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The History of Videogame Lawsuits
AsiNisiMasa writes "1UP is running an interesting piece detailing the history of lawsuits in the gaming industry. It reveals a bit about Nintendo's old strong-arm tactics, the origin of the third party developer, Electronic Art's employee abuse, and of course plenty of violent games being 'linked' to violent behavior. Jack Thompson gets an entire page to himself." From the article: "To show their appreciation, Atari took Activision to court, claiming that the company didn't have the right to develop Atari games. Atari lost, and more companies decided to follow in Activision's footsteps, creating the concept of third-party developers. It was a defining moment for video games."
Let's capitalize on all these video game lawsuits and design an entirely new game based on them: You're playing as one of the major game companies, and you have to do as many sneaky under-handed things as you possibly can before the sharks – er, lawyers representing players, EA employees, and concerned parents – catch up with you!
Creative misinterpretation is your friend.
Infogrames also made the Alone In The Dark Games. At least the first 2 or 3, when they were really good. Every game production company has their good games, and their bad games.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Jack Thompson gets an entire page to himself.
That's good. Just what the guy needs. More notoriety and attention.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
Atari won a lawsuit against Sega in the mid-90s. I think it had to do with the fact that Atari had a copyright on certain types of scrolling backgrounds in games. Sega used a lot of scrolling backgrounds in their late 80s / early 90s games.
The Tramiels used the 90+ million dollars they won to keep Atari afloat until '96.
Sure, Windows PCs dominate the market. But so do cheap toupees.
They skim over the fact that when KC Munchkin lost to PacMan, there were dozens of other copycat games that were suddenly too risky to market, which contributed to the industrywide 'cold spell'.
as to how once nintendo beat off 3rd party developers with a stick, and now would love to see some 3rd party support, eh? eh? eh, nintendo?
MORTAR COMBAT!
Of course, as everyone knows, Space Invaders is best played on the Mac :-)
What about Maxis?? Can't think of a single bad game they've produced!
Atari took no precautions to prevent third party games. The judge ruled that Atari didn't have a legal leg to stand on.
Nintendo took a look at the case and added a patented algorithm to their systems called the "Lockout Chip". Atari asked the patent office for the info on the lockout chip so that they could reproduce it without paying Nintendo royalties. Nintendo sued on patent infringment and won.
Nintendo was WAY more cut-throat than Atari ever was. Atari was just... bumbling.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Sim earth?
Sim live?
Sim everything besides -city?
HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
I can, The Sims (and the ten million expansions to it) I hate those games.
Did you happen to read anything about the Hot Coffee bit? That was fairly PC-centric.
Oh, and what about section on Columbine and Doom? Or did they play some console version of Doom?
To be fair, it was console-centric, but that's becuase most lawsuits were...well...console-centric.
Would you kindly mod me +1 insightful?
"Sim everything besides -city?"
Are you forgetting about The Sims???? One of the best selling games of all time.
I got nothin'
As someone who has personally been sued by a gaming company over intelectual property, i would say that gameing companies tend to be WAY overprotective of their intelectual property... http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/02/10/ 0347222&tid=211&tid=123
I owned and operated a website devoted to hacking and modding console games such as Soul Calibur 2 and Dead or Alive. These mods did nothing but add to the longevity of their games.
It doesn't take much to muscle someone around with our court system and ridiculous digital copyright laws... Chances are if you don't have enough money to fight back (like myself, being a college student) they will get their way regardless of weather or not they have a legitimate case against you.
-cypher35 [ninjazombie.net]
Scientology-Online:
Buy This and We'll Sue You
David Crane was on "The Screen Savers" when Tech TV existed and mentioned that Activision settled with Atari, and paid royalties to Atari on every cartridge.
Coleco also paid royalties on their VCS emulator / expansion module. Atari made tons of money off of the bad games since they got a royalty from everyone basically. The myth got started because the settlements were non-disclosed. Atari was the first collectors of licesenses and they didn't care how bad the games were as long as they got their cut. And Atari had some of the most tennacious lawyers in the business. A month wouldn't go by before some lawsuit was announced from Atari-Warner.
What - you think Atari became as large as they did so fast because of sales of Pac Man and ET?
He also attempted to link Rockstar's Manhunt and the killing of British teen Stefan Pakeerah by his 17-year-old friend, Warren LeBlanc. The courts denied that the game was a factor, seeing as the game was owned by the victim, not the killer. Thompson later told IGN that the British Tabloids fabricated his involvement with the case.
So was Thompson actually involved in the case or no?
If only something like this would happen to Konami, instead making their overly borad patent on the DDR game pad design less valid so that there can be some real competition in the dance simulation game genre instead of it being an unsteady (legal-wise) battle bwteeen In the Groove, Dance DanceRevolution, and Pump it Up.
If you believe in privacy, and believe you have "nothing to hide" at the same time, you're a goddammed idiot
This whole article reads like a 6th grade book report on the Steven Kent book.
1 34956685/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-3046164-8793630?n =507846&s=books&v=glance
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0761536434/qid=1
Get the book, it's a better read and a lot more detailed.
It is rare to see an article devoted to decades of lawsuits seriously covering this subject matter in such an enjoyable, highly readable and appropriately tongue-in-cheek way.
Bear that bookmark in mind as one piece to submit on upcoming calls for contenders to the crown of "online journalism of the year" awards...
For example they missed Electronic Arts vs. Ultima Online smurfs lawsuit. Whole reason we don't get NA volunteers for mmorpgs nowadays. How about case where Sony get suied over suicide of some EQ catass?
We never said Nintendo has never done evil, we just ask that if Sony and Microsoft are going to do evil they not set the carpet on fire in the process
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
Doom was available for the Sega 32X and, later, the Super NES.
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
An interesting article, but seems to be missing a ton of research.
That article completely reversed the actual story on the Nintendo vs. Blockbuster lawsuit. Nintendo won part of their case against Blockbuster for copyright infringement because Blockbuster was handing out photocopied manuals with the games. After the lawsuit, BBV could only either hand out the original manual (which were often never returned or damaged) or a short generic instruction sheet.
The article also completely skips some of the more important lawsuits. Atari v Coleco (the mother of all emulation lawsuits), Nintendo v Prima (game maps ruled not copyright infringment), Nintendo v Color Dreams (an interesting case of clean-room reverse engineering), Sega v Accolade (another case of working around a lockout), Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft vs. Lik Sang (mod chips and flash carts), Sony vs. Bleem! (more emulation fun), and doesn't even begin to address the huge effects the DMCA had on the whole industry.
/zing!
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Nintendo lost the lawsuit, however; the only thing Blockbuster could be nailed for was including original, copyrighted instruction booklets with their rented games. Blockbuster simply switched over to photocopied booklets, or handed out a card that explained the game's basic premise and controls to the player. Despite threats to rental kiosks and retailers who sold multiple copies of certain games, video game rentals were free to prosper, and still do.
I'd like an explanation of this. How is the inclusion of the booklet a no-no while the game isn't? The booklet is just as copyrighted as the game.
"But then Nintendo took Atari to court for creating third-party games for the NES and somehow got the opposite result. I do wish there were penalties for paying off judges in the United States."
Different Atari. The Atari that took Activision to court (mainly because Activision was made up of ex-Atari programmers whose games had mainly been coded on "Company" aka Atari time before they left). That was the unified Atari Inc. which encompassed both the arcade division and the consumer (home videogames and computers) divisions. Post-1984 Atari was split into two different companies when Warner sold out to try to stop Rupert Murdoch (who later bought Fox) from taking over Warner. The consumer division became Atari Corp., owned by Jack Tramiel (well, 75% owned by them and 25% by Warner, later known as TimeWarner), and the arcade division called Atari Games Corporation (75% owned by Namco of Japan and 25% by Warner). Atari Games Corp. owned the rights to the name "Atari" for arcades only; Atari Corp. controlled the rights to the brand for home videogames and computers. Thus when Atari Games wanted to get into the home gaming business, they named their division "Tengen" and signed up to become an NES licensee. They then reverse engineered the NES authorization chip and tried to be an independent third party developer because they claimed Nintendo shorted them authorized cartridges to the benefit of Nintendo's other favored third party developers. TimeWarner jumped back in and bought out Namco, and then proceeded to try to get Atari Games and Atari Corp. to work together (and they tried reacquiring Atari Corp. too) which led to the cross licensing of post-1984 Atari Games Corp. arcade titles which then appeared for the Atari Lynx game system. Atari Games Corp. sued Nintendo for monopolizing the home videogame industry in America (which they did) based upon the exclusive contracts regarding supplying authorized cartridges whereas Atari Corp. sued Nintendo on antitrust grounds for prohibiting the NES licensees from porting their titles to non-Nintendo game systems (such as the Atari 7800, the Sega Master System, and the NEC TurboGrafx-16). Somehow Atari Corp. lost their side of the case, and then proceeded to hit Nintendo upside their heads over patent infringement and they settled for nearly $200 million.
Funny how modern day Nintendo fanbois forget how vile Nintendo conducted its business back in the mid 80s to the early 90s...and its also helps to remember that once Nintendo was essentially forced to clean up its act, it lost its industry dominance to first Sega, and then Sony.
As for Atari, its the name of Infogrames American division. It is comprised of all of the American interests of Infogrames as well as the properties that Hasbro Interactive had acquired before selling out to Infogrames (including the brand, titles, and intellectual property of the former Atari Corp as of 1996). The Atari Games Corp. was sold off to WMS Industries in 1996/97 when TimeWarner rejected a bid by Nolan (King Pong, founder of Atari) Bushnell to take over the company. WMS spun off its videogame interests (the former Williams and Bally-Midway arcade companies and the formerly TradeWest home game company) into what is now known as Midway Games. Which is why you'll see such (post-1984) Atari specific classic arcade games such as "Gauntlet" comprised (and or updated) in Midway's Greatest Hits titles even though they weren't Midway titles back in the day...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
"Atari took no precautions to prevent third party games. The judge ruled that Atari didn't have a legal leg to stand on."
That's because there was no such thing as a third party video game company when the Atari 2600 VCS originally debuted in 1977. The renegade Atari employees who created Activision founded the third-party industry. The same industry that pretty much caused the 1982-84 videogame industry collapse that ruined Atari which it never truly recovered from which is why "carpet-bagging" companies like Sony and Microsoft now control the industry. Nintendo put a lock-out chip in the NES to prevent games like *Custer's Revenge* from ever appearing on their console. They wanted to restrict the third parties to ensure quality. At least that's what they told the public; the monopoly power was an alleged side-effect of that behavior. It should be remembered that Atari gained a 90% controlling interest in the earlier gaming industry without such tactics.
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
Sega never really overtook Nintendo, the Mega Drive lost against the SNES in most territories.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Hey, they very well could set the carpet on fire with the heat that thing is creating!!
"Now from MicroShaft!! It plays games! It sets flames!! XBox360!" - Board meeting foiled marketing pitch. (The guy who pitched this was immediately fired (bad pun), thrown into the street and chairs were tossed at him. Film at 11.)
"I love lamp."
That's because there was no such thing as a third party video game company when the Atari 2600 VCS originally debuted in 1977.
It's even more complex than that. The VCS was only intended to play the dozen or so games released at launch. The idea of a truely generic console hadn't entered anyone's mind yet. Activision was one of the driving forces behind the idea that the VCS could be used generically.
he renegade Atari employees who created Activision founded the third-party industry. The same industry that pretty much caused the 1982-84 videogame industry collapse that ruined Atari which it never truly recovered from which is why "carpet-bagging" companies like Sony and Microsoft now control the industry.
Atari killed Atari. Sure, they were making a pretty penny off the VCS, but they assumed the revenue and continuously overspent. The market crash thus creamed Atari, but didn't kill them. Atari still released the 7800 post-crash, but wasn't able to convince the market to pick it. Further mis-management caused Atari to miss the boat on licensing the Nintendo, causing them to get their asses handed to them on a plate in the market.
Sony gained control of the market much later thanks to a screwup by Nintendo which left Sony with Nintendo's next-gen hardware. (i.e. The Playstation) Microsoft just forced their way into the market, and hasn't had anywhere near the success as they'd have people believe.
Nintendo put a lock-out chip in the NES to prevent games like *Custer's Revenge* from ever appearing on their console.
That's only half the story. Nintendo definitely didn't want another Custer's Revenge (which didn't stop a few from coming along anyway), but they realized that the real problem was the glut of games. Quality suffered because there was no incentive to produce a good seller. So Nintendo restricted licensees to only 5 games per year. This restriction was mostly effective, and didn't produce problems similar to the crash of '83 until late into the Nintendo's life. The fight with the Genesis and the release of the Super Nintendo both headed off another crash.
It should be remembered that Atari gained a 90% controlling interest in the earlier gaming industry without such tactics.
Atari had competition from the Channel F (VES) before it ever released the 2600. However, the market was still fresh at the time, and the two consoles didn't directly compete like consoles do today. (Remember, the Atari 2600 was created only for a few games. It wasn't intended to be generic.) The Video Game crash of 1977, however, caused the Channel F to exit the market, leaving Atari with a 100% market share. That share would later be challenged by the more expensive Intellivision and Colecovision, but those two consoles would suffer heavily in the '83 market crash, again giving Atari the lead.
The 7800, BTW, also had a lockout system to prevent a situation like the '83 crash.
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Reminds me of the game 'The Great Giana Sisters'. The biggest selling game that was never officially released. :)
I seem to remember that the game was released for the C64 and the Amiga, then pulled back like a week later from the shelves since Nintendo threatend a lawsuit. If I'm not mistaked it was sold in some countries, not sure which though.
Was a blast to play though...
The article needs more fact checking. I'm not a video game historian, but some errors jumped out here -
Blockbuster wasn't sued for renting out manuals (don't libraries do that?) They were sued for photocopying the manuals and keeping the originals. Copyright violation.
"Data East's 1984 arcade game" was not "The Way of Karate" - it was "Karate Champ."
Obese individuals DIDN'T sue McDonalds and win - they sued Mcdonalds and lost. The author is confusing that lawsuit with the woman who was served a cup of lava; she sued and won.
Well, that was after electronic arts takeover, and thus had nothing to do with "maxis" anymore.
Just like bullfrog, origin, westwood, ect just dissolved and went away....
HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
"Atari killed Atari. Sure, they were making a pretty penny off the VCS, but they assumed the revenue and continuously overspent. The market crash thus creamed Atari, but didn't kill them."
Atari didn't overspend. The problem was that Atari made all the retailers place their orders for the holiday 1982 season many months in advance based upon the sales figures from the prior year. They banked on it and didn't expect people to stop buying games such as *Pac-Man*, *E.T.*, *Raiders of the Lost Ark*, and the *Swordquest* series. Considering those were first tier Atari titles, combined with the third party glut, contributed to the collapse of the industry along with people opting to buy computers like the Commodore 64 instead of consoles and games only for those consoles. And considering that this impacted Warners stock greatly, it put considerable pressure on them to dump Atari, even though in mid-1984 the industry was about to rebound but the bad-word-of-mouth regarding Atari forced the hands of Steve Ross to sell off the company even though the 7800 and the 1400XL and 1450XLD computers were ready for their debuts which would have kicked up the Atari sales greatly. Not to mention the Amiga hardware which was going to debut under the Atari brand in 1985, and the worldwide rights to the Nintendo Famicom Atari was about to acquire. All of that disappeared when Warners sold a 75% stake of the Atari home computer/gaming division to Jack Tramiel & Co. Oh what could have been... and this is coming from an old Atari ST enthusiast.
"The Video Game crash of 1977, however, caused the Channel F to exit the market, leaving Atari with a 100% market share. That share would later be challenged by the more expensive Intellivision and Colecovision, but those two consoles would suffer heavily in the '83 market crash, again giving Atari the lead."
I still stand by my 90% industry stake based upon the 1981 sales figures... it was between 80% and 90%. The 90% closer when you count Atari's coin-op (aka "arcade") division and arcade games in the total videogame industry at the time. Atari was fighting against the Mattel Intellivision in 1981, and Coleco with the ColecoVision in 1982. Not to mention with itself in trying to get 2600 owners to upgrade to the 5200, much like Microsoft today with convincing businesses to upgrade to the latest edition of Microsoft Office.
"The 7800, BTW, also had a lockout system to prevent a situation like the '83 crash."
I know. I have/had a 7800. I had read how great it was in the book "Infoworld's Essential Guide to the Atari" from 1984 on to when it finally was released in 1986. I mistakenly concluded that Tramiel's Atari Corp. had finally reacquired the Atari Games arcade division and we 7800 owners would be treated to ports of the "modern" games of *Gauntlet* and *Paperboy* and I was heartbroken to discover that they were still separate companies and Tengen would be releasing the "Atari" titles on the NES instead.
The other problem with the 7800 was the lack of the Pokey audio chip. For the life of me - aside from cost - I don't understand why they didn't include that chip standard in the machine instead of packing it in the cartridges for games like *Ballblazer* to beef up the audio. Standard audio was the true weakness of the Atari 7800. It certainly wasn't the Maria graphics chip, which ate the NES's graphics chip for brunch. Single Player *Double Dragon* on the NES still cracks me up when compared to the arcade experience on the Atari 7800 and the Sega Master System. Although the Maria chip did run hot...me thinks it thought it was the ancestor to the Pentium in the heat department...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
Atari didn't overspend.
Research into Mind Controller devices, a Pizza Place, consoles that were never released, expensive movie/tv/comic licenses that were never released, dozens (hundreds?) of games cancelled at or near completion, massive R&D departments, etc., etc., etc. Atari overspent BIG TIME. At one point Atari estimated that the company was losing about a million dollars a day and began to close down every division possible within the company. Only a few of the games under development survived this purge, thus giving us a wealth of unreleased prototypes.
The problem was that Atari made all the retailers place their orders for the holiday 1982 season many months in advance based upon the sales figures from the prior year. They banked on it and didn't expect people to stop buying games such as *Pac-Man*, *E.T.*, *Raiders of the Lost Ark*, and the *Swordquest* series.
This was where Atari actually contributed to the crash. Had Atari ensured that its name continued to mean "quality", then the low prices of third party carts might not have meant much. Unfortunately, the E.T. game bombed so badly that Atari buried the remaining and returned cartriges. (Supposedly in the foundation of Atari HQ.)
As I said, the crash hurt Atari, but it didn't kill them. Also, manufacturing more games than had ever been sold in a single title was DEFINITELY a bit of overspending (and overconfidence) on Atari's part. Their choices left them with little cash reserves, and Warner didn't feel like bailing them out.
Not to mention the Amiga hardware which was going to debut under the Atari brand in 1985, and the worldwide rights to the Nintendo Famicom Atari was about to acquire.
Kassar screwed up the Fanicom deal. He saw Coleco present their Adam computer with Donkey Kong on it (Atari owned the rights to Donkey Kong on home computers) and tore into Nintendo. Nintendo tore into Coleco in turn (who only had console rights), but Kassar had done enough damage to the relationship that the execs who took over (after Kassar was asked to leave) had to start over from scratch. One thing lead to another, and the 7800, the Amiga 'Mickey', the Fanicom, and many other Atari projects all fell through because Atari no longer had the money to be producing new consoles OR computers.
The only reason why Atari ever produced a home computer was that Tremiel infused the home section of the company with the cash to do it.
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"Research into Mind Controller devices, a Pizza Place, consoles that were never released, expensive movie/tv/comic licenses that were never released, dozens (hundreds?) of games cancelled at or near completion, massive R&D departments, etc., etc., etc. Atari overspent BIG TIME. At one point Atari estimated that the company was losing about a million dollars a day and began to close down every division possible within the company. Only a few of the games under development survived this purge, thus giving us a wealth of unreleased prototypes."
Chuck E. Cheese's Pizza Time Theatre - which became a big success - was sold back to Nolan Bushnell when he left Atari in 1979. Atari did not lose money on it.
There is no evidence that Atari overspent on R&D. They just added to their intellectual property library. The MindLink system was not a waste of money, nor was the research on holographics. I have no idea what patents Atari gained from Alan Kay's "amplification" projects, but I'm pretty sure Infogrames has squandered whatever they have in the portfolio due to their massive inaction with their Atari ownership.
"Unfortunately, the E.T. game bombed so badly that Atari buried the remaining and returned cartriges. (Supposedly in the foundation of Atari HQ.)"
E.T. was a ploy orchestrated by Steve Ross - chairman of Warner Communications - to steal Steven Spielberg away from MCA/Universal. And in that respect, it was a success because Ross hammered out a commitment by Spielberg to distribute half of his films through Warner Bros. Most critics have called shenanigans to a lot of the alleged 2600 cartridge dumping.
"Kassar screwed up the Fanicom deal. He saw Coleco present their Adam computer with Donkey Kong on it (Atari owned the rights to Donkey Kong on home computers) and tore into Nintendo. Nintendo tore into Coleco in turn (who only had console rights), but Kassar had done enough damage to the relationship that the execs who took over (after Kassar was asked to leave) had to start over from scratch. One thing lead to another, and the 7800, the Amiga 'Mickey', the Fanicom, and many other Atari projects all fell through because Atari no longer had the money to be producing new consoles OR computers."
No. Kassar did not screw up the Famicom deal. Kasser was gone. Manny Gerald was running the Company at the behest of Steve Ross when Atari was negotiating the Nintendo deal. They were within acquiring the rights when Warner had to sell Atari to defend itself from a hostile takeover from Rupert Murdoch. When Warner sold out, the deal collapsed not only for the worldwide rights to the Nintendo Famicom but it allowed Amiga to cancel its deal with Atari and sell itself to Commodore for $25 million, which was quite a step up from $250,000, the monies Atari had funded Amiga with, and future licensing.
And no, Atari had money. Gerald was going to revive Atari Inc. and had every plan to not only acquire the Famicom rights (to sit on the product to allow the 7800 to dominate the U.S. and Europe), but to release the 7800, the 1400XL and the 1450XLD, and the near-future Amiga project(s). Unfortunately, the hostile takeover attempt by Murdoch on Warner Communications took its toll and they sold the division to Tramiel on the cheap with the intent of reacquiring the company when the pressure was off the stock. That's why Warners refused to sell Atari to Philips. Philips wanted 100% of the stock of the entire company; Warners wanted to retain 25% and that's what they did not only with the Atari consumer division with the Tramiel acquisition, but also with the Atari Games Corporation (arcade division) sale to Namco of Japan (Warners retained a 25% stake in them, and reacquired the whole thing in the early 90s).
"The only reason why Atari ever produced a home computer was that Tremiel infused the home section of the company with the cash to do it."
Are you high? Atari released the 400/800 8-bit computer line in 1979/1980. The XL line circa 1982/83. The later XLs w
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
The author made reference to the mythological "McDonald's Coffee" case as an example of a frivolous lawsuit. As hopefully more and more people know, the lawsuit was anything but frivolous:
/ articles.cfm?ID=785
8 8000/2688065.stm
http://www.citizen.org/congress/civjus/tort/myths
He also incorrectly states that the plaintiffs won in their lawsuit against McDonald's for the fat content of their food. The fact is that the judge threw the case out:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/world/newsid_26
Ceci n'est pas une sig.
Those profits would have been far too late for the Atari of 1983-84. i.e. They didn't wait until they had a return on the technology they produced, thus spending WAY too much money. For example, the entire point of all the holographic IP they had was to produce a series of "hi-tech" handheld consoles. These were canceled after the unit was ready for release.
No. Kassar did not screw up the Famicom deal. Kasser was gone.
*cough*
Manny Gerald was running the Company at the behest of Steve Ross when Atari was negotiating the Nintendo deal.
1. I assume you mean Manny Gerard?
2. Bristow admitted that he had let the deal slide after Kassar was ejected. According to Bristow, the problem was that the 2600 was a never-ending cash cow. Others, however, have pointed out the incredible amount of money that Atari was losing at the time, and have come to the conclusion that Atari couldn't have afforded to produce the Famicom in America.
Of course, there's still plenty of confusion about who actually terminated the talks, but it would probably be fair to say that both sides did.
Are you high? Atari released the 400/800 8-bit computer line in 1979/1980. The XL line circa 1982/83. The later XLs were to debut in 1984 and the Amiga project in 1985+.
No, just not paying enough attention to what I'm typing. That should have read "The only reason why Atari ever produced the Atari ST home computer was that Tremiel infused the home section of the company with the cash to do it."
Read up on the history of Atari at places like atarihistory.org.
??? Do you mean atarimuseum.com?
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1. I assume you mean Manny Gerard?
:)
I will concede that but will point out that you cannot seem to spell "Tramiel" correctly in two postings.
Your posting from Gamespot is not as accurate as from the book *Game Over*. Atari had the money; Atari never intended on releasing the Famicom. It was a defensive move, and Atari Inc. would have sat on the Famicom while selling the 7800. The 7800 was the hope at reviving the industry and their was a lot of interest in it. Unfortunately, Warners sold out, Atari Corp. disavowed itself of gaming (until the NES started selling in 1985 in the U.S. to much success) until it was too late and then half-heartedly sold the 7800 in 1986; two years too late to make the impact it should have. The Nintendoland summary is also inaccurate because it claims Warner (TimeWarner) had only 20% in Atari stock during that time period when in fact it was 100%.
Ah, the great subject of Atari...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
I will concede that
:)
:-)
:-)
;-)) didn't want to release the 7800 once he got ahold of Atari, and it sat on the shelf for a couple of years before being released. By then, Nintendo was already starting to attack the market with fresh new games. The 7800 just couldn't compete with the updates to tired old Arcade games that it offered. (I mean, how many times were people going to buy Space Invaders, Asteroids, and Pacman?)
I was just checking to be sure. I actually work with a guy named Gerard, and I've made the same mistake a billion times or so.
but will point out that you cannot seem to spell "Tramiel" correctly in two postings.
Touche.
Your posting from Gamespot is not as accurate as from the book *Game Over*.
According to "Phoenix: The Fall & Rise of Videogames", the entire incident between Kassar and Famicom was where the damage to the relationship came from. Every source I've found on that period states that Atari was losing one to two million dollars a day. Atari posted over a half-a-billion loss for 1983. (Note that the article is from 1984.) I don't see how Atari could have been left with much in the way of money.
I guess we'll just have to step out of this one for now, and let the historians argue it out.
Atari never intended on releasing the Famicom. It was a defensive move, and Atari Inc. would have sat on the Famicom while selling the 7800.
I could see that. Sun Microsystems later did the same thing to Microsoft with an exclusive license to produce Windows NT for SPARC. Unfortunately for Atari, that was a REALLY bad time to be playing those games. Tramiel (I think I got it right that time.
That being said, a lot of people in the retro crowd seem to like the 7800 better than the Nintendo. I can't understand why. The Nintendo did better on graphics, sound, and gameplay at every turn. For an example, just look at the compromises made for Double Dragon on the 7800 vs. the NES. The NES was definitely closer to the arcade.
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"Lawsuit is the first word spit out after a car accident, or after someone burns themselves with boiling coffee that didn't include a flashing warning label." In the most famous coffee lawsuit case the woman in question didn't first sue. She first asked for compensation for medical bills. Only when McDonald's refused did she sue.
I notice the article also doesn't list the result of Esther Walker's lawsuit against Nintendo. That's a big deal. If Esther lost, it dramatically reduces the importance of her claims.
We are a litigious society, but the situation isn't as bad as the article suggests.
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"That being said, a lot of people in the retro crowd seem to like the 7800 better than the Nintendo. I can't understand why. The Nintendo did better on graphics, sound, and gameplay at every turn. For an example, just look at the compromises made for Double Dragon on the 7800 vs. the NES. The NES was definitely closer to the arcade."
What? The 7800 was closer to the arcade than the NES version. The NES version was so pathetic that it couldn't have the two brothers on the screen at the same time because the NES graphics chip wasn't powerful enough, unlike the 7800's Maria chip or the Sega Master System's processor. All the non-NES fans had a field day over that release. I know, I was one of them (although I also had an NES).
Pick up a 7800 and pop in *BallBlazer* and tell me the NES could do it. It couldn't. Why? Because the NES did not do sprites well. It had the background tile graphics gimmick that it relied on in every single platform game.
Had the Tramiels simply bought back the Atari Games Corp., the 7800 would have surpassed the NES because quite frankly, nobody did arcade games better than Atari Games, up until the debut of Capcom's Street Fighter II. The Atari Games library via Tengen sold (at first) a lot of NES consoles, and then Sega Genesis consoles when Atari Games/Tengen swore off Nintendo completely. When TimeWarner forced Atari Corp. and Atari Games Corp. to cooperate, the Atari Games Corp. library migrated to the Atari Lynx handheld and sold quite a few Lynxes in the product's day. Unfortunately, more people bought Nintendo Gameboys because they were cheap and we are still stuck with them dominating the handheld market even though they continue to peddle wares inferior to their competitors.
"By then, Nintendo was already starting to attack the market with fresh new games."
Debatable. The ROB sure didn't sell. The NES's success in large part had to do with the fact that Nintendo monopolized the industry by restricting its third party licensees from porting and/or licensing their titles to non-NES systems; a practice they didn't drop until 1990 after several court cases (although it seemed to continue on handhelds considering the lack of 3rd party support the Atari Lynx, the NEC TurboDuo, and the Sega GameGear received) encouraged them to drop such restrictions in the console market. Its one thing to control the quality of cartridges authorized for play on a company's system; its quite another to tell any licensee not to make games for any other system (or else). Such behavior prevented the NEC TurboGrafx-16 from going anywhere here in the States whereas in Japan (under the name of "PC Engine") it was the dominant console because every company ported their games to it.
"(I mean, how many times were people going to buy Space Invaders, Asteroids, and Pacman?)"
How many times did people rebuy music? From 78s, to 33 1/2s, 45s, 4 & 8 track, cassette, CD... Movies? Film, VHS, DVD, Blu-Ray. People continue to buy classic boardgames like *Monopoly*. The classic videogames are becoming that institutionalized when you consider how popular the classics are on mobile phones...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
Baloney! Sure, the graphics were smaller on the Nintendo and there was some slowdown and flicker when a lot of characters were on the screen. But it was nowhere as bad as the pastel rejects from the color factory that were in the 7800 version. Not to mention the poor sound and the fact that punches were useless. One of my favorite things in DD was to grab a guy in a headlock and beat him to a pulp. No can do in the 7800 version, because punching is useless! I think the Video Game Critic said it best:
Pick up a 7800 and pop in *BallBlazer* and tell me the NES could do it.
Pick up *Galaxy 5000* and tell me that the 7800 could do it. Both consoles had strengths and weaknesses, but the 7800 was severely suffering in the graphics and sound departments. Sure, it could pump a hundred sprites or so, but that didn't help when it was compared to the quality of the graphics on the Nintendo.
Debatable. The ROB sure didn't sell.
The ROB sold just fine given that it was part of the base Nintendo System. Nintendo made the decision to remove it from the packaging and sell the console at a cheaper price, thus the death of ROB. (It was always a gimmick anyway.) The Zapper stayed with the console for quite a long time, doing far better than the Atari lightguns ever did. As for the actual games, the Nintendo had such popular new games as Super Mario Bros., The Legend of Zelda, Metroid, Kid Icarus, Excite Bike, Megaman, Punch Out, 1942, Castlevania, Contra, Gradius, and Hogan's Alley. And that was just the early batch! As the NES gained popularity, we also got Super Mario Bros. 3, Ninja Gaiden, Chip and Dale Rescue Rangers, Duck Tales, Paperboy, Rad Racer, Final Fantasy, TMNT II & III, five more Mega Mans, Smash TV, Tetris, After Burner, Galaxy 5000, and many more! Suffice it to say, we were kept well in good games for more than long enough for the (even better!) SuperNES to be released.
In comparison, the 7800 didn't have anywhere near as extensive of a library of great games and relied heavily on its 2600 compatibility.
The NES's success in large part had to do with the fact that Nintendo monopolized the industry by restricting its third party licensees from porting and/or licensing their titles to non-NES systems
That certainly didn't help Atari any, but it was far from the primary reason. Had the 7800 been a console that people wanted, the game companies would have told Nintendo to shove it. Of course, the fact that most of the good games were produced by Japanese companies (who were more likely to target the Sega Master System than they were the Atari) didn't help Atari either.
Such behavior prevented the NEC TurboGrafx-16 from going anywhere here in the States whereas in Japan (under the name of "PC Engine") it was the dominant console because every company ported their games to it.
Honestly? I think the Tu
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"Sure, it could pump a hundred sprites or so, but that didn't help when it was compared to the quality of the graphics on the Nintendo."
:) I have no idea why other than for cost Atari kept even the Pokey sound chip (used in the 8 bit line) from coming standard with the 7800. They later had to add it by embedding it inside the cartridge for games like *BallBlazer* which to me means it cost them more to do it that way than simply bundling it standard.
:)
Yes, the NES had better sound than the 7800. No doubt. Doesn't matter if one is deaf...but the pixel pushing certainly does!
"As for the actual games, the Nintendo had such popular new games as Super Mario Bros., The Legend of Zelda, Metroid, Kid Icarus, Excite Bike, Megaman, Punch Out, 1942, Castlevania, Contra, Gradius, and Hogan's Alley. And that was just the early batch! As the NES gained popularity, we also got Super Mario Bros. 3, Ninja Gaiden, Chip and Dale Rescue Rangers, Duck Tales, Paperboy, Rad Racer, Final Fantasy, TMNT II & III, five more Mega Mans, Smash TV, Tetris, After Burner, Galaxy 5000, and many more! Suffice it to say, we were kept well in good games for more than long enough for the (even better!) SuperNES to be released."
To which Kid Icarus, Megaman, 1942, Castlevania, Contra, Gradius, Ninja Gaiden, Chip & Dale, Ducktales, Paperboy, Rad Racer, Final Fantasy, TMNT II/III, the other MegaMan titles, SmashTV, Tetris, After Burner, and Galaxy 5000 were prevented from being ported over to the 7800 because of Nintendo's exclusivity contracts on those very third-party licensees. Thus illustrating my point. As you stated, those companies probably would not have directly ported the titles themselves, but Nintendo's exclusivity contracts prevented them from licensing those titles (to which Atari would hire some other company to port the title) to Atari either. It was amazing when Atari was able to license *Commando* from DataEast and was able to port that title (which was better on the 7800 than on the NES, aside from sound).
"In the case of the NeoGeo it had a massive library of arcade games to pull from. People got tired of beat-em-ups. In the case of the 3DO, it had hundreds of computer gaming companies to pull from. The games were representative of that period of PC gaming, which is to say that they mostly sucked."
Ode to the NeoGeo. I wouldn't say that their arcade library was massive, considering it only included SNK titles, but those titles were excellent. I loved *Samurai Showdown*, but that was not enough to justify an entire console in my book; especially at that price. As for the 3D0, its whole downfall was due to the fact that the Atari Jaguar beat its graphics capabilities at a much lower cost level which deflated the whole 3D0 platform. Of course, the problem with the Jaguar was that Atari brought it out with a concentration on price instead of debuting it at a $500 price range with the CD-Rom included (instead of $250 CD-less) and allowed market forces to reduce the price of the unit over time and before the debut of the Playstation. Consequently, the cartridge based wonder system lost out because CD-Rom based media was so much cheaper than the carts and had a cost advantage as long as the console company was willing to lose money on the console at the start, which Sony was. Add to the fact that Sony "encouraged" companies like UbiSoft to delay completed titles for the Jaguar like *RayMan* (for over 6 months) until the Playstation debuted, and its easy to understand how the console collapsed in the process. Dirty tricks. But I digress. 3D0 was lame...
Oh, and *Batman Begins* ruled...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
have no idea why other than for cost Atari kept even the Pokey sound chip (used in the 8 bit line) from coming standard with the 7800.
:-)
Supposedly it was because there was no room left on the motherboard.
To which Kid Icarus, Megaman, 1942, Castlevania, Contra, Gradius, Ninja Gaiden, Chip & Dale, Ducktales, Paperboy, Rad Racer, Final Fantasy, TMNT II/III, the other MegaMan titles, SmashTV, Tetris, After Burner, and Galaxy 5000 were prevented from being ported over to the 7800 because of Nintendo's exclusivity contracts on those very third-party licensees.
Lemme see here:
Kid Icarus - Created by Nintendo. Not a very likely candidate for porting.
Paperboy - An Atari game ported to pretty much every system exception the 7800. Way to go Atari! (rolls eyes)
Megaman - Megaman was a title created by a Japanese company for both the Japanese and American markets. Atari had pathetic Japanese penetration in comparison to the Nintendo/Famicom, which had penetration in both markets.
Rad Racer - Made by a Japanese company, published by Nintendo. Good luck getting that port.
1942 - Capcom video game. Unlikely that they'd bother with the 7800 considering the need for tiled scrolling.
Contra - Title for both Japanese and American markets.
Gradius - Title for both Japanese and American markets.
Ninja Gaiden - Title for both Japanese and American markets.
Final Fantasy - Title brought to America after failure in Japan.
Tetris - Exclusive title produced by Nintendo. Atari (Tengen) thought they had the rights, but didn't.
TMNT II/III - The 7800 was dead.
Smash TV - Ported to every system except the 7800. (7800 was pretty dead by then.)
After Burner - Just about every system except the 7800. Sega was a direct competitor to Atari and probably just didn't care.
Galaxy 5000 - 7800 was practically dead. ISO views, Digitized Speech, and other key features would have made a port to the 7800 difficult (if not impossible).
As for the 3D0, its whole downfall was due to the fact that the Atari Jaguar beat its graphics capabilities at a much lower cost level which deflated the whole 3D0 platform.
Considering that the Jaguar didn't do so hot itself, I'd say the problem was that the games sucked. Pretty much everyone who ever bought a 3D0 says the same thing. The games sucked. Many even go as far as to say, "Games? Those were games?" (In reference to the majority of the "games" relying on FMV.) Really, the 3D0 and even the Jaguar suffered heavily from technologitis. Which is to say that they tried to sell based on cool tech features rather than games that people actually wanted to play. In the case of the Jaguar, it had a second chance in the 3D era, but missed the boat by being underpowered for Polygonal games. *shrug* Such is the life of 90's gaming systems.
Oh, and *Batman Begins* ruled...
Amen bro.
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"Kid Icarus - Created by Nintendo. Not a very likely candidate for porting."
I didn't remember that being a Nintendo developed game. But I'll take your word for it.
"Paperboy - An Atari game ported to pretty much every system exception the 7800. Way to go Atari! (rolls eyes)"
Paperboy was a 1984 Atari arcade game and as such, the rights to the game belonged to Atari Games Corp. (Tengen) and not Atari Corp. Atari Corp. owned the rights to all Atari arcade games pre-1984 before the breakup/spin-off/sell-off of the formerly unified company. That is why it did not appear on the 7800.
"Megaman - Megaman was a title created by a Japanese company for both the Japanese and American markets. Atari had pathetic Japanese penetration in comparison to the Nintendo/Famicom, which had penetration in both markets."
Penetration of the Japanese market had nothing to do with the quality of Atari's products. It had all to do with the complex distribution system the Japanese market created to ensure employment for three layers of distributors which has confounded American businesses up until the collapse of the Japanese economy in the mid-90s when the country finally opened up (with the exception of the Xbox/Xbox360) to non-Japanese goods. Thus any Japanese videogame company had the added benefit of surviving in a protectionist-racket economy while the U.S. game industry did not receive such a benefit and protection. The Atari 2600/2800 did not do well in Japan because of the distribution system, which enabled Nintendo to become "big in Japan" in contrast. If you want to talk quality, I'll bring up Nintendo's "Game & Watch" stuff which they seemed to have based the latest version of the GameBoy on. I will refrain from commenting on that decision.
"Tetris - Exclusive title produced by Nintendo. Atari (Tengen) thought they had the rights, but didn't."
That wasn't Atari's (Atari Games/Tengen, not Atari Corp.) fault. That was Robert Maxwell and the myriad of companies that falsely sold rights to the game which they did not own. The Atari Games (arcade)/Tengen (home version) was actually superior to the Nintendo version. And that's not just my opinion. Plenty of people were paying $90 for the Tengen NES copy when the lawsuit removed them from the store shelves.
"After Burner - Just about every system except the 7800. Sega was a direct competitor to Atari and probably just didn't care."
So was Nintendo. So using your logic, why would *After Burner* show up on a non-Sega machine during the time period when Sega still made consoles?
"Considering that the Jaguar didn't do so hot itself, I'd say the problem was that the games sucked."
Uhm, no. *Tempest 2000* was awesome. *Alien vs. Predator* was ground breaking. *Doom* was the best console port of that title. *Wolfenstein 3D* kicked. *RayMan* was supposed to be groundbreaking (and it was) but UbiSoft took the Sony cash bribe and held the release up for half a year until it debuted with the Playstation release along with the CD-Rom advantages to give the Jaguar a giant pimp slap. The good games on the Jaguar were great, but the bad ones were really bad.
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
I didn't remember [Kid Icarus] being a Nintendo developed game. But I'll take your word for it.
;-)
:-)
I just looked it up, and it looks like you're partly right. It was developed by Intelligent Systems but published by Nintendo. Still not the best situation to extract a port from.
Paperboy was a 1984 Atari arcade game and as such, the rights to the game belonged to Atari Games Corp. (Tengen) and not Atari Corp. Atari Corp. owned the rights to all Atari arcade games pre-1984 before the breakup/spin-off/sell-off of the formerly unified company. That is why it did not appear on the 7800.
(raises eyebrow) It was ported to the Atari ST along with a dozen other systems. Which Atari made it was irrelevant.
Penetration of the Japanese market had nothing to do with the quality of Atari's products.
Didn't say it did. I said it has to do with reasons why the games weren't ported to the Atari. Nintendo had a stranglehold on both Japan and America. Thus it made sense to write for Nintendo and ignore the other systems. Your rant backs me up on that.
If you want to talk quality, I'll bring up Nintendo's "Game & Watch" stuff which they seemed to have based the latest version of the GameBoy on. I will refrain from commenting on that decision.
The Game and Watch systems. Now those were fun. Chintsy, but fun. Some of the ideas from those systems obviously made their way into the Nintendo DS (e.g. the dual screen arrangement), but I'd hardly say that the DS is a clone of those old systems. It's more like a modern gaming system cramed into a PDA with two screens. Fairly bright idea, actually.
That wasn't Atari's (Atari Games/Tengen, not Atari Corp.) fault.
That's what I said. Atari (Tengen) thought they had the rights, but didn't. Nintendo sure as heck wasn't going to port the game to the 7800.
The Atari Games (arcade)/Tengen (home version) was actually superior to the Nintendo version.
A lot of people argue that. Well, there's good news. As I understand it, the Tetris Plug and Play system is the Tengen version. Sooo... you should have no more trouble trying to find this rare cart.
So was Nintendo. So using your logic, why would *After Burner* show up on a non-Sega machine during the time period when Sega still made consoles?
After Burner was released on the Sega Master System in 1987. It was released on the Nintendo in 1989. I don't know the exact details, but I guess Sega decided that they'd squeezed their money out of the game and licensed it to Tengen who turned around and released an illegal cart that got them sued by Nintendo. At this point the 7800 had only a year of realistic life left in it.
Uhm, no. *Tempest 2000* was awesome. *Alien vs. Predator* was ground breaking. *Doom* was the best console port of that title.
Allow me to rephrase what I said so that it makes more sense: "Considering that the Jaguar didn't do so hot itself, I'd say the problem with the 3D0 was that the games sucked."
The Jaguar had some good games available for it, but nothing that really challenged the Nintendo outright. Doom and Wolf3D were both old news as computer games, and by the time the Playstation arrived the Jaguar was already outclassed anyway. Worrying about the RayMan port would have been like worrying that the Sega Genesis had a port of Lion King. It just didn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
What the Jaguar lacked was:
1) A good pack-in.
2) A library of original games. (Almost all the good ones were ports from some other system.)
3) A mascot. (Sorry, but not a single system that succeeded in the 90's did so without a mascot. Mario, Crash Bandicut, and Sonic were good examples.)
4) A low price.
Songbird eventually showed what the Jaguar can really do, but it was a little late for an otherwise mediocre system.
The good games on the Jaguar were great, but the bad ones were really bad
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