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Pay vs. Happiness

itri writes "A co-worker recently sent me and article about job burnout. Although it's a year old, the points seemed to resonate well with me. The nutshell of the article is that job burnout is caused by lack of the sense of accomplishment, working for a narcissistic boss, and a conflict between the employers and employee's values. Is it really better working for a company that cares about your satisfaction? Are there any companies like that and (more importantly) are they hiring?"

69 of 766 comments (clear)

  1. Its a matter of perspective by BWJones · · Score: 5, Interesting

    With respect to your question, I have to say that you are really responsible for your own happiness and 90% of the employers out there do not really care about it. If they are smart, they would want happy employees, but as society moves more towards a service based economy with pre-produced products, there will be less craftsmanship around and less care for average employees as they can be quickly and easily replaced. So, your task is to find the niche that you can provide a well crafted product that those (like myself) will pay more for. I would say that if you are not happy, then change jobs or change careers or go back to school or start your own business.

    With respect to pay vs. happiness, its a continuum is it not? There are those that would sell their souls to make the monthly payment on their Mercedes. I personally find that repugnant as it goes against my punk DIY ethos, but to each their own. Some folks simply find the job as a means for money to do other things with their life while others enjoy what they do for a living. I personally like to surround myself with people smarter than I am, have a passion for what they do, and treat them well to keep them around. That way, everybody is happy and things get done.

    Incidently, I have three positions I am hiring for:

    1) Board certified neurologist willing to relocate.

    2) Board certified cardiologist willing to relocate.

    You never know, but there are MDs that patrol Slashdot on occasion, so, why not?

    3) Most importantly for this forum: A programmer. Can you program for OS X? Have Cocoa experience? Do you know IDL from RSI? If you answer yes to all three of the above questions, I have a job for you. I have my own stuff to keep me busy and happy so I won't be breathing down your neck. You even get to work from home or the lab, it's your choice, but if you are in the lab, you can have access to an incredibly extensive and diverse shared iTunes library and crank all you want. You can also have all the flexibility you want with the hours, I just want the code done within a reasonable amount of time. This is a contract position and you will find me most accommodating to work with.

    If the meetings I have with the VCs next week go well, I might be hiring programmers with scientific robotics experience. Stay tuned to the Slashdot journal which gets updates from my blog.

    --
    Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    1. Re:Its a matter of perspective by BushCheney08 · · Score: 5, Funny

      but if you are in the lab, you can have access to an incredibly extensive and diverse shared iTunes library and crank all you want.

      Lots of tunes and all the crank I want? Sign me up!

      w

      --
      Be a real patriot: Question authority. Think for yourself. Formulate your own conclusions.
    2. Re:Its a matter of perspective by dogugotw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I've found that I'm happiest when my employer's reason for being fits in with my core belief system. While I don't hold an employer responsible for my happiness, I know that when I'm in sync with my place of employ, I find joy. As my needs, desires, and goals drift away from those of my workplace, the pleasure I derive from working diminishes (and I usually move along).

      For me, I don't want or expect, the employer to stive to make me happy. I want an employer who understands what they do, why they do it, and that they do it well.

      Keep looking, you can find work that is meaningful for you.

    3. Re:Its a matter of perspective by The+Bungi · · Score: 5, Funny
      Board certified neurologist willing to relocate.

      Good thing you're not in the IT industry...

      - "So, you're a neurologist?"
      - "Well, sorta. I play 'Operation' online all the time and I'm really good. I'm also halfway through the Wikipedia article on neurons. So... do I get the position?"

    4. Re:Its a matter of perspective by sTalking_Goat · · Score: 4, Interesting
      My Mother. After Law School, three law degrees, 18 odd years as a lawyer and five as a Judge. She suddenly quit and went to culinary school to become a pastry chef.

      Some people can be happy with just a big paycheck and extra letters after their name but mostly they are the minority.

      --

      My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle...

    5. Re:Its a matter of perspective by BWJones · · Score: 3, Funny

      Your mother is one of my new heros. Seriously.

      --
      Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    6. Re:Its a matter of perspective by ikkonoishi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah the world can always use one less lawyer, and one more chef.

    7. Re:Its a matter of perspective by Alex+P+Keaton+in+da · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ugh- Way to say it- you are 100% for your own happiness.
      I had a bad job for a while (It involved high temperatures and getting shot at) and the only thing that I was upset about was not seeing my wife for a year.
      I would put up with a lot of cr#p at work for more money- Why? I have a wife and a daughter, and another kid on the way. I have a house payment, 2 car payments and retirement in 40 years to worry about.
      I would shovel sh&t all day if it meant that my family could have a higher standard of living.
      My guess is how people would answer the question "would you take better work conditions for less money" has a lot to do with age and responsibilities. If I didn't have 2 (soon to be 3) other human beings depending on me, I would be much more ammenable towards taking a pay cut for better work conditions.
      If you hate your job, you have a couple choices- You can look for a better job, or you can change your outlook. Here in Ohio, tech jobs aren't easlily available- I make a good living, but I am grateful to be employed. There are a ton of people out there with 100K and more degrees who are under and unemployed.
      Life isn't perfect- being an adult is hard.

      --
      And All I Ask is a Tall Ship And a Star to Steer Her By
    8. Re:Its a matter of perspective by Mr2cents · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, I once knew a girl who wanted to become a lawyer so she could "buy a Porsche". We had something going, but when I heared that, it was an instant no-go. I might be a geek desperate for sex, but I'm not that desperate. She quit school a year later. It's not money that matters, it's passion.

      --
      "It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey
    9. Re:Its a matter of perspective by drsquare · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I can't change jobs because I've nowhere to go, I'm not qualified to do anything other than unskilled labour. I tried to get an education but I failed it, I'm not clever enough and can't afford it anyway. We're not all geniuses like you, sorry. Some of us have to do the soul-crushing grunt work so you can sit at your cushy office job reading Slashdot.

      I don't have kids, I can't afford them. I can't afford a house to live in that can accomodate kids, I can't afford to bring them up properly. I don't want to be a benefit scrounger either. Having children is for people richer than me, just something I'll have to do without.

    10. Re:Its a matter of perspective by Louis+Guerin · · Score: 4, Funny

      Irony: Not one major grammatical, spelling or punctuation error in the parent.

      Someone give this man a job.

      L

    11. Re:Its a matter of perspective by drsquare · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm afraid I'm overqualified to be a Slashdot editor.

    12. Re:Its a matter of perspective by sTalking_Goat · · Score: 3, Informative
      But how does she taste with fava beans ?

      I think you're mixing your references.

      A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti. - Hannibal Lecter

      --

      My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle...

    13. Re:Its a matter of perspective by theblueprint · · Score: 5, Informative
      First, why don't you change jobs? Second, why don't you get an education so you can change jobs.

      He's got a point there. I too worked in a factory, and it sucked. I understand that it's hard work and lame pay, but I worked my butt off, moved up the ladder, and now I'm the production manager. I have an office, and it's a decent-paying white collar job.

      An acquantiance of mine asked me for a job. I offered him one in the factory. He was instanly dismissive, despite the fact he has NO education, and no work record to incdicate that he would last more than the first paycheck. He complained that he just "needs someone to give him a sweet job". He was less than pleased when I told him that you have to earn those.

      I'm not implying anthing negative about the gp, but people don't do things for you. That's the "harsh realistic" truth.

      --
      "from the bricks to the booth...I predict the future like Cleo the psychic..."
    14. Re:Its a matter of perspective by The-Trav-Man · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well you've discovered a problem. What are your options for getting qualifications?
      Would a job in retail or hospitality be a better temporary job?
      You can use a computer as well which is a qualification for a data entry position.
      You find a better job exactly the same way you found your current job, LOOK. I don't know the job situation in -insertLocation- but I'd be willing to bet that if you spread your contact details around every coffe shop, and retail outlet in range you could probably find another job.
      > Ask everyone you know if they know of any places, and whether they can put in a good word for you, go to interviews, try to show your new employers a happier face than the one you're showing here.
      from the second part of the article: Detached Concern. Potter defines detached concern as a form of mental control in which personal power is gained by letting go. She suggests that the attachment of one's ideas of how things ought to be can imprison you and make you feel helpless. Focusing on the situation at hand, taking what steps you can to make it better, and letting go of the things you can't control make for a healthier life.

      Every time you think you've hit a brick wall, say "Ok, it's pretty messed up. Now what can I do to make it better"

    15. Re:Its a matter of perspective by pyite · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's not money that matters, it's passion.

      This is very true. When I started engineering school, all freshmen had to take some orientation lectures to learn about the profession that is engineering, etc. After going over some starting salaries for engineers, the dean who was lecturing said in closing, "But, no matter what, knowing what you'll make after graduation is not enough to get you through it. I promise you that. If you're here for solely the money, you will not make it. You need to be here because you enjoy it."

      --

      "Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman

    16. Re:Its a matter of perspective by achesloc · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What if you are passionate about porsches. I happen to be.

      What if you put yourself through a number of years of school so that you can do porsche club racing. It just happens to be an expensive hobby. I don't agree that you can dismiss the integration of money and passion so easily. Not everybody wants to make a lot of money so they can swing their dick around. Some people want to have certain experiences that require significant amounts of money.

      What if you like to travel? What if you like sailing? What if you like giving money to charity?

    17. Re:Its a matter of perspective by 1zenerdiode · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, and it always helps if you've had 18 years of six-figure lawyer income to subsidize your cooking.

    18. Re:Its a matter of perspective by MSBob · · Score: 5, Insightful
      OK. Time to challenge your assumptions. Do you really think your family will be happier because daddy is killing himself over so they can keep up the repayments on the plazma TV, or the second car? Do you think that when you draw your last breath you're going to exclaim "My dear God, I wish I had spent more time at the office!"?

      You can give your family soooo much more than a McMansion and two shiny cars in the driveway. Take them for a walk, teach your kids to throw the ball, play tennis, whatever... In time they'll come to appreciate it much more than sterilized existence in a suburban McHouse. I promise you, I guarantee you they'll appreciate the time with you much more than having marble countertops in the bathroom.

      The American society is driven by greed to the point of obsession. The change has to come from within. Be a part of the solution, not a part of the problem.

      --
      Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
    19. Re:Its a matter of perspective by zombie-m · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No one said anything about living in poverty. Pursuing some "hippy fancy" doesn't mean that you will be poor, or that you can't afford the standard of living that you want. Not everyone wants the same things. Personally, I would be happy with a moderate house, a reliable vehicle, and a couple decent computers and other modest toys. I don't think that takes much, and I don't much care if I pull down a 6-7 figure salary.

      Some people want large salaries and live extravagant lifestyles. Some don't. I don't think either is necessarily better. I do think that some people think that having a lot of money and possessions will make them happy and then find out that isn't the case once they have them.

      Maybe I'm just in the minority, but giving my children financial independence is not high on my list of priorities. Such children would probably grow up feeling entitled and not do anything worthwhile with their lives. I'd much rather they work for what they want and know that they earned it themselves. Call me crazy, but I think that's a good thing.

    20. Re:Its a matter of perspective by jp10558 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've seen this post before, and I really think it's a troll. I mean, either that or you seriously need counsoling.

      Anyway, I'm a college graduate, and I'll give you some advice from the Career development centers and State Job agencies I've dealt with. Not saying they work, but might be worth a try.

      The basic idea is twofold. 1) pick something you want to do more than factory work. Generalize. Maybe you want to be in management, maybe you want to be in IT, maybe you want to be a chef.

      Once you've picked what you want to do - lie. Not really, but get damned close.

      Say you want to get into management. First, talk about how you are reliable - you come into work every day, you meet quotas, you've suggested improvements in processes on the factory floor.

      Second, talk about your other skills - you think you don't have any, but really, you do. Talk about your understanding of office applications - you can obviously use a PC well enough to get online and post to slashdot. You can spin that into using Word, and IE and internet apps.

      Then, come up with a plan to get additional skills. Lots can be done online for free, more can be done at seminars and your local employeement office.

      With your ability to POST ON SLASHDOT, you can likely leverage that skillset to get into an office - likely doing clerical work.

      Anyway, none of this is easy, you do have to work. You have to be willing to stretch the truth quite a bit, and be willing to learn new things - fast!

      Many skills are non-obvious, heck, just working for a few years in a factory ought to put you in a position to try and jump to foreman or the like - maybe in a different company though. Always look for openings one step up from where you are in local competitiors.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    21. Re:Its a matter of perspective by iamlucky13 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Engineering for the money definitely isn't worth it, for two reasons. First, because studying engineering means spending 4+ years absolutely convinced that everyone around you is enjoying life way more than you. Sure I enjoyed the stuff I studied and I'd make the same major decision again if I had to, but it was frustrating nonetheless to watch the girls wander through the dorm at 10 pm on Fridays while writing lab reports. Second, average salaries are a statistic, and statistics have a nasty habit of screwing you over just when probability says they shouldn't. Somehow I managed to finish in the top quarter of my ME class with a math minor and landed a job on contract making $10000 less than the average, no benefits. That's intended to be a case-in-point, not a rant.

      To build on your story, my freshmen physics class started the first semester with around 85 students in it, almost all engineering majors. We pretty quickly started joking about how this class must be designed to weed out the students who shouldn't be engineers, but we didn't think the administration was actually that clever. At the end of the semester, only about 70 students showed up for the final. By the end of the second semester, there were less than 60 left. In retrospect, I still don't think the administration was consciously trying to cull those not oriented towards nerdiness (I did enough extracurricular stuff interacting with them to learn that they genuinely are not that clever), but the nature of the material either killed their intellectual idealism or their grades, probably both, and the rolls of the business, communications, and other "I don't know what I want to do with life" majors started swelling.

    22. Re:Its a matter of perspective by prell · · Score: 3, Interesting
      That reminded me of something I read in a book I have. Apparently it's in another book I've looked at online!:

      There's a favorite letter of mine from a Nobel Prize winner named George Wald, who is a biologist at Harvard. He wrote it in response to an argument about the starting of a Nobel laureate sperm bank. Some irate feminist wrote into the paper saying, "Sperm banks, they should have an egg bank. Why just sperm?" He says:

      You're right, Pauline. It takes an egg as well as a sperm to start a Nobel laureate. Everyone of them has had a mother as well as a father. Say all you want of fathers, their contribution to conception Is really rather small.

      Nobel laureates aside, there isn't much technically in the way of starting an egg bank. There are some problems but nothing so hard as involved in the other kinds of breeder reactors.

      But think of a man so vain as to insist on getting a superior egg from an egg bank. Then he has to fertilize it. And when it's fertilized, where does he go with it, To his wife? "Here, dear," you can hear him saying, "I just got this superior egg from an egg bank and just fertilized it myself. Will you take care of it?" "I've got eggs of my own to worry about," she replies. "You know what you can do with your superior egg. Go rent a womb, and while you're at it, you better rent a room too."

      You see, it just won't work. For the truth is that what one really needs is not Nobel laureates but love. How do you think one gets to be a Nobel laureate? Wanting love, that's how. Wanting it so bad one works all the time and ends up a Nobel laureate. It's a consolation prize.

      What matters is love. Forget sperm banks and egg banks. Banks and love are incompatible. If you don't know that, you don't know bankers. So just practice loving. Love a Russian. You'd be surprised how easy it is, and how it will brighten up your morning. Love whales, Iranians, Vietnamese, not just here but everywhere. When you've gotten really good you can even try loving some of our politicians."
      from: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/jk8p/jk8p_01.htm
    23. Re:Its a matter of perspective by bataras · · Score: 3, Funny

      Is Board Certified Neurologist to you what Microsoft Certified Professional is to us? :)

    24. Re:Its a matter of perspective by indifferent+children · · Score: 3, Funny
      giving my children financial independence is not high on my list of priorities

      Aw, come on! Paris Hilton's father is sooo proud of her. Don't you wish you had a daughter like that?

      --
      Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it. --Mark Twain
    25. Re:Its a matter of perspective by walt-sjc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm leary of the "give their children financial independance" part. We already have the older generation calling the younger generation "The Entitlement Generation" due to the fact that (in general) young adults seem to feel that they are "entitled" to high pay, less work, all the toys, etc.

      It's not JUST the younger generation though. My sister-in-law STRONGLY feels that it's a parent's reponsibility to maximize their childrens inheritance, and vocally enough that her children are fully aware of it, and now expect it.

      Me? I'm just the opposite. All a parent SHOULD do is make sure that their children have the education and capability to acheive their OWN financial independance. Anything the parents do beyond that is a "bonus".
      Now maybe the child, with his education and drive to work hard, decides to go into a lower paying field to help people, such as becomming a teacher... Then that "bonus" allows them to do so without sacraficing their own future. But if the kid screws around, drops out of school, smokes a lot of pot or whatever, then that child get's NOTHING and deserves NOTHING.

    26. Re:Its a matter of perspective by fafaforza · · Score: 3, Informative

      The problem with large paychecks is that the more you make, the larger you live. You take out a larger mortgagte on a bigger home. You buy that luxury car to keep up with the other members of the country club. You eat better. You buy more clothes. The same goes for someone moving from making 30k to 50k. So it might be easy to assume she amassed a great wealth, but you'd probably be surprised how much liquid assets she actually had when she switched tracks.

  2. Burnout. by Captain+Scurvy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Thoreau said, "A man is only as rich as the number of things he can let alone." Who cares how much money you make if you're so swamped you can't enjoy it? I am considering a career change for this very reason. Life's too flipping short.

    1. Re:Burnout. by dada21 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ah, but money in this case has two defining factors:

      1. Is it liquid cash available to you, debt free?
      2. Do you have any debt burdens that will reduce your income in the future?

      I believe having debt is a key element in job burn out, as it is a key element that scares people into thinking they need their current job.

      Even saving just 10% of your gross income should reduce your stress levels a thousand-fold. And give your wife even more reasons to have sex with you :)

    2. Re:Burnout. by The+Good+Reverend · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Money is undoubtedly important.

      But it's not everything.

      I think the point of the article and many of the posts here is that we've been taught a "work hard, earn a lot, spend a lot" ethic, and that clearly doesn't work for everyone. Just about everyone needs to work in order to pay their bills, but if I had the choice between a new car if I worked 2 extra hours a day for a year, I'd never do it. My time is WAY to valuable to me. I certainly need my job (which I love), but more importantly, I need my own time.

      OT, be wary of any woman who'll "do anything" for your money. The "your" part might not be important...

    3. Re:Burnout. by mattbee · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'll see your quote and raise you another quote by actor Michael Caine: "The idea that money doesn't buy you happiness is a lie put about by the rich, to stop the poor from killing them".

      --
      Matthew @ Bytemark Hosting
    4. Re:Burnout. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'll tell you who cares... my wife. She cares a lot about how much money I make. That's one reason she has sex with me

      there are a lot of women who walk the streets at night downtown who are like that.

    5. Re:Burnout. by varmittang · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I guess the wedding vows didn't have, "for richer or poorer" in them for you.

      Yes I agree money is needed, but if keeping your family happy needs lots of money, you might be spoiling them. As for having money to have financial security in helping to raise a family, that would be the only reason why I would stay in a job I hate while I look for something else.

      --
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    6. Re:Burnout. by Zakabog · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I hope you're not serious but...

      I'll tell you who cares... my wife. She cares a lot about how much money I make. That's one reason she has sex with me. Money makes her feel comfortable and secure. So comfortable that she'll do anything to keep me around... and I mean anything. And, I like that.

      So what you're saying is that your wife doesn't love you, but you make her feel comfortable and secure so she'll do anything to keep you around? And do you know poor people have sex too? Quite a bit more than rich people, I hear that's been going on for many many years. It has some thing to do with two people enjoying sex, coming together, liking each other, thinking the other person is attractive or whatever, and somehow they end up having sex. Money doesn't usually enter it unless the person is shallow and just looking for money, then it becomes important.

      The parent was trying to say that if you can't enjoy your money, it's not worth having, obviously you have time to do things you want to do (like have sex with your wife, or whatever else you might do.) And your friend used his money to buy cigarettes and use them to bribe people. His point was that if you spend all your time working, then you'll have no time to enjoy the money you've earned.

    7. Re:Burnout. by Proc6 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wow. +Insightful? This has to be a Troll. Maybe a few more years on this planet will wake you up to the fact that the "happiness" of a Land Rover is shallow and fleeting. That how many "toys" you buy for your kids is not a gauge of your parenting quality, (though I'm sure they appreciate them as a poor replacement for their absent father who's out making more money). And someday you'll wake up and realize the only person more shallow and consumer-society engineered than yourself is your prostitute wife. (Sex for money, right?)

      --

      I'm Rick James with mod points biatch!

    8. Re:Burnout. by Monoman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You seem to be confusing hapiness with pleasure. It is a common mistake in today's "modern" societies.

      Pleasure is a short run thing and is often materialistic. Hapiness is priceless.

      --
      Keep the Classic Slashdot.
    9. Re:Burnout. by evil-osm · · Score: 5, Funny

      2. Do you have any debt burdens that will reduce your income in the future?
       
      See wife in previous post

      --


      E.

      Never rub another man's rhubarb - The Joker
    10. Re:Burnout. by andreyw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're an idiot. You just basically stated that your whole ``relationship'' with your ``wife'' depends on your earning power, not on some particular interest in each other, compatibility, w/e. I know it sounds awful, but I do hope you go broke, just so your ``loving wife'' leaves you for someone driving a Porsche, leaving you alone to realize that you've been a complete tool your whole life.

      I sure as hope my (future) family isn't as caring about each other as yours. Pray to God that you don't become disabled, sick or afflicted with some serious crippling disease, because your whole ``loving family'' sure as hell won't be there, unless there is a will involved...

  3. Burn out at work is not always work related! by dada21 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have to say that this article makes me feel crazier than I normally do.

    With so many people out of work, it seems almost like biting the hand that feeds you to complain about your work conditions and expect your employer to care. Your employer's role is to provide work for you. Your job is to do that work. The employer should "care" in order to make you the most efficient you can be, but it is not their job to make sure you don't have other life ills that may cause you to take on more than you can handle. All my employees who have burned out in the past were replaced by people who accepted more pressure, more time constraints, and more deadlines without burning out. Those who burned out with me had burned out in the past and continue to burn out to this day. There are many reasons why they've burned out, and few of them had anything to do with the job.

    Job burnout has more to do with the lack of appreciation and reward an employee receives for his or her efforts than an increased work load. NO. Job burnout has more to do with the fact that the employee sacrifices himself for a crappy job, why? Maybe because he's in terrible debt! Get your finances in order, and you can walk away from ANY bad job. Never tell me you NEED your job because of financial struggle. Maybe his girlfriend is a manic depressive freak who constantly pulls him away from his other responsibilities. Maybe he's got a habit that he can't kick, or he's got some baggage that makes him want to succeed no matter what. You made your bed, sleep in it.

    Those suffering from job burnout feel no sense of accomplishment from and no control over their work lives. So walk away. Start your own company. SAVE. The Chinese are saving up to 40% of their income. The Americans are now saving 1%, 30% of all mortgages lately are interest-only. Why are you stressed: job or real life?

    Today to get ahead and save for a reasonable retirement, workers often must hop from company to company to get a promotion. Ahhh! The average employee puts almost 15% of his income away in Social Security that he knows he will never see! How about if he put 15% of his income into his own house, savings account, vacation, or whatever? How much happier would he be? Do NOT say that employers are responsible for YOUR retirement. What are we teaching our next generation? That is it someone else's responsibility to take care of us in our old age.

    Everyone is expendable, thanks to many employers' short-term, economic goals. I've run 7 businesses in the 15 years I've been in business. ALL of them had long-term goals, but I also realized that a LOT of my employees would be short term as they learned from me and found someone willing to pay the more. The wonderful free market allows people to do this. Those I invested the most in I had the most reason to pay better and give better fringe benefits to. Those who left because someone was willing to pay more than me found themselves in a better position. Those that complained I wasn't paying enough were not worth more to me, and not worth more to anyone else either it seemed.

    The job conflicted with my values. I was mentally and physically exhausted and suffered from chronic stomach problems. Oh, I didn't realize this guy was forced to keep this job. Did his employer put a gun to his head? Did he have absolutely no other options to get a job? Did he really LIKE the pain it caused him?

    Not dealing with a burned-out employee can undermine your organization's health and lead to a burnout epidemic. In the free market this is called "bankruptcy" and rarely has to do with employee's health. When all your employees are getting burned out, it is likely that the business was failing in many other areas.

    It is very important to realize that there are MANY reasons why people burn out in work, in relationships, in friendships, in life in general. To blame employers for this VERY complex situation is ridiculous, and I believe t

    1. Re:Burn out at work is not always work related! by dada21 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When did I say you don't need a job? I just mentioned you can SWITCH jobs.

      I'm 31. I can live stress-free on $10 per hour. But I like toys so I work harder. When I get close to feeling stressed, I cut back on work, which means cuts back on toys. But if you buy toys on credit, expect there to be no easy way to cut back on the stress that will likely follow.

  4. Let Steve explain! by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 5, Funny

    Is Steve Ballmer rich? WAY YES! But is he happy? Oh no wait, Steve, get that chair down HEEEEELP!!!

  5. Maslows Hierarchy of Needs by cjkinniburgh · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Maslow's hierarch of needs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_o f_needs) would say that a job can, over time, satisfy an employees physiological needs and safety, however, once these demands are met with money, an employer will look upwards in the hierarchy to love and belonging, and see that he could be doing better. I think that this is what happens, people see that once they are 'safe' from their basic needs, they look to expand both their emotions and themselves as individuals. People wish to do as well as they can, and doing so they look up the pyramid, leading them to change jobs, even if this produces a pay cut, as long as the pay cut allows them to live without any hardship.

    1. Re:Maslows Hierarchy of Needs by rainman_bc · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a commonly misunderstood theory. It's about motivation. You can't expect someone to do something for self actualization, when safety need isn't being met. He theorizes that in order to have self-actualization as a motivator, you need to first fulfill physiological, safety, belongingness, esteem etc... A employee who cannot meet physiological needs will not be motivated by esteem needs. Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a motivation theory. Of course, Alderfer's ERG theory is also important to examine.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    2. Re:Maslows Hierarchy of Needs by DarkSarin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      As the sibling post points out, Maslow's Hierarchy of needs is a motivation theory. As someone (psychologist in training--only 2 years to PhD), who studies motivation as their primary area of expertise, allow me to be the one who says that as a theory of motivation, it is woefully inadequate and outdated. There are valid points to it, yes, but generally speaking, it stinks.

      From a graduate paper I wrote about burnout, I will state that what I remember indicates that burnout is a result of feelings of inefficacy, and inability to change the current situation. Thus, from an organizational behavior point of view, its simply the state where motivation to work approaches (but never reaches) zero. Note that motivation is a directed behavior, not an attitude. Certainly there is a set of emotions and feelings associated very strongly with that behavior, but motivation is most accurately described as a behavior (specifically the allocation of time and energy toward a specific task).

      Burnout is awful. It is real. Employers can, and should*, do things to prevent it. Those who suffer from burnout should be given access to resources and activities that will relieve that burnout.

      *This is what most employers get wrong. Leaving aside such fuzziness as "good corporate citizenship" and similar ideas, burned out employees cost money. They are inefficient, and the chances are that their replacements will burn out as well as costing money and time to train properly. Hiring new employees is often as expensive or more expensive as reviving and helping your current ones. I won't make an ethical argument here, although one exists, and shouldn't be ignored, because I know that the managers want a financial/business related reason to do things. This is utility analysis (something I am becoming more interested in).

      --
      "We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)
  6. Love what you do by The+Bungi · · Score: 5, Insightful
    It's that simple. If you wake up every morning and think "wow, I'm pumped up to get to work because I love the stuff I do" then you'll always be happy. It doesn't matter if you're writing software or doing landscaping, and it doesn't matter how much money you make at it.

    Of course you can love what you do and still burnout due to bad leadership, bad environments, crappy salary, etc. But when you already love what you do you know exactly what you want and you know what to shoot for. There are many people out there who don't even know what they want to do.

    So the trick is just to find a good place to do what you really love. Everything else falls into place after that. The world is a big place. Unless your specialty is the study of the mating habits of the black-striped vampire burrowing ferret that only lives in a remote region of Mongolia, you usually have choices about jobs.

  7. "Yes, but", and "Yes, and" by Tackhead · · Score: 4, Interesting
    > Is it really better working for a company that cares about your satisfaction? Are there any companies like that and (more importantly) are they hiring?

    Yes, but:

    Yes, but - a company that cares about your satisfaction is necessary, but not sufficient. You're partially responsible for your own satisfaction. The company can only provide you an environment in which your work is meaningful, and with bosses who aren't asshats. Some companies fail to suck, but if you keep that "I show up, I hide for 8 hours a day, I get nothing done, and they still pay me" mentality, you're not going to enjoy it any more (or any less) than working at your last job.

    Yes, and:

    Yes, and - they do exist. And they're often hiring. They're everywhere, but they're usually small companies, and you wouldn't know about them unless you knew people already working there.

    So, what to do:

    Network. In other words, do the same thing you ought to be doing every night, Pinky. Ask your friends who's worth signing up with as part of your plan to try to take over the world.

  8. Nope- no companies hiring that can afford to care by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    RTFA-Even the most enlightened, caring employers are facing conditions that can lead to employee burnout. Bob Kerr, Innotec Stainless operations manager and Welding Wire subscriber, wrote, "I hope that as a follow-up to the replies you receive from burned-out welders, you can remind them that their employer's constant efforts to increase productivity while decreasing costs are also an effort to compete in an increasingly competitive market. If the employer cannot compete successfully utilizing domestic labor, he is either forced to offshore or close shop. Therefore, it is in the best interest of each employee to strive for higher personal productivity. As Americans, we tend to forget that we are indeed competing in an increasingly smaller world."

    In other words, between the Clintonista Democrats and the Reganites and Bushies, we've signed too many free trade agreements for employers to actually be able to compete *and* care about their employees. So the second gets left in the dust because the federal government can't be bothered with the duties of the common defense and providing for the general welfare.

    --
    SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  9. 40 - average workweek by rd4tech · · Score: 5, Insightful

    From my humble experience, these guidelines help with the subject of the article
    1. Be at work 10 minutes before time
    2. Leave on time or up to 5 minutes after.
    3. Don't do overtimes unless it's happening at most once a week and it's paid.
    4. Have your own strong principles and be professional, do what you are paid for, but keep in mind rule number 2.
    5. When a 'funny' new idea/feature/concept is about to be discussed and possibly implemented, don't go nuts over it. Stay calm, state your view, sit down and shut up. The last part is important because regardless of the undesirability of the idea, if your boss wants it to be implemented, you'll have no choice anyway. Instead of being stressed out, refer to rule 2 and 6.
    6. Once work hours ends, forget everything until the next day regardless of the pressure. Work isn't your personal life.
    7. Remember that people treat you the way you've allowed them to do.

    If you still don't agree with me, do read:
    workweek
    Average work week in manufactoring

  10. Burnout/hardwork by QuantumRiff · · Score: 5, Interesting
    There is bound to be several threads here about how hard work is important, and those that complain are lazy, and want instant gratification. Let me just point out, that back in the day, you worked hard, put in insane hours, and got promoted. It was not unheard of to go from entry level to corporate VP. However, in the last decade, things have changed.. excuse me while I badly paraphrase Office Space "they're going to lay you off and hire interns, so that lumburg's stock will go up a quarter of a point" If you read the article, it also talks about employee dedication being offset by managements short term goals..

    I work government, and while I do like my job, there is no real point in my putting in insane hours. Because in government, everyone has to be treated equally. I work about 45 hours a week, busy all day (and reading slashdot!). If we do raises, everyone gets a 2% raise, or x amount a year. Everyone. Even the people that sit around all day surfing the web. There is no reward for me implementing a system wide VOIP system in 1 month from brainstorm to going live. There is no incentive for me to put in tons of work, except for my own satisfaction, and resume building.

    --

    What are we going to do tonight Brain?
  11. Re:Burn-out is common with Linux Admins by HermanAB · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Oh man, you are so disconnected with the real world - i don't think you have ever installed Linux - not in the last 5 years anyway.

    Windows is only easy to maintain because everybody get so much practise fixing it all the time...

    --
    Oh well, what the hell...
  12. Keep your sanity by nuggz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Good advice.
    Do your job, be professional, avoid getting into that other stuff.

    I enjoy my job, it's a good job. I take pride in my work, I do a good job.

    I leave on time, and leave work at the office, generally.

    I rarely take work home, and I try not to travel on weekends. I'm fair to the company and they're (so far) fair to me. It helps I've got a reasonable boss who believes in that balance results in better long term performance. Many other supervisors I've seen are less balanced in his approach, their people work more, but don't seem to be any more successful, and their turnover is higher.

    Makes you think.

  13. Re:Obligatory - Work for Yourself by tktk · · Score: 4, Funny
    I've only ever been happy contracting. Get in, get the job done, get out. Get paid twice as much. Establish business identity, take advantage of tax deductions. Very nice way to go. Must be motivated though and willing to SAVE money for the inevitable dry spells.

    Get in, get the job done 6 months late, get out. Get called back constantly because you did a poor job.

    My apologies if you're not a building general contractor.

  14. Answer to your question by bernywork · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Is it really better working for a company that cares about your satisfaction? Are there any companies like that and (more importantly) are they hiring?

    Yes, yes, and just to add it another time for good measure YES!

    Job satisfaction is a huge one on my priority list, it should be on your employers list, but most of the time it won't be. It's a shame that it works this way, but that's life I guess. I am self motivated normally because what I do the people who I work for can see the benefits of what I am trying to do. I also have a very good working relationship with them so if I need money for budgets or someone out of my way to do things, it's all very easy to organise. This means when I have to work two or three weeks straight and pull 12 - 14 hours days for that period I know that taking time off afterwards to see family / friends won't even be questioned. Anything else that I need during that time will also be taken care of without question too.

    It all comes down to the person / people who you report to, some people just aren't adept at keeping people happy by doing all those little things that keep staff. Most of the time, it's usually other members who care more and make your boss do things. I know that I bought a lot of alcohol (Bottles of wine, champagne) pens and other small gifts for staff. I managed to get one of our staff members sent away to a resort with one of her friends for a weekend away after finishing a project.

    A lot of the time I find it's all about the relationship you have with the people that you report to, if you can see them as friends and they respect you for what you are doing, then all problems seem to fade away. If you are consistently not seeing eye-to-eye on things, I would definitely move somewhere else.

    Just to let you know as well, from having managed teams before, and people that have been unhappy and going to leave, the company policy before was just to give them a pay rise and that would make them stay. Only problem with that is none of the issues about WHY that person is unhappy have been resolved. In two or three months they will want to leave again. Usually it comes down to job appreciation and giving them challenges to keep them thinking. If you do this I have seen people work for a lot less because they actually enjoy their work. When people are happy it's very very easy to correlate between their performance at work as well.

    Employers like this do exist, but it's just a case of finding them. I would find out what makes you happy and ask questions about this in your interviews to see if the company that you could be working for is really what you are after.

    --
    Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat. -- Author unknown
  15. What's that old saying? by rbochan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees

    --
    ...Rob
    The American Dream isn't an SUV and a house in the suburbs; it's Don't Tread On Me.
  16. Left the US, and loving it! by Anubis333 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I would like to say that I left the USA and went to work for one of the best Game Developers in the EU: and I f*cking love this company. They seem to honestly care about the workers. We get ~25 days paid vacation, and OT is compensated with paid vacation days. (which is unheard of in the US) When they wanted to make a move to a larger city, they actually polled the workers to determine which city to move to! Sure, it's a Game Developer, so we stay long hours to finish things for deadlines, but it's so much nicer when you are working on a Sunday, being compensated; you get an email asking what you would like for lunch, and the CFO later walks around handing out ice cream bars to people saying "thanks for coming in on sunday, we will try to only ask you to come in on weekends when it is really needed." It really makes me want whats best for the company as a whole, and I would stay longer hours and work harder to make a better game and do better for the company I enjoy working at.

  17. Weigh your values carefully by chia_monkey · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I just came across a proposition to change my career yet again. When I was in Philly (ick) I was installing wifi all around the country. I dug the hell out of it but I really missed everything Santa Cruz, CA had to offer me. So I quit what I was doing and moved out to the west coast. I still had my consulting company out here but it wasn't a steady paycheck and bringing me the big bucks.

    So here I am in CA, doing tech support for the courthouse (we let our consulting company slowly fold as my biz partner headed off to law school and I sought a bit more stability). I get to ride my bike to work every day (about 10 miles each), have great weather, good people all around, the ocean here, the mtns, etc. However, just recently I was offered the chance to do the wifi stuff again with a 50% raise. I pondered it for about a week and realized it wasn't a lifestyle I wanted. 50% wasn't enough to travel all the time, have instability, won't get to ride all the time, etc. Paying the bills would be awesome, but it's just not worth the sacrifice. Apply this to all your job decisions and man...it's interesting what you can come up with.

    --

    "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts...for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang
  18. Re:Suck it up... by TeknoHog · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Save as much as you can, and when you can afford it, retire. Life isn't about 'being happy now' it's about playing the game right, so one day you can tell everyone to fuck-off and then go and 'be really happy'.

    I disagree completely. I'm trying to lead a really happy life right now, instead of planning to do it after 30 years of misery. In a way I've told the whole capitalist rat race to fuck off many years ago.

    The idea you talk about is the whole Christian work ethic once again, with retirement as the blissful afterlife. There are other, IMHO better ways to live your life.

    --
    Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  19. After a long career, I now find myself... Happy! by jht · · Score: 5, Informative

    Basically, here's the roughly-a-paragraph version of my career, followed by what I do now:

    Started mid-'80s with minor tech jobs and tech/sales jobs for crappy, now out-of-business retailers (Egghead, ComputerTown, etc.). Got hired by a customer to be their admin, spent 6 utterly frantic, insane years there. I worked at all hours of the day and night, dealt with issues constantly, but I was well-paid, respected, and treated well. I loved it. Went to another job as IT manager for an insurance company, paid a lot more money. Loved it and the people, until we were sucked in by a much bigger insurance company. Their strategic plan for us involved firing half the employees and turning it into a branch office. Lost my job there as one of the first overboard (I was management, after all) in mid-'03 after 5+ years - the first 3 solving problems and running operations, the last two having conference calls with my new boss in Minnesota.

    After that thoroughly disheartening experience with The System, I decided to give being my own boss a shot. I hung out my shingle in the spring of '04, and managed to eke out a living for the first year. Now, I wouldn't say my success is assured and I'm not making the kind of bank I used to, but I'm really busy, making a good living, and I love my job. My customers are actually grateful for my work, and they trust me to help steer them in the right directions. The experience I had is a real asset for them. And even if this doesn't work out in the long term, I've learned a lot about myself, learned a lot about business, and gotten the chance to actually use all the tech skills I've piled up over the years instead of rotting from the neck up as a PHB.

    The downside? Some weeks I can't find enough hours in the week to do everything, some weeks I hear crickets chirping when I sit in my office. And today was supposed to be a family day to go to a museum with my wife and son, but instead I had to finish a proposal in the morning, and then get called in to a customer about a half-hour from here to fix a server whose power supply had failed (installed before my time and soon to be replaced). But you know - it wasn't too bad. Because the proposal is for a nice bit of business, and that didn't take too long. And the other customer knew that I was giving up my personal time to help and they genuinely appreciated it. And appreciation is something that is often sorely lacking in the salaried, 9-5 world. Crises like that don't happen often, and it just happened to be today.

    So basically I'm saying that if you want to be happy, consider working for yourself. It's a much better life (at least for me), and it's nice to at least have some measure of control again. The worst case is you'll learn something in failing. The best case is you get to really be in charge of your career.

    --
    -- Josh Turiel
    "2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
  20. Re:On "blaming the employer" .... by dada21 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Our lives sound almost identical (I just never had a kid).

    Yet how often were you trying to keep up with the Joneses?  A $60k a year job should eastily support a family of 4 if you start planning early.  I'm 31 and want a kid badly but I can't do it until I'm worth about double of my current value.

    IT is dying, you're right.  Horse-shoers disappeared, too.  IT is a commodity today.  I'd recommend moving possibily, or considering starting a business, but both are hard.

    I _hate_ that so many mistakes people make are societal.  Go to school.  Spend 28% of your gross income on a mortgage.  Buy a big new car and big new TV.  Eat out.  Drink $7 martinis.  Go on expensive vacations.  Have a $50,000 wedding.

    Life takes planning, saving, and caution.  We used to know this as a society but now its all debt, debt, debt.

    16 year olds, listen and learn:

    1. Until you're 25, save every penny possible.
    2. Never rent or lease.
    3. Get one credit card for gas, insurance and groceries. Pay 100% monthly.
    4. Never get a college loan.
    5. Never buy new cars or clothes.
    6. Socialize at private parties with friends who live like you.
    7. Work your first jobs at small companies.  Trade good pay/benefits for actual positive, marketable experience.
    8. Buy a trailer or condo for cash.
    9. Marry once you own your family home, debt free.  Watch your girlfriend for a dark side.  Stability in spending habits and emotions is key.

  21. Re:Nice Try... by bigman2003 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm glad you used the modifier 'most.'

    Many programming jobs out there are basically for monkeys. Very little decision making, just a lot of coding.

    A lot of us on the other hand get involved with the business aspect of what we do. The 'why's, the 'how's...all of that. When the program manager or programmer is part of the decision making team, it becomes a very skilled and valuable position.

    And by the time you reach that level, you don't care about the language you use, the editor you use, the platform, or anything else. You just use whatever will work for the project.

    --
    No reason to lie.
  22. Why should you.. or anyone care?: Slave Mentality. by Generalisimo+Zang · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What does it matter what the GDP of your nation is?

    If the nation's GDP goes up an extra 1%, do you get a dividend check for your share of the difference?

    If the nation's GDP goes up 3% will you suddenly become more handsome, grow a larger penis overnight, and get a 20 point IQ boost?

    Unless you're getting an equal and/or fair share of the increase in GDP, then crowing about how "GDP has gone up!!!11one" is simply a slave mentality... you're somehow happy that your masters who control the economy made some more profit, even though you'll get none of the fruits of that increase.

    If you've got a 35-hour workweek, 6 weeks of paid vacation every year, free healthcare, free schooling through Bachelor's-level for your kids, and a guaranteed old-age pension.... would you give it all up so you could live in a country that had a slightly higher GDP????

    Are you insane? What on god's green earth effect will a higher GDP have on your own personal life experience??

  23. Re:I think its the opposite. High pay = house slav by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Either way you'll have a boss unless you are the CEO in which case you are the slave master.

    You'd be shocked to find out how many CEO's feel they are the slave. Boards, investors, clients, vendors, family, etc. There is no top of the hill, unless you're prepared for a negative cash flow.

    The good jobs will be shipped overseas while all the crappy jobs that suck like service jobs, these will stay

    The good jobs, like standing on a production line 10 hours a day doing the same thing over and over and over agin, hoping you don't get too sleepy and have your arm in the hydraulic press when it goes? Maybe you long for the good jobs like working in a coal mine?

    Happiness is a state of mind. You can choose to be happy working in Walmart or shoveling asphalt in Death Valley, and you can choose to be unhappy as CEO of Bank of America or even when sitting in your cube hating your job instead of looking for something else to do.

    Be your own bully, or be bullied.

    Nice. Shocking to find you unhappy...

  24. it can come true-here's my story... by mojoNYC · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Here's my story, in the hope that somebody will read it, and may be influenced to take a leap...

    briefly, I started as a graphic designer and production artist in 1990, first working for a manufacturer, then going on my own for a couple of years--my computer skills have been valuable because I learned the technical aspects of print production, rather than just making pretty layouts--in the mid 90s, I started learning web design and multimedia (Director) --wanting to be my own boss, I started a small design biz and went on my own--during this time, I had my own clients, as well as doing freelance work inside many top ad and marketing agencies in Minneapolis. then, I went to work for a homegrown ad agency, who was actually pretty good to work for, with lots of perks, but also having to put up with typical client BS.

    by 2000 i'd had enough, and moved to New York City, to get an advanced degree, learning multimedia art + design, and to see how i'd match up with the best. I was freelancing while going to school, which went fine at first, and then slowly dissipated with the dotcom bubble burst, finally falling on 9-11, which I saw from my classroom window. the next year and a half were spent trying to work out of this--I actually got a job at a remaining dot-com, but the founder split with the last 600k, and I was out of a job a week after I was hired...at this point, my rent wasn't being paid, much less my bills or student loans--also, I'd exhausted any credit I had, or even friends or parents to help me pay my bills--i was on my own, with no income and few prospects (freelance rates dropped through the floor at this time, and the competition became ever more fierce). bankruptcy was imminent...

    I still kept my work studio, though, because I found I *needed* to keep working--the silver lining is that with commercial work nonexistent, I could work on my own projects--I distinctly remember waking up to go to the studio being flat broke, knowing that the financial world was closing in on me. strangely, I felt free and ok with this, becausee even though I wasn't being paid, I was going to go and work on my stuff, because that's what I do.

    just when things were at their lowest, I met my future wife--she's European, and from a family of artists (and she's a geek;>--we fell in love and got married, and most of my concerns were eliminated...because my wife's father (who died when she was young) left her some money, I am able to work without having to submit to the most lucrative job--I teach interactive multimedia design and spend the rest of my time working on my own projects. Next year, I will be releasing my own creative work, (hopefully in conjunction with a major event that I am working on being a part of), while continuing to teach, and spend time with my beautiful (geek) wife...

    what's the point? Surely, I got incredibly lucky, however, that luck came after I stayed true to my own self, and pursued my dream--I was willing to take less, and put in more, in order to pursue my dream, and in the end, it came back to me a thousandfold--before that, however, I gave up a steady job, where I made good money, but got very little satisfaction putting together schlock work for anybody willing to pay.

    lots of people would trade places with me now, but which nobody would have done 2 1/2 years ago--I do believe that it was my willingness to stick it out to the bitter end that got me this far--that's the message that I want to send out--you *can* make your dreams come true, if you want them bad enough--they will never turn out quite like you expect in the beginning, but you can see it clearly, looking back...

    corporations are like casinos--they may pay you some coin, but they'll take your heart and soul in return--I can't blame anybody who takes a corporate job to feed themselves and their families, however, it's always a tradeoff, and make no mistake, they take as much of your heart and soul as they can. In return, many of the things that you think you need are actually modern 'convenien

  25. Software Engineer --- Marine Aviator by eggmit · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In 2004, I left a job as a software engineer to join the Marines as a Naval Flight Officer (think Goose from Top Gun). I was making good money ($70k 1 year out of college), had flexible hours, and had a great working environment (awesome boss and several friends), but it just wasn't satifying me.

    Now as a 2nd Lieutenant with 1 year of service, I make the equivalent of $42k (tax adjusted) and am loving it. The money is more than enough for everything I want & need.

    The only thing I miss is how academic & intellectual everyone was back at my job in the civilian world. Don't get me wrong; the people here are smart, but it's more in terms of technical proficiency and quick thinking. Running my own programming business on the side seems to satisfy that need, though.

  26. We all got a price by pvera · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I have had jobs where I had to put up with a lot of crap. The pay was always reasonable, never too crazy. The hours usually sucked, and as a norm most of the first line supervisors were clueles. Since the pay was just reasonable it fell under the "I don't get paid enough for this shit" category, so once these became unbearable, I moved on.

    There have also been a couple of jobs that fall under the "damn, I *do* get paid enough to put up with shit." In that case the pay and benefits are a bit higher than usual, so you put up with the crap in the job for as long as you can hack it.

    Of course, once in a lifetime you get that one job where you get paid well, people listen to you and you can pretty much get away with murder. Hell, you might even get lucky and end up working for a first line supervisor that is not an idiot. If you are one of the very few lucky bastards in this position, STFU and try to get as much as you want out of it.

    --
    Pedro
    ----
    The Insomniac Coder
  27. I've seen worse. by jcr · · Score: 3, Insightful

    One acquaintance of mine is convinced that he's entitled to promotions because he got his ticket punched by getting a degree from a fairly decent school about two decades ago. Since that time, he's shown no initiative at all, and just whines when people he considers inferior to him pass him on the career ladder.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  28. Re:Why should you.. or anyone care?: Slave Mentali by BenjyD · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My girlfriend gets 37.5hrs/week flexitime, 5 weeks holiday, 'free' healthcare (actually National Insurance for ~£50/month, IIRC), a guaranteed state pension and got free education to Bachelors level (although that's changed now) in a junior admin position in the UK. I'm self-employed in the UK, but work entirely for a German company, so I see how well they treat their workers too.

    I think the continental European countries do take the Socialist thing a bit far, but good working conditions aren't as bad for the economy as some Americans seem to think.

  29. Re:Why should you.. or anyone care?: Slave Mentali by infolib · · Score: 4, Informative
    It could be Denmark:
    37-hour week, though many people put quite a bit more than that in their jobs.
    5 weeks of paid holiday. (And a few "extras")
    Free schooling through masters level (M.Sc.). You have to get good grades to get into popular studies like humanities, medicine etc. though. Students receive a government grant (not to be repaid) of about $600/mo.
    Guaranteed old age pension. I'd recommend topping it off with your own savings though.

    OTOH, there's a 180% (one hundred and eighty!) tax on cars, VAT is 25% and if you hit upper middle class income you'll pay about two thirds of your last earned krone in income tax..
    Not to mention that even with a well-paying job, the guy flipping burgers isn't that far behind you on the scale. This is of course reflected in the price of your fries.

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
  30. Not sure we're much alike at all, then.... by King_TJ · · Score: 3, Interesting

    For starters, I've never had a $60K a year job. I've certainly done work where you'd assume or expect that's what I was paid, but actually - more like around $48K was about the most I've seen (and not for quite some time, at that!).

    Also, by the mere fact that I do have a kid, almost *everything* changes. For starters, there are a number of jobs I've had to skip over applying for because working in rotating shifts was one of their requirements. (How can you find someone who will take care of a 3 year old for you when you're alternating working mornings, days, and late nights every month or two?) In fact, even "overtime" is extremely troublesome for me, since I have to pick my kid up from daycare no later than 6PM each day. I don't have the option of just "agreeing to work late" with no advance notice, if something comes up. And many of today's employers simply expect that. That's why they're looking to hire people fresh out of college, who don't have a family yet to "get in the way".

    I always followed the majority of your listed "points for 16 year olds to learn from" - but a few of them just aren't realistic. For example, I always knew renting was a bad deal - but when I first moved out of my parents' house, I ended up renting an apartment with a roommate. At that point in time, I didn't have any credit history built up yet, nor did I have money for a downpayment on a house. But it was still time to move out (or just become a leech off of my parents - which I don't believe in doing either). When I got the opportunity, I did buy a small house (for well below market value, no less), and pay less on my mortgage each month than some people pay on their car loans. Waiting until a home is fully paid off to get married is ridiculous adivce, IMHO. Marriage should happen whenever 2 people in love with each other feel it's the right step to take. It really shouldn't be governed by how much property someone has paid off. Assuming a healty, normal relationship - both partners should simply be committed to the job of trying to get through life together. If part of that means both people doing their part to keep payments current on a house, so what?

    Your point #7, by the way, is very questionable advice in my opinion. That's exactly what I did, and I feel quite certain it's one of the biggest mistakes I made! When you work for small businesses, you don't end up with any recognizable/respectable names of employers to put on your resume, nor do you gain experience working in many scenarios that are only available to people in a very large workplace. Hiring managers see big company names on a resume, and feel more "secure" in a decision to hire you. There's an assumption that a large business has the resources to do more complete background checks and so forth; If you were good enough to get and keep a job with one of them for a length of time, you're probably good enough for the next position too. When you work for small places, it looks more suspicious - like perhaps the business owners were just personal friends who hired you as more of a favor?