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Microsoft, Intel back HD DVD over Blu-ray
raitchison writes "Reuters is reporting that after months of sitting on the fence in the battle over what will replace the venerable DVD that Microsoft and Intel have thrown their weight behind Toshiba's
HD DVD over the Sony's Blu-ray.
Better compatibility with existing DVD technology as well as lower cost were cited as reasons to back HD DVD.
While this is undoubtedly a significant blow for Sony in their efforts to establish Blu-ray as the next standard it's not likely to be the end of Blu-ray."
Better compatibility with existing DVD technology as well as lower cost were cited as reasons to back HD DVD.
Or to help their XBox sales against the PS3.
So when can I buy HD DVD pr0n?
I was Mr. Sony in the 90s (mini dis , vaio, etc) because I loved their technology. Now, slashdot:Microsoft::dada21:Sony.
Sony has to learn that single party closed standards won't exist for long. We won't see an open standard, but at least a consortium of different markets offers multiple profit-oriented groups some debate.
When members of a consortium debate one another, the debate is "how can I make more money?" But to make money they need not just a cost benefit, but a happy customer in the long run.
Sony alone only sees one customer base, never a good sample of need. Toshiba has two other hard hitters now, offering a larger and more varied customer base to figure out.
One scary thing: software + processor + media format giants can make the worst DRM imaginable. What if Sony pandered to Linux or OS X or just the PS3 market? Plus Sony has clout with the media distributers, whereas MS and Intel bite them in the ass because most "pirates" use MS and Intel products.
From TFA: They said the HD DVD format would make it easier for consumers to copy high-definition movies to computer hard drives. Suuuure.
TFA mentions commitments from media houses, but until I see it, I'm not believing it. If we'll have two formats, my parents will be the deciding factor, not me.
I'm too young to remember that format war, but I'm not young enough to learn the lesson:
Wait until a de-facto standard has emerged. Otherwise, its a crapshoot at best.
"We wanted to choose the format that has the highest probability of this market taking off," said Stephen Balogh, director of optical media standards and technologies at Intel.
When did probability amount to anything in marketing computer components. Either Microsoft and Intel supported them or they didn't. Those that weren't supported didn't do as well intitially.
Marketing has always won out over technical merit - period.
"Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
That's why I don't buy Sony, but we'll see how this one plays out.
This is such a tough choice for companies. It's more of a practical vs cutting edge thing. HD-DVD "technically" isn't as "good" of a format as B-R. The problem is that with production prices so high in comparison, people would rather buy something cheaper. I think the major issue at hand here is that you have half the industries supporting one and half supporting the other.
If it all goes to market, we're going to have to either have players that play both or two separate players. And you can imagine how confused non-techie people are going to get when their B-R disc doesnt work in their HD-DVD player.
Would anyone have guessed differently? Since MS and Sony are pitted against each other the consol wars their choice was made up for them.
Hello, in the PC market we all know how wonderfully horrible catridges work. Early CD drives with cartridges were slow and bad. DVD-RAM died a painful death, probably in some part thanks to DVD burners getting out quickly there after. While HD-DVD has less storage, I think the industry will find that users want backwards compatibility (something Blu-Ray lacks if I recall). And history isn't on Sony's side, afterall there were the losers in the Betamax-VHS battle, and some people would say that Beta was the better format.
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
Would HD DVD be a miss just like SACD and DVDA for audio? I don't think many people will find it appealing enough to invest in this technology for some more pixels on their screens. For data storage it is still interesting ofcourse.
jouwnieuws!
People aren't going to jump on either the HD-DVD or Blue-ray wagon for at least a year or so. The first buyers will be the geeks and peeps with enough money. On top of that, most consumers don't have plasma displays or projectors (although a growing number do have HD-TVs and they're a common item at Wal-Mart. In a few years they'll probably phase out regular TVs just like 900Mhz phones phased out older cordless models).
The quality of existing DVDs is quite amazing and I think most people will be happy with it for a while. The question comes with compatibility. Consumers want to only have to buy one version of something. Will the HD-DVD/Blue-ray they purchase work at their friend's house?
Personally I like the Blue-ray standard. It's a massive amount of data crammed onto a single disc. It's interesting that the article states that "...said the HD DVD format would make it easier for consumers to copy high-definition movies to computer hard drives...". So will HD-DVD have a less restrictive DRM than Blue-ray or are we talking about media size again?
I doubt both standards will stick around like DVD-R/DVD+R, because as I said earlier, people only want one universal format for content they purchase. One will be here five years from now and another, like laser discs, will end up at your local used book store in huge bins selling for $5 a pop.
The lowest cost and most compatible format would be to stay with existing DVD technology!
If you are creating a new technology that will require new hardware and new investments in manufacturing, why make it an incremental step? There are so many players in this format war I can't keep up, but I know that Blu-Ray is supposed to be higher capacity and will prevent HD movies from requiring a media change (no one liked that with Laser Disc flipping half way through a movie).
I say if the industry is going to expect the public to pay for a format change, we get a complete change, not some semi-compatible almost change that will require yet another change for additional capacity far sooner than the alternative that exists today.
Plus, I read that HD DVD is hitting timing issues that mean it won't be out until Blu-Ray anyway.
I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.
That's just my impression from these two articles...feel free to add a counterpoint. The article did mention Blue-Ray disputes the cost and time-to-production arguments, and some major Hollywood studios back it.
Microsoft has always been in the HD-DVD camp for obvious reasons (Xbox360), so the only real news here is that Intel has jumped on with HD-DVD. Who cares? Intel is a large company, sure, but does anybody really care which optical storage format a SEMICONDUCTOR company supports? This sounds to me like Microsoft begging anyone it can to support their format of choice.
Surely the powers that be can see that a unified front is better for everyone. One reason the take up of DVD was so fast was that it was a single format. Any disc would work on any player, whether it was a budget model or a high end one. People remeber the VHS-BetaMax fiasco, who is going to upgrade their kit and more importantly their DVD library until the winner of the war stands alone? I can see the appeal of upgrading if the tech is better, but i am not going to get stuck with the losing format so i will not be upgrading until then, and i suspect i am not alone.
So Apple is supporting Blu-Ray, while Intel is supporting HD-DVD. Discuss!
Slashdot's first reaction to VMware
DVD Dual-layer media is still expensive and rare after ~2 years. How common and cheap will next generation media be? The cheaper, more available media could be the deciding factor.
A lot of articles quote 'cost-saving' as a factor in HD-DVD over Blu-ray. Where exactly are those cost savings? In media or player production? Factory retooling? R&D?
XBOX 360 doesn't include a HD-DVD....maybe a future version will (XBOX 720?), but no HD-DVD on the model they are selling this season.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a fat white guy who is threatened by change."
Playstation 3 will have Blu-Ray built in. MS didn't put HD-DVD into Xbox 360, it uses standard DVD. It's basically "game over" once the PS3 is released. HD-DVD doesn't stand a chance.
Can firmly support BLURAY.
:)
We may not always be 100% sure in our positions, but we are 100% sure they are the opposite of Microsoft's
The price is always right if someone else is paying.
This article over at Ars Technica, while somewhat one sided has some more information.
They won't be able to squash the BluRay Consortum... look at their board of directors...
Apple Computer, Inc.
Dell Inc.
Hewlett Packard Company
Hitachi, Ltd.
LG Electronics Inc.
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd.
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation
Pioneer Corporation
Royal Philips Electronics
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Sharp Corporation
Sony Corporation
TDK Corporation
Thomson Multimedia
Twentieth Century Fox
Walt Disney Pictures
FanFictionRecs.net
Since the Xbox360 ships with a 12x dual-layer DVD-ROM (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox360/factsheet.htm) I'm not quite sure where the idea came from that HD-DVD is the Xbox360 format of choice. Could it be, just maybe, that MS (and Intel) actually believe that HD-DVD is the better format? Why is it always a battle of game systems? It's not like anyone needs new game systems, I mean, World of Warcraft is already out.
I can buy a Sony DVD-ROM drive right now, I cannot find an Intel or Microsoft DVD-ROM drive.
Exactly how does Microsoft and Intel "backing" a format affect my choice in buying a new-generation DVD drive?
The full article is here:
http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/186/3
They said the HD DVD format would make it easier for consumers to copy high-definition movies to computer hard drives.
Two things:
1) Copying content from media to a file is purely software. Neither DVD format should be much harder than the other. This is not a valid point.
2) Since when is copying movies to hard disks OK with large corporations? Again, this is not a valid point.
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own!"
Either way, I'll have to buy the White Album again.
I for one, do not welcome either format. OK, get more data on the discs for console gamers and such, but as far as movies and films go, plain old DVD has more than enough quality for me. I am just wanting to know if there is going to be a point in my lifetime that I will convert to something other than DVD unless I am forced. Is Blu-Ray or HD DVD going to be a step up in actual quality on my current TV and home theater? I doubt it. The conversion from VHS to DVD was needed and gave us more quality and features. Neither of these formats will give us the same kind of bump that DVD gave us, so why convert to a new format so soon after DVD? All I can figure is that all the money makers want some hardcore DRM.
Check out this opinion piece about the manufacturing costs of Blu-ray vs HD-DVD. It definitely makes more sense to create HD-DVDs than Blu-ray discs. http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/ne xt-gen-dvd.ars
Neither format uses catridges! How many times does this need to be said?
As long as the drives exist, both Microsoft Windows and Intel based PCs will support both of these formats.
When all is said and done, HD-DVD will win. Based off of ONE reason. People will think BLU-RAY is something new and weird, but HD-DVD is just a new version of DVDs. Consumers are stupid, which makes HD-DVD the default winner. It's the one consumers are going to know what it is and buy it.
Consumers would benifit most from a 'dual support' system. From what I understand, Blu-ray uses a very intense holographic type system to allow the higher amount of storage. There won't be any 'blu-ray' consumer burners for a LONG time (if ever). Where as HD-DVD could have consumer burners pretty quickly.
Why not allow for something like toshiba is doing where you could have a BLU-RAY reader and HD-DVD reader/burner?
If that isn't the solution, consumers are going to suffer. One format will win in the end (remember beta vs vhs) and a group (either HDDVD or Blu-ray) will be left with a bunch of worthless media down the road (ie. beta).
if no one is going to go to Blu-ray, then who cares if the PS3 has it?
Ahh, but you know Sony is going to sell millions upon millons of units very quickly just based on past console success alone (even if the initial games are not all that special).
So that means suddenly you have millions of people with Blu-Ray players, vs perhaps a few tens of thousands with (still expensive) HD-DVD players. If any kind of decent percentage of PS3 owners buy Blu-Ray media, sales in that format are going to be much better.
To say no-one is going to buy Blu-Ray is to ignore how many people will buy the PS3 regardless of Blu-Ray support, but then balk at buying HD-DVD because they already have an HD player in the PS3.
There's a very real argument to be made that the PS2 substantially increased the rate of adoption for DVD players. I know a lot of people for who the PS2 was the first DVD player they had - the PS3 looks to simply follow the same pattern. History would indicate it will be a success especially with the XBox not releaseing an HD-DVD model until later (undoubtedly at the same time as the PS3).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
All of this is a moot point. Consumers will not be buying the next-gen DVD discs for the following simple reasons:
1) DVD has not even been in the market for ten years. It came out basically in 1997. People are *just now* buying more DVDs than VHS. I think people know the industry is just trying to put out a new format to get them to buy the same movies all over again.
2) The HD-DVD does not offer enough benefits over DVD. The transition from VHS to DVD was easy (better picture clarity, form factor, don't have to rewind), but the advantage of HD-DVD over DVD is just better resolution. Most idiots look at a DVD playing on a plasma and say "wow, HD!".
--- witty signature
As others have pointed out, the fatal problem with (any) DRM is that all keys have to be accessible from the same host. Which means, sooner or later (probably sooner) it will be cracked.
Evolution is a fact. Darwinism is a joke.
On cost, I would note that media costs are independant of sale prices. That's why CD's are still so expensive.
On manufacturing costs, that is a good point but with millions of PS3 players being around and sold at cut-rate prices that negates the advanatge there.
On speed, true HD-DVD will be in first but in smaller quantities - and since the PC market will really be backing both players (no reason why a consumer can't buy either one and have it work with a computer) I think a lot of people would opt for the formayt with substantially more storage - Blu-Ray. I see no reason to get an HD-DVD burner when Blu-Ray burners are so close. I'd rather have higher storage capacity even if the media costs a bit more. In fact even if the media were twice as much to store 1.4x the amount of data I'd still prefer it as I really want to lower the number of discs required for backup of large HD's.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Take a look lower at the list of companies in the Blu-Ray consoritum. It is substantial and really a more impressive overall list than the HD-DVD camp.
Blu-Ray is hardly a Sony solo effort, and is technically superior to boot. If one had been more open with less DRM I would say a choice could be made based on that but from the DRM standpoint both suck equally; for data backup from a computer Blu-Ray holds more and is a clear winner.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Blu-Ray DVD players will ship with a Java VM. The interactive menus on Blu-Ray titles will be written in Java. I don't think MS is going to back a standard that puts a Java VM in everyone's living room.
I like the DVD format as much as any other geek. But I have to say, I'm not looking forward to this next generation of DVDs at all.
What does the consumer gain from Blu-Ray or HD-DVDs? Improvements in video quality that won't even be noticeable on 90% of TVs?
And what do consumers stand to lose? The next gen of DVDs are sure to have harsh DRM and artificially high prices. They'll be harder to back up or copy, because it'll take 5 DVD-Rs or half your hard drive to copy a single disk. And most annoying of all, if the manufacturers push the format hard enough, we'll all be FORCED to go buy new high-def drives/players to watch new movies, and they'll be pushing re-re-releases of all the older movies we've already paid for twice.
Frankly, I hope these next formats crash and burn harder than Laserdisk and Betamax combined. Let consumer demand drive the market, for once.
And that's when the fun begins. The content providers have made known their intent to cripple players whose keys have been compromised, by revoking their keys on new media. The task for the free information counterculture becomes obvious - compromise and release as many keys for as many best-selling players as possible, to face the content providers with the choice of either abandoning their DRM aspirations or incurring the wrath of the proletariat.
Here is why HD-DVD is better according to MS and Intel...
----------------
Microsoft and Intel cited the following consumer and industry requirements of any successful next-generation optical format for high definition, which is reflected by what HD DVD delivers today:
- Managed Copy: A first for DVDs. Managed Copy is a guaranteed feature within HD DVD that gives consumers the freedom to make copies of their discs to a hard drive or home server, including Media Center PCs using Intel Viiv technology, and enjoy them in every room of the house over their home networks. HD DVD discs also will allow copies of the movie to be played on portable devices.
- "Future-proof" compatibility. Using proven HD DVD "hybrid disc" technology, a single disc can store both high-definition and standard-definition versions of a film, allowing consumers to immediately enjoy the standard-definition movies stored on these discs on today's DVD players, while HD movies can be replayed later on the HD DVD platform. This is an opportunity for consumers to buy discs at launch that future proof their collections -- in other words, helping assure customers that the discs they buy will remain viewable in the future.
- Proven low-cost, high-volume manufacturing. HD DVD discs use essentially the same manufacturing equipment as existing DVDs, meaning that production of HD DVD can ramp up easily and with lower costs.
- Superior capacity. HD DVD-ROM discs will offer dual-layer 30GB discs at launch, compared with BD-ROM discs, which will be limited to 25GB.
- Superior interactivity. HD DVD discs will offer greater interactivity using iHD technology, allowing for enhanced content, navigation and value-added functionality for high-definition films. For example, HD DVDs can offer advanced picture-in-picture capability so that other video, such as a director's commentary, could play on top of the movie.
- Superior format for notebook PCs. The compatibility of HD DVD with standard DVD facilitates and simplifies development of slim disc drives for integration in notebook PCs, one of the fastest-growing segments of the PC market.
On what axis do you consider Blu-ray to have superior performance?
Bear in mind that, at launch, HD-DVD will have higher capacity, since HD-DVD dual-layer is much farther along. So for at least as year, HD DVD will be at 30 GB while Blu-ray will be at 25 GB.
Also, for the case of movies, both formats are easily big enough for Return of the King: EE in full 1080p with multiple high bitrate audio tracks, etcetera.
Now, there might be reasons to like Blu-ray the physical format for other reasons, but they're both well beyond "good enough" for movies.
My video compression blog
They also have the broadcast market. That's the people that make television programs.They've already made this thing http://pro.sony.com.hk/product_showprod.php?path=f ormat,5,subformat,8,product,125&id=125, wich uses blue-ray, and a number of other products. And those hve sold pretty well.
In other words, they already have a market for blue-ray. It won't be killed by microsoft and intel. It might have less of an impact than it could but it'll still make syne a hefty wad of cash.
The Euclidean path integral over all topologically trivial metrics can be done by time slicing and so is unitary when an
Most peeps here look at the single companies involved and miss the main two issues in the Entertainment technology world:
1. Who can license and who can manufacture the technology
2. IT vs. CE philosophy
The traditional CE manufacturers are all in the BD camp and they fear two enemies:
Chinese manufacturers that can manufacture and sell for far less and who have destroyed the traditional CE business (think CD players for $500 in the 90s and $49 DVD players in the 00s).
They also fear Intel and Microsoft for bringing media technology to the PC. Their vision is to have a harddisk recorder with a BD slot and a 100Gig disk sell for $1000. In the PC world all this is manageable for $300.
So the CE camp prefer closed style platforms, signed Java code on encrypted engines, etc.... Something that should run on designated hardware, but not in software and protected, so the hardware cannot be done in low-cost countries such as China.
So... the morale of this is: Intel and MS will always follow what can be done in a CPU and where the rest of the hardware apart from a CPU and OS can be low-cost....
The CE camp wants higher hardware prices to protect their own manufacturing power (similar to any Western country)....
All the new drives that come out have a pretty slow read speed at first. CDs were 1x for years, DVD were 1x,2x, for a long time.
If the PS3 blu-ray is slow (1x or 2x), then it doesn't matter how much data it stores, it will provide irritating game play. I believe the Xbox 360's dvd drive can handle dual layer at 16x... its tiny compared to blu-ray, but could be much faster.
Does anyone know what the speed of the ps3 blu-ray drive will be? I think that could have an impact on people's impression of the technology, and potentially slow adoption.