Continued Look at Global Open Source

sebFlyte writes "In the second part of its look at open source in governments around the world, ZDNet takes an interesting look at open source in the developing world. Pricing obviously is an important factor (if you look at GDP, MS prices in Vietnam are the equivalent, for local people, of charging just shy of $50,000 for a Windows XP license in the US), but other issues arise, such as Brazil's 'sense of community', a certain amount of security-related worries from the Chinese, and language issues in India. A good analysis of the advantages of open source generally, the huge benefits it can have in developing markets, and the fact that open source is on the up despite massive amounts of lobbying and pressure from some proprietary vendors."

Comments

A bargain!

[Black Parrot]

> (if you look at GDP, MS prices in Vietnam are the equivalent, for local people, of charging just shy of $50,000 for a Windows XP license in the US)

And worth every penny of it, just like when you buy it in the USA.

Re:A bargain!

[70Bang]

I cannot provide a citing OTTOMH, but IIRC, Microsoft has said they believe 1/3 of all Windows running today [worldwide] are pirated.

Some where, some how, they've gone to the same school as the oil executives sitting before Congress last week, attempting to justify their record quarterly profits, but claiming to have done so without gouging their customers: "We had to do it. Otherwise, there'd be a run on gas and it would have create shortages." Imagine them saying under their breath: "the fact we made a lot of money protecting people from themselves was just gravy" and their other friends saying, "smoking is not dangerous". Oil executives, tobacco executives, baseball players: is there anyone who doesn't lie before Congress?)

How many threads|entries [below] will it be before we see:

"Our software would be cheaper[1] if we didn't have to compensate for pirated copies." "We wouldn't pirate copies if they weren't so expensive." and "How can you say 100% of the people pirating would purchase a legitimate copy if they weren't so expensive?"

[1] Not "less expensive", "cheaper".
___________________________________
A new punchline for an old joke:

So the priest walks up to a nun and asks, "What's Windows?" She looks at him and says, "$10, just like everywhere else."

MIT $100 laptop.

[_eb0la_reston_]

That's why the $100 MIT Laptop makes sense: It's "cheap" for developing countries. Any *serious* developer should have one on hist desk just to see how his applications perform on the next half-of-the-world-hardware-standard.

Re:MIT $100 laptop.

[johansalk]

Speaking of the MIT laptop - the next half-of-the-world-hardware-standard should be the next how-things-should-be-standard.
I have gone open source lately and by that I don't mean openoffice.org instead of MS-Office or gnome/kde instead of windows explorer, but I mean real gnu just how the unix culture intended it to be. I think it's ludicrous that people switch to a *nix and try to run it like a windows, that'd be too dumb and missing the point on unix. Windows may be good for dummies but people shouldn't be encouraged to remain dummies for decades, and open source shouldn't try to imitate that encouragement.
For example, any computer user worth his salt and intending to use a computer for longer than a couple of months should pretty soon be starting to learn how to use LaTeX, and use that instead of MSWord and Powerpoint especially that it's simpler and far better. Same can be said for project R and sqlite instead of Excel and Access - both are once known simpler and far better. Add Perl to that, and with CTAN, CRAN and CPAN, and within a few months I'd kick any MS user's ass with my $100 laptop. Those are simple things, teach them to high school kids, just the basics of them, no need for abstract deep stuff for large scale programming at this point, and I'm sure they'd pick them up more easily than I did.
My favourite stuff right now are stuff that I know for sure would run on the simplest hardware out there, be stable, fast and secure (no data loss or erros), and I don't need to worry about upgrading to what nonsense Mircosoft is trying to sell me next nor the hardware I need to run it.

Re:MIT $100 laptop.

[trollable]

Has it ever occured to you or anyone else that these people you are going to try to sell $100 laptops to have no use for a laptop, for MS Windows, or for open sourced?

Do you really think students there don't need a computer? There is a lot of IT students in these countries that would be happy to have a personnal computer. And there is already numberous contributions to FOSS coming from them already. Sometimes just localization, sometimes more. The point is not to give computers but to make them affordable.

Re:MIT $100 laptop.

[Cheapy]

So...You go from 50,000$USD to 26315.79$USD?

Assuming my math is correct, (and the price for Windows XP is the same in Vietnam as it is in the US) the $100 MIT laptop would cost that price above: $26315.79.

Sure, it's a nice saving. But it isn't realistic.

Re:MIT $100 laptop.

[Morrolan]

Who the hell is going to buy a $100 laptop when they don't have enough to eat.

What does "developing countries" mean anyway...

Does anyone really think that a $100 laptop is going to improve the quality of life
for the vast majority in a "developing country"?

Re:MIT $100 laptop.

[delire]

I took his point to be that Computing, through mass-market rationalism, has become a highly modalised activity targeted at the lowest-common-denominator - one whose graphical interfaces (eg OSX, WinXP, KDE/GNOME) are strategically engineered to encourage certain use patterns and types based on theories of predictable action.

There is loss here for the curious user with no prior technical knowledge; s/he is discouraged from learning about, and then engaging with the actual computational processes offered by the powerful machines at their fingertips. OSX and Win32 are examples of these; highly generalised, tactically stupified, rental operating-systems whose product target is that of 'appliance', not 'computer'.

Comitting to a GNU toolchain and free-software operating-system can only encourage learning in directions not ordained within the rationalism of product driven capitalism. Many 30-somethings here grew up with comparitively 'unfriendly' computing machines (ZX84, Amstrad, C64, AppleIIE). We studied them inside and out. Let's not forget what contact with these machines gave us.. and be wary of this so called 'user friendliness'.

Re:MIT $100 laptop.

[oldCoder]

...and within a few months I'd kick any MS user's ass with my $100 laptop

MS Windows and GUI's in general have allowed people who are experts in fields other than computer software to use computers and gain productivity.

While you are kicking the other guys butt he is making money by serving his customers or employers.

A lot of techies have worked very hard for very long to enable non-techies to benefit from computer automation and communications. Just as auto mechanics, designers, geologists and chemical engineers have worked long and hard to enable us to drive around in cars without knowing how to fix cars, refine oil, negotiate with Arabs or engineer mass production lines.

A good auto mechanic and expert driver may be able to drive around better, cheaper and faster than you can but you don't really care, you've got other things to do. That's how most of the world feels about us and they're right.

Re:MIT $100 laptop.

[grcumb]

"Has it ever occured to you or anyone else that these people you are going to try to sell $100 laptops to have no use for a laptop, for MS Windows, or for open sourced?"

Yes, it has occurred to me. So I went and checked. I didn't just ask people 'Do you want a cheap computer?', I spent a year travelling through a developing country assessing their priority needs. I spent another year setting up community-owned computer centres where people can use computers for about a dollar an hour. There are full every minute of the day. One computer centre has 4 computers and over 250 students signed up for this term alone. The service is expensive for them, but they love it. I'm currently working on another project to replicate this effort throughout the South Pacific.

Unfortunately, a lot of people fall victim to the same kind of binary logic that you use above. Since when does buying farm implements or providing food aid preclude spending a few dollars on education and employment opportunities? Is it absolutely unimaginable that we could do both?

"If you GAVE it to them, they would sell it for $60 to buy some better farming equipment or some shoes for their kids."

Bull. Selling a computer is like selling the milk cow. You're sacrificing your (and your children's) future for quick profit today. Although every society the world over has its own quota of short-sighted people, I can tell you from personal experience that inexpensive computers have value, and they improve living conditions where they are available. I can also tell you from direct experience that most people recognise this and are committed to their children's future.

Do you know what the number one spending priority is in the developing country where I live? It's school fees. Every single parent I've spoken with cares about nothing more than ensuring a better future for their children. Many parents hold public fund-raisers on behalf of their children in order to keep them in school. Living a life of abject poverty does not mean that people aren't capable of forgoing immediate gratification in favour of a better long-term solution.

I won't deny for a second that every society has its share of short-sighted people who want flashy new toys without really considering their worth or the cost of owning and using something as sophisticated as a computer. But that's where volunteers like me and the dozens of other working here come in. I've been training unemployed youth in computer repair, maintenance and configuration. They're now earning a modest but viable living providing support services to others. One of them is training the next group of apprentices, too.

There is nothing more important to learning than access to information and the time to study it. Having a computer in the home makes both of those available. I can say from experience that this laptop initiative is enlightened and will almost certainly have a direct and positive effect on the lives of the recipients.

In a phrase

[johansalk]

or a sentence; open Source is the future, it's inevitable.

Re:Awesome

[captain igor]

Mostly US? Last I checked a LARGE portion of OSS developers were from Europe.

One added benefit for emerging markets

[RandoX]

Since many users in poorer countries don't have existing systems there is no "switch" from one system to another. The users can start out using open source without having the baggage of expectations of how things SHOULD work. They have to start out by learning how to use an OS. Why not the free one?

Re:One added benefit for emerging markets

[jkrise]

Since many users in poorer countries don't have existing systems there is no "switch" from one system to another.

This does not apply in the corporate segment, even in poorer countries, like India - computers have been there for decades. And in the home segment, hardware integration and drivers is a big issue even now, with vendors like HPaq not supporting Linux. They give FreeDOS and don't seem to mind the piracy...

The users can start out using open source without having the baggage of expectations of how things SHOULD work. They have to start out by learning how to use an OS.

As above, this is only in the corporate segment - and the OS is a bad example, there. The OS comes bundled with branded h/w, so the real drive for Open Source is the servers. Exchange Server for a mid-sized firm could cost a few hundred thousand rupees - Open Source alternatives built around Sendmail look attractive. Same for groupware, webservers etc.

NOT the desktop OS - atleast not YET...

Indian price equivalents...

[jkrise]

Windows XP - Indian Rupees ~8,000 (average pay for an IT worker per month). Equivalent US$ 5,000. Office XP - Indian Rupees ~15,000 Eq US$ 9,000.

One problem in some less developed countires...

[sznupi]

Corruption.

The decision makers too often aren't concerned about real financial benefits of others in long term (Linux isn't that usefull for populism)

Re:One problem in some less developed countires...

[dswan69]

Yes, it would be nice if they wouldn't take on this particular US export.

Just like the pharma industry

[surfdaddy]

In the pharma industry, prices in the US are much higher than overseas. In other countries governments regulate prices to some degree to keep them low. Socialized medicine won't tolerate the US prices. In the US we basically subsidise the large costs of Research and Development, clinical trials, etc. I wonder if the software market could handle this - pricing variation by country for the same items? The problem for MS and others is that unless they do this, they're driving other countries to either steal or to open-source software. Of course, that may not be a bad thing!

Re:Just like the pharma industry

[dswan69]

No, you subsidise the huge marketing costs.

Re:Awesome

[johansalk]

That's nonsense. Open source is world-based, *not* US-based. And if you're worried about the trade deficit perhaps it's time you do something about your Microsoft-lenient corporate-whore "patriotic" president; Clinton left you in a much better situation.

So I can move to Etheopia,

[farker haiku]

and sell my 3 legit copies of windows and have the rough equivalent of half a million dollars? That's it, I'm moving!

Re:So I can move to Etheopia,

[FidelCatsro]

You might have a problem if there is a revolution .. I am sure some nice people on the internet will help you get your money out of the country if you write to them.

Dragged from behind...

[D-Cypell]

Uptake of open source is likely to be much higher in the developing world. The crazy license fees when compared to GDP as stated in the summary is one reason but the lack of an 'existing standard' is another. It is difficult for software like OpenOffice to make headway in the developed world as MS office is fairly ubiquitous.

Microsoft believe that the developing world will have to pay the fees because they will have to maintain compatibility with those of us in the west. However, it is a subtle balance. If Microsoft price themselves out of the market and the developing world look into alternative, open source solutions the it is likely that the legitimacy of tools such as open office will increase in the west too. Globalization will require internationally compatible software, and when the choice is between a western world that prefers proprietry software and a developing world which cannot afford the same software then it is a case of Microsoft dropping its prices dramatically, or the western world adopting open solutions.

Interesting times...

Re:Dragged from behind...

[f0dder]

And you know this to be true because????? ... people in developing countries don't care about licensing cost because there are minimal infrastructures to enforce them.

Pricing is not really a factor

[lightweave]

I doubt that pricing is a factor in third world countries. Since they can't afford the prices anyway, but have to communicate with the rest of the world, the majority will using pirated copies of Windows. MS is probably well aware of this, and that is the reason why the local versions for these countries are also localized in the pricing. What these countries value though, is also the independence, which is the really galling thing for the US. Linux doesn't have a stron relation to a particular country, and if it ever will get one, then there is no big problem. You got the source, you can change it and develop it however you wish. When you start out with a mostly new infrostructure you don't need to think about existing ties, because there are none. So it's cheaper and more reliable to code the appropriate converters for like Word dcouments, then taking the whole OS just to get this stuff, and have the extra advatnages for free.

Re:Awesome

[Kjella]

Awesome news. I look forward to the increasing trade deficit resulating as a direct consequence of largely U.S.-based programmers giving away their efforts for free.

And whose fault is that? If you're in a market where people will do it for free, you've picked the wrong market. Demand and supply. The free market. The american way. The anti-OSS movement are preaching protectionism and trade barriers, everything the US of A supposedly don't stand for.

Re:Except that Vietnam prices are MUCH smaller

[smallpaul]

But of course, MS is not charging US prices in Vietnam...

Furthermore, the relevant question is whether Windows XP is out of range for people who have computers. Vietnamese rice farmers are not going to run Windows XP.

Here in mexico

[Spy der Mann]

we went thru a HORRIBLE crisis on 94, the dollar was valued 3 pesos per dollar. Now it's near 11, meaning software costs about 3 times more.

Would you be paying 600 dollars for a legitimate copy of Windows XP? And here a very good pay is $1000 dollars a month. It's no mystery then that most software in Mexico is pirated.

Still it's an awful dependance on foreign products (businesses MUST use legitimate software), which is another reason why i support the OpenDocument initiative.

Re:Here in mexico

[chochos]

I think it depends on WHERE you live in Mexico. 1000 dollars a month is a good salary on certain small cities, but certainly not in Mexico City, where the cost of living is much higher, but so are the salaries (usually). A single guy needs to earn about 2000 dollars a month if he wants to rent an apartment for himself (say 500 dollars a month in a so-so area).

Huge price tags

[Xtravar]

The huge price tags in those countries are probably to combat piracy losses, or force them to piracy. If developing nations just pirate Windows, then when they're developed they're going to pay for Windows.

Re:Let me tell you about "sense of community"

[nonlnear]

The problem isn't socialism. It's corruption.

Corrupt capitalism is just as oppressive as corrupt socialism. To modify your "oh so poignant" point slightly:

Armchair capitalism is very nice until it is YOU who finds himself working 3 hours to earn enough to buy a loaf of bread.

It's not capitalism that makes the USA a good place to work. It's the fact that there are effective, independent courts that do a fairly good job of maintaining the rule of law. In more socialist countries where there is a similarly effective judiciary, you will find that the three hour lines you refer to don't exist. In fact, you'll find that society does a pretty decent job of allocating goods. Note, I'm talking about socialism here - not central planning. There is a BIG difference. Distinctions like that tend to be glossed over or completely lied about in the brainwashing that a some (a lot of?) American schoolchildren get.

Comparison to GDP ... pretty strange

[courtarro]

I was planning to write a long comment concerning how retarded it is to compare prices on the basis of GDP [1], which makes about as much sense as comparing price ratios to the ratio of the number of sheep in a country. It's misleading at best, considering the large difference in the populations of the two countries. It's probably more accurate to compare the per-capita GDP [2], which yields the result that Windows (which costs $200 in the US according to the summary writer's numbers) would cost about $15,000 in Vietnam. However, this too is somewhat inaccurate because a) no one pays full price for Win XP Pro non-upgrade, b) You don't have to have XP Pro to get most of the benefits of Windows, and c) MS offers XP Starter Edition in Vietnam, which is supposedly offered for as low as US$15 [3]. Then again, when you figure that price based on per-capita GDP, it still comes to the equivalent of $1120, which isn't small change. So yes, the price is still pretty terrible, but when it comes to the intricacies of currency exchanges, is it fair to pound Microsoft on the basis of price comparisons when they're already discounting a product roughly 75% ?

Oh wait, free products aren't affected by currency exchanges. Oh well ...

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ GDP_(nominal)
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
[3] http://news.com.com/Windows+for+India,+others+wont +run+on+faster+chips/2100-1016_3-5704942.html
[4] 1 - (Price of XP SE) / ((Price of XP Home non-upgrade) * 0.60), assuming SE has roughly 60% of Home's features ... wildly estimative!

Methods

[headkase]

All of human progress including technology is characterized by a repeating cycle of exploration and simplification. I do think that Open Source software is a better way to make software but does not always result in better software.
What I think is far more important than Open Source methodology is the setting of standards in the first place. Consider all of networking, it was formalized as a framework called OSI (Open Systems Interconnect) and was structured in such a way that it could be modularily extended with minimal disruption to other areas. Imagine what the Internet would be today without the OSI model. I think we would instead of a world wide system would be stuck for quite a few years with a mish-mash of protocols that wouldn't communicate well with each other. What I mean by that is there would be AOL networks, Microsoft networks, Sun networks, and so on and they would only communicate with each other through kludges at best. I don't see that situation as a healthy one at all. Now, given enough time everything clears up so eventually one(ish) networking standard would come to prevail but there would have been a lot more resources wasted to arrive at the equivalent point of a designed from the outset standard.
I don't think that very many people would disagree if I said that the Internet is an essential service and in many different ways that alone implies a need for regulation. Internet service is run as a free market right now and market forces are great at optimization of variables but are not intelligent and do not always do smart things (beta vs. vhs anyone?). What I'm trying to say is that governments should introduce new standards into the Internet, things that try to make it the most efficient and flexible Information conduit it can be. It's all about where you start and where you end, and with standards as a better starting point than random less effort is expended traveling to where we should be.
So where I'm going with all this is that the conflict between proprietary and open software vendors could be easier to resolve if regulations were established that in effect stated that all the pipes were going to be the same size so they would fit together. This is where the commons doesn't have to be a tragety, the removal of scarcity from the system does allow for "The Magic Cauldron" effect and that is where Open Source should be. Now, if all the basic information infrastucture is regulated, what does that leave for private enterprise? Content, baby, content. That's where all the real money is ;).

Re:FREE isn't "Trade"...

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

It's not TRADE if it's free. It's also not commerce. And that's what the US of A is built upon.

I assume you are arguing it is not trade if the item costs no money, not if the source is available as no one in their right mind would argue freedom is opposed to the U.S. founding principals. In which case, you're dead wrong anyway. Barter is a concept that predates money. People who use open source software, especially GNU software must agree to the license and abide by it's terms in exchange for the right to copy and redistribute it. In the case of the BSD license, all the user is asking for is credit, which is a form of advertising. In the case of GNU licensed materials the copyright holder(s) are demanding access to free labor from people who want to use it in particular ways. This is called trade.

Microsoft is Free in Third World

[bayers]

Microsoft Windows XP doesn't cost anything in the third world. They will give you a free copy at any internet cafe. Perhaps they will charge you a minimal charge for the CD and their time.

Same goes for linux or Adobe photoshop.

All software is practically free in the third world. Access to a computer is another thing.

This is the part I was talking about

[Hosiah]

To get straight to the point: everybody who sits there with a wet-diaper attitude complaining that Linux is too hard, learning any one single thing is too much to ask, I'll pay someone else to do it for me, etc: Well, say howdy-do to your new slave-master! He comes from a village of mud huts, is skinny from eating on 50 cents a day, wears a loincloth and a castaway bandana, and has three teeth left. But he can program cirles around you. He's taking technology into his own hands, the way all the lazy slobs with nothing but fat between the ears won't. And he will control your life with a few keys.

It's been one of my favorite sayings for going on ten years, now: The technology that you do not master, will master you. What a shame that America won the space race, pioneered the computer race, and then lapsed into barbarism. Quite a shame; what a lead we lost. How glorious we could have been! Check the distros at DistroWatch.com sometime - a growing percentage of them are *NOT* in English! Many are tailer-made for a specific country or language other than the US.

Well, I'm glad I kept *my* hand in, instead of vegging on the couch watching football. As a second-generation immigrant myself, who taught himself eight programming languages and landed a string of tech jobs with nothing but a little vocational training paid for by his own job, don't expect me to be all sympathetic when the rest of the world leaves America behind. No one can bail you out of this mess, if you won't lift a finger to help yourself.

A mind is, indeed, a terrible thing to waste, and a person throwing away their mind on purpose wastes their life as well; an even greater tragedy. So I'll sign my rant off with deepest regrets...

This article sets up a straw man.

[massysett]

From the article:

Even if software is discounted to account for local pricing, it is usually still extremely expensive and there is no guarantee that this discount will be sustained in the long term, says Ghosh.

It also discusses the price of MS Windows on Amazon.com. This is a straw man. MS Windows is expensive, no doubt about it. But MS is not selling Windows in Vietnam for the same price that they are selling it for in the US. For that matter, few people in the US are paying the Amazon price!! Most folks get Windows preinstalled, and corporate volume licenses and the licenses that HP, Dell, etc. buy are certainly not the $99 or more that Windows costs on the Amazon website!

Windows is expensive, but this article is a total joke. How about giving us some real price data that those in other countries pay. Hell, how about giving us some real US price data!!!

EXACTLY!

[brunes69]

As a Canadian, I can never help but laugh myself silly at all the US drug ads I am subjected to on a daily basis.

What is the point of these ads? Do Americans actually see an ad for some weird drug for low cholesterol, and for some reason believe they are more qualified than their doctor to decide if they need it? Who would do this?

I can't even fathom this amount of commercialism in medicine - it is wrong on so many levels I cannot even begin to explain. "Ask your Doctor about <insert drug here>. I have a better idea - why dont I assume that my doctor, who has trained for nearly a decade (and more), and who would probably have multiple orders of magnitude more information on me on my condition, would know best, and let them tell me if I need you drug., instead of listening to drug company propeganda?

Re:EXACTLY!

[microwave_EE]

Don't forget that here in the states, the drug companies also market directly to the doctors. I know several medical assistants, and the drug reps regularly would come in and leave "samples" for the docs to give out, and they'd buy everybody lunch. All of this is done in hopes that the doctors would prescribe their company's meds...and once a few folks get hooked on claritin (sp??), or Zoloft, or whatever, then the drug company will more than have recouped their investment.

Re:EXACTLY!

[cecom]

Ha ha ha. Don't make me laugh! (Through tears, that is). Healthcare in US is atrocious. I am not saying that the doctors are incompetent (I am not qualified to judge that), but they sure don't try very hard. You have to really insist for tests or real treatment - if you just leave it to the doctor the usual prescription for anything is Tylenol.

That is, only if you are lucky enough to have health insurance. The problem is not only being able to pay for it (most smaller businesses don't pay for their employees health insurance, or cover only up to 20-50%), but even being elligible. Forget about getting personal health insurance if you've been sick before - it is insurance after all - they have to make money, so you'd better not use it! ;-)

As a Brazillian citzen...

[vhogemann]

... and a government employee, I have one or two things to say:

First, actualy there is no coerent effort to push OpenSource solutions in the Federal Government. There are isolated efforts, and little coordination between them.

I work at the Rio de Janeiro Municipal Dept. of Health Care (Secretaria Municipal de Saude), we has been working on a really open framework for the past 3 years, based on Java + Tomcat + Hibernate + Firebird runnig on Debian. It's already used on a social program called Medicine at Home (Remedio em Casa), that delivers medicine by mail for people with diabetes and high blood pressure.

We had plans to extend this, and use the same framework to devellop a full hospitalar management solution, based on opensource sollutions, and enterprise ready. But it has been put aside, in favor of a project develloped by the Federal Ministery, called SNIS.

SNIS (National System for Health Information), is a nightmare of ill concepted technologies. Everything is based on proprietary solutions, such as Oracle Forms, Windows and even WindowsCE.

But the worst part are the special build PCs running WindowsCE, made of an ITX motherboard, 320x240 LCD touchscreen, termal printer, and SmartCard reader. They are meant to be used for data input, such as schedule consults on a ambulatory. The idea is that those custom "thinclients" would be cheaper to mantain than regular PCs... This could be true, if they didnt cost U$900,00 each! And, to make things even worse... the only firm that makes those babies is Procomp, a firm that is owned by DIEBOLD!!!

So, belive me when I say that OpenSource is a priority for the Brazilian government only when there are political interests behind it.

Open source in the developing world

[c0d3h4x0r]

ZDNet takes an interesting look at open source in the developing world

"Food wants to be free!"

"The Gruel Public License has been accused of being communist."

"My neighbor is illegally selling the food that I grew and shared with my other starving neighbors!"

"Users just want a life that works, without hunger getting in the way of their primary task."

"Don't hit on uknown people, even if they look safe, or you might get infected!"

"Don't complain about how horrible your country is -- jump in and fix it yourself!"

Re:Missing the point?

[ttfkam]

A couple of fundamental flaws in your argument:

1. Not everyone is an expert.

2. Not everyone wants to be an expert in computers. (More important)

3. You cannot drag and drop a spreadsheet table into a LaTeX document.

4. You assume that those who are not interested in the same things that you are should be considered dumb because they favor a GUI.

5. OS X is an example of a GUI done better. GUI != Windows GUI. For reference, check out Quicksilver for OS X.

6. \documentstyle{letter} \begin{document} is not as easy as using a WYSIWYG word processor. Stop deluding yourself.

7. Do you make sure to wash only whites with whites, light colors with light colors, and darks with darks? Do you fold them neatly and ordered from dark to light? Do you put striped shirts in a different section from solids? Some would argue that just a little time spent up front can save you more time later when selecting an outfit for the day. Others will be impressed by your organization.

OR

Do you just not care enough to obsess about your clean laundry. Maybe you're like me and just fold it and throw it in a dresser. Maybe like me you wash white with "fairly light" on warm most of the time. ...because it's just not that important to me.

Different people care about different things. Perhaps LaTeX would be marginally more efficient than Word (after the initial training and cursing is over). But more likely, just like organizing your sock drawer; most people figure that they have better things to do.

------------

That said, you are unfortunately comparing apples to oranges. LaTeX is a replacement to the Word doc format, not Word.

I also don't find anything friggin impossible or even difficult about "\documentstyle{letter} \begin{document} ... letters ... \end{document}"

*ring* *ring*

"Hello? Okay hold on, I'll get him. It's for you. It's the 1980's calling. They want their text processor back."

Now calm down. Do I think LaTeX (and its non-obvious pronounciation) should go away? No. Do I think many people use it through a GUI and not by typing in format/structure codes? Absolutely! I also hope you grasp the irony of someone advocating for better word processing methodology (text with formatting) in a Slashdot post with absolutely no formatting whatsoever. My god man! They're called "paragraph breaks."

What the hell is the point of a 3GHz processor if you're just going to use a text editor that only loads and saves? Then of course you have to pass it through a formatter/compiler so that you can have your nice PDF or graphic or what-have-you. But wait! You need to make a template too so that it looks presentable.

Forget that! I remember the days of writing ".pp" at the beginning of WordStar documents so that numbered page footers would appear from the dot matrix printer. I remember arcane commands like "^KD" for save and close. I occasionally type ":wq" in a console when I have to. I remember typing "CLOAD BJACK" on my father's Z80-processor Exidy Sorceror and pressing play on the tape deck so that I could get a couple hands of Blackjack in before bed. They were all things that I could learn, and they weren't all that complex.

I never want anything to do with them ever again. Why? Because I have better things to worry about than obscure technical arcana that has no relevance to the world at large or the task at hand. The only point in bringing it up and proclaiming that others do the same is to assert how clever you think you are and how you think every else will be made so much more clever if they do as you do.

If you really want people to use LaTeX, bundle it up in such a way that anyone -- not just those who have used computers for ten years or longer -- can use it out of the box with only a ten-minute tutorial. Go ahead. I dare you. A word of advice: don't start the tutorial with "all you have to do is format it like '

Interesting

[cerebrum_interfectum]

I am from a south-eastern European country, where an average salary is cca 200 euros, nevertheless Windows XP Pro is priced at 150 euros (90 e for Home edition), Office 500 e - so much for making things 'affordable' in developing countries... The 'reformist' government even made a deal with Microsoft, making it a sole software supplier for governmental agencies and even educational institutions. So, I'm paying MS through taxes even, and waiting for a day when my kids (which I plan to have ;) ) will be taught something their parents do not approve of. Unless, of course, Microsoft has disappeared from the software market untill those day came :)

Re:Missing the point?

[johansalk]

Well it's obvious you're not a "Word prolific". Use Word for a long enough period of time as I had done, save a document a few times and load it, let it have any significant outline-like bulleted list with some indentation, and see how often it screws up the thing. I don't need to convince *any* friggin' one what's easier or harder, I have used Word for long enough and I have, not long ago, started using LaTeX. I don't need to convince *any* friggin' one, all I need is to know which is simpler and wiser *for me* to use over a long period of time and the answer is there's no contest, LaTeX wins, it's far more portable, cross-platform, secure, stable, simple, *automatic* (yes, I don't need to worry about formatting or such nonsense, it's done by LaTeX to a professional quality, and this is an opinion that *not* only I hold, by far).
As for my children, I sure hope they won't expect to know how to drive a car after a "ten-minute tutorial", or expect that any other thing that they'd use for life is worth *no* more than ten minutes of learning time - if they do, then I'll consider myself a failure of a parent for having raised such instant gratification junkies who think that life is akin to a TV remote.