Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Tries To Charm EU With Future Visions
RedStar writes "BBC Online has a piece on Microsoft's visions of the future as shown to Euro MPs in a charm operation." From the article: "This is more a new concept than a new technology, and the real version may still be a year or two away. It would track the mobile phone signals of loved ones, then cross-reference which mobile cell they were in with pre-programmed locations, like the home, school, or workplace. Ms Sellen added: 'This is not very specific at all about where people are, and that's deliberate. We don't want to invade people's privacy too much, so we deliberately keep things very coarse grained.'"
with the data retention laws and you have a totalitarian's wet dream.
perpetually dwelling in the -1 pits
they've incorporated a spam-sorting algorythm into outlook, they've got cell-phone tracking software, and facial recognition software. The bow thing looks interesting though.
Changa hates change.
It would track the mobile phone signals of loved ones, then cross-reference which mobile cell they were in with pre-programmed locations, like the home, school, or workplace.
We don't want to be Big Brother. We want to make the tools so you can be Big Brother!
Those who believe the Internet is private,
find their privates are on the Internet.
Ordinary people will be fed the fuzzy location, based on real data: To a few meters of precision.
I'm so glad big brother is watching me! It's douple-plus good that I'm being watched!
You can't take the sky from me...
So we are going to let an untrustworthy company (Microsoft), stalk our family members (hopefully trust worthy)?
I am happy that Microsoft has decided that they "don't want to invade people's privacy too much", just a little bit. Unfortunately, the 100000 people who hack the system the day after it comes out might not be so generous.
Am I the only one who thinks that some pedophile is going to hack into the system and then start snatching kids?
What are you eating? isItVeg?.
"don't want to invade people's privacy TOO MUCH"
Emphasis mine, of course. But that's just so telling, isn't it?
Your blueberry will be able to get the newest criminal records of your political enemy, shame your blueberry isn't usable after the service had to be downed because of Patent infringement.
Ok, I understand, it's not ready yet. You don't have to keep telling me every two paragraphs how stuff that's in R&D won't be available to buy this Christmas. Jeez.
the layman's guide to computer science
This is not very specific at all about where people are, and that's deliberate.
So everyone will know when you're in the bathroom, but they won't necessarily know if its number one or number two.
I cant wait to stalk my girlfriend with it.
Forget about photos hijacked from a Sidekick, this could be a stalkers wet dream.
$sys$droids
So I wondering which marketing droid read Harry Potter and thought that the Weasley's clock would be cool to have.
We don't want to invade people's privacy too much
:\
Yes. We want to invade their privacy just the right amount.
But on a more serious note, people here might be surprised that UK people (at least those in London, if I recall correctly), aren't as worried about privacy/spying issues as you might think. London has had hundreds of cameras in its metro area to prevent crime. I think it would be a little worrying if it recorded political protests or other citizen-sensitive events. But overall I imagine there's a reduction in person-to-person crime there.
I bet the software is the one responsible for making the coordinates "fuzzy" by mapping a set of pretty accurate coordinates onto some predefined locations. In other words, this should be hackable to give you accurate coordinates...
> I cant wait to stalk my girlfriend with it.
Wouldn't it be far easier just to get on your knees and peer under the crack of your sister's door instead?
Not that diffcult is it?
When it shows when they are in mortal danger...
The buddy list could also be SMS driven , similar to IM clients that require your authorization before someone can add you to their buddy list. Of course this would require cooperation from many mobile phone vendors, and there's really not that much money in it (except increased SMS revenue).
As far as the big brother issue - just turn off your phone when you are not using it.. sheesh.
Stop going on about pinpoint precision etc.
Cells aren't also neatly geographically defined things either - they are regions of equal power and so this shape changes, varies in size according to density (high in city BIG in country) etc.
Sometimes your apparent position in terms of cell can jump around hugely across bays and harbours if you come into line of sight of a particularly good tower and out from another, actually closer.
Throw in multiple reflections (the typical way your signal gets to you) and you don't have "tracking" in the sort of sense that GPS does - so stop going on about it a if it does.
We did this stuff way back in 2000 so all these M$ bashing is sorta on the right side of the fence.. you know it's never "real" or never existed until *we* did it.. goes on all the time!
Alex.
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a penguin's face - forever."
With spending like this, exactly what are "conservatives" conserving?
Just like they laughed at my extraordinarily long cords. But who's laughing now?
War Is Peace Freedom Is Slavery Ignorance Is Strength
Oh, and Bill^H^Hg Brother is always watching.
(http://www.studentsfororwell.org/)
http://www.TheGamerNation.com/Forums
We don't want to invade people's privacy too much,
Just a little bit then?
No logos or labels slapped on it that make it ugly.
Just functionality at a fair price.
No marketer driven add-ons, subscriptions, embedded into something else, etc.
Wait, someone is slapping me awake.
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
Is this anything, like, say, http://beta.plazes.com/?
Ah, another fine 'innovation' from Microsoft.
It is also important to remember that although data retention laws require information to be available for security reasons, the Data Protection Act prohibits making that information available to anyone else. In fact, most of Europe has incredibly strict privacy laws - along with laws prohibiting the trade of such information to organizations and companies that are outside the jurisdiction of those privacy laws.
A good solid campaign by European technophiles, to remind Euro MPs (and regular MPs) about the British and European privacy laws with regards to personal data, especially when coupled with reminders of Microsoft's extremely dodgy past on security issues, would be likely to derail Microsoft's efforts entirely, as their proposals are technically illegal and politicians in Europe - at least for now - are eager to NOT be seen aiding and abetting lawbreakers. In fact, a solid-enough campaign that also brought in Microsoft's status in Europe as a monopolist guilty of breaking trade laws might potentially finish off Microsoft in Europe entirely.
Before anyone marks me as rabidly anti-Microsoft (I'm not rabid, I just don't like them), this post is not a condemnation of the corporation. It is merely pointing out that their proposal violates EU privacy directives and assorted national laws. This is more likely ignorance than malice, as America has no concept of privacy, but that simply isn't relevent. It would be relatively easy for someone to spin this in a way that would leave politicians with very cold feet. Politicians aren't generally brave - that's not how to get re-elected. Politicians are professional cowards. No sane coward is going to want to be seen breaking the law - or even potentially breaking it - right now. If that were to be how opponents presented it, most politicos would back off very very quickly.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
the phrase "resistance is futile"? or perhaps several of them speaking together. please don't imagine a Beowulf cluster of those.
Power to the Penguin!
"This is more a new concept than a new technology, and the real version may still be a year or two away."
Boy those Microsoft Reserchers are really innovative. I don't know how they keep managing to come up with this stuff
Instead we get some lame gadgets. What is so special about it that this should be shown to people that are supposed to be keeping MS on a short leash?
At best this is a non article about time wasters. At worsed(?) this is the EU being blinded by MS into giving up on its plans to call MS to order.
For some reason I am not to thrilled either about MS research projects. The company always promises a rosy future yet never seems able to deliver. Remember what NT4 was supposed to be? Windows ME? Windows XP? Longhorn/Vista? Exactly when are we getting that damn database like filesystem?
Oh well the MS fanboys should have a nice day.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
http://bitcount.com/matt
For some reason, Microsoft's "visions of the future" always remind me of that Beavis and Butthead christmas episode where Beavis is talking about "the future" and it shows him and Butthead in Burger World, with Beavis as the Terminator. ROFL!
Hm, Timmy seems to be at "Click here to name this zone." Hey, that's where Megan was yesterday. I wonder if they're seeing each other...
[
is probably the only reason why there isn't yet "security" demands for enabling a cellulars camera remotely. But in the meanwhile: Just imagine of all the fun they have tapping into voluntary video calls :) In all other respects than video surveillance we're way past Orwell's predictions from "1984". Chauchescu must be spinning in his grave over the lost opportunities; The poor old sod only got as far as to sample all the countrys typewriters. What an amateur. Tie the IP up to cellphones, track them and film the environment... now there's a precision tool for the professional peek-a-boo.
Me, I lose the damn thing all the time anyway. "Where's Mama today? Oh look, she's been dropped behind the couch again."
It is a woman's prerogative to change other people's minds.
What we will need, for our protection from 1984, or probably more like 2020, is end user liscence contracts, rather than agreements. The end user should start imposing contracts (union style) on service providers that set out the terms of what the company can and cannot do with information on the customer. This should specifically include limitation on data retention, and use of information for marketing.
This would not seem dissimilar to medical information or even seemingly more confidential, client lawyer relationships.
C'mon, doesn't anyone READ the announcement?
They explicitly said the technology would track your LOVED ONES. If someone WASN'T *your* *loved* *one*, then I think the implication is very clear -- the software simply wouldn't work at all for a person like that! And surely by now they have enough other dirt on you to know if someone is your loved one or not.
A fair go for your loved ones at M$ is all that I'm asking...
Do you do drugs?
mod this insightful gentleman up
Sorry Microsoft, but my carrier has already been doing that for a while now: http://www.personfinder.ph/.
Additionally, when I was working as systems development lead for an SMS applications company, I developed a program that uses two cell sites to triangulate a phone's position based on relative signal strength. It was dropped out of development because ANTS beat us to it.
If this is Microsoft's vision of the future, I guess it would be safe to say "The future is NOW!".
Yeah, I learned this the hard way! Turns out a "restraining order" isn't a kinky S&M thing that she wanted me to do to her, involving rope and a bullhorn. It's actually some stupid court thing where I can't get within a certain number of feet of her.
Boy was my face red!!
...simply astounding. 4 million cameras. Probably doesn't count satellite cameras either, heh. And now they are building tiny hover drones with cameras, and soon after that probably smart dust cameras. And there's no end in sight, just smaller and better tech.
It's creepy.
Government as some sort of beneficial service is not entirely correct, nor even it's first function, it is primarily a for-profit growth business and they really enjoy their monopoly. Where else can a company demand that you pay for a product, at whatever cost they determine, and you can't say no to the purchase? Outside of gangster protection rackets, I can't think of any.
nt
In Britain, that leaves the House of Lords, who can threaten to veto all legislation from now to eternity. Not a whole lot anyone can do to stop them, either, as they're not elected and it's next to impossible for anyone to impeach them. Still, Tony Blair has threatened to eliminate the entire House (and one can never be quite sure on the interpretation on that) if they defy him too much.
There's also the European Court of Human Rights, but they have only limited powers to enforce their rulings. Generally, though, Governments will bow down to them. At least, in public. The European Court is interesting in all of this, because they are very unpredictable.
The last great hope of Europe is, ironically enough, the British Intelligence network. "Huh?" you might very well say. They have apparently brought down previous British governments (such as that of Harold Wilson), when they have believed the Government had become a danger to Britain. Not a million miles from the way the Watergate scandal broke in the US, only there is evidence that MI5 collectively acted against their superiors in Whitehall, rather than a single individual acting on their own.
Is it even remotely likely MI5 would bring down Tony Blair? Probably not. Would it be even possible? Oh, certainly. And, as noted, there is some basis for believing they've taken matters into their own hands before.
But this is mostly by-the-by. George Bush can't be re-elected and his supporters control all divisions within the Government, so he has no consequences to consider. In Europe, politicians are forever looking over their shoulders. They are always at risk from scandals or other PR disasters. They are therefore far more likely to listen to people, provided it is done right and they consider the risks too great. That is why an organized voice of the IT community must present a coherent case to them. They will listen - they can't afford not to.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
That this is evil, yet the communicators they had on Next Generation which allowed the computer to track every single person were cool? Its actually simple to get around the evilness by just not taking your cellphone with you, just like on Star Trek when they wanted to go incognito.
10: SIN 20: GOTO HELL
"J K Rowling sues Microsoft for copyright infringement"
On a more serious note:
I think that the bowl thing is the most useless piece of junk of the face of this planet. Who wants to display images on a bowl? This isn't new technology, this isn't even a new concept for crying out loud.
It's a weird-shaped touchscreen!
The "home note" device will probably end up like the refrigerators with internet access. No one will want to send text messages or email from the kitchen counter.
People, or at least I, would much rather send them while sitting down in a chair with a cell phone, or better yet, a computer.
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
As of now I'm no longer viewing MS threads on /. and will be only reading the games section. You people are pathetic.
First, the headline blatently tries to start a flamewar by inferring this had anything to do with recent legal troubles.
Second, this actually looks useful. If it solves just one death by keeping assholes off cellphones (no need to call to confirm being late if you can monitor traffic) it will be well worth it. And although I don't have children, if I did I would sure like to know their whereabouts (until a reasonable age where they may have that privacy).
So, this is the future, eh? In Finland we already have had this kind of service for several years already. For example, our biggest mobile phone operator TeliaSonera has been offering a service, where you can query a location of your family members for quite a while now. All participants have to sing for the service separately and personally, so it should be relatively safe, but nonetheless it will give a power to stalk you girlfriend/wife/kids. And I have understood that this will give a location quite accurately (street address etc.).
sadly, most parents have already failed. for some parents, the analogy of the police-state is just fine for them in terms of how they run their household. it's easy to say "get involved," but the fact is that getting involved is a damn sight harder than it sounds for a disturbingly large portion of parents.
in the face of an inability to actually communicate, what's left is oversight (which is true regardless of whether we're talking about the relationship of Big Brother to the People or of Mom and Dad to The Kids).
look at some mobile phone ads even now: the 'parental' motive for giving your kid a phone is that it allows you to keep in contact, or keep in touch. using the phone as a tracking device like this is just a logical extension of that impulse, and i can guarantee that there will be a ready and willing market for it.
/. is what happens when geeks talk. get used to it.
"It would track the mobile phone signals of loved ones, then cross-reference ... with pre-programmed locations"
Big Brother: "Why, I love you all! And, I actually sublet all of the land, so no problem there. My, this will be marvelous. Can I get one for my friend over there, too? Oh, but don't tell him about it, it's a, ummm, present."
Or, W: "You mean I'm taking all of this flack for this NSA wiretapping stuff, and this other company is GIVING it away? Get me the FCC on the phone RIGHT NOW.'
just as stolen cars are used by criminals, cause using an officially registered car would give them away, they'll use stolen phones. and of course use brute methods to extort the pin-code from the victim so they can use the phone (afterwards killing them to gain time to use the phone before anyone gets the idea the phone has been stolen).
That's got to be one of the most impractical uses of technology invented, and an excellent breeding ground for germs.
How about you don't invade it at all ? I would really like to be able to carry my mobile phone with me without announcing to everyone who cares to ask where I go, especially since our Glorious Leaders made that little data retention law...
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
if you can not dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh!t...
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
This is bullshit, what did it take - all of 3 minutes to come up with? Is this the best Microsoft can do, some bullshit instant messenger system that just locates users by phone, big fucking deal. The technology to track phones is already commercial, Google and the major IM players will have cornered this in a couple of years anyway. It might be a nice feature but its hardly the revolution
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Microsoft charm is like a creepy nerdy guy (aka average Slashdotter) trying to charm a beautiful girl. The more he tries to put on the charm, he creepier he comes across.
How about making laws that forbid the use of public services to spy on people? How much money does it cost the phone company to keep track of everyone's position? All they really need to centralize is how much you owe them, which is currently based on airtime and how far you call. Building data pipes so they can sell the information to vendors like M$ is not just invasive, it's a waste of public money. That kind of gossip should be outlawed.
The M$ wherabouts clock has a default date of 1984. Instead of protecting people's privacy, my government is encouraging data collection of the most detailed sort so it can spy on normal citizens too. I'm disgusted with them all.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
The Oyster card works fine to track your movements. The mobile will just be icing on top.
My question is, will cellphones start to not turn off when the cell phone is "off". Will "off" now mean "really low power mode" - just enough to keep transmitting?
Obviously they are in low power mode to keep the clock going. In fact Sony Erikssons will wake up from powered down to ring the alarm, should you set it. Removing the main battery prevents that, but I suspect there is a second battery for the clock.
Well, as a third world resident, I am starting to understand why life in the US *IS* so repressive.
You are apparently entitled to freedom of speech, provided your views coincide with those of your rulers.
If they don't, you are attacked by this sort of invective.
"I'm a snake if we disagree"-Jethro Tull, Bungle in the Jungle
'Fatal exception: Error Message:10XEEEEEEEEE1Billion - Unable to l0cate Lov3d One's... No Loved Ones available... Loved Ones are nowhere and do not exist. Your local system administrator will provide further details. He / She will have located your approximate position, and shall be arriving on your doorstep soon. Hav3 a nice d4y noW! M$ $upport Bureau, 2007."
Kind of the concept FriendFinder that the operator Telia in Sweden has, with which you can get the location of a friend (who has preapproved you) by sending SMS or by WAP?
Oh yeah, that started in 2001, so this concept is a lot newer.. My bad.
How long until they add a feedback implant? Remotely "zap" someone when they to something you don't approve of. Fat husband goes into a Dunkin Donuts ... Zap! ... boyfriend goes into a porn shop ... ZAP! ... someone boots linux instead of Windows(tm)(C) ... ZZZZAAAAAAAAPPPPPP!!!!!!.
With the historic Microsoft security, you know someone will 0WN the whole thing within a week, applying continuous DOS Zaps.
Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
A good reclinable chair you can sleep on. And diapers.
I've seen these things happen to a friend of mine. She was - though not everyday, and by someone she knew and who, I think, wasn't really dangerous - followed by a young man. He didn't follow her to her home, but he waited for her at other places.
Believe me, that was a frightening situation, because all of us couln't really say what would be next.
And now imagine such a stalker could at any time have known where she was - and if you know someone's customs, a very coarse grained position tells you everything. I mean, just imagine a weirdo watching your (in case yo are a nerd female) or your girlfirend's or sister's or mother's life from behind a monitor. And by weirdo I don't simply mean, a nerd. I mean the kind with the strange eyes who talk so slowly.
And for a single different point, instead of stalker, think of your boss...
Call them and ask.
When fiction hits reality, dreams have no air-bag.
for insightful Poltergeist reference?