India's Road To The Future

Paul 03244 writes "Historians, economists and technologists agree that movement of ideas, goods and services are fundamental to trade & advancement of the human condition. Today's online version of the NYT has a rather lengthy but fascinating article on the construction of a modern highway system in India that details some of the social & cultural changes being brought about by this highway project." Interesting to look at the parallels between the spread of tech and services in India and the same process in the U.S.

Comments

Re:I hear the Indians are upset

[Coneasfast]

the project is being outsourced to the United States.

yep, i hear they train these american construction workers to speak with an indian accent.

Remember what Hihgways are

[lawpoop]

Highways were first thought up by Hitler to aid the Blitzkrieg technique and move armies and supplies quickly around Germany. He correctly imagined that the bottleneck in modern industrial warfare was not in the factory at all but in the delivery in the goods to the battlefield.

Truman developed the US highway system to prepare for war with the USSR. The long east-west highways would be the long supply chains bringing supplies from northeastern factories (i.e. Detroit) to the Western front/staging area in California. Highways out west were designed to be wide enough and have a long enough straight line to allow for a B52 bomber to land and be refueled. They still practice this to this day.

Slashdotters are fond of posting that porn and warfare drive technology. Highway systems are driven by warfare.

Re:Remember what Hihgways are

[Scoth]

Close, but no cigar:
http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/airstrip.asp

The highways/interstates were never intended as landing strips. Besides, when's the last time you heard of traffic being shut down/diverted for the practice landings?

Re:Remember what Hihgways are

[pokstad]

It actually was Eisnhower who signed the bill for the Interstate System, he was impressed by Germany's autobahn when he was there commanding US forces. Interesting point though, that freeway systems were first developed for war strategies, but now for economic development.

Re:Remember what Hihgways are

[Wyatt Earp]

Thats a common belief, but the US Interstate system was being planned during the 1930s, but other capital dam projects tied up men and concreate. Then the Second World War hit and the plan was shelved again.

The Autobahn as a tool of the Blitzkrieg sounds good, but in fact they were thought up in the 1920s in Germany and Switzerland and they were limited in scope even during the build up of the 1930s. The first section from Frankfurt am Main to Darmstadt opening in 1935. This straight section was used for high speed record attempts by the Grand Prix racing teams of Mercedes-Benz and Auto Union. During World War II, the central reservation of some autobahns was paved to allow their conversion into auxiliary airports. However, for the most part, the autobahns were not militarily significant, and most military and economic freight continued to be carried by rail. Thousands of kilometers of autobahns remained unfinished, their construction brought to a halt by 1942 due to the increasing demands of the war effort, as Germany always had manpower issues even with all the slave labor they used.

The interstate system was authorized by the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956 and championed by Eisenhower. In 1919 Ike had been involved in a National Defense planning operation to move units across the United States and it took months, similar operations by Patton before the war showed a need for better highway infrasturcture in the US. One potential civil defense use of the Interstate Highway System is for the emergency evacuation of cities in the event of a potential nuclear war.

http://www.tfhrc.gov/pubrds/mayjun00/onemileinfive .htm
"I have no idea where the one-out-of-five claim originated. Perhaps it is giving too much credit to whoever originated this "fact" to suggest that it began with a misreading of history. Under a provision of the Defense Highway Act of 1941, the Army Air Force and the Public Roads Administration (PRA), now the Federal Highway Administration, operated a flight strip program. In a 1943 presentation to the American Association of State Highway Officials, Commissioner of Public Roads Thomas H. MacDonald explained how it worked.

"A flight strip consists of one runway, laid down in the direction of the prevailing wind, and a shelter with telephone for the custodians at the site and for itinerant flyers in an emergency. Fuel storage facilities are not provided unless airplanes are based there permanently. Instead, oil companies will keep stocks of aviation gasoline at gas stations along the highway and truck it to the flight strip as it is needed."

The flight strips were designed for easy access to public highways and to provide unmistakable landmarks that could be followed easily by a pilot. Flight strips varied in size. The smallest -- 150 feet (46 meters) wide and 4,000 feet (1,220 meters) long with the length increased by 500 feet (152 meters) for each 1,000 feet (305 meters) of elevation -- were designed for tactical aircraft such as medium bombers. A larger flight strip could accommodate heavy bombers such as the B-17 and B-24, while still larger strips were designed for heavier classes of aircraft.

The benefits weren't expected to be entirely military. As MacDonald explained, "The close coordination of our highways and airways is becoming a vital necessity to assist the economic growth of this country."

In that spirit, Congress considered including a flight strip program in the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1944 -- the law that authorized designation of a "National System of Interstate Highways." However, the 1944 act did not include the flight strip program."

Re:Remember what Hihgways are

[servognome]

Rails have far higher capacity than roads and they use only a small fraction of the fuel of roads.

Rail was used extensively for moving materials in previous wars. Rail is good as a backbone, for constantly moving large amounts of materials through secured terrain (eg heavy equipment from the midwest to coastal harbors). Rail does not give you the flexibility of motor transport, requires constant control (two trains on the same track = bad), and an existing secure infrastructure (you need trucks on the front lines).

Both rail and road are moderately vulnerable to enemy bombing.

Rail is far more vulnerable to enemy bombing/sabatoge. With roads, vehicles can move off the road if needed to get around an obstacle, if rail is damaged, you can't move off the rail for a short stretch, the rail has to be repaired.

Re:Remember what Hihgways are

[Compuser]

The idea of building roads to aid movement of military units and
war-related shipments is rather old. The Romans built the roads
in Europe for that purpose. Indeed, it was the Roman army that
did most of the building. So ascribing this idea to Hitler is a bit
much. In fact, had this been Hitler's thinking, he would have never
invaded the Soviet Union, since that place had a lot of land and only
a few very bad roads. Many of those roads would become impassable
during rains so fall through spring the road system was terrible
and merely usable in the summer. So no, Hitler as visionary of road
building is kind of a laugh.

Re:Remember what Hihgways are

[mrokkam]

it should be noted that India does have one of the world's largest railway system (5th as per most statistics). But it is still insufficient for the purposes of trade or transportation of goods.

from wikipedia: "It is also one of the largest and busiest rail networks in the world, transporting just under five billion passengers and almost 350 million tonnes of freight annually. IR is the world's largest commercial or utility employer, with more than 1.6 million employees."

Some statistics
Wikipedia article on Indian Railways

Re:Remember what Hihgways are

[JanneM]

The highways/interstates were never intended as landing strips. Besides, when's the last time you heard of traffic being shut down/diverted for the practice landings?

Sweden does use public roads as military airfields. The idea is to be able to very quickly set up a temporary airfield, resupply the aircraft and then leave again. Not highways, though; it's usually secondary roads with a section straightened and widened, and with a few (normally empty) buildings in the nearby forest. And yes, I've seen a road closed off by air-force guards a few times and a fighter plane come down for landing and takeoff.

Re:Remember what Hihgways are

[thogard]

Facts on /.? Now for some more info...
Albert Speer's department worked with automotive engineers under direction of Ferdinand Porsche to change the rules about what a highway should be. They did the tables of calculations for the slant of the road as well much work on bridges and grade refinements. At the time a major state road in rural US areas would consists of two lanes with about a 1 ft grass median and there were a few multi-lane highways but all the others were just built like a typical paved street. Speer's group was the one that came up with extended bridges that would never flood as well as overpasses which lead to roads that could be used at night and after snow. Speer's main job was to build the "New Rome" and what he built was supposed to inspire the whole "might of Rome" concept so he did have an advantage when it came to justifying building a huge flat road out in the middle of nowhere complete with overpasses and fancy bridges.

The slope calculations are important because a road must have a slant to get rid of the water. The problem is then the car is going to run down hill and run off the road. The result of Porsche's groups work is a slight adjustment to the suspension so that the car tracks correctly on straight roads but slanted and properly banked roads. You may notice a slight dip before right banks and small hill before left turns on well built highways. Thats there to unbalance the suspension so that it will properly track the curve and nearly every modern car will track properly.

I've seen a bridge plans distributed by the US DOT (whoever it was in the '30s) that had Albert Speer's seal on it and someone had converted all the metric to feet/in. There are many bridges in Kansas that were built using that as a basic plan. Highway construction seemed to increase dramatically once Thomas Edison lost some of his monopoly on cement.

There was some law that ended up building landing strips in nearly every county in the lower 48 States. Their major use was for many years flying checks around and I expect the early funding was either part of a post office or banking bill. The stuff about using highways for landing strips makes no sense today considering all the side markers and signs and power lines that cross the things but drivers in Alaska have to give way to planes landing on the road.

Re:Remember what Hihgways are

[JonathanR]

The main highway between everything and Perth (Western Australia) actually has landing strip markings on it (and yellow diamond roadsigns warning drivers to watch out for landing aircraft.

Re:Remember what Hihgways are

[Animats]

Switzerland also has some road sections that can serve as emergency military airstrips. The Swiss like to be prepared.

No Open Defecation By 2010

[IEBEYEBALL]

No Open Defecation By 2010. Puts a whole new spin on the phrase "outsourcing".

Corruption... ?

[geneing]

I came across an article in the Economist. They are much more cautious about the economic development in India. They mention corruption, bureaucracy, strong communist parties in parliament as the major threats. I'm hoping that someone with first hand experience could say more about this...

Re:Corruption... ?

[toetagger1]

To your point of corruption & bureaucracy, it doesn't seem to have stopped the US, so why should this stop India?

Re:Corruption... ?

[metlin]

Yeah, there is a significant amount of corruption and bureacracy in the system, but for the most part, privitization has helped cut down on that significantly.

However, there is no real strong "communist" party in India - the existing government is being supported by the Communist Party of India, they have minimal say. The thing is, until about 30 years ago, India and the Soviet Union were fairly close. And as a newly independent nation, a government that had equal parts public and private sectors seemed like a good idea at the time.

However, gradually, the public sectors began to be privatized. Sure, the Communist party of India occasionally throws a tantrum, but nobody listens to them anyway. If at all, they have some semblance of power in all of two states, only one of which is consistent.

To be fair, there are some politicians who're above this, and who really understand technology and the need. For instance, the President is a rocket scientist (quite literally) and the Prime Minister is a renowned economist (he was awarded his Ph.D. in economics from Oxford and has been a professor of economics).

Of course, like any system, there are corrupt folks, and folks who refuse to change or adapt to the new system, particularly since it undermines their power and authority. But most of these are at the state level, and the Central (equivalent of Federal) government has a lot more power, and is a lot cleaner, too (relatively speaking, of course).

So, to answer your question - there is some definite corruption and bureacracy, but it's on the decline. More privatization and media exposures have largely made it harder, and folks who're at the helm are a lot more knowledgeable and capable.

Here's hoping for a better India in the days to come! :)

Re:Corruption... ?

[metlin]

And I must also mention that the left in India isn't left by a lot of standards (i.e. say, Europe). In some policies, they are quite centric and are even fiscally conservative. And in certain issues, such as privatization of all government assets, they tend to hold more leftist views.

Re:Corruption... ?

[rite_m]

First hand experience from an Indian..

Corruption and bureaucracy are there. But we don't really worry about the communists so much. Their say is limited to their ruling states of West Bengal and Kerala. Also, even though they are part of the ruling coalition, everyone knows that they cannot withdraw the support to the government as they fear the opposition parties (BJP et al) coming to helm.

The recently enforced Right to Information Act should help us alot in fighting corruption and red-tape.

Re:Corruption... ?

[CodeBuster]

The corruption and bureaucracy in India was legendary before the reforms of the early 1990s...just ask any adult Indian living in India today about the "permit raj" and you will know exactly what I am talking about. I once saw a picture of an Indian government permit office, you used to need a permit to do practicaly anything business related in India, where there were three lines stretching from three windows out to eternity with overworked clerks sorting through stacks of paper that reached from the floor to the ceiling in large bundles. In fact, it was so bad that practically every permit was procured by a bribe because it was impossible to work with the system and people had to work around it. Things have gotten better by all acounts since Mahmoud Singh turned things around. There is corruption here in the US to be sure, but compared to many other places in the world we have a remarkably well run and honest government bureaucracy. So the long answer to your question is that it can stop India if they let it get out of control again.

Chapter 4: India's Permit Raj 3:04

Re:Corruption... ?

[bakerst]

I think corruption and bureaucracy are still endemic but there have been a number of areas that the bureaucrats could not get their hands on - for e.g. the IT industry; by the time the politicians and bureaucrats could understand it, it had taken off, greatly aided by the fact that it involved non-physical goods. The larger problem is the law enforcement system which is still controlled by the politicians and hence not effective. Having a good legal system framework is beneficial but is not seen to be working until law enforcement becomes more independent.

Monsoon Railway

[matt me]

If you do ever get the chance to see this documentary, do!

It's called Monsoon Railway and documents how the staff at one station do their best to make the best out of a imposibly overcrowded and out-dated system through one seasons. It's incredibly uplifting. The people work through the night to keep it going. They have hospital trains manned with volunteers to send out in the event of any accident. There's one guy has only the smallest crummiest room himself to live in, but he feels so priveleged that he makes a shelter with his hands for the Indian railway children.

Seriously, if you think there's no hope, no ove, no humanity in this world, watch it. If you feel the third world is corrupt, hopeless not somewhere you can connect with, you're wrong. It made me want to travel, just to meet those people who commit such acts of kindness as if there was no other choice.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/feature s/monsoon-railway.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/feature s/photogallery/indian_rail1.shtml

Nonsense! Re:Remember what Hihgways are

[voss]

Many of Americas highways were built BEFORE WWII. The interstates may have been a defense related project but the Turnpikes werent. Commerce is a far bigger motivating factor than war. War is often just the
excuse to get the road built then the military abandons it.

And you are wrong about Hitler, the Autobahn projects were actually started (1926) BEFORE hitler came to power and Hitler didnt think of them he had really nothing to do with their conception. The first autobahn was started in 1929 and was completed in 1932 BEFORE hitler came to power. Oddly enough the war actually STOPPED contruction of the autobahn.

Re:I hear the Indians are upset

[MillionthMonkey]

I realize the parent poster was trying to be funny but it doesn't change the fact that (IMO) most Americans think our economy is completely built around serving them and that all Indians are tech support people for Dell.

No. Most Americans think all Dell tech support people are Indians. Not the other way around. Dell does not have a billion tech support people.

You are a fake.

[JPriest]

You are not even from India, and you are sifting the anti slash DB for high karma posts to copy and pasting them. Your comment can also be found here.

Re:You are a fake.

[MillionthMonkey]

Yep, he's a fakir all right. [Ducks]

Re:I hear the Indians are upset

[kjots]

All Indians don't work for US outsourcing tech companies. In fact, a very small minority of us do.

That may be so, but don't forget that the huge population difference between India and the US means that even if a "small minority" of you are involved in outsourcing, it is still enough to displace a significant portion of the US workforce. Not that this is a bad thing; it might even encourage them to get of their lazy, fat arses (yeah, you heard me!) and vote for someone who actually gives a shit about something other than taking over the world one oil-rich Middle-Eastern nation at a time.

Good to hear.

[jo7hs2]

I am a big believer in India, rather than China being the country to watch for growth and development. A great deal of this surrounds India's legal system, which closely follows the English common-law system, with a great respect for precedent and contract law. Take a look at the econmic success of both the U.K. and the United States, and you can clearly see the benefits of this system.

Re:Good to hear.

[AtomicBomb]

I am also a firm believer that legal system is crucial to the development of a modern country. It is a bit political incorrect. But, I have to say the importance for the respect of the legal system (ie, rule by the laws, everyone is equal in front of law) is probably way higher than that of a democratic government structure. Let's do the exercise: which one of the major industrialised nation (France, Germany, Japan, UK, US) has universal suffrage at the stage when the economy took off? Check wikipedia... basically none. Which one has a fully working legal system by that time? Every single one. On the other hand, the acutal legal system does not really matter (as long as it is fair to everyone). I can see no reason why, say civil law, is fundamentally worse than common law.

Re:Good to hear.

[dabigpaybackski]

No, China's one-party system magnifies corruption by concentrating it in the hands of the Party elite, who foster the appearance of due process by periodically executing corrupt low-ranking officials. As for the matter of mundane graft and bribery in China among ordinary people, do a little research and you'll find that it is as common as tea over there. That place is dog-eat-dog competitive, having gone from Marxian dialectical materialism to capitalist dialectical materialism in the span of less than a generation.

It's mostly because...

[zogger]

..modern electronics is more crap throw away quality than not, necessitating a lot of customer service calls. When Americans call the handy 800#, they honestly can't understand what is going on in the conversation most of the time, leading to double frustration, a broken gadget and then no way to effectively communicate. And it doesn't help that the tech support guy calls himself "Mike" either, it's just an insult to the customer because he or she knows his name is most likely not "Mike". They are frustrated because A-nothing gets fixed, B-they get insulted right off the bat, and C-they know that this used to be a US job. All of the above and more. This has created contention unfortunately.

    The US right now almost every day in the biz headlines is "more layoffs". I mean big layoffs, significant, large, important. it's *spooky* what is going on to those paying attention. The average person here is starting to get more than a bit concerned over the future. They see blue collar jobs going to china, white collar to india, and service jobs here going to illegal immigrants. Uhh-what's left exactly?

It's not personal, so don't take it personal, just there is no way to get those US bosses and politicians (who aren't sweating the mortgage payment and healthcare and whatnot) to understand that this "globalism" bill of goods they foisted on us isn't working out like they thought. Since they really started pushing it,the past 20 years or so, we've gone from the planets largest creditor nation to largest debtor nation. The middle class is shrinking fast and is exisiting on credit cards and refinancing the mortgage. This is not a good idea. Not-at-all.

  No one has anything against other folks in other lands having jobs,NONE, that isn't the issue at all, the main issue is transferring existing jobs, when they should just be creating new jobs in places like where you are at. It really doesn't have to be one or the other, it can be both if the globalist boss class wasn't such greed-jerk total lamers..and I bet it's the same in India as well.

Re:It's mostly because...

[zogger]

no more so than anything else. It's just reality, I never said if I agreed with it or not or held to the same views, but I don't think it's deniable either..say I half way agree, but I totally understand to make this clear where I am standing on the issue. Just reporting what I have seen,heard and read about, and experienced myself. People don't like crap products, and the products are crap more often than not now a days. So these products need "tech support". This starts it off in a negative fashion. People don't like being lied to - "Hi, I'm 'Mike'" is not a good way to start the conversation when both parties know it's a lie. This is two negatives in a row now, bad product, customer immediately lied to. Two. Then it gets worse as the communication both ways is dismal at best. Three strikes at the ole ball game now. 3 negatives,the customer is getting very upset now. And so on. yes, it happens. No, I don't like it. Yes, I have more in common with "Mike" and with the angry customer, I think they are both victims of the globalist boss class of greed filled goons, but that's another subject.

    And the economic and politics involved is undebateable news, again, just reality, data in the papers, read all about it.

      And misplaced anger?? Helloo, the crap products COMPANY has made their executive decision to employ this person as their official representative for their product, it's their fault, NOT THE CUSTOMERS. To save a few bucks so that millionaires can become billionaires, they make crap products, then they chose to use tech support with a virtually unrecognizable accent. Who else is the customer supposed to talk to, it's WHO THEY GET when they call the help line. If they are upset, they are supposed to act happy?? "Hello! My product is FUBARED, so thank you for taking my money, and now making it even more difficult to figure out what is wrong or how to fix it! thankyou so very much!" You honestly expect people to act like that? On what planet? Why is the anger "unjustified" then?

You want the truth, see Jack Nicholson, he has the quote that fits. Don't shoot the messenger if you are afraid of the report. People don't really blame the poor tech support person, but that's ALL they have to talk to, so poor "Mike" has to eat it. that's what he gets paid for. that's a tech support job, at least half of it anyway. The customer has always, does now, and will always have to somehow transmit across why they are upset, and make it clear they ARE upset. It's the nature of the "tech support call" beast. You aren't ordering a pizza, you as a customer are calling up because there's aproblem serious enough that you *need to call up*. That's the job, don't like it, don't take it, as the rest of the planet is so fond of telling "over paid and pampered" USians now. The customers, who would surely like to, can't just call up Mr. Golden Parachute corporate raider CEO who has screwed up the craptacular gadget corporation and bankrupted it, you get joe lowly "tech support", no matter who that person is or where they are physically located. If "Mike" wants to be upset, "Mike" shouldn't blame the customer-victim who actually shelled out the cash for the craptacular gadget, and who is providing a piece of that cash so that "Mike" can have a paycheck where it didn't exist before. It's a tough life, almost all jobs suck bad,just the "suckage" is different, that's all. Them's the breaks.

Re:I hear the Indians are upset

[spmallick]

"Because the project is being outsourced to the United States"

It might just be the opposite. Because intellectuals/planners in India fully understand that corruption can undermine the economic progress India has made since 1991, many large projects which were earlier undertaken by government bodies are now awarded based on International tenders. Same is the case with this project.

It is a pity that most Americans think that outsourcing has initiated Indian economic progress, while the fact is that we started progressing after the country was left with 15 days of foriegn reserve in 1991 and the Prime Minister invited one of the best economists in the country Dr. Manmohan Singh to join the cabinet as the finance minister. The economic growth of 6.9% that we saw this year was a result of reforms introduced in 1991.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3725357.stm

Yes, outsourcing does boost the economy, it probaby does not drive it.

Ofcourse we are far from what we should be after 50 years of independence, but lately we have made enormous strides and things are begining to change. 15 years back Indians could not even dream of such a project and today they are talking about linking all rivers in India; a feat if achieved would be a significant engineering achievement. Whenever, there is a discussion on how India is making progress, there are be numerous who refuse to see the glass as half full and point to corruption and poverty that rots our society. While the statements are true they fail to see the winds of change sweeping India.

The change is symbolised by the following facts. By coincidence or by design, the Prime minister of India today, Dr. Manmohan Singh, an economist, is the artitect of the biggest economic reforms in the country. The President of India Dr. Abdul Kalam, a rocket scientist, is considered to be the father of Indian missile and space programs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/countr y_profiles/1154019.stm#leaders

In contrast, the President of United States is a cowboy. (No offense, but I could not resist the comparison).

Capitalism Works?

[Dausha]

FTFA: "The real start came in 1991, when India began dismantling its state-run economy and opening its markets to foreign imports and investment."

So, what you're saying is that when India ditched Socialism and hopped on the Capitalist highway, then their economy really picked up speed? Fancy that. Next you'll be telling me that China abandoned Communism and became one of the world's fastest growing economies. Of course, adopt a bloated welfare/medical system, and there goes growth.

Re:Capitalism Works?

[mochan_s]

FTFA: "The real start came in 1991, when India began dismantling its state-run economy and opening its markets to foreign imports and investment."

This is a very bad simplification. When the British left India, it was in tatters. One of the prime push of India after independence was to develop all technology locally and rebuild the society. After they reached the point in development where they knew that the "state-run economy" was more of a hinderance than a help, they slowly started making change.

It wasn't that they just became enlightened at a certain point to capitalism. It was before that point capitalism wasn't the best way of doing things.

Re:Capitalism Works?

[metlin]

Actually, India was never socialist in the sense that you are speaking of. Nor was it ever a welfare state - basically, it was divided into public and private sectors, where the government controlled several core infrastructures in the public sectors. For instance, India has never had a state medical system - sure, there are state hospitals - but still, majority of the medical system in the country has always been privatized.

Anyway, this division made sense at the time of independence because as a newly born democratic state at the end of WW2, with severely depleted resources, it made sense for the government to control core assets and plan infrastructure building. This did work very well for the longest time (check out India's Five Year Plans until about the 70s). Even then, private enterprises did exist in a lot of the domains, just that they had a hard time competing with the government.

The time when the growth started slowing down was about the time Soviet Union died - but this was owing to several factors, particularly a very bad political climate. Even otherwise, the original plan was to slowly privatize parts of the public sector. Such a plan was considered earlier, but was not adopted due to several reasons, some political and some economic.

However, in the 1990s, there was a radical change in the political climate in the world and in India, and private enterprises started picking pace. That, and the fact that India's former ally Russia was facing economic troubles were reasons -- but one of the most important (and often missed easily) reason was the fact that for the first time, India had a significant portion of the middle class of a younger generation with a buying power never seen before. And thus, the free market as you know it was brought into the country in full force.

This changed the economic landscape, bringing forth the change that you see today.

So, India was never really a socialist state in the sense of the word - it was always a mixed economy, taking the middle path (i.e. state controlled where it made sense, privatized where it would fuel economic growth). Even today, the move towards a "capitalist" state is a misleading term - India is still a mixed economy, only that it's leaning more towards capitalism with less of a state control over infrastructure.

Re:Capitalism Works?

[The Cydonian]

basically, it was divided into public and private sectors, where the government controlled several core infrastructures in the public sectors.

To paraphrase TN Seshan on this, there's never been a good reason why the government has had to make condoms, for instance. And let's not even get into the whole shebang of respective state governments making television sets, scooters, refrigerators, cars, watches, milk-based products, bread, hotels, restaurants and so on, so forth. And even in the few places where the government didn't exist, the private sector had its goals set by the government; Lakshmi Mittal, for instance, was once famously asked by the Indira Gandhi government to reduce his steel plant's production capacity because it was over what the babus had planned for.

In short, what you stated was the Nehruvian explanation for India's brand of Fabian socialism, but is not enough of an explanation for the sheer amount of state control of the markets that later governments have had, and indeed, continue to have to this day.

For instance, India has never had a state medical system - sure, there are state hospitals - but still, majority of the medical system in the country has always been privatized.

Actually, that's not entirely true; our primary healthcare has always been in the public sector (which, for instance, would explain the relatively high healthcare metrics in Kerala, compared to relatively more prosperous Karnataka or Tamil Nadu). Private sector is more or less limited to tertiary healthcare (i.e., elective surgery) centers; you'll never find an Apollo or an Escorts doing, for instance, work on improving infant mortality rates or better vaccination. Not necessarily because they are coldhearted bastards, but mostly because that's not their job.

Again, tertiary healthcare in the public sector is heavily subsidised; AIIMS and other so-called super-speciality hospitals provide free healthcare to anyone with a Below Poverty Line ration card (the colour is white in Andhra Pradesh, don't know what it is in other states).

Another place where state-funding is apparent is in seeing how the annual Constituency Development Funds get spent; most MP's prefer setting up swanky new hospitals with no equipment or staff, than do something useful, like say, fund existing research in their constituencies or something.

So yeah, while we don't have an NHS-like system in India, the reason is not a lack of intent, but lack of a clear policy. That health is a concurrent subject (ie, both the central and state governments can make policy on this topic) doesn't help the cause.

The time when the growth started slowing down was about the time Soviet Union died - but this was owing to several factors, particularly a very bad political climate.

The current thinking apparently is that the beginnings were in 1981, when GoI allowed investment by Suzuki in the Maruti plant in Gurgaon. The Balance of Payments crisis merely formulated one-off attempts such as the Maruti into a coherent national policy.

So, India was never really a socialist state in the sense of the word

Socialism has different meanings in different parts of the world, of course, so I suppose if you talk in terms of, say, pre-Deng-Xiopeng Chinese socialism, or the communist countries, then yeah, we weren't socialist. But we were, and indeed, the Congress I and the Left are, socialist in the west-European sense of the term; among other things, the Directive Principles of State Policy states that it is our constitutional goal to create conditions for the establishment of a welfare state.

Heck, we've been the Sovereign Socialist Secular Democratic Republic of India for thirty years now.

Wrongly addresses 'India' on all issues

[dongshu]

The intensity of the issues mentioned here is less in South India. If you encounter 10 cows driving 150 kilometers in North India, you would only encounter 1 cow driving that far in South India.

Re:I hear the Indians are upset

[Ksisanth]

the fact that (IMO) most Americans think our economy is completely built around serving them and that all Indians are tech support people for Dell. Not only is this incorrect but it is insulting and I just took advantage of this topic to let off steam.

Remarks about what most Americans think, usually based on shallow, stereotyped views of Americans as egocentric dullards (a view which even some Americans hold, egocentric dullards that they are), can also be taken as incorrect and insulting.

Why not more rail?

[putko]

Does anyone -- perhaps an Indian -- know why India is building roads, and not rail?

If they built rail, they could transport more goods and people at a lower cost -- but with greater latency and planning required.

Because India is a poor country, don't they need more bang for their transportation buck, and not necessarily more convenience? Are they at least going to make the people who use the roads responsible for paying for them -- e.g. the cars and (especially) trucks that wear them out?

Why would they want to commit to a gas-based transportaiton system when, if they built trains, they could generate electricity and use that to power most of their transportation?

This looks like pretty bad public policy.

Re:I hear the Indians are upset

[heinousjay]

That's not true at all. Anything bad about Americans that you read on slashdot is true. Anyone not American is enlightened, and likely years ahead of us technologically, socially, and spiritually as well. Plus more attractive, and overall worth more to the race as a whole.

That is all.

Indiana's Road To The Future

[dlmarti]

Indiana, thats how I first read it.
I think its more unlikely the way I saw it first.

Re:Aryan Invasion?

[CaptTofu]

The term 'Arayan' means people who came from the Northern part of India, those who practiced the Vedic society (Sanatana Dharma) not blonde Europeans (who in Vedic scripture were refered to as Mlechas - barbarians).

Hitler, who also hijacked the Swastika (inverted/perverted from it's real direction) as the symbol of National Socialism, was a Vedic symbol of good luck, prosperity. Just as with the Swastika, he also hijacked the term 'Arayan'. Interestingly enough, Vedic culture for the most part were vegetarians, which Hitler also was.

He probably read a bit about India and Vedic Culture, and incorporated perverted misconceptions of these ideas he fancied into his whole sick, concocted philosophy.

Re:I hear the Indians are upset

[shmlco]

They did vote... every time they went into WalMart or some other store and bought cheaper goods, thus getting more "value" for their dollar. Time and again, for the majority of people, price and not quality was the overriding factor, and you don't get cheaper prices by hiring over-priced, under-producing workers.

Much like citizens demanding more services and fewer taxes from the government, workers demanded ever higher wages and benefits and vacation time from their companies, while at the same time demanding cheaper prices for goods and services. In both cases, however, there's a limit, and if money doesn't come in, it isn't there to give out.

There was a recent TV report on Indian outsourcing on TV, and the study in contrasts was amazing. These people realize that they're being given an opportunity, and they're willing to WORK for it. Millions of kids are studying as hard as they can to prepare for it. What happens here? No one gives a damn, and millions watch the clock, waiting until they can go home and watch TV.

Yeah, "W" is an easy target, but it's not his fault. Nor is it the fault of those greedy corporations. Americans did it to themselves. Maybe after its citizens spend a decade or so in abject poverty, America will regain her work ethic.

But I doubt it. Much more likely we'll stand on our "rights", find someone to blame, and demand we bomb the shit out of them....

Re:Aryan Invasion?

[CRCulver]

the article mentions aryan invasion as one of the significant events in India's history.... wasnt that theory debunked as fantasies of colonial occupiers?

The replacement of indigenous Dravidian languages in the north by an Indo-European dialect brought from an Anatolian or North Pontic urheimat is upheld by nearly all reputable scholars. Now, it's not certain that the speakers of Proto-Indic came with the sword, there instead could have been a more gradual cultural influence, so "Aryan invasion" is a poor choice of terminology.

Any guesses?

[SeventyBang]

When will the software dished to them be something clean enough the people who hired them can understand it well enough to be able to make mods & enhancements for subsequent versions?

It's been documented they aren't able to deal with their own code and have to rewrite it for v2.0.

This is not a good sign of companies having saved money.


There isn't a shortage of IT people. there's a shortage of good IT people. And bad coders can write bad code faster than good coders can write good code or fix the bad code, yet productivity numbers favor the goober who writes it in a fraction of time but it's substandard. (if engineers or people it the medical industry conducted themselves with the same quality, society would have disappeared a couple of centuries ago.

Re:Fairly good article

[Yartrebo]

They sure brought a lot of misery too. The Romans were responsible for a whole shitload of wars, and generally wars of aggression. They're also responsible for a number of genocides, the most notable being that against Carthage.

Re:Aryan Invasion?

[CRCulver]

So there is also an alternate theory that proto-dravidian was also proto-sanskrit.

A theory based on no reasonable grounds. Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Dravidian have considerably different phonological, morphological, and typological structures. It's obvious to any neutral observer that they have no close relationship.

Given the European penchant for Racial "Supremacist theories"...

Most comparative linguists don't care about the colour of any proto-language speaker's skin. We're just interested in grammars and lexicons. Accusing those who disagree with you of being racists won't win you any turf in an argument.

While, there is overwhelming evidence (based on the Vedic narratives)

Few reputable historians would consider the Vedas to be legitimate history. They serve other goals than being dry and factually accurate, just like the Christian Bible. The Vedas have a rich importance in terms of their poetry, theological thought, and are important as the earliest attested Indic document, but they cannot be used as historical chronicles.

What you might want to know is that an important part of the Iran/Iraq (Persia) pre-islamic civilization was an offshoot of this Indigenous Vedic people (from the Indian Subcontinent).

Avestan and Old Persian, the languages of the pre-Islamic civilization of Iran, are from a different Indo-European lineage than Sanskrit. Regardless of what ideas flowed from India to Persia, the languages of pre-Islamic Iran are not descended from Sanskrit. Rather, both Avestan and Old Iranian, and Sanskrit are descended from Proto-Indo-Iranian.

There might have been an Aryan Migration, but more likely than not, it was from India outward, rather than the other way round.

This theory is not very well esteemed in the academy. It is upheld mostly by Indians with little linguistic training who have sinister goals linked to nationalism or religious fundamentalism. I'd rather trust scholars a couple of continents away who have no real agenda other than a love of language and the changes it goes through.

Corruption in the Highway Project took its toll

[animeshpathak]

Something that the article missed was that 2 years ago, an IIT engineer was gunned down in the state of Bihar because he blew the whistle on some of his seniors who were awarding contracts for the highway construction illegally. The most shocking part was that his letter to the ministry, which was marked highly confidential, was subject to the usual beaurocratic chain in the ministry, which led to the blowing of his cover and his death. The culprits have still not been brought to the book. However, this started a movement which is driving the creation of a whistleblower protection act in the Indian parliament.

More information about Satyendra Dubey is at the website of the S.K.Dubey foundation against corruption.
-A

Andhra / Telugu dominance in the US

[Anonymous Coward]

He had three daughters living there, one a computer engineer, the other two married to computer engineers. Most of his engineers - almost all, like him, from the southern state of Andhra Pradesh - had relatives in America, too.

No wonder that Andhraites (who speak the language TELUGU, popularly known as 'Italian of the East') form majority of the software professionals in the US. From Google's corporate page - 'Dozens of languages are spoken by Google staffers, from Turkish to Telugu.'. Telugus also form majority of the Indian employees in Microsoft. Not surprisingly, Hyderabad, not Bangalore, is getting the new US Visa Consulate as more than half of the visa applications from South India are from that state.

As expected, almost every major American city now has a Telugu organization
http://www.telugutanam.com/italianofeast, and Tollywood, one of India's largest film industries has found a profitable overseas market in the US.
http://www.telugucinema.com/c/cat_index_24.shtml

Re:I hear the Indians are upset

[metlin]

While people elsewhere blow up abortion clinics?

*shrug*

There is always a section of populace that does some screwed up, ridiculous things - generalizing such to and across a whole population, or worse yet, a whole nation, is ridiculous at best and offensive at worst.

Re:Corruption...(mod parent down, not insightful)

[mckyj57]

You have no idea what corruption is if you think the U.S. is corrupt. In general, the U.S. is the least corrupt large country ever seen.

I have a friend who came from India, and when he got here I asked him the question I ask all new arrivals to the U.S. -- "What surprised you most about the U.S. when you got here?" His answer was, "The honesty and integrity of your government."

He offered this story:

        I went to the Social Security office on my second day here. I
        got in line, and right behind me walked in a businessman in
        a fine suit. I automatically got out of his way to let him
        go to the front of the line, but he said "No, of course not.
        You were here first."

        Then I started looking at the line in front of me. There were
        about five people, and first in line there was an obvious wino.
        When he got to the window, he had trouble stating his need and
        the clerk patiently helped him fill out his form.

        I got my documents in 15 minutes with no difficulty at
        all, and I was treated kindly and respectfully.

        I was thunderstruck. In India, to get official documents like
        this without a month or more of wait, you must pay off the
        local officials. The size of the baksheesh determines how much
        priority you will get -- if you don't pay enough right away,
        you will be sent away with another form to fill out.
        Eventually, you will get your documents. A rich businessman
        goes to the front of the line, pays his greater amount of
        baksheesh, and gets the papers immediately with no question.

        Later I found out that it would be foolish to even offer
        baksheesh here. You might get worse service because you
        had attempted to bribe the official, or even potentially
        arrested for attempted bribery.

        This attitude pervades your people and gives them a
        confidence and power most of our people cannot have.

I will not make the blanket statement that there is no wrongdoing in
our government, but our government is certainly not corrupt in the
sense that almost all but a few Western European and Nort American
governments are corrupt. Corruption pervades, wrongdoing is isolated.
The U.S. is not corrupt.

Bribery (somewhat) Legalized in Texas

[woolio]

In Texas, when one is stopped for speeding, they have the option to take a defensive driving course to get out of the ticket. (This is a state law). Upon completion of the course, the ticket will be dismissed. However, one still has to pay "court fees" even though there is no court appearance.

To a typical scenario is as follows:

1) J. Doe gets stopped in a small town for going 65 in a 55.
2) J. Doe sends check/money order of ~$100 to small town court.
3) J. Doe takes defensive driving course...
4) Ticket dismissed.

Note: The sending of the $100 technically is supposed to "delay" court proceedings. Which means means at no point was the citation ever upheld.

So basically J. Doe gets to pay court fees to "prove" he his innocent... Since when does the victor pay court fees in criminal trials??????????????????

This is really a bribe (thinly disguised), and it is manadated by law!

Yes, I know India has far more serious corruption problems, and is getting better. But where is the US going?

Not Mahmoud Singh..

[Pranjal]

The correct name is Manmohan Singh who was the finance minister at the time when reforms were kicked off and is currently the prime minister of India.

Re:Aryan Invasion?

[tinker_taylor]

This theory is not very well esteemed in the academy. It is upheld mostly by Indians with little linguistic training who have sinister goals linked to nationalism or religious fundamentalism. I'd rather trust scholars a couple of continents away who have no real agenda other than a love of language and the changes it goes through.

Everything that you have posted unfortunately (for you) reflects your ignorance. You claim linguistics but you probably have read only translations upon translations of Max Mueller's 19th Century philological Christian opinion on the Indic history. You claim that the Vedas are theological texts -- I say that it is more than that. It is a recorded account of the way of life of the people of that time. You might suggest "sinister motives" but the truth is far from it.
What are your linguistic credentials? Who are these "We" you quote?

I grew up there...

[copdk4]

and some of my uncles had contracts in these highway projects. And I can tell you how this 'Road bizness' goes on in India.
First, lets start with my small town in western India (couple hundred miles from Mumbai). Every year they build new roads in the town but not 'new ones' instead they 'rebuild' the roads over same ones.. why ? coz every year the road breaks down (with lot of pot holes and gravel comes out), mostly due to heavy monsoon.. They dont use good quality asphalt and mix lot of gravel.. Ahh and one more reason why the roads break apart is that they start building new roads right around MAY-JUNE when the monsoon season starts in India and hence the road doesnt get chance to 'strengthen' all over my stay there (1982-2003) this happened every year and I m sure its a common phenomena all over the country.

Secondly, these construction companies (that includes my uncles & co.) who are subcontracted to build roads use all sort of means to bribe everyone right from the small clerk to big politicians (yes you have to feed'em all) to get the 'tender'. Once they get the 'tender'/contract.. they just wait.. wait.. like a frog... until monsoon sets in.. thats when they start building roads.. so its breaks faster.. and they can get another contract..

Thirdly, you would not believe but on all these highways.. they literally 'cut-off' margins on both side of roads to 'save' money.. and when you have to make such long highways we are talking about savings in millions.. No govt official ever goes to do any inspection..

Fourthly and most importantly - TOLLS ! what the NYT article doesnt talk about is that most of these highways are built in segments with each segment given to some construction company. What happens is that these companies show large costs and the govt says fuck that we cannot pay that much amount..so Company says.. let us built TOLL booth.. and we will recover rest of the money in 1 or 2 years.. and guess what, they go on collecting tolls for years.. w/o any road maintenance n all..

However, people in India are really happy with highways without potholes coz they can finally run their Japanese and American cars above 100Kmph since we basiclly dont have any COPs that comes after you to give tickets.. (isnt that cool !, the probability of you hitting a cow or dog or sheep (which I did once) and/or dying is higher than COP catching you for speeding)

Last winter I had been to India and we drove thru famous 'bombay-pune' highway which every 'Mumbaikar' would boast about since its modelled after Amercian standards and all fenced so no dog or cat or sheep can get in.. but the problem with people driving in India is that they are not used to looking at roads signs (we are not necessariy required to give a road test.. e.g. one day I was watching TV and my dad is like.. here son..your new licence..I had been driving since I was 14 :) okay along the bombay-pune highway my friend who was driving missed the exits twice and we had to travel like 20kms to get back.. oh well..sometimes these advances come with their own price.

China's railway into Tibet and India's border

[Anonymous Bullard]

While India which is extending its domestic transport network to aid its peaceful development and quality of life of its own citizens, the non-democratic behemoth in the north is finalizing its own centrally-planned super-project: a railway connecting China with Tibet, the buddhist, armyless country which the communist army of Mao Zedong invaded 1950 and have been brutally occupying for decades.

The new rail link will not only speed up China's environmentally disastrous exploitation of Tibet's national resources but also hasten the systematically executed demographic disaster which is intended to turn Tibetans into a disenfrancised and sinociziced minority in their own country, not unlike Mongolians after the chinese communists took over "Inner Mongolia" and extended China's railway network there.

China is already using occupied Tibet, historically a neutral buffer state between India and China, as a military and nuclear missile base overlooking South Asia. Part of the Indian planners' realization of the need for an improved road network to complement the existing railways has undoubtably been China's communist-era expansionism towards India (including China's still unresolved invasion of north Indian territories soon after Tibet had been occupied), and Chinese military's ability to easily disable India's railway network with a sneak missile attack from their bases in Tibet.

In ideal world the democratic nations would have a common policy of supporting the economic development of democratic developing countries like India while refusing to prop up expansionist dictatorships like China through trade and investment.

Unfortunately for democratic principles, the special interest groups behind the leaders of the currently rich democratic nations are finding it more lucrative to do just the opposite.

Re:"mile by mile"?

[meringuoid]

I thought India was metric.

India was British for centuries. The UK is mostly metric, apart from long distances, which are in miles, and quantities of milk or beer, which are in pints; pints, I might add, which are rather larger than American pints, which I'm told you call British pints.

Chances are the Indians have acquired some of this fascinating heritage of inconsistent measurement :-)

Re:I hear the Indians are upset

[meringuoid]

In contrast, the President of United States is a cowboy. (No offense, but I could not resist the comparison).

You mean, in contrast to all your guys being Indians? (That was probably equally irresistible :)