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The H-1B Swindle
An anonymous reader writes "A new study shows that companies hire foreign workers for cheap labor, not skill." From the article:"When you look at computer job titles by state, California has one of the biggest differentials between OES salaries and H-1B salaries. The average salary for a programmer in California is $73,960, according to the OES. The average salary paid to an H-1B visa worker for the same job is $53,387; a difference of $20,573 ... H-1B visa workers were also concentrated at the bottom end of the wage scale, with the majority of H-1B visa workers in the 10-24 percentile range. 'That means the largest concentration of H-1B workers make less than [the] highest 75 percent of the U.S. wage earners,' the report notes. "
Anyone who has been in the computer industry for more than a few months knows this. Its prevalent everywhere. Don't let them say "there aren't enough engineers to go around", thats pure horse hockey. HIB workers arre cheaper, plain and simple.
What's beneath it is probably some hideous unethical, if not illegal, practice of hiring only H-1B people into jobs.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Is anyone suprised by this? ..
My employeer scours the fourth world for masters degrees, sponsors thier visa, then pays them $10/hour and forces them into unpaid overtime. After all, if they complain, the company can just stop sponsoring thier work visa
Unethical? Yes.
Illigal? Not in this state.
-Annonymousguywhodoesntwanttogetfired
Has anyone considered the cost to aquire and hold H1-B1 papers for a overseas worker? What about when the contract is up? The company is responsible to return the worker, who pays for that?
WTF? Over?
A new study shows that companies hire foreign workers for cheap labor, not skill.
I'm curious, did anyone at all believe otherwise?
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
And thats the real problem. Then again, i live in the middle of nowhere. Maybe i should start offering outsourcing for companies in CA who dont want to pay their programmers $80k+ a year
"Something's wrong with you...and I hope we never do meet again." - Deftones When Girls Telephone Boys
The cost of living in CA requires you to have to make on average: 73,961 dollars.
LOL... nice theory...
Working since 2000 to bring you news of how badly programmers are treated!
Still, in reality, is this any different than Norm Matloff's reports saying exactly the same thing over the past 5 years? And does anybody REALLY have any doubt that guest worker programs are just ways to lower wages in a given industry?
The exact same method was used to break up the California Agriculture Worker's Union back in the 1970s- and will continue to be used.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Do Bears shit in the woods?
When it's cheaper than paying for a quality shit somewhere else.
R(k)
The average salary for a programmer in California is $73,960, according to the OES. The average salary paid to an H-1B visa worker for the same job is $53,387; a difference of $20,573
Employers note: You can save $20,573 per year per employee. How? Just lay off your citizen employees and replace them with low-cost H1B workers!
Why deal with citizens with full citizenship rights when you can $ave $ave $ave with an H1B!
...corporations charge too much for their products.
I'm not sure how the assertion that these workers are less skilled is borne out here. This is just more globalization fallout. Apparently, programming skills are not as precious as we would all like to think; there are many workers in China and India that will work for less than half of what we make here; this is the same thing that has happened in other industries historically. The only way to save our skins is to continue to provide more value or agree to work for less. Programming that can be shifted overseas effectively is going to go there and no amount of complaining will do it. I say it's better to attract and hire these people here in America and let them build industries here than to push them out and artificially fix wages high here. Protectionism will not work.
Currently hooked on AMP
The Sky is Blue!
Water is Wet!
Companies are about making money!
...I'm a foreign national working on an H1B. I mean, at the pay I get versus what all the pundits, reports, studies, and "in the know" people say I should be getting, I must be.
Hey, wake up, pay sucks everywhere. Even for those born here. Consequence of the extended hangover from that double bubble burst...
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
Having RTFA I wonder how much of the "Duh this has to be true" concept effected their research. They seem to focus mostly on jobs title vs. looking at years of experience or education vs. pay. I think there would be more value in comparing people with the same relative experience who got their final degree be it BS, MS, or PHD from the same school to each other before saying.
"Abuse is by far more common than legitimate use,"
PS: This might be true but I think this has more to do with H1B's being less mobile as far as switching jobs than outright abuse vs. US citizens.
Film at 11. Also, stunning new evidence that bears crap in the woods.
Do you want those people paid 20k less here, where they will spend some of it on cars, food, etc, or do you want them paid 40k less in India/China? It sucks, but about the only thing that stops this race to the bottom is us being better.
We need to invest in schools and teach our kids skills (like how to reason). It's the only realistic way to prevent sliding into mediocrity.
So? Supply and demand, they call it. For many, this is the only way they can legally migrate into this country. I am not any good at working with anything except my head. Where I come from, this wouldn't have provided me with anything except a deadest of the dead end research jobs (I'm a physicist by trade). When I was hired at my first software engineer position for the company which agreed to sponsor the adjustment from visitor visa to H1B, I was getting 25K (granted, it was more than 10 years ago), and I wasn't complaining.
I can assure you, the best way to get rid of dragons is to have one of your own.
i personally think that if there was some type of law that effectively required the salary of the worker + worker's visa sponsorship = salary of U.S. Citizen, it would force companies to choose their workers based on skill, giving skilled foreigners a chance for high paying work, and it would allow U.S. and foreign workers to compete on an equal level, so that could end the job "stealing".
on an offtopic note, to reduce outsourcing, the government could establish some type of tax on products made by American companies using foreign labor.
or maybe i'm just thinking too idealistically.
I am currently in the US on an H1-B (married to a US citizen, so on track for a green card) and so a little about this process... albeit for a non-tech (university professor) job.
The H1-B rules state that an employer has to pay prevailing wages/salary for a position, precisely so that H1-B is not used as a way of undercutting the local job market. The application has to go by the State Employment Services Agency to verify the prevailing wage. Also, a company has to post notices regarding H1-B hires that mention salary details.
I don't think anyone reading slashdot is surprised by this. Companies use H-1B people as the closest legal thing to indentured servants.
The companies do generally pay the legal fees for said person to get a green card. So while the time as H-1B is "bad" compared to being a citizen or green carded, most of them feel it is worth it for the green card. After all the INS listens to high paid corporate lawyers much better than to the poor immigrant. (Or maybe the lawyers just know how to work the system better.)
Think Deeply.
Hey, if you know of a mob with torches and pitchforks, sign me up!
I can rest assured now knowing that my job is safe-- I make less than a H1B visa employee.
Saying that these H-1B visas have no skill is a bit stretching it. Even for California 53K is a lot to pay for an unskilled worker.
I'll bet he doesn't have to pay any benifits to them at all.
The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination
- Douglas Adams
Is this really caused by the industry, or by the H1b workers themselves? I think many H1b workers are less aggressive in increasing their salaries than native Americans (not a reference to First Nations). Some of the impediments that kept H1b workers in their places afraid to lose their jobs were removed years ago. The main one of these being the ability to switch jobs immediately and then apply for a new H1b with the new employer. I've been an H1b and was earning more than the average in the TFA back in 2000 in Colorado. Part of the reason I had a good salary was due to a work colleagues going and demanding (without my knowledge) that I have a higher salary. My cultural background hadn't prepared me to fight for my salary in this way, which is required in the US. On top of that, I was much more forthcoming and stubborn about my salary than many of my other H1b work colleagues from other cultures.
Some might argue that the industry is taking advantage of H1b worker's cultures to keep their salaries low. I think it's more the other way around. This subject seems to garner quite a lot of hysteria and sensationalism and is a very good tool for politicians and certain media companies who claim to report news to further their own agendas.
BTW, I'm no longer an H1b. I moved to Canada, a country that is more accepting of immigrants.
Other issue is that it does not compare apples to apples: most H1b are non-managerial positions with relatively low experience, while national average includes middle managers. One need to compare H1B to the people in the same position.
And it looks like reducing numbers of H1Bs does wonders to the IT jobs retention in U.S. indeed. Not.
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
Ask the H1Bs in the US how they feel about their jobs being taken away by the B and C list programmers back home in Bangalore. Imagine working your ass off to come over here for the opportunity only to have the guy from your CIS101 class who thought HTML was a programming language steal your job. Global economies are teh suck.
Speak truth to power.
A lot less than it used to- used to be $1600 just in filing fees, but that got slashed to $500 for FFY 2005. But it certainly doesn't account for a $13,000/year difference- especially when you figure that processing only comes around once every three years per worker.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
We think just because we are American that that entitles us to higher pay than the rest of the world. If we werent so arrogant we wouldnt see the outsourcing of jobs we do. Accept the fact that 53K is a good wage and anyone can live quite happily on that amount.
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
No kidding it's a swindle. That's the whole thing that pisses me off about it! I have no problem in general with some American losing their tech job in favor of some non-American gaining a tech job. What I have a problem with is that what really happens is an American loses their well paying tech job, some non-American gains a usually well paying job by their standards but still vastly less than what it replaced, and then the executives give themselves phat bonuses for saving money.
:)
They have no incentive to pay them well. As always, they will pay only the absolute minimum necessary to get someone to do the job, and yes considerations like "quality" are fortunate if they are considered at all like all non-bean-countable aspects of business. The result is more money concentrated in the hands of the few, fewer well-paying jobs for skilled people in this country, and oh yeah a little bit different distribution of what wealth remains. Gutting the American middle class for fun and profit!
And if the ones getting those not-so-bad paying jobs in India think they aren't going to be next when the greedy whores realize that someone in China will work for a third of what the Indian does, well, they'd be exactly like we were not so long ago.
I wish there was some reasonable way to cap the salary of executives to, say, 20x what their average employee makes, including outsourced/contracted work (which is part of what makes this seem impractical to me). Cap their bonuses and other compensation similarly. Then you'd stop seeing employers struggling to pay their employees less and less, they'd have an incentive to pay them more. Since they'd be paying more for employees, you might see them caring more about quality that they're getting for their money no matter where they are hiring from.
The enemies of Democracy are
Since from the American's perspective, there are more foreigners than there are domestic workers (North Americans). Should we be protected under affirmative action? I'm tired of all the foreign workers keeping us domestic workers down!
Now, I'm not saying I'm willing to accept the same pay as those my job is going to, that's just crazy. They should pay me more because I'm a minority and I deserve it. Same pay for the same work only counts when it benefits me.
That H1-B employees might also be less productive than US nationals? After all, most likely English would not be their native language and communications skills are important to quality productivity. Of course, if you're a die-hard marxist, everyone should be paid the same anyway...
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
That means the largest concentration of H-1B workers make less than [the] highest 75 percent of the U.S. wage earners
Yet, the oppressed foreigners keep taking advantage of the visas. Shame on the evil corporations for taking advantage of these poor people. To think, they could be spending more on their own countrymen and supporting their grossly disproportionate wages.
Rather than say, "Hey, you're trying to pay less for programmers!" we should be saying "Hey, are we getting paid too much? Are we pricing ourselves out of positions?"
Don't get me wrong. I've been a programmer for quite some time and it sucks, but supply and demand concepts aren't limited to one country. The world is getting smaller and more connected. National economies are merging into a world economy. No amount of artificial propping-up by local governments is going to keep it from happening. Get used to it.
Yeah, send 'em home, where they'll make even LESS money! I bet they'll feel really great about that.
If we'd just stop sending people over there to put guns to their heads and force them to come work here, they'd be so much better off.
Giving somebody 75% of an American wage to leave their home country, where the average wage is something like 7.5% of here, is not exploiting them; it's a win for the employer and a win for the employee. They can work here for a year and make what they'd make in 10 years back home. Even if they have to spend a lot of it to live, they still clean up. Back home, they can use that to jumpstart a better life; plus, experience with an American company looks awesome on their resume back home, so they make more money THERE too.
The report does not accounts for the fact that the money that a company pays for a H1B worker to a staffing firm is exactly the same that it will pay to an employee.
Most of the H1B workers in USA are recruited though a staffing firm. The staffing firm does the visa for the worker and brings them over to USA. The staffing firm then sends the worker as a contractor/consultant to the companies where he actually works. The company pays the market rate to the staffing firm. However the staffing firm (bodyshopping firms) take a major cut from that money and that is why your H1B worker gets paid less.
If you really care about the state of the foreign workers on H1B, then come to terms with the fact that they are required for worker/skill shortage in your economy which does exceedingly well by trading globally. The worker shortage might not be reflected by the employment figures as there are many jobs (code coolie types like maintainence, porting etc) that American workers do not want to do. Who does them ? Your underpaid H1B worker. Why is he paid less ? He has been targetted and potrayed as low cost job foreign job snatcher, because of which companies are reluctant to recruit him directly. So if you want to talk about ethics, then stop this diatribe against the foreign H1B worker.
In other words, I strongly suspect that the data can partly be explained with the lower average experience (or time on the job, if you will) of H1-B holders. I certainly see that at my workplace.
I work for a quickly growing 600 employee company with a significant H-1B percentage. Part of my job is interviewing and recommending engineers. I have never been pressured to hire an H1-B candidate over a permanent resident or a citizen. Our one and only concern is qualification. I've also never seen a case where the hiring team's choice of a candidate was overruled on the basis of cost.
Shocked to find gambling here in Casablanca!
I have a "Zero Policy" tolerance.
*/
I'm sorry, but a 73k per year programmer is not exactly a sparkling gem amongst rubes.
The people I pay 73k per year are shall we say... competent production level programmers, who left to their own devices will write utterly pedestrian and might I say, rather bug-riddled code with no sense of architecure or design other than that already provided by others via a framework.
My heavy hitters, and the ones I rely upon to help compose, shape and craft and add to the product as a whole and who have innovative ideas get at least 110K per year.
And I don't think my approach is all that unique.
Get in a core team of 2-3 Senior people to design, architect, mentor and lead and a rag-tag horde of underlings to do the grunt work.
So if these "average" programmers on H1-B are paid 20K less per year on average...
Is it really a statement on skill, or the fact that there are extra costs associated with an H1-B? Take into account the cost to the company of the H1-B status itself as well as importing and housing the worker. And that's before you get into wage expectations, where a 73K per year job might be perfectly acceptable to most Americans, a person from India would look at 56k per year as a pile of riches. Would they haggle over any offer made to come work in the US which offered riches compared to what they got in India? Hell, I bet you could get people to come over for 30k per year if you wanted.
So no, it's not about skill.
It's about offsetting additional costs and India being an employers market for employees who have far less expectations (and greater niavity) than their American counterparts.
An American is either a native, naturally born citizen or a naturalized immigrant. The H-1b visa is a "non-immigrant" visa, not intended for use by immigrants.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Every single time this subject comes up on slashdot, there will be an outraged US worker who says something along the lines of "people higher H1Bs because there cheeper". My response to that is: you're not out of a job because of H1B workers, but because you can't write properly.
The article summary would lead us to believe that companies are hiring foreign workers who are less skilled, for less money. If that's true, then it actually makes sense, and doesn't imply any kind of terrible unethical business practice.
However, I'm guessing that they're hiring foreign workers that ARE skilled, but paying them less money. That certainly does sound bad. But what if the jobs aren't disposable? If a person makes himself invaluable within an organization, I wonder if he couldn't demand proper compensation regardless of his nationality.
In my mind this is another issue of the American worker getting screwed. I'm sure that many people take it the same way. If something is done to even the score here, then it should be to benefit the American workforce, and not the foreigner who comes here by choice and is willing to work for lower pay. The outcome would likely be the same though no matter which side you approach it from.
Another thing to consider is that by hiring lower paid foreigners, companies may have more money to throw at US workers. Although that argument would probably work a little better if programmers were calling the shots and employers were scrambling to hire good people, like it was 6-10 years ago.
I'm not against foreign workers and I'm not a strict nationalist, but I do believe that a strong middle class is necessary to sustain our economy long term.
Make sure you lay the blame at the feet of those who deserve it: American CEOs.
American CEOs are sacrificing long-term viability for short-term profits. Sure, chasing the H-1B fad or offshore outsourcing work will save you money this quarter. But eventually, American software companies will fail because they did such a good job training their future competition.
I worked for a company that designs software for the retail industry -- point of sale and back office systems. There were many H-1B VISA workers there, and still are from what I know.
Some of us other workers weren't convinced it was what the company was paying them that was the big attraction in hiring them; rather, we thought it was the "advantage" of having a worker who, if he or she failed to "please" you for any reason, could be shipped back to whatever godforsaken country they came from.
I worked at this company up until about June of this year. Numerous american programmers had decided to jump ship, finding work at other companies, work with better pay and working conditions. The foreigners who were there on the H-1B didn't have this option, from my understanding.
I'm not saying it's not the money. What I am saying is H-1B -- aside from the money -- is the answer to the problem of "herding cats." No more "prima donna" programmers who have the temerity to say "take this job and shove it." Instead, you have workers who dread being shipped home.
quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.
My Dad was a H1B worker until he got his greencard. The reason companies pay less, is because if they pay the same, they can get sued from the unions. Think of it this way, the unions believe it isn't fair to pay a man that isn't even an American citizen the same wages because that deprives a "real" American of a working job. Hence, companies must pay lower under the risk of a civil suit from the Union.
However, eventually, the company benefits the H1B worker with a Green Card, the first step to citizenship... (I'm getting my US citizenship in December...)
I don't know how prevalent it is, but I have known at least a few H1B folks who came to the US either for college or just after. They started in the work force, then after garnering some experiencing and saving up a bunch of money, they moved back to their home country where they could live in relative wealth and comfort. If there is a large enough number of people that do this, you effectively skew the average H1B salary lower, as they have relatively more entry level positions than experienced positions compared to native workers.
But, since the plural of anecdote isn't data, this may be unfounded. It would be interesting to see a comparison of H1B salaries compared to native salaries for a given level of experience. I'm betting it's still lower, but it may not be as drastic as the OP indicates.
... and I refute the implication that I'm treated like a 'slave' or 'indentured labourer.' Yes I might make less than a US-born programmer, but I make a hell of a lot more than I was getting in the UK. Plus, I get all the benefits of being in California (cool lifestyle, nice weather, affordable stuff, etc.). And as someone else said, it's better for you guys that I'm here spending my money and paying taxes here rather than remaining in the UK and doing outsourced work from there.
On a side note, I can't vote here despite paying my taxes to Uncle Sam, but I can vote in UK elections by mail.
The other down side is that if my job goes, my visa goes with it soon after and I'm on the next plane back. However it becomes a lot easier to go through the green card application process when you're based here.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
You can only hold an H1-B visa for 6 years (3 years plus 1 renewal). After that you either get a green card or go home. The "job titles" compared (e.g. Programmer/analyst) are sufficiently general that they seem to be comparing H1-B holders right out of school with little expereience, to more senior people. It makes sense that the less experienced people get paid less.
Are the H1 workers being forcibly loaded onto boats and hauled into the US to take these jobs?
Because I've gotta say, if they're doing this willingly, then it's the market economy at work.
Mod this -1, Capitalist Pig.
Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
I would still rather compete with them while they're paying an American cost-of-living than have to compete against them while they're paying an Indian or Chinese cost-of-living. Keep bringing those programmers over here. Keep the jobs here where at least I have a chance of getting one. And keep the costs at an American rate.
I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
I would be happy with that $53000 too. I get less than half of that!
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
I call BS! ;-)
WTF am I doing replying to an AC at 5 A.M on a Friday night?
This applies completely to Micro$oft...look at the quality of their products, obviously it took little or no skill to produce them.
.... speak English, very often better than USians or even British people (gramatically speaking, the accent is a completely different matter, I know of people from different regions in the US that struggle to understand people from other US places, and don't ask a Londoner with strong Cockney leanings to try to understand a person from Glaswog).
I work with Polish, Chinese, Pakistanis, Indians, Spanish, Japanese, Italians and of course USians and British people, and frankly the language is a non issue in most circumstances.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
H1B is truly the new age slavetrade.
please, that kind of rhetoric isn't going to buy you any supporters. $73k, even in overpriced california, is hardly chump change, and a far cry from slavery.Actually, they are imported to ease the pressures in the supply-demand ratio. So one would expect their salaries to be lower.
Although I'm sure that's minor compared to that the company that pays them also sponsors their visas and renewals, thus granting them an awesome, plumb opportunity here in the US that they would not jeopardize.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
2: If you want to solve the problem (as a nation) then abolish the abuse of the H1b (or working-visa, or whatever). If you can't effectively "indenture" foreign nationals by holding the visa-noose around their necks, they're in exactly the same position as any other US citizen. They're on equal ground, and nobody can complain that they're cheaper for any reason other than that they're choosing to work for less. They can make the same demands as everyone else. Then it's up to US programmers to be more competitive, if that's how it plays out.
Good ol' free-market economy again. After all, isn't that the corner-stone of the US economy and society? Can't get more patriotic than that...
Meta will eat itself
Just read the Slashdot blurb, but this sentence implies this is an Apples and Oranges comparison:
"The average salary for a programmer in California is $73,960, according to the OES. The average salary paid to an H-1B visa worker for the same job is $53,387; a difference of $20,573"
Apples : programmer in CA
Oranges: H-1B visa worker
Not all H-1B visa workers are programmers in CA. I've got plenty of non-programmer friends on H-1B visas - designers, bankers, advertizers, marketing people, etc.
Simpy
H1-B's are predominately hired into entry-level positions, and as such their salaries should be expected to be lower than the average. Most of them are college freshouts who just completed a degree in the US, and have exhausted their student visas. They are paid the same as other new hires that are college freshouts. Trying to say that H1B's make less money than the average engineer is like saying a newly hired freshout makes less money than the average engineer. Duh. If you've ever been involved in hiring an H1B visa person, you know that you must fill out government paperwork documenting the salaries of staff in equivalent positions. The starting salary of that H1B cannot be less than those workers. In the real world you get a stack of 300 resumes. You pick out the top 30. You bring them in for interviews. By law, you're not allowed to ask what kind of visa they might be on, only if they can legally work in the US. You send out job offers to the best candidates. You then find out your top 3 choices need H1B's. You either pursue them or settle for the lesser qualified candidates. If you have the budget (it costs me more to hire an H1B) and your company hasn't exhausted its H1B quota, you go for the more qualified H1B candidate. Otherwise you settle for a lesser candidate.
Hiring people on H1B visas gives people from all over the world an opportunity to come work in the United States of America (tm).
The deal is excellent: a chance to start at the bottom. And stay there.
...laura, more than a little pissed off today (no, nothing to do with visas)
Is there really anything wrong with that? Most large companies already outsource many jobs overseas. Since these people are not citizens, they may plan on making some money here, and spending it at home to improve their life there. There's nothing wrong with that morally of course, but that would be bad for the US economy. I don't know many foreign people that have worked in the US, but the few I have have eventually gone back to their native country. I might go to Japan someday and work. I wouldn't expect to get full pay as a foreigner though since it might not go back into their economy. Now if I was registered as a citizen and wasn't getting equal pay, then it might be something to bitch about.... But in typical working situations, people that get payed are expected to just put the money back into the economy, and that doesn't always happen w/ non-citizens.
In undeveloped countries, the consumer controls the market. In capitalist America, the market controls you.
Skills are skills!
Companies usually pay for "bodies", not "minds". Ability and overall outcome are stressed, instead of individuality and the unique gems that arise there.
If you *can do without* some skills, while *raising* the overall ability of your unit while saving money, it's managerial effectiveness.
It may sound sterotypical in this screwy, post-P.C., post-civil rights world, but face facts: People from different regions of the world show extraordinary aptitude in differing areas. Some exhibit above average physical ability, some excel at mathematics, some at procedural thinking, some at economics and accounting, some at mechanical engineering, and specialties within those fields that may be shared by other groups.
For millions of years now, Earthlings have been specializing in their own cultures. Some of these cultures have endured for eons and flowered many, many times over. The development of social, logical, critical, and mathematical skills are common in every culture.
The distillation of abilities that have utility in this global marketplace, and their desirability based on quality and intensity is the same in essence as the Old World spice markets, fine perfumes or wines.
That in and of itself is a beautiful thing. However, like many other beautuful and powerful things, it can be used for Good or Evil. Mix politics and/or profit in there, and it can be a sour experience.
If you're opposed to H1Bs ask yourself a question... Are you using anything that wasn't made in America? Think of all the American jobs lost because you weren't checking for "Made in the USA". So why is it that cheap foreign labor is just fine when it makes your shoes and electronics cheap but "immoral" if it happens to affect the industry that employs you? The American car industry tried that in the early 80s and it backfired. Import tarrifs were needed to keep prices equal with the Japanese which raised prices for CONSUMERS un-naturally. Nobody wanted to pay the inflated prices so sales tanked costing 50,000 jobs. Sure, Americans working at the Honda dealership lost their jobs but at least the Japanese couldn't embarass us with their amazing productivity right?
I do not want to pay more for my stuff because you can't compete with foreigners. The alternative is that we just offshore the work in which case they don't spend money in America which is even "worse" for the economy. Please read Bastiat's famous plea to ban sunlight for the benefit of candlemakers if you disagree. They were making fun of this type of logic in the 1800s.
What if Digg added local news and a Slashdot inspired comment karma system? ---
http://houndwire.com
A study that lumps together people working in high-salary areas like Silicon Valley and people in areas that aren't as overhyped as the Valley is fundamentally flawed.
China is a slave labor state. The introduction of capitalism liberates the Chinese about as much as the slaves of Rome.
Until you can vote for the men who write your laws, Chinese labor will NEVER be able to effectively organize and raise their living standards.
All we are doing by trading with China is empowering the worlds new industrial plantation system. Cut'em off. Treat em like we did the Soviet Union (or benign Cuba).
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
John Miano's report compares salaries for job titles on H-1B disclosure forms with job titles from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
When they don't match up exactly (I would expect not too often), it seems he subjectively finds a match.
I'm not saying that H1 programmers make more or as much as natives, but I would suggest the methodology of this report is lacking. It probably doesn't mean anything. Especially when compared to the common sense knowledge we all have that if an employer can pay less for qualified employees, they will.
--Barry
To think, they could be spending more on their own countrymen and supporting their grossly disproportionate wages.
But that is exactly what they are doing with the H1-Bs: Spending more on their own countrymen (meaning members of their country club) and supporting their own grossly disproportionate wages. Disproportionate by any comparison: U.S. Executive to U.S. employee, U.S. executive to non-U.S. executive, U.S. executive/employee ratio to non-U.S. executive/employee ratio. Take your pick!
It's not the oppressed foreigner that takes advantage of the visas. They are just the smokescreen, the distraction intended to be the target of our ire. If we are the rich to the H1-B poor, then Robin Hood is actually King John and he's keeping 75% of what he takes. I doubt Robin Hood we be as famous for the description "He steals from the rich to make himself exceedingly rich, oh and to pay the poor a little".
The enemies of Democracy are
People start dragging out their same tired old positions on the topic of H1B visas and don't seem to be talking about the actual article. It's unsurprising. We have all decided our positions on the issue long ago. (Aren't we all just so Pavlovian?)
...anyway...
This article is about bringing to light some general evidence of illegal practices that are defrauding the U.S. Government. It's a serious crime that doesn't get punished often enough and it's pretty sad. I actually still believe in the whole free market drive. If programmers are available from somewhere else cheaper, then let it be. Maybe programmers are overpaid anyway. I don't know enough about it to really know if that's the truth or not. But when we're talking about defrauding the government in order to lower your businesses operating expenses, then I'd say someone needs to be held accountable and should be barred from holding office in a publically trade corporation.
Businesses that operate (and compete against others) using illegal activity should be shut down plain and simple. If the evidence offered by the article is skewed or incorrect then of course that should be discussed and wouldn't it be nice if we had evidence offered that would counter the article's assertion?
From my acquaintences I've found this generally not to be the case. The IRS really doesn't exert any effort to MAKE them pay taxes.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
There are two things that you actually have the power to do to help yourself:
Complain if you like, but above all, act.
Mike (trying to practice what he preaches)
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
The H-1B visa laws are produced by Congressmembers. Everyone in the House is up for election in just 1 year: find your Reprepresentative and snail mail them a polite letter telling them they don't represent you when they pass and support laws like the visa program. Find your Senator and do the same, though only the one up for election next year, if any, is going to pay any real attention. These people work for us, when we make them - but not until then.
--
make install -not war
If the companies are using the H1B workers to pay them $20,000/yr less, do you think they'll give them large raises. What if they don't? The H1B code monkeys aren't going anywhere, they'll work for $30,000/yr, it is still better than what they get in their home country. Most of them will underestimate the living expenses and will think they are getting a killer deal. It is like me, when I tell my family in Russia what I make here in America, they are all "ooh"-ing and "aah"-ing like I am some kind of a millionare, they don't know that my car insurance is $200/month and utilites another $150/month and car payments, mortgage, school loans etc etc
(Disclaimer: I'm a dirty foreigner caught in red tape)
I've had to go through a number of processes and trust me, H1B's are hardly "easy ways to get cheap labor" for employers.
Maybe you're forgetting that the usual visa cost for one of these is $20,000? Or that the visa only lasts for, at most, 5-6 years?
What about the fact that most cases where "dirty foreigners" are needed are in skilled creative fields like games, which also (suprise suprise) end up having lower salaries?
Or maybe that you have to apply about a year in advance, and that makes ultra-skilled people gravitate towards visas like the L-1 and the O-1(that can be renewed indefinitely), thereby skewing salary surveys?
If employers want cheap labor, they'll outsource to India, not go through years of government red tape and tens of thousands of dollars per employee.
H1B's are getting paid less does not come as a surprise. H1B's are called here just because they are comparably skilled AND can be paid less. I know a company that would only hire H1B's and then keep them under constant pressure of losing their job. This way they would work with their head down and mouth shut. Not exactly what the H1B's have heard about America (land of free)...not their fault either that they landed in this trap. However, I also believe this kind of exploitation and outsourcing has its roots in capitalism. Earlier in the previous century when the world was not so much open...technology could be kept confined but in this age...it is hardly the case. With technology pervasive, more people get into it and we start to see the blurring of lines. Today India and China are emerging markets/powers with lot of talent but in few years we might see smaller African and other countries claiming the piece of the pie. It is just technological and capitalistic evolution.
Oh wait those dudes came from India. Bummer.
As been iterated many times in these replies, any IT worker in the USA knows that H1B workers were hired to cut payroll expenses (not fill positions that were lacking in personnel). When the H1B workers were first allowed, it was supposedly under the condition that they would make the prevailing wage for the position they were filling. If that were the case, why were existing IT workers training H1B workers, who then replaced their trainers (who were consequently let go).
How many companies were prosecuted for violating the original rules about H1B replacements? I don't think any were!
The H1B program was (and is) a shame perpetrated by our legislators at the urging of business management. It did nothing for the US workers in the IT industry.
I've seen articles in regards to US students about "Why Johnny can't program". The real answer is, "Why should he?". To train an H1B worker to replace him?
When the management and executive positions are also taken over by H1B folks (it would save a lot more money than replacing the workers), then perhaps those folks will also get it.
That is the biggest and perhaps only problem I have with the system. If it were trivial for an h1b to say "hey...these guys are screwin' me, I'm going to work Spacely Sprockets across the street", then we would have a fair system. As it is, they are essentially indentured servants.
By putting so many regulations and restrictions on how H1B's can work, they've created indentured servitude. And surprise surprise this lets companies underpay them, which in turn allows them to undercut American labor much more effectively. Because of their fear of fair competition, they've encouraged the exact behavior they were seeking to avoid.
I'm personally of the opinion that we should open the borders wide, and let all residents be legal aliens. Like it was before the xenophobia early last century. Like back when poor immigrants came over and built the country and economy we so love today. Yes, it'll be ugly for a bit, and some native born people would have to compete with foreign born people, but survival of the fittest, right?
Cheers.
What do you do that makes less than $53,000 a year? I'm assuming it isn't a skill based profession, but more a blue collar job of some sort?
Disclaimer: I'm a college freshman and made $6,000 last year
Sig: I stole this sig.
If you don't want to be a US citizen then why are you living here in the first place??? With the exception of working for a global company and being transfered over here as an expat you should live where you want to be a citizen. Want to come work in the US? Sweet, come on in! Just be ready to stay a while and welcome home. :)
;)
Oh and stay away from California! I want the cost of living there to go down so I can move there and afford more than a shoebox.
-Xen
Most H1B's are folks who've been in the workforce for a relatively shorter period of time. Most H1Bs are actually dual-status, which means they are applying for a Green Card while working as an H1B. Green Card processing typically takes 4-5 years. They are not classified as H1Bs once they get their Green Cards - which coincides with them acquiring additional experience and raises.
I make more money now than when I was an H1B and it has nothing to do with my visa status and everything to do with the fact that I have more experience doing what I do now than I did before.
Mmmm.. Donuts
And I suppose the H1-B fresh of the Bangalore express can write better???
Jeero + Jeero = chree
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
Seastead this.
Oh yeah
What happens when the Chinese and Indians finally figure out that they don't NEED those milionaire suits in New York???
What happens when the US runs out of financial reserves and Beijing decides to stop buying US Treasury bonds????
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
I bet people raging against the "unethical" hiring of H1B's for less all behave the same way in other areas of life. All these companies are doing is what we all do when we buy something - look for the best deal we can get. Is it "unethical" for me to buy a PC with IC's made in Taiwan, where wages are lower for the fab workers, because it is cheaper than one made all in the US? Some people would probably say so, but how many /. ers complaining about low H1B wages wrote their post on a Taiwanese computer while drinking coffee grown and picked in Brazil and wearing a shirt made in China? Unless you are ready to put your money where your mouth is and start buying 100 % Made In The USA products regardless of the quality or cost, don't criticize the companies for taking the best deal available for labor.
From an article at Federal Reserve Bank: "The performance of productivity in the U.S. economy has delivered some big surprises over the last several years. One surprise was in the latter half of the 1990s, when productivity growth surged to average an annual rate of over 3%, more than twice as fast as the rate in the previous two decades. A bigger surprise has been the further ratcheting up...productivity growth averaged around 3.8% for the 2001 through 2004 period."
From TCS: "Annual economic growth in the eurozone has averaged less than 2 percent since 2000. The unemployment rate has averaged 9 percent thus far in 2005, compared to 5.1 percent in the U.S. Half of Germany's unemployed are classified as "long-term" compared to just 12 percent in the U.S."
I may have not been clear. It isn't just tech companies that are hiring H1B workers. Any company does. Also, there have been cases of individuals suing companies that laid off American workers before H1B workers.
My first reaction to this article has to be "Duh!". This should not be surprising to anyone who as been in the industry for any length of time. I find it incredible that companies can get away with complaining that they need H-1Bs to fill all of the positions that they have open when there are so many American workers looking for work. What they really mean is that they can't find any CHEAP labor to do the work. That our representatives in congress can't or won't see through this should not be a surprise since they rely on all of the companies that get the H-1Bs for their campaign contributions. Meanwhile, the average American worker gets screwed.
I live in the southern part of Silicon Valley, where the median cost of a home is $750K. If I had a family with just one child I couldn't stay where I am on the $53K figure you mention, and forget about ever buying a house.
In most cases, wages are driven directly by the cost of living in an area not by employee greed. And the cost of living in California is very high. That's why these low wages for H1B workers are such a concern. They may set an artificially low ceiling on entry level jobs in the sector. So we won't get any local recruits for those positions, then in 5 years we won't have any mid-career programmers here because we hired temps from overseas. In 15 years all our senior engineers will be looking to retire and there won't be anyone to replace them, so all the work will have to be sent overseas and the US's strategic advantage in software will have been completely destroyed.
Of course, if you own enough stock you have no worries right?
Hong Kong is not in China contrary to what you have heard . Hong Kong borders China and is not fully part of China until 2047. In 1997 the British started the hand over process to the Chinese, where the next 50 years the one country - two systems policy is being implemented. Hong Kong is designated SAR, which stands for Special Administrative Region. If you go to Hong Kong they will give you a free tourist visa at the airport and then if you try to cross over to China's border you'll probably need to buy a visa if you are American or citizen of several western countries due to diplomatic reciprocity fees. The American State Department also makes the distinction between China and Hong Kong SAR.
Rather than say, "Hey, you're trying to pay less for programmers!" we should be saying "Hey, are we getting paid too much? Are we pricing ourselves out of positions?"
No. Any cheap work that could be done overseas is already being done overseas. The work that's left in the US would stay in the US regardless of what pay programmers demand. So, companies can only reduce the amount they pay in wages by artifically increasing the workforce and reducing the demand for high-skilled workers.
This has nothing to do with "free" trade in labor and everything to do with market manipulation. These companies do not want to deal with the free market as it's currently structured. So, instead of dealing in the free market, they'd rather redefine the labor market in their terms.
These companies would rather have completely open borders in the US where everyone from everywhere could freely enter. We've already heard Bush say exactly that. Labor costs in the US would plummet. So would the standard of living, but companies and the current administration don't actually care. The only reason they don't push that through now is that they've been pounding security for the last four years. Also, the majority US citizens, both Democrats and Republicans, don't want any more foreigners entering the country to take away jobs. If anything, people want the foreigners to leave so we could actually get some work and decent pay raises around here.
My wife is an H1A nurse from the Philippines. Well, used to be, she's a citizen now. Anyway, she came over here long before I met her and worked for a company that "sponsored" her.
The company was a nursing home that was staffed almost entirely by foreign nurses that were being paid below the prevailing wage. Their problem wasn't in attracting nurses, it was simply that they wanted to pay less.
This same home had a fire a year or two ago that killed some patients, and it turned out that they didn't have sprinklers.
My observation of the medical industry is that facilities don't want to pay what nurses require, so they end up hiring foreign nurses if they're lucky. If they're not lucky, they end up paying twice what they'd pay a staff nurse to get someone from an agency.
Anyway, this is a two-sided issue. On one side, my wife started making more when she met me and I told her to simply ask for more money. She went to one place where they offered her $13/hour (with 7 or 8 years of experience at the time). Not surprisingly, she ended up working there through an agency for $35/hour at one point. God only knows what they were paying the agency for her time, probably more than $13/hour.
In the Filipino culture, it would be disrespectful to ask for more money of an employer, so they end up hurting over here. I mean this literally, the thought never crossed my wife's mind to ask for more money until she'd met me. Even then, it took a lot for her to get over it. The difference in pay is very significant.
Now, the other side. She was making PHP15K/month as a nurse when she left the Philippines. In US dollars, that's about $300. Actually, less now due to exchange rates. In terms of cost of living, that would be below the poverty line here. Even the $13/hour would be big bucks. It's all a matter of perspective.
Anyway, a lot of people are just happy to have a job, something we often lose site of here in the US. Still, there's no excuse for screwing people. And paying somebody less for the same work just because they won't complain is immoral.
It's also illegal. The Dept. of Labor has standards for H1A and H1B, and the workers are (by law) to be paid the same wages as an American. Of course, you can't legally hire them if an American is available to do the work, either.
I can't complain, I have a beautiful wife because of H1A.
Do you have ESP?
There should be only 1 visa type. People should not come in based on Job description. What we are doing is giving the store away. There are a lot of H1B's who come to learn then take it home. H1B's come not just as programmers but scientists as well. How do their countries feel about patents? The US corporations are selling out our country with H1B's, illegal immigrants and out-sourcing to make money. No one better complain when Iran has nukes, China and India has a bigger military , and business engine than us. In a couple years India, China, US, Europe will be fighting over oil. It will be too late but that's when the public will realize that the politicians and corporations sold us down the drain.
You forgot about the Lawyers who insinuate themsevles here and there, much the same ways fleas attach to a passing animal.
You need
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I work in the silicon valley in a big tech company. I am under H1B, like most of the people in my team... Like in my previous company it is really really hard to find good people: american or not. I'm pretty sure the silicon valley couldn't exist or wouldn't be what it is now without people coming from abroad. As for the salaries... not sure where the guy who wrote the article got the numbers, certainly not at the companies I've been working at. As for the skills... The usa have an history based on immigration ever since its creation. Which generation are you? 2nd, third, ... would you have refused your grand parents on Ellis island?
I wrote my senior honors thesis in economics on this exact subject--the effect of H-1B visas on labor outcomes--and the results aren't nearly as clear cut as this guy is making them out to be. For one thing, there are no reliable data on H-1B entries or employment. You can get a database of LCA filings from the Department of Labor, but it is really noisy because there are hardly any rules for the employers who are filing. There's no guarantee the visa was ever issued, or the person ever took the job and immigrated. You can file one LCA for 4 people, or you can file 10 for the same guy. Because it's so easy to file many times, of course employers have an incentive to start low and work up when it comes to prevailing wage declarations. Also I remember someone at Labor telling me the entire LCA certification process is "a joke", so I'd be really hesitant to place a lot of faith in anything actually contained on them. Also, I can't find any link to the report on the Programmers' Guild website, but I'd be curious to know if those means were statistically different given all the variation I observed in the underlying data when I was looked at it.
/. and elsewhere.
Rather that examining what the LCAs were claiming, I took the different tack of treating them as simply a crude measure of demand for foreign workers. I built a panel dataset over MSAs and quarters and could not uncover any statistically significant partial effect of LCA filings on wages or employment, even when controlling for a bunch of other socioeconomic factors, endogeneity, and fixed effects.
A better economist could certainly do more with this, but my adviser and I ultimately agreed that there is essentially no empirical evidence to support the claim that "H1B=bad", so often repeated on
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
Bullshit. You see theres more to this world than flipping burgers and writing video games. Flipping burgers requires basal knowlege, writing video games requires a good background (college) if you want to do it right. But for more specialized work you might just need that extra knowlege that comes from a masters or Ph.D.
-everphilski-
By the time the H1-B's gain their experience they will get the green card and won't be counted for the statistics of H1-B. The average income of foreign nationals in USA in $88,000 per annum, while for americans its $51,000
Actually H1B workers have to make 95% of the Prevailing Wage by law. Their employer sends a list of their credentials to the Labor Dept. for that, and they have to pay at least 95% of what the Labor Dept. says an American worker would make for the same job. If there's a problem, it's because the Labor Dept. is lying (or just uninformed) as to how much the job is worth in the area, not because the employer is underpaying them. Or it is possible that the other programmers are all overpaid what they're worth :)
Nice study.
Would it be surprising to find that recent college graduates make less than programmers by average? Not really. So why is this study comparing H1B worker salaries to the industry average when it's commonly known a large majority of H1B workers are younger, and a lot of them recent college graduates, and with less experience than the industry average and would naturally make less money than the industry average?
They should've really hidden their bias a little better. But I'm sure this "study" will get widely quoted by blowhards like Lou Dobbs with no fact checking whatsoever. Infoworld appears to already have done so. Well done!
In Soviet Russia, I ruled you
There is a mandate for each congressional committee to come up with some savings to compensate for such brilliant expenditures as Alaska's bridge to nowhere. So the Senate Judiciary Committe has recently passed a proposal that will make them some money while satisfying their corporate masters. Businesses will be able to buy hundreds of additional green cards and H-1B visas to keep their labor costs low http://www.numbersusa.com/hottopic/H1B.html.
vs. looking at years of experience or education vs. pay
Why should an employer look at those two things when job performance should be the primary salary measurement? We just let a unix admin go who had 20+ years of "experience" and a college degree. That means 20+ years of screwing up servers in DC's accross the continental US. Nice guy, but I wouldn't let him touch a PC with a 10 foot pole.
In contrast, I've been in the industry since 94. I have no diplomas (not even high school), but have "the mother-f'ing force" when it comes to working with huge app clusters and complicated enterprise applications.
BBH
To my educational credit, I was a professional cook before getting into computers....
by means of share-holder's resolution. Check out this article below.
o rporate_governance/MediaMen
http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/olin_center/c
tions/WSJ_Winning_Apr.11.2005.pdf
If ALL sharesholders demand this of their CEOs, then there would be no excuse about needing to pay up for talents.
There are plenty of home grown qualified workers in the United States to fill our high tech needs. Companies that say they need H1-B's are lying and paying off their congressmen to get more H1-B's every year.
The heck it doesn't - nothing else drives per capita growth in a positive direction while a population is increasing!
Arnold Kling is author of Learning Economics. From his article at TCS: "Labor productivity is perhaps the most important statistic in the economy. Over time, output per worker is what drives wage rates and the standard of living."
"Technological innovation is what drives productivity growth. Kurzweil argues that the rate of technological innovation is doubling every decade, which to me would imply that the rate of productivity growth will double every decade. If annual productivity growth was 3.5 percent in the decade ending in 2005, then it will be 7 percent in the decade ending in 2015 and 14 percent in the decade ending in 2025. By that time, productivity would be more than 7 times what it is today. Thus, if average income per person is $35,000 today, then it will be over $250,000 per person (in today's purchasing power) in 2025."
I'm still wondering where the money in these post-boom years. I've a programmer in New England for the last 6 years... and I still have yet to break out of the 40's. I don't know if it's poor salary negotation skills or what, but there seems to be very limited opportunities as to what I can do and what pay is available for these things. I'm a pretty decent Java,C* and .Net developer- but not quite advanced enough to do EJB, Websphere,etc apps. It seems like the really big stuff, you can't get into anyway unless you've apprenticed in it already under a big company somewhere.
Blender And Linux Fan
I was living in San Jose in 1999 on annual equivalent of $50k, living in a comfortable 2 bedroom apartment (with a roomate) and I could make payments on my small car. I even saved money.
Could I support a family on that? No. If I had a live at home wife and 1 child, then yes, $90k would likely be a necessary salary.
-Stu
I have 8 years of tech experiences, including 6 as an IT administrator/help desk specialist. I left my job to join the Army, got hurt in basic training. When I returned, I could not find tech work anywhere. I did Monster.com, I did CareerBuilder, I sent my resume to everyone, civil service, you name it. I did this for almost a year, no results. In the meantime, I had to work at Staples for $8/hour. Of course, it took me over a month just to get this job. I was so desperate, I was applying at McDonald's, local supermarkets, you name it because I was getting literally no calls back for any tech work other than temp jobs. I have a wife and kid and I wanted a permanent position. Eventually, I was able to get a $34k job through a temp agency, which ended up being a permanent position, but it is in a call center as a compliance investigator for a pharmaceutical company. I was discharged from the Army in June 2004. I used to make $63k working for the federal government in IT before I left. Now my wife has to work full-time at Taco Bell for $7/hr plus do weekend work as a home health aide for $8/hr just so we can keep up with all the debt incurred during the 9 months I was stuck with no job or with Staples.
Don't tell me that H1B has no bearing on availability of jobs. I called the IT department at one place I used to work at to get a reference, and no one was still there from when I worked there (1997-1998). Every single name on the greeting was Russian or Chinese.
I'm very well qualified, but not hireable because why would someone pay me $60k-70k when they can get someone who doesn't have the experience, but might have a little more education and get them to work for $40k-50k? It's simple economics.
Think about this next time you vote Republican.
Either tax them at a rate to more than cover the salary difference for that particular job, or auction them off on a weekly basis, with a "use it or lose it" clause meaning you have to have a candidate in mind and the visa is ONLY good for that particular candidate.
After 3 years, make the company compete for a new auction and if they don't bid high enough the guy has to go home.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
You contribute nothing to this country. You take the money and leave and bring your experience and money back to Europe. Meanwhile, poor Joes like us have to struggle unemployed or underemployed trying to keep our families fed, bills paid, and a roof over our heads so that we can live here!
It really pains me to say this, since my wife is an immigrant from Angola. But I seriously think we need to close the borders. And we need to penalize (tax heavily) any company that has a presence abroad. Set high tariffs. Let's not subsidize the rest of the world anymore. They want us to consume, consume, consume. Well, two things here: A) If we don't have jobs, we won't have money to spend. B) If you want our money, then keep your business here, hire Americans, and contribute to our society rather than leeching from it. Do you think China would put up with this crap if they were in our position? Hell no! And we shouldn't either!
H1-B's are not supposed to be imported for the lower-tech jobs unless there is a scarcity of native talent for those lower-tech jobs. H1-B's are expected to be as trained, or more so, than their American counterparts. That's what the Benedict Arnold CEO's keep telling us - the supply of US tech talent is lacking. They have to import highly qualified people to continue innovating.
If what you say is true - H1-B's are less skilled - then the author's argument is strengthened.
Most people in the tech market today tend to feel that H1-B's are really being used to decrease salary pressure. If you're qualified but demand $80,000/yr, well they can just hire an H1-B at $60,000/yr. That's not what H1-B's are for.
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
And I was considering leaving computers and devote fulltime to cooking. hehe
This is sort of related to how I see Bill Gates' recent tour of American colleges to promote CS degrees. He sees a shortage of CS workers and that we need more. How I see it, and it may be cynical but seems more realistic, is that he is trying to get IT workers who have American educations, American productivity levels, but at imported worker salary.
What?
I agree with you for the most part, but everybody makes mistakes.
On the spelling front, for example, you misspelled the word "pity".
On the grammar front you forgot an "a"; "I work with a couple of American". (Yes, that's with a capital "a", too.)
Lastly, your first sentence would be more proper if it would read "Spelling and Americans ? You must be kidding me!!!" or "Spelling and Americans - you must be kidding me". The form in which you've written it now seems to indicate that you are saying "you must be kidding me" to both Americans and a person who goes by the name of "Spelling".
--
That said - who cares ? I've seen similar errors in letters written directly by CEOs (not passing through their secretaries/etc.) and even in press releases. It *would* be nice to hold everybody to a high standard to help keep it up, but I think it's far too late.
Why would they need that capital when we're pouring money into China via cheap manufactured goods???
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
The Beatles had a thick British accent that virtually disappeared when they sung.
Likewise, I'm sure that the butchered grammar of oh so many Indian and Chinese programmers just melt away when they translate it into the printed word. And I suppose the simple ability to converse and be understood in English is also over-rated???
Jeerio!!!
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
Especially nurses, there is hugh shortage of nurses.
Actually, I know the reason why. The medical field is controlled, IT is not.
Well, taxes don't work EXACTLY like that. There are all kinds of things you can do with a W-2 form.
Just remember, you do file those things called TAXES at the end of the year. If withholding took care of all of it, there would be no need for filing.
For all you know oh so many H1-B are claiming EXEMPT status. And why wouldn't the companies go along with it??? They wouldn't have to match payroll taxes. And if the H1-Bs aren't filing, the IRS aren't going after them!!!
But lets not mince words over H1-B taxation. Lets go wholesale for the LZ-1s that are more numerous for the simple fact that they are unlimited. LZ-1s aren't required to pay income taxes. So I don't know why any sane accountant would allow them to fill in a W-2 without making them check the EXEMPT box which would save the company even MORE money.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
Except it won't- because American employers have a tendency to take the increased profits from increased productivity and give the C-level executives bonuses and the stockholders dividends instead of sharing that money with the workers.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Of course, you're probably used to the idea that in a socialist country, your taxes actually go towards contributing to society. Here in America, your paying taxes does nothing but offset tax breaks given to the wealthy, incentives for companies to do business abroad, and pursue a foreign policy of domination and world hegemony. In the meantime, most of us are forced to take jobs that we are overqualified for and underpaid at just to get some kind of health insurance for our families. After all, the poverty level is set ridiculously low in this country. You have to be almost penniless to qualify for any kind of government assistance (or super-rich, then the government will gladly throw tax breaks and incentives your way). There are days when I have actually had to miss work because I couldn't afford gas to put in the car because I spent it on food. I miss qualifying for food stamps by something like $2000 a year income. Think about that. Between my wife and myself, we have three jobs, and still every last penny we earn goes to pay rent, utilities, gas, and food. I am three months behind paying bills because we had some emergency medical and dental bills come up, and we have insurance! Only in America! Honestly, look at it from my perspective. I'd love to get a job in Germany and have all the benefits a German citizen would have while I'm there. And I speak better German than most guest workers in the US speak English! But it would never happen... it doesn't work like that. We are entirely too accommodating to other peoples of the world without any sort of reciprocation. We are being taken advantage of, and we are the ones hurting from it. Forget Germany for a second. Do you think that Chinese companies are going to try to hire out-of-work American programmers? And do you think the Chinese government is going to provide all the benefits of society to the American guest worker, including equal protection under the law, that America provides to its guests? No!! It's about time that we started demanding an even playing field on the world labor stage. American workers have a right to the same standard of living as European workers. And we also have the same right as the Europeans to keep foreigners from taking our livelihoods away from us. Excuse me if you think I'm being a little harsh on foreign workers. I don't mean to be. My wife is a very recent immigrant from Africa. The problem is not the foreign workers. The problem is America. And the H1B program is just one more symptom of a larger problem of America selling out its own people so that the elite can amass greater fortune.
Local governments can easily stop globalization. They can even introduce central planning and economic autarchy. (Globalization has no effect on North Korea's economy, for instance.)
Anyone who has been in the computer industry for more than a few months knows this. Its prevalent everywhere. Don't let them say "there aren't enough engineers to go around", thats pure horse hockey. HIB workers arre cheaper, plain and simple.
H1-B workers also makes it easier to hire a few people with degrees from a handfull of ivy-league or otherwise exceptionally reputable (among suits) schools for core teams, people from India and the like for the bulk of the rest of the slots, and ignore anybody who's black, hispanic, female, and/or educated in a state college. (And claiming such are unqualified helps perpetuate the myth that there are no "qualified" applicants available, giving them an excuse to hire the cheaper H1-Bs.)
Helpful hints:
- Intelligence is not confined to people who were able to attend one of about three high-prestige schools, are male, and are white or oriental.
- Technical expertese - especially in computer-related subjects - is not developed solely in a set of schools you can count on one hand with fingers left over.
(For starters: the bulk of the actual rocket scientists have a southern or western accent.)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
What he said.
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
The point is that some people are worth a little, some people are worth a lot, and an elite few people really are worth a complete and utter fortune on the market. There is little sense in pretending that this is not so, whatever you think of Robin Hood.
http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/archives/2005/10 /many_more_skill.html
(Gary Becker, 1992 Nobel laureate)
I feel a bit tired today, so I decided to pick on an easy troll to squash, for my personal amusement.
PhDs are granted for NOVEL research, dude/dudette. Someone with a PhD basically means he/she has knowledge in some (however esoteric) field that nobody else has.
Ah! That feels better. Now back to the salt mines.
Mode (3) smart-aleck mode. Press * to return to main menu.
Actually I've been posting on /. for years. I don't know why it took me this long to actually register. It never really bothered me being "Anonymous Coward". Actually, it's one of the things that drew me to /. because I always hate registering. :-)
But you make an interesting point about MCSA salary being on average $47k (in 2003). The problem is that no one seems to care that I have years of experience as a NetWare/UNIX administrator. Because I don't feel like spending a couple thousand dollars to get the all-holy certification that puts those magic letters "CNE" or "CSA" next to my name, my resume probably goes right into the round file. It used to kill me years ago when I would go on interviews and potential employers would ask me if I had MCSE certification for NT 4.0. And I would ask them why I should spend my hard-earned cash to have some instructor with probably 3 months experience with Windows NT certify me in an operating system I have been doing installations and maintenance of since Advanced Server 3.1.
I've been programming since 1981. I know just about every operating system that runs on an x86 processor inside and out (and quite a few that don't run on x86). The problem is that no one wants to hire a hacker. They want to hire alphabet soup!
God forbid you should actually know what you're doing. It's more important that you pay into the system and shell out big bucks to Microsoft, Novell, Sun, et al. I've been hacking on Linux since the .99 kernel for crying out loud. I remember the fscking SLS distribution and how Patrick Volkerding started Slackware as an improvement upon SLS, back when your choices of Linux distro were basically SLS and TAMU or hack your own. Why on earth should I have to pay Red Hat money to get certified when I've been on Linux since before there was a Red Hat?!
Actually, one of the things I probably had going for me at my government job was that they had an old VAX that everyone was afraid of that had been inherited from the previous administration. They seemed to like the fact that I actually knew my way around VMS. But I suppose that's probably a unique thing in the public sector. In the corporate world, they'd probably just shell out for a support contract from whoever Digital's successor is these days (Intel?) and have them deal with it rather than hiring someone in house to maintain it.
as they're both making 5 to 7x what i'm making i don't care.
So, the major needs of life (housing, education, a car, fuel) are rising in cost faster than the inflation index says, while jobs are either vanishing or giving no raises. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that eventually you won't have any local/US purchasers of houses and products at the inflated costs they are now. So, it'll have to pop.
You know, you're right.
But it got me to thinking... everybody and everything but the *shareholders* are a liability. Everything from the actual product the company makes (or service) up to the CEO. It doesn't provide any increase in the value of the company's product.
So... how much did your company economize on the CEO position this year?
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
For all the hot air from Bill Clinton about his massive H1-B quotas being good for u.s. and the hot air from current slashdotters about George Bush killing innovation by banning H1-B's, the simple explanation ended up the right one. H1-B's are for making money.
No-one increases H1-B quotas to help u.s. dominate technology. No-one buys technology from India to give us all promotions. No-one raises gas taxes to help the environment. These things are done to make money. That's the only reason they are done.
What about people who've grown up in the United States almost all of their life, but since they were not born here, get merely stuck after high school?
I have a friend like this. An F-1 visa, I think. Basically the way it was explained to me they must pay out-of-state tuition fees, can't work, and once out of college must get some fairly large corporation to sign off that they are needed or something like that. And this is a person who's lived here since they were like 5 or 6. I doubt they even remember their home country.
Do we really think it's fair to treat these non-citizens this way? Consider this: Immagration is a real thing. Almost every country has it. It is a way for people from other countries to move to ours. I don't know about the culture as it stands nationally, but at least here in California we tend to embrase diversity. Sure, opening up the business world to foreigners lowers the average pay, but one could argue on a global scale that this aids towards a globalization of an economy still quite disoriented.
And all that aside, think of the innocent lives of what I would argue American adults who grew up here but as they enter adulthood find their oppertunities shunted in the name of protecting our standards of living.
This is unethical and wrong and someone needs to make a stand for it.
http://pixelcort.com/
I have an internet connection because it costs $70 plus the cost of calls to have Verizon phone service. Or, I can get cable internet for $50 plus unlimited calling on VoIP for $20. Do the math. A telephone is a necessity. The problem is that no one wants to fix the educational system in this country. No one wants to be told that their kid isn't "good enough"/"smart enough" to study academics. So everyone goes to college, even the less intelligent who would be better off learning a manual trade. What this does is water down the academic environment and dumb it down so that the ones who probably ought to be pursuing higher studies don't bother. I have a 144 IQ and I became totally disillusioned with the whole idea of going to school when I realized that I was taking harder classes than other students in my school, but you know what? We would end up with the same grades and the same diploma in the end. I worked harder and probably had more talent, yet I don't get any advantage by that. The only thing that really acts as any sort of real qualifier for higher learning are standardized test scores because they are standardized. But now you have this whole movement trying to discredit the SAT and make it so that the playing field is more even. The problem is that not everyone has the same intellectual potential. But in America, "all men are created equal." A real problem. Not to mention that education is way too expensive. Too many high-priced private institutions and even the public institutions that are academically decent cost thousands of dollars to attend. If we had the same educational standards in place that are seen abroad, things would be much better for us here in the US.
The article didn't make mention of the recently passed H-1 (and L-1) reform act that went into effect this summer. It requires that such workers be paid the higher of two salaries: (a) OES published salaries, or (b) what the company pays others for such work. Not to say that this can't be abused, but the old system made salary abuse by the employer much easier.
No, George Washington discovered that it was not, in fact, more efficient to have slaves. That was one of the reasons he wanted to free his slaves. He found that they did poor work unless you had overseers (who had to be paid), They would do anything to get out of work, they had to be clothed and fed, and so forth. He had ethical reasons as well, but the economic reasons were very serious.
I cried real tears when Li Mu Bai died.
Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, and Dan Quayle were in a little friendly spelling bee.
Guess who won?
Nope, it was Dan Quayle. The word was "harass."
Quayle was the only one who knew it was one word.
I cried real tears when Li Mu Bai died.
Your comment about "lack of skill" is complete horseshit. And if you're going to go on about paying your employees less, then don't whine when they spend less and you find your business in bankruptcy.
Consumer spending is 2/3 of the economy and lowering their wages has a direct and immediate effect on corporate profits, especially now that the bankruptcy laws have changed.
If you pay people less then where will they get the money to buy your products and services? Simple question, you should be able to answer it.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
This is not about outsourcing. This is about bringing low wage workers into the U.S. to avoid paying the going wage in the U.S. By law, companies are required to pay H1B workers what they would pay a U.S. worker. Instead, the companies are paying the workers less and avoiding hiring U.S. IT workers.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Following that logic, why not just open the borders and let everybody in? Why flood *only* IT? Why should I have to pay protected doctor and protected auto-mechanic prices, yet get a non-protected IT salary? Either screw all or screw none.
Table-ized A.I.
it's supposed to find highly-skilled workers that can't be found on the local job market NOT fill up entry level positions with underpaid workers.
Further, efforts by some groups to electronicly publish H-1B requests on the web was rebuffed. If there was a "shortage", one should invite free job advertizing. Yet more evidence the lobbyists don't want citizens.
Table-ized A.I.
Over the years I have learned that one has to protect his/her own political turf. Congress will NOT do what is right and fair on their own; something has to push them in the opposite direction of campaign contributions.
Learn from the BAR association or the NRA. They know how to protect what they want and have. If us geeks don't learn at least some of the same game, we will be the next agricultural workers.
Merit won't save you, only postpone the inevitable. Do you think the very best agricultural citizen worker is happy about what happened to agricultural work?
Table-ized A.I.
The truth is that when people from foriegn countries come here, they use freedoms and opportunities that they don't have elsewhere to create wealth and opportunities that never existed before. They don't just sit on their ass and leach ... they invest, they open businesses, they hire or lead to new hiring, they produce, they consume, and just add value to our overall society as immigrants have for over 500 years in the Americas.
While our standard of freedom has declined over the last few decades, it is still orders of magnatude greater than most of the real world. But lets make no mistake: our economic freedoms have declined because of our own taxes, regulations, debt, and most especially bad monitary policy. To blame any wealth or pay squeese (other than perhaps short term ones) on on foriegners coming here and using the increased freedom here to create success is totally unfair and niaeve.
As a white American programmer/sysadmin from a midwestern USA family, I am truely embarassed that my cluture is being so mean to the foriegners. In all truth, we should be begging for them to be here and thanking them profusely for hanging their hat in the USA and and choosing us as a place to create future wealth and opportunity. In all truth, we should pratically be kissing their feet in thatkfullness that they are willing to be productive in the USA for only a fraction of the cost that it would normally take. In stead we hate their guts and ignorantly slander that "they are stealing our jobs" like an ignorant mob on a whitch hunt.
All I can say is that if you are from a foriegn country seeing this, I beg in humiliation, please forgive us. Too many people just don't know what the hell they are talking about. Please, in behalf of my country, I really beg your forgiveness - I am at a loss for words, I cna't even begin to offer a justification.
I sincerely hope that the foriegners we have treated soo poorly are more forgiving, understanding, and tolerant than we are. If not, it will be a bad omen as in the next few years over a billion people will be comming online to the global economy. God help us.
I migrated from the UK to live in California 10 years ago. I've been a permanent resident for over 5 years now.
I can tell you that when you go through H1-B or any type of employment based VISA the INS checks your salary falls within a range and will deny your application if you are not in band.
This report is bogus trolling, utter rubbish.
I can also tell you when I moved here I was making more than many of my American counterparts, experience counts baby !
An H1-B fresh out of Uni will definitely be paid less than an H1-B with 20 years experience, same goes for citizens.
Companies are also not this dumb. The INS WILL investigate your company and WILL cause a whole pant load of trouble if you do this.
However, I suspect H1's are not asking for signing bonuses, massive stock grants and obscene moving expenses.
In the UK I was blissfully unaware of all of those. I moved here by fedexing my most treasured possesions, sold the rest and showed up with a suitcase and re-bought everything I needed.
I think they reimbursed me for around a total of $500 - $600 and paid for the air ticket.
I've hired people moving from Seattle to the bay area that have presented me with $20k in moving expenses.
Doh !
Oh, those poor exploited H1-B visa workers.
Imagine this scenario:
Tomorrow, we in the west are contacted by the aliens of Planet UltraFirstWorld.
The aliens of UltraFirstWorld speak English. And they need lots and lots of robotics engineers, sysadmins, perl programmers, and customer support folks. Because they are a very wealthy society, they can pay $1 million / year for every techie who goes over there.
So, they set up a visa program whereby Earthlings can travel there, work for a year, and come back home.
Go for one year, and you can buy yourself a McMansion inside Rt 128, or a sweet loft in San Francisco, and all the stuff from ThinkGeek you could ever want.
Go for a few years, and you can come back and catapult your entire family into the upper class.
Oh...but wait, there is one hitch.
Alien techies from UltraFirstWorld earn $2 million / year, not the mere $1 million / year they're offering you.
It turns out that, in accordance with the fundamental laws of economics, you are only being offered the job because hiring more UltraFirstWorld alien techies would cost the firms $2 million or more a year. Doubling the size of all-alien tech staff would require giving bonuses to tempt alien lawyers and doctors into engineering...that might cost $3 million / year.
So, see, by paying you only $1 million / year, they're exploiting you.
What the software industry of planet UltraFirstWorld should *really* (a) raise wages for natives from $2 million to something higher; (b) tell you to stay home and keep earning $60 or 90 k on Earth.
Who benefits from such a proposal?
Not consumers. They end up paying more for products and services produced at $3 million / year, instead of $1 million.
Not Earthlings. We end up earning $80k instead of $1 million.
Not the UltraFirstWorld companies: they have to pay higher wages and work hard to recruit extra workers.
Only one group benefits: the semi-skilled and semi-employed aliens who would have been hired if the supply of workers was artificially constrained.
Why should this group be privileged over all of the other groups? What makes them so special?
So with all that in mind, does anyone know any good sites for searching for companies that don't mind applying for H1-B visas?
I'm British and wouldn't mind working in the U.S. for a while.
Thanks!
Many H1-Bs were stranded during the dot.com bust. However the state department suspended the requirement they return home, allowing them to stay if had applied for a green card. In earlier years they would have been requiredto return home if they hadnt found a new position in 12 months.
the higher your salary is. This is why salesmen get junkets, er, Team Bulding Strategy Meetings in Cancun, while the engineers can't get get money to cover the cost of driving to a nearby one-day convention.
Salesmen? They bring the business in, so they can say "Before I turn this contract over to you, what are you going to do for me?" Laywers? They help you hang on to money. At $200/hr. Engineers? They only make things. They're craftsmen. Dime a dozen. Italian stone cutters. Replacable parts. They don't manipulate wealth, they just generate it. Like plankton converts light into usable enery.
People are our greatest resource. And what do you do with resources? You exploit them. Woah! Leaning a little bit too far to the left, here. God Bless America! God Bless our President! God Bless our Inteligence Services. Did I miss anybody?
Bitter? Me, Bitter? Nah.
"If god did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him" --Voltaire
I've been hiring H1Bs for 10 years, in Silicon Valley and now in New York. Trust me, if there is ANY discrepancy in what H1B holders get vs US engineers, they'll find out and let you know before they've unpacked their wife's sari! It's very simple: if the market is hot, as it was in the late 90's, they'll find another company willing to pay them more, the H1B transfer won't be an obstacle. Quickly the market will settle at the same level as US engineers: there's no reason why it would not. Now there may be some temporary market discrepancy in difficult times: H1B holders may hesitate to jump ship when jobs are scarce. But in that case you can rely on congress to endorse the appropriate demagogic rethoric and cut down on the number of visas!
comapnies use education credentials and experience as benchmarks for filtering out the obvious misfits. some of them are exceptions like in your case where the force was with you. However I dont think companies have time to look in restaurent kitchens and soliciting sweaty chefs for their next super sys-admin. :)
I don't doubt that it's possible to abuse the system, but it's amazingly shortsighted. My company would be willing to spend *more* if we could get competent people. The value of a single great hire is multiple times their salary, and we know it. It's just hard to find good (not "meets minimum standards", but "good") US candidates, and that's the calibre of people we need. When you look at the pool of qualified candidates for entry-level semicustom ASIC design, it's about 80% foreigners, most of whom will need an H1-B or other visa to work for us. Usually they came to the US to go to grad school, so they are currently on a student visa. I think this also accounts (in my company) for the wage differential - H1-B holders are usually new hires. In 4-6 years they've gotten their green card, gotten married, bought a house, and been promoted at least once. They're becoming Americans, too, or their kids will be. I guess I'd like to hire more US citizens, in theory, but the quality just isn't there.
You know, if less yahoos thought 53k was not enough money, they'd have more job security. koff koff.
Karma: Bad is the liberal way of saying this guy won't drink the kool aid here on slash dot. I wear my Karma with pride
You have to understand the amount of experience / education someone has tends to correlate with there overall usefulness. I am more useful now than I was 3 years ago because I learned something and I was slightly more useful after collage than before.
Now some people are not going to become competent just because they do something for 20 years and others are going to grow bored after a while and not really care but overall on average relevant experience and education tend to help people do their jobs. Which is why people tend to get paid more when they have more experience doing it (up to a point)
Thus when looking at large groups of people when I group them by years of exp I will probably find that more exp = more pay. Now I know a lot of H1B's and most of them have far less experience than the average US coder but more education. I think H1B's average about 5-10 years less real world experience than the non H1B coders in my company so I would expect the H1B's to be paid less because of that.
PS: I know we look for cheep H1B's, but there is a basic cost to the H1B program which adds to the cost of hiring them. There is also language and cultural issues that add to the overall cost, but if you want a clear picture we should be looking at more than just the job title. My guess is that experienced H1B's get paid close to but less than the non-H1B people after considering the costs of the H1B program. (You also need to ignore jobs that require security clearances, which H1B's are ineligible for and tend to pay more.)
I was paying more than $10k/year rent living in South Jamaica, Queens... $10k/year you can't even afford to live in one of the most crime-ridden, disgusting places in America!
You can't compare apples and oranges here. World per capita income may be $10k/year, but the cost of living, largely driven by taxation and greed, is much different in the US than in other places.
From what I've seen of the hiring of H-1Bs, there is no actual "competitive vetting" process occurring. The US Corp. simply approaches - or is approached by - an outsourcing firm, which brings in the supposedly qualified software engineer types for said project. Usually, it's a miracle if they don't royally screw things up....
I don't know why you people disregard the fact that HIB are also skilled workers. This is very unfair to them. Companies hiring them don't just do it because they are cheap. They do it because they can still get the quality of work like most of you do yet they have to pay lower.
I don't know why you people disregard the fact that HIB are also skilled workers. This is very unfair to them. Companies hiring them don't just do it because they are cheap. They do it because they can still get the quality of work like most of you do yet they have to pay lower.
Having just delivered an enterprise application marketed by a Fortune 100 company, which was co-designed by myself and another employee ( who turned out to be an H1B ), I can PERSONALLY vouch for this process. Mind you, we lucked out, but that's because myself and another guy at the company did his technical interview, and the (so-called) Director didn't get involved other than to "cull the herd" of resume's.
Hint: The guy who was finally brought in, was the 6th person we had interviewed for the position, having gotten resumes from Monster, HotJobs, and a couple of recruiting firms. It took 8 months to bring him in. Mind you, there WERE other folks who we interviewed who WERE qualified, but frankly, from what I understand of their reaction to a job offer ( those who were even offered a job ), the salary they were offered was SIGNIFICANTLY lower than what the position called for.
You have dodged the issue. The issue is whether employees are filing their income tax returns and whether the correct amounts are being with-held.
Our income tax system has been set into an "honor" system. The IRS now lacks it's once legendary ability to make your life a living hell if you fail to file.
I have heard more than one H1-B contracter laughing over their recalcitrance in paying their INCOME taxes (above and beyond whith-holding).
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
No, it is not illegal.
Prevailing wage based on skill is the legal requirement. The study "studied" salaries regardless of skill grouping people with 1 year of experience together with people that have 12 years of experience just because their title had "computer programmer" in it.
I've seen the dept of labor salary charts that are used to satisfy the requirements for an H1B application. A software engineer has 4 or 5 categories in it based on experience. This "study" had only one.
In Soviet Russia, I ruled you
As for me, I make way the hell more than that, and I take a few months off every year. In fact, this year, I'm taking the rest of the year off because why the hell should I work November and December? I've only taken 6 weeks of vacation so far, so I think I've earned some time off. Yet I have "only" an undergraduate degree. From a state school. And not even a good one. My entire college education cost less than one year of law school. And I didn't have to kill myself studying for the bar.
By the way, I live in one of the most expensive cities in the US, and $70k is nothing. You can't rent a parking spot for $70k/yr, let alone an apartment. My points are:
Actually, I don't really see your point. If you want to work your ass off for $75k/yr, nobody's stopping you. But remember, at least in the states, you've got to go to three years of law school, which costs a ton of $US. And after you're done working your ass off in law school, you get to work your ass off for some partner in some law firm.
You know, I have to say it's kind of funny. You know when you're poor and you hear rich people say things like, "money isn't everything" and "money can't buy happiness," etc.? And you think to yourself, "That's something rich people say so poor people don't kill them." Well, I've been poor. And right now, I don't feel wealthy, but John Kerry says I'm wealthy and he really wanted to raise my taxes so I guess it must be true. Anyhow, I have to say, money isn't all it's cracked up to be. There are other infinitely more important things in life. My advice to you is to be happy with what you have. Spend time with your family. Go travel the world. That's what life's really about.
Anyhow, more money is useless if you have no time to spend it.
Good luck!
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
H1B visa holders are unfairly underpaid is another.
Salocin.com