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Software PVRs Becoming Tivo Killers
mikemuch writes "ExtremeTech's Jason Cross examines PVR software that runs on Windows -- applications from SnapStream, Cyberlink, and SageTV. With TiVo's mounting price hikes, service contracts, and 'features' like self-deleting shows, the DIY option is getting more appealing all the time." From the article: "All the major TV features you're used to with TiVo or Windows Media Center Edition are there--quick 30 second skip, padding show recordings (start early and stop late), a nice integrated guide with easy-to-read program info. The interface design isn't quite as good as either of those two other options, but it's one of the best we've seen in a Windows-based PVR application outside of MCE. If we had to pick an annoyance, it's that you can't seem to bring up the program guide or navigate the menu without stopping the live TV or recording that you're watching. TiVo plays the current TV program in the background, and MCE plays it in a small window in the lower left. We didn't miss it until it was gone."
I currently run MCE05 after years of Tivo and love it. It never fails, the interface is usable by the lady, and it was a breeze to install.
I tried EVERY other Win & Lin PVR and none were as stable or easy to install/use. The new Rollup2 for MCE adds copy/view restrictions but they're relying on the video driver and encoder to pass the flag. I found a driver that doesn't pass the flag, and I'm happy.
I'd love to switch to Meedio or MythTV but recent trials a few weeks ago vetoed the idea. Stability and ease of use weren't there yet. MCE is a performance hog but it works. No kludges, never crashes and really integrates well in my house with the Xbox Extender.
When we have MythTV on the penguin, and even MythTV based LiveCDs, who honestly cares about running a windows PVR?
... tivo killer eh? ...eesh...
And with all the DRM and such on windows these days, who would WANT to run a windows based PVR? Ignoring of course that adding xp pro to some hardware pumps the cost of that PVR by $150
-GenTimJS
Prepare to read 500 "Windows is teh suck! Use MythTV on Linux! It is da bomb!" comments...
The average home user still can't be bothered to set one up though and will thus still want the nice shiny, straight out of the box option
Lets see a Tivo with 2 tuners which does it's job damn well 24x7 for $99 or a $1000+ dollar desktop which won't be up 24x7....
Don't forget the open source Freevo and MythTV software. I have just installed them on my (Linux only ) PC. Works great!
Then it killed my iPod too, because it knew too much.
I don't have a TV (not since 1989) so TiVO like devices haven't interested me, but I've been keeping a casual track on the goings-on with TiVO, MythTV, and others.
But what confuses me is this: All the "new" features they keep adding, seem like a step backward to me, are these features forced upon you regardless of device you have, or are "1st Gen" model TiVOs and whatnot, valuable property for ignoring all the new stuff?
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
I'm shopping for DirecTV now, and was amazed that their 'free' PVRs come with a monthly fee! While the software PVRs get better and easier to install, I'm going to go that route to be free of fees and restrictions. So, the million dollar question, which is the best bet right now:
http://freevo.sourceforge.net/
or
http://www.mythtv.org/
or is there another option I'm missing?
fak3r.com
I see they wanted Windows only, why didn't they include http://mediaportal.sourceforge.net/MediaPortal? It is open source, has the features they want, and runs on XP. Now, if someone (anyone) could include QAM support, I would be all set.
The one thing I like about Beyond TV- other than the fact that it runs just fine on obsolete hardware and an obsolete operating system- is that it produces WMV files. I believe MythTV on Linux does so as well- but TIVO fails in this regard. What do WMV files do for me? Give me two hours on the train every day to watch TV, during my commute, on my Windows Mobile IPAQ. That's five half-hour shows (once you skip the commercials) or three hour length shows- and I use the showsqueeze function to put them into a very watchable, 60MB/hr format that fits nicely onto flash cards.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
With the ability, for years, to record straight to my HD I couldn't think of a decent reason to get a TiVo. Heck, I even get TV schedules and can pick and choose what to record, when and it came with my ATI video card. No funny business, telling me what I can and can't record, how long it lasts, what I can do with it, etc. It's all a bunch of MPEG files and plays as good as when I recorded it.
This all subject to change when everything goes HD.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
It's called BitTorrent and a DVD Burner. Capture TV only. I pay for my cable. I just don't program my VCR properly.
What I really find interesting about Tivo is their advertising model. I don't think I've even seen an actual TiVo ad, but rather product placement in every TV show imaginable. I head it mentioned in Law and Order, The Daily Show and there was an entire segment dedicated to it in Family Guy complete with TiVo sound effects.
Although some of these references may have just been for the hell of it, like on talk shows, when the name comes up in sitcoms and dramas, it's pretty safe to assume the plug was paid for.
Living in the southern US, everyone down here likes to refer to generic products by their brand name. Every soda in the word becomes a "Coke" even if its a Pepsi, every portable mp3 player becomes an "iPod" even if it's an "iPlay" and now ever PVR device is being referred to as a "TiVo" when it's really a Comcast PVR (which is probably made by Motorola or some other company).
TiVo might go away, but the name will stick in every household.
The standard offerings by cable companies are pretty good. Cost $5 a month for standard definition PVRs or $10 a month for the HD PVRs.
That $10 a month for the HD PVR is practically untouchable. There just isn't any HD PVR solutions that are comparable. I am talking about more than just the over the air HD content that MythTV, et. all. can record. HBO-HD, InHD, TnTHD, Discovery HD, etc.
You can get cable boxes that output HD over firewire for recording purposes, but those firewire devices must respect the "Broadcast Flag" like signal the cable companies have implented. IE, you don't control the content coming from that port.
I am coming from an HD centric view point. SD centric viewers obviously have more choices and options available to them.
This year its "they both suck because neither supports QAM/CableCard HD".
And, in fact, they both suck because neither supports QAM/CableCard HD.
Until there are input cards that accept a cablecard, software PVRs will always be a fringe hobbiest activity. Joe six pack doesn't want to deal with the hassle, so Tivo or a service-provided DVR makes more sense. And anyone who has bought one of the 16.5 million HD sets in the US doesn't find them terribly useful either. I have three Tivos sitting in my storage unit, and I'm sure I'll never use any of them again because I don't own an SD TV anymore. It may piss me off to be stuck using the near-worthless Motorola box that Comcast provides, but at least I can watch and record HD, and most stuff I watch is, in fact, in HD.
And I'd bet it'll be a long while, if ever, before we see a cablecard-compatible input device.
I, personally, use Dish Network's DVR, and am quite appalled with it. Not only do I have to pay an additional $10 a month to use it (its supposed to be $5, but they give you a hidden fee), but its fairly unreliable. The system powers itself off if its not used in awhile. Thats not a bad feature. The thing is, if it does this, it doesn't record programs once its off. Quite annoying. To top this off, it will sometimes say it has recorded a program, but it didn't. So, when you try and re-record it (if you're this lucky), it will cancel the new recording because it will say its a duplicate. To add insult to injury, the box itself can become quite noisy, as it heats up a good bit, and the fans are loud. The Dish Network service is great, it rarely goes down, and is great, except for some occasional lags between the video and audio, but I'd be glad to trade my DVR in for a computer-based version any day of the week (mostly for DVD burning capability).
Because I don't. Don't own a TV, that is. And I'm posting here because I'm interested in the technology. I'm not interested in television, though. Because I don't own a TV.
I can't speak for the parent, but one reason I'm attracted to MythTV is because of external modules, stuff like MythGame, MythWeather, MythPhone, etc.
As for TiVo, they still (for now) have one big advantage for me: I'm a DirecTV subscriber, and TiVo is the only device that will record the digital signal instead of the analog conversion. When DirecTV starts offering their own DVRs, I'll probably start using it instead. I love my TiVo and MythTV, but the most important thing to me is seeing what I watch in its glorious original quality.
I have had two MCE2005 computers and loved them both, unfortunately the first one had the motherboard melted, apparently couldn't cope with my 24hour 7days a week uptime, but the current one is doing great (3 months old :d )
Inbetween them I had a Power Cinema software installed on a Windows XP machine, and that was awful.
MCE gives me unlimited (hard drive is huge) recording time, free guide (one off payment for machine), and is one of the most easy to use software packages I have seen in a long time, the GUI is also lovely.
Microsoft did this right, and it is MCE that is keeping me from switching to Linux, because I love my MCE
"With TiVo's mounting price hikes..."
What series of price hikes are you referring to? The prices for the Tivos themselves have been consistently dropping, albeit with rebates (and the before rebate prices haven't been going up). The monthly subscription fee has increased just once in the past several years - certainly not at all in the 2+ years I've been a subscriber - and the multi-unit fee has actually DROPPED.
I'm guessing you've never had a Tivo - you just get all your "facts" from Slashdot discussions?
#DeleteChrome
Jeez, don't click that link. Stupid me, it's: GB-PVR. They've got a nice forum and a dedicated developer. Unfortunately, it's not open source. But neither are any of the commercial offerings.
The Kerr Divine: My wife's battle with a mysterious illness.
GBPVR, found here. It's great, free, and does some really cool features. It's definitely worth checking. I was actually prepared to drop money on a Windows software if I liked it. I don't give two craps about viewing photos, and I don't really listen to much music that isn't in the car or on my own computer. All I looked for was a good PVR that also lets me play downloaded videos/movies/ripped DVDs. I'll give the quick take on the ones I've tried:
1) Meedio/MeedioTV - buggy as hell. And slow. It's also very new, as in a few months (MeedioTV is, at least). Looks nice, though.
2) SageTV - the built-in video browser/viewer isn't that good. I found setting up plugins sort of a pain, and I could never easily get ComSkip to work well. Maybe it was just me. It's also kind of pricey.
3) BeyondTV - no videomedia component at all; you have to separately purchase BeyondMedia. Other than that, I like this one the best. Never really tried messing with any plugins.
4) GBPVR - pretty good as is, much better with the MyVideos plugin and some other plugins that are very painless to install. Downside is none of the skins, even the MCE port, are attractive at all. Also, sometimes there's a lag between hitting a key and getting a response. Few crashes, less than Meedio but more than Sage/BeyondTV (I have roughly one crash every 3 weeks, running 24/7). Have to renew your Zap2It profile every three months to get an EPG, which is kind of annoying. Installing ComSkip a breeze, and it will auto-ship commercials (BTV and Sage require you to press some button during commercials to skip them, presumably for legal reasons; I'm not sure with Meedio).
There you go. There are plenty of other ones, like Media Portal or Myth. I've never tried MCE, though, and most people I talk to like that best if for no other reason than the WAF (wife acceptance factor). Likely, my gf prefers software she's used to, and since I already showed her how GBPVR works, she's happy with it. As long as Desperate Housewives and The Daily Show are recorded, the GBP-vo stays.
Another poster already mentioned Media Portal (an excellent opensource choice for Windows) but there is also GB-PVR over at http://www.gbpvr.com/ which is also free to use however not open source. Its in active development with active forums and lots of plugins available. It supports xmltv as well as zap2it for EPG. I recommend a hardware based encoder (I use Hauppage 350/150) for either.
Both of these fine products are easier to setup than MythTV or Freevo (I tried those too).
Just another alternative to MCE.
I think we'd all enjoy a nice cold beverage. -David Letterman
It seems like Tivo is becoming hated around here for some reason. Even the review as posted freely admits that nothing, not even Windows Media Center comes (due to large screen picture quality) close to Tivo features and function. When you account for the cost of the other options, you have a real difficult time justifying anything else. A base Tivo unit is now $49, plus a liftime subscription for $299 (total cost of $348). The software and PC and tuner card(s) for the other options will cost at least twice that. There is nothing to install with Tivo short of screwing the cable in and plugging in the network, nothing to check compatability with. It's upgradable for those who like to tinker. The hacks, that give skip functionality and such, can be found from links off the Tivo site itself, and a simpleton can run them from the remote and have worked from day one and still work today. I love to put together solutions myself, but until the software comes on par with Tivo functionality and pricing, I can't justify changing. I would gain nothing and lose quality, functionality and money.
I have used MCE2005, and MythTV, and I got sick of both of them. There were too many problems with DRM with MCE and it wasn't as customizable as I wanted. I still wanted to use my computer to play games, and switching between dual booted OS's got annoying. I finally went with www.xlobby.com. It is a free, completely customizable HTPC fontend. It supports programs like SageTV, zoomplayer, ffdshow, winamp, etc (the most popular HTPC programs). It has built in control via xremote and your pocket pc or tablet. Its easy to install and customize. I would highly recommend this program.
...and under active development. I set it up on my old PIII box to serve music, DVDs, web browser, and there are even some games I can play with my MCE remote. Nice FREE alternative to MCE, Snapstream, etc. The PVR functionality is there for when I have time to play with it, otherwise it makes a great media content server. MediaPortal: A Free PVR for Windows
This is one topic I'm rather passionate about and I'm always talking to my co-workers about PVRs and how having one has changed my viewing habits. For example, we (the wife and I) just used to watch whatever was on and our experience wasn't the best. But now, we find that we watch what we want to and consequently, watch less TV overall.
Personally, I'm really excited because GB-PVR has a built in MediaMVP server which means that you can have a ~$40USD small, quiet front end for all your TVs and keep the huge, noisy server in the basement or whatnot. Having seperate front-ends and back-ends was a major plus in my book for MythTV, but I was getting concerned about the cost of building small and quiet (wife-acceptance factor is really huge here) front-ends for my TVs. With a MediaMVP (a wireless version is in the works), I won't have to worry about it.
The Kerr Divine: My wife's battle with a mysterious illness.
TiVo has no need to be worried about software-based PVRs. It's got the entertainment industry behind it on that one. We talk on Slashdot from time to time about the broadcast flag and how it would essentially prevent software-based (and especially open-source) PVRs, but what gets a lot less notice is that the same restrictions already encumber digital cable TV. Digital cable TV boxes output an analog signal at a lower resolution than HD, but for the purposes of software-based PVRs, that's where it ends. The HD digital signal is also an output option from a digital cable TV box, either through DVI or Firewire, but that signal is restricted by the 5C DTCP content "protection" system, which prevents a signal from being transmitted unless the listening devices are compliant.
Someone could probably come up with a software solution to defeat 5C, but with the DMCA in place and without the DMCRA to defend our rights, doing so would be illegal. Essentially, it takes open-source PVRs, which are legal and worthwhile in the analog domain, and puts them in the category of tools for piracy when used in the digital domain. And what's more, the DTLA (which administers licensing of DTCP) will, just like the DVD-CCA, never ever ever grant a license for someone wanting to build an open-source PVR.
TiVo has nothing to worry about from software PVRs - they'll die off slowly as the shift to digital HD continues. Then the entertainment industry can finish TiVo off at its leisure.
in Snapstream's BeyondTV, if you hit E or have a remote button assigned to E then you get a semi-transparent program guide without having to stop LiveTV/playback. The author of the article was unaware of this apparently, as he thought you had to stop playback of a recorded program or LiveTV to get to the program guide. BTW, been using BeyondTV for over a year here, and couldn't be more happy with it. Had some trouble at first due to the capture card I was using (software-based) and after getting a pair of hardware encoder (hauppauge pvr-250) cards all was great.
From the article:
Not really, unless you're a geek with too much time on your hands. The DIY option will become appealing when it's as easy to install and set up as any other off the shelf appliance. Until then, a DIY PVR a hobby.
TiVo, for all of it's faults, is still trivial to set up and use. In fact, it's so easy to use that my six year old child (who can barely read) figured it out. My wife and I were so happy with ours that we just purchased a second TiVo (the current rebate didn't hurt).
Galleon and other projects provide many of these functions (such as weather) to your off-the-shelf network-connected TiVo
http://mediaportal.sourceforge.net/
;) (Your comment has too few characters per line (currently 33.9))
it is open source and :
General
Flexible XML based skinning engine - Create your own skins, or choose one of the available skins !
Extendable via plugins. Media Portal can easily extended with extra plugins. Plugins can be overlay windows, modules, tag readers, players,...
Time, Date
Dynamic keymapping. You decide which keys you want to use for which actions
Remote Controller support (using an external program like girder)
Switch between graphics & LiveTV as background when browsing the menus
Internal support for several remotes (streamzap, MCE, redeye, winlirc, hauppauge, FireDTV)
Mediaportal comes with opensource MPEG2 audio/video codecs, written by Media Player Classic
Topbar support for basic remote functions
Windowed and fullscreen support
My TV
and so on...
PVR is just a bad idea forced upon you by backwardsthinking providers. Why should everyone have to store the same episode locally, and make sure their expensive toy is programmed to record it? Video on demand have existed for a long time. You start your cheap setopbox, browse through the virtual video store, select a movie and watch it, instantly. What are the providers waiting for?
You are in error. Please see the TiVo terms of service and scroll down to item number 8.
I have quoted the relevant portion for you below. (Caps are in the source, not my own addition.)
Never confuse feeling with thinking.
For supported cards under linux see http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/ATSC_cards
......So it seems that "soft" DVR's with support for HD is still a little behind in the Windows world. My only complaint is that the Linux software doesn't support all the extended programming information that is carried in the TS. Not too big a deal though since the PVR software holds redundant information except for closed caption data.
I don't think the ATI is supported unless underneath it's accually using an off the shelf chip. I guess that's possible, but I didn't see that card mentioned on the Wiki.
I have an Athlon 3200+ and I can watch live 1080i TV using a simple 'mplayer dvb://stationname' command. Myth seems to put a little overhead on it and the picture breaks up a little. My understanding is if I recompile with PREEMPT this should help clean up things.
It strange that it requires a MPEG *de*coder. Decoding doesn't seem to require that much power as long as I'm using XvMC (Motion compensation support in hardware).