knows.

ps. A large percentage of things labeled "Made in Italy" are not, because of their very lax labeling laws. Romania especially is making a huge chunk of these products.

_jake

Re:Love what you do

[AutopsyReport]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that society needs people to work meaningless jobs. I think many people are actually satisfied working meaningless jobs -- because work to them is meaningless besides the small paycheck. You call it slaving, I call you foolish.

There's ample reason to take these meaningless jobs. You call them meaningless, soul-crushing and degrading. If you've been a prostitute or similiar for some years, then I'd understand your take on this. But a janitorial position (or heck, even McDonalds) is considerably better than many other jobs and sincerely not soul-crushing. Just because you find it degrading and soul-crushing to clean toilets does not imply the same for millions of other workers around the world who care more about feeding their children than the quality of their employment.

Many people are content with that they have. But please do not suggest they work degrading jobs -- that's degrading to them -- 'them' being the people you step over to get ahead in life, but who continue to keep the world moving despite their lack of advance.

Re:get out of industry and into education

[edremy]

I'll second the comment. Academia offers low pay and crappy benefits for the most part, but you have a tremendous amount of flexibility and possible advancement opportunities

Me? I was hired to be the "instructional tech guy". What did that mean? Well, in a nutshell nobody really knew exactly, so I could do what I wanted. I've got a reasonably clued boss who trusts me when I say "I think we need to do X", so at various times it's meant

• Moving us to an Open Source course management system, ePortfolio, and image database.
• Doing all the integration to get the above to talk to each other and various closed source systems
• Training faculty to use all the stuff
• Writing custom apps in everything from VB (spit) to PHP to Actionscript
• Video and photo editing
• Designing tech for classrooms
• Writing grants to pay for all of the above
• And a host of other random things

In other words, whatever I felt was interesting to play with that day. Couple that with an interesting intellectual atmosphere (Where else can you ask around about negative yield curves and get good answers?) and the freedom to add to that. (I've invited James Randi to speak on campus next week[1]) Oh yeah, and no TPS reports. About the only thing I have to do to justify my actions is write a few paragraphs once per year.

As far as advancement, we tend to hire total noobs with good attitudes. My boss (head of IT) started as a secretary with a high school education. Moved up to the Help Desk, started working on her BS, started managing the Help Desk, moved over to the admin support staff...

Yeah, it can get annoying at times with the petty politics, but for all you hear about prima-donna professors I'll take them anyday over typical corporate minions. (I've worked both sides)

[1] If you're in central Virginia, it's the 5th of October and it's free. Check his schedule for details

Re:Maslows Hierarchy of Needs

[DarkSarin]

As the sibling post points out, Maslow's Hierarchy of needs is a motivation theory. As someone (psychologist in training--only 2 years to PhD), who studies motivation as their primary area of expertise, allow me to be the one who says that as a theory of motivation, it is woefully inadequate and outdated. There are valid points to it, yes, but generally speaking, it stinks.

From a graduate paper I wrote about burnout, I will state that what I remember indicates that burnout is a result of feelings of inefficacy, and inability to change the current situation. Thus, from an organizational behavior point of view, its simply the state where motivation to work approaches (but never reaches) zero. Note that motivation is a directed behavior, not an attitude. Certainly there is a set of emotions and feelings associated very strongly with that behavior, but motivation is most accurately described as a behavior (specifically the allocation of time and energy toward a specific task).

Burnout is awful. It is real. Employers can, and should*, do things to prevent it. Those who suffer from burnout should be given access to resources and activities that will relieve that burnout.

*This is what most employers get wrong. Leaving aside such fuzziness as "good corporate citizenship" and similar ideas, burned out employees cost money. They are inefficient, and the chances are that their replacements will burn out as well as costing money and time to train properly. Hiring new employees is often as expensive or more expensive as reviving and helping your current ones. I won't make an ethical argument here, although one exists, and shouldn't be ignored, because I know that the managers want a financial/business related reason to do things. This is utility analysis (something I am becoming more interested in).

it can come true-here's my story...

[mojoNYC]

Here's my story, in the hope that somebody will read it, and may be influenced to take a leap...

briefly, I started as a graphic designer and production artist in 1990, first working for a manufacturer, then going on my own for a couple of years--my computer skills have been valuable because I learned the technical aspects of print production, rather than just making pretty layouts--in the mid 90s, I started learning web design and multimedia (Director) --wanting to be my own boss, I started a small design biz and went on my own--during this time, I had my own clients, as well as doing freelance work inside many top ad and marketing agencies in Minneapolis. then, I went to work for a homegrown ad agency, who was actually pretty good to work for, with lots of perks, but also having to put up with typical client BS.

by 2000 i'd had enough, and moved to New York City, to get an advanced degree, learning multimedia art + design, and to see how i'd match up with the best. I was freelancing while going to school, which went fine at first, and then slowly dissipated with the dotcom bubble burst, finally falling on 9-11, which I saw from my classroom window. the next year and a half were spent trying to work out of this--I actually got a job at a remaining dot-com, but the founder split with the last 600k, and I was out of a job a week after I was hired...at this point, my rent wasn't being paid, much less my bills or student loans--also, I'd exhausted any credit I had, or even friends or parents to help me pay my bills--i was on my own, with no income and few prospects (freelance rates dropped through the floor at this time, and the competition became ever more fierce). bankruptcy was imminent...

I still kept my work studio, though, because I found I *needed* to keep working--the silver lining is that with commercial work nonexistent, I could work on my own projects--I distinctly remember waking up to go to the studio being flat broke, knowing that the financial world was closing in on me. strangely, I felt free and ok with this, becausee even though I wasn't being paid, I was going to go and work on my stuff, because that's what I do.

just when things were at their lowest, I met my future wife--she's European, and from a family of artists (and she's a geek;>--we fell in love and got married, and most of my concerns were eliminated...because my wife's father (who died when she was young) left her some money, I am able to work without having to submit to the most lucrative job--I teach interactive multimedia design and spend the rest of my time working on my own projects. Next year, I will be releasing my own creative work, (hopefully in conjunction with a major event that I am working on being a part of), while continuing to teach, and spend time with my beautiful (geek) wife...

what's the point? Surely, I got incredibly lucky, however, that luck came after I stayed true to my own self, and pursued my dream--I was willing to take less, and put in more, in order to pursue my dream, and in the end, it came back to me a thousandfold--before that, however, I gave up a steady job, where I made good money, but got very little satisfaction putting together schlock work for anybody willing to pay.

lots of people would trade places with me now, but which nobody would have done 2 1/2 years ago--I do believe that it was my willingness to stick it out to the bitter end that got me this far--that's the message that I want to send out--you *can* make your dreams come true, if you want them bad enough--they will never turn out quite like you expect in the beginning, but you can see it clearly, looking back...

corporations are like casinos--they may pay you some coin, but they'll take your heart and soul in return--I can't blame anybody who takes a corporate job to feed themselves and their families, however, it's always a tradeoff, and make no mistake, they take as much of your heart and soul as they can. In return, many of the things that you think you need are actually modern 'convenien

Software Engineer --- Marine Aviator

[eggmit]

In 2004, I left a job as a software engineer to join the Marines as a Naval Flight Officer (think Goose from Top Gun). I was making good money ($70k 1 year out of college), had flexible hours, and had a great working environment (awesome boss and several friends), but it just wasn't satifying me.

Now as a 2nd Lieutenant with 1 year of service, I make the equivalent of $42k (tax adjusted) and am loving it. The money is more than enough for everything I want & need.

The only thing I miss is how academic & intellectual everyone was back at my job in the civilian world. Don't get me wrong; the people here are smart, but it's more in terms of technical proficiency and quick thinking. Running my own programming business on the side seems to satisfy that need, though.

Re:Burnout.

[Kjella]

I prefer the great philosopher 'Weird Al' Yankovic:
"Well, if money can't buy happiness, then I guess I'll have to rent it."

Disturbingly enough, there's a point in there somewhere. Bought friends, blingbling, pleasures *cough* only last as long as you can keep paying for them. It is in bad times you see who will really stick up for you.

Re:40 - average workweek

[David Off]

> From my humble experience, these guidelines help with the subject of the article

I will add one, don't say anything about your boss or coworkers to a third party that you wouldn't say to their face.

Basically the above poster is right, work comes down to timekeeping. Get in on time and your boss won't hassle you too much no matter what "career development" you do during slack periods.

Come in "late" on a regular basis and you are trouble and lazy. No matter how good or hard you work or how many hours you really put in.

Re:Why should you.. or anyone care?: Slave Mentali

[BenjyD]

My girlfriend gets 37.5hrs/week flexitime, 5 weeks holiday, 'free' healthcare (actually National Insurance for ~£50/month, IIRC), a guaranteed state pension and got free education to Bachelors level (although that's changed now) in a junior admin position in the UK. I'm self-employed in the UK, but work entirely for a German company, so I see how well they treat their workers too.

I think the continental European countries do take the Socialist thing a bit far, but good working conditions aren't as bad for the economy as some Americans seem to think.

Re:Love what you do

[gunnk]

No no no no no...

I believe you CAN go out there and find the work you want and can make a living at it IF you want badly enough to do the very hard work of getting there.

Your shelf-stackers that want to be architects can't just quit to become an architect. They have to pay the bills while working to fulfill their dreams. That means stacking shelves while going to school -- possibly school during the day and stacking in the evenings. It may mean eating Ramen noodles twice a day and taking the bus so they don't have to own a car. It means working twice as hard NOW to realize a dream LATER.

Few people have that kind of resolve and discipline.

Your mechanic that wants to be a painter? Can he make a living with his paintings? If not, he'll stay a mechanic and paint on the weekends if he loves to paint.

The electrician that wants to be a musician? Do you play an instrument? I play a little guitar: it takes every bit as much work to learn to play well as it took me to get my degree in physics.

After I graduated from college I took a job doing research under contract with the EPA. It payed well. The hours were comfortable. The security was high... ... but I didn't like the work. I decided I wanted to work with computers (back around 1990). I grabbed a big, thick book on "Upgrading and Maintaining PC's" and learned as much as I could. Studied. CRAMMED.

Then I found a company looking for an entry-level tech offering a MUCH lower salary than I had with my research position -- I dropped to $24,000/year. I spent 18 months in a hellish job, but it gave me the skills and experience to move on to a better position.

In other words, I was willing to pay the price to move on to something better -- and I wasn't in a bad position to begin with!

I'm now a senior systems developer and administrator implementing a HIPAA-compliant network of my own design using open source solutions in a research institute dedicated to child development studies.

Getting here was HARD. Leaving my stable research job was SCARY.

Shelf-stockers, factory workers, bartenders: there are some people are quitting those jobs all the time to follow a dream. However, MOST people will take the security of their current, unloved job over the scary leap. Most would rather have a beer after work with friends than go home to hit the books or practice their music, or hone their craft.

Most people can get up and chase their dream, but it often comes at a price they are not willing to pay.

Re:Nope- no companies hiring that can afford to ca

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I know what you mean, I've had to learn alot about tolerance, which is good for ya. And dealing with energy vampires- those that are never content until they make you as miserable as they are. They take more than garlic- you need a completely stable center. As difficult as it is, do you think you're a better person for it?

I've never quite understood the idea of "better" and "worse" people to begin with- must be something in my Asperger's. As far as I'm concerned, people are people and I treat them as such within the limits of my ability. My if-then-else model is a bit more complete now, and I mask my inadequacy better, though. I've got a ton of e-mails from my current contract showing a 98% success rate with customer service. So in that way, I guess I'm a better person.

True, except the fuckers will probably take the money and run and screw everybody.

Well, there is that- the key that I'm working on is building a separate-from-my-standard-contract business on teaching the Internet to the Baby Boomers- who don't currently have a clue but will soon have plenty of time in retirement to get one.

Definitely. It's already happening. Eastern Europe has been in the mix for a while with desperate wage slaves to exploit, Cambodia, etc. The march to pay less will continue until there's no one else for WalMart to squeeze. Just like the British Empire most recently. Already, surprisingly, many poor nations are touting higher costs and better work conditions as a market differentiation. It's gaining steam, and I like to think it's goodwill and an understanding of how the universe works as much as PR appeal, but who knows.

The problem is if you're in a family that was never quite rich to begin with- but assumed that hard work + good education = good life. My son is going to learn the lessons early on that what makes a good life has to come from inside- not out. And that unlike the experience of say, the GI Generation and before- hard work and education mean next to nothing if you don't like yourself first.

ps. A large percentage of things labeled "Made in Italy" are not, because of their very lax labeling laws. Romania especially is making a huge chunk of these products.

As if anybody would notice if they just stamped it "Made in Romania" and sold it for 1/10th the price anybody else could.

Not sure we're much alike at all, then....

[King_TJ]

For starters, I've never had a $60K a year job. I've certainly done work where you'd assume or expect that's what I was paid, but actually - more like around $48K was about the most I've seen (and not for quite some time, at that!).

Also, by the mere fact that I do have a kid, almost *everything* changes. For starters, there are a number of jobs I've had to skip over applying for because working in rotating shifts was one of their requirements. (How can you find someone who will take care of a 3 year old for you when you're alternating working mornings, days, and late nights every month or two?) In fact, even "overtime" is extremely troublesome for me, since I have to pick my kid up from daycare no later than 6PM each day. I don't have the option of just "agreeing to work late" with no advance notice, if something comes up. And many of today's employers simply expect that. That's why they're looking to hire people fresh out of college, who don't have a family yet to "get in the way".

I always followed the majority of your listed "points for 16 year olds to learn from" - but a few of them just aren't realistic. For example, I always knew renting was a bad deal - but when I first moved out of my parents' house, I ended up renting an apartment with a roommate. At that point in time, I didn't have any credit history built up yet, nor did I have money for a downpayment on a house. But it was still time to move out (or just become a leech off of my parents - which I don't believe in doing either). When I got the opportunity, I did buy a small house (for well below market value, no less), and pay less on my mortgage each month than some people pay on their car loans. Waiting until a home is fully paid off to get married is ridiculous adivce, IMHO. Marriage should happen whenever 2 people in love with each other feel it's the right step to take. It really shouldn't be governed by how much property someone has paid off. Assuming a healty, normal relationship - both partners should simply be committed to the job of trying to get through life together. If part of that means both people doing their part to keep payments current on a house, so what?

Your point #7, by the way, is very questionable advice in my opinion. That's exactly what I did, and I feel quite certain it's one of the biggest mistakes I made! When you work for small businesses, you don't end up with any recognizable/respectable names of employers to put on your resume, nor do you gain experience working in many scenarios that are only available to people in a very large workplace. Hiring managers see big company names on a resume, and feel more "secure" in a decision to hire you. There's an assumption that a large business has the resources to do more complete background checks and so forth; If you were good enough to get and keep a job with one of them for a length of time, you're probably good enough for the next position too. When you work for small places, it looks more suspicious - like perhaps the business owners were just personal friends who hired you as more of a favor?