Sony Aims Higher Than The Gaming Market

Next Generation tries to take a look at what Sony is up to with the PS3, without going off on a rumour-filled tangent. Their thought? Sony is after something much bigger than the gaming market. From the article: "The big play is for the high definition DVD market, and in this context, an early launch, with small hardware numbers and threadbare games software support might just be a good move. This play potentially represents Sony's most important move in its entire history. Imagine; a royalty for Sony on every single DVD sold between 2006 and 2012 or thereabouts. No wonder Bill Gates hates Blu-ray."

Comments

Oblig.

[tradiuz]

But will the blu-ray DVD's have a root kit?

Re:Oblig.

[xero314]

Only when played on Microsoft Windows.

But will the blu-ray DVD's have a root kit?

Re:Oblig.

[naringas]

the root kit won't be needed because DRM will be built into the PS3

Re:Oblig.

[eclectro]

But will the blu-ray DVD's have a root kit?

It won't be needed, because it'll stop playing when you scratch it.

Re:Oblig.

[xero314]

I mean that to be this:

But will the blu-ray DVD's have a root kit?

Only when played on Microsoft Windows.

yes it makes big difference that way (quote befor the comment and all)

Re:Oblig.

[apoc06]

i call FUD. Blu-ray discs are more scratch resistant than current cds and dvds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#Hard-coa ting_technology

apparently they can withstand an attack by a screwdriver?!?!? [okay, that part ill believe it when i see it] but the fact remains that they are more scratch resistant than any current media.

Re:Oblig.

[rtb61]

I call disgusting, exactly what stops them using that same coating on every other cd and dvd (what a pack of assholes).

Re:Oblig.

[apoc06]

the lasers used in cds and dvds is different. the laser used in blu-ray tech is a different color. it is much thinner and presumably strong enough to read through the layer of protective coating.

royalties

[gEvil (beta)]

Imagine; a royalty for Sony on every single DVD sold between 2006 and 2012 or thereabouts. No wonder Bill Gates hates Blu-ray.

You mean like what happened with the CD? (Sony and Philips receive royalty payments for CD-based media)

Meh

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me get a HDTV set and a surround sound system first...

In the meantime, DVDs are good enough. They'll be good enough when BluRay is around as well, BluRay will end up being 'high end media' like laserdisc was.

VHS was barely good, hence when DVD came along it was replaced fairly quickly (as in it took about 8 years, and you can still buy them new).

DVD media does last longer, when properly cared for. It doesn't degrade. If isn't a totally rubbish resolution.

In the long run people's $50 DVD players will die of course, and many will plump for something that does more simply because it will be $50 by that time. Maybe in 2010 there'll be a decent ownership of players and TVs and hifi systems that can handle all the benefits that BluRay can bring.

The vast majority of people don't really care about the quality though, if it is good enough.

Re:Meh

[shoptroll]

DVDs finally hit market saturation not long ago. For most people DVD is still relatviely new. Both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are way off in thinking that they're going to be easily accepted. No one wants to buy a better video player when they just got one a few years ago. Even less so for the media.

Re:Meh

[zasoza]

I agree. Most of today's digital consumer market have a DVD palyer and they view that as "High end" technology, and blu-ray is something that they MIGHT have heard about, but isn't something that they'd consider buying any time soon. This is mainly because they don't have a reason to buy it, especially at the predictably outrageous price that blu-ray players will debut at. Sony have always been masters of marketing, and their attempt to introduce their blu-ray player is a good move on their part. It makes a lot of sense, considering that gamers are always wanting to be on the cutting edge of new developments in technology. Gamers are, as the tech marketers know, the best deomgraphic to introduce new technology to. I am a gamer, and if I get a blu-ray player, it will be the PS3. And for all of you out there who don't have an XBOX 360 like I do, allow me to point and laugh at you now.

Re:Meh

[homer_ca]

The idea of PS3 as BluRay video player won't work because they're ahead of the adoption curve. Consider the state of DVD adoption when the PS2 was released. DVD players cost over $200, and VHS still outsold and outrented DVD. The PS2 was hyped as a DVD player in addition to playing games, and they sold an addon infrared remote for $30-40. Well, you know what happened next. DVD players went down to $100, then $50, then $30. By the time BluRay or HD-DVD catches on as a format, standalone players will be cheap.

Re:Meh

[Bobzibub]

I humbly disagree.

Call me a snob (you'd probably be right), but I own an hdtv and the difference in picture is huge. DVD, while technically NTSC, is better than most content out there, there are still artifacts that I've noticed. For instance, you can see that the number of colours is limited and you get strata between one colour and the next. (It looks like sixteen bit to me or 8 bits per R/G/B.) Especially sunset/sunrise scenes.

The HD signal one gets from your provider is very compressed because of their bandwidth limitations. With Blue Ray discs (I understand) this is not a problem and content can be displayed with *very* high quality. The playstation 3 playing a Blue Ray disc runs 1080p which is something like 1900x1000 60 frames per second. Imagine the difference when playing a game at 600x400 at 50 frames per sec (roughly ntsc) and 1900x1000... That is the difference we're talking about.....Except that you're not simply getting the same number of smoother vertices, you are getting more content.

When people see the difference those that can and have hd sets will buy Blue Ray players (and the PS3) in droves. The difference in quality between the Blue Ray disks and DVDs is quite a bit larger than DVDs and VHS tapes.

Cheers,
-b

Re:Meh

[boarder8925]

No one wants to buy a better video player when they just got one a few years ago. Even less so for the media.

Especially when you consider that most (if not all) of the "new media" is crap.

Re:Meh

[apoc06]

i agree. people will buy them in droves and push them on their friends.

also, blu-ray and HD-dvd will catch on due to HDTV owners wishing to have actual HDTV content to go along with their $1000-$5000 TVs. theres a market out there for the thousands of HDTV owners out there, people willing to pay money to see the difference... why watch a regular dvd in standard resolution if you can buy a blu-ray disk and actually get your monies worth there too. $200-$500 for new movie content is nothing in comparision to how much they paid for the tvs. so it should be a non-issue; at least in that market.

its like having a HDTV and no tv signal. its obvious that with next gen gaming pushing the HDTV market, a similar route would be taken for movie content. its a two way attack on sonys part. sell them all of your goods at once. you got sony hdtvs, sony movies, sony royalties for bluray movies printed, sony audio setups, the entire backcatalog of sony playstation games and ps3 games all riding on the success of the ps3. if the ps3 succeeds, they are guaranteed profits in nearly every other division of the company. [almost] theres no way that sony will release the ps3 at a price that makes people gasp. they NEED the ps3 to be in as many homes as possible. besides, sony has a tradition of releasing their products at a price around half of what people assume they would cost.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

It doesn't matter either way

[casualsax3]

Unless companies are somehow *forced* to stop producing DVD's, Blu-Ray AND HD-DVD are going to become the video equivalents of SuperAudio and DVD Audio. DVD, like the audio CD, is here to stay whether we like it or not. The current generation of media ain't broke, so consumers aren't going to adopt the fix.

Re:It doesn't matter either way

[LilBlackDemon]

It's not that the electronics companies are going to be forced to stop producing DVDs, it's that "Big Content" wants them to stop producing DVDs. The electronics companies will happily go along for the ride, knowing that if the right amount of content is there, customers may very well follow, and they will enjoy a success similar to the one they had when people were switching from VHS to DVD (and like the RIAA had during the switch from audio cassette to CD).

The thing everyone has to worry about is market acceptance. Like someone mentioned earlier, the general public cares only about stuff working, not about the best quality possible (unless they have HDTVs, which is probably a sign that they're not in the general public anymore). HDTV penetration is very low in the US, which is seen as the most important market for consumer electronics (this is debatable, but that's how companies seem to act sometimes), to the point where almost ten years after introduction the market is still well below 10% HD.

As things progress, and prices continue to fall to the point where plasma and LCD screens are as expensive as normal CRT TVs are now, HD will have higher market penetration, but people may not feel the need to update from DVDs. I've seen a DVD on an HD set, and there isn't enough distortion to warrant buying all new movies & players.

That last part was the gist of what I'm trying to say.

Re:It doesn't matter either way

[xero314]

Anyone who says that Hi Defenition DVD (which ever type) is not going to succeed has never seen the difference between standard and Hi Def images. Either format could be successful since more and more people by Hi-Def TVs every day, and in a few years you will not have a choce. Sitting around with a few thousand dollars in HD TV that you are not using is perceived as a waste by most people and HD DVDs will be a much better use than watchin the Latest Law and Order in HD.

Re:It doesn't matter either way

[SetupWeasel]

I'm sure if congress gives their "constituants" (the ones who give them money) what they want and cram HD media up our asses with legislation, HD media will be a resounding success!

Yes, I have seen an HDTV's picture. Yes, I have 20/15 vision. No, I cannot see what the big fucking deal is.

Re:It doesn't matter either way

[ZachPruckowski]

I'm inclined to agree. I mean, it's possible to confuse a DVD on a high quality projector with the actual movie reel. I've seen it happen. There is no real reason right now to move to HD-DVD/Blu-Ray, and I'm willing to bet the only people with HDTVs don't have HDMI or HDCP or whatever they need on it. It seems like we're all being forced to upgrade between now and 2009, when we don't really need to.

Re:It doesn't matter either way

[BenjyD]

I doubt many people really do care that much about HDTV. I'm writing from PAL-land, but here I can point out to people terrible encoding errors on digital TV and they just can't see them.

Re:It doesn't matter either way

[xero314]

Yes, I have seen an HDTV's picture. Yes, I have 20/15 vision. No, I cannot see what the big fucking deal is.

You may want to get your vision checked again, because my vision is nowhere even close to that good and I can see the difference with a simple glance.

Seriously though I'm not talking about standard def signal upconverted to HD (480i to 1080i), I'm talking about a HD signal through an HD display (1080i or 1080p). I personally almost feel ill watching even 480p images. There is a graininess to it that I find bothersome after having watch significant HD images. I pretty much avoid games that can't produce atleast 480p and have an upconverting DVD player (which is really not worth all that). Once I have the option to use a pure HD signal for everything (TV, gaming, DVD) I most certainly will.

Then again I also notice the the sound quality difference betwen music played through hundred dollare equipment at thay played through thousand dollar equipment.

Re:It doesn't matter either way

[Rakarra]

Yes, I have seen an HDTV's picture. Yes, I have 20/15 vision. No, I cannot see what the big fucking deal is.

You may want to get your vision checked again, because my vision is nowhere even close to that good and I can see the difference with a simple glance.

It could be that he simply saw the TV at his local Circuit City and thought (rightfully) "that image looks like crap. I don't see what the fuss is about." The usual places that sell HDTVs usually do an absolutely terrible job at highlighting the advantages of the platform, usually by blasting the same low-quality non-native-resolution signal to every box as if they were exactly the same. It takes a high-quality signal (ie, not something with tons of video compression or noise) on a box tuned to display it to really see the difference, and that's something you'll rarely see at a big A/V store.

Re:It doesn't matter either way

[SetupWeasel]

My vision was just checked on Friday.

I personally almost feel ill watching even 480p images.

I used to watch TV on an old black and white set. I didn't feel ill. Maybe this is the beginning of a new Psychological disorder! Hold on, I'll come up with a good name for it. How about anachronistiphobia? Or maybe obsoletiphobia? How about Hypephile?

Seriously, I can see a difference, but I'm not impressed. IMAX impresses me. HD ain't no IMAX.

Re:It doesn't matter either way

[daniel422]

"Unless companies are somehow *forced* to stop producing DVD's, Blu-Ray AND HD-DVD are going to become the video equivalents of SuperAudio and DVD Audio"

Totally disagree with this. The adoption of higher definition pre-recorded video formats like blu-ray and HD-DVD will directly relate to the adoption of higher definition televisions and penetration of other higher resolution formats in the market (HDTV). Have you tried watching standard def video on a 1080i (or even 1080p) sceen format? It looks AWFUL! Everyone is going to start wondering what they ponied up all this money for on HDTVs when the movies (DVDs and VCRs -- all standard def formats) look like SH!TE.
Higher resoltions like 1080i are here to stay -- they will help drive the high-def prerecorded market. Its just a matter of time. Sony getting their foot in the door with a blu-ray player (and the capability to create high-def CONTENT for it) in so many muti-millions of homes with the PS3 --- genius. Like watching sports games in high-def -- at that point it sells itself.

Re:It doesn't matter either way

[casualsax3]

I've got a 65" Panasonic that does 480p, 720p (DVI only), and 1020i. My Arrested Development DVD's look great on it played, ironically, in my PS2 in progressive scan. You can certainly make the argument that the next generation of DVD's is going to look breathtaking, but you can't make the argument that current DVD's look awful, because they just don't.

Re:It doesn't matter either way

[daniel422]

Hate to break it to you, but you BARELY have an HD capable monitor. Try looking at it (as I stated in my poset) at the HDTV standard of 1080i (or 1080p). It looks horrible. That's why you never see standard def material being presented on diplays capable of 1080i (which I notice yours is NOT). I've sat in development meeting with Mistubishi in their US displays division (rear-projection TVs) -- they are sweating bullets about it because of the huge library of standard def material that looks like garbage on the latest high-def displays.

Re:It doesn't matter either way

[apoc06]

maybe you should go out and meet some people who have hdtvs. or perhaps talk to salesmen at a store that actually really know what they are talking about [not the bestbuy/ circuitcity guy who is more of an actor than he is knowledgable]

there are convertors and accessories available that will handle the connections. those are already on the market. once HDTVs become more standard i am more than 100% sure that someone will reverse-engineer the whole HDCP scheme thats currently in place. no big deal, have patience. rootkits aside, DRM isnt as scary as we slashdot folks make it out to be, there are very few schemes that we the people havent toppled.

dont worry about big brother; lil brother is smarter and will always prevail in the end.

Re:Sony's clueless about the media market

[casualsax3]

BetaMax saw HUGE success in the commercial world, MiniDisc is still incredibly strong in Japan with very high adoption rates, and UMD movies have been selling better than DVD movies first did, having the support of a number of major movie studios.

Re:Sony's clueless about the media market

[shoptroll]

If Sony wants to grab ahold of a media format, they should just do it for crying out loud. Quit trying to sneak this into something that's supposed to be a "gaming platform". Given by the resounding success of the PSP I can't see how they expect to fail with this tactic.

Hi. Me again.

[Anonymous Coward]

I just wanted to let you all know that because Sony's "music" "CDs" installed DRM onto unsuspecting Windows boxen, we are all boycotting Sony. No division of Sony will receive any of our money, least of all their so-called "entertainment" division which puts out such "original" games for the "PlayStation 3" as "Final Fantasy XVII" and "Gran Turismo 7 Mil-spec Super Alpha Plus."

Mod parent up

[noc007]

I have to agree with this assessment. I've noticed most people aren't all that concerned if it's good enough. Not to mention most people don't generally get to see the difference in quality the higher end stuff can produce. Ignorance is bliss I suppose. Videophiles and audiophiles are the ones striving for the best that technology can offer and a good portion have the funds to do it.

Also, most people aren't offered a good demo of the better technology. Going down to the local BestBuy to check out what the hubbub is over these HDTVs isn't going to be a good demo. The video they show is a bit degraded from the splitter used and they're showing original 4:3 content stretched on a 16:9 screen. Some places will do it right and will show you the difference between the old analogue broadcast and the HDTV broadcast.

Also like the parent said, I don't feel that people are going to go for something better if what they have now is good enough. My current TV produces a superior picture quality in comparison to most of the TVs in its day and today. People that come over to my house won't notice the difference unless you really point it out or do a side by side comparison. I don't even notice the difference when watching on another TV unless I actually think about it. There just isn't enough noticeable difference for the average joe to make someone want to strive for that better TV with the ______ technology in it.

Re:Mod parent up

[Eivind]

You watch the programming, not the picture-quality. That's the main reason often picture-quality is unimportant, aslong as it's "good enough" -- afterall Big Brother in 1080p with Dolby Digital surround is still Big Brother.

This is why Sony pisses me off

[Strell]

This is the GAMING market. If you want to do something else, DO SOMETHING ELSE. I don't know how many great games the PS3 is going to get anymore than I know if the Revolution is going to be implemented well, but if I goddamn want to play MGS4, I don't want to have to be subjected to paying a huge price for technology I don't have the capability to use.

All I want is the GAME and the system's GAME capabilities. I don't have the cash on me to get a huge HDTV, a killer surround sound system, a nice receiver, and hi-def signals. I DO NOT. And I'm a fresh college graduate male - I'm YOUR demographic. Living on my own in an apartment, paying off college loans, looking for a job in this miserable market, and attempting to think "gee, I can buy FOOD today."

What the fuck is up with everyone's "BIGGER IS BETTER" attitude? THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH DVD. There is nothing wrong with even "low quality" inputs like S-video. Everyone struts around like "oh shit, you know they will have 3 billion resolution, I can't watch my old tv anymore." When the hell did the industry have to be dissolved between elitist fucks and those of us that just want to run Snake around oldmanstyle?

Shit, let's segment the industry further. It's bad enough we have Microsoft running around with HDless 360s, I can't wait to see Sony pushing for shit like "We feel you cannot enjoy this game unless you have a 55" HDTV," and subsequently make that a gaming requirement. SHIT, why not fuck us more and say it HAS to be a Sony brand? WITH A MEMORY STICK SLOT?

Make GAME machines for god's sake. PLEASE. I could not care less about useless graphics in a game, like dimples on a football or sweat on their fingers. How about optimize your power and make the system last twice as long? Then I might actually feel a little more justified by letting my poor wallet getting raped in the ass. We're all creating solutions for problems that don't exist and adding power in the form of increased costs, and for what?

Oh, right. Rendered cheerleaders on the sidelines. Fuck that.

Re:This is why Sony pisses me off

[psu_whammy]

Don't you know?

Sony doesn't simply make good, reliable electronics anymore.

They make electronics that serve as lock-ins to their media content now.

Which means that people will buy the console because it has Madden, and Sony will think that nothing is wrong, but for many normal people, Sony is beginning to represent the worst of the music industry, the movie industry, the gaming industry and the technology industry all at the same time.

Re:This is why Sony pisses me off

[Anonymous Coward]

There is nothing wrong with even "low quality" inputs like S-video.

Really? I'd consider that "high quality" compared to the RF cables I've been playing games over for the past 14 years.

Re:This is why Sony pisses me off

[Yoyoson]

...those of us that just want to run Snake around oldmanstyle...

Actually, this activity is free. Mostly it requires some privacy. Usually.

Re:This is why Sony pisses me off

[C0rinthian]

What you're seeing is Sony's content and hardware divisions impacting their games division. The content guys want Blu-Ray because of the copy-protection, and the hardware guys want Blu-Ray so they can sell their new set-top stuff.

The PS3 is just a way to push the technology so the rest of the company can benefit. They did the same thing with DVD's and the PS2.

Re:This is why Sony pisses me off

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it that the only comments rated 5 in the category of games are the ranting over the hill gamers?

Re:This is why Sony pisses me off

[SetupWeasel]

Because we vote, damnit!

Re:This is why Sony pisses me off

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't have the cash on me to get a huge HDTV, a killer surround sound system, a nice receiver, and hi-def signals. ..

the PS3 can support dual outpus, so that means 2 huge HDTVs to buy, not just one.

Re:This is why Sony pisses me off

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, if you can barely afford to eat, don't waste your money on PS3 and games.

Also, if you think the market is weak now, I suggest you reconsider your career choice. Our economy is adding jobs at a pretty good clip now and the economy is only getting stronger.

Re:This is why Sony pisses me off

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey you know what? If you're thinking "Oh boy I can buy FOOD today" then you're pretty poor. if you are BARELY able to buy food, that constitutes poverty. in such a situation, I would probably recommend that you not buy friggin' video games, if you can't afford to get food, moron! still looking for a job? try a part time one for a while, don't give me that crap that there's no jobs. if you can't afford food as you're implying in your 'poor me' rant, then go work 20 hours at mc'd's and make some cash to feed yourself while looking for a real job. and sell your stupid video games to buy some food. or go get some goverment aid.

now, are you really that poor that you sit around and hope that you can buy some FOOD ? or is that just a lame bs 'poor me' rant because you're a moron?

Re:This is why Sony pisses me off

[Rakarra]

Fresh college grad is considered "over the hill" these days? Not even in the gamer market is that true.

Re:This is why Sony pisses me off

[Supurcell]

And I'm a fresh college graduate male - I'm YOUR demographic. Living on my own in an apartment, paying off college loans, looking for a job in this miserable market, and attempting to think "gee, I can buy FOOD today."

Actually, you're not Sony's target demographic. Sony's target demographic is one with money.

Re:This is why Sony pisses me off

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, you're not Sony's target demographic. Sony's target demographic is one with money.
Dammit, I had Money till She got Pregnant !

no PS3 for me

Re:This is why Sony pisses me off

[paedobear]

Hey! My TV is Sony brand and does have a Memory Stick. It also has a special PS2 connector on the back, though I've never seen a cable for the PS2 with that connector.

Preach on, brother!

[Quiet_Desperation]

What he said. :)

Just build me a game machine, Sony. I'm at an age where I can afford whatever I want, but what I want is some deep and immersive gaming experience at a reasonable price. I would like to retire some day.

Who cares? MS and Nintendo already won

[Anonymous Coward]

MS's XBox 360 has some of the best online support for any console we've seen yet. Sony has ... nothing. (And, no, an ethernet adapter doesn't count. You need something to connect to, and MS has that, Sony doesn't.)

So the XBox 360 will dominate the online gaming market, which is huge. Then you have the Revolution, which stands poised to revolutionize gameplay. That leaves Sony with... um... Oh, right, bigger discs. That's it.

Sony's media can hold more than 8.4GB of data. I have no idea why any videogame would ever require more than 8.4GB of data, but if it really did, you could always - gasp - split it onto two discs. If you're going over 16.8 GB of data, maybe you ought to cut down on the cutscenes. And it's already been pointed out, many times, that no one is going to use Blu-ray for movies over DVD.

Sony has nothing but sequels. Final Fantasy XXII, Gran Tourismo 12 AAAAA-Spec, Metal Gear Solid 8, Yet More Codec. Nothing new. Nothing original.

All the online gaming will happen on the XBox360. All the original gaming will happen on the Revolution. All the tired, old, boring sequels will be for the PS3.

Sadly, though, the more I think about it, the more I think that last sentence means that, in reality, Microsoft and Nintendo are doomed. Boring sequels always seem to sell better than new and original. Here's hoping that people really will boycott Sony over the rootkit fiasco - unfortunately, no one seems to remember that outside of Slashdot any more.

Re:Sony's clueless about the media market

[Sparr0]

resounding success? the ipod was a resounding success. i think ive seen a total of four PSPs since release. 2 owned by friends (who dont play them any more) and 2 at the mall. i see more people playing GBA or (not 'and') DS than PSP by a huge margin.

Amen

[ChrisMroz]

Amen! As I find myself playing more old school games over playing these AWESOME looking and SOUNDING games.... The Revolution is starting to make a boatload more sence to me. PS3 has these capabilities. Minus the Fun. ISNT THAT WHAT A GAME IS? FUN!!!! Its no fun if you end up with a credit card bill that wont get paid off until the next gen console releases. If you want a real experience. Get off your ass, travel somewhere. Visit a new place and experience things that no video game could ever do. Bluray can kiss my ass. So can DRM.

Freaking convergence nonsense...

[Godeke]

I have an XBox, two PS2s and a game cube connected to my home LAN. Last round definately went to the PS2, with the XBox having superior technology (and Live was a great idea) but not as many games that I care about and the Nintendo having the best family/party games. (Checking my games, I have 34 PS2, 15 XBox and 12 Cube games on the shelf. I know I have traded in many more PS2 games than either of the others...)

This round I can't find interest in *any* of the new machines. The 360 is lacking a killer app: I'm not into the FPS on consoles (say hello to my mouse and keyboard noobs) and the rest of the offerings are pretty much nothing to write home about. The PS3 has backwards compatibility, which makes it more likely (screw you Microsoft for your choices of emulated games... my library of XBox games hates you) and the Revolution at least is *trying* to do something interesting while keeping costs down *and* including backward compatibility. I will probably pick up the Revolution when it comes out, wait for the PS3 to develop a library and flip Microsoft the bird since I will have to hang onto the massive box to finish up the games I have in the queue anyway.

Re:Freaking convergence nonsense...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not into the FPS on consoles (say hello to my mouse and keyboard noobs)

Just fyi, PA posted a link at one point to this - http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?products_id=5438& likref=google_frag_xbox&gclid=CMKS86Lg44ICFQwJSQod tCh_kg/

It lets you hook a mouse and keyboard directly to an Xbox in place of the controller. (serial, not usb, unfortunately - not sure who had that bright idea) And I suppose theres little chance of anything similar in the immediate future for the 360, but if you like Halo/Halo2 and similar games I highly recommend it. I have one myself, and it improved my play by leaps and bounds since I'm a PC-game native.

Re:Who cares? MS and Nintendo already won

[casualsax3]

Actually go and play MGS3 and then kindly STFU. It was superb. If every sequel is going to be that great, I'll take another 20, thanks. Also if you're looking for a few Sony specific original games, try Atellier Iris: Eternal Mana, Shadow of the Colossus, Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne, Digitial Devil Saga 1&2, XENOSAGA, God of War, Ico, Devil May Cry, Virtua Fighter 4, Suikoden, Ico, Shadow Hearts and sequels, Katamari Damacy 1 & 2, Kingom Hearts, Growlancer Generations, Phantom Brave, Disgaea, Soul Calibur, .hack, Rygar, and Jak and Daxter 1-3. This was off the top of my head, I'm sure there are at least one or two I've missed... I'm all for getting on Sony's case, but having a huge list innovative and enjoyable games isn't one of my hot buttons.

Re:Sony's clueless about the media market

[SetupWeasel]

UMD movies have been selling better than DVD movies first did.

The PSP is also selling better than telephones, TVs, or, hell, video games did when they were first brought to market.

The US also has more acres of forest in it today than we did when our country was founded.

Damn those environmentalists! Lying to us all this time! Unless... there are facts I'm missing... Nah!

Re:Sony's clueless about the media market

[casualsax3]

http://www.tgdaily.com/2005/08/31/9_million_psp_ga mes/

Really flawed argument

[Lobster Cowboy]

The author's arguments are extremely flawed. People who don't play video games will not buy Playstation 3 as a movie player. Playstation is known as a games brand, not a general electronics brand. This idea that Sony is going to Trojan horse Blu-Ray to non-gamers with PS3 is total nonsense. If this is truly the path that Sony wants to travel, they'll lose their video game market share faster than they lost it for portable audio.

Re:Really flawed argument

[trimsyndicate]

Well that's exactly what happened in Japan when the PS2 came out. It was the cheapest DVD player on the market, and people bought them in droves for that very reason. They'd like nothing more than to repeat that success, this time in a bigger video markeet (the US). The big wild card is whether consumers will actually care enough about Blu-ray for this angle to make a difference.

Re:Really flawed argument

[BenjyD]

I can't see Blu-ray/HDDVD catching on very quickly at all unless Sony can come up with some absolute killer feature. DVD was a big leap from VHS and offered very clear advantages: no rewinding, no tape jamming, smaller and simpler form factor, more reliable, doesn't wear out and last (and least) better image quality.

It's like Joel Spolsky says: "Don't start a business if you can't explain what pain it solves, for whom, and why your product will eliminate this pain". I can't see what pain Bluray is going to solve.

Re:Really flawed argument

[Belly]

True, but when the PS2 launched there was already a pretty large variety of movies available on DVD - DVD movies had already been on the market for more than a year, and in rental stores. The PS2 made for a cheaper way to get a DVD player, but it certainly wasn't the first. There were already lots of DVD players available.

In the case of the PS3, the situation is very different - there are hardly any Blu-ray players available *at all*, and because of this not much in the way of software. I have yet to see any Blu-ray movie releases. For a repeat of what happened with the PS2, there would have to be a sudden deluge of Blu-ray media movie releases in the next 6 or so months. If the PS3 is the first affordable Blu-ray player, then the adoption rate probably isn't going to be much higher than any other brand new media in its first year.

I think that Blu-ray market is still going very immature when the PS3 is released, and no where near as mature as the DVD market was (in terms of software availability) when the PS2 was released.

Re:Really flawed argument

[apoc06]

there are quite many people that bought ps2's and used them as dvd players. even here in the usa. there are a great number more people that bought ps2s and STILL use them as dvd players. its one of those stupid features everyone complains about when sony makes it standard, and complain even louder when their other consoles cant do it natively. its up there with [near-full] backwards compatibility.

Re:Really flawed argument

[apoc06]

your logic is sound, but how would that explain the booming market for UMD movies? apparently there is only one model of player for the discs, add to that the fact that the player is expensive, and before the player came along there were NO other models on the market. hmmmmm....

Re:Really flawed argument

[Belly]

Good point. I hadn't thought about UMD.. Although, is the UMD market really booming? I've seen a fair variety of titles on the shelves (and that's here in Japan), but no idea how well they're selling.
It makes for an interesting excercise in looking at what the PS3/Blu-ray release might be like. What interests me though is that in the case of UMD, people are paying for something which is actually inferior (in video quality) to their existing media, and the only advantage it has over existing media would be that its hardware platform is portable.

But I think my original point still stands - in the case of the PSP, I doubt that many people buy them *because* they can play UMD movies. I'd say that most buy them because its a pretty good portable game system, and the UMD capability is a bonus. Which is what I think will happen with the PS3. As opposed to what the original post was saying about the PS2 - that being a cheap alternative to a dedicated DVD player was a major consideration in deciding to buy one, as opposed to just being a nice extra.

Re:Sony's clueless about the media market

[SetupWeasel]

Doesn't change the fact that your first post was deliberately misleading.

WMD?

[Big Nothing]

"Sony is after something much bigger than the gaming market with the PS3."

Yes, I think it's safe to assume that the PS3 will be used for WMD's.

Re:WMD?

[TechieHermit]

That's too funny!

I heard that some of the people looking at Iraq thought that Saddam's scientists had told him "we need x amount of dollars so we can build you y superweapon" and then, took the money and bought regular research tools, with which they did boring old regular research. Saddam apparently didn't know any better, and kept funding them.

So, considering your link, picture this:

Iraqi General: "O Mighty Saddam, we need several thousand Playstations, with one extra controller each!"

Saddam: "What in hell for? Aren't those videogames?"

Iraqi General: "Uhhhhhh YES! But they contain mighty processor chips, with which we will control a fleet of intercontinental ballistic missles and destroy the infidel!"

Saddam: "Amazing! Yes, I grant you your request!"

(later)

Iraqi Captain: "He bought it???"

Iraqi General: "Yes, yes he did. It was amazing. Here's the money; make sure you get me Dead or Alive II, with the bosoms, praise Allah! And oh, I want copies of Red Faction I and II, for, ah, TRAINING PURPOSES. Distribute one Playstation and several good games, plus some of that dirty Japanese porno, to all of the frontline units. Happy soldiers spare their beloved General when they go bananas and rebel!".

Iraqi Captain: "Just the general?"

Iraqi General: "No, no, of course not -- remember, you are procuring the games and porno! This time next year, we will both be opening a 7-11 in Los Angeles, my friend! Now run along, I hear Gamestop has a special on..."

Re:Why do I need blu-ray?

[fixmyship]

So keep your DVDs. No one is forcing you to buy Blu-Ray or HD-DVD versions of them.

Re:Sony's clueless about the media market

[casualsax3]

Appologies, I wasn't trying to be misleading. I read an article that compared the sales of DVD players and DVD's to the sales of PSP's and UMDs, and concluded that the adoption rate of the UMD format was very impressive. I'll try to find it.

Re:Who cares? MS and Nintendo already won

[Anonymous Coward]

• Atelier Iris: Eternal Mana - I hate RPGs
• Shadow of the Colossus - Sucked hard (yes, I know people here liked it, I still hated it)
• Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne - I played Devil May Cry, it sucked
• Digital Devil Saga 1&2 - RPG...
• Xenosaga - I'd be hard-pressed to call that a game, it's more like a long series of cutscenes
• God of War - One example
• Ico - See Shadow of the Colossus
• Devil May Cry - See Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne
• Virtua Fighter 4 - Sega is definitely not Sony
• Suikoden - What is with you and RPGs? Console RPGs suck.
• Ico - See Ico, and then see Shadow of the Colossus
• Shadow Hearts - Yet another RPG
• Katamari Damacy 1 & 2 - Sucked. Yes, I know people here liked it, I played "Marble Madness" on the NES years ago and got over my "ball rolling" stage. Besides, there won't be any more sequels, so it's irrelevant to the PS3
• Kingdom Hearts - A mini-blackhole. If the PS3 will have more games like Kingdom Hearts, I'll be just as glad to stay away
• Growlancer Generations - I'm guessing "console RPG" again, although I can't actually tell
• Phantom Brave - we've been over the console RPG thing already
• Disgaea - *sigh*, yet more console RPGs
• Soul Calibur - HAH! That's a Dreamcast title! Soul Calibur II was released for XBox and GameCube too, so it's hardly a PS2 title. And from what I hear, the GameCube version was the best.
• .hack - the TV show sucked and the game sucked worse
• Rygar - this got average reviews, but I've never even heard of it before
• Jak and Daxter - Ah, yet another game I never finished because it sucked so hard. Supposedly 3 was better, but I played someone else's copy of 1 and 2, and it was just terrible. Too bad, because I liked Crash Bandicoot on the orginal PS.

So, if I'd be missing out on those "great games" by ignoring Sony consoles, I can't really say I'd be missing out on anything.

Besides, not one of those is an online game. Gaming is moving in the online direction, and Sony isn't.

Re:Sony's clueless about the media market

[SetupWeasel]

My point is that DVD players weren't $250 at the time and DVDs weren't that cheap to produce. You are comparing apples to oranges.

You could probably say that the VideoNow discs have an impressive adoption rate compared to early DVDs, that doesn't mean they are more successful.

Ugh...

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats another reason why I hate Sony. Trying to dominate the markets. PS3 isnt a games console so why should it be considerd one? why is Sony even in the industry? they should stick to one industry until they are good at what they do.

Re:Who cares? MS and Nintendo already won

[Anonymous Coward]

Simple question:

What DO you play?

Re:Who cares? MS and Nintendo already won

[casualsax3]

You do not deserve to play video games.

Re:Sony's clueless about the media market

[(A)*(B)!0_-]

Anecdotal evidence! Wonderful!

Because your personal world view represents the entire globe, right?

Re:Sony's clueless about the media market

[Anonymous Coward]

The US also has more acres of forest in it today than we did when our country was founded

Gee mom, that's a huge forrest. What do you call those trees?

Corn.

Re:Who cares? MS and Nintendo already won

[Anonymous Coward]

I would have thought it was obvious: online games, or at the very least, multiplayer games. Playing against a computer gets boring, fast. (Which makes console RPGs absolutely DREADFUL, since you're just doing the same crap over and over and over again... Worse, all you're really doing is unlocking the next cutscene, with absolutely no influence on the world at all.)

Microsoft has the online support, Nintendo has the fun multiplayer games, and Sony has ... bigger discs. Not a hard choice for next gen, really.

Re:Who cares? MS and Nintendo already won

[Sylver Dragon]

Sony's media can hold more than 8.4GB of data. I have no idea why any videogame would ever require more than 8.4GB of data, but if it really did, you could always - gasp - split it onto two discs.

Riiiight, and I'm never going to fill the 10MB hard-drive in my 8088. Games get bigger and, usually, better. And while shuffling disks works ok when you only have a few disks; eventually, you will reach a point where it becomes a royal pain in the ass. Go back about 10-15 years and you'll see what I mean. When I got King's Quest V the damn thing came on 10 1.44MB floppies. Installing it was annoying. I was only too happy to get a CD-ROM drive to stop that sillyness. Evenatully our games will outgrow DVD's. Yes, a lot of the reason will be graphics, that's ok. We'll probably also see a lot more voice acting and content stuffed in there too. As it is, I'm starting to see games come on 2-3 DVD's pretty regularly. This is still below the threashold of absolute annoyance, but it's getting close. By the time it hits 5 disks a game, give me something new.
Of course, the obvious point here is that neither Blu-Ray nor HD-DVD offer a substantial enough improvement to matter. So, it will probably be neither of these which supplant DVD's, but it will happen.

Re:Who cares? MS and Nintendo already won

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you totally listed Ico twice.

Re:Why do I need blu-ray?

[vertinox]

So keep your DVDs. No one is forcing you to buy Blu-Ray or HD-DVD versions of them.

Right, but after 2007 will I be able to buy or rent any new releases without either format? I'm assuming yes, because I think DVD is around to stay, but what what if I am wrong.

Re:Why do I need blu-ray?

[dragonsapp]

But they are forcing you to buy a Blu-Ray player.

Re:Sony's clueless about the media market

[Sparr0]

I haven't kept up with the official figures, but a quick google says IGN thinks each Nintendo handheld outsold the PSP in November. Other sources put the DS ahead of the PSP for pretty much the whole year, month by month, but by different margins.

Re:Who cares? MS and Nintendo already won

[KDR_11k]

Sony has nothing? Then what is this "Central Station" online service you're supposed to register with?

Re:Who cares? MS and Nintendo already won

[jchenx]

Hmm, we have much the same taste in games. Anyway, I just wanted to point out that most of the games you listed (maybe all?) were third-party titles. Many of them were made by smallish companies who can only afford to develop on one console, and obviously the PS2 was the one to be on, during the last console generation.

If Sony somehow manages to tank the PS3 (which would be a mistake of gargantuan proportions, and I honestly don't see this happening), then you'll definately see many of those console RPGs and titles for the Revolution and 360.

Re:Who cares? MS and Nintendo already won

[Headcase88]

No, it's not obvious. Different people like different games.

For example, I like simplistic but challenging games that have as little ambiguity as possible as to whether you're playing the right way, but requires lots of time to really master the hidden layers of strategy (ie Ikaruga, any rhythm game, most games made by Nintendo+subsidiaries).

Some like story driven RPGs, especially ones that challenge you to be "inventive" (Dark Cloud 2's invention system...). Some people like realistic games such as FPSs and traditional sports games. Some people will just play anything delightfully quirky (luckily most of those games fall under simple but challenging), etc etc.

Lessons learned: never say a console has the "best" games, never say a console has the "worst" games, never post a massive list of games that are "good" to prove a console as best, never take a list and games and try to explain how "bad" they are, and above all else, never ever trust a review score.

Re:Who cares? MS and Nintendo already won

[NoMoreBS]

Soul Calibur is not a Sony game. It's produced by Namco, and was originally for Dreamcast, made by Sega. Soul Calibur II is on 3 different platforms. The latest version is only on PS2, but I think it's misleading to call it a "Sony specific original game".

Re:Who cares? MS and Nintendo already won

[buffer-overflowed]

Only the barest handful of those are Sony(SCEA/etc.) games. Unless you have a hard-on for sony, for gods sakes don't buy the shit. Support the companies doing something useful and the third parties will follow. Blue-ray? NOT USEFUL.

WAKE UP! The playstation brand is a poorly architected piece of shit that is only in use today because Square-Enix wanted the extra space and lower royalty costs of CD-based media 10 years ago.

Sigh, the PS generation, wouldn't know quality or the importance of first-party titles if it came up and bit em on the ass. Kids, eh?

If you buy XBox/PS#, you have no right to complain

[Anonymous Coward]

Not directed at you specifically - just to griping gamers in general.

Want things to change? Starve the damn beast. Quit giving MS and Sony money for these things - it makes them think they're doing something right!

And while you're at it, reward the only company that's actually a GAMING company. Nintendo may be big, but compared to the others, they're a David competing against not one, but two Goliaths. They're keeping things game-centric, and they're at least trying to keep the industry fresh.

Re:Who cares? MS and Nintendo already won

[casualsax3]

OK. First, why is it that having 3 times the storage of a current DVD is going to be useless? I'll be the first to tell you that graphics don't make a good game (see Atelier Iris) but it certainly can't hurt the experience. Fully orchestrated 24 bit audio can't hurt either. You've made a terrible argument, if you can even call "NOT USEFUL" an argument. Next, you've missed the point - point being that all of those games are PS2 exclusive. It doesn't matter where they come from, it matters where you can play them. Halo 2 wasn't produced by Microsoft, but I certainly consider it a Microsoft title. Care to back up your comment about the "quality and importance" of first party titles? Your only example is going to be the NES, because after that most of the magic was 2nd and 3rd party. I don't understand why it is that when I try and defend the Playstation brand people assume it's because I've never been exposed to anything before it. It's far from the truth, and calling me a kid hardly changes the fact that the PS2 has a ton of great games. Grow up, and get a better argument.

Re:Sony's clueless about the media market

[apoc06]

success is not measured by comparison.

the handheld market is apparently large enough to support more than one console, just as the home console market can sustain three consoles. there are enough people out there now [hardcore, casual, and all the shades in between] that if one console is selling that doesnt automatically mean that the other consoles are failing.

if those consoles arent bringing in millions in sales on their own merit... well then perhaps i would consider it a failure, but last i looked the psp is selling like hotcakes too. maybe not as hot as the ds right now, but that doesnt mean that the psp isnt selling, and sony isnt making millions off of it and its software and movies.

Re:If you buy XBox/PS#, you have no right to compl

[apoc06]

no disrespect, but i personally like some of the innovations that competition has brought to the market. if it were up to nintendo, we would still be blowing cartridges, and limited to 64mb of game space. competition is what has finally gotten nintendo off its back and done what it does best: innovate.

without competition, there would be no online console gaming. pc gaming would be the only place to find first person shooters. there would be nearly no mature games on the market. we would have to be content with handheld tech thats two-three generations behind. third-party contracts would still have companies signing over their souls. games would be in the $70 range... standard. mario and friends would be featured in some capacity in every title. etc...

nintendo is not without fault too. let us not forget that they were once the beast; the biggest beast of them all. they still are. dont let the fact that they have been quiet lately change that fact. they are all pretty evil when you really look at it, so it all boils down to which console releases the best games for you.

by the way, nintendo fresh? until the DS, they havent /really/ had any fresh ideas other than controller schemes. theyve stuck with the same 5 or 6 franchises for years. solely game-centric? nintendo has always tried to hit you on several fronts too. particularly with merchandising. the difference is that nintendo doesnt have a division that sells tvs, walkmen or an OS. that said... pokemon anyone?

Re:Who cares? MS and Nintendo already won

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually go and play MGS3 and then kindly STFU. It was superb.

I've seen Metal Gear Cutscene 3 being played. Renaming the codec a radio doesn't make it superb. It's still the same boring "unlock the next cutscene" game that it always was.

There are plenty of other over-the-shoulder shoot-em-up games that don't bore you with some anti-nuke anti-war "story". If I wanted to be told war is bad, I could go watch some Oscar-winning movie.

Re:Sony's clueless about the media market

[(A)*(B)!0_-]

Accepting those figures as completely accurate: do you see how that is significantly different than saying, "No one I know has one."? Your initial statement has no merit whatsoever because it is statistically insignificant. Understood?

Re:Who cares? MS and Nintendo already won

[apoc06]

"Virtua Fighter 4 - Sega is definitely not Sony"

no, maybe not... but virtua fighter is a solid original game on a sony console.

"Soul Calibur - HAH! That's a Dreamcast title! Soul Calibur II was released for XBox and GameCube too, so it's hardly a PS2 title. And from what I hear, the GameCube version was the best."

actually, nintendo fans prefer the gamecube one because it featured link. also, the soul calibur engine itself was created with the playstation style controller in mind, so people complained about the gamecubes control layout. it sold more on the gamecube, because it was one of what? five gamecube titles in that genre. finally the third release of the game is ps2 exclusive, so...

i guess the op forgot socom and ratchet and clank. both games have online options.

Re:Why do I need blu-ray?

[apoc06]

they are asking you to buy their new video game console and they are "giving" you the blu-ray player for "free". =)

Re:Sony's clueless about the media market

[shoptroll]

I believe I was trying to be sarcastic on the resounding success part. Sony's fighting a weird war... if they try to make it a game machine, they're competing with Nintendo. If they try to make it a "media device" they're competing with the iPod (even if the PSP has Internet capabilities... who wants to read a website on a tiny screen?). They're in a really bad spot, and it doesn't look like they realized their predicament before they plunged in head first with this.

The only way they could win this is to produce something that outperforms both machines. The price tag is comparable to a high-end iPod, but its an inferior device (storage limitations and battery life being the culprits here). If they actually had a good stable of games for it, it might be worth it.

If it was an excellent media device and excellent game machine, it would be more than worth the $250-300 price tag. But with so-so across teh board you're really better off with a GBA or DS and an iPod or other mp3 player. Jack of all trades, master of none lesson here.

Re:Who cares? MS and Nintendo already won

[DeadScreenSky]

As it is, I'm starting to see games come on 2-3 DVD's pretty regularly.

Seriously? I'd be surprised if even one comes out every month.