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Sun Opens Up Enterprise Software

abscondment writes "Stating that "open source is the future" of the software industry, Sun's President and COO Jonathan Schwartz announced that Sun will be opening its enterprise software in a manner similar to Solaris 10. Sun is opening up the Java Enterprise System, Sun N1 Management software, and Sun developer tools, etc. - practically everything except Java - hoping to lure more developers and chief executive officers worldwide to use and deploy its enterprise software."

210 comments

  1. so.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    Does that mean I can finally type "emerge sun-jdk" on my Gentoo box and have it download and install in one easy step, without having to go to their stupid site and click on some stupid EULA??

    Free as in beer, or free as in "not being a goddamn pain in the ass"?

    (didn't I just post this a couple days ago??)

    1. Re:so.... by lemsip · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yes, having to go and click on the EULA really makes Gentoo emerges feel like they take ages!

    2. Re:so.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Read the fucking blurb.

      practically everything except Java

  2. Kudos by garrett714 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Kudos to Sun I say!

    1. Re:Kudos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't blame me, I voted for Kang!

  3. Everything except Java? by Glomek · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What is going on with Sun? Why do they keep opening up things all over the board but ignoring the one thing that they have received the most demand to open up?

    1. Re:Everything except Java? by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      Right on. As they shrivel into nonrelevence bet they control even of java.

    2. Re:Everything except Java? by ozric99 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Wow, kind sir, you've given me this nice house, your car, use of your lovely wife on a regular basis and your daughter's hand in marriage - all without strings attached! Why oh why won't you also give me your country estate?

    3. Re:Everything except Java? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's commonly called failure, something Sun management excel at!

    4. Re:Everything except Java? by twiddlingbits · · Score: 1

      Because If they did M$ would take it and screw Sun. They would try the same tactics they did the first time around, except sneakier. Look what they have done with XML adding the proprietary extensions (like encyprted sections where only M$ software can read it) and then trying to get those included as part of the base specification. Java is very extensible, what's NOT there you can certainly add. The BNF for Java is published I think, and IIRC Java is built on C++ so you COULD write your own. Maybe if there were to become ANSI/ISO Java (such as was done with C) then opening it up would not hurt and the "core" language would be strictly specified.

    5. Re:Everything except Java? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Note that one of the packages is Sun Directory Server, which is very, very similar to Fedora Directory Server (http://directory.fedora.redhat.com/), which has been open source for several months now (and as of today, the admin server and management console). Perhaps they want to open the source code under that project? We're ready to talk - rmeggins@redhat.com

    6. Re:Everything except Java? by patcito · · Score: 3, Funny
      Wow, kind sir, you've given me this nice house, your car, use of your lovely wife on a regular basis and your daughter's hand in marriage - all without strings attached! Why oh why won't you also give me your country estate?


      I'd rather put it the gangsta way: I mean, your car is broke, your wife is ugly and your daughter's fat. What should should I care? Now gimme that country estate or move along, I don't care about your old garbage that ain't ebay or shit!
    7. Re:Everything except Java? by Glomek · · Score: 3, Funny
      Wow, kind sir, you've given me this nice house, your car, use of your lovely wife on a regular basis and your daughter's hand in marriage - all without strings attached! Why oh why won't you also give me your country estate?

      Not exactly. It's more like:

      Wow, kind sir, you've told me how this nice house, your car, your lovely wife and daughter work - all without strings attached! Why oh why won't you answer the ONE QUESTION I KEEP ASKING ABOUT HOW YOUR LAWNMOWER WORKS?!?

    8. Re:Everything except Java? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Java can be protected adequately through the trademark. Unless it is 100% compatible, you can't call it Java (and jusging by the crippled VMs you get on most 'phones these days, they don't even seem to be enforcing that...). Relaxing the licensing constraints would mean I wouldn't have to jump through hoops to get Java to run on FreeBSD, and people could get it working on things like BeOS / YellowTab. At the moment, it's write once, run anywhere (as long as anywhere is Windows/Linux/Solaris x86 or Solaris SPARC).

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    9. Re:Everything except Java? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are aware that the JVM specs are widely available, correct? You don't need the source code to follow the specs. Just as I don't need IIS's code to make an HTTP server.

    10. Re:Everything except Java? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      If Sun open sourced Java and gave everyone five bucks for downloading it, people would bitch that it should be ten dollars and continue with the tired, "its just a ploy because of reduced market share." Enough!!

    11. Re:Everything except Java? by Arandir · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      What is going on with Slashdot? Why do they keep duplicating stories all over the board and ignoring the demand to stop it?

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
    12. Re:Everything except Java? by chris_mahan · · Score: 1

      Repeat after me: Advertising revenue.

      --

      "Piter, too, is dead."

    13. Re:Everything except Java? by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      I think they are seeing some success in the limited models of Novell/Suse, Redhat, and probably to a greater extent IBM... They have hardware to sell, given with a little less markup that before, but getting into the mid/low end server market with x86/x64 hardware can breath some new life into their company.

      The software investment has been made, and isn't bringing them anything with nobody buying, by opening it up, they can maybe gain on the hardware side.. I do think that they will probably open up java to some extent, I think they want to control the process of extending java... rather than the MS route of creating (well, reinventing) .Net and submitting to ISO and Ecma, not sure if they've submitted 2.0 at all... I don't mind java so much these days, the common hardware can *finally* handle it okay... virtual/runtime/managed environments are a good thing overall, but Java was in many ways ahead of its' time...

      Too bad the proverbial boat has sailed in regards to Java in the browser, I don't see it regaining ground there, with people more and more against 3rd party plugins, and including more blockers... esp. with what can be done with SVG + DHTML + XmlHttp/AJAX ... I think the key on the browser is better tools, but the Sun desktop under development could bring it some market share.

      Right now, it's kind of open, and a tossup between Vista, Sun's Desktop, Gnome 3 + Mono, and ??? (OS X x86 maybe?)... I don't know where things will go, but am glad to see a little innovation here.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    14. Re:Everything except Java? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess I don't understand this "opening up Java" concept. That sounds like opening up C (which makes no sense)....Java is a programming language is it not...what's to OPEN ?? It sounds like opening up a language to me...like opening up french, or english...makes no sense to me.
      Someone explain this to me please, thank you.

    15. Re:Everything except Java? by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      At the moment, it's write once, run anywhere (as long as anywhere is Windows/Linux/Solaris x86 or Solaris SPARC).

      That is so true... and even then, you have to go through extra steps now, since it isn't even included in Windows, or in most linux distro's without extra hoops to jump through.

      It isn't too bad in BSD (pc-bsd has a PBI for 1.5 runtime)... I wouldn't mind seeing more effort on a unified *nix desktop... I don't think KDE is it, only because the GPL restrictions inhibit commercial apps... though I love KDE over Gnome personally...

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    16. Re:Everything except Java? by tzot · · Score: 2, Insightful
      At the moment, it's write once, run anywhere (as long as anywhere is Windows/Linux/Solaris x86 or Solaris SPARC).
      You forgot to mention "...and as long as the JVM is the same version."

      There are lots of applications, esp in the Unix world, that also install their own private JVM...

      --
      I speak England very best
    17. Re:Everything except Java? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Note that one of the packages is Sun Directory Server, which is very, very similar to Fedora Directory Server (http://directory.fedora.redhat.com/), which has been open source for several months now (and as of today, the admin server and management console). Perhaps they want to open the source code under that project? We're ready to talk - rmeggins@redhat.com

      It's great that RH bought the Netscape stuff and have released the source for Directory Server... but when that deal was first announced, it was reported that RH was going to open-source Certificate Server as well... they now appear to be back-pedalling on that plan. Any idea if/when that will happen?

    18. Re:Everything except Java? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Opening up the Sun VM and JDK, you stupid bastard.

    19. Re:Everything except Java? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It's a sad day for nerd-kind when nerds refer to "downloading and installing" as "jumping through hoops".

      Good fuck people, is it really that difficult?

    20. Re:Everything except Java? by scott_karana · · Score: 1

      They're taking it slow enough to measure whether they're going to die or not.
      Imagine if after open-sourcing every single damn thing in a day they discovered that, say, people don't want to buy support from them anymore.
      They primarily want to survive. Go get mad at Microsoft instead or something now.

    21. Re:Everything except Java? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK...this made me really laugh.

    22. Re:Everything except Java? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's just that we have some very security sensitive customers who feel that open sourcing the Cert System would be a security risk they're not willing to take, even though the core crypto code in the Cert System (Mozilla NSS) has been open for years . . . so we're working on it.

    23. Re:Everything except Java? by Shawn+is+an+Asshole · · Score: 1

      If they would fix their fucking rpm, I'd agree with you. For a geek it's not that hard, but a n00b's eyes will glaze over when you try to explain this:

      1. Download the RPM to your desktop
      2. Open a terminal and type in cd Desktop/
      3. Type in sh jre*.bin and accept the agreement by pressing "q" and then "y"
      4. Type in sudo rpm -hiv jre*.rpm and type in your password
      5. Type ls /usr/java/* and make a note of the directory name
      6. Type in sudo nano /etc/profile.d/java.sh and in this file type:
        export JAVA_HOME=/usr/java/<dir_name>
        export PATH=$PATH:/usr/java/<dir_name>/bin
        Make sure to replace <dir_name> with the directory identified in step #5.
      7. Type in sudo chmod 755 /etc/profile.d/java.sh
      8. Type in cd /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins
      9. Type in sudo ln -s /usr/java/>dir_name</plugin/i386/ns7/libjavaplugin _oji.so .
      10. Close the terminal and remove the two jre* files from your desktop.

      Really now. The damn rpm should set it's path, and it just install it's plugin. Every other rpm I download does this, just not this broken one.

      At the very least, they should allow distributions to package it. At least they should now how to do it correctly. SUSE has a correct Java RPM, why the hell can't the makers of Java create something other than a half-assed one? They should also create a AutoPackage.

      A user should not have to go to a terminal, especially for something as simple as an install. If you do not think this is the case, try OS X for a week or two. Under that you only use a terminal if you want to, you don't need to. This is one if the reasons I like AutoPackage. The packages actually work propery, have a GUI install, and offer the option of installing in your home directory.

      --
      "It ain't a war against drugs.it's a war against personal freedom" --Bill Hicks
    24. Re:Everything except Java? by Jason+Earl · · Score: 1

      Microsoft has already screwed Sun. Or, more accurately, Microsoft got Sun to screw themselves. Java had a chance to become the de-facto way to create GUI software. Sun had even tricked Microsoft into doing much of the hard work for Sun. Microsoft had a JVM that made creating performant Java software for Windows a reality. Sun had tricked Microsoft into building on their software. Yes Microsoft extended it so that it only worked on Windows, but Sun *owned* Java, and that could have easily been fixed, and Java would have reigned supreme on the desktop and on the server.

      Flash forward a few years and Microsoft now has a completely different technology that replaces Java. It's slick, works well, and it is useful for creating both desktop and server software. Meanwhile, IBM, Sun's biggest Java ally is doing the same thing that Microsoft did earlier. Instead of pushing the pure Java Swing toolkit IBM is pushing machine-dependant SWT. In fact, this tactic has been so successful that the most popular Java desktop application around (Eclipse) is not pure Java. Now pure Java faces not one but two competitors for desktop applications, and Red Hat and the gcj crew are hard at work on a Java-alike system that compiles to machine code, and the Free Software community is hard at work creating a Java-alike system that's not likely to be terribly compatible with Sun's Java (but that will run all of the nifty Free Software written in Java). Heck, with Mono gaining popularity it's possible that Sun's own desktop (which is based on Gnome) will soon be heavily dependant on .NET instead of Java.

      The folks at Microsoft are laughing their asses off at Sun. If Sun wouldn't have gone to court then piles of Windows software would have been written in Java, and Microsoft would have to care about what Sun did with Java. What's more, Microsoft would have to worry about ISVs porting their Windows-specific Java code to pure Java and offering it for OS X or Linux. Of course, in a cruel twist of fate Microsoft is soon going to have to worry about folks porting C# code to Mono, but things would be far worse if Java had gained supremacy on the desktop. Microsoft can always scare potential defectors with the "Intellectual Property" demon with Mono, but there's no question who owns Java. If Sun hadn't flushed their cards down the toilet they'd be in the driver's seat right now.

      I am not arguing that Microsoft often subverts standards through embracing, extending, and extinguishing them. However, in this case if Sun would have allowed Microsoft to persist then the fight would be on Sun's turf (it owned Java). If Sun would have allowed Java to become the de-facto way to develop for Windows before looking to litigate things would be very different now. Heck, Sun could have probably even been able to force Microsoft to pony up more cash.

    25. Re:Everything except Java? by Shawn+is+an+Asshole · · Score: 1

      as long as anywhere is Windows/Linux/Solaris x86 or Solaris SPARC

      Don't forget about Macs. The OS X Java is very nice, especially since Apple it. The few Java apps I use (Eclipse, Azerues, LimeWire, and Jedit) seem to work (and also look&feel) the best.

      --
      "It ain't a war against drugs.it's a war against personal freedom" --Bill Hicks
    26. Re:Everything except Java? by twiddlingbits · · Score: 1

      Flash forward a few years and Microsoft now has a completely different technology that replaces Java. It's slick, works well, and it is useful for creating both desktop and server software. Slick, works well, useful? Then why are about 70-80% of the SERIOUS business related Internet applications written in Java? With more to come. .NET is not all it's cracked up to be and it for SURE only works on MS Operating Systems where as Java works on Solaris, Windows, AIX, BSD, HP-UX, VxWorks, etc. Sun sued MS for breaking the model of write once run anywhere by adding extensions and doing just as you said in your last paragraph. Sure there would have been LOTS of Java code out there, MS-Java. Sun did the right thing. As much as you seem to love the M$ stuff are you sure you aren't a MS Employee?

    27. Re:Everything except Java? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just those 4 platforms, hein? Well, FYI, a more complete list of certified Java 5.0 VMs goes as follows:

      x86-linux (3 vendors)
      x86-solaris
      x86/windows (2 vendors)
      x86-64/linux (3 vendors)
      x86-64/solaris
      x86-64/windows (2 vendors)
      itanium/hpux
      itanium/linux
      itanium/openvms
      itanium/windows
      ppc/aix
      ppc/linux
      ppc/macos
      ppc-64/aix
      ppc-64/linux
      sparc/solaris
      sparc-64/solaris
      s390/linux
      s390/z-os
      s390-64/linux
      s390-64/z-os
      alpha/openvms
      alpha/tru64
      hppa/hpux

      I count 24 architectures, from from 5 more or less independent vendors (Sun, IBM, Bea, Apple, HP). Maybe I missed some.

      Plus, let's not forget everything from phones to PDAs and smartcards. But hey, everybody's favorite toaster ain't there... what a shame.

    28. Re:Everything except Java? by jadavis · · Score: 2, Informative

      The problem is that, if they GPL java, anybody on the planet can claim their own version of java "with just a few nifty new features". The presumption is that it must work, because it's based on Sun's code. However, if it's built from scratch on the open java specifications, the burden of proof is on the new developer to prove to his customers that it really has the same quality as Sun's java.

      The standard is open. It's not like trying to build on top of Microsoft's "shifting sands" formats. It's a clear specification. Sun is competing on the merits of it's implementation, and it's clearly winning.

      It's one thing to create GPL/BSD software yourself, or to ask for open standards so that you or someone else might be able to compete fairly.

      However, I really think free software advocates go overboard when they demand specific licensing from a corporation which is already one of the leaders in open source contributions (surpassed only by IBM, if at all). And Sun is a powerful leader when it comes to open standards. And they do a good job of implementation.

      One wonders whether the people demanding GPL jvm (and the 100 derivitive implementations that are sure to follow) are really Sun's customers.

      --
      Social scientists are inspired by theories; scientists are humbled by facts.
    29. Re:Everything except Java? by JonJ · · Score: 1

      The problem is that, if they GPL java, anybody on the planet can claim their own version of java "with just a few nifty new features".
      Yeah, instead they made sure that the FOSS community will make their own damn java, which is under way. Way to go to prevent fragmentation.

      --
      -- Linux user #369862
    30. Re:Everything except Java? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1
      The problem is that, if they GPL java, anybody on the planet can claim their own version of java "with just a few nifty new features".
      No, they won't be able to. They will only be able to claim their own version of Our-Super-Language, derived from the code base of Sun Java (tm). Which will obviously not hold water for any decent manager out there, who wants Java (tm), not an imitation of it.

      Really, for me it's a matter of convenience first and foremost. The fact that installing Java is not as simple as pkg_add/emerge/apt-get solely for licensing reasons is more than slightly annoying. Why do I have to download the .bin file manually and put it into distfiles for portage, or run it through a special script to produce a .deb file for apt?

      But yes, being able to improve the code and share the changes with others (maybe even Sun itself!) so they can build upon it further is also important. But annoyances have to be dealt with first. GPL'ing the code effectively solves both problems, so why not go for it?

    31. Re:Everything except Java? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1
      I'm not demanding a GPL'd Java. I have no particular love of the GPL, and I'd be happy with the CDDL or similar. What I would really like is for them to remove the distribution constraints - if I package Java for a different OS then I should be able to distribute it. Similarly, they could be a bit more friendly towards porting efforts. To install Java on FreeBSD, you have to manually fetch the Java source code from Sun (no automatic fetching, no mirroring by the FreeBSD team).

      As for fragmentation, simply make one of the requirements for the Java name that the java.* namespace has to contain all of the classes / methods that the spec says, and no others. People are free to add things in com.* and org.* - Apple add most of Cocoa in com.apple.*, and no one complains about that.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    32. Re:Everything except Java? by MPHellwig · · Score: 1

      Please define "open up"

    33. Re:Everything except Java? by Taladar · · Score: 1

      Specs are to Code as End User Manual is to Blueprints.

    34. Re:Everything except Java? by roughshod_coder · · Score: 1

      It seems to me that Sun has been managing their business poorly with exception to the Java brand which has flourished. Why open source a project that obviously does not need help from the community ? If Sun were to to bankrupt then open up Java, other than that the language has survived just fine under Suns control and looks to do better with the advent of these moves.
      I would like to hear some reasoning where Java would be better open sourced instead of the lame complaining from the "everything should be open sourced" crowd.

    35. Re:Everything except Java? by Jason+Earl · · Score: 1

      I am as far from an MS employee as you can possibly get. I just wish that it was feasible to write desktop software in Java. Quite frankly, it's not. The situation improves a bit thanks to IBM and SWT, but that's not really Java, is it? I want Java to win, but, from where I stand Sun is in the way.

      The fact of the matter is that I hack in Java for a living, but when I have to write the GUI stuff I either have to use HTML or use something like .NET. Java really isn't much of an alternative on the desktop. It says something about Java's prowess on the desktop that in the Free Software world Java is losing out to Mono.

    36. Re:Everything except Java? by aCapitalist · · Score: 1

      No, you and the others that have bought that story just don't get it. Microsoft was never going to let Sun dictate the language direction for their desktop. In fact, it would have been crazy for any company to let Sun dictate. What Sun could have done is just Microsoft add some extensions so that proper desktop development could have been done. Sun is clueless when it comes to desktop development, as can be seen by the failure of the Java client. At the least, you would have had a bunch of crossplatform libraries that weren't Microsoft specific. Now Microsoft comes along with .NET and Sun has absolutely no leverage. You can always count on Sun to do the stupidest thing possible.

    37. Re:Everything except Java? by twiddlingbits · · Score: 1

      So Sun let's MS TAKE Java just because MS wanted some new features for the "desktop"? Now jump ahead 5 yra and MS has "server" software you don't think they would be pushing "their" Java on that if they had it?? News flash, there is ANOTHER market out there called the SERVER market that Sun and IBM dominate. Sun did the right thing for it's long-term future. That was NOT stupid.

  4. It's a sham by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They're only supporting open source to help erode Microsoft's stranglehold.

    1. Re:It's a sham by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, what people won't buy, we'll try to give to them free.

  5. uhm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ok, so what do they have other than Java that hasn't been opensourced and people really use?

    1. Re:uhm... by mindtriggerz · · Score: 1

      Solaris 10. It's pretty great, even thoug I'm a linux user

    2. Re:uhm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good point. If no one buys it, Sun will open source it.

  6. Does that include Sun Clustering? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I'd sure like to try that out. Veritas is too expensive.

    1. Re:Does that include Sun Clustering? by nbvb · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, you really don't.

      It's like the circus --- just 'cause they give the elephant poop away for free doesn't mean you want it. :-)

      Seriously, Sun Cluster is broken. I personally have converted many a' cluster to VCS just to get away from Sun cluster.

    2. Re:Does that include Sun Clustering? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strange, I've converted many a VCS implementation back to one that's adequately supported.

    3. Re:Does that include Sun Clustering? by assantisz · · Score: 1

      When was the last time you tried Sun Cluster? I assume it's been a while and you are a VCS shop now. Sun Cluster 3.x is a very decent product and we phased out VCS for it (also quite a while ago).

    4. Re:Does that include Sun Clustering? by PsychoSid · · Score: 1
      Whilst moving off-topic somewhat Sun Cluster v3 is little better than the horror that was v2.

      VCS is so far removed from Sun Cluster (most of the agents are scripts etc) it's not even funny.

    5. Re:Does that include Sun Clustering? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In actual answer to your question, yes it does. Plus the agents (eg. for Oracle RAC etc). It's well worth a look - SunCluster is (IMHO) the best clustering software out there. Read up on it first though, it's *not* a layered product on top of the OS (like VCS). Rather, the OS itself becomes cluster aware (you need to boot using the "-x" flag if you want to boot a node outside of the cluster). The result is that you can't simply "install -> play -> uninstall". Once installed, the node is a cluster node until an OS re-install.

  7. If only Java... by Btarlinian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is a great thing Sun is doing. I wouldn't argue with that. I just wish that they would open up Java also. If only.
    And maybe FP? (literally)

  8. The only problem... by shmotlock · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    is it is Java. I wish people could get over their addiction to garbage collection.

    --
    - John Smilanick (http://www.johnsmilanick.com/
  9. Sun getting desperate by rubycodez · · Score: 1, Troll

    Sun's floating more trial balloons in order to counter decreasing mind and market share, none of them a new idea, just following.

    1. Re:Sun getting desperate by cold+fjord · · Score: 2, Interesting


      Who are they following? When did HP open the source to HP/UX, True 64 (Digital) Unix, and Openview? Or did IBM open AIX, Tivoli,and the Rational tools?

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    2. Re:Sun getting desperate by nsrCZ · · Score: 1

      You don't know, what you are talking about. Losing market share? SOlaris has grown during the last year up to the 3.4 millions downloads, and 10000 registered contributors at the openoffice.org. Sun has entered the x86 (x64) server market and made it from some 70+position up to top 5 - in less then one year. Netbeans has grown from 18% in the spring up to 24% now (about half of the year). There is 1billion java-enabled devices in the world. They have introduced Niagara chip, which is better than anything you have ever cooled by fans, feed with power and used for your business. If this is decreasing market share, then I would like to know, how the growth looks like. I am not a SUN employee.

    3. Re:Sun getting desperate by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      following Linux kernel + distros, because it's been so successful and grabbing so much server market

    4. Re:Sun getting desperate by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      downloads mean NOTHING, I work in big datacenters, and Linux use is growing while the Sun boxes are being mothballed. Enterprises don't use Sun's J2EE server crap, they pay money for weblogic and IBM and such (Oracle and Sun can't even GIVE their Java server wares away). So they're number five in x86-64, but that means #1 to #4 is eating their lunch. Sun is struggling.

  10. How much? by labratuk · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    Sun's President and COO Jonathan Schwartz announced that Sun will be opening its enterprise software in a manner similar to Solaris 10.

    So... not very much then.

    --
    Malike Bamiyi wanted my assistance.
    1. Re:How much? by adrianmonk · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Sun's President and COO Jonathan Schwartz announced that Sun will be opening its enterprise software in a manner similar to Solaris 10.
      So... not very much then.

      Looks pretty open to me. I can browse the source online or I can go download it.

      And it's all under a license which is quite similar to the Mozilla Public License.

      If you think this is "not very" open, could you be more specific about why and how?

    2. Re:How much? by kaffiene · · Score: 1

      ...because he's another whiney slashbot tosser who hates Sun for not giving away absolutely everything they own for free.

    3. Re:How much? by burnin1965 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The open solaris license looks like a nice open source license but there seem to be some conflicts when you go to download Solaris 10 binary CDs or the DVD and must agree to additional licensing terms such as:

      5(b) You may make a single archival copy of Software, but otherwise may not copy, modify, or distribute Software. However if the Sun documentation accompanying Software lists specific portions of Software, such as header files, class libraries, reference source code, and/or redistributable files, that may be handled differently, you may do so only as provided in the Sun documentation.

      I guess I have to actually download the disks to know for certain what I can or can't do as the information from their website seems contradictory.


      5(d) Unless enforcement is prohibited by applicable law, you may not decompile, or reverse engineer Software.

      Wow, thats not very open, and what is the point if the source is available?


      5(f) You may not publish or provide the results of any benchmark or comparison tests run on Software to any third party without the prior written consent of Sun.

      My, a bit touchy about how people may talk about us, are we?


      5(g) Software is confidential and copyrighted.

      Umm, yes it is copyrighted, but is it confidential if its open source?


      5(h) Unless otherwise specified, if Software is delivered with embedded or bundled software that enables functionality of Software, you may not use such software on a stand-alone basis or use any portion of such software to interoperate with any program(s) other than Software.

      So its all Solaris or none of our code at all. Whatever, too bad they don't see it both ways.


      5(i) Software may contain programs that perform automated collection of system data and/or automated software updating services. System data collected through such programs may be used by Sun, its subcontractors, and its service delivery partners for the purpose of providing you with remote system services and/or improving Sun's software and systems.

      Oh great, I have to accept spyware if I want to run Solaris?


      6 Software may contain Java technology. You may not create additional classes to, or modifications of, the Java technology, except under compatibility requirements available under a separate agreement available at www.java.net.

      Geez, kinda touchy about people touching their java as well. Very strange.

      The license really isn't too bad, short and sweet, and at some point I may click on the accept check box and download Solaris 10 to check it out, but I still wonder how supportive Sun is of open source. Do they only support it if they have little choice and then only if you use it in a way that will not benefit anyone else?

    4. Re:How much? by Peter+La+Casse · · Score: 1
      If you think this is "not very" open, could you be more specific about why and how?

      If you actually want to know the answer, most of the flak Sun gets seems to be because they intentionally chose an open source license that's not compatible with the GPL. One of the huge benefits of open source is that different projects can share each others' code; witness the synergy that happens between the different BSDs. They have the same license, so they can cherry-pick each others' best features, and as a result they all win. The CDDL effectively blocks this from happening between OpenSolaris and other systems, and in fact, there's even debate over whether or not an OpenSolaris fork that uses the Solaris kernel and a GNU userland would even be legal.

    5. Re:How much? by The+Man · · Score: 1
      The open solaris license looks like a nice open source license but there seem to be some conflicts when you go to download Solaris 10 binary CDs or the DVD and must agree to additional licensing terms

      Well, Solaris 10 is a proprietary Sun product. It's no surprise that there are additional or conflicting terms for it. There are plenty of analogues to use; for many years, BSDI sold (without source, and under very restrictive terms) various derivatives of the open source BSD operating system. Perfectly acceptable, and when Solaris 11 comes out I'm sure it will have terms different from those of the OpenSolaris technology too. The license allows this, and you shouldn't be surprised by it.

      If the Solaris license makes you unhappy, don't use Solaris. Use one of the other OpenSolaris-based distributions instead; each distributor is free to offer you any terms he or she likes, provided that the source files they use that come from OpenSolaris are made available to you. You really should go read the license.

      I guess I have to actually download the disks to know for certain what I can or can't do as the information from their website seems contradictory.

      Actually this term exists partly because a lot of the software included in Solaris is open source, and you have additional rights to that software that aren't specified on that page. Do you really want to read 500 pages detailing all the licenses and what they cover? Especially since many of them are familiar licenses you probably know and love, like BSD and GPL? I sure don't want to.

      Wow, thats not very open, and what is the point if the source is available?

      You've answered your own question...the parts of Solaris that are open don't need to be reverse-engineered. The parts that aren't, well, Sun can license those under whatever terms they like. Again, if you don't like the Solaris license, you have a choice of distributions, just like you have with other open source operating systems.

      My, a bit touchy about how people may talk about us, are we?

      If you look at the Solaris Express (for Solaris 11) license terms, you'll notice that this has been removed. Again, Solaris 10 predates OpenSolaris and is not an open source operating system. Of course the benchmarking term does not apply to source or binaries you receive via OpenSolaris, either, only to the official Sun distribution.

      I still wonder how supportive Sun is of open source. Do they only support it if they have little choice and then only if you use it in a way that will not benefit anyone else?

      Check out the other distributions available already and other projects people are starting to work on. Sun gets nothing directly from these - neither revenue, nor opportunity to sell services or other software. Of course Sun does benefit, too; it gets increased mindshare for Solaris and perhaps a larger installed base of Solaris-compatible operating systems. But to say that these uses don't benefit anyone other than Sun is just wrong.

    6. Re:How much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not much in "lines changed" but oh boy how those few bytes change the meaning.
      Look through the clause-by-clause comparison and you'll notice that the entire "Intellectual Property Matters" clause (3.4 of the mozilla license) is missing. That clause basically permits patent-time-bombs.

    7. Re:How much? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The open solaris license looks like a nice open source license but there seem to be some conflicts when you go to download Solaris 10
      Maybe it's because, you know, OpenSolaris and Solaris 10 are not quite the same thing? Kinda like OpenSuSE and SLES are different products as well...
    8. Re:How much? by labratuk · · Score: 1
      The license is deliberately GPL incompatible. So you can't use anything from opensolaris for any other project. They're not 'giving' anything to the Free software community, as much as they would like people to believe otherwise.

      Most significantly, it doesn't honor the most important freedom of Free software - independence from the vendor. If Sun decides to shut the playground gates tomorrow, that's it. If you've grown to depend on any of it, you're stuck inside.

      If they don't want to port it to architecture X (that you need to run it on), you can't fork it. Decision made.

      This is 'open source' code in the absolute worst meaning of the phrase, and a red herring as far as I'm concerned. "You can look, but keep your hands in your pockets."

      And it's all under a license which is quite similar to the Mozilla Public License.

      You're forgetting that Mozilla is dual licensed under the MPL and GPL.
      --
      Malike Bamiyi wanted my assistance.
    9. Re:How much? by labratuk · · Score: 1
      ...because he's another whiney slashbot tosser who hates Sun for not giving away absolutely everything they own for free.

      I don't "hate Sun". I don't give a shit about Sun. I'm just saying why I have absolutely no interest in the products that they're pushing - I already have a lot of very good software that's under a much better license.

      And why the Free software community should resist having their momentum disrupted by Sun's apparently generous offer.

      If Sun wants to keep their software completely closed and secret then fine. Good for them. That's none of my business.
      --
      Malike Bamiyi wanted my assistance.
    10. Re:How much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd say that it's the GPL that's intentionally incompatible with licenses such as the CDDL, and not the opposite. Let's all not forget that it's the GPL that is viral, not the CDDL.

      The GPL is also incompatible with Apache's License, the MPL, the CPL. And, guess what? The CDDL isn't. Stop blaming other licenses for not being GPL compatible when it's basically the GPL's own fault!

      The GPL lives in it's own (dream) world, and some people (from the real world) just can't go there. Sun couldn't (dual-)license OpenSolaris as GPL even if they wanted, as there are some parts of it they don't own, can't relicense and aren't GPL compatibly licenced - hence the file-based non-viral license.

      Also the GPL is being successfully used for many comercial products not because it's "open" but because it's just "closed enough". Look at Qt and MySQL: the GPL is activelly being used to charge for comercial use of the software. That much isn't possible with licenses like the CDDL.

    11. Re:How much? by Peter+La+Casse · · Score: 1
      I'd say that it's the GPL that's intentionally incompatible with licenses such as the CDDL, and not the opposite.

      That's certainly true, but the opposite of what I said would be to say that the GPL was specifically made incompatible with the CDDL, which is not true, since the GPL came first.

      The GPL is also incompatible with Apache's License...

      See this post, which I made two and a half hours before your post. It not only addresses that statement, but the other relevant portions of your post as well. (I choose not to address the "GPL sucks" stuff, because it's irrelevant to the question of why people object to Sun's actions.)

    12. Re:How much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one cares about the GPL except an annoying few.

    13. Re:How much? by adrianmonk · · Score: 1
      The license is deliberately GPL incompatible. So you can't use anything from opensolaris for any other project.

      Because all other open source projects under the planet are licensed under the GPL, presumably? On the planet where I live, not all open source projects are under the GPL.

      Most significantly, it doesn't honor the most important freedom of Free software - independence from the vendor. If Sun decides to shut the playground gates tomorrow, that's it. If you've grown to depend on any of it, you're stuck inside.

      Whose ass did you pull that idea out of? The FAQ for the CDDL (the license under which OpenSolaris is released) says this:

      Can Sun ever take away the OpenSolaris source code?

      No. The code is available to the community forever.

      Are you saying the FAQ misrepresents what the license allows you to do? If so, could you explain specifically how?

      If they don't want to port it to architecture X (that you need to run it on), you can't fork it. Decision made.

      You seem to have a wide assortment of readily-available asses out of which to pull "creative" new ideas. If it can't be ported to another architecture, then why is there already a project to port it to PowerPC?

      Also, on what do you base the idea that you can't fork it?

      You're forgetting that Mozilla is dual licensed under the MPL and GPL.

      Nope, I'm not forgetting that. To be pedantic, they are working on triply-licensing stuff under MPL, GPL, and LGPL. But why is that relevant? BSD stuff isn't under the GPL. Are you saying it's bad to license code purely under the BSD license? As far as I can tell, the CDDL is more supportive of keeping the software open since the CDDL requires changes to the source to be publish (if the binaries are published) but the BSD license does not.

      In fact, if someone had their own source for a new project that they wanted to release and they were considering either the CDDL or the BSD license, can you make any kind of argument (other than "the BSD license existed first") that the BSD license isn't worse for maintaining the principles of open source software than the CDDL is?

      And what about Apache? That's licensed under the Apache License, and it says on apache.org that "The Apache Software Foundation is still trying to determine if this version [the current version] of the Apache License is compatible with the GPL."

      And what about PHP? It's not licensed under the GPL either. It uses the PHP License. php.net has an FAQ that says:

      Why is PHP 4 not dual-licensed under the GNU General Public License (GPL) like PHP 3 was?

      GPL enforces many restrictions on what can and cannot be done with the licensed code.

      I really can't see what is wrong with the CDDL. In the end, the only real problem I see with OpenSolaris being truly open is the patent issue. Unmodified files definitely have authorization to use any Sun patents, but modified files might or might not. This is not a problem with the CDDL, but it might be a problem with the OpenSolaris code base if you think Sun is going to sue anyone for using patents in derived works.

    14. Re:How much? by adrianmonk · · Score: 1
      The open solaris license looks like a nice open source license but there seem to be some conflicts when you go to download Solaris 10 binary CDs or the DVD and must agree to additional licensing terms

      Sun owns the copyright on the code for Solaris. As the copyright holder, they can license it under one license, or they can license it under multiple different licenses. As a licensee (i.e. user), you can choose which license you wish to license it under.

      Sun has, for many years, released Solaris under a closed-source, binary-only license. That is one way to get the code. When you downloaded the CDs you downloaded, you choose that license. Sun has the right (unlike anyone else) to offer it on those licensing terms because they own the copyright.

      However, if you want, you are free to download the source code and compile it yourself. In that case, it would seem that none of those restrictions would apply to you.

      Honestly, I have to admit that using the same boilerplate binary license that Sun has used for years and years is not the most appropriate thing for binaries that have been produced from open source code. But the fact remains that the license only covers the binaries and does not restrict you from doing whatever you like with binaries produced from the source code.

      And honestly, since in principle you could produce basically those same binaries yourself, I can't see how it would really restrict those either. It just seems like a bit of an anachronistic quirk. Maybe Sun needs to write a more appropriate binary license (if any?) for those files.

    15. Re:How much? by labratuk · · Score: 1
      Because all other open source projects under the planet are licensed under the GPL, presumably?

      No, but the most significant members of the Free software toolchain are.

      No. The code is available to the community forever.

      To do what with? The issue is not whether Sun can suddenly change its mind, but that you can't do something Sun doesn't want you to do with it. If you've grown to depend on the software and hit this restriction, it's almost as bad as being locked into proprietary software.

      You seem to have a wide assortment of readily-available asses out of which to pull "creative" new ideas. If it can't be ported to another architecture,

      And you seem to have a great talent for strawman attacks. I didn't say it "couldn't" be ported to other architectures. The powerpc port exists because Sun has embraced it and approves of it. If it were not in Sun's company interest to have Solaris (etc.) running on a particular family of processor (i.e. new architecture XYZ is a threat to their product lines), they could disallow it.

      Also, on what do you base the idea that you can't fork it?

      Ah, now you see this is where it gets complex. I too on first reading thought that it would allow forking, glossing over the patent paragraphs as that (I thought) was a seperate issue. You hit on it in your final paragraph. It's all about the patent licenses. Now as you say there are different interpretations on whether forks are 'protected*'. I personally interpret it to mean that they are not. Sun has one of the largest patent portfolios in the computer industry. Combining these factors, to me it doesn't really look like a nice stable place to base my long term software decisions on.

      BSD stuff isn't under the GPL. Are you saying it's bad to license code purely under the BSD license?

      Wow. Hyperbole strawman.

      No. The (modified) BSD license is GPL compatible. It's a good license. I wouldn't personally use it.

      In fact, if someone had their own source for a new project that they wanted to release and they were considering either the CDDL or the BSD license, can you make any kind of argument (other than "the BSD license existed first") that the BSD license isn't worse for maintaining the principles of open source software than the CDDL is?

      This is irrelevant, but it depends what you mean by 'advise'. 'Advise' him on what would be better for the software and community in the long term or 'advise' him on the best license if he wanted control over the project and was perhaps thinking of going insane and filing hundreds of software patents? The CDDL would be great for that.

      And what about Apache? That's licensed under the Apache License

      No, it's not GPL compatible. But that's less objectionable because a) There isn't a huge intersection of code between the big GPL toolchain and Apache code. There is with opensolaris - it is basically performs the same function and there are huge amounts of code that could be shared. b) It isn't done (apparently) intentionally to drive an incompatibility wedge through the middle of the Free software world.

      Really all I wanted to say is there we are rather poorly reiterating a huge thread that has been going on in debian-legal and lwn and rather than continue a huge ridiculous slashdot thread, it would be much better to read them. Because this is stupid.

      * - 'protected' in the sense of 'sure would be a shame if your restaurant got firebombed.'
      --
      Malike Bamiyi wanted my assistance.
  11. OK, so we'll open Java by thepotoo · · Score: 1, Interesting
    Right now, Sun has control of internet apps/coding. ActiveX/Visual Basic can't really compete.

    If Sun were to GPL Java, they've have every Tom, Dick and Harry making an "improved platform independant language." They lose the marketshare, and browsers/websites have to start supporting a million little random Java-like applets.

    No, thank you. I want some software (security stuff) to stay closed-source forever. I would start to seriously dout the security of Java (right now I have complete faith in it's being 100% vulnerability free) if hackers were allowed to see everything about how it works.

    I say: Smart Move Sun!

    --
    Obligatory Soundbite Catchphrase
    1. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Take a security class and learn that security through obscurity doesn't work.

      Even the US Military knows this.

      Linux is secure because it is open source.

    2. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by happymedium · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But isn't one of the whole premises of open source that allowing everyone to look at the code is, in the long run, better than "security through obscurity?" This has always made sense to me. Also, wasn't that Nessus software everyone's been talking about open source until the current version? Besides, wouldn't Java developers have a strong incentive to keep compatibility with the installed base--let's not forget how massive that base is--even if Java did become open to change? Finally, if someone did fork Java and Java were under the GPL, all forks would be GPL also, so potential problems caused by this move would be minimal...

    3. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by JanneM · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If Sun were to GPL Java, they've have every Tom, Dick and Harry making an "improved platform independant language." They lose the marketshare, and browsers/websites have to start supporting a million little random Java-like applets.

      You mean exactly like Python, Ruby, Perl and so on are suffering horribly from all their incompatible forks?

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    4. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by bill_kress · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I completely disagree with the security argument, but I do think that it's much better to have a single unified platform.

      Sun hasn't stopped people from making other compiliers (Jikes), libraries or tools. As far as I can tell, the only thing they are keeping pure is the language definition, and IMO they did that much better than any larger group could have (the development team was small and focused initially)

      Not only that, but they have been very open about the process to add features, allowing community input.

      Not only THAT, but there are systems that create their own language based on Java like BeanShell, JavaScript and Aspect Java.

      I'm MUCH more comfortable with Java in the hands of SUN than in the hands of a bunch of hackers that want to add piles of unnecessary features--I'm mad enough that sun hammered readability by adding Generics, what would have happened if we had let it become fractured.

      If you "Opened" it up, what would stop Microsoft from investing engineers and money to shred it into hundreds of confused, unsupported projects--effictivly neutering it and paving the way for a mono-platform C-flat (what they tried to accomplish in the first place)?

      Unless I'm missing something, the only reason someone might be complaining about sun not opening up java is because they have run out of other reasons to bash java and really don't want to learn a new language, or maybe they are m$ sales-scum.

      Keep that in mind next time you see a post complaining that sun won't "open up" java.

    5. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      You have hit the nail on the head, though I don't think it was the nail you were aiming at:

      Right now, Sun has control of internet apps/coding. ActiveX/Visual Basic can't really compete....
      I say: Smart Move Sun!


      You see, a market leader almost always finds it difficult to justify opening up the source to their product. Again, as you put it, it is about control of internet apps and applet coding.

      As for the rest of your post... Well, we don't see every Tom, Dick, and Harry writing new and improved versions of things like Perl, Python, Ruby, and PHP. So the requirement of supporting multiple versions doesn't really appear as valid to me.

      As for the security concerns, well, Java has a decent security model (that of a sandbox). THis is what makes Java more secure than, say, ActiveX (which relies on the evil bit^W^W digital signature. The fact that there are alternative JRE's have not effected this issue. Indeed most of the work that is required to make a GPL'd JRE at the moment has to do with the classpath stuff. If Sun even opened up these classes, we could have an open source alternative.

      Of course, then they would lose control, which as you state, is exactly why they don't want to open it up. That would be like Oracle releasing the next version under an open source license....

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    6. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by CaymanIslandCarpedie · · Score: 1

      Sun has control of internet apps/coding. ActiveX/Visual Basic can't really compete.

      ahhhh.......huh? OK lets ignore PHP, Perl, Ruby, etc and go to the heart of it (ActiveX/Visual Basic). Have you heard of this (.NET 1.0) , this (.NET 1.1), or this (.NET 2.0)?

      I'm not going to sit here and make pointless arguments about better/worse, but I don't think ActiveX/VB is even supported anymore. Wasn't it's final version about 6 years ago? Its not quite as bad as "Sun has control of internet apps/coding. COBOL can't really compete", but I still find it funny ;-)

      --
      "reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Steven Colbert
    7. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by shadowmatter · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Huh?

      Really, Sun has nothing to hide for security reasons. Your JDK already comes with the source code for all the public libraries found in the standard JRE distribution -- see src.zip in your JDK folder. And Sun doesn't try to stop you from writing your own JDK and JRE -- it is all spelled out quite clearly here.

      The only problem is that writing all this in a clean-room fashion takes a lot of time and effort. You have to write your own JDK or classfile generator (which isn't too hard -- Eclipse already includes its own, so you can make class and JAR files on a system with only a JRE), your own JRE (which is substantial if you want it to have the efficiency of Sun's -- see the escape analysis they're including in Mustang), and most laborious of all: you have to write all the standard libraries that come with the JRE. That's why we haven't heard much from Harmony in awhile, and the cleanroom version that IBM produces is a version or so behind.

      Sun is giving everyone, including open-source, the blueprints to Java; it just isn't giving them the assembly line.

      - shadowmatter

    8. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by CaymanIslandCarpedie · · Score: 1

      Oops sorry! I didn't read far enough. I just noticed this: I would start to seriously dout the security of Java (right now I have complete faith in it's being 100% vulnerability free). Sorry, now it seems clear the whole post was a joke. Sorry for making fun before ;-)

      --
      "reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Steven Colbert
    9. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by domaener · · Score: 1
      I would start to seriously dout the security of Java (right now I have complete faith in it's being 100% vulnerability free) if hackers were allowed to see everything about how it works.

      First, if you are certain that Java is vulnerability free right now it follows that Java will remain vulnerability free indefinitely (assuming no new vulnerabilities are introduced). This holds regardless of source code availability.

      Second, the Java source code is already available for download on Sun's site assuming you accept the Sun Community License (SCSL). It is hence safe to assume that black hats looking for Java vulnerabilities already have access to the source code.

      In summary; the score 5/insightful of the parent of this posting is a mystery :-)

    10. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by chris_mahan · · Score: 1

      On the day that Sun puts the code for all versions of the JVM and the JDK on sf.net under the GPL, then it will be open. Until then, they are playing a game of semantics.

      --

      "Piter, too, is dead."

    11. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by glwtta · · Score: 4, Insightful
      No, thank you. I want some software (security stuff) to stay closed-source forever. I would start to seriously dout the security of Java (right now I have complete faith in it's being 100% vulnerability free) if hackers were allowed to see everything about how it works.

      It sounds like you are joking, but one can never tell here - you are joking, right?

      --
      sic transit gloria mundi
    12. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by killjoe · · Score: 1

      "If Sun were to GPL Java, they've have every Tom, Dick and Harry making an "improved platform independant language."

      They have, it's called python, ruby, perl, lisp, haskell, ocaml etc.

      Oh and parrot is shaping up nicely as the one VM to rule them all too.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    13. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by Shinobi · · Score: 2, Funny

      Question: Why are Quake/Quake II clients compiled from source distrusted by most of the communities that still play those games, including the competitive scene?

      Answer: Because the open sourced code increased the number of cheats exponentially.

    14. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Today's free hint.

      Correllation does not imply causation.

    15. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by hey! · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, don't forget that Java has been forked: J++. The fork was incompatible. The technology in the fork was re-skinned as C# and dot Net, which is specifically intended to compete -- that is to say to slow or reverse the adoption -- of Java.

      The difference between Java and the languages you mention is its strategic importance. That this stems in part from historical reasons and is not entirely (or even at all depending on your POV) due to technical superiority is irrelevant.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    16. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by Zhiroc · · Score: 1
      I'd say the difference to Python, Perl, et al. is the client-side platform nature of Java. There's a very good example of what happens when there are "platform wars" like this: HTML.

      Look at how MS took HTML and started "enhancing" it. Good or bad, the fact that their installed base footprint was so big their version of HTML started being the one people wrote to. Look at all the web sites that could not be viewed well (or at all) using Netscape/Mozilla/Firefox/Opera. I dare say that would have happened to Java as well.

      I'm not all that familiar with J++ etc. and how they translate to the client desktop, but even if they had the same model as Java, by forcing them to not be Java, at least you can keep them well segregated.

    17. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by listen · · Score: 1

      Because those games relied on latency hiding techniques that make security impossible, but the cheaters were too stupid to break a remote attestation scheme? Sad really.

    18. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by bill_kress · · Score: 1

      My point was, this is not a good thing and I don't want it. Anyone who does is just anti-Java and using that as an excuse, or doesn't understand the issue. Period.

      SUN SHOULD NOT OPEN SOURCE JAVA. When they do it will be bad for all involved--NOTHING GOOD CAN COME FROM IT.

    19. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by owlstead · · Score: 1

      Although there are many (many many) similarities between C# and Java, to say C# is a reskinned Java makes no sense. Different syntax, different strategies (exceptions, static methods, properties, aliases, assemblies etc etc), different virtual machines...you get the idea.

      Since J++ is no more, we now have J#, which (Microsoft claims) is 1.4.2 compatible. I don't know how much of that is true (my tests compiled without a hitch though). Of course, you *could* go and use .NET from it, but it makes little sense for new products, since it misses some specific .NET functionalities (and next to none MSDN examples are written for Java, so you would need to learn C# anyway).

    20. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by hey! · · Score: 1

      Although there are many (many many) similarities between C# and Java, to say C# is a reskinned Java makes no sense. Different syntax, different strategies (exceptions, static methods, properties, aliases, assemblies etc etc), different virtual machines...you get the idea.

      Different syntax: not very. Some syntactic sugar like delegates.

      exceptions: pretty much what you'd get if java's root exception class was RuntimeException.

      static methods: pretty much just enforces what is considerd good proactice in referencing static methods in java.

      properties: accessor methods are a great idea, and very useful, but it's not a very profound difference; it's almost at the level of syntactic sugar.

      assemblies: I don't see how these are different from jar files with certain mandatory metadata.

      different virtual machines: always was in the case of J++.

      I don't think its a coincidence that MS began its own VM after the license deal fell through. While

      I would say that overall C# is cleaner than Java. There's lots of little things that add up to a great deal of convenience.

      The fall through of the deal was a great boon to Microsoft, since they had developd a lot of ideas and experience with J++ , but no longer had to worry about backward compatibility with some things from the Oak era that were in retrospect mistakes (checked exceptions by default). I don't know if they reused any of the code in the microsoft Java VM, but they certainly reused a lot of their ideas and strategies from their Java effort in dot Net. IIRC, C# delegates were first introduced in J++, for example.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    21. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by chris_mahan · · Score: 1

      Oh yes... Something good can come of it...

      Feeling now empowered with a sense of ownership, code gurus everywhere (but mostly at fortune 500 companies) will actually improve the code, make java smaller, faster, and more easily deployable. Then they will really recommend it instead of pointing to http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html, and the adoption rate will increase even more.

      Then, of course, the Sun version will become obsolete (too slow, too buggy, etc) and everybody will use GNUJava and the world will be a Much Happier Place.

      Of course, at that point, a plethora of existing software will start getting into the language. Java will support XML-RPC, REST, and SOAP out-of-the-box. It will support a whole bunch of things that now Sun won't put in.

      But best of all, the bugs will be cleaned out. Slava Pestov, the lead developer on jEdit (http://www.jedit.org/, which I use daily as my primary editor), will be able to write applications without feeling like this: http://www.jroller.com/page/slava?entry=java_1_5_w indow_focus.

      You don't have to take my word for it. Just find out what real java programmers are saying. Also, take a look at http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/beyondjava/.

      Sun is not currently able to maintain the level of language development to compete against python, ruby, smalltalk and a veritable army of smaller, nimbler tools. Java is fast becoming the COBOL of the internet age: yes, lots of companies use it for mission critical stuff, but newer technologies have gobbled up the geeks. It's only a matter of time before it's obsolete. See http://paulgraham.com/pypar.html.

      I am not against Java. I am against Java staying the way it is today. I want java to grow. The hacker community at large will do a better job than Sun Microsystems. Period. Besides, Sun is going down. Larger companies have completely disappeared. I just went to their web site, priced a workstation, and priced an equivalent workstation at hp.com for $1K less. You tell me. They will probably remain at about 1/3 of their size today as a provider of high-end hardware. Like Cray.

      --

      "Piter, too, is dead."

    22. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by bill_kress · · Score: 1

      The problem is, there is no reason for Java to grow. It absolutely should not change. The whole point of Java is that it is a simple and elegant solution to most programming problems.

      I don't use python, ruby, smalltalk or a veritable army of smaller, nimbler tools because they are smaller and nimbler! They move. Geeks play with them. I just want to work. I don't want my language changing out from under me.

      Why not leave Java the way it is (for me) and you take any of these other tools. As you age (I've been programming for 25 years or so) you may start to see the advantages of stability, elegance and readability and how they strongly overweigh agility and the feature of the day.

      Until then, all I can do is beg sun to continue to defend my favorite language against those that want to add features, fracture it, etc.

      Seriously, if someone thinks they would prefer a more nimble language, why are they even concerned what sun does with Java? It is obviously not the language for them, and since Sun doesn't prevent you from making a similar language--feel free to do so and start modifying it.

      What is the advantage of opening Java over the users you listed just creating a similar related language or set of languages? In your previous post you never addressed that.

      Can't you admit that different programmers need different things, and that java is just what I need, and that sun opening it would simply ruin it for me and not help anyone else (since nobody is preventing them from creating their own now?)

    23. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by chris_mahan · · Score: 1

      > The problem is, there is no reason for Java to grow. It absolutely should not change. The whole point of Java is that it is a simple and elegant solution to most programming problems.

      You can tell Sun not to work on Mustang then.

      Java has bugs. The language needs to change.

      > I don't use python, ruby, smalltalk or a veritable army of smaller, nimbler tools because they are smaller and nimbler! They move. Geeks play with them. I just want to work. I don't want my language changing out from under me.

      Use ANSI C.

      Why do you think the linux kernel is written in C?

      > Until then, all I can do is beg sun to continue to defend my favorite language against those that want to add features, fracture it, etc.

      Yes, all you can do is beg. But does Sun Microsystems Inc. care what you think? They will do whatever they have to do to maximize shareholder value, so, your begging is a waste of time.

      > Seriously, if someone thinks they would prefer a more nimble language, why are they even concerned what sun does with Java? It is obviously not the language for them, and since Sun doesn't prevent you from making a similar language--feel free to do so and start modifying it.

      Yes, that is true. And that is why the geeks have moved on. Geeks, I'll have you know, are not pimply-faced 19 year olds in basements. I'm typing from the second floor of a fortune 200 building while listening to a veery boring meeting with my netcom headset. We use java, and we use COBOL, and asp, and .net, and python. I develop tools in python when management asks: Can you do this in 10 minutes? And they know I use python. We use the languages that make sense. Using Java is making less sense each passing day.

      > What is the advantage of opening Java over the users you listed just creating a similar related language or set of languages? In your previous post you never addressed that.

      You can keep running whatever version of the VM you like (and it probably won't be touched at all except for maybe some securiy-critical back-ports). We're not stopping you. I'm talking about Java 3, 4 and 5 in 2007, 2010 and 2013.

      "Standing on the shoulders of giants."

      > Can't you admit that different programmers need different things, and that java is just what I need, and that sun opening it would simply ruin it for me and not help anyone else (since nobody is preventing them from creating their own now?)

      I absolutely think the appropriate programming languages should be used for the tasks at hand. Sun can do whatever they want, and you can do whatever you want. But neither you or they should complain that nobody uses java in 8 years, and billions of lines of codes go to waste, including yours. What do you think is happening now with people that programmed all those client-server apps in VB5&6 in the 1995-2000 timeframe? Companies are setting up servers and terminal servicing into them to run "old" vb5 apps.

      Sun it taking Java down that road.

      I know. I was a VB programmer. I junked all that and deleted years of work because "it's obsolete".

      By the way, Python started in 1991 to Java's 1995. Smalltalk goes back further. Java is the new kid on the block.

      You really should take a look at python. You'll like it. I promise. Bruce Eckel agrees. See http://www.artima.com/intv/aboutme.html. You know Bruce, he's the guy who wrote "Thinking in Java", the de-facto bible of learning java programming.

      I feel your pain and frustration, Bill, but in this world what you don't know can definitely hurt you. I'm not trying to hurt you, I'm trying to help you. (not-so-obscure movie line).

      --

      "Piter, too, is dead."

    24. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by bill_kress · · Score: 1

      >> What is the advantage of opening Java over the users you listed just creating a similar related language or set of languages? In your previous post you never addressed that.

      >You can keep running whatever version of the VM you like (and it probably won't be touched at all except for maybe some securiy-critical back-ports). We're not stopping you. I'm talking about Java 3, 4 and 5 in 2007, 2010 and 2013.

      I like the bugfixes and slow/steady pace of feature addition (except, as I said, for templates which are the worst thing ever to happen to the language, and it will get much worse if they open it up!)

      Also, you didn't attempt to answer the question at all. What is the advantage to SUN opening it up over just creating all the other versions you said without Sun open-sourcing it?

      > Can't you admit that different programmers need different things, and that java is just what I need, and that sun opening it would simply ruin it for me and not help anyone else (since nobody is preventing them from creating their own now?)

      > I absolutely think the appropriate programming languages should be used for the tasks at hand. Sun can do whatever they want, and you can do whatever you want. But neither you or they should complain that nobody uses java in 8 years, and billions of lines of codes go to waste, including yours. What do you think is happening now with people that programmed all those client-server apps in VB5&6 in the 1995-2000 timeframe? Companies are setting up servers and terminal servicing into them to run "old" vb5 apps.

      > Sun it taking Java down that road.

      C has not gone down that road because it's useful. VB is a joke, I used it quite a bit, and it is a horrible development platform, really only good for prototyping. Java is the opposite, I've never seen a language that has come close, and I've used many of them.

      The problem with VB is that it has no ability to work with a group of developers. It's made as a scripting language to allow people who can't do any better to write apps. You will never see a group larger than 5-10 developers choosing to work in VB.

      > By the way, Python started in 1991 to Java's 1995. Smalltalk goes back further. Java is the new kid on the block.

      Of course. I used Python before Java. Used a few others too. I generally don't like them. For me, the most important features of a language are simplicity, readability, flexibility... things like that.

      > I feel your pain and frustration, Bill, but in this world what you don't know can definitely hurt you. I'm not trying to hurt you, I'm trying to help you. (not-so-obscure movie line).

      My guess is that we are in different realms. I work with a group on an app. Java works very well. The tools are solid and well-developed. The different versions are still very similar, so upgrades are simple. The OO model and reflection gives us the freedom to eliminate nearly all the redundant code.

      I suppose I would say that the key to coding is to be able to specify each logical concept exactly once, in the simplest most easy to read manner possible.

      In basic, the code wasn't very consistent and I could not factor the code well enough, the same with C (and C wasn't always easy to read). C++ is too confusing and the language has too many features and is quite hard to read.

      Java is just a good balance. It may not be as quick to code in as a scripting language, but it is very good at helping my team to be clear in their code and it can be used to write very good readable code.

      Any alterations can make it less so. When Sun (Well, actually the community process) added the super-for statement, auto-boxing and annotations I was quite happy. Those are all features that increase readability first, simplify code second.

      The crap about Generics is the other side of the coin. It complicates my code and has very little advantage (I generally know what I put into my collections, and auto-boxing should have been able t

    25. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by chris_mahan · · Score: 1

      Thanks for your replies.

      I unfortunately don't have time today, so I'll let this rest...

      --

      "Piter, too, is dead."

    26. Re:OK, so we'll open Java by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      the problem is as long as sun java remains the standard others will always be behind.

      if most java developers are on the sun jdk then they will produce apps that avoid falling foul of the bugs in the sun jre but don't nessacerally avoid the bugs in other jres. The apps may even end up relying on bugs in the sun jre.

      its basically the same as windows apps on wine, the app developers avoid falling foul of the bugs in windows. but unless they test on wine they are likely to fall foul of its bugs.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  12. Their hardwarre's getting better by EvilMagnus · · Score: 4, Informative

    The new x4100 servers look pretty sweet - dual core, dual proc Opteron 252 in a 1U low-power chassis. And N1 will work with RHEL as well, so long as it's on Sun hardware. It lets you do complete bare-metal installs from the OS up over the network and remote firmware patches, as well as the usual centralized patching and management. If you have to manage a bunch of similar machines, that's pretty nifty.

    --
    -EvilMagnus
  13. Good thing, or bad sign? by nurb432 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is this a good thing, a great jesture from SUN to be part of the 'open' community, or are they panicking as they go down the proverbial tube?

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:Good thing, or bad sign? by chris_mahan · · Score: 1

      Yes.

      --

      "Piter, too, is dead."

    2. Re:Good thing, or bad sign? by bad+jerkface · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'd be panicking if I had just signed a big deal with google.

      --
      It's a hand twinkler, you dumbass! And I got a bag of whoopass for you!
  14. Well it's now obvious why by waspleg · · Score: 1

    they aren't including java, after I read this headline (I won't pretend to have RTFA) I was just notified of another available update for java which I have running.. it downloaded and began installing; but not before trying to include a google searchbar for IE (which I don't even use) .. if it's opensource they undermine their benefactors.

    waspleg

  15. You sir are a true genius by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
    I want some software (security stuff) to stay closed-source forever. I would start to seriously dout the security of Java (right now I have complete faith in it's being 100% vulnerability free) if hackers were allowed to see everything about how it works.


    Security through obscurity, that really ought to keep computer criminals at bay. To prevent Tom, Dick and Harry (slashdot readers) finding any vulns in your logic, I suggest you keep it "closed source" and out of public internet forums.

    1. Re:You sir are a true genius by aled · · Score: 4, Informative

      That's FUD. You can read the source of Java anytime. You can compile it and colaborate on the new versión (6.0). You can't distribute AFAIK. There is no obscurity, all is there.

      --

      "I think this line is mostly filler"
  16. Shot at Red Hat? by Gerdts · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Sun is offering for free (as in beer) the same things that those that are going to pay for support for get with their support contracts. Sure, the free things come without timely feature patches, etc., but the barrier to using Sun software is defintely lowered. For those looking for free (libre) software from Sun, you can mostly get it too. OpenSolaris is an amazing step given the encumberances and continued business model that they had to struggle with. My guess is that most of Sun's customers will continue to pay for support even though they "don't need to." These customers tend to be the ones that believe that a Fortune 500 systems company is better prepared to deal with OS or other software problems than the outsourced IT department of a company that's core business is not software development. Those that get lured in by free beer have the option of switching to full support without changing software bits (unless they went to the libre bits).

    With Red Hat, you can get for free (as in beer and freedom) almost the same bits as paying customers get. However, if you decide midstream that you need to switch from a free customer to a paying customer, you also need to change the code that you are running. This switch can be very costly because it disrupts your business.

    It seems to me that this is an effort to pressure Red Hat into giving away RHEL. By reducing Red Hat's paying user base, Sun could put them on the ropes a bit. Again, those that feel that they really need support will still pay Red Hat.

    Until Red Hat starts giving RHEL away for free, those that are simply going after the lowest (legal) cost of acquisition along with great ISV support and low risk have a clear choice in going with Solaris. This has the potential to at least slow the uptake of RHEL.

    1. Re:Shot at Red Hat? by Neo-Rio-101 · · Score: 1

      I agree that the open sourcing of Solaris was a broadside shot at RedHat's business model.

      If Sun can do to Solaris what RedHat has done for Linux, there will be more competition - even more so given Sun's track record on operating systems and the fact that they do the hardware as well. I've had major issues installing RedHat on so called supported hardware - without a plethora of driver disks and system hacks. However OTOH, Solaris needs driver support so that it can run on any old desktop PC as well, and cope with all kinds of network, video, and RAID cards.

      Until OpenSolaris becomes distro'ed (Schillix is a nice start, but you can't really call that a distro), we should see more interest from IT admins. At the moment, OpenSolaris has ways to go yet.

      --
      READY.
      PRINT ""+-0
    2. Re:Shot at Red Hat? by wylf · · Score: 1
      Until Red Hat starts giving RHEL away for free...

      I was under the impression RHEL is already for free - not the ISOs perhaps, but the source rpms?

    3. Re:Shot at Red Hat? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about CentOS? Isn't that just RHEL for free.

    4. Re:Shot at Red Hat? by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 1

      Another problem is that if you want support on some machines but not others, you have a choice between a mixed RHEL/CentOS environment or a homogenous Solaris environment. Of course now Sun may have to deal with the customers whose problems magically all happen on the one supported box, while all the unsupported boxes never have any trouble...

    5. Re:Shot at Red Hat? by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 1

      Until OpenSolaris becomes distro'ed, we should see more interest from IT admins.

      Indeed. There is a lot of interest in OpenSolaris right now, but once there are 20 incompatible distros we can expect some serious disillusionment. Heck, some people might even flee for the comfort of FreeBSD. :-)

    6. Re:Shot at Red Hat? by killjoe · · Score: 1

      If you recall a while ago a ton of money exchanged hands between Sun and Microsoft. Since then Sun has attempted to undermine linux by quasi-open sourcing their stuff while being very careful not to make anything they open up be compatible with the GPL. By a strange and wonderful coinky dink the two companies more likely to get hurt by the sun moves are Novell and RedHat who at the time were the number one enemies of MS. Google has taken that spot now.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    7. Re:Shot at Red Hat? by kernelpanicked · · Score: 1

      Uhhh RedHat does give it away for free. You can go to their site right now and download RHEL, RHAS, or RHWS including one month of RHN subscription for free. Yes, updates and support stop after that month if you decide not to pay, but the OS is there for the taking and update SRPMS are always available.

      --
      Ubuntu: If at first you don't succeed, blindly slap a sudo in front of it
    8. Re:Shot at Red Hat? by Diag · · Score: 1

      Sun has attempted to undermine linux by quasi-open sourcing their stuff... the two companies more likely to get hurt by the sun moves are Novell and RedHat

      I don't think Sun are attempting to undermine Linux. I believe one aim would be to increase Solaris' exposure. But more-so, I think it's to give customers another reason *not* to migrate away from UNIX (including Linux) to Windows, which would likely be run on IBM or Dell hardware with Intel processors.

      Of course I'm sure they'd prefer you run Solaris on a SPARC box, but Suse on an Sunfire Opteron box is fine, or even Windows if you must.

      From http://www.sun.com/servers/entry/x4200/features.js p ...
      Options are good: With Sun Fire X4200 servers, you can run Solaris, Linux, and Windows. And you can get support for all these operating systems from Sun. No problem. Stick with your favorite OS while deploying faster, more efficient servers that give you flexible options for the future:

      --
      Serving Suggestion: Defrost
    9. Re:Shot at Red Hat? by killjoe · · Score: 1

      If that was true they would not have crafted their licence to exclude the GPL.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    10. Re:Shot at Red Hat? by JonAnderson · · Score: 1

      You haven't got a clue so shut up. The GPL was NOT an option because the distribution contains files for which Sun does not have the rights to. This is why the CDDL is file based.

    11. Re:Shot at Red Hat? by Alioth · · Score: 1

      In which case, Sun is a bit late in the game. You can already get RHEL effectively for free by using CentOS which is built from the RHEL SRPMs. If you decide to need paid support, it would be painless to switch from CentOS to RHEL because under the covers they are the same thing.

    12. Re:Shot at Red Hat? by killjoe · · Score: 1

      So just because a tiny percentage of the files can not replicenced under the GPL none of it can?

      I will believe that when iraq joins opec.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    13. Re:Shot at Red Hat? by JonAnderson · · Score: 1

      Whatever. It's still the main reason.

    14. Re:Shot at Red Hat? by killjoe · · Score: 1

      That's what they told you and you believed them.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    15. Re:Shot at Red Hat? by JonAnderson · · Score: 1

      No. I work for Sun and was privy to the process. You can't distribute under the GPL if the resultant object(s) contains GPL and non-GPL code (i.e. encumbered code which we did not have the rights to re-license under the GPL). Basically, opensolaris would not have been legally possible under the GPL in it's current form. The CDDL is an OSI approved open source license which was created to allow Sun to release Opensolaris (file based rather than project based) and to provide the best value to it's contributors and stakeholders. The GPL isn't the be all and end all of software licensing you know.

    16. Re:Shot at Red Hat? by killjoe · · Score: 1

      "You can't distribute under the GPL if the resultant object(s) contains GPL and non-GPL code (i.e. encumbered code which we did not have the rights to re-license under the GPL)."

      Right. This means the specific files which contained code you did not have the rights to re-license would not be under the GPL. What about the rest of the code?

      "The GPL isn't the be all and end all of software licensing you know."

      Of course not. But it is a very important license and other licenses have in time made changes to accomodate the adoption of their code into GPLed projects. MPL is a perfect example of this. Somehow they were able to figure out how to make their code be usable in GPLed projects.

      The purpose of the open source movement is to give users the freedom to redistribute and modify their code. Sun by specifically excluding the GPL has chosen to deny the vast GPL community any access to their code. They have done this despite (maybe because of) the fact that for decades the first think sun users usually do is to install the GNU toolkit into their boxes.

      For decades the existance of the GNU toolset made life bearable for Solaris users and by specifically excluding the authors who write GPLed software sun has slapped them in the face. I am not saying that they didn't have the right to do that, it's their code and they can do whatever they want. I am merely saying that it's insulting and ungrateful for Sun to spit in the face of the GPL community after being the beneficiery of that community for decades.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    17. Re:Shot at Red Hat? by JonAnderson · · Score: 1

      Does the GPL permit the release and distribution of a project which has dependencies on a non-GPL object and has non-GPL objects dependent on it? For example could I take your GPL project and add my own non-GPL object to it and distribute this but keeping my object private because I don't want it under the GPL? The idea was to create an opensolaris distribution which you could download and build and which would work. If the non-GPL bits were not included it wouldn't have worked and wouldn't have been a distribution. It would just have been a lots of code which Sun spent millions licensing and developing tossed over the wall for the 'GPL community' to use as they wish for free. This is not, nor was it ever intended to be, a free present for the 'GPL community' to say Thanks for all the Support . It's for those who appreciate Solaris, want to use it, want to develop it and build a community around it. You have to remember that the vast majority of Sun's customers are businesses running enterprise software and the first thing they do is not, in fact, install the GNU toolkit. Sun's first priority is to the $ and it's stakeholders. If you think this not Redhat/HP/IBM/Novel/Suse priority list as well then you are delusional. This means that the key objective of open sourcing solaris it to add value, not so you can take the code and patch it straight into your GPL project. There is no problem re-licensing your code under the CDDL and using whatever the hell you like so why does everyone throw the toys out of the pram?. At the end of the day the CDDL is an OSI approved open source license and is just as valid as the GPL and I hardly think it's sptting in anyones face, especially the Sun loving /. 'GPL community' which has really got behind Sun in it's times of trouble.....

  17. Free as in "freedom" "beer" or "strings attached?" by mikaelhg · · Score: 4, Informative

    See the license for the new offering:

    4. Your Service Provider Use is limited to a ratio of two hundred non-Employees for each Employee (200:1) accessing the Software.

    If only someone from Sun would clarify the language, we'd know they're not pulling a MySQL on us.

  18. Everyday... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sun starts to smell more and more like Corel.

  19. Control of the integrated platform by mikaelhg · · Score: 1

    Right now, Sun has control of internet apps/coding.

    Schwartz came right out and said it in the press briefing audiocast: they believe that they will get the most value by controlling the integrated platform (excluding other providers from creating integrated offerings including Sun components, or setting the terms of entry to the field) which in their view consists of: Hardware, Solaris, J2EE server, various enterprise management products such as identity management, and (provisionally) the thin desktop. By entering the "free" market on the ancillary value software products, and keeping control of the heart of their platform (Java,) they are in their view achieving just this.

    Sun: the smarter, more mature Microsoft? Microsoft which has learned to live and let live?

    1. Re:Control of the integrated platform by gral · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Microsoft opened the Language that is C#. Java is available open as well. People are just as free to create Open Source versions of Java as they are of C#.

      They just cannot call it Java. Thus Kaffe, and gcj.

      Mono is a .Net implementation, but it does not have .Net in the name itself.

      The MS.Net platform is NOT open source. Java platform is more open source than MS.Net. You can download the source code for Java, and depending on what you want to do, have various options. Where is the source code for MS.Net platform?

      So how is that Microsoft learning to live and let live? They are BOTH in the same pot for OPENNESS.

      --
      Scott Carr
    2. Re:Control of the integrated platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Java platform is more open source than MS.Net. You can download the source code for Java, and depending on what you want to do, have various options. Where is the source code for MS.Net platform?

      Here.

    3. Re:Control of the integrated platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's sample code for students. Unlike Java, there's no wider source code access for the production version of .NET.

    4. Re:Control of the integrated platform by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      yeah it can be trivially decompiled though iirc.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  20. Goodbye Linux market share by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This might very well turn out to be a major Linux killer. Think about it... Why did Microsoft get as big as it did? "Because its products appealed to people", right, there is no question that Microsoft has scored big with their user friendlyness. But why would that affect the rest of the companies? Because in the early days it would be a little difficult to go against $manager who has seen the ease Microsoft offered and concluded "it had to be easy to setup" and "good for the company". After all; he could find his way around the product, why can't the admins ?

    Now we're in a period where it turns out that many of Microsofts products are flawed. MS fault? I don't know. Yes, its more populair to say it is but IMO design and design tools are also a big part of all this. Still; it has become a better known good that MS isn't super secure. So now we admins introduce Linux. In some companies its getting a foothold but why? Because its good? Personaly I question this, I think a bigger issue is because its become better known. News reports have been targeted at Linux, bigger IT magazines have written about Linux, Expo's have dared to present Linux and as such its now a product most people know. nice.... Does that mean everyone knows & trusts it? Hmm, no. Its still programmed by (no offense intended) long haired hippies who can do whatever they want. And in a way people are right with that assumption. Just look at what a regular IT manager would say when looking at the kernel development tree: "OK, we had 2 branches (stable (even) and unstable (odd). Now we have one, and companies are to fend themselves. OK. RH has quit with their consumer product (RH9) and their RHEL is too expensive (we could just use MS). SuSE? Thats Novell and they are just trying to catch up. Any other takes? Linspire? You have got to be kidding me!" (experienced situation).

    So now I can come up and say "Ok, I present a Unix environment (no, not *nix like) which can do all Linux can but is more reliable in the overal, backed up by a company called Sun and seems much more secure. I can also throw in a Directory Server, Instant Messenging server and a Java portal which can turn our developers completely crazy and all for the same price as Linux".

    Sorry but I think I wouldn't be chosing for Linux anymore.

    and yes; I didn't include the BSD's in my story because even though I know those are very good choices too the regular IT manager is bound to know Linux before BSD.

    And you know why I cheer this? Because I think Linux was a lot more fun when it wasn't mainstream.

    1. Re:Goodbye Linux market share by Jason+Earl · · Score: 1

      There's a huge problem with your assessment, and its the same demon (ha ha) that has been haunting the BSD folks forever. Solaris simply doesn't have the hardware support to replace Linux. In 1995 when I first started using Linux I originally was going to use FreeBSD, but my CD-Rom drive wasn't supported by FreeBSD. It was supported by Linux, and that was all she wrote. Since that time I have set up and administered hundreds of Linux servers and desktops, and have only been peripherally involved with any BSD boxes. In fact, on several occasions I have replaced BSD boxes with Linux because I was more familiar with Linux.

      Solaris might have a portal software, a J2EE server, an instant messaging server, and a directory server, but Free Software already has all of those things, and they can all be installed rather easily on any Linux box. Heck, pretty soon we'll probably be able to install Sun's newly released software on Linux (assuming the software license allows it). Part of the reason that Sun is giving this software away is that there are already Free Software equivalents of Sun's enterprise software that are gaining acceptance rapidly in the marketplace. Sun can't sell its software, and so it is giving it away in an effort to make itself relevant.

      However, when Sun tries to get you to install Solaris instead of Linux you'll quickly find out a very important fact. The supported hardware list for Solaris is *much* smaller than the supported hardware list for Linux. You can throw Linux on just about any machine and it will run just fine. Want to develop on a Linux laptop? Setting up the beast might be a little tricky, but chances are good that it will run fine. Heck, you can even purchase laptops with Linux pre-installed. Want to develop on a Solaris laptop? Good luck mate.

      Now Sun can talk about "support" and "reliability" all day. Or like the BSDs Sun can go on about its UNIX heritage and whatnot. The reality is that random Linux installs, even on crappy hardware, are generally pretty solid, and very performant. What's more, by opting for Linux you get more than just a kernel, you get a whole range of software that can be easily installed (apt-get install foo) and maintained. GNU/Linux gives you all of the tools that you need, in a pretty convenient package. Solaris can't really compete with that.

      Sure, there are some IT types that currently don't have a clue about Linux, but you can pretty much guarantee that if they don't have a clue about Linux they don't have a clue about Solaris either. The folks that are clueless about Linux are Windows folks that are looking over the UNIX fence to see if Linux might offer them something. Many have preconceived notions that basically guarantee that they come away with a bad impression. Folks in the UNIX world, on the other hand, are probably already familiar with Linux. Part of Sun's problem is that Solaris admins, faced with the prospects of being forced towards Windows by the cost of Sun hardware, have been jumping ship to Linux for years. If you are a Solaris user you almost certainly already have some Linux in your shop, and chances are good that you *like* Linux. If you still do UNIX development then chances are even better that your developers switched to Linux desktops 5 years ago. You want to know a dirty little secret. The majority of Sun's AMD servers aren't leaving Sun's warehouses with Solaris installed. The majority of them are preinstalled with copies of Red Hat Linux. If Sun can't get its own hardware customers to use Solaris what are the chances of folks throwing Solaris on random non-Sun hardware?

      Sun knows that it can't compete with Dell when it comes to commodity hardware, and so it is desperate to become more service oriented. Unfortunately Sun's own customers don't want Sun's service, just Sun's hardware. Sun is giving away more software because Red Hat already gives away a software stack that is very competitive with Sun's software stack. Sun hopes that this move will mean more of its own hardware ships with Solaris. I don't think that even the wildest dreamers at Sun expect Solaris to take off on other people's hardware.

    2. Re:Goodbye Linux market share by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Linux hardware compatability only affects the barrier to entry and trying it out, and has nothing to do with actual adoption.

      Almost nobody would throw out a Linux deployment and swap it with a Solaris deployment. There's basically no reason to do that.

      However, it's easy to envision rolling out new servers on Solaris, even in an established Linux shop.

      Suns HCL for servers is quite good, it lacks more on the client side than the server side. You can easily buy hardware from any of the top tier providers (notably Dell, HP, and IBM) and Solaris will run peachy on that hardware.

      If you're building a server from Newegg, you may run into more issues. But if you're building a server to run Solaris, then you'll be looking at their HCL anyway and buying those bits that work. And most companies don't build their own servers, it's simply rarely worth the dollars saved to not buy one with a click of the mouse from Dell.

      Sun is not Yet Another BSD, simply because BSD doesn't have a company with the organization, infrastructure, expertise and marketing budget of company like Sun behind it. BSD is a fine generic Unix services platform, Sun is a fine generic Unix services platform with huge company behind it and a robust application and higher level (identity, provisioning, communications, integration) services stack.

      Sun's new hardware is making news because it's newsworthy hardware. Dell doesn't have anything comparable yet. And all of those people that are buying Sun hardware with Linux on it are doing something that they weren't before -- buying Sun hardware.

      Some yahoo in IT who's been running Linux on his Dells and just bought a couple of Opterons from Sun probably just got an email plonked in his mailbox and maybe he noticed that he can now run Suns Directory Server (which has a pretty good reputation)..for free..on Linux. And maybe he looks at that and goes "Hmm".

      Before he wasn't giving Sun hardware, much less software, the time of day. Now he just got some Sun hardware, and the software offerings may creep in to his consciousness. Whether Sun gets the business or not, it's at least it is in the hunt moreso than before.

      That market creep is what Sun is after. Before Sun was "Solaris", "SPARC", "expensive", and discounted out of hand. Now that's not true at all, and it's opening doors all over the place. All of their moves are designed to open doors that may have been closed before.

      For example, say some institution says "We will only run Open Source Software". Before you only had Linux as an option, now you have Solaris and the entire Sun stack as an option, as well as a large support organization to back it up.

      So, yea, Sun wants the service dollar, just like Red Hat does. But it's competing for that dollar not simply by doing Red Hat 2.0, Yet Another Linux Distro, it's doing it by leveraging all of its commercially deployed, developed, and tested operating system and software service stack.

      That gives Sun a potential credibility bonus over Red Hats OSS stack in some circles. Also, Red Hat doesn't bundle (and also support) the depth of services that Suns new release does.

      Red Hat has momentum, but Sun is offering more and more, and it's getting some serious and well deserved attention.

    3. Re:Goodbye Linux market share by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The GP was talking about a situation where companies are willing to shell out a few bucks to buy a system, including the hardware. He wasn't talking about the basement kid who has a spare Pentium Pro to play Solaris on.

      Really, if Solaris wasn't intended to be a desktop replacement, why on earth does it have to support a gazillion different types of hardware? The fact that _you_ can't get your toys working on your desktop computer working doesn't mean the guys at the server room plays with these toys on the server. I'm pretty sure on the server high-end, Solaris is not less competitive than Linux in hw support.

      IFAIK, less hw support == greater reliability. For an OS geared towards the server high end, I'd choose to forgo the support of my USB gadgets for reliability.

    4. Re:Goodbye Linux market share by Seraphim_72 · · Score: 1

      Egads where to start.

      there is no question that Microsoft has scored big with their user friendlyness.
      Huh? Back in the day their user friendlines sucked compared to Apple. Why did they win? "Because no one ever got fired for buying IBM." IBM machines had the mind share, MS rode the wave.
      Now we're in a period where it turns out that many of Microsofts products are flawed. MS fault? I don't know.
      You don't know? Who the in the Hell's else fault is it?
      So now we admins introduce Linux. In some companies its getting a foothold but why? Because its good? Personaly I question this, I think a bigger issue is because its become better known.
      How about it has better performance, better security, better structure. But wait...Better known? Give me a break. You want to question this as an AC? Smarter people than you or I have made the decision to run it on their hardest hit servers.
      Hmm, no. Its still programmed by (no offense intended) long haired hippies who can do whatever they want. And in a way people are right with that assumption.
      No, they are not. The core of the developers are all paid by organizations and companies, they are far from "hippies". OSDL, Sun, HP, hell even IBM support them. Thay are NOT going to drop off the planet any time soon.
      Just look at what a regular IT manager would say when...(experienced situation).
      Great. You ran into a manager who knew squat about linux, only vendors, and made his business decisions based on that - should I laugh or cry?
      So now I can come up and say...
      Fine, great, and when all those OS trees that Solaris depends on dry up under your scorn, I am sure it will be alright.

      Go back to your bridge troll, I will have no more of you. Who ever modded this shite up should have thier heads examined. I defy one of them to dump their points and tell me why they modded this trash up.

      Sera

      --
      Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
    5. Re:Goodbye Linux market share by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > There's a huge problem with your assessment, and its the
      > same demon (ha ha) that has been haunting the BSD folks
      > forever. Solaris simply doesn't have the hardware support
      > to replace Linux.

      It's true that Solaris x86 supports less hardware than
      Linux but Solaris x86 stills supports a lot of different
      boards and cards. Way more than enough to satisfy most
      organizations.

      > Now Sun can talk about "support" and "reliability" all
      > day.

      Sun *will* talk about "support" and "reliability" all day
      because the are *important*. And the Linux community, and
      not even RH, come even close to the type of support that
      Sun offers. If you don't understand the importance and
      type of support that Sun can offer to organizations, then,
      well, you just don't understand what real support is and
      how important a role it plays in many organizations and
      companies.

      Bottom line... You can beat your drum all day long about
      the greatness of Linux but you're only preaching to the
      choir. Those whose job it is to be in the know understand
      that Solaris is better than Linux.

    6. Re:Goodbye Linux market share by Hosiah · · Score: 1
      Its still programmed by (no offense intended) long haired hippies who can do whatever they want.

      Your post makes many good points, but I still don't get this stigma. I've worked for quite a few global-scale Big Name companies, and you know who my co-workers were? About half of them were long-haired hippies. Long-haired hippies process your mortgage application, do your taxes, handle your banking transactions, and one of them shaved his head and got to be your president for 8-years. The long-haired hippies can frequently get away with that because their skills are so in demand, they can be like MASH's Corporal Klinger and wear a dress and bunny slippers and a baseball cap to work and they'll *still* be tolerated.

      Now, get with the 21st-century and start riding those pierced-up dyed-to-death Goth freaks like the rest of the long-haired hippies do.

    7. Re:Goodbye Linux market share by Jason+Earl · · Score: 1

      It's true that Solaris x86 supports less hardware than Linux but Solaris x86 stills supports a lot of different boards and cards. Way more than enough to satisfy most organizations.

      Yes, and the BSDs support less hardware too, and for whatever reason that leads lots and lots of people to choose Linux, despite the advantages of the BSDs. The piece that the Solaris advocates miss is that Free Software (which now includes OpenSolaris) projects often sneak in through the back door on sub-par hardware. It's often not a question of purchasing new hardware (at first), but rather a question of repurposing old hardware. OpenSolaris simply can't compete at that.

      OpenSolaris definitely can't compete when it comes to development laptops, and that's probably even more important. Most devs have a laptop these days, and if they are running an UNIX-alike on that laptop chances are good that it is Linux and not Solaris.

      Sun *will* talk about "support" and "reliability" all day because the are *important*. And the Linux community, and not even RH, come even close to the type of support that Sun offers. If you don't understand the importance and type of support that Sun can offer to organizations, then, well, you just don't understand what real support is and how important a role it plays in many organizations and companies.

      Bottom line... You can beat your drum all day long about the greatness of Linux but you're only preaching to the choir. Those whose job it is to be in the know understand that Solaris is better than Linux.

      If what Sun is offering with OpenSolaris is so great then why do Sun's own hardware customers prefer to purchase their software support from Red Hat? That's the real question. Sure, Sun is selling a lot of x86-64 boxes, but over half of them choose to load Red Hat Linux. If Sun can't get the OpenSolaris message out to its own hardware customers, what makes you think that it is going to be successful with the masses of customers that don't choose Sun hardware? Clearly either customers don't believe that Sun's software is really all that great, or Sun has the worst marketing division the world has ever known.

    8. Re:Goodbye Linux market share by Jason+Earl · · Score: 1

      Linux hardware compatability only affects the barrier to entry and trying it out, and has nothing to do with actual adoption.

      Yes, and most people test drive Free Software before they put it into production. That's precisely my point. The BSDs, despite their huge early lead over Linux, and their extremely corp-friendly licensing, lost out to Linux because Linus was far more practical about supporting crappy hardware. People could "try out" Linux on ridiculous hardware, while the BSDs only ran on serious hardware.

      Almost nobody would throw out a Linux deployment and swap it with a Solaris deployment. There's basically no reason to do that.

      Precisely. This is why Sun should be trying to get early adopters and folks that are "testing driving" Free Software. Unfortunately, unless you are purchasing hardware specifically for OpenSolaris you probably won't get it to run. Linux will probably run on the same hardware, however. Now, once you get everything up and running on Linux and you've played around with it and are starting to feel comfortable are you going to give Solaris a whack. Probably not.

      However, it's easy to envision rolling out new servers on Solaris, even in an established Linux shop.

      Why? So you can support two different operating systems? Why not just roll out more Linux servers? OpenSolaris has very little to offer someone that has already made the leap to Linux. OpenSolaris is definitely useful for keeping existing Sun customers from jumping to Linux, but that probably doesn't help Sun's bottom line much. With Sun's current overhead it can't afford to become just another Red Hat.

      Suns HCL for servers is quite good, it lacks more on the client side than the server side. You can easily buy hardware from any of the top tier providers (notably Dell, HP, and IBM) and Solaris will run peachy on that hardware.

      Unfortunately for Sun it's Red Hat Linux and not OpenSolaris that's in the drop down on these companies website.

      If you're building a server from Newegg, you may run into more issues. But if you're building a server to run Solaris, then you'll be looking at their HCL anyway and buying those bits that work. And most companies don't build their own servers, it's simply rarely worth the dollars saved to not buy one with a click of the mouse from Dell.

      Once again. This allows folks that are already Solaris fans to purchase an inexpensive Solaris machine. It doesn't help Sun attract new customers though.

      Sun is not Yet Another BSD, simply because BSD doesn't have a company with the organization, infrastructure, expertise and marketing budget of company like Sun behind it. BSD is a fine generic Unix services platform, Sun is a fine generic Unix services platform with huge company behind it and a robust application and higher level (identity, provisioning, communications, integration) services stack.

      The BSDs had a lot more organization than Linux did when Linux was first created, but Linux was far more likely to at least try and support the wacky hardware that people actually had. Besides, while Sun may be trying to sell OpenSolaris, if you talk to IBM, HP, or Dell, or Novell about a UNIX-like OS, then Linux is going to come up, not OpenSolaris. At this point Sun has to do better than have a bigger marketing engine than the BSDs. Sun has to have a bigger and better marketing engine than all of the folks promoting Linux. Heck, more than half of Sun's own x86-64 servers get shipped with Red Hat Linux. That should tell you something about the efficacy of Sun's OpenSolaris marketing machine.

      Sun's new hardware is making news because it's newsworthy hardware. Dell doesn't have anything comparable yet. And all of those people that are buying Sun hardware with Linux on it are doing something that they

  21. Java's Source Code is Downloadable by jonathanbearak · · Score: 4, Informative

    Java's source code is available for free. See http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/source_license.html .

    "I want some software (security stuff) to stay closed-source forever"

    The source isn't closed. It's not Free Software, but you can see it. I guess now this means you shouldn't use Java, seeing as all those evil hackers are gonna be rummaging through it.

    And if you hadn't recalled, there already was a Java runtime from Microsoft. Wasn't compatible with Sun's Java. Doesn't exist anymore. Trademarks are sweet.

    1. Re:Java's Source Code is Downloadable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not only can you see it, but you can build it, tweak it, and even deploy it within your company. You simply can't distribute it.

      This gives most of the freedoms of OSS, but keeps the core stable and consistent within the hand of Sun.

      I'm not sure if you can distribute patches freely, however (BSD does, but they're different and have a relationship with Sun already).

      Save for the most technical pedant, Java is "Free enough".

    2. Re:Java's Source Code is Downloadable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uhhh... that's the JDK source, not the the JRE source.

    3. Re:Java's Source Code is Downloadable by NMikkila · · Score: 1

      Even better since the JDK source includes the JRE source.

    4. Re:Java's Source Code is Downloadable by orasio · · Score: 1

      In any case, Java is Open Enough.
      It's not free enough, because it only grants you freedom 0 and freedom 1, the freedom to use it, and to see how it works and improve it.

      It still takes away from the user the freedom to help other by sharing the software, and the freedo to share his improvements to the software with a community.
      Even though there's the Java community whatever, that takes some pointers by consumers, it's a limited community in its power.

      For people who care about "openness", Java is Open Enough. It is great at interoperability, and you can even look at its sourcecode, and licenses are very bussiness friendly.

      For people who care about freedom in software, no, Java is not Free Enough.
      A short description of freedom in software, from the POV of the user: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

  22. good, but I have doubt by snitmo · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I respect and appreciate Sun's commitment to open source community. However, as a software engineer, I cannot find a reason to devote my time to extend old software created by Sun. For example, within the Java Enterprise System, http://www.sun.com/software/javaenterprisesystem/c ompare.xml I do not find a product which is overwhelmingly exciting to me. When there are hundreds of cutting-edge, fast-developing open source projects to work on out there, I wonder how actively developers will contribute to Sun's products. I would like to know what others think. Do you see exciting things in what Sun has opened up?

    Also, it's not clear to me what they have actually opened up. They opened Solaris, JES, etc., fine. What else? Compilers? Drivers? SunRay? Is there a list somewhere?

    Finally can somebody decipher their license, CDDL? http://www.crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3:mss:9125 :200412:dmcacncfamieofeochbn
    Let's say I take Sun's source code, add some modification and nice packaging, etc., may I sell it to customers?

    1. Re:good, but I have doubt by fleung · · Score: 1

      To let all the developer help Sun to discover the software bug and testing can saves Sun lots of cost. So, it would not like M$ to release so buggy software to the public and asking you for money. Of course, in open source community, the user and the developer drives the direction, Sun is risky and its brand name may then be disappeared in the IT industry

    2. Re:good, but I have doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's say I take Sun's source code, add some modification and nice packaging, etc., may I sell it to customers?

      Yes. Any changes you make to CDDL licensed files need to be released to the community.

      Say you download program X from Sun licensed under CDDL and it's made up of files a.c, b.c, and c.c.

      You create private.c, change b.c to call your function in private.c, compile it all up into prog.exe.

      You can sell prog.exe, you must give b.c back to the community, and you can keep private.c under lock and key.

      It's simply MPL under a different name.

      If it were BSD, you wouldn't have to give back b.c.

      If it were GPL, you would have to give both b.c and private.c to the community (make it available).

    3. Re:good, but I have doubt by snitmo · · Score: 1

      Thank you, very good info. Somebody please mod parent up "Informative"!

  23. I Remember The Day by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Funny
    Ah I remember the day so well, that day when Sun opened up its Enterprise Software. The sun was a little brighter, the car radio a little more in tune. I eagerly sent off my request for the source, barely able to restrain myself as I thought of personally witnessing the glory of that code.

    The package came, lovely yellow with the bubbly inside. "A CD-ROM!" I said aloud. "No better, I bet it's a DVD-ROM". I opened it up, popping layers of bubbles to find... a double-sided double-density 3 1/2 floppy. Confusion filled my mind as I pulled out my old 400mhz Pentium notebook.

    I ran the included program, ENTSRC.EXE and up popped a window:

    "Are you ready?"

    "Yes!" I cried, hitting the Y key with orgasmic fervor.

    "Are you truly ready for this?"

    "Ohhhhh yessssss!" I moaned, banging the key again.

    "Please read this EULA. Do you agree never to do anything nasty to Sun, never call it names, or mock Larry Ellison? Do you vow to besmirch .Net and Mono? Will you feed your cat only high-protein foods, and make love to your wife three times a week?"

    "Anything!" I shouted, clicking Y one last time. And up it popped.

    window.open("http://java.sun.com");
    alert("BWAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHA!);
    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    1. Re:I Remember The Day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's an EULA that gets my leg over three times a week? Where!? I'll sign now..

    2. Re:I Remember The Day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      There's an EULA that gets my leg over three times a week? Where!? I'll sign now..

      Well, sure... But have you seen his wife?!

  24. call a spade a spade by CDPatten · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There are companies that truly believe in open source and its philosophy and there are companies like sun. This is a hail-marry effort to stop their impending demise. Their market share has been dwindling for years and it's starting to tank even more, especially with the linux options. Let me make a prediction now, one day we will see OSX going open source when their market share drops below a percentage point. And it won't be because Apple has seen the light either...

    I'm not trolling, I just think we should throw our praise behind companies that TRULY believe in the philosophy not just using it to try and prevent their demise.

    1. Re:call a spade a spade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a hail-marry

      Can you post a definition of a hail "marry"?

    2. Re:call a spade a spade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    3. Re:call a spade a spade by adrianmonk · · Score: 4, Insightful
      There are companies that truly believe in open source and its philosophy and there are companies like sun. This is a hail-marry effort to stop their impending demise. Their market share has been dwindling for years and it's starting to tank even more, especially with the linux options

      I can see where you're coming from, and honestly, it feels a bit like that to me as well. Sun didn't make their fortune on open source (although they have been involved with open software and open standards for quite some time), so I suspect the attitude towards it is mixed.

      In fact, I recently went to an OpenSolaris users' group meeting at my local Sun facility, and one of the Sun people did mention that open sourcing Solaris was kind of a hard sell with the management, but that the "a rising tide benefits us all" argument did eventually win out. So, are they true believers? Undoubtedly, many Sun employees are, and surely some are skeptical. But even if 100% of them aren't behind it, you have to give them credit for being willing to try new things.

      Now, on to the question of whether this is a Hail Mary. My own opinion is that if it were just this one thing in isolation, that wouldn't be a good sign. But, over the last year, Sun has done lots of things that kick ass. Solaris 10 kicks ass. ZFS, which they've just released, kicks ass[1]. (As the ZFS slides say, "ZFS Objective: End the Suffering", and that refers to the tedium of storage management on ALL platforms.) Sun is already working on projects and starting new projects to address shortcomings with Solaris on the desktop. Though they of course support gcc, the newest version of their own proprietary compiler (and dev environment), Sun Studio 11, is now free as in beer. And it's available for both Solaris and Linux, and pretty clearly generates better code on SPARC and is pretty competitive on x86.

      Some of their new Opteron hardware is quite cool and cost competitive with similar Dell systems[2]. And they also have their 8-core, 4-simultaneous-hardware-thread Niagara chips.

      The point is, like in years past, it can once again be said that Sun is doing cool stuff. So if you want to go with the football analogies, it could be a Hail Mary, or it could be that halftime has just ended, Sun has just studied the films to see what they need to adjust, and they're back on the field and ready to make something happen.

      [1] Check out the (PDF) slides about it, or either of the two demos, or some of the other documentation.

      [2] In fact, compare the cheapest 1U Dell server with the cheapest 1U Sun server. The Dell has a Celeron with 256KB cache in a server (!!!), and the Sun has an Opteron with 1MB cache. And the Sun is $745, whereas the Dell is $999. The only negative with the Sun is that it has no disk, but that option is $150, leaving it at $895, still over $100 cheaper than the Dell. Oh yeah, and the Sun hardware is qualified to run RHEL, SUSE Linux, Solaris 10, or Windows.

    4. Re:call a spade a spade by fbg111 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are companies that truly believe in open source and its philosophy and there are companies like sun. This is a hail-marry effort to stop their impending demise.

      Why are so many /.'ers anti-Sun? It's not like Sun is a convicted monopoly that uses ruthless and illegal tactics to foist shitty products on the world. Their products may be expensive (or were), but they're also really good. In fact, Sun is one of several fronts against Microsoft, which include Linux, OSS, BSD, IBM, maybe HP, maybe Apple, and others. Why do we see OpenSolaris as Sun attempting pressure Red Hat and not Microsoft??? Windows gained ground against Unix b/c Unix was expensive, until Linux with its massive developer community matured enough to offer a good, free (and Free) alternative. Now OpenSolaris is offering another similar alternative, partly to Linux, but more cosmically important, to Windows. Yet /. is nevertheless filled with people castigating Sun, and who have lost sight of the forest for the trees. Priorities, people.

      --
      Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams
    5. Re:call a spade a spade by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, did it ever cross your mind that he isn't anti-MS, and doesn't have your agenda to dethrone MS? Not to mention, Sun and Apple have both practiced monopolistic strategies, they just failed miserably.

      Oh ya, as far as bundling, your beloved apple "bundles" more then MS (Safari, QuickTime, iMail, iPhoto, iVideo, etc. etc.). The difference is they just have a puny market share, but its not some higher principled stance with greater morals. They have the same exact business practices as MS with one exception... Apple has a monopoly on the hardware that runs their OS and MS doesn't do that.

    6. Re:call a spade a spade by justins · · Score: 1
      There are companies that truly believe in open source and its philosophy and there are companies like sun.

      Nonsense. Sun was sponsoring open-source projects (Xemacs, TCL, etc.) well before most "open source" companies even existed. It's not that they don't "truly believe in open source."

      The problem is that a lot of open source fanboys want to view it as an all-or-nothing proposition. If they don't get their way all the time, regardless of the business realities, they whine like little babies.
      --
      Now before I get modded down, I be to remind whoever might read this that what I am saying is FACT. - bogaboga
    7. Re:call a spade a spade by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      please. companies "believe" in whatever makes them money.

  25. Malapropos SUN slogans.. a rerun by rkaa · · Score: 1

    For the enjoyment of new readers:
    http://www.bbspot.com/News/2001/04/network.html

  26. Slashdot Opens Up Duplication Software by psykocrime · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    "Stating that "duplicate stories are the future" of the software industry, Slashdot's President and COO Rob Malda announced that Slashdot will be opening its duplication software in a manner similar to Solaris 10. Slashdot is opening up the Slashdot Duplication System, Slashdot N+1 Dupe Management software, and Slashdot duplication tools, etc. - practically everything except News- hoping to lure more slashdotters and chief executive officers worldwide to use and deploy its duplication software."

    --
    // TODO: Insert Cool Sig
  27. Yes, yes there is a list by PCM2 · · Score: 2, Informative
    Also, it's not clear to me what they have actually opened up. They opened Solaris, JES, etc., fine. What else? Compilers? Drivers? SunRay? Is there a list somewhere?
    Yes, if you read the official press release they give a list. Sun Ray, yes. Compilers are unclear -- but I suspect that by "tools" they mean IDEs and the like and not compilers.

    As far as "opening up," though, as of today Sun has opened nothing new, as far as I can tell. It is just "reaffirming its commitment to open source this software," to quote the press release.

    --
    Breakfast served all day!
  28. This sucks by stavromueller · · Score: 0

    Aw shucks... now I can't complain about how I submitted 2 dozen or so detailed bug reports when Java Studio Creator was in beta and they gave me nothing, not even a discount on its release, in return. :P

    This is great new otherwise, first thing I did when I read about this was download Studio Creator and Studio Enterprise. :)

    --
    I kill harmless processes for sport
  29. Re:Free as in "freedom" "beer" or "strings attache by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 1

    Ah ha, the Google/Yahoo exception!

  30. LOL M$ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just like native methods calls aren't compatible either. Sun is doing the same God-damned thing with JNI that they sued Microsoft for doing. So step off.

  31. Trademarks are Sweet? by abscondment · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Here's a great example of some "sweet" trademarkage: the color brown

    D'oh.

  32. Let's link to Sun's download site by assantisz · · Score: 1
    Here is a complete list of what's included and will be included in the future: download here.

    I hope some day Sun Cluster and Sun Management Center will be included (you pay through the nose for those two products).

    1. Re:Let's link to Sun's download site by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But they are there! - "Java Availability Suite" is SunCluster+Agents, and "N1 Provisioning" includes Sun Management Centre.

      I'm downloading SunCluster as I type...

  33. good for Sun and Java by recharged95 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Just download the tiger release at java.net. OK, so it's under the JRL license, but you can at least see the source and debug it.

    This makes some sense and kudos for Sun. Basically there needs to be a gateway for core modules, just like the linux kernel, but instead the JDK depends on an organization to formally keep it stable vs a community (which can be too democratic). Since Java is free to develop this is a good balance for app developers as well as most core developers.

    If you look at it more, the JCP process compliments this strategy well.

    EJB3.0 will give everything a run for the money.

  34. Opensolaris: Same old HCL game with 32bit sparcs by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    If it really was open as it was meant to be, they'd not play the same game with hardware and just "lose" code for the 32bit side as well as the hardware that those machines used. Sure you arent going to have an ss2 running Sol10, but I bet you could have an SS10, an SS5/170 (DVMA bug could be fixed, the *right* way), or a quad Ross 200(which could make a run for the minimally supported Ultra2) run those with some decent framebuffers and a lot of other useful hardware.

    At least other companies gave a chance to their old boxes - AIX 5L with MCA dropped only after 5.1(Still well supported), enough to go do some stuff with vacpp/gcc. Sun however, decides to play the HCL + documentation game.

    Even if the licensing is friendly, this is from the company that doesnt mind dropping hardware support in 2 versions.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  35. Sun rising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Sun is the most significant Unix company in existence, which no one who knows anything about the Unix market and it's history can deny. What true Unix company still exists and is as true to Unix more than Sun? None. IBM, HP, DEC, SCO, SGI, etc. all lost to Sun during the dot com years. HP has HPUX on life support, no new innovation and no will left to survive. IBM talks up Linux because AIX is breathing its last breath. The rest are not even worth mentioning because they are either completely dead or will be any minute. How did things get to this point? Because Unix and the hardware designed to run Unix has been Sun's primary focus for which it has continued to develop, improve and campaign for relentlessly.

    I am perplexed by the number of people posting FUD about Sun on slashdot. Who by their comments, clearly know nothing of Sun's financial situation or products. Sun is not going away anytime soon, even if they didn't sell a single new support contract or single new hardware device ever again, they would continue to exist. But that's just it, Sun has not given up (unlike its rivals), it is raising the bar and delivering on commitments.

    I am getting really excited about the latest moves by Sun. Afterall, I only got involved with Linux because I couldn't afford to run a Solaris box for personal use. Do you think Linus would have ever been inspired to start working on Linux if he was able to run Solaris for free and it ran on his PC? I think not. And yes, much has changed since 1991 and Linux has certainly grown up. But what many fail to see is that Solaris has not been standing still. The gap certainly started closing rapidly around 2003 with the release of the 2.6 kernel. However, with Solaris 10, Sun leaped even further ahead. And I'm not talking about speed, reliability and scalability improvements, which it certainly had much of. Solaris 10 has features like DTrace, predictive self-healing, containers/zones, ZFS and more. These are completely new technologies. And unlike Linux, Sun's code comes out solid from the day it is released. If you're a developer, I urge you to go look at the source code and compare it to the typical Open Source project's code. I think you will see that the difference is like comparing a donkey to stallion.

    Hopefully these words are not interpreted as being anti-Linux. I have dedicated a huge portion of my life during the last decade to Linux, its development and support. I feel ashamed to be part of a community that sees anything different as the enemy or a threat. The Linux community should not feel threatened by Sun or anyone else for that matter. The commercial entities that feed off our community however (IBM, HP, Red Hat, Novell, etc.) should be afraid, very afraid...

    1. Re:Sun rising by amigascne · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I agree that Sun is the only truly relevant/credible Unix company left.

      Also, I found that Nexenta GNU/OpenSolaris was an easy way to quickly get my hands on to a recent OpenSolaris build without too much commitment (LiveCD). I'd recommend it to anyone who is curious about OpenSolaris but unwilling or unable to install it on their machine. Once it is out of alpha, I will almost certainly replace my FreeBSD box with Nexenta.

      http://www.nexenta.org/
    2. Re:Sun rising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ditto. Sun is truly rising.

    3. Re:Sun rising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A golf-clap for you sir. The most rational comment I've read on this thread.

    4. Re:Sun rising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's clear that you've never used AIX, or even had to perform basic administration on an AIX server. AIX completely blows away all the other unix implementations on the market. Solaris is great and all, but they didnt even have a workable logical volume manager until just recently. AIX is probably the most stable, and most advanced UNIX system on the market. it's HARDLY on it's last breath. I think Ibm is only pushing linux because it's the cool thing to do in the industry. if they don't, then they'll be left to play in the corner by themselves.

      solaris doesn't touch AIX in performance, scalability or serviceability at an operating system level. Linux doesn't even touch solaris (and i'm a huge linux fan, been using it for about 12 years now).

      Try learning a little about the stuff you bash before posting a bunch of nonsense.

    5. Re:Sun rising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Care to back up your claims with facts? You claim that AIX is superior to Solaris, but provide no facts to back this up. In what ways does AIX completely blow away all other unix implementations? In what ways is AIX's "performance, scalability and serviceability" superior to Solaris? The grandparent listed specific advanced technologies that Sun has released recently, but all you did was present opinions with no facts to back them up.

    6. Re:Sun rising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I agree with you, Sir, and I think you have made valid points refuting the parent poster... I still think he's right. AIX isn't being promoted by IBM in the way that (Open)Solaris is being promoted by Sun.
      I'm sure IBM will continue to sell AIX, but I think its market share will dwindle the same way their mainframe OS sales will dwindle. They'll continue to sell the hardware they're so good at building and selling, but customers will be running Linux more and more often on that hardware.
      Solaris and Linux have the mindshare among up-and-coming geeks, whereas AIX (and Tru64 and VMS, in my work) are for the old-school die-hards.

    7. Re:Sun rising by CRiMSON · · Score: 1

      Cause he has no facts. While AIX is alright, it's not the sun/linux killer this guy describes.

      AIX has some hair brained ideas about sysadmining, and god help you if you attempt to use the tools they give you to admin the box.

      --
      oogly boogly!
    8. Re:Sun rising by hasst · · Score: 1

      You spoke like a true marketing man! Amen brother! I think a glance at the stock for the previous 10 years for IBM, Oracle, HP, SUN, SGI will show you the pattern -> it goes down to China. Wake up. Get a cold shower. SUN made almost all the bad moves in the book the last few years. They are playing they last cards now and if there was a bet I'd put my money on "The DEC and now SGI" spot for SUN. Look at the bright side of the SUN, Oracle and IBM are making money by _smartly_ using SUN's inventions. They're in for The Eclipse, in a few years the only picture left will be an ear-to-ear smiling Ballmer on their webpage.

    9. Re:Sun rising by sethstorm · · Score: 1

      That, and you can add the part that they support hardware a lot longer, and provide a "final release" for the older machines to at least have something open.

      --
      Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  36. Sun Rays! by Kevin+Burtch · · Score: 2, Insightful


    It's a good thing.

    They've finally realized that they are a hardware company, and the software is just the icing that drives the hardware sales.
    Their hardware really is phenomenal, especially from the V880 on up (anything that can handle hot-swapping CPUs is damned impressive!).

    What I'm personally excited about is the opening of Sun Ray Server Software... the software is useless without the hardware, so charging extra for it was counter-productive.
    The fact that it's being opened means support on current Linux distros will improve quickly (currently, you're stuck with 2.4 kernels or insane amounts of botching and pasting). People will be able to put together a hotrod Linux box and pick up dozens of Sun Rays for a super-cheap bunch of desktops.
    Sun may not make licensing fees from the people who can't afford it, but they'll sell more hardware. This has a cascade effect, considering the word of mouth advertizing that will come from all of the people seeing these devices and asking "what's that?" followed by "oh, we could use something like that too!".
    http://sun-rays.org/ is a decent discussion forum for Sun Rays - in case anyone is interested.

    --
    - Preferences: Solaris 10 (servers), Ubuntu (desktops), Solaris 11 (personal servers) -
  37. Re:Opensolaris: Same old HCL game with 32bit sparc by adrianmonk · · Score: 1
    If it really was open as it was meant to be, they'd not play the same game with hardware and just "lose" code for the 32bit side as well as the hardware that those machines used. Sure you arent going to have an ss2 running Sol10, but I bet you could have an SS10, an SS5/170 (DVMA bug could be fixed, the *right* way), or a quad Ross 200(which could make a run for the minimally supported Ultra2) run those with some decent framebuffers and a lot of other useful hardware.
    ...
    Even if the licensing is friendly, this is from the company that doesnt mind dropping hardware support in 2 versions.

    Dropping support after two versions? If I recall correctly, a SPARCstation 10 can run SunOS 4.1.3, SunOS 4.1.3_U1, SunOS 4.1.4, Solaris 2.3, 2.4, 2.5, 2.5.1, 2.6, 7, 8, and 9. It may very well also be able to run Solaris 2.0 through 2.2, since it was the new hotness right around the time they were releasing Solaris 2. So that's 11 versions it can run for sure, and 3 others it's quite likely to be able to run.

    As for the SPARCstation 20, the support is not as wide, but it can run SunOS 4.1.4 and I'm fairly sure 4.1.3_U1 as well. It may require Solaris 2.5 or newer, and possibly hardware update versions of 2.5 (especially for those 200 MHz Ross CPU modules) but it is also supported all the way from 2.5 up through 2.5.1, 2.6, 7, 8, and up to 9. So, that's 6 or 7 versions.

    The story for the SPARCstation 5 is similar. I never tried the 170 MHz version, but I had 110 MHz version on my desk 8 years ago running Solaris 2.5, and it's supported all the way up through Solaris 9 as well. I'm fairly sure some Sparc 5 systems can run SunOS 4.1.4, although it's been so long I can't recall.

    So yeah, none of these systems can run Solaris 10, but they are all also machines that were introduced over 10 years ago. It would be nice if Sun had released the source for versions older than Solaris 10, but it seems to have been a fairly big hassle to go over the lineage of all that code and ensure they really had rights to open source 100% of what they did, so I don't blame them for only wanting to go through that process on a single version.

  38. Re:Opensolaris: Same old HCL game with 32bit sparc by Temkin · · Score: 1

    Even if the licensing is friendly, this is from the company that doesnt mind dropping hardware support in 2 versions.



    Huh? The last 32-bit chassis, the SS5 & SS20 shipped in 1995. That's 10 years ago. Solaris 2.4, 2.5, 2.5.1, 2.6, 7, 8, and 9 thru the latest 9u7 run on them just fine. Solaris isn't NetBSD. They don't carry support forward for everything. The decision about when to drop the SS5 was probably made back in 1996, when the Ultra's started shipping in numbers. They set a roadmap, and stuck to it.

    When did the Solaris 10 branch fork? I'll bet it was back in 2001. Back then Sun execs were probably still thinking they were going to see a recovery in a quaretr or so, and "OpenSolaris" wasn't a priority. So I'm guessing you're complaining about decisions that were made long ago, under much different circumstances.

    Bite the bullet, and buy a newer pizza box. There's thousands of Ultra 1's floating around out there for cheap. And consider this... Now that Solaris 10 is open source, they can never do this to you again.

    Temkin

  39. The ZX was cancelled in HCL, not the the ss's by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    My mistake for not referring to the ZX directly with the 2 version complete drop. In 6 it was supported, 7 if you could patch it, and removed far enough to not support that method in version 8. Otherwise, though the point that Sun does this kind of thing is still valid.

    Dropping support after two versions?
    The Sun ZX is what I referred to here as being dropped in two versions, my mistake. As for the workstations, dropping them before opensolaris is a bad move even if they are 10 years+ old.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
    1. Re:The ZX was cancelled in HCL, not the the ss's by adrianmonk · · Score: 1
      The Sun ZX is what I referred to here as being dropped in two versions, my mistake.

      We couldn't afford too many 24-bit video cards back in the sun4m days, but from what I could dig up on the net, it would appear that the ZX frambuffer was first supported in a hardware update to release 2.3. And support lasted from then until 2.6. So that's 2.3, 2.4, 2.5, 2.5.1, and 2.6 that officially supported it. That's 5 versions, not 2.

  40. Re:Opensolaris: Same old HCL game with 32bit sparc by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    Bite the bullet, and buy a newer pizza box. There's thousands of Ultra 1's floating around out there for cheap. And consider this... Now that Solaris 10 is open source, they can never do this to you again.

    Unlike the SS5/170's bug which is well known, but needs documentation/source to fix, the Ultra 1's bug is hardware based (unreliable in 64bit mode due to a RED_STATE bug, that takes any real advantage from the Ultra1 that it had). With that bug in mind, it's more or less a turbo'd SS5/170 due to even Solaris not using the 64bit side.

    NetBSD(as of 1.5), Linux(Unless you have the docs or a good idea of how to avoid the bug), OpenSolaris(Deliberately cut from the source that Ultras only 2-3 years older can use) wont run on the SS5/170, which really leaves old Solaris versions (if you can get them) or OpenBSD (the only solution, and even then the ZX is neutered due to lack of documentation).

    Once you see a 170 against an Ultra1 in the practical configuration, you'll see that the 170 makes for just being a smaller Ultra1. The higher up in configuration (Ross) SS10's and SS20's would be even faster. Only a full 64bit Ultra2 (with the later board revision) would be above the Sparcstations.

    As for the fork, if they could bring code from the Ultra out, there's no real reason they couldnt have brought enough code and binaries out to give 32bit one last version to build onto.

    I've bit the bullet enough(SS5/170, SS10, Ultra2) not to go for deliberately buggy or crippled SPARC hardware.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  41. So SuSe Linux is not open either??? ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Using your logic SuSe Linux not open source enough either:

    Have a look as the SuSe Linux license agreement, it contains the same restrictions:
    http://www.novell.com/licensing/eula/sles_9.pdf

  42. Oh REALLY? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you actually want to know the answer, most of the flak Sun gets seems to be because they intentionally chose an open source license that's not compatible with the GPL.

    I guess then Firefox and Apache aren't open enough for you either. The MPL and Apache license are both incompatible with GPL:

    Here is a definition of open source:
    http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php

    and Solaris is open source as it has an approved open source license (CDDL):
    1) http://www.opensource.org/licenses/cddl1.php

    Some folks are concerned that CDDL it is not GPL compatible. The FSF defines CDDL as a FREE license, but incompatible with GPL.
    2) http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license-list.html#GP LIncompatibleLice...

    Other licences defined as FREE, but also incompatible with GPL (see above reference) include:
    Apache License, Version 1.0
    Apache License, Version 1.1
    Apache Software License, version 2.0
    Mozilla Public License (MPL)
    IBM Public License, Version 1.0
    Eclipse Public License Version 1.0
    PHP License, Version 3.0

    So it appears that CDDL is open source (see 1)
    and free as in speech (see 2)
    and Solaris is also free as in beer

    1. Re:Oh REALLY? by Peter+La+Casse · · Score: 1
      If you actually want to know the answer, most of the flak Sun gets seems to be because they intentionally chose an open source license that's not compatible with the GPL.

      I guess then Firefox and Apache aren't open enough for you either.

      I didn't say the CDDL "wasn't open enough", or even "wasn't open". In fact, I specifically stated, in the portion of my post that you quoted, that the CDDL is an open source license. I was explaining why other people fault Sun for taking active steps to reduce compatibility with other Open Source projects.

      Firefox is in the process of being triple-licensed MPL/GPL/LGPL. See the relicensing FAQ for more information.

      The Apache License is currently not GPL-compatible, but there are two factors that prevent a backlash against the Apache Foundation similar to the backlash against Sun. First, Apache is the clear industry leader in its niche, so those looking for code exchange are interested in conforming to them. This is not the case with Sun; OpenSolaris is the new kid on the block, as far as open source OSes go, and there are plenty of existing open source OSes that would love to exchange code with OpenSolaris. Second, people who like the GPL tend to think that the Apache license is actually superior, and I believe that one of the goals of the GPL v3 process is to achieve compatibility with the Apache License. So, incompatibility between GPL and Apache License projects will probably not last forever (for those GPL projects that use the "or later" clause of the license.)

      A situation that does involve a similar backlash is the one that exists between the BSD license, from the perspective of the BSDs, and the GPL. Many BSD developers do not add GPL code to their projects in order to maintain license purity (which is not at all objectionable.) They give the GPL flak because if it were published under their preferred license, they could include GPL code in their projects without changing their own licenses, which would be useful to them.

    2. Re:Oh REALLY? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and there are plenty of existing open source OSes that would love to exchange code with OpenSolaris

      And are...
      DTrace is being ported to FreeBSD.

      Besides there is plenty of BSD licensed code in Solaris, just browse the source.
      There is also plenty of Solaris code under various licenses if you took the trouble to download the Solaris code. Kind of tricky to license code written by other parties as GPL. So there isn't really any way to satisfy you and your perceived "backlash".

  43. Compilers included! by Mike+Gleason · · Score: 1
    Yes, the compilers are included! This is great news, indeed. From the press release:

    • Included at no cost in the new Solaris Enterprise System are:

    • The award winning and open sourced Solaris 10 OS, with the recently announced PostgreSQL database;
    • The entire Sun Java Enterprise System infrastructure software platform, including the Sun Java Identity Management Suite, Sun Java Integration Suite, Sun Java Communications Suite, Sun Java Application Platform Suite, Sun Java Availability Suite and Sun Java Web Infrastructure Suite;
    • The N1 Management Software including the Sun N1 System Manager, the Sun N1 Service Provisioning System, the Sun N1 Grid Engine;
    • All tools for C, C++ and Java development, including Sun Studio 11, Sun Java Studio Enterprise 8 and Sun Java Studio Creator;
    • SunRay ultra-thin client software;
    • Sun Secure Global Desktop Software.

    I'm downloading Sun Studio 11 for Solaris, x86, and Linux right now.

    1. Re:Compilers included! by Mike+Gleason · · Score: 1

      Oy. I "bulleted" one too many lines (the first one from the press release), and I meant to say "Solaris/sparc, Solaris/x86, and Linux." Forgive me, it's late.

  44. Apache Harmony by vhogemann · · Score: 1

    Actually I think that's a pretty good move for the OpenSource community.

    This way there still be a need for an OpenSource JVM, and enought interest behind the Apache Harmony project to keep it moving.

    Think about it, there is already lots of free JVMs, like GNU GCJ/Classpath, Kaffe, SuperWabba, etc... They're just not 1.4 compilant yet. But they're usefull for lots of tasks, and they're free.

    If Sun releases Java under an OpenSource licence, it will kill the Harmony Project. And as a java web developer I'm very exited about Apache Harmony. Think about it, Apache has the Struts framework, TomCat servlet container, Geronimo application server, and will have the JVM powering them... the possibilities for performance tunning, and optimization are endless!

    --
    ---- You know how some doctors have the Messiah complex - they need to save the world? You've got the "Rubik's" complex
  45. Fatal exception by gnud · · Score: 1

    When I try to download I get greeted by a fatal exception :(

    1. Re:Fatal exception by gnud · · Score: 2, Informative

      When I try to download I get greeted by a fatal exception :(
      And based on the download link to Sun studio, I found that the URL parameter "LMArea=nsx" was missing from the links to Java studio Creator and Enterprise. Add that to the end of the query string, and you will be fine.

  46. Larry vs Scott by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
    "Do you agree never to do anything nasty to Sun, never call it names, or mock Larry Ellison?"

    Mocking Larry Ellison is OK by me, but Sun is run by Scott McNealy.

  47. Re:Opensolaris: Same old HCL game with 32bit sparc by Temkin · · Score: 1

    Unlike the SS5/170's bug which is well known, but needs documentation/source to fix, the Ultra 1's bug is hardware based (unreliable in 64bit mode due to a RED_STATE bug, that takes any real advantage from the Ultra1 that it had). With that bug in mind, it's more or less a turbo'd SS5/170 due to even Solaris not using the 64bit side.



    The UltraSPARC-1 64-bit bug is highly unlikely to occur. It's a sequence of instructions that no compiler is going to generate. You have to want it to happen, and hand craft the code to do so. I'll admit this makes for a denial of service hole if you run in an untrusted environment. I've run Solaris in 64-bit on Ultra 1's & Ultra 2's w/US1 modules as desktops for years, it's a one line option enable, and I've never had a problem. FWIW, there was a bug on the SS5-170 under one release of Solaris, that suffered an infinite loop problem running certain gcc generated code, and it required a power-off reset. So the TurboSPARC isn't perfect either.

    As for the U1 being a "turbo'ed" SS5-170... Not even close. The SS5 has narrow antique SCSI-II, 10base-T ethernet and a 256mb memory limit. The U1 can be had with wide SCSI and fast ethernet, can configure more RAM, and has a much faster memory system. The ZX framebuffer you mentioned was a double width card, and the TZX was a double width card with a fan card in the third slot, so it's not like you'd have much room to work around these shortcomings. (T)ZX frame buffer support was removed before Solaris 8, which probably forked back in 1997. There's probably very few people left at Sun that even remember it, let alone worked on the drivers. The other SS5 24-bit framebuffer option, the S24 was a POS. I've never met anyone that liked it.

    I wouldn't consider the SS5 to be one of Sun's "great" workstations. It was a refined LX, which was a lower cost SS2, which was a souped up SS1 (which was a kick ass machine back in 1989!). The SS5 was a nice little affordable desktop back in it's day. Like the 486 that was it's contemporary, it's day has come and gone. Throw it in the back room running a DNS server if you must, I admit I have a SS5-170 here at home, which I bought for $10 at a flea market. But get over it and move on. If you're truely hung up on the 4m's, go find a SS20 chassis. It was a much more capable machine.

    which really leaves old Solaris versions (if you can get them)



    Solaris 9u7 is less than two years old. Free as in beer download, and really quite nice. They even fixed logging UFS! A fitting end to the Sun4m's.

    As for the fork, if they could bring code from the Ultra out, there's no real reason they couldnt have brought enough code and binaries out to give 32bit one last version to build onto.



    If you read the OpenSolaris site, there is some discussion on this. The problem is, the sun4m code was torn out early, and then the kernel was modified to take advantage of features that don't exist in the 4m hardware. If you put the 4m support back, you either loose major feature enhancements, or fork the kernel. Again, Solaris is not NetBSD... They're not going to carry HW support forward forever, and sacrifice major enhancement opportunities, just so you can run on 10 year old hardware. Sun left the 4m's behind long before the OpenSolaris effort started.

    BTW - If you read the docs, Solaris 10 requires 512mb of RAM (mostly IMNSHO due to the memory pig called Gnome), so the SS5 would be off the list even if the other 4m's were still supported!
  48. Re:GPL is a CLOSED License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The GPL is closed and incompatible with the real world.

  49. most online games are insecure by design. by petermgreen · · Score: 1

    to get decent performance it is often required for a client machine to know more than its user should know. Worse it may even be able to cause a hit if local hitscan passes to prevent lag from ruining hits (usually within some limits such as the shot adjusted by the server to hit still being feasible).

    hence the only security left is through difficulty of reverse engineering the client to produce a cheat versions. It isn't good security but its a comprimise made because fast responsive games are more important than stopping the hardcore cheaters.

    --
    note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    1. Re:most online games are insecure by design. by Shinobi · · Score: 1

      I know that, and I have taken that into account. But, remember that Quake/Quake 2 has QuakeC, which can be used to do a lot of things. But, within days of the release of the source code, cheating clients were released. And it's already happened with the Quake 3 source too. It suggests that there's not a mere coincidence.

  50. Re:Opensolaris: bmc, allow us to gravedig for sun4 by sethstorm · · Score: 1


    Solaris 9u7 is less than two years old. Free as in beer download, and really quite nice. They even fixed logging UFS! A fitting end to the Sun4m's.


    Well, then why they arent opening that or the infamous "Build 22" that bmc refers to in the same manner just so there is no qualms about "unsupported frame buffers" or problems with security patches is something that escapes logic. It's at least so that there's something that properly supports the sun4m (and maybe sun4c) architecture.

    What would be a fitting end to the sun4m would be able to run any Sun framebuffer (even the S24), and to have the ability to have even other sun4 platforms (CS6400?) run relatively modern code. With all those fixes put in, and what Build 22 supposedly has in it, there could be something that at least builds cleanly and is not just a binary CD that's dropped 2 years after.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.