Alaskan Cyclotron - Not in My Backyard!

j-beda writes "Wired reports that "Albert Swank Jr., a 55-year-old civil engineer in Anchorage, Alaska, is a man with a mission. He wants to install a nuclear particle accelerator in his home." To be used to create medically useful isotopes, and even though some of the neighbours are supportive, opponents "compared potential damage from a cyclotron mishap to the Three Mile Island nuclear reactor accident" though an expert says "Probably the worst thing that could happen with small cyclotrons is that the operator might electrocute themselves." It looks like the Anchorage Assembly plans to hold an public hearing on December 20 to determine whether Swank will be permitted to install the device."

Comments

I can understand the hold

[millahtime]

I can understand the hold. It's all about risk. People in the area most likely don't know the possible repurcussions of this. At least, they havn't been stated before the record. If the repurcussions are low, I am sure this will go in without a problem. Have to look out a little for public safety.

Re:I can understand the hold

[Anonymous Coward]

It's all about risk.

What risk? Oh, wait, you mean the risk that the crackpots that the "opposition" digs up saying that a cyclotron could blow all of alaska to kingdom come could actually be right?

Look, I know people talk about bias and shit, and how everyone should listen to "both sides" of every argument, but didn't it occur to you that sometimes the other side is just plain wrong?

Re:I can understand the hold

[pocopoco]

Just like how irradiated food succeeded so brilliantly even though it is safe? Most people hear the word radiation or nuclear and that's it for them, logic never comes into play.

Re:I can understand the hold

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the problem? He installs a helipad without getting approval, you install an anti-aircraft battery without getting approval. These things have a way of sorting themselves out.

Re:I can understand the hold

[penguinoid]

I can understand the hold. It's all about risk. People in the area most likely don't know the possible repurcussions of this. At least, they havn't been stated before the record. If the repurcussions are low, I am sure this will go in without a problem. Have to look out a little for public safety.

No, it's all about fear. So a cyclotron can produce nuclear reactions. So what. It only produces radiation in one direction, and I could stand in front of one plenty long without dying (yes I would get damaged). But put a chunk of lead in front of it and no problem, or just point it upwards.

It might be able to explode due to heavy magnetic fields, but that wouldn't be very powerful. You should be afraid of natural gas, that can make a real explosion. Maybe people are justified in being afraid of nuclear power plants, but there are several models that can't explode.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but a lot of people should start moving to Kansas...

Re:I can understand the hold

[diablomonic]

49.9 % of the population has below average inteligence

Re:I can understand the hold

[SageMusings]

Psst....Buddy, want to buy a .Sig?

Re:I can understand the hold

[Overzeetop]

1. People fear that which they do not understand.
2. Nuclear Physics is hard* (apologies to Barbie(R))
3. People fear Nuclear Physics

*Definition: Hard: "Cannot be completely understood by any human based on common adult eduction methods**."
**Definition: Adult Education Methods: "a 3 minute news story delivered on television in a sensationalized manner by a non-technically educated reporter."

I think my sig is rather appropriate today...

Re:I can understand the hold

[aelbric]

I agree that the general reaction to anything nuclear is tantamount to instantaneous hysteria. Even if the "other side" is misguided, there is never harm in a public conversation about an issue that is disputed. I could understand wanting to know a bit more if this guy were living next to me.

Emergency legislation banning home cyclotrons? Gimme a break. Why not just have a councilmember go talk to the guy and say "Hey, look. Your neighbors are concerned. How about coming and giving a presentation to explain this thing to everyone before you install it?"

My problem is that every disagreement in this country has to be some kind of a crusade nowadays. Don't like something? Protest! Shortchanged at the store? Sue! Teacher give your kid a B-? Lynch him! Guess we've lost the art of conversation.

My opinion: If there is no serious, likely risk, let him have it.

Re:I can understand the hold

[jafiwam]

Mod parent down as full of shiat.

Vitamin C, for example is chemically fairly close to glucose and can be synthesized in large quantities.

If the food is getting enough radiation to break up vitamins, it's you are doing it wrong.

Radiation treatment kills LIVING cells, in particular bacteria and viruses and so on... stuff that makes you sick.

Sodium chloride or sodium iodide is the same no matter what the source. (Psst, that's why they call it that, because it IS that.) It doesn't matter if the atoms come from the moon, the ocean, or horseshit.

Parent is spouting typical left-wing holistic medicine hokum masquarading as "health".

Re:I can understand the hold

[Stroman Rebar]

Just as an FYI, here in the US the NRC doesn't regulate cyclotrons, individual states do. There is a loophole in the regs about short lived radioactive material. Since all parts of the cylclotron are non-radioactive (or start that way, neutron activation eventually rearing it's ugly head) and most of the products produced by cyclotrons have short half lives, that falls out of the perview of the NRC. The FDA steps in if the products will be used for human consumption, but otherwise it is up to the State Radiation Protection Agency (or equivalent) to regulate the use of cyclotrons. I know that some folks within the NRC aren't happy about it, but that is the situation as I understand it.

Re:I can understand the hold

[Abcd1234]

That's why I recommend that, after eating your irradiated food, washing your hands with antibacterial soap, and spraying your house with lysol, you should go outside and eat some dirt!

Re:I can understand the hold

[arfonrg]

"Radiation treatment kills LIVING cells, in particular bacteria and viruses and so on... stuff that makes you sick.

You need a constant influx of bacteria and viruses in order to keep our immune system strong. If you "cleanse" your immune system you'll end up getting whipped out by a flu or the common cold.

It doesn't "cleanse" your immune system, it keeps it active (the old "if you don't use it" rule) and you'll get a steady supply of bacteria and viruses from plenty of other sources. It's also an argument of WHICH bacteria and viruses you get. Some are worse than others.

Irradiation is the second best thing that has happened to food supply with canning being the first.

May be he should have opeted for a Brige

[chandip]

Local lawmakers rushed to introduce emergency legislation banning the use of cyclotrons in home businesses. State health officials took similar steps, and have suspended Swank's permit to operate cyclotrons on his property.

This the same lawmakers who wanted a A bridge to nowhere costing $941 Million?

Re:May be he should have opeted for a Brige

[bcattwoo]

This the same lawmakers who wanted a A bridge to nowhere costing $941 Million?

Now to be fair, the bridge itself cost only $223 million. The $941 million was for the overall pork that Alaska got in that bill. That works out to ~$1500 per Alaskan compared to the $86 per citizen for the country as a whole.

NIMBY YIMBY

[corcoranp]

That'll bring down your NIMBY score...
I'd put a skateboarding halfpipe next to him, maybe that will improve the area.

(What do you care about the subject for?)

[shobadobs]

This is just people being stupid. Also the reason they dropped 'Nuclear' from NMRI.

Re:(What do you care about the subject for?)

[Ford Prefect]

This is just people being stupid. Also the reason they dropped 'Nuclear' from NMRI.

I think it was more that if you went to your hospital and said you were in for an NMR, you might have received something other than a Nuclear Magnetic Resonance scan... ;-)

Re:(What do you care about the subject for?)

[dwandy]

The National Maritime Research Institute dropped nukes?

The real question,

[gentimjs]

How do I get one installed in MY home? While it doesnt have the style points of being able to say "You do realise each one of us has an unlicensed nuclear accelerator on our backs?", it certainly would be a conversation peice ;-)

Back Yard science

[LiquidCoooled]

Plenty of people do stupid shit in their garden sheds, thats what they are there for!
I have read about a kid building a reactor from smoke detectors, and the NZ guy who built his own cruise missile.

I sense a business opportunity for lead lined garden housing :)

Also, didn't Young Einstein manage to split the beer atom in his? (and with a hammer and chisel if I remember rightly)

Re:Back Yard science

[phlegmofdiscontent]

You can't really build a nuclear reactor with the radioisotopes in smoke detectors. Yes, you can collect the Americium-241 found in smoke detectors, but you won't get much. You could even collect quite a bit of it, if you collected, say, several tens of thousands of smoke detectors, but it would be useless. The isotope is found in an oxide form. Those oxygen atoms would act as neutron absorbers, immediately damping any reactions. One would have to purify the element, something that's beyond the abilities of a kid. Even then, you wouldn't get enough neutron emission to create a chain reaction. You'd just have a pile of stuff emitting low level gamma rays and alpha particles.

I read the link and it is very obviously fake. I mean, come on, the kid had the same last name as one of the discoverers of nuclear fission, Otto Hahn. And really, with the steps outlined in the article, you'd only get a few grams at most of any of the materials. Certainly not enough for a reactor.

lack of science

[emamousette]

You would think that after the Manhattan project didn't incenerate the earth as it was feared it would by some people incited by a few wrong-headed scientists, that folks would do a little research before knee-jerking their way to denying this man his chance to do basic research.
To me, the only valid complaint one might make without having ana advanced degree in physics would be wondering about the effects of the huge magnetic pulses this would put out and the effects on his neighbors' electronics for the few micro seconds a day. But then again, if their house is close enough to be affected by these fields, they're too close anyway.

Re:lack of science

[MightyMartian]

Fantasy and delusion will trump reality every time. Look at all the fluoride and anti-vaccine freeks out there. It's easy to manipulate people, just hook into their innate self-rightousness and moral outrage, and they'll buy into any bullshit you care to throw at them.

NIMBY!

[QuantumPion]

While obviously a cyclotron can't compare to a commercial nuclear power plant, I wouldn't want my neighbor building one. Aside from self-electrocution, they can release high energy photons which could reach other people, if improperly shielded. There is also the issue with any radioactive waste he may produce. The risk may be miniscule, but people generally shy away from non-controllable risks. While the guy is a civil-engineer, TFA doesn't say whether he has training or experience in nuclear technology or health physics either.

That said, I think it would be awesome to have a back-yard cyclotron. Imagine all the cool things you could do, activate pennies, evil radioactive monsters, become THE HULK, etc.

Re:NIMBY!

[jafiwam]

I don't think I would want my home computer(s) on the same local transformer loop on the electrical grid either.

UPSs and surge protectors can only do so much.

That guy is going to be using A LOT of power and have BIG magnets for that thing.

Maybe he should move his buisiness to I dunno... maybe a comercial park or something where that sort of stuff is better tolerated. A buisness running from a home that causes problems for the residents in a residential neighborhood needs to shut down or move IMO.

Re:NIMBY!

[bigpat]

While obviously a cyclotron can't compare to a commercial nuclear power plant, I wouldn't want my neighbor building one. Aside from self-electrocution, they can release high energy photons which could reach other people, if improperly shielded. There is also the issue with any radioactive waste he may produce. The risk may be miniscule, but people generally shy away from non-controllable risks. While the guy is a civil-engineer, TFA doesn't say whether he has training or experience in nuclear technology or health physics either.

The fact that he actually sought a permit should be a good indication that he is looking to play by the rules, seems that such concerns could be easily handled with some sort of inspection by appropriate authorities. I had a neighbor who kept exotic pets in his backyard, he had a license and every once in a while a state inspector would stop by and check out his backyard to make sure the animals were being well cared for. The risks seem comprable.

Re:NIMBY!

[polypody]

Fortunately even high-energy X-rays (which is what you would be dealing with in terms of photons) don't get very far in air so the guys neighbors will be safe. That's why the dentist jams the x-ray machine in your jaw. I worked for several years around synchrotrons and the major risk is electrocution, NOT radiation.

Re:NIMBY!

[iabervon]

A small cyclotron is probably no more likely to leak nastiness than a microwave or CRT, and his cyclotron would presumably get inspected on occasion. It's not like it uses hazardous fuel or is self-sustaining. (For that matter, a cyclotron isn't particularly "nuclear"; it accelerates either ions or electrons). If I were his neighbor, I'd be primarily concerned about him overloading the electrical wires in the neighborhood or erasing his guests' credit cards with the big electromagnet.

TFA does say that he's built cyclotrons before, and he doesn't seem to planning to actually do the medical testing himself. On the other hand, I'm not clear whether he intends to have a PET scanner in his dining room, or whether there's a CAT scanner in the area that could be made dual-use. If there's a local hospital that's got the equipment or space to use the tracers he's going to produce, I don't see why he wouldn't install the cyclotron there, rather than trying to get the tracers to the scanner before they decay each time. The University of British Columbia hospital, for example, gets their tracers from a cyclotron a mile and a half away, and they needed to install a pneumatic tube to get them to the hospital in time.

dihydrogen monoxide

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet he wants to use dihydrogen monoxide as a coolant too. Got to watch out its dangerous stuff. http://www.dhmo.org/

Here ya go

[QuantumPion]

Albert Swank Jr., a 55-year-old civil engineer in Anchorage, Alaska, is a man with a mission. He wants to install a nuclear particle accelerator in his home.

But when neighbors learned of plans to place the 20-ton device inside the house where Swank operates his engineering firm, their response was swift: Not in my backyard.

Find local technology jobs. Local lawmakers rushed to introduce emergency legislation banning the use of cyclotrons in home businesses. State health officials took similar steps, and have suspended Swank's permit to operate cyclotrons on his property.

"Some of the neighbors who are upset about the cyclotron have started calling it SHAFT -- Swank's high-energy accelerator for tomography," attorney Alan Tesche said. "Part of what's got everyone so upset is we're not sure when it's going to arrive on the barge. We know Anchorage is gonna get the SHAFT, but we just don't know when." Tesche is also the local assemblyman who represents the area where Swank and his cyclotron would reside.

Johns Hopkins University agreed to donate the used cyclotron, which is roughly six feet tall by eight feet wide, to Swank's business, Langdon Engineering and Management.

The devices are relatively scarce in Alaska, and are used to produce radioactive substances that can be injected into patients undergoing PET scans.

Short for positron emission tomography, a PET scan is similar to an X-ray. During the imaging procedure, radioactive material administered to the patient can help medical professionals detect cancerous tissue inside the body. The substance typically remains radioactive for only a couple of hours.

For Swank, the backyard cyclotron is a personal quest: He lost his father to cancer years ago, and he says his community needs the medical resource. He also wants to use it to inspire young people to learn about science.

"My father worked with me while I was building my first cyclotron at age 17 in this same home, and he encouraged all of the educational pursuits that resulted in who I am," Swank said.

"Because of that and my desire to not see other cancer patients suffer -- if I can use this technology to prevent one hour of suffering, or stimulate one young person's mind to pursue science, I will devote every resource that I possess to that."

Swank maintains the device is not dangerous for nearby residents.

But assemblyman Tesche says noble intentions don't outweigh potential risks and nuisances. He and others fear a particle accelerator could pose hazards such as radiation leak risks to nearby residences. They also think the large amount of electricity it consumes could drain available power in the neighborhood.

"We in Alaska embrace technology, and we love it -- but we would like to see this in a hospital or industrial area, where it belongs," Tesche said. "We don't need cyclotrons operating out of back alleys, or in someone's garage."

In a letter to the city assembly, the South Addition Community Council compared potential damage from a cyclotron mishap to the Three Mile Island nuclear reactor accident.

"Cyclotrons are not nuclear reactors," explains Roger Dixon of the Fermi National Accelerator laboratory or Fermilab in Illinois, funded by the U.S. Department of Energy. "Probably the worst thing that could happen with small cyclotrons is that the operator might electrocute themselves."

At Fermilab, Dixon oversees the world's highest-energy collider, about four miles in circumference. It smashes matter and antimatter together so scientists can study the nature of energy.

Dixon told Wired News that shielding from concrete walls or lead sheets is typically used to prevent the electrical beams produced by smaller cyclotrons from escaping.

"Our neighbors here at Fermilab like us," said Dixon. "But then, our particle accelerator is not installed in a living room."

Some of Swank's neighbors are not worried. Veronica Martinson, a homemaker who has lived next door to Swank for 36 ye

Great .. now this will

[bxbaser]

call attaention to my cyclotron and they will pass laws and ordanaces banning them ,and i just replaced the electrode cooling pipes with a radiator from a 1972 ford maverick.

no negative effects?

[mabus42]

in the article they quote an expert from fermilab. incidentally i grew up less than 5 miles from there and all i have to show from it is this third eye and multiple superfluous nipples. one of my neighbors was affected to the extent that he can set things on fire by only using his mind... why did i have to get the shaft when it comes to deformities/mutations caused by cyclotrons? WHY GOD WHY?!?!?

Take the city's side on this one

[PartyArtie]

This guy's running a business. If he's using industrial equipment, he should be in an industry-zoned location. Why would he be running it out of his house? Save money on a building? Avoid paying property taxes? Avoid OSHA regulation? Not so noble. It's not like he's a weekend inventor with contraptions in his basement that likely would only hurt himself. This is heavy-duty equipment (20T) that will be used by a (presumably) for-profit company.

Will they burn him at the stake...

[PhotoBoy]

... if he's found guilty of witchcraft?

Re:Pish and posh

[plover]

RTFA. He's not "making one". He's receiving a donated used one from Johns Hopkins University. It's already fully functional, it just needs a power cord and a place to park it where the neighbors won't complain.

But you're right: I wouldn't worry too much about the nuclear splitting capabilities either. Adequate lead shielding will protect the neighbors just fine.

Re:Three Mile Island

[qwertphobia]

I hope you were being facetious.

Three Mile Island was nearly catastrophic. And radiation did leave the plant during the accident.

A quick Google search gave me this:http://www.fatherryan.org/nuclearincidents/tm i.htm/

I was a young child then, and I still remember the terror of living within the evacuation area. Nobody knew when they would need to jump in the car and leave their homes behind.

Don't cross the streams....It would be bad.

[waterford0069]

Dr Ray Stantz: You know, it just occurred to me that we really haven't had a successful test of this equipment.
Dr. Egon Spengler: I blame myself.
Dr. Peter Venkman: So do I.
Dr Ray Stantz: Well, no sense in worrying about it now.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Why worry? Each one of us is carrying an unlicensed nuclear accelerator on his back.

Objections not entirely crazy.

[dotmax]

These things are not toys. They make prompt and residual radiation. It's made to transmute elements into radioactive forms. Concern is not unreasonable.

Again: this machine will be used to make radioisotopes. Short half lives or not, the proximal homowners have a legitamite reason to be concerned about a radioisotope factory next to their homes. What about contamination issues?

2: It is reasonable to have some concern about shielding. Anything energetic enough to make radionuclides can also make X-rays by the assload. Given that we're talking nuclear transmutation, a concern about neutron radiation (fairly long ranged and not stopped by standard rad shielding).

ASS-U-Ming the installation will be industry standard, there shouldn't be a problem. If this guy doesn't know what he's doing, he could cause problems. Given that nobody seems to know what his specific shielding and radcon/exposure control plan is... he screwed up by not getting preapproved in advance.

FWIW, i have run a re-tasked SDI helium-3 RFQ PET accelerator, and currently run the Tevatron, have manufactured antiprotons for the last 7 years send the Giant NuMI Neutrino beam from Fermilab to Minnesota, so i have a clue.

Let us rise above our usu. cynical smirking condescencion and allow as how the loi polloi have a legit concern in this instance. .max

Re:Could you clarify your joke ?

[farnz]

"NMR" pronounced as three individual letters sounds similar to "enema". When hospital staff are underpaid, overworked, or just plain rushed, there's a high risk that they'll misidentify your need and you'll get something you didn't expect.

Re:It cant be any more dangerous

[Formica]

You mean like Switzerland?

Re:Property Values

[timster]

There's nothing legitimate about an obsession with "property values". Nobody has a right for their property to maintain a certain value. If land speculation is a critical part of your retirement plan, you might want to consider some less risky investments.

Re:Three Mile Island

[hotdiggitydawg]

At least this fella can stick a sign out the front... "Gone Fission"....

I'll show myself out.

I fear my neighbors too!

[AB3A]

I presume this guy has a reasonable "back yard." The article didn't say how large his property was. Assuming that Swank has room for a reasonable building in his back yard to house this endeavor, I don't see why this is any different than a garden shed or a garage.

With all those household chemicals, pesticides, sprayers, fertilizers and the like, one could easily mix them wrong and gas the neighborhood to death. The gasoline from the lawn mower might leak and cause an explosion from the fumes. The pesticides might get in to someone's well and poison them. The mulch pile might catch fire and smoulder...

The list is long. The point is these are every day hazards that people are comfortable with. This is all about feelings and very little about the actual hazard. It's not even about ignorance. People are woefully ignorant about the products they use in their houses every day.

I say hire a PR firm through the local hospital, buy the neighbors some doughnuts, and listen to the chatter. Clearly there are a few arrogant idiots who need to be identified and pushed back in to their caves^H^H^H^H^Hhomes.

Oblig. Futurama Quote

[NLG]

Farnsworth: "So what are you doing to protect my constitutional right to bear doomsday devices?"
NRA Guy: "Well, first off, we're gonna get rid of that three day waiting period for mad scientists."
Farnsworth: "Damn straight! Today the mad scientist can't get a doomsday device, tomorrow it's the mad grad student! Where will it end?!"
NRA Guy: "Amen, brother. I don't go anywhere without my mutated anthrax. For duck huntin'."

This story made me think of this. Am I the only one?

FUD from people who pronounce it nucular

[crovira]

I'm sorry if the word nuclear in anything scares some people but this cyclotron is for generating microscopic amounts of nucleotides for use in radiology.

He isn't some towel-head deforming the unborn in the name of some thing unspeakable or likely to blow up the neighborhood as the equipment is more likely to screw with people's TV signals than to leave a smokin' crater.

Next they'll riot and walk 'round with pitchforks in front of the dentist's because he's got an X-Ray machine. What?

This is too ignorant to be on /.

[grolaw]

Look folks, the amount of material produced would be very, very small - on the order of micro or pico curies of the DIAGNOSTIC isotope of fluorine - that has a 6 hour half-life!

Iodine 131 is another reagent common in treating thyroid cancers...

Molybdenum has an isotope with a half-life measured in seconds! Used in scintillation scans of soft tumors. Molybdenum has six stable isotopes and almost two dozen radioisotopes, the vast majority of which have half-lives measured in seconds. Mo-99 is used in sorpation generators to create Tc-99 for the medical nuclear isotope industry.

Finally, the cyclotron is not radioactive - it bombards the target element to create an isotope that is radioactive. I'd live next door to one - even in Anchorage (spent last August in that city) with the extrodinary earthquake & tsunamai risk - because the cyclotron could only release the very small amount of material that it was bombarding at the time of a catastrophic failure.

Also, have any of you folks noticed that AK is 5 time zones removed from the East Coast? You simply can't ship these short-lived isotopes.

Many hospitals have cyclotrons for that very reason! Others have manufacturers in the same city. Not the case in AK.

Re:Three Mile Island

[Flaming Babies]

Maybe in the U.S.
...but is that because of 3MI?

Why aren't new nuclear plants under construction in the U.S.?
Nuclear- and coal-powered plants are "baseload" facilities that operate continuously. Few
baseload power plants have been built in the United States since 1980 because much of the
country has excess electricity. Many utilities have only built "peaking" plants: small
facilities, generally fueled by oil or natural gas, that quickly can be turned on and off,
according to swings in demand.

More are now being planned.

Radiation phobia

[shadowj]

Most people hear the word radiation or nuclear and that's it for them, logic never comes into play.

Very true, unfortunately. That's exactly why the medical imaging technology called Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) was renamed. The technique is a variation on an earlier technology called Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR). Someone (probably one of the early MRI manufacturers, like GE) realized that the word "nuclear" would have doomed the product, so they changed the name... along the same lines as renaming "Chinese gooseberries" to "kiwi fruit".

Re:It cant be any more dangerous

[Liam Slider]

Easy access to guns lead to more gun use. Simple as that. This goes for police, civilians and criminals.

Sure, it's a lot easier for me to shoot the bastard who's shooting at me, if I have easy access to a gun. And easy access to a gun sure leads to a lot of gun usage during target practice, or out hunting.

I guess that if the US would try to improve on the huge loss of firearms to criminals every year, the NRA would freak out and go to Capitol Hill chaning the second amendment. I don't see anywhere that the second amendment calls for moronic storage of their firearms? I'm a bit scared when I read bout civilians storing 10+ firearmsin their home, just locking them in a closet. Here, that is punisable because you don't want to give the thieves an edge.

What about kitchen knives? Stabbings are far more common than shootings, even in this country. Way more common than shootings. And accidents with knives are far more statistically common than accidents with firearms. So why no cry to restrict knives, or to keep all civilian knives locked in heavily secure, expensive, vaults in the home? They are far more dangerous! And what if someone broke into your home, stole one of your knives, and killed someone with it! That would be your fault for not locking them up!

At least, it's a comparable argument to yours about guns.

And have you considered the economics? The poor have rights as well in this country, including the right to bear arms. Many poor families rely heavily on hunting in order to afford food. Hunting isn't just an entertainment for the upper classes here. Do you think these people can afford large, expensive, hidden vaults in their homes in which to store guns?

So Silly

[pyite]

Such a silly thing to oppose. There's a cyclotron a few hundred feet from me and I'm not frightened. I'm right next door to Rutgers Physics' Cyclotron. Maybe I'm not frightened because there is NO DANGER. *Sigh*

Re:Wont happen

[Liam Slider]

.1: Yes Anchorage is a pretty big city, still doesnt matter, the AF wouldnt let it happen. To much of a risk/threat of something going wrong.

Risk of what? That he's turn it into a death ray and demand, "ONE MILLION DOLLARS!?"

Re:Three Mile Island

[vertinox]

Three Mile Island was nearly catastrophic. And radiation did leave the plant during the accident.

If you look at it in a global view, I would suspect more people die of lung related diseases from coal and fossil fuel emmissions on a yearly basis than ever died of 3MI, Chernobyl, and all nuclear releated accidents put together.

I'm not supporting one over the other or even advocating nuclear power, but you have to remember sometimes that if a disaster or worse case scenario looks worse on paper or in people's minds or in actuality (like 3MI or Chernobyl), it is generally the more mundane that tends to be more unhealthy or causes more deaths.

Kind of like deaths related to cars vs deaths related to plane crashes but I'm breaking my own rules about analogies here (well this isn't internet related).

Re:Three Mile Island

[AKAImBatman]

Three Mile Island was nearly catastrophic.

It certainly wasn't good, and it definitely underscored the need for more modern designs in nuclear power plants. However, the plant *did* shut down like it was designed to do. And even if it hadn't, we still wouldn't have had another Chernobyl on our hands. Chernobyl was a poor design that was intentionally compromised for "testing". A very bad situation indeed.

The TMI design was sufficiently different that the materials wouldn't have been able to spread in the way that Chernobyl did. (And Chernobyl has been somewhat overstated, mind you.)

And radiation did leave the plant during the accident.

It's not the radiation you need to worry about. Radiation falls off according to the inverse square law. Unless you were standing next to the plant itself, you weren't in much danger. The *real* problem is the radioisotopes. If they escape the plant (which is what happened in Chernobyl's rather spectacular boiler explosion) they will make their way into the food and water supplies, and - by extension - into our bodies. Those radioisotopes would then proceed to give you cancer from the inside out.

I was a young child then, and I still remember the terror of living within the evacuation area. Nobody knew when they would need to jump in the car and leave their homes behind.

Which is the sad part about the lack of public education on everything nuclear. The plant was not a "bomb" waiting to destroy your neighborhood. Had TMI gone through a spectacular failure, you would have been able to evacuate without too much difficulty. The local resources would have been contaminated, but otherwise you would have been reasonably safe.

Keep in mind that the dozen or so people who died in Chernobyl were people at the plant. All other deaths (which have been greatly exaggerated by the media, mind you) were from radioisotope contamination. Thankfully, most everyone who experienced Thyriod problems were treated. (An impressive feat given the status of the Soviet government at that point.)

Don't get wrong. Nuclear technology can be a scary thing, and people DID die in Chernobyl. Had something worse happened, people might have died from TMI as well. But the amount of FUD surrounding these two incidents has caused massive (perhaps irreparable) damage to the development of safer technologies for controling nuclear power. Technologies, mind you, that could be useful in the next generation of power production. Even Fusion performed without proper safeguards is a very dangerous practice.

out of this world

[nazsco]

> "Probably the worst thing that could happen with small cyclotrons is that the operator might electrocute themselves."

Or send himself to another world!

Re:Three Mile Island

[weiserfireman]

I was a Nuclear Power Technician in the US Navy. The week I arrived in Idaho for prototype training at the Idaho National Engineering Laboratory, scientists and nuclear engineers arrived from around the world to recreate TMI. INEL has about 200 nuclear reactors of all sizes and ages. They were all built for research purposes. They had one that they felt was similiar enough to the TMI reactor for their purposes. They recreated the conditions of TMI and let the reactor go to see just how bad it could have gotten. The result? As predicted, the nuclear reaction stopped when all the water was gone, there was some core damage due to residual heat. But that was it. No catastrophic melt down. No failure of the primary reactor vessel, no breach of secondary shielding. No measurable (ie higher than natural background) radiation levels were ever measured outside the fence at Three Mile Island. I don't minimize the emotions of the people who lived in the area at the time. Their fears were real. But those fears were a result of purposely inadequate education of the general public about nuclear science by the Government. It is much easier to protect a "secret" if no one understands what you are talking about.

re: "most people" dumb argument and proof

[King_TJ]

The problem is not so much that "the general population is too dumb to be educated", but rather, the typical person you run into "on the street" is walking around with a head full of misconceptions and urban legends, rumors and half-truths.

If you don't yet believe that a good 50% or so of the "general population" has irrational fears of such things as "radiation" and "nuclear energy", randomly ask some of them about such things. (EG. "Hello sir. Would you say that the possibility of getting brain cancer from using your cellphone too often is a real concern or not?" ... or "Hi mam. What are your thoughts about potential health hazards of living in a house that's placed not too far away from some high power lines?")

To make things more complicated, a LOT of people make good money off sustaining these irrational/illogical fears. Sometimes, it's because they're part of a non-profit agency that needs this fear to ensure their continued existance. Other times, it's because some con-artists have a business selling useless devices that are only purchased by those who misunderstand the concepts. (You did buy your radiation blocking cell-phone sticker thingie off eBay, right?)

Ahh... My Hometown...

[moorley]

I'm still getting used to living in the states, but there are times I do miss Anchorage. The folks there are... unique ;-)

West Anchorage Highschool was a place of many tales as well. Underground bunkers that students from all over the district would try to sneak into the ductwork and access ways to go see. I even remember seeing a bunch of them down through an access plate in Junior Hall a good 20 feet down. Underground newspapers and pranks. But that's another tale.

If you ever get the chance to visit Anchorage it's a fun town. Nothing like living at the biggest town at the tip of the Western United States expansion. I wouldn't trade my youth there for anything.

Inventors: Use your most powerfull ally:

[Hosiah]

Human stupidity. DON'T TELL THEM that you're building this scientific thing with lots of scary big words in it. Tell them it's a shed for your gardening tools. Hell, it's Canada, tell them you're growing pot.

Even when a young lad, I heeded it well: "An ounce of keeping your mouth shut beats a ton of explanation." That's saved my ass - in every imaginable context.

Folks who never even *took* science in jr. high

[whitroth]

... or maybe slept through it in elementary school. Hell, my *high* *school* had a cyclotron, and this was the early-to-mid sixties. (If you're wondering, Central High, in Philly.)

But that's like the idiot article that a friend passed along to me, who's worried about the plutonium-powered RTG on the Pluto mission "polluting space with radioactivity" (I'm not making this up!)

                mark

Re:This is too ignorant to be on /.

[Sylvius]

While I generally agree with your point, a lot of the details are really, really wrong:

The fluorine isotope you mentioned (F-18) can be made on a cyclotron, but has a half-life of 108 minutes, not 6 hours.

Iodine 131 is used to treat thyroid cancer, but is generally a waste product of nuclear reactors, not made with a cyclotron and it has an 8 day halflife. It can be volatilized and cause thyroid damage and cancer induction (think people hundreds of miles downwind of Chernobyl).

Molybdenum (again, reactor byproduct, not cyclotron made), decays into Technecium-99m, which is used in nuclear medicine scintillation studies, but has a half-life of 6 horus.

Finally, the cyclotron is not radioactive, you are correct, but after a while, the shielding, etc, is bombarded with so many particles that it itself can become radioactive (the inner surfaces). It's still perfectly safe to be outside the shielding, but removing the shielding down the road can be a pain.

Overall, if he were doing it correctly, I'd say it's probably perfectly safe for his neighbors. However, if he plans to run it as a production cyclotron for diagnostic imaging, he should be doing it the right way and putting it someplace zoned for commercial use and with adequate electrical infrastructure.

Re:Three Mile Island

[Andy Dodd]

"And radiation did leave the plant during the accident."

OH MY GOD! TRACE AMOUNTS OF RADIATION WERE RELEASED!

SHUT DOWN THE COAL-FIRED PLANTS NOW!

Yes, coal-fired plants do release radioactive materials into the atmosphere. There's one plant in Utah that dumps more radioactive material into the atmosphere in a single day than the TMI accident. (This is due to trace amounts of uranium in the coal burned by the plant.) Oh, let's not forget that in addition to being radioactive, the uranium that the aforementioned coal plant releases is chemically toxic too, as opposed to the krypton released by TMI which is chemically inert and hence there is no way for it to bind itself to anything in the body. Let's not forget all the other chemical nastiness in the emissions from coal plants.

According to http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact -sheets/3mile-isle.html ,the average dose to people nearby was 1 millirem. That's 1/6th of the dose from a full set of chest x-rays and less than 1% of yearly exposure to background radiation.

In short, coal-fired plants do more damage to the environment each day than the worst nuclear accident in U.S. history.

Chernobyl does not count here, because it could not have happened in a U.S. power reactor, here are a few reasons why:
U.S. power reactors are fully water-moderated. If the water boils off, the core will likely melt, but the reaction will begin slowing down because the water is needed for the reaction to continue. Chernobyl, on the other hand, was graphite moderated and hence the reaction could continue even when water boiled off.

U.S. power reactors don't contain large amounts of superheated flammable substances in their core. The initial incident at Chernobyl was a steam explosion that wouldn't have been bad if not for the fact that it exposed the superheated radioactive graphite in the core to air, which immediately began burning violently, dispersing the core's contents into the atmosphere.

Operators of U.S. power reactors don't disable all of their reactor's safety systems in order to run dangerous experiments. (Chernobyl's reactor should have scrammed itself long before the accident occurred, but the operators intentially disabled all of the reactor's safety systems.)

They have no clue.

[doit3d]

I work in medicine. A cyclotron is just simply a big circular magnet. Electrocution from the power driving the magnets is the most dangerous thing possible, IMHO. Sheilding in the area where the drugs are bombarded by the machine to create the isotopes is quite adequate. Handeling procedures in place for these drugs and machines used in their production by the FDA, NRC, & other medical oversite organizations is very extensive. Here are just a few drugs off the top of my head that are used commonly that have short useful working span: Technetium-99m has a half-life of 6 hours. Fludeoxyglucose has a half-life of 109.8 minutes. C-11 methionine has a half-life of 20 minutes. ...and the list goes on. Many drugs used in diagnosis & treatment of cancers & other ailments require an on-site cyclotron because of the short half-life. It is not possibly to make these drugs in the lower states & fly them to Alaska in a timely mannor for them to be effective for dianosis and/or treatment. What this gentelman wants to do is needed & I commend him for trying to help others.The people who are against him building this thing are not very well informed.

Re:They have no clue.

[jafiwam]

There's a difference between arguing "need" and "needs to be here".

The guy can do that in a comercial park somewhere in Anchorage rather than a residential neighborhood.

Problem solved.

Re:They have no clue.

[clnelson]

The disaggreement isn't just about the cyclotron (ok a lot of it's about the cyclotron). It's also the fact that the business model isn't appropriate for a residential area. This guy is right in the middle of the neighborhood and he has to rush his stuff to the hospital. He should be setting up in a small office near the three major hospitals in Anchorage (all located whithin 15 blocks or so of each other --Providence, Regional, and the Alaska Native Health Center). But instead he's in a downtown residential neighborhood that's two or three school zones away from the hospitals through cross town rush hour traffic. It just isn't a good idea. The zoning wouldn't allow him to set up a barber shop, I don't see why they can't refuse him his medical production and courier business.

Re:They have no clue.

[AK Marc]

For medical use, the best place to set it up would be on the UAA campus. Get the state to pay for it for research and educational purposes, then let the hospitals use it for making such drugs. UAA is central to all the hospitals (well, Alaska Regional is farther than the other two, but not unreasonably far), has available land, isn't in a residential area, and would benefit from the new research opportunities.

And it is certainly more reasonable than his home, which as of 1/1/2005 was on 10th, still considered part of downtown (and a small lot of 7000 sq ft).

Re:Three Mile Island

[AKAImBatman]

... so your saying little radiation got out, just radioisotopes? Of course, radioisotopes are not at all radioactive and don't emit any form of dangerous radiation at all do they

You have missed my point, sir. My point was that leaking radiation is not a serious danger to the general populace. Had radioisotopes leaked, THAT would have been a serious danger.

Where did the OP say bomb?? All he talked about was the fear of having to leave ones home without notice never to return... which is pretty horriffic for anyone

Perhaps the OP did mean that he was afraid of an orderly evacuation of the area due to contamination. More likely, (especially given his point about "radiation leaking") he and others were scared that the plant would have effects similar to a bomb. It was quite common at that time (and even today, I'm afraid) to believe that nuclear power plants can produce effects similar to a nuclear weapon. i.e. The two main concerns are that the plant will suffer a nuclear detonation or that the plant will produce a constant stream of radiation that will kill everything in the area.

Now if the OP wishes to correct me and tell me you are correct, that is fine. But in the meantime I must assume he is referring to the perceived effects of a nuclear power plant.

Liberals get what they asked for & don't like

[ccmay]

I've been thinking: it's no secret that the blue states subsidize the red states with tax dollars.

And so they should, to the good bleeding-heart liberal who favors progressive taxation and government handouts for the less fortunate. Compare the average yearly incomes in the different states and you will see what I mean.

According to liberal dogma, the wealthy limousine liberal in Connecticut ought to be proud and happy that the government will take money from him and give it to the poor white trash living in a Mississippi trailer park.

Funny how fast that left wing sympathy for the downtrodden vanishes, when the benefits go to stubborn rednecks that don't reward their patrons with votes!

-ccm

Re:Three Mile Island

[Tesen]

I wonder if the same residents know that if they own a CRT they already have a small Particle Accelerator in their houses already! Oh no! We must outlaw TV's now!

Tes

Cellphones

[Cro Magnon]

Cell phones can't cause cancer - it's not the right type of radiation. Microwave electromagnetic radiation can cause damage in one way (heating), and that requires far higher power levels than any cell phone to have any effect whatsoever on a human body.

I don't know about cancer, but I've seen evidence that cellphones fry your brain, based on the extreme stupidity of the users.

Admittedly, I never saw them before they got their phones.

El Cerrito cyclotron

[602]

In 1948, four high schools students in California built a cyclotron. Here (scroll down a ways) is the article from Physics Today about it. There was a really nice writeup about it in Scientific American's Amateur Scientist column. There was also a Nov 2004 slashdot thread on homebrew cyclotroning.

No big deal

[loose_cannon_gamer]

I don't know what the big deal is. I watched a couple of documentaries back in the 80's about guys who ran around with unlicensed nuclear accelerators on their backs, and it was fine. They mentioned something about 'total protonic reversal', but even when they did that intentionally, it didn't seem like a big deal. And that was New York, not the middle of nowhere, Alaska.