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Mac users 'too smug' Over Security?
wild_berry writes "Bill Thompson, one of the BBC's technology commentators and presenter of Go Digital on the BBC World Service, expresses his concerns that Mac users assume their safety in the face of trojans, worms, keyloggers and other malware. As a Mac user he is most concerned about the lack of herd immunity that is needed to stop a few infections becoming an epidemic, fully explained in his column week for the BBC technology site. Is he right, and what actual products exist for OS X that would protect against infections?"
This article was dead on.
My first ever encounter with this mentality was in high school when my music theory instructor told us that she loved her Mac and when I tried to argue with her about a number of things, she'd repeatedly reply with "No Mac has ever been hacked or had a virus on it."
Now, at the time, I was a young nooblet and probably should have let it slide but instead I snuck into her office and opened up her Macintosh's word editing software with the intent of some lil' bastardry. I found the option to replace a mistyped word with another that the user entered. After that, whenever she typed the word "the", it was replaced with "WARNING! VIRUS DETECTED! PULL PLUG FROM OUTLET AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!" Unfortunately, her son knew enough about computer to fix it so my fun didn't last very long (only one or two lunges at the wall).
Back to the issue--I think it is a grave mistake for anyone to ever feel 100% invulnerable when it comes to computers that are connected to the internet in anyway. I would diagnose this as a standard case of a false sense of security. This is something that has plagued many people throughout history and often led to their downfalls.
What message am I trying to get across to Mac users? First, realize you're not invulnerable. Second, just browse around and look at what's out there for you to use as anti-virus and virus blocking tools. And if you don't want to, read some horror stories, perhaps that will motivate you to become aware of possible worms in your Apple.
My work here is dung.
Mac users are too smug about... everything ;]
The guy is right, and security by obscurity doesn't really work for long. I suppose that the security of Macs rests in the continued success and growth of Windows.
I have a Mac and only have the firewall turned on. I suppose I'm off the bell curve since the Mac is for entertainment only and I rarely browse and never use email with it.
So, is there a profile of a Mac virus writer???
-a
Not another one of these articles.
If you want to talk about any audience that's too smug, talk about Linux. Linux is on more important machines, and yet everyone talks about how safe and secure it is, even though in some cases it's just not true at all. Yes, Open Source code is generally more secure, but the major parts that need to be secured in OS X are Open Source.
As far as I'm concerned, both Linux and OS X are going to be one hell of a lot safer than Windows for a long time running, and so I can rest and relax in my relative security thanks to Microsoft's inferior security practices.
"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." G.W.Bush
The retailers who make this claim to those who may not know better.
A local Mac shop practically advertises that a Mac is totally secure and immune to viruses and spyware.
Every time I see one of their commercials I shake my head at the persons obvious lack of understanding of the issues at hand. It's one thing for a Mac fan to say there are secure due to their delusion... it's quite another for them to use their delusion as the basis for a sale.
It's just a shame that for them to be proven wrong, a lot of people and their PC's have to get hurt.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
That's Mac OS X.
There's no substituting an OS that doesn't let the average user have administrator rights all the time.
The windows users state that they don't need to run as administrator, but then ask them what hurdles they have to go through to make their software "just work".
Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
It will be a GOOD indication when malware writers start attempting to target Apple or *NIX. It will either mean that MS produsts no longer the dominate player or it will mean that MS products are no longer a major security problem.
IANA Mac user, but, isn't there Word (or Microsoft Office) for Mac? What is difference between Word on Windows and Mac that prevents those notorious macro virus?
hilarious
On the contrary. Linux is open source, therefor more people are looking to find bugs / rewrite code.
If enough eyes are looking, all bugs are shallow, that is the open source mentality. That is precisely the good thing about open source.
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
I've been using Linux for nearly a year with no Windows on my PC. After that, I had to use Windows (developed .NET apps) and on the first day got 3 completely different viruses and managed to get my system completely screwed up. Before that I had a huge experience in Windows and never had any real problems with that kind of stuff. However it appears that I've completely lost awareness of the possible dangers of running every app without checking first.
So it appears that Linux and probably Mac users are less aware of malware and do some really careless things because the probability of getting a virus is extremely low.
there are numerous anti virus programs out there for the Mac, but what virus are they scanning for? There are no known viruses for OS X, so how can they update the virus definitions if they have nothing to base it on? They've seen a vulnerability here and there, but nothing has been exploited yet. So it's like the chicken and the egg. you need an AV program to protect yourself from viruses, but you need a virus for the program to detect.
The day i see a virus on OS X is the day I buy an AV program.
How about a router with a firewall and the slightest bit of common sense?
It works here even with Windows XP.
If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. - James Madison
Just to name some of the obvious... OS X can't use ActiveX, it's actually useful when you run a non-administrator account, it doesn't come with Swiss-cheese services enabled by default, it doesn't automatically trust machines on its own subnet, and there's no real equivalent on it to VB scripting.
With that in mind, I absolutely agree that Mac users are too smug and that a dedicated malware author could bring many of us to our knees. (Hell, I run as administrator just to save time, despite knowing the risks. It's a gamble, although I keep good backups.) But an OS X (or Linux) malware author would have to be much more skilled than most Windows-targeting skript kiddies to do a lot of damage.
In today's real world, if you run a Mac (or Linux), you're going to suffer far less than your average Windows user. If you use an out-of-the-box Mac to do typical home-user tasks, which probably include visiting shady corners of the Internet, you won't have the spyware infestations you would with an out-of-the-box Windows box. And most of the routine worms out there have no effect on a Mac.
Bill Thompson is right, but there is a much, much larger problem that's out there: cell phones. Cell phones are always connected to a large network. There are billions of them, And very few cell phones run any kind of anti-viral or anti-trojan software.
Although Bill may be writing to ride on the coat tail's of Apple's recent success, the Macintosh can get infected by a virus or a trojan program. In fact, some of the earliest computer viruses in the wild were found on the Mac. The Mac virus problem isn't as large as the Windows virus problem, but that's because there are many more Windows machines intermingling out there.
Any networked device, from routers to mainframes, from Bluetooth devices to cell phones to the XBox 360, may be vulerable to malware. All need robust security.
Is he right, and what actual products exist for OS X that would protect against infections?
Today, wild_berry was the billionth story submitter to place an annoying question at the end of his submission. Despite the pleas of nearly a million Slashdot users, wild_berry took part in the timeless tradition of Kindergarten Teachers and Coffee Talkers everywhere, and gave us a topic to discuss amongst ourselves.
What about YOU, what is your opinion of annoying questions at the end of postings? What do YOU think about them? Do YOU have any solutions to the problem?
I don't know who the guy is, but the article is completely useless. There are absolutely no hard facts in there. Please point us to ONE SINGLE virus, keylogger, adware, or any type of malware at all before making ridiculous claims like the old and completely bogus "it's just because of low market share". It's just not true. I haven't come across anything dodgy so far and I've _actively_ looked for it. Nothing except some shell-script with a highly hypothetical threat. Also, keep in mind that OS X users tend to get a large percentage of their software from centralized sources like apple.com and VersionTracker, which wouldn't post or quickly pull any infected software. IF there was any kind of outbreak, it would be all over the Mac-web within an hour at the maximum.
I will be adding some extra security to the system. But the average user cannot do what I will be doing.
Why don't you enlighten us oh gifted one?
- Sighuh?
If you are using Mac vs. Windows you are definatly safer. Even if you are using a windows system with all the greatest and most expensive security tools out there. First you have the OS Level of protection (which the extra windows security tools tend to fix some of), Wich prevents applicatons running as Root or Super User unless it notifies the user and they will need to retype in their password (Which could still be a problem, but at least the user would know what they did and when so they could possibly fix it), and Unlike windows and a lot of Linux Distros. It is out of the box with all outside ports closed.
But you can still put malware on a Mac. Just attach it to an other application and when they install it, it asks for a password and bang your malware has full access. Some of the new features shown at the Last Mac World scare me a little to. Like allowing people to email links when click opens up iPhoto etc... where they could be a flaw in the graphic renderer to cause a buffer overflow and run code.
The second level of protection is just the fact that a lot less people have a Mac then a PC. If you want to cause havic then you taget windows because the windows base is large enough to allow viruses and malware to spread. Apples are more dotted. And sending mac malwarer may not have the numbers to spread.
All in all I would feel safer using a Mac with a Raw connection to the internet. Vs. a Windows PC behind a well maintained network, with all the patches and secuirty tools. Because the chances are the Mac will catch on fire from a faulty fan, then get a security compremize (Without changing the origional out of the box setting)
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
You're not vulnerable if you're not a target. Macs are not targets. And I fix all computers, Windows, Linux, Macs. Mac people are no more or less smug than those other users. Most Windows people don't have a clue about firewalls, virii, trojans, or worms fyi. Computer users are all the same. They just want something that works. BTW I haven't had to remove a virus, trojan, or a worm from a Mac yet. I've done that for Windows machines all the time and make good money doing it. You do the math.
> So again how is it a safer OS if these exploits existed in the first place? Go stick you head in the sand until the great Mac worm hits that erases everyone's OSX drives. Then maybe people will realize that NO Operating System is completely safe. PERIOD.
If you look at the OS X `exploits' (quotes because that's not what they are), most of them are holes in software that doesn't even run by default. Are you using Apache 2 (not 1.3) on your desktop? If so, the security update will prevent a malicious trusted (!) proxy server from crashing one thread of your Apache instance.
If you're using Windows, you need the security update to prevent the web browser from downloading an image that puts a rootkit on your machine.
It's all about severity, and OS X's "holes" just aren't that bad. However, MS consistently manages to provide a multitude of auto-infection routes to virus writers.
My other car is first.
Linux is a damned secure OS, at least as good as MacOS X. Yet, you find Linux sysadmins often talking about relatively paranoid security measures when talking about keeping their systems safe. Linux has a good security culture. (The same could be said for the BSDs.)
The issue, in my eyes, is not whether MacOS users are going to be immediately vulnerable to any virus outbreaks because they're not securing their computers properly - it's whether this whole "I use Macs, therefore, I am impervious" is fostering a culture of bad security practices in the Mac community. A good OS is only half the battle - you need to make sure you have good security practices, too, if you don't want to get owned.
-Erwos
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
That's the same reason there haven't been massive exploits for Apache. Even though it has over two-thirds market share, every script kiddie loves F/OSS to the point that they'd never attack it, ever. Same for Internet Explorer - it's only attacked more often than Firefox because it has a bigger market share and every cracker on the planet just plain loves Firefox.
Right.
In the real world, there's a lot of street cred to be earned by being the first to 0wn a network of Macs, and yet no one - not one single cracker anywhere - seems to be up to the challenge. Gee, what terrific luck on Apple's part!
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
A couple of men went camping. They camped at a remote site, new to them, where they didn't really know everyone else who was camping there. After setting up, one of the men put a little, teeny tiny lock on their tent flap door. His friend looked at the flimsy lock and remarked, "That lock is nowhere near good enough to keep out anyone who might want to get into your tent! Why, I bet I could get through that lock in less than a minute.". The first man replied, "The lock doesn't need to be the best lock in the world; it just needs to be better than that guy's" -- and he pointed to the tent next door, without a lock at all.
The point being, surely Mac OS X is not the end-all and be-all of security, but Apple has by all accounts gotten increasingly serious about security as Mac OS X has matured. It's not ever going to be possible to have a 100% perfect level of security, but as long as it's better than that guy's (points to Redmond, WA), in most people's minds it'll be the most secure commercial OS on the market. ~jeff
Because most weren't critical vulnerabilities and there are no exploits. Show me an exploit for a Mac OS X vulnerability. Now, show me one in the wild. Can't? The only thing you have to do to wipe the smug look of a Mac users face is to release an exploit in to the wild. Go ahead. What are you waiting for?
If just one person who thinks Macs are just as vulnerable as PCs would just write a worm/trojan/virus, we could end these f*@&!#g trolls and all agree that security is hard. Really, please, someone write an OS X exploit and spread it. Make it benign if you're uncomfortable with writing viruses. Just get something out there.
I'd like to see it just so people will stop using the lame "there are more Windows PCs" arguments. I'm sorry but this whole issue has gotten so blown out of proportion that the first person to show a really bad Mac vulnerability with an exploit would be on every geek blog and quite possible the NYT. You'd be f*@&!#g famous.
You're more right than you think. Symantec's antivirus software for Mac is crap and difficult to get rid of...
The rest of your regime is foolish. Virus and anti-spyware software on the Mac is a case of the problem being worse than the cure. Several of the anti-virus software packages for the Mac actually make your machine less secure. You're not just wasting your time and processor cycles, you are actually making yourself more vulnerable.
Use a firewall, backup regularly, and don't open executables from untrusted sources. That's my whole regime. Perhaps Mac users are a little smug, but hey... this article is six years old and we're STILL considerably safer than our Windows counterparts. Perhaps we deserve to be a little smug.
No amount of software can replace common sense, and common sense never let a virus onto somebody's computer (unlike certain anti-virus software).
There's no substituting an OS that doesn't let the average user have administrator rights all the time
Yes, because as we all know the really valuable data on the computer is the OS and installed programs. You know, the stuff that can be replaced in a few hours.
All that user data that's completely and utterly irreplacable? Worthless. Who cares if a virus or trojan destroys it? And it obviously doesn't matter if a keylogger running in userspace sniffs out all your bank passwords and sends them to a 3rd party (what, you don't need admin privs to open a socket?!?!), because, hey, the OS itself is still secure!
The amount of real damage that a virus, worm, or trojan can do is not substantially affected by whether or not it can get administrator privledges. It may be easier to remove, but that's about it. And, frankly, if your average user runs in a lower privledged account then they're likely to get used to typing in the admin password when prompted, without even thinking about it.
And that's what it ultimately boils down to -- the user. Clueless users will get hit by crap all the time regardless of the platform. Clued users will not, again regardless of the platform. I've been using PCs for over 20 years now, most of that time on DOS or Windows (although I've also used OS/2, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, and several others) and I've been hit with a virus exactly once -- and that was about 18 years ago. It infected very little too, because I was running a virus scanner that caught it quickly (back in the days when McAfee was free(ish) for personal use). Nor have I ever had to remove spyware, malware, etc. on any of my personal or work systems.
OS X has a rather high percentage of non-technical users, just as Windows does. Do you really think that they're immune to doing stupid things?
My dad bought my niece an HP laptop for Christmas. The next day, I was installing some software (Firefox, AdAware) and got a pop up for "cheap mortgages". She was fiddling with it for all of three hours on Christmas day and got spyware.
Yes, I realize that these are anecdotal stories, but they're pretty typical of the experiences most tech people have in their families.
But, as someone posted earlier, if Macs are 5% of the computer market, why aren't 5% of the viruses and spyware on Macs? That would be tens of thousands, not a few dozen.
You have two hands and one brain, so always code twice as much as you think!
Our legendary humbleness. :-)
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I've seen this problem on our university's campus more than a half dozen times (oh, the horror!).
-User reads something about "SSH" to access his machine.
-User turns on SSH
-User also has no imagination with password--uses common dictionary spellings
-User is cracked into with dictionary attack
-Security team shuts down port or blocks MAC after a bank calls to report attacks
-User calls helpdesk
-Consultant re-installs MacOS X and smacks the user about the head and shoulders because they had no business enabling SSH
-User has admin privileges stripped
-Problem solved--for now.
So, the biggest "problem" is, indeed, user ignorance. But, out of the box, I'd say Macs are in pretty good shape against attacks and malware given the current lack (and history) of Mac spyware, trojans, or viruses (none that I know of).
Macs are not impervious, but they enjoy 2 major benefits:
1) There aren't enough of them for a worm to spread quickly or effectively (which is what I'd want if I were in the black arts).
2) They don't come with giant holes from the complacent company who wrote the OS--why work when you can pick the low-hanging fruit from MS?
With the new Intel chips, executeables might find new life in the Mac...but we'll see.
I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
Why don't you enlighten us oh gifted one?
I imagine he's using Mac user standard precautions; place router inside wall safe, wrapped in tinfoil, and smothered with secret sauce. Nothin' beats that. We've been discussing it on the official Apple Fanboy List and have deemed this to be the best approach.
(Also we use characters like ü, ç, (TM) and © in our passwords which are nearly impossible to type in Windows.)
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
Name one.
C'mon. You just spent a lot of time telling us that there are a lot of viruses out there for OS X and that we should just research it. Well, I'm sure you've researched it, so enlighten us, please. Name one.
Oh, I know about the "opener" trojan. A shell script that never went anywhere. BTW here is a much more destructive "Mac OS X trojan" called "runme.sh" that also affects Linux and Unix! Oh my. Here it is, read with caution:
The only viruses I've seen on macs are word macro viruses - namely Claude.ASo, oh wise one, educate me and the rest of use please. I am aware that there are security weaknesses which could be expoited. But so far, none have. I agree, that we have to be vigilant, but for now, you are just talking out of your ass.
"terrorism" and "pedophilia" are the root passwords to the Constitution
To me, the advantage here has always been the availability of a quick patch. Not code that's inherently more secure due to it's license model.
So it's clearly possible to craft attacks for MacOS-X. But Mac market share is so tiny that few bother. Back before the PowerPC transition, when Apple had more market share, there were more Mac viruses. "Back in the late 1980s, viruses used to be a much bigger problem on Macs than on PCs. We here at F-Secure used to have an antivirus product for Mac but discontinued it after the macro viruses died out".
There have been some gaping holes in MacOS-X browsers that allowed execution of remote code. But nobody bothered to exploit them. Or so it is thought. There's always the possibility of quiet exploits that extract some useful information from the target, ship it somewhere, then clean up and exit.
It does keep you from doing low-level things like replacing the network stack, preventing some kinds of badness (e.g. transparent redirects). Not only is it easier to get rid of, it's easier to detect it as well (it can't replace the kernel file APIs to hide virus files, for example). I consider this sort of thing significant. It also makes it harder to run background services and so forth that persist after the user has logged off. (Far from impossible, I know, but more difficult.)
And, again, if you're the sole user of the system, you'll know the admin password and get used to typing it in when prompted. The average user (who trusts the computer, or at least fears breaking something if they don't do as requested -- always) will simply enter the admin password if prompted.
I dunno about that. On Ubuntu, it uses sudo, so you have to type in your password, not the admin password (there actually isn't a password for the root account). But being prompted for your password is a rare event, unless you're actually doing administration. It just doesn't come up in day-to-day operation. Having an email suddenly pop up a password prompt would kinda stand out.
Now, I don't deny that effective social engineering techniques can be brought to bear to get them to enter that password. But it really is an order of magnitude more difficult than for a Windows virus writer who can count on 95% of the recipients to be running with Administrator rights.
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!