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Pay vs. Happiness
itri writes "A co-worker recently sent me and article about job burnout. Although it's a year old, the points seemed to resonate well with me. The nutshell of the article is that job burnout is caused by lack of the sense of accomplishment, working for a narcissistic boss, and a conflict between the employers and employee's values. Is it really better working for a company that cares about your satisfaction? Are there any companies like that and (more importantly) are they hiring?"
Thoreau said, "A man is only as rich as the number of things he can let alone." Who cares how much money you make if you're so swamped you can't enjoy it? I am considering a career change for this very reason. Life's too flipping short.
I have to say that this article makes me feel crazier than I normally do.
With so many people out of work, it seems almost like biting the hand that feeds you to complain about your work conditions and expect your employer to care. Your employer's role is to provide work for you. Your job is to do that work. The employer should "care" in order to make you the most efficient you can be, but it is not their job to make sure you don't have other life ills that may cause you to take on more than you can handle. All my employees who have burned out in the past were replaced by people who accepted more pressure, more time constraints, and more deadlines without burning out. Those who burned out with me had burned out in the past and continue to burn out to this day. There are many reasons why they've burned out, and few of them had anything to do with the job.
Job burnout has more to do with the lack of appreciation and reward an employee receives for his or her efforts than an increased work load. NO. Job burnout has more to do with the fact that the employee sacrifices himself for a crappy job, why? Maybe because he's in terrible debt! Get your finances in order, and you can walk away from ANY bad job. Never tell me you NEED your job because of financial struggle. Maybe his girlfriend is a manic depressive freak who constantly pulls him away from his other responsibilities. Maybe he's got a habit that he can't kick, or he's got some baggage that makes him want to succeed no matter what. You made your bed, sleep in it.
Those suffering from job burnout feel no sense of accomplishment from and no control over their work lives. So walk away. Start your own company. SAVE. The Chinese are saving up to 40% of their income. The Americans are now saving 1%, 30% of all mortgages lately are interest-only. Why are you stressed: job or real life?
Today to get ahead and save for a reasonable retirement, workers often must hop from company to company to get a promotion. Ahhh! The average employee puts almost 15% of his income away in Social Security that he knows he will never see! How about if he put 15% of his income into his own house, savings account, vacation, or whatever? How much happier would he be? Do NOT say that employers are responsible for YOUR retirement. What are we teaching our next generation? That is it someone else's responsibility to take care of us in our old age.
Everyone is expendable, thanks to many employers' short-term, economic goals. I've run 7 businesses in the 15 years I've been in business. ALL of them had long-term goals, but I also realized that a LOT of my employees would be short term as they learned from me and found someone willing to pay the more. The wonderful free market allows people to do this. Those I invested the most in I had the most reason to pay better and give better fringe benefits to. Those who left because someone was willing to pay more than me found themselves in a better position. Those that complained I wasn't paying enough were not worth more to me, and not worth more to anyone else either it seemed.
The job conflicted with my values. I was mentally and physically exhausted and suffered from chronic stomach problems. Oh, I didn't realize this guy was forced to keep this job. Did his employer put a gun to his head? Did he have absolutely no other options to get a job? Did he really LIKE the pain it caused him?
Not dealing with a burned-out employee can undermine your organization's health and lead to a burnout epidemic. In the free market this is called "bankruptcy" and rarely has to do with employee's health. When all your employees are getting burned out, it is likely that the business was failing in many other areas.
It is very important to realize that there are MANY reasons why people burn out in work, in relationships, in friendships, in life in general. To blame employers for this VERY complex situation is ridiculous, and I believe t
The problem in finding out whether job burnout is occurring is because job burnout is nondiscriminating. Employees at all levels suffer. The symptoms of job burnout, particularly cynicism, have a way of spreading. Even employees who like their jobs and find them rewarding eventually may perceive a co-worker's complaints about management and lack of appreciation as valid. Not dealing with a burned-out employee can undermine your organization's health and lead to a burnout epidemic. Alleviating job burnout causes can strengthen morale, job satisfaction, and (what I think is most important to the company): productivity.
+1 funny, -2 overrated. Life isn't fair.
Maslow's hierarch of needs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_o f_needs) would say that a job can, over time, satisfy an employees physiological needs and safety, however, once these demands are met with money, an employer will look upwards in the hierarchy to love and belonging, and see that he could be doing better. I think that this is what happens, people see that once they are 'safe' from their basic needs, they look to expand both their emotions and themselves as individuals. People wish to do as well as they can, and doing so they look up the pyramid, leading them to change jobs, even if this produces a pay cut, as long as the pay cut allows them to live without any hardship.
Of course you can love what you do and still burnout due to bad leadership, bad environments, crappy salary, etc. But when you already love what you do you know exactly what you want and you know what to shoot for. There are many people out there who don't even know what they want to do.
So the trick is just to find a good place to do what you really love. Everything else falls into place after that. The world is a big place. Unless your specialty is the study of the mating habits of the black-striped vampire burrowing ferret that only lives in a remote region of Mongolia, you usually have choices about jobs.
From my humble experience, these guidelines help with the subject of the article
1. Be at work 10 minutes before time
2. Leave on time or up to 5 minutes after.
3. Don't do overtimes unless it's happening at most once a week and it's paid.
4. Have your own strong principles and be professional, do what you are paid for, but keep in mind rule number 2.
5. When a 'funny' new idea/feature/concept is about to be discussed and possibly implemented, don't go nuts over it. Stay calm, state your view, sit down and shut up. The last part is important because regardless of the undesirability of the idea, if your boss wants it to be implemented, you'll have no choice anyway. Instead of being stressed out, refer to rule 2 and 6.
6. Once work hours ends, forget everything until the next day regardless of the pressure. Work isn't your personal life.
7. Remember that people treat you the way you've allowed them to do.
If you still don't agree with me, do read:
workweek
Average work week in manufactoring
The smaller the company usually the less politics you need to go threw, the chances you are working on an important job is higher. Because you are a big fish in a small pond you actually feel like you are needed. If you work in a large corporation the benefits will be better but in a smaller company you will get more experience and you will be able to achieve more.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Oh man, you are so disconnected with the real world - i don't think you have ever installed Linux - not in the last 5 years anyway.
Windows is only easy to maintain because everybody get so much practise fixing it all the time...
Oh well, what the hell...
I was in a sales job that I absolutely hated. I would do anything I could while there to keep my mind off work, while I was working! I would call my friends, drive around aimlessly and just day dream. Worst part was not only did I hate the job, I had to commute an hour every morning. It was against the normal traffic flow, so just a straight 70 miles north of my city.
I quit that job to take my current position which I really enjoy. I don't have to commute more than 15 mins. I don't have to put in overtime. I don't have to worry about job security, and I don't get paid shit, but the benefits are amazing.
I was on track to make $55,000 at my old job, but like I said I hated it, had I tried I would have been on track to make closer to $80,000. I now make $32,000 and am so much happier. Best part is I get to look at Slashdot all day while sitting in my office. Seriously, look at my previous posts, I make 90% of them between 8:30am to 4:00pm.
P.S. I ride the bus to work, no one in their right mind would do that unless they are happy with thier jobs. Or one of the hippies who ride with me.
Good advice.
Do your job, be professional, avoid getting into that other stuff.
I enjoy my job, it's a good job. I take pride in my work, I do a good job.
I leave on time, and leave work at the office, generally.
I rarely take work home, and I try not to travel on weekends. I'm fair to the company and they're (so far) fair to me. It helps I've got a reasonable boss who believes in that balance results in better long term performance. Many other supervisors I've seen are less balanced in his approach, their people work more, but don't seem to be any more successful, and their turnover is higher.
Makes you think.
I've found that I'm happiest when my employer's reason for being fits in with my core belief system. While I don't hold an employer responsible for my happiness, I know that when I'm in sync with my place of employ, I find joy. As my needs, desires, and goals drift away from those of my workplace, the pleasure I derive from working diminishes (and I usually move along).
For me, I don't want or expect, the employer to stive to make me happy. I want an employer who understands what they do, why they do it, and that they do it well.
Keep looking, you can find work that is meaningful for you.
Is it really better working for a company that cares about your satisfaction? Are there any companies like that and (more importantly) are they hiring?
Yes, yes, and just to add it another time for good measure YES!
Job satisfaction is a huge one on my priority list, it should be on your employers list, but most of the time it won't be. It's a shame that it works this way, but that's life I guess. I am self motivated normally because what I do the people who I work for can see the benefits of what I am trying to do. I also have a very good working relationship with them so if I need money for budgets or someone out of my way to do things, it's all very easy to organise. This means when I have to work two or three weeks straight and pull 12 - 14 hours days for that period I know that taking time off afterwards to see family / friends won't even be questioned. Anything else that I need during that time will also be taken care of without question too.
It all comes down to the person / people who you report to, some people just aren't adept at keeping people happy by doing all those little things that keep staff. Most of the time, it's usually other members who care more and make your boss do things. I know that I bought a lot of alcohol (Bottles of wine, champagne) pens and other small gifts for staff. I managed to get one of our staff members sent away to a resort with one of her friends for a weekend away after finishing a project.
A lot of the time I find it's all about the relationship you have with the people that you report to, if you can see them as friends and they respect you for what you are doing, then all problems seem to fade away. If you are consistently not seeing eye-to-eye on things, I would definitely move somewhere else.
Just to let you know as well, from having managed teams before, and people that have been unhappy and going to leave, the company policy before was just to give them a pay rise and that would make them stay. Only problem with that is none of the issues about WHY that person is unhappy have been resolved. In two or three months they will want to leave again. Usually it comes down to job appreciation and giving them challenges to keep them thinking. If you do this I have seen people work for a lot less because they actually enjoy their work. When people are happy it's very very easy to correlate between their performance at work as well.
Employers like this do exist, but it's just a case of finding them. I would find out what makes you happy and ask questions about this in your interviews to see if the company that you could be working for is really what you are after.
Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat. -- Author unknown
I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees
...Rob
The American Dream isn't an SUV and a house in the suburbs; it's Don't Tread On Me.
It is my personal iTunes collection all of which were either purchased on CD and ripped to iTunes or purchased from the iTunes music store. iTunes allows up to five people to share your libraries of music and you can have your music hosted on up to three (I think) machines. So the library at my laboratory is a copy of the library i have at home on the music server. Nothing we do here is illegal.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
Seriously now... First, a very sincere and emphatic kudos to all those hard-workers out there. But I can't help but ask:
1. Are all of you really doing what's best for yourselves? Clearly not all of you, working long and hard for status symbols that (usually) won't get you a thing, and products (of course not all of them, but the percentage is high) you likely wouldn't have cared for if they weren't a short distraction from a moment of idleness spent leafing through advertisements at the paper. Most rational people would rather spend the money buying back that most important of commodities (well, after food and shelter) - time. Free time.
2. Are you doing what's best for society? No. If you were unwilling to work as long, other people would have been hired to fill your places when you're not at work. Both you and them would have been paid more for the time you did work, as there would have been more demand for workers and less of a supply of them. Also, if you consumed less... Well, we I don't need to tell you what that would have done for the environment.
(By the way, saying I'm not a socialist would be putting it mildly. But the opposing view to that isn't a mindless race to consume as much as possible, frittering precious time away in the process.)
News for merdes. Shit that matters.
Ask me about my sig.
I disagree completely. I'm trying to lead a really happy life right now, instead of planning to do it after 30 years of misery. In a way I've told the whole capitalist rat race to fuck off many years ago.
The idea you talk about is the whole Christian work ethic once again, with retirement as the blissful afterlife. There are other, IMHO better ways to live your life.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
If you indeed mean "drop out as soon as possible (and safe)", then we're not in disagreement. But I do think most people would rather keep working (but less) well into their 60s, because there's not much else for them to do, and hell, they may even enjoy it. So work less (and spend less) for a long time instead of rush to the finish line.
News for merdes. Shit that matters.
Ask me about my sig.
Yeah the world can always use one less lawyer, and one more chef.
You can be a field slave, work harder, and make lower pay while having more freedom and less responsibility. Or you can be a house slave with higher pay and more responsibity. Either way you'll have a boss unless you are the CEO in which case you are the slave master.
My point is, unless you own yourself you will be unhappy, so unless the economy is good, you are going to either be a rich banker, or working for walmart. The good jobs will be shipped overseas while all the crappy jobs that suck like service jobs, these will stay.
So what would you prefer? Rich and unhappy working for a corrupt boss? Poor and unhappy working for a corrupt boss? The only way out of being unhappy is to be your own boss.
Be your own bully, or be bullied.
Pay your employees what they are worth, treat them well, put the stockholders SECOND (and make your employees know it), and strive for success. If you need to build a molehill, engage your employees to built a mountain.
The problem with most jobs is that (and it's true for me) I *know* I can do a better job than the person above me. And it's not the work itself -- I have ideas to make things work smoother, cheaper, more efficient, etc. Most companies fear change -- they do what they can to keep everything successful and change nothing for sake of their employees.
Why do you think Google is the 'job' that EVERYBODY wants (myself included)? Their environment is key to their success. They give their employees free food, let them wear whatever the fuck they want, and pay them well. The idea of companies getting more for less is proven false time and time again -- you will just have more people staying under the radar and doing the bare minimum, as the article suggests.
Here's a few tips from personal experience, that I can pass along to corporations:
-- Don't have "End of the Month" meetings congratulating how great the company's 'numbers' were when 99% of the people in attendance gain NOTHING from it, and the 1% who do are the ones trying to "motivate" you to get better numbers for next month.
-- Don't keep on incompetents, people with bad tempers, and just lazy fucking bastards just because they seem to be on a 'tenure' track and have a 'history' with your company. If you are detrimental to the employees in any way, get the fuck out.
-- Offer a Christmas bonus, ever year. I don't care if I got a $10 gift certificate to Walmart, it's the THOUGHT (and yes folks, your parents taught you right) that counts here. To say after a year's work, in a time of holiday and giving, and that you KNOW the managers are getting HUGE bonuses, learn to give a little back to your employees. You have no idea how valuable that $10 may be.
-- Offer advancement, even if it's fake. When I came in as "Janitor" (though I didn't but regardless), and I did a decent job and I earned my whopping (can you feel the sarcasm?) 4% raise, change my title too. I would love to be Janitor Level II -- head of vomit patrol for lavatories 1-4. Granted it was probably my job before but the fact I got a title change makes me feel just a little better.
-- DO NOT EXPECT YOUR EMPLOYEES TO ABANDON THEIR FAMILIES/LIVES TO WORK FOR YOUR SHITTY COMPANY. I cannot stress this enough. I work a 50 hour work week. Unless somebody is about to die, do not call me on the weekend, do not ask me to finish up a project by staying only a half hour more, and learn that "results" are often measured in QUALITY and not QUANTITY of hours. If you stress that you want the best job that your employee can do, but NOT at the expense of their personal lives, then your company will benefit. Because employees will make sure to get their projects done in a timely fashion because they have ALL of the aforementioned 'tips' to look forward to, coming in to another day at work.
-- And lastly, do not believe that YOU, as Management, are worthy of any praise. You are scum because you make boatloads more money than me for a LOT less work. Granted *some* of you worked to get there and some of you did not. As an employee, I don't give a flying fuck and I will always hold that against you. That's not negotiable. Your job as management is to be despised by all employees and looked at with scorn. So don't get mad about it -- just offer what you can to say that at the end of the day, with your fistfulls of cash, you are missing one dollar to give your employees an infinitely better workplace.
But we won't ever stop saying how useless and stupid you are because let's face it dude... you are a fat dumb bastard and we all aspire to be in your position as well.
The price is always right if someone else is paying.
It can be debated whether or not the free trade agreements, etc. have promoted the general welfare.
The key word being "general" there- but yes, you're right. They have not promoted the general welfare (if anything, they've promoted the general poverty for specific welfare) and you're completely right that it's promoted, not provided.
But the general welfare is not provided by the federal government, it is provided by the citizens in the form of commercial activity.
Which has been largely prevented by free trade agreements. How can one possibly have any commercial activity if one cannot compete in one's industry?
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
I tend to agree with many of your points, but not quite *all* of them.
In a relatively "good" job market, sure - there's little to no excuse for someone to keep a "crappy job" that's making them physically ill, etc. But at least in my field (computers and I.T.), the overall market has simply NOT been very "healthy" at all ever since around 2001. I'm not sure I really see any signs of it "recovering" either.
I've been out of work for over 6 months now, and it's not even that often I can find an opening to send a resume to - because businesses are getting more and more demanding about exactly what they're seeking in a candidate. I have close to 15 years of combined experience with computer hardware and support, consulting, purchasing, and troubleshooting. Unfortunately, practically every job I see considers most/all of that "nice stuff to know on the side" while they really want someone who either does software coding of some sort, database administration (with previous experience in SQL, etc.), or experience implementing/supporting very specific appliacations (EG. Peoplesoft or specific CRM type packages). When it's not some combination of those, it's some type of "project manager" or "I.T. Manager" opening - requiring management experience and skills I don't have, because I've spent all my time on the "technical side" of things instead.
My "mish mash" of experience in everything from Linux to Mac OS X to IBM OS/2 Warp to Windows NT 3.51, 4.0 and 2000 server support to "you name it" doesn't amount to a hill of beans to anyone except the "on site computer service" places like Geeksquad or "Computer Nerds" who just want to pay you a lousy $10/hr. or so to drive all over town doing work they bill close to 10x that much for.
Years ago, I could at least get a respectable job as a "support specialist" or possibly even "systems analyst" at a mid-sized company with my skills. But even in the late 90's, these types of jobs were rather sparse. Now, I'm stuck trying to do my own on-site business because I simply can't find employment other than accepting something paying well under 40% of what I used to earn 10 years ago!
Preaching to people about the "need to have healthy relationships" is practically pointless. I *thought* I had one myself several years ago. My marriage ended horribly when my ex turned out to have mental problems that suddenly surfaced (bi-polar, manic depressive, etc.) and on one of her "downer" days, decided it was really all my fault and cleaned out my house, took our daughter, and moved about 5 hours away. Thankfully, all of that mess is pretty much sorted out (divorce finalized, etc.) - but I lost most of what I owned including 2 cars. And though I have primary custody of my daughter now, that also means I have a responsibility to do what it takes to earn money so she gets a decent life here with me. So some boss who lectures me about "over-extending myself" while he sits back and collects a good 2x-3x my salary just to "manage" me isn't going to sit well with me. I'm not some irresponsible drug addict who can't manage my money.... I'm simply busting my ass to do the right thing in a piss-poor economy.
I've worked for both types of employers and I'll pick happiness over pay. I think it follows a pattern though, there are greedy people who find money is the focus of life and there are those that get confused and believe that temporarily but come back to reality.
Two years ago I took a $25,000/year pay cut to change jobs. This was not one of those changes pending a layoff either, I did it when I realized that the rat race was really not worth it. Sixty and seventy hour work weeks, lame project management, foolish executives and the like, it sucks and anyone that believes those are acceptable parameters for an employer to foist, yes foist, upon an employee is a fool.
My advise is find a good company where employee happiness and community responsibility are of primary importance and go for it. You won't regret leaving the rat race and you'll be the envy of your former coworkers who are stuck as wage slaves while you still make a damn fine living while working a normal 40 hour week. Then there's always the side benefit of working for a socially responsibly organization and you can't really put dollars on that.
Democrats and Republicans are like AIDS and Cancer, I want neither!
Ugh- Way to say it- you are 100% for your own happiness.
I had a bad job for a while (It involved high temperatures and getting shot at) and the only thing that I was upset about was not seeing my wife for a year.
I would put up with a lot of cr#p at work for more money- Why? I have a wife and a daughter, and another kid on the way. I have a house payment, 2 car payments and retirement in 40 years to worry about.
I would shovel sh&t all day if it meant that my family could have a higher standard of living.
My guess is how people would answer the question "would you take better work conditions for less money" has a lot to do with age and responsibilities. If I didn't have 2 (soon to be 3) other human beings depending on me, I would be much more ammenable towards taking a pay cut for better work conditions.
If you hate your job, you have a couple choices- You can look for a better job, or you can change your outlook. Here in Ohio, tech jobs aren't easlily available- I make a good living, but I am grateful to be employed. There are a ton of people out there with 100K and more degrees who are under and unemployed.
Life isn't perfect- being an adult is hard.
And All I Ask is a Tall Ship And a Star to Steer Her By
Well, I once knew a girl who wanted to become a lawyer so she could "buy a Porsche". We had something going, but when I heared that, it was an instant no-go. I might be a geek desperate for sex, but I'm not that desperate. She quit school a year later. It's not money that matters, it's passion.
"It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey
I can't change jobs because I've nowhere to go, I'm not qualified to do anything other than unskilled labour. I tried to get an education but I failed it, I'm not clever enough and can't afford it anyway. We're not all geniuses like you, sorry. Some of us have to do the soul-crushing grunt work so you can sit at your cushy office job reading Slashdot.
I don't have kids, I can't afford them. I can't afford a house to live in that can accomodate kids, I can't afford to bring them up properly. I don't want to be a benefit scrounger either. Having children is for people richer than me, just something I'll have to do without.
I'm glad you used the modifier 'most.'
Many programming jobs out there are basically for monkeys. Very little decision making, just a lot of coding.
A lot of us on the other hand get involved with the business aspect of what we do. The 'why's, the 'how's...all of that. When the program manager or programmer is part of the decision making team, it becomes a very skilled and valuable position.
And by the time you reach that level, you don't care about the language you use, the editor you use, the platform, or anything else. You just use whatever will work for the project.
No reason to lie.
People like you always lump all lawyers in together, until its your ass in the Defendants chair.
My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle...
You'd be shocked to find out how many CEO's feel they are the slave. Boards, investors, clients, vendors, family, etc. There is no top of the hill, unless you're prepared for a negative cash flow.
The good jobs will be shipped overseas while all the crappy jobs that suck like service jobs, these will stay
The good jobs, like standing on a production line 10 hours a day doing the same thing over and over and over agin, hoping you don't get too sleepy and have your arm in the hydraulic press when it goes? Maybe you long for the good jobs like working in a coal mine?
Happiness is a state of mind. You can choose to be happy working in Walmart or shoveling asphalt in Death Valley, and you can choose to be unhappy as CEO of Bank of America or even when sitting in your cube hating your job instead of looking for something else to do.
Be your own bully, or be bullied.
Nice. Shocking to find you unhappy...
Most large companies consider employees to be completely interchangeable and replaceable like light bulbs.
That's not to say that all small companies are good, though. Many tech startups have a business plan that requires making their employees work long hours and weekends until they burn out. Avoid those like the plauge. They always tell prospective employees that they will reap big rewards on stock options, and in fact often insist that the employee should accept lower salary and worse benefits in exchange for the options. Don't buy it. Options *might* pay off, but it's a long shot. If they try to sucker you into such a plan, ask them to give you the salary and benefits you want and forget the options. They'll almost never do that, which tells you that their real opinion on the value of their own options is that they are worthless; obviously you shouldn't value them any more highly.
I've had the good fortune to have several enjoyable jobs at small companies, including my current job. At a few of them I did eventually make modest gains on stock options, but not enough for a down payment on a house. Well, maybe a down payment on a house somewhere other than in Silicon Valley.
Well you've discovered a problem. What are your options for getting qualifications?
Would a job in retail or hospitality be a better temporary job?
You can use a computer as well which is a qualification for a data entry position.
You find a better job exactly the same way you found your current job, LOOK. I don't know the job situation in -insertLocation- but I'd be willing to bet that if you spread your contact details around every coffe shop, and retail outlet in range you could probably find another job.
> Ask everyone you know if they know of any places, and whether they can put in a good word for you, go to interviews, try to show your new employers a happier face than the one you're showing here.
from the second part of the article: Detached Concern. Potter defines detached concern as a form of mental control in which personal power is gained by letting go. She suggests that the attachment of one's ideas of how things ought to be can imprison you and make you feel helpless. Focusing on the situation at hand, taking what steps you can to make it better, and letting go of the things you can't control make for a healthier life.
Every time you think you've hit a brick wall, say "Ok, it's pretty messed up. Now what can I do to make it better"
It's not money that matters, it's passion.
This is very true. When I started engineering school, all freshmen had to take some orientation lectures to learn about the profession that is engineering, etc. After going over some starting salaries for engineers, the dean who was lecturing said in closing, "But, no matter what, knowing what you'll make after graduation is not enough to get you through it. I promise you that. If you're here for solely the money, you will not make it. You need to be here because you enjoy it."
"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman
What if you are passionate about porsches. I happen to be.
What if you put yourself through a number of years of school so that you can do porsche club racing. It just happens to be an expensive hobby. I don't agree that you can dismiss the integration of money and passion so easily. Not everybody wants to make a lot of money so they can swing their dick around. Some people want to have certain experiences that require significant amounts of money.
What if you like to travel? What if you like sailing? What if you like giving money to charity?
Yeah, and it always helps if you've had 18 years of six-figure lawyer income to subsidize your cooking.
Excellent point.
We all commend people who give up their high paid high responsability jobs to go play with dolphins or paint landscapes or some other hippy fancy, but how is that any better than the people who decide they don't like living in poverty and work their way into high paying jobs that allow them to give their children financial independance?
I don't care if I'm passionate or not, I want lots of cash so I can play with the fun toys, If I'm good at what I do, then what is it to you if I don't get excited about it?
You can give your family soooo much more than a McMansion and two shiny cars in the driveway. Take them for a walk, teach your kids to throw the ball, play tennis, whatever... In time they'll come to appreciate it much more than sterilized existence in a suburban McHouse. I promise you, I guarantee you they'll appreciate the time with you much more than having marble countertops in the bathroom.
The American society is driven by greed to the point of obsession. The change has to come from within. Be a part of the solution, not a part of the problem.
Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
Excuseme but being a factory worker IS BEING PRODUCTIVE. Factory workers are not well paid because they aren't productive. It's because they can be easily replaced. This is true even if you have a high degree, as long as you can be easily replaced you are going to get the bad wages. So the trick is NOT to make yourself useful, you have to make yourself indispensable.
But... the future refused to change.
France. Germany. Possibly Saudi Arabia. (Really!)
I have had jobs where I had to put up with a lot of crap. The pay was always reasonable, never too crazy. The hours usually sucked, and as a norm most of the first line supervisors were clueles. Since the pay was just reasonable it fell under the "I don't get paid enough for this shit" category, so once these became unbearable, I moved on.
There have also been a couple of jobs that fall under the "damn, I *do* get paid enough to put up with shit." In that case the pay and benefits are a bit higher than usual, so you put up with the crap in the job for as long as you can hack it.
Of course, once in a lifetime you get that one job where you get paid well, people listen to you and you can pretty much get away with murder. Hell, you might even get lucky and end up working for a first line supervisor that is not an idiot. If you are one of the very few lucky bastards in this position, STFU and try to get as much as you want out of it.
Pedro
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The Insomniac Coder
No one said anything about living in poverty. Pursuing some "hippy fancy" doesn't mean that you will be poor, or that you can't afford the standard of living that you want. Not everyone wants the same things. Personally, I would be happy with a moderate house, a reliable vehicle, and a couple decent computers and other modest toys. I don't think that takes much, and I don't much care if I pull down a 6-7 figure salary.
Some people want large salaries and live extravagant lifestyles. Some don't. I don't think either is necessarily better. I do think that some people think that having a lot of money and possessions will make them happy and then find out that isn't the case once they have them.
Maybe I'm just in the minority, but giving my children financial independence is not high on my list of priorities. Such children would probably grow up feeling entitled and not do anything worthwhile with their lives. I'd much rather they work for what they want and know that they earned it themselves. Call me crazy, but I think that's a good thing.
I've seen this post before, and I really think it's a troll. I mean, either that or you seriously need counsoling.
Anyway, I'm a college graduate, and I'll give you some advice from the Career development centers and State Job agencies I've dealt with. Not saying they work, but might be worth a try.
The basic idea is twofold. 1) pick something you want to do more than factory work. Generalize. Maybe you want to be in management, maybe you want to be in IT, maybe you want to be a chef.
Once you've picked what you want to do - lie. Not really, but get damned close.
Say you want to get into management. First, talk about how you are reliable - you come into work every day, you meet quotas, you've suggested improvements in processes on the factory floor.
Second, talk about your other skills - you think you don't have any, but really, you do. Talk about your understanding of office applications - you can obviously use a PC well enough to get online and post to slashdot. You can spin that into using Word, and IE and internet apps.
Then, come up with a plan to get additional skills. Lots can be done online for free, more can be done at seminars and your local employeement office.
With your ability to POST ON SLASHDOT, you can likely leverage that skillset to get into an office - likely doing clerical work.
Anyway, none of this is easy, you do have to work. You have to be willing to stretch the truth quite a bit, and be willing to learn new things - fast!
Many skills are non-obvious, heck, just working for a few years in a factory ought to put you in a position to try and jump to foreman or the like - maybe in a different company though. Always look for openings one step up from where you are in local competitiors.
Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
Comment removed based on user account deletion
One acquaintance of mine is convinced that he's entitled to promotions because he got his ticket punched by getting a degree from a fairly decent school about two decades ago. Since that time, he's shown no initiative at all, and just whines when people he considers inferior to him pass him on the career ladder.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I'm a very materialistic person and most things I buy are long term things that make me very happy. I bought some expensive camera equipment, some expensive woodworking equipment, an expensive computer, an expensive embroidery machine, and some expensive electronics equipment (stuff like an oscilloscope, etc.). Buddha was a sucker.
You may be more enlightened than you think, Grasshopper.
All of the items you mentioned are instruments of creativity, no? It is hardly a sin to take pride in material things, if you built them yourself. Does your pride reside in your woodworking equipment... or in what you can do with it?
Do you see the difference between your "materialism" and that of the guy who can't go to sleep at night without going down to the garage for one last look at the shiny new Hummer in his garage?
My Mother. After Law School, three law degrees, 18 odd years as a lawyer and five as a Judge. She suddenly quit and went to culinary school to become a pastry chef.
Some people can be happy with just a big paycheck and extra letters after their name but mostly they are the minority.
Ah yes, the person who has spent 20+ years working their ass off to save their money to do what they want. It's easy to jump ship and change jobs on a whim when you have the financial security to do so.
I'd be happy with a big paycheck and extra letters after my name for about 5 years. Then I could quit and do whatever I want also.
But on a per capita basis, western Europe's productivity is close to (or possibly exceeding) that of the US. The US just has a lot more people. On an hour-per-hour basis, western Europe is significantly more productive.
Without "wage slaves" civilization as you know it would collapse in less than 3 days. Your post clearly shows a disconnection from the "real world". Maybe your a kid or a troll or a nobleman, I don't really care except to say you need to get a grip and understand that productivity/responsibility is not measured by a persons pay packet (eg: Train driver or the kid with his finger in the dam).
Ego-maniacs should be forced to clean public toilets for a while before taking on a "real job". If the shit doesn't stick to you then you can claim to be a king.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
True, but if one doesn't have sufficient money, one's time on this planet will be greatly reduced.
one of the founding principles of contemporary organizational behaviour theory states that pay is completely independant of employee happiness ... working at Taco Bell for minimum wage might actually be fun
One strongly suspects that the founders of "contemporary organizational theory" have never actually had to try to support themselves and/or their families on minimum wage.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Healthcare has become increasingly expensive, and, unless you and your family don't mind suffering from untreated illnesses, good health insurance, and the money to supplement it if your plan doesn't think you need something, are going to require some serious money
Healthcare is not so unaffordable. Insurance is around $500 month if you buy it yourself. It's cheaper if your employer helps.
Then there's education. Perhaps one of the most important things a parent can provide for their child is a good, solid education. Aside from increasing their earning power, it will allow them to get more interesting, rewarding work as well as provide opportunities for them to meet interesting people. These days even a good State School could cost 15k or 20k, per child, in tuition alone. When you throw in living costs, books, etc. you're talking about serious money. Graduate or Professional school? Throw on another 75 to 120k depending on what your kids want to do.
Slow down, hoss! I paid for my education myself through scholarships, loans and a job. My brother did the same thing with medical school. I think it's good for you to pay for your own education instead of have it handed to you. Don't even start with me about good schools or bad schools. Some of the best guys I've seen have come from schools no one has ever heard of. The fact that they grew up poor has nothing to do with their intelligence or ability. Change your perspective and quit being a snob.
Money is also useful when disaster strikes. Say, for example, your entire city becomes submerged in water and your insurance company screws you.
I don't know about other states, but in Florida, the State will cover you if your insurance company can't (there's a word for what it's called, but you have to get insurance from a company that is "something", and that means the State will step in if necessary). Oh, and if you lived in New Orleans, you had flood insurance, which is useful when your house is submerged in water.
I'm leary of the "give their children financial independance" part. We already have the older generation calling the younger generation "The Entitlement Generation" due to the fact that (in general) young adults seem to feel that they are "entitled" to high pay, less work, all the toys, etc.
It's not JUST the younger generation though. My sister-in-law STRONGLY feels that it's a parent's reponsibility to maximize their childrens inheritance, and vocally enough that her children are fully aware of it, and now expect it.
Me? I'm just the opposite. All a parent SHOULD do is make sure that their children have the education and capability to acheive their OWN financial independance. Anything the parents do beyond that is a "bonus".
Now maybe the child, with his education and drive to work hard, decides to go into a lower paying field to help people, such as becomming a teacher... Then that "bonus" allows them to do so without sacraficing their own future. But if the kid screws around, drops out of school, smokes a lot of pot or whatever, then that child get's NOTHING and deserves NOTHING.