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Software PVRs Becoming Tivo Killers
mikemuch writes "ExtremeTech's Jason Cross examines PVR software that runs on Windows -- applications from SnapStream, Cyberlink, and SageTV. With TiVo's mounting price hikes, service contracts, and 'features' like self-deleting shows, the DIY option is getting more appealing all the time." From the article: "All the major TV features you're used to with TiVo or Windows Media Center Edition are there--quick 30 second skip, padding show recordings (start early and stop late), a nice integrated guide with easy-to-read program info. The interface design isn't quite as good as either of those two other options, but it's one of the best we've seen in a Windows-based PVR application outside of MCE. If we had to pick an annoyance, it's that you can't seem to bring up the program guide or navigate the menu without stopping the live TV or recording that you're watching. TiVo plays the current TV program in the background, and MCE plays it in a small window in the lower left. We didn't miss it until it was gone."
I currently run MCE05 after years of Tivo and love it. It never fails, the interface is usable by the lady, and it was a breeze to install.
I tried EVERY other Win & Lin PVR and none were as stable or easy to install/use. The new Rollup2 for MCE adds copy/view restrictions but they're relying on the video driver and encoder to pass the flag. I found a driver that doesn't pass the flag, and I'm happy.
I'd love to switch to Meedio or MythTV but recent trials a few weeks ago vetoed the idea. Stability and ease of use weren't there yet. MCE is a performance hog but it works. No kludges, never crashes and really integrates well in my house with the Xbox Extender.
The average home user still can't be bothered to set one up though and will thus still want the nice shiny, straight out of the box option
Lets see a Tivo with 2 tuners which does it's job damn well 24x7 for $99 or a $1000+ dollar desktop which won't be up 24x7....
Then it killed my iPod too, because it knew too much.
I don't have a TV (not since 1989) so TiVO like devices haven't interested me, but I've been keeping a casual track on the goings-on with TiVO, MythTV, and others.
But what confuses me is this: All the "new" features they keep adding, seem like a step backward to me, are these features forced upon you regardless of device you have, or are "1st Gen" model TiVOs and whatnot, valuable property for ignoring all the new stuff?
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
"When we have MythTV on the penguin, and even MythTV based LiveCDs, who honestly cares about running a windows PVR?"
People who have ATi graphics cards and/or people who would rather buy such a graphics/DVR capable card from the local Best Buy or CompUSA instead of ordering a specialized Linux supporting card from a more obscure source.
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
I see they wanted Windows only, why didn't they include http://mediaportal.sourceforge.net/MediaPortal? It is open source, has the features they want, and runs on XP. Now, if someone (anyone) could include QAM support, I would be all set.
The one thing I like about Beyond TV- other than the fact that it runs just fine on obsolete hardware and an obsolete operating system- is that it produces WMV files. I believe MythTV on Linux does so as well- but TIVO fails in this regard. What do WMV files do for me? Give me two hours on the train every day to watch TV, during my commute, on my Windows Mobile IPAQ. That's five half-hour shows (once you skip the commercials) or three hour length shows- and I use the showsqueeze function to put them into a very watchable, 60MB/hr format that fits nicely onto flash cards.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
With the ability, for years, to record straight to my HD I couldn't think of a decent reason to get a TiVo. Heck, I even get TV schedules and can pick and choose what to record, when and it came with my ATI video card. No funny business, telling me what I can and can't record, how long it lasts, what I can do with it, etc. It's all a bunch of MPEG files and plays as good as when I recorded it.
This all subject to change when everything goes HD.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
The TIVO monthly fee is nothing in comparison to the time and aggravation it would take to set up and maintain a software PVR.
But then again I'm a Mac person, and I value things that just work.
My thoughts exactly.
Why mess around with a Windows-based PVR, when there's Linux and OS X?
I've seen enough Windows-based solutions to be 100% positive that I made the right decision going with a Mac and the EyeTV 500. If I cared about streaming video all over the house, I probably would have looked at getting my fingernails dirty with MythTV on Linux, but I don't so the Mac does a fine job of what I want.
So why even look at whatever "me too" offering the Windows world is currently coming up with? Go for one of the obvious choices and spend your time agonizing over which projector to buy.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
It's called BitTorrent and a DVD Burner. Capture TV only. I pay for my cable. I just don't program my VCR properly.
The standard offerings by cable companies are pretty good. Cost $5 a month for standard definition PVRs or $10 a month for the HD PVRs.
That $10 a month for the HD PVR is practically untouchable. There just isn't any HD PVR solutions that are comparable. I am talking about more than just the over the air HD content that MythTV, et. all. can record. HBO-HD, InHD, TnTHD, Discovery HD, etc.
You can get cable boxes that output HD over firewire for recording purposes, but those firewire devices must respect the "Broadcast Flag" like signal the cable companies have implented. IE, you don't control the content coming from that port.
I am coming from an HD centric view point. SD centric viewers obviously have more choices and options available to them.
I can't speak for the parent, but one reason I'm attracted to MythTV is because of external modules, stuff like MythGame, MythWeather, MythPhone, etc.
As for TiVo, they still (for now) have one big advantage for me: I'm a DirecTV subscriber, and TiVo is the only device that will record the digital signal instead of the analog conversion. When DirecTV starts offering their own DVRs, I'll probably start using it instead. I love my TiVo and MythTV, but the most important thing to me is seeing what I watch in its glorious original quality.
"With TiVo's mounting price hikes..."
What series of price hikes are you referring to? The prices for the Tivos themselves have been consistently dropping, albeit with rebates (and the before rebate prices haven't been going up). The monthly subscription fee has increased just once in the past several years - certainly not at all in the 2+ years I've been a subscriber - and the multi-unit fee has actually DROPPED.
I'm guessing you've never had a Tivo - you just get all your "facts" from Slashdot discussions?
#DeleteChrome
The reason the MythTV documentation seems intermittent is that MythTV doesn't really care what kind of remote control you use. It uses LIRC for remote control. The remote controls supported by LIRC change with each release, and those releases aren't synchronized with MythTV releases. The LIRC homepage has a comprehensive list of IR and RF receivers that are known to work.
Jeez, don't click that link. Stupid me, it's: GB-PVR. They've got a nice forum and a dedicated developer. Unfortunately, it's not open source. But neither are any of the commercial offerings.
The Kerr Divine: My wife's battle with a mysterious illness.
GBPVR, found here. It's great, free, and does some really cool features. It's definitely worth checking. I was actually prepared to drop money on a Windows software if I liked it. I don't give two craps about viewing photos, and I don't really listen to much music that isn't in the car or on my own computer. All I looked for was a good PVR that also lets me play downloaded videos/movies/ripped DVDs. I'll give the quick take on the ones I've tried:
1) Meedio/MeedioTV - buggy as hell. And slow. It's also very new, as in a few months (MeedioTV is, at least). Looks nice, though.
2) SageTV - the built-in video browser/viewer isn't that good. I found setting up plugins sort of a pain, and I could never easily get ComSkip to work well. Maybe it was just me. It's also kind of pricey.
3) BeyondTV - no videomedia component at all; you have to separately purchase BeyondMedia. Other than that, I like this one the best. Never really tried messing with any plugins.
4) GBPVR - pretty good as is, much better with the MyVideos plugin and some other plugins that are very painless to install. Downside is none of the skins, even the MCE port, are attractive at all. Also, sometimes there's a lag between hitting a key and getting a response. Few crashes, less than Meedio but more than Sage/BeyondTV (I have roughly one crash every 3 weeks, running 24/7). Have to renew your Zap2It profile every three months to get an EPG, which is kind of annoying. Installing ComSkip a breeze, and it will auto-ship commercials (BTV and Sage require you to press some button during commercials to skip them, presumably for legal reasons; I'm not sure with Meedio).
There you go. There are plenty of other ones, like Media Portal or Myth. I've never tried MCE, though, and most people I talk to like that best if for no other reason than the WAF (wife acceptance factor). Likely, my gf prefers software she's used to, and since I already showed her how GBPVR works, she's happy with it. As long as Desperate Housewives and The Daily Show are recorded, the GBP-vo stays.
Another poster already mentioned Media Portal (an excellent opensource choice for Windows) but there is also GB-PVR over at http://www.gbpvr.com/ which is also free to use however not open source. Its in active development with active forums and lots of plugins available. It supports xmltv as well as zap2it for EPG. I recommend a hardware based encoder (I use Hauppage 350/150) for either.
Both of these fine products are easier to setup than MythTV or Freevo (I tried those too).
Just another alternative to MCE.
I think we'd all enjoy a nice cold beverage. -David Letterman
It seems like Tivo is becoming hated around here for some reason. Even the review as posted freely admits that nothing, not even Windows Media Center comes (due to large screen picture quality) close to Tivo features and function. When you account for the cost of the other options, you have a real difficult time justifying anything else. A base Tivo unit is now $49, plus a liftime subscription for $299 (total cost of $348). The software and PC and tuner card(s) for the other options will cost at least twice that. There is nothing to install with Tivo short of screwing the cable in and plugging in the network, nothing to check compatability with. It's upgradable for those who like to tinker. The hacks, that give skip functionality and such, can be found from links off the Tivo site itself, and a simpleton can run them from the remote and have worked from day one and still work today. I love to put together solutions myself, but until the software comes on par with Tivo functionality and pricing, I can't justify changing. I would gain nothing and lose quality, functionality and money.
This is one topic I'm rather passionate about and I'm always talking to my co-workers about PVRs and how having one has changed my viewing habits. For example, we (the wife and I) just used to watch whatever was on and our experience wasn't the best. But now, we find that we watch what we want to and consequently, watch less TV overall.
Personally, I'm really excited because GB-PVR has a built in MediaMVP server which means that you can have a ~$40USD small, quiet front end for all your TVs and keep the huge, noisy server in the basement or whatnot. Having seperate front-ends and back-ends was a major plus in my book for MythTV, but I was getting concerned about the cost of building small and quiet (wife-acceptance factor is really huge here) front-ends for my TVs. With a MediaMVP (a wireless version is in the works), I won't have to worry about it.
The Kerr Divine: My wife's battle with a mysterious illness.
YOURE ABSOLUTELY WRONG!!! "People who have ATi graphics cards and/or people who would rather buy such a graphics/DVR capable card from the local Best Buy or CompUSA instead of ordering a specialized Linux supporting card from a more obscure source." You can buy a Hauppauge WinPVR at Compusa, Circuit City, etc... http://www.hauppauge.com/pages/buy/wtob_us.html These cards are not obscure or specialized. They work well on many platforms and are easy to buy! These are hands down the most compatable / reliable PVR cards out there for Linux and they work well in Windows MCE. I am not going to crap on Windows MCE because it does have some nice features, but let me offer some insight to my ignorant friend. Regarding ATI - They have horrid Linux support. I have seen a handful of people successfully use their ATI TV Cards (Not AIW cards) for Myth. (http://www.mythtv.org/ The AIW series support just isnt there. However, the Nvidia driver support has been wonderful thus far. I set out to put together my own PVR. At first it was windows based due to the ease of setup and install. It sucked. It was resource greedy and there are subscription costs. I do not want to pay for a TV guide which should be free already. So began the MythTV install. I have successfully set Myth up on Fedora and KnoppMyth. Both are viable solutions depending on your experience. KnoppMyth (http://mysettopbox.tv/) is extremely easy to install and setup. You have a handful of hardware options. I use an Nvidia Ti5200, and old SB Live, and a new Hauppauge PVR250. Relatively cheap stuff in todays market. This system is incredible! You can configure multiple frontends (Including the nifty Xbox Frontend) on a single backend server, have a special server to cut commercials, or just one box to do it all. You have Mame, SNES9x, Nes support, RSS Feeds, a Web Browser, a web frontend to schedule from another pc..its great. So many people have done it now the documentation is very comprehensive. If you have ever played with a Linux box or built your own PC this project is not beyond your scope. Get off the microsoft bandwagon and dive into a real PVR. You will not regret it.
TiVo has no need to be worried about software-based PVRs. It's got the entertainment industry behind it on that one. We talk on Slashdot from time to time about the broadcast flag and how it would essentially prevent software-based (and especially open-source) PVRs, but what gets a lot less notice is that the same restrictions already encumber digital cable TV. Digital cable TV boxes output an analog signal at a lower resolution than HD, but for the purposes of software-based PVRs, that's where it ends. The HD digital signal is also an output option from a digital cable TV box, either through DVI or Firewire, but that signal is restricted by the 5C DTCP content "protection" system, which prevents a signal from being transmitted unless the listening devices are compliant.
Someone could probably come up with a software solution to defeat 5C, but with the DMCA in place and without the DMCRA to defend our rights, doing so would be illegal. Essentially, it takes open-source PVRs, which are legal and worthwhile in the analog domain, and puts them in the category of tools for piracy when used in the digital domain. And what's more, the DTLA (which administers licensing of DTCP) will, just like the DVD-CCA, never ever ever grant a license for someone wanting to build an open-source PVR.
TiVo has nothing to worry about from software PVRs - they'll die off slowly as the shift to digital HD continues. Then the entertainment industry can finish TiVo off at its leisure.
in Snapstream's BeyondTV, if you hit E or have a remote button assigned to E then you get a semi-transparent program guide without having to stop LiveTV/playback. The author of the article was unaware of this apparently, as he thought you had to stop playback of a recorded program or LiveTV to get to the program guide. BTW, been using BeyondTV for over a year here, and couldn't be more happy with it. Had some trouble at first due to the capture card I was using (software-based) and after getting a pair of hardware encoder (hauppauge pvr-250) cards all was great.
Galleon and other projects provide many of these functions (such as weather) to your off-the-shelf network-connected TiVo