Reflections On The Revolution

Kotaku has been reporting from the Digital Interactive Entertainment Conference this past week, and they have a short piece on Industry giants talking about gaming on the Revolution. From the article: "Miyamoto keeps dropping his receiver, which is connected to an earpiece through which English is translated into Japanese. The perky student that greeted me at the door tells me that they didn't have money for a Japanese-to-English translator, meaning that I have to pay extra attention to what Miyamoto's saying right now. He's talking about the Revolution controller."

Comments

The Controller

[Eightyford]

What's to stop Microsoft or Sony from creating their own copy of this controller design?

Re:The Controller

[MBCook]

Nothing. Good ideas get copied.

Now that would be an obvious nod to Nintendo. It would also validate them and help the Revolution get games.

However, doing that will have one serious problem for MS and Sony (unless their version tops Nintendo's). We all know how well "required" accessories sell for consoles. look at anything from the PS2 broadband adapter, to the GC broadband adapter, to the Sega CD, to the PS2 HD, to the Sega 32X, to most any light-gun (Guncon, Menecer, Super Scope, etc), to the N64 memory upgrade. They just don't get the penetration to make them terribly useful. Most companies won't make designs that require them because "nobody owns one". So unless Halo 3 and FF XII require it, it will probably stay as an afterthought on the the PS3 and XBox 360.

This means more than likely games wouldn't support it, would "tack on" support (like some of the early DS games, where it just hurt the experience), it would need the controller but you could play with the regular (thus must people would think it was terrible because the control with the normal controller would be terrible), or you will HAVE to have the controller and you won't be able to use the old one (thus the price of entry is $30 higher and sales will suffer).

Nintendo has the right solution. I think we will see Sony and MS copy them, but it won't be until the PSP 2, PS 4, or XBox 720.

Re:The Controller

[MBCook]

Well, I thought a little more and there is one possibility that I should mention.

Both the PS and the Saturn got analog controllers after launch (ostensibly because they saw how good the N64's analog stick helped things). Now both controllers got a lot of use, much more than most add-on peripherals. The fact that those controllers started being bundled with the consoles did help quite a bit.

But the analog stick was obvious, and the control scheme was very close to the old d-pad (just more accurate) so the games didn't suffer as much if you didn't have one as the difference between the Revolution controller and a current controller. Plus the Sega controller had something of a killer app in Knights: Into Dreams.

My point is if they realize early enough and start packing in, they could adapt during the generation, but it would have to be near the later half of the generation (like the analog controllers). Short of a couple of killer-apps each (a new GTA might be able to do it for the PS3), Nintendo will have the lead in the controller area.

PS: Other things: U-Force for NES, any dance pad (and the running mat for the NES), that octagonal controller for the SNES/Genesis that could detected punches and kicks, the SNES mouse, the PS mouse, the Dreamcast keyboard, the power glove, and many others (note: I realize some of these were third party). And, most obvious of all: steering wheels. They have been around forever (arguably the paddle controllers for the 2600) and are obviously useful, but games are forced to allow normal controls because so few people own them.

Re:The Controller

[Anonymous Coward]

Among consoles, Nintendo has led the controller revolution in the past. Weren't they responsible for introducing the rumble feature and the analog stick? They'll be copied in time, but once again, points for innovation will go to Nintendo. Of the big three, Nintendo's the only company with any heart whatsoever, whereas I'm concerned.

Re:The Controller

[MBCook]

True. Nintendo introduced the analog stick. They introduced the rumble pack. They introduced the d-pad (before that you only had joysticks and possibly seperate buttons, they put it together in the classic + shape). They added shoulder buttons.

Before Nintendo what did we have? Little joysticks (2600), paddles (2600), and sets of buttons like a telephone pad (Intellivision). Of course, that idea didn't completely die (see the Jaguar pad).

Nintendo seems to bring it all to us. It gets refined by other companies (Sony added the 2nd analog stick, and introduced built in rumble as opposed to an add-on), but Nintendo is the master so far.

Re:The Controller

[shoptroll]

Because they probably expect to dominate the other in the current market, and will let Nintendo go off and do it's own thing?

I've told several people that I'm interested to see if the Revolution controller will become the new standard if the system does well in this console war, which is an idea everyone scoffs at.

Re:The Controller

[blincoln]

Nintendo introduced the analog stick.

The Atari 5200 and the Apple II both had analogue joysticks as standard.

They introduced the d-pad (before that you only had joysticks and possibly seperate buttons, they put it together in the classic + shape).

The Intellivision controllers were d-pads. They were just round instead of a plus.

They added shoulder buttons.

I think this could arguably be from earlier controller designs too. The Colecovision, Intellivision, and Atari 5200 all had buttons that would be "shoulder buttons" if the controller had been held sideways.

IMO Nintendo borrows concepts from other places that weren't ready for prime-time when they were originally introduced. I think their new idea is still in that category, but fortunately I'll get to see for myself if that's the case or not.

Re:The Controller

[AuMatar]

Nintendo had the first analog thumbstick, different from joystick.

The Nintendo D pad was digital, as compared to the analog Intellivision. Very different gameplay from the two. Sega Genesis used an analog only because N had the patent on digital

Re:The Controller

[G-funk]

God I hated the boys at apple for that. You could buy a digital stick / dpad for the generic sega/amiga/amstra/etc plug for like $15. But nooooooooo, apples had to get $80 rare-as-hen's-teeth analog things, with so many complicated moving parts they broke after 12 months.

Lousy 80s.

LONG LIVE CREEPY CORRIDOORS!

Re:The Controller

[Judge_Fire]

The Intellivision controllers were d-pads. They were just round instead of a plus.

But they had 16 directions, equally accessible, without needing to hold down two buttons as in d-pad diagonals. It was a great controller.

J

Re:The Controller

[Guppy06]

"Both the PS and the Saturn got analog controllers after launch (ostensibly because they saw how good the N64's analog stick helped things). Now both controllers got a lot of use, much more than most add-on peripherals. The fact that those controllers started being bundled with the consoles did help quite a bit."

True, but try to find a PlayStation game that required the analog stick. Just about every published PSX game I can think of was playable with the old digital pads, simply because there was still no guarantee everybody had a DualShock.

Sega had the right idea for helping with analog stick penetration: include it with a game like NiGHTs.

Re:The Controller

[thezapper77]

I believe Ape Escape on the PS was Analogue only. I think there was also one or two others (but i can't confirm).

Re:The Controller

[Anonymous Coward]

the running mat for the NES - the Power Pad

that octagonal controller for the SNES/Genesis that could detected punches and kicks - the Activator

Thank you.
-The Nitpicker's Association of America

Re:The Controller

[MBCook]

Yes it was, thanks for pointing that out.

Ape Escape made FANTASTIC use of the dual sticks. The left stick was used to move around, while the right stick let you swing your weapon in any direction (instead of just in front of you). This gave you great control. But they also used it for vehicles and other things. For example, when in a little raft the left analog stick controlled the left paddle, the right controlled the right paddle. Same kind of thing when you were in a tank.

They did a masterful job with the control in that game. That can just can't be done without the dual analog sticks (I've read reviews of the PSP version that says this is one of it's achilie's heels).

Re:The Controller

[blincoln]

The Nintendo D pad was digital, as compared to the analog Intellivision.

The Intellivision has a digital pad. Everything in the controller works like a modern keyboard - you're pressing two bits of plastic membrane together to make a connection.

Are you maybe confusing the controller interface with the way the controller itself works? The NES has digital connections for the controllers - they're serial ports, IIRC - but the actual buttons and pads on the NES, Genesis, and Intellivision are all digital in that they only have two positions - on and off.

Re:The Controller

[IntergalacticWalrus]

Believe it or not, patents can be applied not only to software, but hardware too. I think that's what they were made for, actually. But I'm not too sure. I'll have to verify that.

Don't RTFA

[Anonymous Coward]

It's just the ramblings of a japanophile who's reporting more on the experience of being at a round-table discussion than any acutal news. Everyone on stage seems to have said 'no comment' or some variation thereof...

Re:Don't RTFA

[Rydia]

I agree completely. I read on and I see "Kojima-san" and... "Bushnell."

Okay, that's cool, guys. Honoriffics aren't part of english. We have our own way of handling it. You know Japanese, that's nice. But mixing the two to try to sound impressive makes you sound like a massive twat. Saishi rashikunai zo.

Other Mentions

[MBCook]

I can't wait for the Revolution. The PS3 and the 360 are nice, but they are more of the same. The Revolution is the one that really interests me.

However, I just saw a article on Kotaku that says a top guy from Valve is very excited about the Revolution (as is Kojima).

Plus, apparently Miyamoto hinted at that same event that there is still some big feature of the Revolution that is under-wraps. Considering what they've already showed us, I can't wait to see what else they've got up their sleeves.

Re:Other Mentions

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus, apparently Miyamoto hinted at that same event [4colorrebellion.com] that there is still some big feature of the Revolution that is under-wraps.

The controller doubles as a Fleshlight.

Re:Other Mentions

[Breakfast Pants]

I heard about that other feature. It is going to revolutionize the future. Basically, instead of hooking up to the TV, the Revolution will hook up to this 3d display that goes on your head. I know you might say, "this has already been done for years," but get this, instead of being in color, it will be in red. It will be awesome.

Re:Other Mentions

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL!!!

Jesus Christ you're so funny, I gotta masturbate to get rid of this humongous hilarity erection.

El Controller & El Price

[Anonymous Coward]

Any word on what the revolution will cost? I'm hoping it's in to $200 range, that'd be sweet & affordable.

Also, what's the big deal about the controller? The only revolutionary thing about it that I've heard is that it's got a gyroscopic motion detector. Is there anything else, or should I be more excited about gyroscopes?

Re:El Controller & El Price

[Xugumad]

$200 sounds promising, and I'd be amazed at any release version above $300.

As for the controller... I'm wondering that too. I think it will be very pick up and play, but for those of us who have been using mice, keyboards and joypads for the last decade or two, I don't think a controller that's easy to learn to use, is anything special. Beyond that, I've heard suggestions it would be great for sword fighting, golf and fishing.

Fishing controllers are nothing new:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000 01P4YN

Same for golf:

http://www.qmotions.com/

So... it's good for sword fighting? Don't get me wrong, I think this will rock for anyone that's picking up a console controller for the first time, and it's good that Nintendo are trying new things, but I don't think this is some miracle controller that we'll wonder how ever did without...

Re:El Controller & El Price

[SharpFang]

Yes, you should be more excited. Gyroscopes, accelerometers plus some kind of positioning system. Full six degrees of freedom at wide movement range and full 360 degrees rotation range. As opposed to classic joystick-like manipulator, with 2 degrees of freedom and maybe 30 degrees rotation range.
That means the manipulator can act as: Knife, gun, pen, mouse, fishing rod, joystick, driving grip (motorbikes), tennis rocket, and mostly everything you hold in hand and move around, that doesn't give you important force feedback that can't be simulated with rumble. Possibly, as a sword it would suck, but it's possible to use as one too.

Re:El Controller & El Price

[NanoGator]

"but I don't think this is some miracle controller that we'll wonder how ever did without..."

Can't say I agree with that. I just tried to play the XBOX 360 demo game... err.. forget the name but it's a WWII game where ya run around and shoot etc. Couldn't stand trying to aim my gun. I ached badly for the Rev controller.

Re:El Controller & El Price

[Sage of Lightning]

"Also, what's the big deal about the controller? The only revolutionary thing about it that I've heard is that it's got a gyroscopic motion detector. Is there anything else, or should I be more excited about gyroscopes?" The Reveloution will sense the controller's postion in relation to the TV, not just the tilt, full detection in X,Y, and Z axis.

Re:El Controller & El Price

[Bibz]

"Also, what's the big deal about the controller? The only revolutionary thing about it that I've heard is that it's got a gyroscopic motion detector. Is there anything else, or should I be more excited about gyroscopes?"

It will also make coffee and confort you when you feel sad
j/k

Re:El Controller & El Price

[Joehonkie]

I want a tennis rocket.

Re:El Controller & El Price

[SetupWeasel]

You do not understand the level of control this offers. You see only the motion aspect. Think about the pointing possibilities, and imagine the kinds of games that could benefit from such control.

Let me put it this way, I think that one of the genres that will benefit most from the revolution controller is traditional sports games. The pointing will be the key.

Re:El Controller & El Price

[Rayonic]

I ached badly for the Rev controller.

Don't jump the gun. For all you know, the Revolution controller will function like a floaty, laggy air-joystick.

Couldn't stand trying to aim my gun.

It's a bit hard to get used to freelook with a thumbstick. Up the sensitivity, practice, and it gets kinda okay. What you have to remember is that console FPSes are designed to be beatable with such a control setup.

Re:El Controller & El Price

[DarkJC]

Don't jump the gun. For all you know, the Revolution controller will function like a floaty, laggy air-joystick.

Yeah, that's definitely a possibility, but if Nintendo has any sense at all, the controller will be as responsive as traditional analog stick methods. Nintendo isn't stupid, and they know for a fact that no one will put up with a laggy control scheme.

Re:El Controller & El Price

[NanoGator]

"Don't jump the gun. For all you know, the Revolution controller will function like a floaty, laggy air-joystick."

Fair point. One of the reasons I took it for granted that it'll behave well is that IGN reported that the Metroid Prime demo worked really well. You'd be correct in saying, however, that I should hold off my expectations of the Rev controller until I've tried it.

Re:El Controller & El Price

[AuMatar]

I can see some definite sports uses. Want to pass? You don't have to remember what button is what teammate- just point at the reciever. Sounds like it would be good for qb and basketball games.

Re:El Controller & El Price

[Lord_Dweomer]

The one issue I keep forseeing with the Revolution controllers is how they will work force feedback and recalibration. I mean...so you're swinging a "lightsaber" in a game. What happens when they make contact? Its not like it has force feedback to halt your controller in the air.

Re:El Controller & El Price

[vexx0]

The force feedback probably wouldn't be that much of a problem I think. It will probably work like a mouse cursor, just like when you move it to the edge of the screen, you stop moving the mouse. Even if you keep moving it, you don't have to make up for that movement. As far a recalibration goes I'm sure there will be a way to center the pointer pretty easily by holding a button and centering it then realeasing the button.

Re:El Controller & El Price

[SharpFang]

That's the only point where it can't simulate "real world".
It will rumble.
That's all.
And that's what I meant by "swordfight may suck".
A tennis rocket makes contact with the ball for a fraction of second.
The fishing rod, the throwing knife - no force feedback. Steering grip - very little feedback, road bumps etc. Gun - recoil at most.
There is still no way to simulate the material resistance. Most likely it will be in the next Nintendo, a servo-rotated heavyweight gyroscope that makes turning it hard, when not allowed, would limit movement in the 3 rotary degrees of freedom. Still no idea how to limit movement.

Re:El Controller & El Price

[The-Trav-Man]

Magnets man, it's all about the incredible, life extending power of magnets. You get some gloves, put them in a box with electro magnets around the edges and then you can push pull, stop twist, rumble and otherwise mangle the players hands however the game wishes. Of course safety and practicallity will first have to take a jump.

Re:El Controller & El Price

[rohlfinator]

"Don't jump the gun. For all you know, the Revolution controller will function like a floaty, laggy air-joystick."

Like my sibling posts have already pointed out, hands-on impressions seem to imply otherwise.

A 1up editor said that "It always shot exactly where it felt like I was aiming, and was incredibly responsive to even slight wrist movements-I barely had to move my hand at all."
IGN claims that "It was easy to get a feel for just how sensitive the device is -- it responded to all the movements quickly and smoothly. We did feel the need to use two hands, however, to steady it and improve accuracy, but that only lends to the idea of just how sensitive it is."
Edge Online states that "...this new, precise control system could well be the first time that mouse and keyboard-style precision is brought to console gaming by a native controller."
Gamespot's impressions didn't really delve into the accuracy of the controller, but they didn't have any complaints with the demos.

I suppose the controller could change before launch, and there's a chance that it may be prone to breaking or other reliability problems. But from the few hands-on impressions we have, all reports are that it works exactly the way that it's been described.

Re:El Controller & El Price

[justchris]

Yes, there's some reason to worry about that, but I look at it this way.

Anyone who's never used a sword, when they get such a game, will swing it in an attempt to decapitate everyone, or push it far forward to skewer them.

After which it will be blocked, and while they're trying to recover, they'll get lightsabered to death, which will teach them not to do that.

Re:El Controller & El Price

[AscendantOat]

The expansion port gets lost amid the hubbub over the motion/tilt sensing (which is not gyroscopic, from my understanding); it lets developers add whole controller segments. Nintendo's going to make good use of it, but since many core functions are handled by the Revolution controller (e.g. power supply, console connection, motion sensing), it could also make custom controller segments cheap enough to be designed for and included with individual games: racing wheels, fishing rods, custom button configurations, etc. Some GB and GBA games do this already, with rumble, tilt sensors, and even solar cells built into the cartridge.

Re:El Controller & El Price

[AscendantOat]

I don't see force feedback, but there's a "home" button for recalibration. Want to sit somewhere else in a multiplayer game without telling your character to walk off a cliff? Just hold down home while you do it.

Re:El Controller & El Price

[Rayonic]

LOL @ previews.

Previews are always positive, especially for a hot new item such as this. Write something offensive and the Big N doesn't send you a demo unit next time.

That said, I certainly hope the controller works well.

Re:El Controller & El Price

[rohlfinator]

Riiiight. Like, for example, when journalists at IGN played preview copies of Geist and criticized it for three years straight. That didn't stop them from getting one of the first review copies (which, incidentally, they also rated poorly). The same situation happens with dozens of journalists and dozens of products. A lot of the media expressed disappointment with the PSP showings at the last two E3s. Did that stop Sony from giving them advance copies of GTA:LCS? Heck no.

You can hold your conspiracy theories if you'd like, but most game journalists aren't too afraid to tell people what they think. Sure, they might put a positive spin on a crappy product, possibly by saying, "The controller wasn't very precise or comfortable, but we're sure Nintendo will work it out before launch." But most of the game media (IGN and GameSpot especially) won't flat-out praise something purely out of fear.

And besides, Nintendo can't afford to lose the support of top sites like IGN, Gamespy, GameSpot, and EGM. If those sites don't mention the Revolution, many people won't even know it exists.

Are you sure about that?

[Corngood]

Full six degrees of freedom at wide movement range and full 360 degrees rotation range.

I've read as much as I could find about the controller, but I've never found anything that explicitly states these facts, so I'm a little worried it might not have full 6dof absolute positioning.

In the pictures of the device, it appears to have a window on the top of it, very similar to the LED window on most remote controls. At first I assumed it was just to allow the thing to act as a universal remote, or at least turn on your tv; however, there is one picture out there which has that window labelled as having something to do with positioning. Any sort of line-of-sight based positioning is probably a bad sign, or at least a reality check for those who are expecting miracles.

Do you, or anyone, have any technical information on how the positioning will actually work?

Re:Are you sure about that?

[Lehk228]

if it is optical positioning it probably works more like an optical mouse without the laser, looking at the room and using that image to detect motion and rotation

Re:Are you sure about that?

[Boogaroo]

I'm a bit tired at the moment, but I seem to recall there being two radio thingys to stick next to the TV.
Triangulation would be the method used, it's not optical. No way could an LED interface do what Nintendo is having these controllers do. The Power Glove was IR, I know(I actually did pretty well with the thing playing Zelda 2), but unless Nintendo's come up with magic to improve IR these are guaranteed to be RF.

Re:Are you sure about that?

[SharpFang]

It's most likely used for precise screen positioning - gun aiming. Method similar to light pen, or classic "optical pistols" used in video games. I DOES have "something in common" with positioning but it's just one of many positioning systems contained in the controller.

Re:Are you sure about that?

[Corngood]

Interesting idea, but I don't think that would work particularly well. You'd have problems with low light, and certain environments (big white walls, etc). You could probably detect twisting pretty well (rotating around the length of the controller, but on the other axes it would be hard to separate linear and angular movement.

Re:Are you sure about that?

[Corngood]

I'm almost certain the power glove was ultrasonic, not IR. It could track a huge number of degrees of freedom, and I've even seen people hook it up to a PC and use it as a full data glove (albeit not a highly precise one).

Re:Are you sure about that?

[justchris]

You are correct about the Revmote. It uses 2 sensors and triangulation for positioning. Nintendo hasn't stated whether it uses gyroscopes for angular movement detection, or if it also uses the sensors for that as well. I don't think they ever stated whether it used RF, but I think that most likely what is used.

Re:Are you sure about that?

[AscendantOat]

Wavebird was RF, so there's no reason not to use it for Revolution also.

Re:Are you sure about that?

[Wandering Idiot]

I don't think they ever stated whether it used RF

Bluetooth in fact, according to this. (Then again, he's a marketing head, he might not be the most knowledgeble person technically...)

I'm guessing if they really are using triangulation to determine the controller position, there would have to be another sensor point in the console iteself in addition to the two external ones.

Games?

[LordJezo]

I hate to ask it but has there been any footage of any game for the Rev at all yet?

Sure, the controller is nice, but has there even been a single screen shot about what the content on the system is going to be?

Re:Games?

[blincoln]

I hate to ask it but has there been any footage of any game for the Rev at all yet?

No.

I'm a little astounded that people are so excited based only on what their imaginations are conjuring up as possibilities for what they assume the controller will be able to do.

Re:Games?

[AuMatar]

Blame it on the utter lack of anything new except a processing boost on any of the other systems.

Re:Games?

[G-funk]

Why? It'll be like the 360 and the ps3 visually... More polygons, better textures. We've seen it. We're over it. And the fact that the PS2 outsold the GC and XBOX makes it pretty clear that having the best graphics doesn't count for much, and it's all about games and (mainly in the US) perceived cool, ie "the cool kids have one" advertising.

Re:Games?

[jchenx]

No public footage. However, several demos were shown to the press (http://hardware.gamespot.com/Story-ST-15143-2567- x-x-x). It sounded like it was more "proof of concept" type of stuff. We'll have to see how it pans out in the end.

Re:Games?

[cowscows]

There's also the fact that screenshots generally tell us zero about how the gameplay will work/feel. And double that when you consider the new control mechanism. If Nintendo puts out screenshots, or even movies probably, then they'll just be playing into that same marketing game about shaders and pixels and textures...all that number crunching stuff that they're trying so hard to convince people isn't the real point of games.

The revolution games will probably be a lot like the DS, in that for the really interesting games, you can't separate the software from the hardware. Looking at screenshots of Kirby: Canvas Curse didn't do much for me until I had spent some time using the DS. Then it seemed more exciting. And it ended up being a great game. I think the exact same thing will happen with the revolution. I imagine most of their advertising will be a little more vague and branding-ish, and they'll use demo units and kiosks in game stores to really demonstrate the games.

Re:Games?

[justchris]

Exactly, not a single second of game footage shown, and it's already generating more excitement than the Xbox 360 which has already been released. I'm pretty sure that's what they were going for with the new controller. It's unlikely they'll show game footage until early next year. It's still at least 6 months to system release, so they have plenty of time.

no screen shot / game footage

[Anonymous Coward]

I think i've read somewhere that there was a statement released saying something to the effect of "since the core mechanics of the games are so intricately tied to the use of the controller, showing screenshots, game footage..etc just won't do the system justice..."... and the article gave the distinct impression that the first consumer 'taste' of the revolution will be hands on.. not just watching pretty screens...

More of the same

[xswl0931]

Interesting that you consider PS3 and 360 more of the same when Nintendo's innovation is putting out more sequels. I don't see how Nintendo is any more innovative than anyone else in regards to software when all you get are Mario, Zelda, Metroid, etc... repeats. I currently have an XBox, PS2, and Gamecube. I've bought the least amount of software for the Gamecube and played it the least amount simply because I was tired of playing the same game with new graphics. What makes PS2 and XBox better is the 3rd party support.

Re:More of the same

[cowscows]

Yes, because as we all know, Nintendo is the only one who ships sequels for their big franchises.

And you've got it all wrong. All the mario stuff is the same graphics, but in lots of different games.

I've got all three systems as well, except I've bought the most amount of software for the Gamecube. Go figure.

Oh, and you're conveniently ignoring the whole hardware side of things, which is basically what the parent post was referring to when he mentioned the Revolution. Hard to imagine him considering the software when Nintendo hasn't announced much of anything about the games.

Re:More of the same

[justchris]

Actually, you're blatantly incorrect.

Unless you're going to tell me that Super Mario Bros. is the same game as Mario 64.

Perhaps the original Legend of Zelda is the same game as Ocarina of Time, or perhaps it'd be better to compare it to Zelda 2?

There is a difference between franchises and sequels. GTA3 is in the same franchise as GTA2, but isn't really a sequel. They had the technology to improve the game, and made it a different game, but with a similar name.

Mario has Mario Party, Paper Mario, Mario Kart, Mario Baseball and so on. They're part of the same franchise, but they're hardly sequels.

That being said, there are 7 Mario Parties now, true sequels, all basically the same game. I personally couldn't stomach more than one of those, but just because you dont' like sequels, doesn't mean everyone else hates them. What's more, with the revolution controller, we can look forward to something new even in sequels. I plan to pick up Mario Party for the Revolution, which will be the first one I've picked up since the original, because it will likely have sufficiently different gameplay (at least in the minigames) to make it worthwhile.

Myself, I actually own more PS2 games than Gamecube games, but then I'm a big fan of RPGs and Strategy games.

Re:More of the same

[BenjyD]

Mario repeats? I wish there were more of them (assuming you mean Mario 64 style games, and aren't confusing characters and gameplay).

Re:More of the same

[xswl0931]

Let's look at the games you mentioned:

Mario Party, as you stated, has had MANY sequels
Paper Mario, this IS a sequel on the Gamecube, read some of the reviews, it's essentially the same game, just different graphics (for the record, I finished this game since I didn't play the first one)
Mario Kart, the only "innovation" here is having two characters on one car, otherwise, it's the same game as on N64. I would actually say that Mario Kart on the SNES was superior gameplay wise to the Gamecube version (for the record, I own the Gamecube one and never play it)
Mario Baseball (or any sports game), I wouldn't exactly call these games innovative

Let's look at some others:

Zelda on Gamecube is basically the same game as on Nintendo64, instead of a horse, you have a boat. Instead of digging, you fish. The puzzles are exactly the same (push stuff around, light torches). (for the record, I finished this game)
Mario Sunshine has a few new things, but nothing groundbreaking and is clearly an evolution of Mario64. I also finished this game.
Metroid, basically the same game but with 3D graphics. Even the backtracking is the same. I also finished this game.

I'm not saying that these sequels aren't fun, but I didn't bother with Metroid Prime 2 or any othe other Mario games simply because the novelty had worn off. I'm sure the party games will be great on the Revolution with the new controller, but I'll take more of a wait and see approach, but will probably get the X360 and PS3 sooner than later.

Re:More of the same

[justchris]

Notice every single game you mentioned was a Gamecube game? That has been the major complaint about the gamecube, at least from Nintendo fans, who don't buy into the Kiddy image. It's that all Nintendo's greatest franchises have produced nothing but sequels on the new system. When you get used to jumpng from Super Mario Bros 3 to Super Mario World to Mario 64, and then you get Mario Sunshine, not matter how good a game sunshine is, it feels like a let down.

I wasn't trying to say that sequels are bad, or that Nintendo doesn't make sequels, they make plenty of sequels, but the parent was confusing franchise games with sequels, which isn't the same thing at all.

Silent Scope

[ndogg]

This would be the first home system that would adequately have hardware support for that game.

Someone must see this, and come out with a proper sniper game.

Apparently you haven't been reading the news much

[ianscot]

I don't see how Nintendo is any more innovative than anyone else in regards to software

Personally I don't think Nintendo's been any more innovative than anyone else in the colors they use for their AC adapters, either, as long as we're limiting the discussion to score "points."

Yeah, it is kind of hard to say that the software's no different when no games have been announced for the new machine. But apparently you didn't notice that the Revolution controller is something new and completely unlike the "We smooshed existing controllers a little" offerings from Sony and MS? Apparently you didn't notice that, between the DS and the few public features of the Revolution, Nintendo surely is encouraging unique programming styles? There's a whole bevy of interesting games using the DS's stylus control, including surgery titles where you make sutures by zig zagging with it. The Revolution controller's tech demos were more interesting than anything MS has ever done.

You're right that the third party problem is what Nintendo has to get past. But the games you cite as examples of moribund franchises with nothing but re-tweaked graphics are not particularly good examples of that. If you want a mediocre franchise resting on its laurels, Zelda isn't the place to look. (Hello, EA sports? Maybe you could stop adding polygons to Shaq's bald pate and make rebounding physically possible one of these years.)

If these latest Nintendo systems get wiped out in the marketplace, we can count on the industry basically being mired in utter mediocrity for a good while. Sony and MS are battling for marketshare and have no love of the games. Nintendo is the indie film circuit next to the Hlooywood studio competition.