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Google Terror Threat
bogd wrote to mention a CNN article wherein Indian President Abdul Kalam stated his concerns that Google Maps could be used to aid terrorists. From the article: "The Google site contains clear aerial photos of India's parliament building, the president's house and surrounding government offices in New Delhi. There are also some clear shots of Indian defense establishments. Debbie Frost, spokewoman for Mountain View, California-based Google, noted that the software uses information already available from public sources and the images displayed are about one to two years old, not shown in real time."
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This excerpt is also found duped on most government buildings, and citizens are required to salute and sing the national anthem of Canada wh
looks like india has outsourced their equivalent dhs and military intelligence to USA
The Register's competition based on this fact, spawned by the Australian government's worry over the security of their nuclear facility.
So all they should do is put up one of those "Are you crazy?" tests before getting into Google Maps, but they can change the words around to say things like, "Do you enjoy looking at outdated pictures of geography for the places you want to destroy?" [ ] Strongly Agree [ ] Agree [ ] Disagree [ ] Strongly Disagree
I think you have to balance the threat against the public benefit.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
Ok then, more easily-accessible terrorist information. I mean, Google could blur out all security-sensitive buildings like the White House but then the terrorists know to bomb the blurry spots, or to go to the local tour agency in D.C and pick up a map of the city. Or buy Microsoft flight simulator and practice crashing planes into buildings (ya, they blurred out stuff too), etc etc. The list goes on. I agree that the information is already available like the Google spokespersons says. Google just makes it more convenient to access, that's all. Everybody has to go to less work for good and bad purposes.
that Google Maps is as evil as Linux, because terrorists might use it?
The worst presidents (and other heads of governments) are those that continuously state that terrorists are a threat, and that everything that could possibly help a terrorist has to be taken down.
Terrorism is about threat, and continously emphasising that threat is only helping the terrorists.
Paper maps proclaimed to be a threat to national security as they can be used to guide terrorists to important government buildings.
Okay - The most recent terror attack I recall was on the Lonodn Underground. This used suicide bombers. We also saw a large attack on trains in Spain, involving planted bombs and another suicide attack involving hijacked planes. There seems to be no evidence that terrorists have any substantial technological capabilities.
All of these were possible without maps.
The locations of most public buildings is already very well known. Government tends not to keep its existence a secret.
I just don't quite see how the information gleaned from google maps is really going to help a terrorist organisation any more than, say, mobile telephones and large bags.
Many organisations and governments around the world have expressed these sorts of fears about GE.
/. crowd is one that's all for open-ness (and the public availability of imagery tends to favour this), but politics is not known for making logical decisions. It will probably take one major criminal incident (aka terrorist attack) to occur where there's proof of GE being used, at that point perhaps google will cave.
Not long ago, the operators of Australia's only nuclear reactor expressed concern about GE.
Korea (both north and south) have expressed their concerns about it.
The Dutch have expressed concern.
Even in Russia they are nervous.
So far google has resisted censoring imagery, but how much longer can they hold out?
The
Personally I hope this never happens, but you can never tell what will happen...
Sparks:Gadget:Beer Maker
You can't blame technology for terrorism. Terrorist will use whatever tools are at their disposal. People don't seem to remember that 9/11 occurred with terrorists using low technology methods take over a plain with Box Cutters (BTW it is tough to actually kill a person with a Box Cutter, But they could get a nasty cut) And they did it without google maps they did it with finding flaws in the Beurorocracy[sp?] of our government. Technology has little to do with terrorism the only major technological advancement that aided Terrorism is the airplane because it removed the water borders between countries that makes it easy for people mad at us half way around the world to come here.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
But not all the other maps (online and none online)? Perhaps maps.google.com is a a threat somewhere, but most likely it is elsewhere.
Why is it, that leaders everywhere invoke the terrorists notion, and almost always it is during an election or when they want something that is not related? It is becoming like the hitler thread.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
If they answer yes, then redirect them to www.disney.com. Otherwise, allow them access. It's works great for the pr0n industry. You know,the question they like to ask "Are you 18 years of age or older?" This is fine for the politicians regarding pr0n access, why not for Google maps?
Politicians, they are sooo paranoid, except when it comes for fiscal reponsibility.
Evil people don't think they're evil. - George Lucas, Making of Ep III
... about how evil and "cowardly" terrorists are, how we have to stand firm against them, never negotiate, never give into their demands, etc. And then they want us to limit our lives in assorted stupid ways because if we don't, "Oh no! The terrorists will get us!" Anyone see the contradiction here?
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Everyone including the terrorists know that the maps are not up-to-date. I assume that terrorists go to the place physically for security reconnaissance and so forth. I can't believe they are blaming Google for aiding the terrorists. It's insane.
"The test of the morality of a society is what it does for it's children." -Dietrich Bonhoeffer
If you are a terrorist you probabaly haven't been waiting for Google to put up maps and show you how the indian parliament house is built or where it is. I am sure any promising terrorist can use basic language skills or a simple map to locate those structures by himself.
It's not like you wake up one day and think to yourself, "Wow, Thanks to Google maps I can locate the foreign department's offices in new Delhi now, I might blow them up".
Austrlalia's parlimant and prime ministers private residency are accesible throught google maps quite easily, but any self discerning terrorist would probably know where these are long before those become available.
---
Computer Support in Sydney
Guys, emphasis is mine, but where else can I get this already available information to the public apart from a service similar to what Google offers? I do not know of any!
...I'm comforted by this reminder that most politicians are morons, and that George Bush is not that special.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
The Rashtrapati Bhavan, the official residence of the President of India.
9 &spn=0,0&t=k&hl=en
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=28.614345,77.19947
. . . the rich and powerful never minded when public information was available, so long as it was only available to the elite. Now that it's available to everyone, it's a problem that the alcalde's property tax bill, what cars he owns, and, yes, pictures of his palatial estate, are available to all comers on the in-tar-web.
I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
Food helps terrorists. Air helps terrorists. Maps help terrorists.
You know what else helps terrorists? Constantly freaking out about how every little thing is either vulnerable to terrorists or helps terrorists.
Seriously, what is it with the people that can't think about anything but terrorists? Don't they realise they are part of the problem? Calm down, chill out, have a cup of tea, and don't be part of the problem.
Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
WorldWind does have higher resolution maps of certain areas on earth. I can see my and my parents' house quite distinctly, while on GoogleEarth I see at best a dark pixel.
Don't worry folks, GoogleEarth won't change anything soon.
Before governments publicized their worries about terrorists looking at maps of sensitive places, the government could probably make use (subpoenaed/secret/coerced, etc.) access to Google's logs to see who was trying to peek at these places. Cross-referencing anyone who tried to look at super secret "nuclear installation Q-345" with other data might help the government find terrorist cells. Now, after the government complains, 100,000 normal folks immediately go to Google Earth to try to find these sensitive locations and pollute the access log files.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
Does this explain why the US school system is so bad? Is it to prevent those people from being skilled enough to read and become terrorists?
So anyways the moral of the story is I love living in a "free" continent where security can overtake my freedoms, but me must continue to use the word "freedom" even more fervently as if it is true.
"Why of course the people don't want war... (snip) That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
While a case can, indeed, be made about the need for a free flow of information, to call the information in Google Maps as "publically available information", however, is to ignore this double-standard.
More than mere navel gazing.
I just don't get - it is so HARD to understand that it IS a human issue where terrorism rises. It is not nation vs. nation, hell, it is not even human vs. human. It is just a reaction of those sad and bad bastards who have nothing in their lives left but kill and destroy innocent lifes. Why they do that - is there someone who just TRIED to understand it?
What caused World War II? What causes most of war? Money? Only money? Get a grip - that it is VERY complex problem usually and it is too tangerous to left solution to arms - because, hell, it don't resolve anything at all.
user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
... a double standard.
As governments (made up of people) pursue the invasion of privacy of individuals in the name of anti-terrorism than it should not be a double standard.
What would happen if the whole world was able to look at any area and/or spot on the planet in various resolutions and as it currently is (up to date), as well as time lapse sections?
The arguement for invasion of privacy is to prevent wrong doings and identify those pursuing such criminal direction.
So lets apply open source software methodology to the world view of google maps and earth!!!
Lets' identify the fuckers with their war machines and intentions....and when they argue against it, throw them in the prison of total world exposure for being intentional unfair and supporting double standards.
Lets get Google Maps up to speed of being current!
We need it to apply open source software methodology in riding the world of terrorism.
He is wrong, and so are you.
Google (as stated many, many times) only organizes information that is already public.
Everything a goverment wants to keep secret (and, mind you, governments should NOT do much stuff secretly) it should do underground (Cheyenne Mountain) and isolated from other, non-google type of spying. But mainly, governments shoud refrain from doing anything secretly.
How to make a fission bomb is not a secret anymore; how to refine uranium so it can be used still is, but not for long. The secrets are coming out of the box and we should be able to understand their consequences and deal with them.
I (for one) am waiting for a safer time when everyone is capable of making an atomic bomb (or putting a phaser rifle to overload, with similar results) -- maybe then everyone will think twice before doing so.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
Obviously MS should bug their Flight simulator to contact the government by the Internet if anyone crashes a plane into a building.
/sarcasm.
And anyone caught looking up popular destinations only in Google Maps, is headed to Guantanamo. Don't bother packing, they'll provide a toothbrush for you.
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
Terrorism is the spread of fear among people for political control. The fear can be ignited by sabotage or murder, like planebombing the World Trade Center or "ethnic cleansing". The scary act itself is not the terrorism per se - the spread of the fear, and its use for political control is the actual terrorism. President Kalam has harnessed Google's act of publishing easily used satellite photos of India to spread fear, to achieve political ends. Both simply passing laws to censor Google, and any other "extra" items that get packaged in those laws, and all the international political clout he accumulates along the way. His campaign is terrorism, and Kalam is a terrorist. Terrorism is InfoWar, fought in the media, in our minds, and by ourselves against each other.
President Kalam knows all about terrorism - he was a rocket scientist who developed missile technology that puts fear of India's nuclear force into everyone in Asia, and therefore everyone in the world. Nuclear "deterrence" is fear harnessed for geopolitical ends, and therefore terrorism. All militarism is terrorism when used for political control, as it always is.
Terrorism is awful, unacceptable. So is the barbaric destruction terrorists harness, nearly always directed at civilians, either in "total war" or even the orwellian "collateral damage". We're so swamped with terrorism and the rhetoric about it that makes it work that we have to grow up and learn what it really is. The only cure for fear is to dispel the ignorance that lets the fear spread so widely, that lets fear of one threat contribute to control over management of another unrelated one. We have to develop the reactions to people selling fear so we can drop it. That wisdom is the only deterrence to terrorism, which makes it less successful, therefore less likely to be used. As long as terrorists get high ratings, we're doing most of their work for them, and they'll keep pumping out new products, winning, and destroying us. The more we learn to recognize them, the more we'll win. That's how we win "the war on terrorism". It's an infowar that can only be won by winning in our own minds.
I give media execs I'd like to innoculate against terrorism copies of War and Peace in the Global Village. Marshall McLuhan wrote this peppy little book about how every tech innovation in history was followed by a "new kind of warfare", including global telecommunications. Martin Fiore revised it for _Wired_ to republish, with marginal quotes from James Joyce, updating it for the Internet age. Learning its lessons is like taking a dose of terrorism vaccine. If only _Wired_ were more than tech marketing, they'd rerelease it as a Flash movie, and it would virus its way around the Net, spreading immunity as it went. When we're sophisticated enough to see that happen "spontaneously", we might show signs that we'll win the InfoWar against terrorism.
--
make install -not war
I want to know to whom I complain about the loss of my privacy.
I don't want anyone being able to peep into my backyard (without a legal search warrant etc.)
No one asked me if they could 1) take a snap of my backyard and, 2) display it publicly.
They should have.
Cheers,
Ashley
I have a twisted question regarding privacy: if you argue that satellite imagery should be publically accessible, what's wrong with a camera in every street, and storing the images for a long time?
Delhi was the first city in India to have in-car GPS map systems available to the consumer. Further, an extremely detailed map of all locations in Delhi is available from several other sources. The only concern here is the resolution of the maps, Google Earth can provide. The potential hazard seems to be the ability to identify independent buildings which are usually less accessible. However, for maps from aerial photographs and satellite photographs, there are companies who claim to have had access to such information and provided services from them like Ridings India.
For one, yes - a Terrorist organisation would have had some difficulty in obtaining relevant maps of locations they target. Dr. Kalam believes that the issue is ease and speed of access to the maps of higher detail than normally available commercially, which might assist terrorists. There was a foiled attack on the Indian Parliament during the tenure of the last Government (in 2001) which was ill-planned.
However one can take a tour of the Parliament building and premises when it is not in session and therefore map it with sufficient ease, though he'll have to wait for sessions to be off. As for residential locations of the President (Rashtrapathi Bhavan) or Parliamentarians or Government Officers, they are almost known to anyone in Delhi. The trouble in a terrorist attack is usually penetrating the "Z-Class" security cover provided to those who are potential targets.
While strategic maps may be significant weapons in an openly declared war (particularly of military installations), in covert warfare methods used by terrorist operatives other factors including "surprise" and "stealth" play more importance; requiring intelligence operatives to monitor any possibilities and be prepared. Another recent attack on a Hindu Shrine in Ayodhya was also foiled due to tight security and collaboration between military, civilian and paramilitary security groups (although the miscreants had access to the maps). Satellite Maps of Ayodhya are yet to be provided on "Google Earth". I am quite surprised that Dr.Kalam has come up with such a comment, having been a scientist for ISRO and DRDO prior.
No Greater Friend, No Greater Enemy! (Lucius Cornelius Sulla)
FOOD !!!! FOOD can help Terrorists to stay alive, while planning attack. Many may agree, the the use of FOOD should be regulated and controled in some kind of way. If this is impossible, we might even consider to abolish FOOD Or even have everyone who has bought or tried to buy FOOD within the last two month before 9/11 arrested and asked some serious questions. I mean, come on - this is dangerous !! And without FOOD 9/11 would not have happened!!
It would seem that DHS and similar have created a new golden opportunity for terrorists everywhere.
In the 'old days' terrorists had to mess with dangerous explosives, or if really ambitious, chemical and biological hazards. The old holy grail, dangerous nuclear material was generally out of reach.
Today, they can create just as much terror in government and the civillian population just by thinking up something a terrorist MIGHT think of and promptly mentioning it to appropriate authorities. The kicker is that by taking that approach, they are mostly indistinguishable from 'the good guys' and still accomplish their goal.
I was stationed in Sigonella, Sicily and Rota, Spain. Both of those bases are clearly displayed on Google Earth. I worked in a classified area and that is shown on the maps. Even if the images are two or three years old, it is not like we move the buildings.
I like what google has done but did have that same thought the first time I looked up the bases.
Side note: If you look up Rota, Spain and then find the runway then move to the right, someone cut a large peace symbol into the grass.
Sheesh. Cut the hysteria.
First of all, this is probably impossible. They don't have enough people and resources to do this. Al Queda, while being real and dangerous, is nowhere near as ominous a threat as our incompetent and hysterical government claims. AQ is just another device being used by governments to scare us into giving up our freedoms in the name of security. Notice how the government does not request secrecy for any private chemical plants or refineries, or other vulnerable targets. This is just politicians reacting hysterically to their own trumped up crap.
Second of all, even if all of India's tech sector imploded, or all of New York City was vaporized, it would at most put a few percent of people out of work temporarily. There would be no worldwide depression, no starvation, no nuclear war. It would be an asterisk on page 10,000 of human history.
Currently hooked on AMP
Ok, So where does that leave programs like Streets and Trips from MS, or Delorme, or online at Mapquest, Mapblast, Tiger data, MSN Maps and Data, Terraserv or Yahoo Maps ? For that matter, why not voice concerns about a GPS period? Why single out Google? They have all been around for years.. is there some reason Google Maps are different?
Sounds more like someone is trying to find a reason to point a finger at Google, but purposely overlooking what has been there around for years.
You think these companies run their data centers in India? All they have are some programmers and some call centers. If India dissapears, these companies can easily re-hire Americans at a higher cost to write code and answer phones. Or, outsource to a different country.
Even if you blow up the offices, as long as there are geeks, there will be IT. We can work from home even.
Fool.
Blar.
Since when did slashdotters become so selfish that all they concern themselves is with 'what happens in US' and not the loss of lives elsewhere. Its noteworthy that google-map does not map the national labs, and in some cases even the town where the national labs exist - in the United States. So whats their 'dont be evil' justification in mapping the defence establishments and nuclear labs of other countries. Even South Korea and a couple other countries have protested. And thanks to GWB, more terrorists are growing up then being killed every day.
Many, if not all, of the call centres in Hyderbad, Bangalore, etc. do integrate "accent and regional terminology" instruction into their employee training. Maybe the person you speak to is new, and is still trying to get the new accent down (I'd ask "How's YOUR Hindi, but given 15+ years of The Simpsons, and people imitating Apu, I figure that 90% of Americans do a pretty damn good Indian accent...Mine is awesome... :/ )
It's not about speaking English. English is a major language in India. The accent, hey, nothing wrong with nicely asking the tech to repeat, and then even to say it back to them once you get it...They'd probably listen to your pronunciation of it and try to better say it like that.
I read all the flack India's call centre population get, and I don't understand it...I've got mad respect for that whole scene. Granted, the choice of giving "them" "our" jobs, I can understand as being a bitching point, but we should aim that at the folks who in a greedy negative move, decided to screw over their countrymen for a buck. But the bright side is that they also accidentally did something good by giving localities in such an economically screwed, yet, intellectually RICH country a chance to come out into the tech sector like this, and really improve local economies that definitely could have used a little jumpstart..In a few years, when all those Indian call centre employees are working for (or perhaps owning) the giant Indian software megalith corporations that will soon be emerging, the call centre jobs will come back to the US...Maybe when they do, you'll even be getting trained to speak at your call centre job with a more understandable INDIAN accent.
I can't wait to visit India...Stopping into a call centre is one of my plans... (Getting screaming drunk with as many of the techs as I can is another)
Thank you, come again.
All you need is lurv.
looks like india has outsourced their equivalent dhs and military intelligence to USA
After reading the "arguments" of the Indian president, I would rather think that the US has outsourced government cluelessness to India.
Thomas-
1) The US has not outsourced all, or even most important functions. Banks keep financial records in the US. Really, I've seen the computers on which they do it. No point in sending them over to India, legal problems aside, you aren't going to save any money. Most outsourcing is lower-level stuff, call centres and the like. R&D is still largely US based.
2) India is a real, no shit, well-armed nation. If Al-Queda started trying to pull off attacks in India, they'd work to stop them, and by and large succede. Also note that India doesn't have a bill of rights, the authorities get more latitude when dealing with criminals over there, and many things considered cruel and unusual in the US are normal there. What's more, in a matter that was national security related, they'd have even less restrictions.
3) Al Queda NEVER had the resources to pull of an attack like that.
So please, let's cut the mad-tinfoil-hattery here. India has better security than to allow every US intrest in India to be destoryed and if you blew up all the call centres, the world would not stop turning.
"Let's tell our citizens that if they don't let us search their carry-on stuff before they go on a plane, Al-Queda is going to kill them. But Al-Queda probably won't kill them, this is all just an excuse for us to look at everyone's stuff for no reason."
Only the most simple-minded would think they have NO reason, though limiting it to carry-on luggage is somewhat disingenuous. Rubber-stamped Wiretaps, IP data interception, indefinite detetention without due process of law... none of these have anything to do with carry-on luggage, but they're all things born of the fear of the AQ bogeyman, all usable to releive us "consumers" of our freedoms.
Oh in the name of all that's stupid.....
When the hell are people going to get OVER the TERRORISTS? If someone is intent on doing you harm, they will find a way. Period. End of freakin' story. It doesn't matter how many draconian laws you pass, or how much information you hide.
Seems like the enitre world has reached new heights in unsubstantited paranoia. Yes terrorist attacks happen. Yes they suck. But you have more of a chance of being struck by lightening than you do being struck down by terrorists.
Live in fear, and you have built your own cage. And the terrorists win.
And no, thanks to GWB, we have more to worry about from terrorists because now they attack people who are less able to prevent/defend against them and are less educated and are more religious (always a very dangerous combination). People are more willing to join them because they don't like the US and would rather be the "Devil's" right hand than in his path. Fear works.
AH! Don't put that on the web! It can be used by terrorist! AH! Don't do that! The terrorist will get ideas! AH! Don't say that! The terrorists might hear you!
It's repulsive. It's stupid.
Backpack nukes? Sheesh. Study the mechanics of a real nuke and see just how infeasible a backpack nuke is.
Fearmongering at its best. I thought we left this sh*t back in the 50's and 60's. Only then it was communism.
But on the bright side, we should be able to feed the starving with all this red herring.
~X~
~X~