Space Spiders to Assemble Satellites in Orbit

Grubby Games writes "New Scientist reports that a JAXA mission to determine whether spider-like robots could construct complex structures in space is set to launch in January 2006. The spider bots could build large structures by crawling over a 'web' released from a larger spacecraft. The engineers behind the project hope the robots will eventually be used to construct colossal solar panels for satellites that will transmit solar energy back to Earth."

Comments

Obviously

[kadathseeker]

I for one welcome our new robotic spider overlords. Really, that is cool.

AJAX in Space!

[snevig]

oh wait...

Re:AJAX in Space!

[nmoog]

Yeah, this is web2.0 gone mad.

Its too bad its solar, not nuclear...

[aapold]

They tell us that nuclear stuff in space would be dangerous. Irresponsible.

But if these spider robots were nuclear powered, they'd have greater power.

And with greater power comes greater responsibility.

The Replicators!

[metlin]

OMG! The Replicators are here.

You bastards, you have no idea what you are letting loose on the world. :-\

They'd make an artifical Sam Carter, and have her all for themselves. :-(

This is just one of many...

[Chris Bradshaw]

I'm suprised how little publicity JAXA gets (with the exception of Hayabusa). There are some very interesting, projects currently in progress. It's worth checking out...

http://www.isas.jaxa.jp/e/index.shtml

Suborbital research and private spaceflight

[FleaPlus]

From the article: The satellite will be deployed from a rocket on a sub-orbital trajectory. This means scientists will have only 10 minutes of microgravity in which to perform their tests before the craft starts its descent back to Earth and eventually burns up in the atmosphere.

I find it interesting that this research is being done with a suborbital launcher. People often dismiss ventures like SpaceShipOne and Virgin Galactic because they aren't orbital, but perhaps the cost efficiencies of private ventures could help suborbital space research?

Does anyone have an idea of how much suborbital launches currently cost, and how this compares to Virgin Galactic's prices? Of course, one would likely need to add some sort of satellite deployment mechanism...

it's about damn time...but still too soon

[mr_matticus]

Now here's a technology we should all be able to get behind. By building in orbit, we can make spacecraft much larger and more sophisticated, from probes and satellites to huge passenger liners (if we have anywhere to go). We can make all sorts of things better and cheaper--optical lenses, crystals, precious gems, you name it. But it's not the incentives or the ability that will keep this from happening.

No, it's the problem of who owns space. Who collects taxes for orbital manufacturing? Who pays for the infrastructure to shuttle things back and forth from orbit? The ambitious and egalitarian notions that space is for all of mankind is exactly right; the problem is that we haven't progressed far enough on the ground to deal with that reality. Entering space was supposed to promote the idea that we're all on the same little rock together and that we have to face the much bigger galaxy on a united front, as citizens of the same planet. But it just hasn't happened.

Despite the benefits, I don't think we're ready for the consequences yet. Just because we've advanced enough so we can do a thing doesn't mean we should do that thing.

Re:it's about damn time...but still too soon

[R3d M3rcury]

Ridiculous.

"No, it's the problem of who owns space."

I'm pretty sure this has been decided already. No one owns space. People can own things within space, but you can't say "This orbit is mine. Go find another one." However, to use the Antarctica analogy, people can own things within the space. There are various research stations owned by governments on Antarctica. They don't own the land, but they do own the station.

"Who collects taxes for orbital manufacturing?"

I am not an accountant, but I'm not sure that there are taxes on manufacturing. I think you can make whatever you want tax-free. However, when you try to sell it, you have pay sales and/or import taxes and such to the area in which you sell it. So, no, I don't have to pay any taxes on crystals I build in orbit anymore than I would have to pay taxes on go-carts I build on the ground.

Also, I think there are official rules which talk about how high a country's airspace goes. Thus, a satellite flying over some country does not enter it's airspace. So, no, just because my orbital factory goes over your country does not mean you get to collect taxes.

There are only taxes when I go to sell the thing. And those would be collected based upon where I try to sell it. Just like they are now.

Now, obviously, if I'm an American and I build something in orbit, would the US Government charge me an import tax? I don't know. But the worst-case scenario would be that I would pay taxes just like if I was an American company and I had my computers built in Taiwan and shipped here to be sold. Does Apple pay taxes on iBooks built overseas and shipped to the US? Any accountants out there?

"Who pays for the infrastructure to shuttle things back and forth from orbit?"

Anybody who wants to, I suppose. Would a government do it? Perhaps, if the people feel this is worthwhile (or, for the cynics, if enough companies want to do this to pay off the government). Otherwise, it would be up to private industry.

Use the crystal example. I want to make crystals in orbit. I suppose I will need a factory. I will need some way to get the raw materials up there. I will need some way to get the crystals down here. I might be able to build an automated rocket or some sort of ground controlled system to do this. I may try to get a government to subsidize this because I'm doing really cool R&D. Or I may be able to do it cheap enough that I don't need a government subsidy. Since it costs a lot of money to lift something up there, I might try to build a combination raw materials deliverer and crystal pick-upper. I'd probably need to sit down and figure out how many crystals I need to make for this to be worthwhile--obviously, spending $50,000 to go up and pick up one crystal isn't worthwhile, but picking up 50,000 crystals would be. Of course, how much raw material can I haul up and how many crystals do I get out of the raw material, etc., etc. would come into play, too. I'm sure some computer program could figure out how often to go into orbit to make it cost-effective.

"The ambitious and egalitarian notions that space is for all of mankind is exactly right; [...] Entering space was supposed to promote the idea that we're all on the same little rock together and that we have to face the much bigger galaxy on a united front, as citizens of the same planet. But it just hasn't happened. Despite the benefits, I don't think we're ready for the consequences yet."

Hey, I like Star Trek as much as the next guy. But it's a TV show. It's not real.

Again, I don't see what the issue is. Are you saying that if I built an orbital crystal factory, I should be concerned about someone shooting it down? About me starting a war on the ground over it?

Heck, the US and the former Soviet Union spent years building satellites to spy on sensitive military installations. Yet nobody shot a spy satellite down. And no wars were started over spy satellites going over other people's countries.

Or is this just FUD? "Ooh! Don't do that! Something bad might happen! I don't know what, but it might. Better stay up here in the trees where it's safe..."

Re:it's about damn time...but still too soon

[mr_matticus]

"I'm pretty sure this has been decided already. No one owns space. People can own things within space, but you can't say "This orbit is mine. Go find another one." However, to use the Antarctica analogy, people can own things within the space. There are various research stations owned by governments on Antarctica. They don't own the land, but they do own the station."

That's just the thing, though. How long do you think it would stay that way? There are only so many geosynchronous orbital points, and there are only so many optimal flight paths, and who gets priority? Communications satellites, space factories? Who cleans up all renegade debris that endangers it all? As another commenter said, right now it's mostly US taxpayers. The problems can be solved, but there will definitely be a land grab, international agreement or not, because there's no effective mechanism for enforcement. What about when the things we build in orbit start taking us to the moon and to Mars? Do you honestly think there won't be wars over raw materials, prime locations, and everything else? My point is that we haven't solved the problems of living together in a relatively well-known and safe environment. If we can't handle that, how are we ever going to handle more dangerous and isolated conditions?

I am not an accountant, but I'm not sure that there are taxes on manufacturing. I think you can make whatever you want tax-free.

I didn't mean taxes on the act of manufacturing. My wording wasn't clear, I admit. I meant, who regulates the finances of orbital companies and who taxes the transport back and forth from space? There's a tremendous infrastructure that modern society needs to have in place. Then there's the current matter of airspace. That would change IMMEDIATELY once NGOs started bopping around in orbit. Right now everything's fine, because there aren't many countries with the capability and beyond military applications (which you can't control), everything in orbit is benign and also directly accountable to a major government. When you have corporate products in space, everything changes.

Your answer of "whoever wants to" for the infrastructure is very insightful. It'll never work that way. If the US government does it, it'll cost way more than it needs to and taxpayers will whine the entire time. If private interests do it, they'll turn into cell phone companies, charging fees for access and surcharges for everything under the sun. The fact that we don't have answers to any of these questions is the telling part.

Or is this just FUD? "Ooh! Don't do that! Something bad might happen! I don't know what, but it might. Better stay up here in the trees where it's safe..."

No, not FUD, and not an attempt to say that this idea is bad...in fact, my original comment talks about some of its immense potential. I'm only saying that it's not time yet, and that rushing in before there are laws and rules and international agreement will just repeat what has happened every other time in our history: war, bloodshed, and exploitation. There's going to be conflict regardless, but we should at least be responsible enough to minimize it before we dive in blindfolded.

Space Program or Web Services?

[justinchudgar]

It is scaring me that press releases from NASA sounds just about like press releases from IBM. AJAX or JAXA? XML, eXtensible Markup Language, or LMX, Lunar Mission '10? I'm confused and minding it less and less.

Re:nice idea but...

[nametaken]

Naw, its for real. I've seen this episode.

Eventually the spiders turn into humanoid form, and one wants to all get it on with Carter, which is totally messed up... and then Jack totally blows them up.

Ok, I watch too much TV.

Hats off to you, Japan

[ducati999]

Thanks again, Japan, for making things horrendously more complicated than they need to be. Spiders??? So many moving parts...

Re:Armageddon... for solar panels

[ceoyoyo]

It'll get hit constantly... mostly be the junk we've put in orbit. So they'll have to repair little holes. But solar panels work just fine with little holes punched through them.

Things don't tend to fall straight into the sun either -- they travel in orbits. Extremely elliptical orbits might see a fairly large cross section of this thing, but to anything on a more or less circular orbit it's going to be very, very thin.

Re:nice idea but...

[drwho]

Nah, it's alright, because they communicate using WiFi, and we can jam that no problem. That's what the big thing on Takara is -- a giant wifi amplifier - basically a really large microwave oven. SO no worry about the spiders replicators getting outta control. And we have the ass-guard to back us up.

I actually don't watch it on tv. I use bittorent to download the episodes. Is this any better?

Re:Armageddon... for solar panels

[ceoyoyo]

I don't know if anyone's done the calculations. Better fix that!

Photon pressure force:

F = PA/c

At 1 AU from the sun, P=1400 watts/m^2. For a 1km^2 collector we have A = 1*(1000*1000) = 1 million m^2.

So F = (1400)*1x10^6/3.00x10^8
F = 4.7N

4.7N is almost enough to hold half a kilogram up on the surface of Earth. Divert a bit of the power to some ion thrusters, and you should be fine. You might have to shuttle up some reaction mass every few years, but that mass would be REALLY insignificant compared to the mass of the array itself.

The mass of the array is irrelevant for countering the solar sail effect. You're not trying to accelerate it, you're trying to STOP it from accelerating, so you just have to counter the force being applied to it, which is the same regardless of the mass of the array.

Rigidity shouldn't be a problem -- any sort of solid structure shouldn't have a problem withstanding tiny forces like that.

I for one...

[superultra]

welcome our new "I For One..." overlords, who will no doubt reveal themselves in this thread many times over.

Furoshiki Satellite

[Anonymous Coward]

Research on Large Membrane Furoshiki Satellite

FYI:
Furoshiki is traditional wrapping-cloth in Japan.
Often, old women use Furoshiki as a substitute of bag.
For example, when carrying a watermelon, Furoshiki is used as follows.
Suika-zustumi

Re:Novelty

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno. People say that mining and manufacturing certain things in space are where the money is at. I have this idea that money is smart...maybe intelligent risk is what is smart. I doubt anybody would want to live in a place like space for a long time. So I think building robots, or concepts of robots right now, to do major work in space is where things are going. I think NASA said what it was about when they decided to send robots where humans couldn't really afford to go and got sizable scientific gains. Who cares about the spiders as long as we can start to see the best way to bring the wealth back home. I'm almost crazy enough to say that everything might get better if we can expand the amount of wealth we all share. Nevermind.

And...

[DenDave]

Ziggy played guitar,
jamming good with Wired and Geeky,
The Spiders from Mars....

hmmm deus?

[sam_paris]

Spider bots??

Anyone else thinking deus ex?... *sigh* God I loved that game..

Re:Armageddon... for solar panels

[Nuffsaid]

Far from being an expert in orbital dynamics, I suspect that solar radiation would accelerate this structure while it's on one half of its orbit, and slow it down it when it's on the other half. Shouldn't the forces compensate? Or maybe it would result in an orbit more and more elliptical, until it intersecates Earth's athmosphere?

will they obey robots.txt ?

[tod_miller]

Who knew that Asimovs laws would end up being 'INDEX, NOFOLLOW'.

tsk.

Oooooooooh I get it now...

Re:Hmm

[FireFury03]

So let me guess we are going to have a 50ft thick cable floating from earth where these solar panels are located in space

No - the solar array sits in geosync orbit and transmits the collected energy back to a rectenna array on Earth as microwaves using a phased array. This is a pretty safe idea - you transmit a pilot microwave signal from Earth up to the satellite and the phased array on the satellite then uses the wave fronts of that pilot signal to synchronise the wavefronts transmitted by the phased array, so the energy will always be focussed on the source of the pilot beam. If the pilot beam stops transmitting then the phased array on the satellite will simply defocus the energy.

The rectenna array on Earth would also allow sunlight pass through it so it's even possible to use the land under it for growing crops or grazing animals, and in geosync orbit the satellite is exposed to the sun almost all the time.

Previous suggestions for putting large satellites like these in orbit have been to construct them on the moon from local materials - the moon's gravity is so low that you can launch them with a linear mass driver, no rockets required.

IMHO, this technology should be taken seriously to meet our long term energy needs - in the short term I can see fission being a good energy source but over the next 50 or so years I think fusion and orbital solar platforms are the best plan. Sadly, noone seems to want to get their finger out and spend money on this stuff until it's too late and we _have_ to.

Suborbital != 'in orbit'

[nietsch]

The test is being done with a suborbital sounding rocket, they are not going into orbit. The test will experience weightlessness for 10 minutes and then tumble back to earth.
They have no budget for orbital tests and the submitter could have known that if he read/researched his own story.

Re:Hahah Excellent!

[Mesinjah]

All hail the spidersbots! A new day dawns. Dream on... More garbage in our orbits to avoid hitting in the future.