Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Game Worlds and The Law Collide

Posted by Zonk on from the don't-sell-my-stuff dept.

jnguy writes "Forbes points out another business boom due to video games: lawsuits. With all of the crimes being committed both over and within video games, lawyers are finding a new customer. Incidents cited include a man in Shanghai who was sentenced to life after killing someone for selling his 'dragon sabre.'" Update: 11/07 22:42 GMT by Z : Fixed hilarious dress-up typo.

46 comments

  1. Uh, guys, hang on.. by matt+me · · Score: 2, Funny

    I know nethack can get competitive, but isn't this taking things too far?

    It's game! No-one ever got jailed for "tax evasion" in monopoly, the use of mortar in jenga or tights in truth or dare.

    These people need to "get real". Urgently.

    1. Re:Uh, guys, hang on.. by oliana · · Score: 1

      They forgot to mention in the header that the "killing someone" was RL, not in game.

      --
      In Soviet Russia, asses suck this joke.
    2. Re:Uh, guys, hang on.. by sweetspooky · · Score: 1

      So, if you break the law within the video game, do you go to real jail or or game jail? If I got sued, would I settle up with US currency or with gil?

    3. Re:Uh, guys, hang on.. by Dragoonmac · · Score: 2, Informative

      I like to think about it this way... In America's Army if you frag your CO during training you get thrown in jail, effectively losing your account. If WoW, for example, was to implement a policy like this it would fit with their goal to present a sense of realism and demographics. ( http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?story Id=4946772 for an example of this) Just think about how satisfying it would be if those stupid farmers got brought up on Digital Common Law charges for crimes against the game, their accounts get changed so they autospawn in an Ironforge Prison. And how interesting would the escape attempts be?

      --
      Shots: A Populist Parable
    4. Re:Uh, guys, hang on.. by Soybean47 · · Score: 1

      Um... people get jailed in Monopoly all the time. In fact, they go directly to jail, without even passing "Go".

      I don't really understand your other examples. But I'll take your word for it.

  2. Re:derp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    but rehashes of the same old thing... killing someone in real life for precieved missconduct is just wrong. I would love to go after a person or two, but I have morals and believe in laws that relate to respecting peoples right to exist.
    -rezzin

  3. "lawyers are finding a new costumer." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Brooks Brothers nor Hugo Boss aren't good enough anymore?

  4. costumer? by The+Other+White+Boy · · Score: 3, Funny

    so who's getting dressed up as what now?

  5. Lawyers aren't needed by matt+me · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Wouldn't the easiest, most suiting and certainly most interesting way to settle such mattles as these between players be in a duel?

    1. Re:Lawyers aren't needed by Detritus · · Score: 1
      In-game duels just favor the person with the best stats, who is often some jerk who spends 20 hours a day building a uber-character.

      In real life, if you piss off enough people, someone with nothing left to lose is going to show up on your doorstep with a shotgun.

      The best assassins are the ones who are willing to sacrifice their life if needed to get the job done. This could work inside a game. Buy the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, sneak up on your enemy, and pull the pin. The grenade would permanently kill any characters within its effective range.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    2. Re:Lawyers aren't needed by KDR_11k · · Score: 2, Funny

      Imagine the headline: "Terrorists pilot flying mount into Castle Stormwind, Alliance declares War on Terror"

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  6. Costumers? by oliana · · Score: 1, Redundant

    Is that because all the lawyers want to look like the on-line criminals (and need appropriate armor)? Or do they just like to dress up in general?

    --
    In Soviet Russia, asses suck this joke.
  7. M.M.O.R.P.G. = B.A.D.? by Kawahee · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I saw a rather interesting graph a few months back, which tracked number of violet crimes in the US since the release of DOOM, and it was steadily decreasing. What we've got here now, are games that are necessarily violent, but get players a little too passionate about the game, and are causing them to go out and do what they'd probably do in the real world if they're going to kill people for selling stuff in a virtual world - that is, kill them.

    I'll admit, I have no interest in MMORPGs, like World of Warcraft, or collectables like Warhammer 40 billion thousand, but I see why these people are doing it, and I think that if we're going to decrease MMORPG-related killings, we're going to have to get Blizzard and all them out there to put up a ToS where no real money is involved for the purpose of buying/purchasing, and they have an online police for sorting these things out.

    Depressing, isn't it? You could probably put something about how as children they spent all their time rolling 2d6's and that instead of adjusting to the outside world blah blah blah, but that's just more bullshit for Tack Jhompson.

    --
    I'll subscribe to Slashdot when I see a month without a dupe, a typo, or an article the "editors" didn't read.
    1. Re:M.M.O.R.P.G. = B.A.D.? by Namronorman · · Score: 1

      we're going to have to get Blizzard and all them out there to put up a ToS where no real money is involved for the purpose of buying/purchasing, and they have an online police for sorting these things out.

      Most major MMO's that I know of treat selling of in game currency and other items as a bannable offense. Stuff like that is already in the Terms of Service. The Online Police thing is usually done through GM's etc.

      The necessary rules are in place, the competent staff are not.

      --
      $fortune
      Tomorrow has been canceled due to lack of interest.
    2. Re:M.M.O.R.P.G. = B.A.D.? by Starsmore · · Score: 2, Interesting
      ...I think that if we're going to decrease MMORPG-related killings, we're going to have to get Blizzard and all them out there to put up a ToS where no real money is involved for the purpose of buying/purchasing, and they have an online police for sorting these things out.

      I don't have the exact legalese handy, but in the EULA/ToS of the major MMORPGs there is a blurb saying that using real life funds to purchase in-game items/gold/etc is illegal.

      That's a slippery slope, there, though. Blizzard more than likely has the means to ban every single gold farmer from connecting to the game, but then they lose ($15/mo x # of gold farmers) for doing it... something that the accounting department probably doesn't like. Or they could ban all the gold buyers, but the same thing, all those monthly fees go bye-bye.

      Or they can turn around and try and sue the people that are buying and selling the gold... but they aren't buying/selling the gold, they are simply exchanging funds for the work done, not the actual item. Or if they do sue a gold farming operation (IGE, for instance), and the judge rules in IGE's favor, that it is perfectly legal by the letter of US law to be making money by selling gold, then that'll be a dangerous legal precedent, which Blizzard's legal team probably does not want to be the one to set.

      But people (in the US, anyway) aren't going out and killing each other for being loot-stealing ninja's and such, so it's a moot point. Jack Thompson knows that the real killers are playing GTA & killing hookers!

      --
      "If Common Sense was so common, it wouldn't be such a valued trait."
    3. Re:M.M.O.R.P.G. = B.A.D.? by egburr · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Blizzard, and most of the others, do have a policy against using real money to buy virtual stuff from others in the game. They enforce what they can, which is probably only a small fraction of what's actually occurring.

      The problem with that is that Blizzard makes things artificially scarce, which drives up value. People will use whatever method is available to obtain something they want. Almost all will stay within the law, but most do not agree with the prohibition against using real money (and it's NOT illegal).

      Between artificial scarcity and extremely hard (impossibe for many people due to contigous time chunk requirements), a lot of people figure it is not possible for them to obtain certain items through the game and have no objection to purchasing it externally.

      After all, it's just another "pay to play" option. You're paying Blizzard to play the game. Blizzard intentionally reduces your ability to enjoy it. You're paying someone else for their efforts to get you an item that you think will help you enjoy the game more.

      I see nothing wrong with this, either morally or legally, except that it violates a ToS that you don't see until after you have already paid for and cannot return the game.

      Like many others, I have not purchased anything externally, primarily because I am not willing to dump even more real money into the game than I already have by the monthly subscription. (I finally woke up and cancelled that even, and went back to other games where I only have to pay once to play as often and long as I want.)

      Gold (resource) farmers are only viable because the resource is so ridiculously scarce. I never minded going out to mine resources. What I minded was never being able to find any because they were always cleared out by the farmers.

      The solution: reduce artificial scarcity of resources and make similar equivalent items available to people who are willing to put forth similar effort (but who cannot commit to a single large unbroken chunk of time).

      Yeah, the power gamers won't like it. Screw them; the rest of us paid the same money they did. Let them power play all they want; I don't care. But when two friends and I play for seven months, getting multiple characters up to high levels, and we only see one rare "purple" item drop in all that time (yes, we did some raids), it's a little ridiculous. Then we regularly see people who are completely equipped with purple items. We didn't want all that; we just wanted some ability to get a few items that had neat powers. Instead of going to spend real money on external purchases, I just lost interest in the game and eventually quit playing.

      It all just depends on the person. Prohibiting use of real money for virtual items is not the answer. Adjusting game economy/mechanics so more players are satisfied or even happy will drastically reduce real world value of those virtual items.

      --

      Edward Burr
      Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.
    4. Re:M.M.O.R.P.G. = B.A.D.? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      The Online Police thing is usually done through GM's etc.

      Which, at least in WoW, consists of forum-(not game-)banning users who talk about it, and not a fscklot else.

    5. Re:M.M.O.R.P.G. = B.A.D.? by brkello · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You have no idea what you are talking about. Even if the companies do not allow exchange of items for money (which most of them don't), there are companies out there that are willing to set up the exchange of real life money. Companies don't have police, but they do have people monitoring to try to prevent this activity. They certainly can't stop real life crime. Only someone who is messed up to begin with would kill somebody over a game. Blame the person, not the game. We have laws for murder. It's as simple as that.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    6. Re:M.M.O.R.P.G. = B.A.D.? by bynary · · Score: 1

      Yes, because we all know that correlation does prove causation. Although I do think it would be great if we, as a culture, were turning our aggressions towards imaginary targets. However, I don't necessarily think that's the case. Maybe it has to do with the increasing de-socialization of society. In other words, less and less people are getting out and interacting with each other. There might be fewer violent interactions if the overall number of social interactions were also declining.

      Just my two cents.

      --
      http://www.bynarystudio.com
    7. Re:M.M.O.R.P.G. = B.A.D.? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Imagine a professional football team bribed the opposing goalkeeper or perhaps the referee. While that may not be technically illegal it'll land all of you in trouble VERY quickly. That's because the rules say you must not use money to influence the game (if we ignore hiring for a moment). For MMOs the rules say "no trading items for real cash" so you can't do that within the rules of the game. Not obeying the rules will get you thrown out.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    8. Re:M.M.O.R.P.G. = B.A.D.? by Soybean47 · · Score: 1

      It's not even about the real life money. Even if they could somehow stop the exchanging of online goods for real life money... the gamers are still going to have insane amounts of real life time invested in their imaginary stuff. A lot of these people play these MMORPGs for hours every day, for months on end working towards various goals.

      So put yourself in their place. If you've put hundreds of real-life hours into obtaining an imaginary super-sword 10000 or something, and then somebody finds a way to steal it from you, it's not going to matter if it couldn't have been exchanged for real-life money. You're still going to be pissed. You hopefully won't kill the person... but it's as reasonable a motivation for murder as anything (that is to say, it's not very reasonable at all, but if you're the murdering sort, it seems like it'd do the trick).

    9. Re:M.M.O.R.P.G. = B.A.D.? by Shadowruni · · Score: 1

      Praise be to the poster! I think we have a winner. I think that the American society as a whole is one of the quick fix. Instant weight loss,instant food, and instant justice. If we look at it that way then the next thing they'll blame is TV... Er wait... Music.... Oh um... Movies.... Oh that's right blame everyone and thing except the person who did it! God bless America.

      --
      "Chinese Amazons, power armor, laser swords.... things just meant to be." - Shampoo, A Very Scary Bet
    10. Re:M.M.O.R.P.G. = B.A.D.? by egburr · · Score: 1
      That's way off. MMORG players are more like the football audience, they are paying to receive the entertainment, not getting paid to provide it. Your analogy is like a GM bribing a programmer to give his character special powers.

      If you want a football analogy, try this:
      The customers who purchased a ticket to watch the game often get upset at the rules against bringing in outside food/drink, and often bring in 50 cent bottles of water or soda to avoid paying five dollars for the same thing. There is nothing illegal about that, but it could get you escorted out of the arena. The only way they are going to stop it is by lowering the concession prices to something reasonable or by cracking down so hard they annoy even the people who don't try to sneak anything in.

      Furthermore, even though the outside food/drink prohibitions are very commonly known (and there are still some few places that allow it), nothing is said at time of purchase or on the ticket. The first official notice is the sign at the entrance gate.

      Restrictions like that should be visible at the time of purchase of the ticket (or game).

      WoW was my first (and only) MMORG (not counting MUDs a few years ago). Many of the restrictions that chafed me, I never head of until after I had paid for the game, opened it, installed it, and went to subscribe so I could play. By that time, I could not return the game. When I complained about some of them, other people laughed (some were just downright insulting) and said it's that way every where and couldn't believe I didn't know it. I thought many of those restrictions were stupid then, and still do now.

      --

      Edward Burr
      Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.
    11. Re:M.M.O.R.P.G. = B.A.D.? by vertinox · · Score: 1

      Depressing, isn't it? You could probably put something about how as children they spent all their time rolling 2d6's and that instead of adjusting to the outside world blah blah blah, but that's just more bullshit for Tack Jhompson.

      Well, if the Technological Singularity goes as planned in 2012 there won't be an "outside world". Wait... Did I just type that out loud.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    12. Re:M.M.O.R.P.G. = B.A.D.? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Which restrictions were those?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    13. Re:M.M.O.R.P.G. = B.A.D.? by egburr · · Score: 1
      Restrictions like these:

      Only the original purchaser of the game media is able to create an account using the included key (not documented in either EULA or ToS), and you are not allowed to transfer ownership of the account (documented) even if you subsequently transfer ownership of the media (completely obeying the EULA as documented) which invalidates your account (documented). In other words, you can give/sell your copy of the game to someone else, but then neither you nor they have any right to play it at all. After spending two weeks arguing EULA terms with Blizzard and eventually having a lawyer send them a letter, Blizzard sent me a new CD key so I could create my account. Stupid! Right off the bat, they alienate someone wanting to pay money to them (I should have taken the hint then). Many years ago, book publishers failed to create the right to prevent secondary sales. What makes game companies so special?

      You are not allowed to buy/sell any in-game virtual items for any out-of-game compensation, such as real money. Stupid! It's going to happen, and they are only going to catch a tiny fraction of those who are doing it. I never had much interest, because I'm not a power gamer and never had anything worth selling, and I wasn't willing to spend yet more money on playing the game. But, I see nothing wrong with doing it.

      Only one person (and one related young child) is allowed to use the account. Stupid! Nobody is going to pay for multiple accounts when the family has only one computer and only one person at a time can play anyway.

      I could go on, but that's enough for now. All these do is make people into virtual criminals (not real criminals, because no law is being broken) for doing things that most people would think is perfectly reasonable.

      I've quit playing, because I figured out that I have spent more money on this game than any other game I have ever played, and to keep playing it I would have to keep spending money. I've gone back to games where I only have to pay once to play as often and long as I like (until the next expansion pack, which I am not forced to buy to keep playing but usually will anyway).

      --

      Edward Burr
      Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.
  8. lawyers are finding a new costumer. by capoccia · · Score: 0, Redundant

    "... lawyers are finding a new costumer." ???!!!

    Halloween is over. Why do they want a costume for thanksgiving?

    1. Re:lawyers are finding a new costumer. by Surt · · Score: 3, Funny

      Have you seen how lawyers dress? If I were them I'd be looking for a new costumer too.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
  9. Oh, right by matt+me · · Score: 1

    >They forgot to mention in the header that the "killing someone" was RL, not in game.
    Oh, it was outside the game? Then it's not a major offence.

  10. Cosplay? by alan_dershowitz · · Score: 0, Redundant

    With all of the crimes being committed both over and within video games, lawyers are finding a new costumer.

    While the lawyers themselves may find this disconcerting, it will be only a minor transition for some of their clients to go from paying one "professional" to dress like Tifa Lockheart to another.

  11. Hmmm...I wonder by Puhase · · Score: 1

    I currently work for a law firm that partly specializes in real-estate law. Although EULA's currently discount any possibility for legal action based on in game activities, (killing someone outside the game with an "ingame" motive" doesn't count), can we possibly see a future where property laws come into play. If someone can find real and established value for their property, ie. Dragon Sabre=500Gold, 500 Gold=$200, then who says that you, by affecting my property or causing me a financial loss, cannot be liable for compensating me. Although not likely, this seems outwardly plausable and would lead to a rather grim future indeed. Especially if the government caps medical and other malpractice suits. That would leave alot of lawyers with alot of free time to look into shit like this. Personally, with all the Tack Jhompsons of the world out there, I think we have enough lawyers making a living off of video games.

    --
    I am and always will be a stereotype, because who in their right mind prefers mono?
    1. Re:Hmmm...I wonder by nine-times · · Score: 1

      This is one instance where I totally agree with the use of a EULA. When someone signs up for a MMORPG, there should be a little agreement that, among whatever else is appropriate, says, "I agree that I cannot hold anyone responsible for virtual damage to my virtual life". Something air-tight to keep the lawyers out.

    2. Re:Hmmm...I wonder by Pichu0102 · · Score: 1

      I agree.

    3. Re:Hmmm...I wonder by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      How does that work with boxing, for example? Do they sign a contract or is it just assumed that by putting on the gloves, entering the ring and fighting you participate in a game and agree to get injured within reasonable limits?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  12. Sentence by klack · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I would rather be sentenced to life than sentenced to death.

  13. Meh by voice_of_all_reason · · Score: 1

    A meatspace beating is only, but the embarassment of ingame pwnage lasts a lifetime...

  14. life? by ludomancer · · Score: 0

    "...a man in Shanghai who was sentenced to life..." Does that mean he was forced to return to real-life, forever leaving behind the realms of his fantasy worlds? For what I know of some MMO players... man, that's really harsh.

  15. Killing.... by GmAz · · Score: 0

    I don't think I would kill someone for selling my Glowing Brightwood Staff, but I might resort to old time punishment for theft. Off with his hand!!!

    --
    Click Click Bloody Click PANCAKES!
  16. Getting away from the real world by readin · · Score: 1

    I play the games to get away from the real world. When the lawyers start claiming the property is "real" (and legal enforcement starts), it is no longer a game. The bits, bytes, servers, etc. belong to the game company. You agree when you play the game to play by their rules. I like playing by the rules and keeping it "just a game". If you don't like it, go start your own game and make your own rules. The company running the game should have the right to take whatever in-game action it feels appropriate to deal with rule-breakers.

    --
    I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
  17. Castles in the air by trurl7 · · Score: 1

    The discussion about virtual castles recalled to me this quote:

    Neurotics build castles in the air. Psychotics live in them. But the Psychiatrist collects the rent.

  18. No different than a poker game gone sour by snuf23 · · Score: 1

    The tiny amount of real life violence resulting from people playing MMOs is just a fact of people playing competitive games. This can happen no matter what game is being played. Someone accuses another player of cheating in a high stakes game of poker, someone ends up dead.
    Any type of "oh no we must stop this" reaction neglects the fact that it's human nature at work and you can't change that with a law. Just as some states ban gambling to curb violence associated with it, the gambling still goes on.
    If there is value and risk in a game at some point someone is going to get hurt.

    --
    Sometimes my arms bend back.
  19. Sad isn't it? by FreakUnique · · Score: 1

    I've played several MUDS, MMORPGs and other online games. I've never taken anything said online personally. The person needs to be able to detach the online world from the real world.

    Not sure if bad parenting is playing a hand in this violence. But highly likely since I play/watch some violent things and don't go around killing people. I'm frickin autistic and if I can make the detachment then no other person has a decent excuse.

    --
    There have been many times when dealing with people that I wished I could kiss my own butt goodbye
  20. Shanghai by slushbat · · Score: 1

    We often see that incident in Shanghai cited as being to do with video game violence. As I recall what actually happened was that his mate sold the item for real money and did not share it. That is why the murder happened. Rest assured if you sell anything of mine and refuse to hand over the money, I would kill you too, and I have never played an MMORPG.

    --

    Don't put off until tomorrow what you can leave until the day after.

    1. Re:Shanghai by Sagewolf · · Score: 1

      Also, as a side note. The guy who killed his friend had quit his job so that he could play the game more and was living in an internet cafe. I would say that qualifies as not "normal" behavior and more as obsessive behavior.

      I play WoW and yes I have had my share of late nights when I have to be up for work the next morning. I've been in a raid and had someone "ninja" the best drop then log out. Was I pissed off..sure I was. I saw it as a waste of my time, but I got XP from the run and was able to do it again later on with my guildmates.