Super Bowl Footballs Get The DNA Touch

theodp writes "All 120 Super Bowl XL footballs will be marked with a drop of synthetic DNA to thwart potential counterfeiters (free reg. required to read) who might be tempted to sell phony game-used Super Bowl footballs, which can be worth thousands of dollars. Exposed to a specific laser frequency, the DNA glows to a bright green. 'The chance of replicating this exact DNA sequence is one in 33 trillion,' said the president of PSA/DNA Authentication Services."

Comments

120?

[Anonymous Coward]

they need 120 balls for one game?

Re:120?

[geofferensis]

Well you figure 2 teams, 30 players each. Yeah it comes out to 120. No wait, you need a football, so 121.

Re:120?

[demeteloaf]

Well, when you consider that they can auction / sell off every one of those balls as "offical game ball used in super bowl XL," They're going to want to stretch as much money out of that as possible.

I want to say a regular (non playoff) game will use less than half that number of balls.

Re:120?

[timeOday]

they need 120 balls for one game?

Is it guaranteed that each multi-thousand $$$ football is even used in the game once? Does the average game even have 120 plays, and do they really switch them every single play?

Re:120?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, because when you're selling commercials for $2.5million per 30 seconds, the 120 fucking footballs are actually a consideration in the finances of the NFL.

Don't forget the millions of Steelers and Seahawks jersey's, hat's, scarves, seat cushions, beer mugs, key chains, mirrors, pool table lights, gloves, ballcaps, parka's, etc, etc, etc, etc that are being sold this week, all licensed NFL items, but yeah you might be right, they are so fucking worried about how much money they make on 120 footballs, that this is the reason to mark them.

Re:120?

[Red Flayer]

"Is it guaranteed that each multi-thousand $$$ football is even used in the game once? "

No. But the unused balls aren't sold as Superbowl-used balls.

"Does the average game even have 120 plays"

Nope. Roughly 60 plays + special plays (kickoffs, punts, etc). Likely fewer in this game, since both teams have potent running games.

do they really switch them every single play?

For the first half. Then they use only(!) 12 balls for the 2nd half. It's in the article.

Re:120?

[Caldeso]

Every kick and punt requires a football fresh out of the box (I believe these footballs are manufactured differently, as well, and can only be used for kicks/punts, not normal plays). That's kickoffs, field goals, and extra points. Figure 15-20 balls required just for that, every game, minimum (it can be much more in a defensive battle). I'm not sure if there are any other times fresh balls are required, though.

Re:120?

[nb caffeine]

Well, the AFC championship game between the steelers and broncos had 118 plays, but I sincerely doubt they change the ball between every play. Never really paid enough attention to that.

On topic, an interesting application of tech, not sure that it is real newsworthy (in the slashdot sense)

Re:120?

[damsa]

The do a similar thing with "Official" pace cars in racing. Basically there is a real pace car and then 25 other cars that does one lap before the race and then sell the cars as Official Indy cars or whatever.

Re:120?

[smash]

You're kidding right? (non-american here).

Sheesh.... what's the reasoning behind that? Because some sissy will complain that the ball was scuffed, and that's why they missed, or something?

Don't change ball = every person has to deal with the same ball = more fair, imho. Plus, you don't end up needing 120 balls for a football game...

smash.

Re:120?

[chicagotypewriter]

I'm not sure if there are any other times fresh balls are required, though.

I like to keep my balls fresh all the time, thank you very much.

Re:120?

[grapes]

"Does the average game even have 120 plays"

Nope. Roughly 60 plays + special plays (kickoffs, punts, etc). Likely fewer in this game, since both teams have potent running games.

Wrong. There are 60 minutes in a game. Even if the clock ran continuously through the game, they only get 40 seconds max between plays, plus the time the actual play takes, so maybe one play per 45 seconds. This means a minimum of 80 plays. In reality, teams don't take the full 40 seconds between plays all the time, plus the clock stops after an incomplete pass, whenever the ball carrier goes out of bounds, at the end of quarters/halves, after scores, and after every timeout - and it doesn't start again until the next snap.

Consider the extreme situation, the two-minute drill at the end of the game. Teams often run 6 or 7 plays during a single (game-clock) minute.

A much closer estimate would probably be a play every 30 game-clock seconds, or 120 plays per game.

do they really switch them every single play?

For the first half. Then they use only(!) 12 balls for the 2nd half. It's in the article.

Also note that this isn't standard practice for all NFL games, just something for the Super Bowl. Although even in regular season games, they still keep some ridiculous number of balls on hand. It's usually left up to the offensive team how often they switch the ball, so they could technically do it every play for the whole season.

It's not like the cost for this many balls, even with embedded DNA, is the least bit significant for the NFL, considering what they are making off this one game.

Hell, even in grade school football I remember each team running in a clean, dry ball at the beginning of each possession, and more often in bad weather.

Re:120?

[The Ultimate Fartkno]

"Don't forget the million's of Steeler's and Seahawks jersey's, hat's, scarve's, seat cushion's, beer mug's, key chain's, mirror's, pool table light's, glove's, ballcap's, parka's, etc, etc, etc, etc that are being sold this week, all licensed NFL item's..."

I fixed that for you.

Re:120?

[c.derby]

actually, just the opposite.

from the article:

NFL kickers and punters always have new footballs to deal with. In 1999, in order to encourage returns by making it more difficult for a kicker to reach the end zone, the league began using "K-Balls" -- kicking footballs -- that went largely untreated. From the start, they were unpopular with those required to use them, kickers and punters who previously had the ability to knead, scuff, even microwave footballs before using them in games.

Now the K-Balls are handed to them right before the play, leading to those almost comical moments when kickers animatedly squash, punch and push on them just before they are set on a tee.

"The leather isn't cracked," Brown said of a K-Ball. "It's very sharp, the edges are sharp. Sometimes it doesn't feel as if it's aired-up enough. You get a quarterback ball, and that ball's hitting hands, it's popping, it's cracking. The ball expands during the game, so the leather becomes more pliable to your hands. There's a big difference."

Re:120?

[Bing Tsher E]

There's probably at least one 'freak' amongst the players with three. To say nothing about the contingent 'rap-star gangsta' players (the ones whose hair doesn't even fit inside the helmet) who've had one of theirs blown off in a driveby.

Re:120?

[kleptonin]

"... Seahawk's ..."

I fixed that for you.

Re:120?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a bigger moron than you give the original poster credit for.

Why would you add possesive punctuation to parka? The plural for parka is parkas. The plural for hat is hats, the plural for seat cushion is seat cushions. NOT parka's, hat's, and seat cushion's.

The possesive form of these items would need the 's.
IE-You can go buy some parkas, but one of the parka's collars may be damaged.

You did fuck up and forget to make it Seahawk's.

Fucktard

Re:120?

[kubevubin]

"IE-You can go buy some parkas, but one of the parka's collars may be damaged." Actually, that'd be, "You can go buy some parkas, but one of the parkas' collars may be damaged."

Re:120?

[The Ultimate Fartkno]

There's this thing called sarcasm. You should read up on it, as you might encounter it here on the internets.

oh yeah, and...

> You can go buy some parkas, but one of the parka's collars may be damaged.

you = pwned.

Re:120?

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL, pwned, by a third party via quote.
It's still you who has made more grammatical fuck-ups in this thread than anyone else.

Due to your dedicated service, you have been awarded the prestigious title of Grammarian.
Enjoy it fucktard.

Re:120?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ooooh, aren't you a brave li'l AC! You still can't stand the fact that you completely missed the joke, can you? Poor li'l AC. Owned repeatedly, and the best you can do it call people "fucktard." Go whack it over your uptime stats, you sad little otter-pop.

Re:120?

[walstib]

What?!
(2 * 30) + 1 = 121?
where did you get your degree in applied mathmatics?

Tell you what; I will sell you 256 MB RAM chips for $30, but just for you, 2 for $120...

Re:120?

[geofferensis]

Good sir.

If you are male, a quick self examination will indeed confirm that the average male has 2 balls.

Hence 2 teams with 30 players each with 2 balls each is 120. Plus 1 is 121.

((2 * 30) * 2) + 1 = 121

I assumed most people knew that men have two balls. So let me ask you? Where did you get your balls? Because if you have just one you may want to go back to the dealer and get that checked out. Your body may be a lemon, your state may have consumer protection laws that can help you out.

Unless...

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

Someone pilfers the documents from PSA/DNA.

Re:Unless...

[Anonymous Coward]

How can the very first post be Redundant? Do the mods not know what that means? It seems to happen a lot with first posts.

Re:Unless...

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe a fake one will evolve into the correct dna strand, just like roads evolve, and look how simple they are compared to humans.

Re:Unless...

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's my guess on what they did: Make a 21 BP sequence (4,503,599,627,370,496 of 'em), and replicate it several million/billion times to make a large enough amount to put it on the football. Use a flourescent dye to make it glow under that specific light to locate the DNA spot. Make 120 different sequences (odds of randomly picking one of the 120: aproximately 37.5 trillion to 1), put one sequence per ball. The company that did the DNA placement maintains a database of the correct sequences. You send it the sample, they tell you if it's right or not, give you some sort of certificate of authenticity, record the owner, then deny all future validation request with the same DNA sequence but without a direct chain going back to the original sequencer/owner. They do the validation for purchasers for free because they were paid by the NFL to do so.

Perhaps

[CountBrass]

33 trillion to 1? Yeah right. All a counterfeiter needs do is make it glow roughly the same green. No need to actually replicate the DNA sequence: no-one will actually check that anyway!

Re:Perhaps

[Sepodati]

Hell, you just have to imply that it'll glow green and include a little photoshopped picture. Who's going to actually go find this magic light source to make it glow? Hell, you could use a blacklight and Woolite to fool most people.

---John Holmes...

Re:Perhaps

[DigiShaman]

Depends on how much that football actually is worth. Say for example such a football sold for a hundred thousand dollars. In this case, it would be worth paying a few grand to have the DNA sequence tested and verified for authenticity.

Now if it's worth only a grand, chances are some sucker will plunk his cash down without actually going through all the trouble. In such cases, getting away with counterfeiting is much more likely.

Re:Perhaps

[sirnuke]

I hope everyone is aware that this expensive, complex anti-counterfeiting setup is just begging to be broken by some sort of extremely simply method.

Re:Perhaps

[stupidfoo]

Mmmmh... Woolite.

Re:Perhaps

[Plunky]

I hope everyone is aware that this expensive, complex anti-counterfeiting setup is just begging to be broken by some sort of extremely simply method.

Yeah, I bet those pesky Taiwanese have got a flourescent green pig breeding program set up already.

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/1 2/1656250

Re:Perhaps

[RomulusNR]

And who's going to have one of those very specifically-tuned lasers to check them with?

Re:Perhaps

[Walkiry]

1. Get sample of authentic superbowl leather.
2. Use PCR.
3. ???
4. Profit!

Re:Perhaps

[ebuck]

Ok, here we go.

DNA oxidizes, right? I mean I'm just a lowly ex-research biologist who only worked with the stuff for a period of about 3.5 years; however, I wouldn't expect that base sequence pair to hold together for very long.

Plus DNA doesn't glow green (unless they've discovered something new). There are dyes that can work their way into the double helix and make it appear red (due to the dye being red), but shining a laser at DNA would probably result in a lot of disconnected (or abnormally bonded) base pairs, and a broken (or oxidized) ribose backbone.

I'm suspecting that they are actually tagging the DNA covalently with a flourescent marker that glows green. Such "bonded" markers have been available for quite some time (and in a variety of colors), so such dyes would be easily available to the football engineers (hehe) out there. As the parent poster suggested, then all you would have to do is add the marker to the existing DNA on any old football, and apart from sampling and sequencing the DNA, most people would be statisfied at first glance.

Even though DNA sequencing is getting cheaper every day (I imagine a private individual would have to pay a bit more, but in-house services usually charge around $4 to $8 per sample) so cost won't be a factor. However, the results can be forged, and not many people will tolerate "oversampling" of their prized $5000 football. "Excuse me sir, by may I take a slice?"

Finally, the DNA would oxidize over time, leaving less and less material that would test positive.

Provided that the base pair sequence is published (as it would have to be to allow verification), then sequencing it from scratch is a little more expensive, but an everyday task. And don't get into "authentic" vs. "knock-off" molecule debates please: if all of the atoms are in the same places, the orgins of both molecules are indistinguishable.

What would be cooler is to transgenically insert a sequence into pig zygotes that produces a protein which resists oxidation and flouresces with laser light. Then the whole football would glow, but it's glow would increase with intensity of the right wavelength. Players might complain about it being harder to see a slightly glowing football, but such complaints usually fall on deaf ears, and it's not like the football design never changes (or that we lack "neon" footballs today).

Re:Perhaps

[Hal-9001]

And who's going to have one of those very specifically-tuned lasers to check them with?

I've got one on my keychain... :-D

Re:Perhaps

[ebuck]

Especially when the "in-house" cost of sequencing a DNA sample is around four to eight dollars.

Convincing the seller to provide a sample could be tricky, not many want a $100,000 football with a bunch of holes in it from overzealous sampling.

Allowing the seller to post proof of DNA sequence won't work either, lab results could be forged, or he could post credentials for another "valid" football.

Re:Perhaps

[drooling-dog]

All a counterfeiter needs do is make it glow roughly the same green. No need to actually replicate the DNA sequence: no-one will actually check that anyway!

I assume that they're just attaching a flourescent molecule to the DNA so they can find it for sequencing when there's a dispute about authenticity. Of course, there's nothing to stop anyone from sequencing the DNA on an authentic ball, and then synthesizing more DNA with the same sequence. It's only 22 or 23 bases, and you can order customized DNA of that length pretty cheaply from many companies that do that sort of thing.

I'm not sure where they came up with the "33 trillion" figure, though. There are about 17.6 trillion (4^22) possible different 22-base strands, and 70.4 trillion possible 23-base strands...

Re:Perhaps

[K8Fan]

Note: 33 trillion to 1 odds do not apply if the football player in question is OJ Simpson.

Re:Perhaps

[Fred_A]

Someone stupid enough to waste "thousands of dollars" on a misshapen ball should be easy enough to fall for the simplest of forgeries anyway.

Re:Perhaps

[Reziac]

I suppose one could seal the DNA inside plastic, but then you've got to make sure it doesn't break off, etc, etc. -- Sounds like the goal is mainly to stop the short-term fraud, rather than provide durable authenticity verification. (Or if maybe it's a solution in search of a problem. I can't get at TFA at the moment.)

For longterm ID, and simple durability, it might be better to insert a microchip during manufacturing (so it's protected within the ball itself), which could be read by anyone with a scanner. If the chip outputs the right sequence, it's authentic; if not (or if it's absent), it ain't. This tech is already in common use for pet and livestock IDs.

Re:Perhaps

[Anonymous Coward]

The chance of replicating this exact DNA sequence is one in 33 trillion

I'd guess the odds of someone with access to the original material being unscrupulous are much better.

Re:Perhaps

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it "70.4 trillion possible 23-base strands" divided by 2? Wouldn't you need to divide by two because you don't know the orientation of the strand? Or is that unambiguous because of the helix structure?

Re:Perhaps

[Alsee]

Actually the figures are off by a factor of 4. You can flip the strand upside down for a factor of 2, and you can rotate-swap the left and right strands for another factor of two.

So there are about 17.6 trillion different 23-base strands, and about 70.4 trillion different 24-base strands.

Of course none of that in any way helps reach a 33 trillion figure.

-

Re:Perhaps

[drooling-dog]

No, there is a prefered order (5' -> 3') for reading a strand of DNA, so you can't count reversals (if that's what you mean by "flipping upside down"). I.e., a sequence is not equivalent to its inverse. There may be a complementary strand (only if the DNA is double-stranded), so you can halve the odds if that's the case.

But hey - the odds of matching the strand by chance are pretty meaningless, since nobody would seriously try to do it that way...

Re:Perhaps

[Alsee]

Ahhh, thanx. Silly me, I was just thinking in terms of the ATCG letter sequences. It didn't cross my mind that the the amino acids would be oriented in the chain. Obvious now that you pointed it out, grin.

-

Full text

[Bananatree3]

Here's the text of the article for easy read:

DETROIT -- Super Bowl XL comes with a guarantee: Every football -- all 120 of them -- will be dropped.
That is, each will be marked with a drop of synthetic DNA to thwart potential counterfeiters who might be tempted to sell phony "game-used" Super Bowl footballs, which can be worth thousands of dollars. Exposed to a specific laser frequency, the DNA glows to a bright green.
"The ball can change hands a thousand-plus times, but it will never lose that DNA," said Joe Orlando, president of PSA/DNA Authentication Services, a division of Santa Ana-based Collector's Universe Inc., which for the sixth consecutive year marked the Super Bowl footballs. "The chance of replicating this exact DNA sequence is one in 33 trillion, so it's virtually impossible."
The NFL has prepared 10 dozen Wilson footballs for Sunday's game between the Pittsburgh Steelers and Seattle Seahawks and plans to use a new one on every play of the first half, before going to a 12-ball rotation after halftime. It's something the league has done for several Super Bowls, donating some to charity auctions, setting aside others for selected players, coaches and officials, and sending the one used on the opening kickoff to the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
"You have to guard that one like your life depends on it," said Mike Pereira, supervisor of NFL officials.
Some players said they would be holding on a little extra tight too.
Steeler receiver Antwaan Randle El was caught off guard when informed about the continuous shuttle of new pigskin.
"Every play? I didn't know that," he said Wednesday. "That's not good.
"It's slick, it's slippery. Even when you go to tuck it, the ball's prone to come out a little more often than normal."
Added quarterback Charlie Batch, backup for Steeler starter Ben Roethlisberger: "If they're not broken in, that could present a problem. But it shouldn't be a problem for Ben because he wears a glove. I don't think that necessarily would affect him, but that could affect anybody [else] who has to touch the ball. It's a little more slick and the laces aren't broken in."
And the grip is a concern even for those who don't catch or carry the ball.
"You get those new balls that are right out of the bag, that's an issue," said Greg Warren, Pittsburgh's long snapper, whose job it is to accurately hike the ball back on field-goal attempts, conversion kicks and punts. "You just have to make sure you stay focused. Because if that ball slips just a little bit, it makes a big difference.
"For me, if the ball slips out too soon, I'm going to get a real low snap. So I have to be aware of that. But I don't want to grip it too hard, because if you grip it too long it's going to go high."
Said Carolina receiver Steve Smith, who played in the Super Bowl two years ago: "It's no big deal. You can't even tell. We play with new balls all the time."
But New England tight end Christian Fauria, who played in the last two Super Bowls, says of the balls: "Quarterbacks and kickers definitely know the difference between a good one and a bad one.... It's like handing a pitcher a brand-new baseball after every pitch. They like to scuff it up."
To break in the footballs, the NFL uses a machine similar to an electric golf-shoe buffer. It's quicker and more effective than rubbing each by hand.
"They really take the rain protectant off of them, which kind of acts like Vaseline at times," Seattle kicker Josh Brown said. "But as much as we play in bad weather and the rain up there in Seattle, it shouldn't be a problem."
New footballs, old footballs, Seahawk receiver Darrell Jackson said he doesn't have a preference.
"My job is to catch it," he said. "Doesn't matter if it's slick, or if it's wet, or if it doesn't have enough grip on it. Whatever ball's out there, I'll just hold on tight."
Teammate Robbie Tobeck, a center, doesn't seem worried either: "We use new balls every game. I haven't had a problem with it at all."
NFL kickers and punters always have

Re:Full text

[coolgeek]

In a related story, Seattle Seahawks Quarterback Matt Hasselbeck is reported to have been hospitalized follow the game this Sunday for strange growths on his hands and forearms.

Re:Full text

[squoozer]

I thought as a community we were really hot on copyright? How could reposting the whole article ever be considered fair use? I understand why it was done but if we want people to respect the copyright of our work we should respect theirs. The fact that they force you to register to read the article is not an excuse to reprint it - it is the cost of reading the article.

Re:Full text

[N3Bruce]

La Times and their "associates" want to spam and telemarket you even if you opt out of non-affiliates, and they still want your phone #, income, age, sex, address and other sensitive information. Why not just ask for my freaking SSN and bank statements!! Read their privacy policy!

Re:Full text

[Bing Tsher E]

However, the LA times has no way to 'verify' any made up info you give them when registering, and no means of enforcing truthful answers. Rather than gripe about it, we should be actively suggesting to anybody who might register that they employ their creative skills.

Re:Full text

[SirDaShadow]

Even better, copy the link http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-superballs2feb 02,1,7280327.story?track=rss&ctrack=1&cset=true

into google and enjoy :)

Re:Full text

[Anonymous Coward]

The center will never be the same in his 'area'

Re:Full text

[PoopMonkey]

Fortunately like someone else mentioned, it doesn't do any checking. My name to them is "fuck you." and i live at "123 fuck you latimes st." I was born in 1902, and my phone is 111-111-1111. I set up a spamtrap subdomain for sites that require registration, and I just send them to trash. It used to be great when they just wanted an email address and did no checking, I'd use webmaster@their-domain.com.

Re:Full text

[squoozer]

If someone broke the terms of the GPL by we, as a community, would be all over them and calling them for everything because they broke the terms of the license. I can't for one minute believe that the person that reposted the article had permission from the LA Times and therefore he has broken the terms it was released under. There is no difference in the offence commited.

Just because you don't like the terms it doesn't give you the right to ignore them. If you feel it does give you that right then you have to accept that people also have the right to just ignore the GPL. I suggest if you don't like the terms you register your protest by not reading their articles.

Re:Full text

[N3Bruce]

I just got ticked off and used my "back" button. However IIRC, you needed to provide a valid email address to complete the registration process, leaving it open to spam. Time to reactivate my Hotmail account!

DNA on footballs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Eww... doesn't anyone wash their hands anymore?

Fuck LATimes reg; real link.

[Anonymous Coward]

From the horse's mouth:

NFL Again Uses PSA/DNA to Prevent Super Bowl Footballs Fraud

Re:Fuck LATimes reg; real link.

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay boys and girls here is what you do.

Buy a ball. Take the ball and the certifcation paper, book a flight to china. Do a run of 10k each and sell them to private collectors quietly so it doesn't alert the nfl. Infact the less money you charge, the less chance they will bother and take it to a 3rd party for re-authorization.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Billions, so what?

[leob]

Who cares about the probability of replicating the exact sequence? What is the probability that an arbitrary sequence DNA will glow under that light?

Re:Billions, so what?

[Bananatree3]

The DNA they are using glows at a very specific light frequency. I imagine they don't share and tell exactly what that frequency is, though.

Re:Billions, so what?

[TheGuano]

If they don't tell anyone, I guess they're willing to go around testing all 10,000 footballs everyone is thinking about bidding for on ebay.

Re:Billions, so what?

[mpe]

Who cares about the probability of replicating the exact sequence?

If you can get hold of the DNA replicating it becomes rather easier.
This kind of tagging was originally designed for detecting stolen items.

Re:Billions, so what?

[Anonymous Coward]

DNA doesn't "glow green" at all. And if it did, all DNA would, not just DNA with a specific sequence. And if only DNA with a specific sequence glowed green, you could be certain that the sequence would be widely known.

Re:Billions, so what?

[Voltageaav]

They are when they get paid for each and every test.

Re:Billions, so what?

[TheGuano]

But are they getting paid for it? Even more, if it required the damned ball to be sent to them and back every time it's sold, then how well would this process work, anyways? As long as qualified experts are getting the ball for examination, why would they need DNA to verify its authenticity, can't they just verify it with other mundane and proven ways?

The process of how this would need to work if you had to send the ball out to the NFL sounds pretty ineffective to me.

odds

[shr3k]

The chance of replicating this exact DNA sequence is one in 33 trillion

Never tell me the odds!

Re:odds

[drDugan]

a few points

the "odds" only apply if you pick randomly from all possibilities. so, if it's 1 it 33 trillion - don't pick randomly, it won't work.

also, and more important to the thread: if I were creating a mix-n-match physical security technology, then there is a huge similarity to one-time pads; the reason this is interesting is that you can have a unique sequence, or even better a mix of unique sequences on EACH BALL. this is roughly equivalent to putting a difficult to read, long random number on each ball.

I have not looked at the company, but the business model here is in service - to do the authentication because once you've tagged something, you are the only one with the information on what you put on them. you hold on to it, and charge to test physical items.

What about DNA replicating chemicals?

[xtal]

IANA molecular biologist, but isn't there a pretty common process for taking trace DNA, then duplicating it en masse for crime scene investigation?

Re:What about DNA replicating chemicals?

[Da_Biz]

IANA molecular biologist, but isn't there a pretty common process for taking trace DNA, then duplicating it en masse for crime scene investigation?

Neither am I, but I believe this may be what you're referring to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymerase_chain_reac tion

Re:What about DNA replicating chemicals?

[nietsch]

Yes that is a possibility. I am not a molecular biologist anymore, but the reaction you are referring to is the polymerase chain reaction, and it is indeed routine in DNA labs. However, there are two obstacles to overcome: you don't know the start and end sequence of the DNA, and you do not have the actual DNA to start the reaction with.

The claim of 1 in 3 trillion is not likely either: the cost of synthesizing DNA is ~ $1 per base, and I believe they used a length of DNA of ~1Million bp. that would set them back over 1 million just to make the DNA. So it is very likely the did not start with random DNA, making the 1 in so many claim based on the number of basepairs incorrect. (it would probably still be ridiculously high though)

My suggestion would be not to mark them with DNA, but with ricine. It is very easy to detect the genuine balls: everybody that kissed the wrong patch dies a day later. Now that would make the silly sport exiting!

Re:What about DNA replicating chemicals?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no way to make a synthetic DNA that long. It's not about cost. It's about efficiency: Every time you add a base to a synthetic strand, you have at best a 98% efficiency - only 98% of the strands that have made it this far get the base added to them. What's 0.98^(1 million)? It's 1.2x10^(-8774). That number is small enough to equal zero complete strands actually being made. Even if you're only making 100 bp, the efficiency can be 10% or lower.

Re:What about DNA replicating chemicals?

[nietsch]

Very true indeed. But you can splice them together with restriction enzymes etc. Cutting and pasting DNA was pretty common in my time at uni.

Re:What about DNA replicating chemicals?

[Alsee]

It's called polymerase chain reaction, but it doesn't work on on these footballs because... uhhh.... they're magic fish based footballs... with uhhh... phase rotated energy shields and... uhhh.... like that.

So don't try it. It won't work.

-

Re:Ewwwwww

[hmccabe]

Who would want to buy a football stained with semen, not to mention pummeled and pounced up on by almost two dozen sweaty heavy guys for two hours non-stop?

Call to get your drapes redone, ask him.

They'd better...

[Anonymous Coward]

I imagine they don't share and tell exactly what that frequency is, though

If they don't then I'll just break out my blacklight and a bottle of Woolite(TM)

;-)

Really though, it's just something else to sell to the suckers buying the balls. As if selling 120 footballs wasn't making them buckets of cash, guess who's going to sell you the laser to verify authenticity. So now, counterfeiters can make double the money too. They just need to counterfeit a ball and laser too.

Business plan

[pgfuller]

1) Purchase legitimate game ball for 'thousands' 2) Extract DNA sequence and replicate using PCR or actually sequence it and then create more 3) ... 4) Profit !

Re:Business plan

[Sepodati]

Just use Woolite and a black light and you'll fool most people. You'll be able to skip to the "4)Profit!" stage quicker!

---John Holmes...

Re:Business plan

[pgfuller]

Nah. When you are inevitably accused of forgery, you get the NFL or PSA / DNA Authentication Services to verify that the balls (all thousands of them) are legitimate. Thus avoiding 5) Go to gaol.

Re:Business plan

[drDugan]

see my post above

more than likely they have a unique sequence or mix of sequences on each ball

PSA / DNA Authentication Services Methodology

[faceword]

1) Slaughter a pig.
2) Slice the hide into 120 footballs.
3) Serve the leftovers as bacon during the pre-game tailgate.

All the footballs have the same DNA.

The glow is related to the discount the company received by purchasing from Chernobyl pig farmers.

Re:PSA / DNA Authentication Services Methodology

[rts008]

Oh, man....
I can't believe you left out:
4.?????
5. Profit

I can tell by your #635817 that I can't accuse you of being new here (compared to my own #812749), but duuuude! Come on man, where is your /. spirit?

p.s. having done the pig butchering scene as a youngster, don't forget the pork rinds!

Re:PSA / DNA Authentication Services Methodology

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they realised that the Tech Bubble burst back in 2001 and trying to keep an ancient gag satirising it limping along five years just isn't worth the time.

(Then again, Slashdot is just about the only place where the "In Soviet Russia..." joke still gets an outing and moderated up. There may still be a decade's worth of tired, unfunny recycled "??? Profit" renditions still to left go... Heaven help us.)

Re:PSA / DNA Authentication Services Methodology

[someone1234]

No need to go to chernobyl, what do you think why those green glowing pigs were invented last month?

Re:PSA / DNA Authentication Services Methodology

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia, jokes never grow old!

...damn, they're foolish.

[rincebrain]

What the hell is stopping a counterfitting group from sequencing the DNA and replicating it?

I mean, they're willing to go the distance to make the balls looks authentic, it can be done.

Re:...damn, they're foolish.

[patio11]

Screw sequencing it. All you need to do is get a sample, mix it in with polychromase, and add a little heat to PCR the heck out of it. Its a laboratory procedure that high school science students can complete -- I should know, because I did it in AP biology. Congratulations, you know have a big container of paste that glows green under a specific frequency of light, for less than $100 in easily available ingridients (Popular Science magazine probably sells do-it-yourself-DNA-experiment-kits in the back). Add in one football and you're done.

Re:...damn, they're foolish.

[Last_Available_Usern]

Now that you're done trying to make us think you're so smart and they're so stupid, where do you propose to get the sample of the DNA?

Re:...damn, they're foolish.

[JohnFluxx]

It's on the ball. Just buy an authentic ball, replicate the dna, put it on lots of balls, see lotsof 'authentic' balls. profit.

Re:...damn, they're foolish.

[drDugan]

DUH

they probably won't putthe same sequence on every one

Re:Whow...

[Anonymous Coward]

So are computer IMO.

Not a zero sum game.....

[Brian_Ellenberger]

"At least the we know where the United States' priorities are. War? Famine? Fuck that, let's support a sport so they can put synthetic DNA on a football. Sorry, but sports are valued entirely too fucking much imo."

Why do people always have to view things in zero-sum terms. Just because research is going into something entertaining like sports doesn't mean it won't translate into other usages. We have spent millions and millions of dollars into figuring out how to make athletes perform better and fix them when they are hurt. This has translated into practical, useful things such as Gatorade and much better procedures for knee and shoulder injuries. The NFL anti-counterfiting measures may turn out to be useful in the future for things such as legal documents.

I think people have a bias against science and research that is not done for "the love of knowledge" itself. The truth is that most of our progress comes from necessity, and many times this necessity is a manufactured necessity rather than a real one. Sometimes it is war research, sometimes sports, sometimes other entertainment such as video games. These things merely provide opportunities for challenges to overcome.

Re:Not a zero sum game.....

[Red Flayer]

"The truth is that most of our progress comes from necessity, and many times this necessity is a manufactured necessity rather than a real one. Sometimes it is war research, sometimes sports, sometimes other entertainment such as video games. These things merely provide opportunities for challenges to overcome." (emphasis mine)

I am in total agreement with you. I'd much rather have research funds going to how to tag pigskins than how to kill more efficiently.

Not only that, but sports produce trade. Just one more diversification in an economy.

Re:Not a zero sum game.....

[AstrumPreliator]

I didn't mean to imply the technology was useless. It may very well have good applications. Putting synthetic DNA on a football is not a good application. I was actually ready to burn some karma on that comment as I'm very against sports where a guy gets paid millions to toss a ball or anything along those lines. Priorities are absolutely terrible in 1st world countries. I mean I know leisure activities are important but I don't think they're as important as we make them out to be. I would much rather go play a game of football than watch one.

I'd like to note that if a certain technology is needed it will be developed, manufactured need or not.

Re:Not a zero sum game.....

[trumpetboy8282]

Welcome to capitalism.

Re:Not a zero sum game.....

[kfg]

This has translated into practical, useful things such as Gatorade. . .

Otherwise known as "Florescent Sugar Water."

With a pinch of salt.

Took nearly minutes of research to whip that up.

KFG

Re:Not a zero sum game.....

[The Wooden Badger]

Took minutes to develop Gatorade, but I'm spending my lifetime appreciating that little stroke of genius. And Bobby Boucher's coach was actually right, Gatorade is better than water.

Re:Not a zero sum game.....

[Mr. Flibble]

I agree with your sentiment about organized sports, therefore, I almost hate to bring about this little counterpoint of logic.

Your argument against the amount paid to a top sports player is basically a Short Term/Long Term fallacy, a subset of "Excluded Middle".

The reason a guy gets paid millions to toss a ball, or something similar is because millions of fans watch. They pay for viewing, they watch ads, hell, they have tailgate parties prior to games, and you can bet they buy a good deal of merchandise for those parties alone. Organized sports is big business, and having popular players (those who can throw the ball well) brings in added revenue for the teams that can win. Just take a look at the prices of the footballs in the article!

It boils down to money. The team owners/franchises want to make more money, the fans want to see more/better games, and are happy to spend their money to do so.

Ironically, when I was in Africa in 1990 building a medical clinic, all the locals loved playing soccer, and whenever a newspaper was around, everyone gawked over the world soccer scores. It was near religion to them. They also had a better knowledge of North American boxing than I ever have had. And yet, many of these people owned only one set of clothes, and most did not have electricity, and certanly not any clean water.

And so, these very people I was trying to help were caught up in organized sports, where, as you say the funds from the massive North American endevours could be used to help the people in Africa. You are right of course, but it seems that people everywhere, on the average are sports nuts. This does not make people bad, it just makes them human.

We, the slashdot geeks are a different breed.

Re:Not a zero sum game.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you not noticed the connection between large scale sporting events (the Superbowl, Olympics, etc) and much needed boosts in the economy surrounding said events? Entire cities clean up and gear up in anticipation of these events, and when they do eventually come around local businesses score with all the additional city traffic. It's economics, man.

Re:Not a zero sum game.....

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'd much rather have research funds going to how to tag pigskins than how to kill more efficiently."

Because we all know that those are the only two things that you can possibly do with millions of dollars.... Paying some uneducated idiot millions of dollars to toss around a football is a damn travesty. You know something is drastically wrong when doctors and teachers barely have enough money to raise a family comfortably while these retards are riding around in Bentley's throwing millions of dollars around like it's nothing. Our priorities are so fucked up it's truly disgusting.

Re:Not a zero sum game.....

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

what you fail to realize is that we as a country only pay thier salaries if we actually buy the tickets, buy the official products, watch the games on tv, etc.

So let sports nuts blow thier cash on that. I'll spend my money on something else.

Re:Not a zero sum game.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, you clearly are against actors as well, Hollywood and stuff.

Re:Not a zero sum game.....

[Bing Tsher E]

It's also worth mentioning that organized spectator (and also participatory) sports helps vent out the aggressive tendencies in big lanky tards. Give 'em something to shout about and they will do less damage in the real world, in real conflicts.

And better yet, when they do then break out in violence, it will be fan-against-fan violence in the grandstand. Nothing is more refreshing to a nerd than to hear that two of the hooligans who slammed him against the locker in High School have broken each other's noses over sports bullshit.

It will be refreshing if this is the only mention on Slashdot of that TV Show (the 'Superbowl') that they're running tomorrow. Not that I'm that hopeful. There are people here who worship advertising (i.e. Google Worship, since Google has essentially degenerated into an advertising firm) so I am certain there will be 'discussions' of the advertisements placed around the TV Show they're broadcasting Sunday.

Re:Not a zero sum game.....

[AeroIllini]

Otherwise known as "Florescent Sugar Water."

With a pinch of salt.

Took nearly minutes of research to whip that up.

Just because the implimentation is easy, doesn't mean the idea is not revolutionary. It took someone (Dr. Robert Cade, actually) to realize that athletes lose all kinds of nutrients during aerobic activites, not just water, to spark the idea of Gatorade. No one had thought about that before. Almost all successful inventions seem simple in retrospect, which is probably why they were so successful.

Take the idea of the airbag for instance: a very simple implimentation. Inflatable bag, explosive canister of compressed air, sensor in the car. But the idea was revolutionary when it first debuted. "Holy cow! People can survive accidents if we give them an inflatible pillow that only opens during an accident!"

It seems simple now, but was quite revolutionary at the time.

Re:Not a zero sum game.....

[kfg]

athletes lose all kinds of nutrients during aerobic activites, not just water

Why do you think salt is considered so precious in the tropics? That, water and a couple of bananas works better than Gatorade. Even hits the blood stream just as fast.

And Gatorade doesn't have "all kinds of nutrients" in it. It's got sugar and salt, a bit of sodium and a bit of potasium. For a drink that replaces what you lose drink E.R.G. It was actually biochemist Bill Gookin, after crashing and burning on Gatorade in an Olympic marathon, who had the perspicacity to investigate and find out there was more than salt involved.

Dr. Cade was a man working outside of his field who discovered something that a lot of people had known for a long, long time and didn't actually advance the field. Hell, in the late 1800s athletes even drank Coke with plain water and took salt. Of course it had a "little something extra" in it back then. A six day bicycle race will teach you more about how to keep going than a century of football. A football game hardly lasts long enough to drive the message home. You can "tough it out." You can even "tough out" a marathon if you have to. You can't "tough out" a six day past the first day.

I'm old enough to remember when there was no Gatorade, and I already knew that any man heading into the jungle/desert worth his salt took salt and water with him.

And a bit of fresh sugarcane to go with it if available.Sugar cubes if not. I can't help it if some of the jocks weren't paying attention.

KFG

Hot air

[duinsel]

There are probably nuggets of truth in the claim, but first of all DNA does not glow green. Perhaps they used fancy synthetic nucleotide analogs with a fluorescent label? Otherwise, they just spiked cheap marker dye into the mix, separate from the DNA. Furthermore, though a laser of the proper frequency (color) can definately make a fluorescent dye glow green, this is hardly something only a laser can do. Any source of (probably blue-ish) light will do. But of course 'blue flashlight' sounds not nearly as cool as 'laser of a specific frequency'.

Re:Hot air

[Anonymous Coward]

It depends exactly how they did it; while expensive, there are now quantum dot labeling techniques that allow you to create a fluorescent label that will give a characteristic fluorescence at only one single frequency. If you used simple GFP, then a wider range of light would probably work, but there are certainly technologies available now that allow very specific labeling.

The point of needing a laser is more that if you tune it to a specific frequency, it's likely that shining a flashlight at it will give such a diverse spectrum that the single frequency signal will be washed away.

Re:Hot air

[tengwar]

I think what they've done is to splice in the "GFP" (green fluorescent protein) gene. This is derived from jelly-fish and is commonly used as a debugging tool to test whether a vector (a virus modified to transplant genes) is working before they add the new payload. Even so, the DNA will not glow of itself, so I'm finding it difficult to see the point.

$5.00 PayPal Donation...

[quokkapox]

To the first person who sends me a photograph of a wealthy net-savvy Nigerian businessman smiling and holding up a genuine fake Super Bowl XXL Football.

The U.S. has a huge trade deficit. Why aren't we exporting this junk?

Re:$5.00 PayPal Donation...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because no-one else wants it.

Re:$5.00 PayPal Donation...

[stud9920]

because no one else is interested in you bizarre sports

Re:$5.00 PayPal Donation...

[TubeSteak]

To the first person who sends me a photograph of a wealthy net-savvy Nigerian businessman smiling and holding up a genuine fake Super Bowl XXL Football.

I see this being a Fark Photoshop Contest next week.

I'll take those odds

[Red Flayer]

"The chance of replicating this exact DNA sequence is one in 33 trillion, so it's virtually impossible."

I'm not saying that the chances of replicating the exact sequence are good, but you figure people involved in sport would know better than to assign odds that long.

Working from known sequences that fluoresce under laser stimulation, I bet they could narrow the odds down, to say, oh, a billion to one. Not that it matters, since what they'll be testing is not the base sequence, but instead whether laser + pig bladder = fluorescence.

So beating their test just means guessing the frequency of the laser.

I'll bet $100 on 100,000 different reproducable frequencies ($10M in bets) and I figure one of them will hit... even if they take a 5% vig, I'm still making out with 3.135 QUADRILLION dollars.

Take that, Dr. Evil.

Re:I'll take those odds

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not saying that the chances of replicating the exact sequence are good...

Except for the fact that the blueprint for making new DNA is the DNA included with every football?

odds for random or deliberate attempt??

[daveb]

leaving aside that all you need for a curde fake is to make something that glows - ideally (but not necessarily for some greedy suckers) under the right light - yes LEAVING that ...

Is that 33 trillion to one the odds of a random sequence duplicating it - or is it the odds of someone who knows what they are doing, and with intent, being able to duplicate the sequence?

It sounds like someone was pulling random, or irrelevent, numbers out of his RC

but then IANADNAS :)

Re:odds for random or deliberate attempt??

[The Wooden Badger]

It just occurred to me: There are only 4 nucleotide bases in DNA, so they give the ballpark figure of how long the strand of DNA is. That was awful helpful of them. They just pulled back on the trigger of their 9mm and shot themselves in the foot. And I bet someone on the inside just sells the "recipe" to the highest bidder.

Re:odds for random or deliberate attempt??

[John Newman]

Your intuition is right on. It must be about a 22-23 nucleotide oligomer. 4^22 = 18 trillion or so. Like someone else said, DNA doesn't glow green, so they either used tagged nucleotides or just spiked their DNA-containing ink with a green fluorescent dye. The dye, I suspect, is just so they know where they put the DNA without having to actually discolor the ball.

You'd be amazed if you knew what their profit margin must be. Oligos like that cost about 10 bucks for enough to probably detectably tag all 120 footballs, and you can synthesize any sequence you want. A couple of bucks for that fluoresence dye, some ink, and I bet it costs them about a quarter a ball altogether. You could even do this sort of thing yourself for not much more. Most DNA synthesis companies will happily do business with private citizens. The only substantial cost would be verifiying an object that someone brings in, but even that just requires a half-decent molecular biology tech and some not-too-expensive equipment. You don't need to actually sequence the thing to verify that it matches a reference sample - you can just cheaply and quickly test binding affinity. I'll bet they charge for verification, anyway. So this whole scheme is probably the next-best thing to printing money.

(IAAMB - molecular biologist)

Re:odds for random or deliberate attempt??

[mpe]

Like someone else said, DNA doesn't glow green, so they either used tagged nucleotides or just spiked their DNA-containing ink with a green fluorescent dye. The dye, I suspect, is just so they know where they put the DNA without having to actually discolor the ball.

Or they simply went and bought a marking kit from somewhere like Smart Water http://www.smartwater.com/

From the you-oughtta-know-me-by-now Dept

[LouisZepher]

1 in 33 trillion is still only a finite improbability, and now that I know the figures, I just need a cup of really hot tea and I'll have myself a goldmine of counterfeit footballs...

Hypocrite

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are you whining on Slashdot when you could be helping miserable children in Ethiopa who are starving?

What are YOUR priorities?

Re:Hypocrite

[heinousjay]

Selfishly getting educated to make money instead of heading off to a place where you're needed and putting in the labor necessary to get something done? For shame, hypocrite. Your priorities are borne from the comfort of college, and everyone knows how easy it is to look down from that ivory tower. For shame.

Re:Ewwwwww

[Anonymous Coward]

Christina Aguilera?

Oh, goody.

[Moofie]

Good thing we got that stupid cancer thing all cured, and we can move on to the important stuff!

Any moron who's willing to spend $zillions on a football deserves to get rooked.

Re:Oh, goody.

[mrpeebles]

Now if only we had a seedless watermelon...

Re:Oh, goody.

[Anonymous Coward]

Go outside.

Find places where people converge.

Take a good long look around.

Answer : 'They' have.

Now, look in a mirror.

Re:Oh, goody.

[Moofie]

What ARE you talking about?

yay

[Anonymous Coward]

Just another weapon in the war on terror...

Re:Whow...

[Moofie]

I agree with you that sports are valued too much, but you're pretty silly to assert that the United States had anything much to do with this ridiculous invention. It was a private company looking to take advantage of peoples' rapacious, irrational interest in "authenticity".

If the Franklin Mint can create authenticity, it must not be that valuable.

Re:Whow...

[barfooz]

Yes, I know it is essential that everyone in this country devote every single second of their lives to curing famine and realizing world peace. It's called entertainment, and people appreciate it.

Re:Whow...

[AstrumPreliator]

When I said the United States I meant it's citizenship.

And for the rest of us?

[Indy Media Watch]

Exposed to a specific laser frequency, the DNA glows to a bright green. 'The chance of replicating this exact DNA sequence is one in 33 trillion,' said the president

And the chances of a potential purchaser having the specific laser to verify their purchase? About one in 35 trillion...

Re:Whow...

[Moofie]

I'm a citizen, and I think this is really stupid. I suspect there are several other people like me. Therefore, you're painting with an overbroad brush.

If you'd said "sports fanatics", I'd have no argument with you. But you went for the "Gosh, aren't Americans dumb?" angle, which never fails to annoy me.

But...

[marcosc]

"All 120 Super Bowl XL footballs will be marked with a drop of synthetic DNA to thwart potential counterfeiters who might be tempted to sell phony game-used Super Bowl footballs, which can be worth thousands of dollars. Exposed to a specific laser frequency, the DNA glows to a bright green."

I wonder what it will cost to get it exposed to that specific laser frequency... a few extra hundred dollars, perhaps? This may defeat the actual point of using the synthetic DNA in the first place: it's hidden cost.

Not only that...

[The Wooden Badger]

my bet is that the odds stated in the article are for guessing the sequence. The tech is cool, but the retards deciding on using the tech could use some work.

Little Green Footballs

[DigiShaman]

Little Green Footballs.

Now only if I can look at them in peace. Those Islamo-Fascists are going to ruin my Superbowl Sunday.

LOL NOT BANNED LOL

[LOL NOT BANNED LOL]

LOL NOT BANNED LOL

Go Natural

[truckaxle]

Am I missing something here? Why not just make the pig skins from green pigs in the first place. Try replicating that in your backyard.

LOL ANOTHER ACCOUNT

[LOL ANOTHER ACCOUNT]

LOL ANOTHER ACCOUNT

Re:LOL ANOTHER ACCOUNT

[Obsi]

LOL INTARWEB

Not a Challenge

[Marko DeBeeste]

OJ Duped a jury using identical odds

Who cares?

[mh101]

If someone's stupid enough to pay thousands of dollars to buy a football just because it was supposedly used in a Superbowl game, then they deserve it if they get conned.

Similarly, I don't get all these auctions where an article of clothing sells for huge sums of money simply because a celebrity wore it once. Why's it suddenly worth so much more than getting the exact same thing from a store?

Re:Who cares?

[OctoberSky]

It shouldn't be "who cares" but more "Why does the NFL care?"

Seriously, I could go into how they should be focused on making sure all the Refs are ready and that the Instant Replay is ready, but put that aside and question why the NFL is making sure that game balls are authentic.

I mean, why do they care? Do they make money off eBay? Do they make money off of the ball 30 years from now when it sells for tens-of-thousands at Sotheby's? Why is the NFL putting money into this, just to say that thier balls can't be faked?

Re:Who cares?

[greginnj]

Jeepers, you know nothing about business. Did you see the line in TFA where they said that a number of balls from the first half would be donated to charity? They get the good will of making valuable donations to many charities, for the cost of a few footballs.

Not to mention that there's a tax deduction for the value of the footballs donated -- which you can bet will be set at the auction price the charity gets, not by the purchase price for the football.

More generally, the league's job is to promote football; one of the ways to do that is to keep the memorabilia market hyped and excitable. Increasing the perceived value of all the league's products.

Re:Who cares?

[An Onerous Coward]

If anything, this makes it easier to snooker people.

Before: You had a football you want to pawn off as an "authentic Superbowl XXXXVIICLM ball". How did you convince your buyer that it was the real deal? Dunno.

Now: You have a football you want to pawn off. How do you convince your buyer? Shine a bit of green light on it, and watch it glow back at you. Cha-ching!

Didn't anyone anywhere look at this plan and think, "so the idea is to take a football, and make it unduplicatable by smearing on some stringy goop (DNA) whose sole purpose is to be easily duplicated?"

Complete, utter moronicallishness.

Re:Who cares?

[Ph33r th3 g(O)at]

Not to mention that there's a tax deduction for the value of the footballs donated -- which you can bet will be set at the auction price the charity gets, not by the purchase price for the football.

Wouldn't it be required in order for them to take a deduction exceeding the $20 or so they actually paid for the football, for them to declare the difference between that $20 and the charity auction price as income, making it a wash?

Re:Who cares?

[greginnj]

Shit... I've got to redo my taxes, then.

Re:Who cares?

[Ph33r th3 g(O)at]

I recall that there is at least an exception to that for a donation of stock -- you can take the higher value without having to pay tax on the increase in value of the stock. If you're serious, obviously consult a tax advisor :).

Re:Nice Odds..

[stupidfoo]

So you're saying I have a chance.

I'm OK with this as long as they don't

[advocate_one]

try and patent it... the Devil has prior art... he get's people to sign the contract with their own blood

Re:I'm OK with this as long as they don't

[Anonymous Coward]

My keyboard has prior art too.

Re:I'm OK with this as long as they don't

[advocate_one]

I can concur with that sentiment... time to swap out the dirty with the clean...

Re:Nice Odds..

[BlackErtai]

Let me guess, you're one of those guys trying to get linux running on a cardboard box and a box of Kleenex, aren't you?

Auctions

[inferno10]

You know, I think I saw a blue dress that has been marked with authentic presidential DNA for sale on eBay recently.

It glows white when exposed to a forensics flashlight.

Completely Unnecessary

[mosb1000]

Yeah, who needs entertainment? I'm going to get off of this stupid, pointless forum and do some real, important work. Thank you for pointing out the folly of my foolish ways, from now on I resolve to do nothing but work.

Re:Whow...

[mpe]

I agree with you that sports are valued too much, but you're pretty silly to assert that the United States had anything much to do with this ridiculous invention.

Dosn't look quite that way if you read this article http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/ 20060131/SPORTS0106/601310310/1126/SPORTS0101

Sports salaries

[Anonymous Coward]

The other thing about sports salaries is that they're essentially a whole career of pay over a short period. Bigtime pro athletes are paid millions to toss a ball around, sure, but it's very hard to do that right. They can only earn the big bucks for maybe ten years. Varies depending on the sport.

It's still a lot of money and it's still a huge benefit to them to have it all up front this way because they can start investing it, but it's not *as* out of line with normal careers as people tend to think.

If you start in on a programming career at twenty and you work for forty-five years, moving to management as appropriate, you'll probably earn about, what, two to eight million total? And that's without a fan base of tens of millions of people who care about your every daily move or pulled muscle.

I'd say your average NFL football player is at least ten times as important to society as your average programmer, even though I hate watching sports. If they're going to get their whole career earnings of twenty to eighty million in one big bunch that really isn't inappropriate.

Re:Sports salaries

[Dahamma]

Sounds like a nice analysis in theory, but in practice the ones making the really big bucks (the "$3M to toss a ball around" quarterback type) don't EVER stop earning (commercials, endorsements, speeches/conventions, broadcasting, etc). The ones who didn't make the big bucks can't afford to retire after 4 years of work (the average NFL career) any more than you or I.

I know a couple guys from college who played pro football - I would be surprised if they ever made more than $300k a year for all of the 3-4 years they played before getting injured and/or cut. Luckily they were smart guys who actually got something out of their free college education so went onto I-banking, various entrempeneurial activities, managing family business, etc. But the majority of ex-players who weren't as educated or connected can have a really hard time...

Relevent article on this from last week:

http://www.dailyrecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A ID=/20060129/SPORTS/601290350/1002

I played flag football once

[TallMatthew]

With these guys using a football one of them claimed was used in the Redskins/Broncos Super Bowl and in fact by Tim Smith, during one of his two touchdown runs.

Man, I hope he didn't put any of his DNA on that ball.

Security through obscurity (sort of) and human eng

[bobdotorg]

I'll bet that the odds are less than 33 trillion to one that you could bribe someone who works for the synthetic DNA company to pilfer a sample for you.

Re:Nice Odds..

[neoform]

Let me guess, you're one of those guys who hears "Give me a second" and actually counts to one..

Re:Ewwwwww

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, football sounds like it's a lot more fun than I used to think it was.

Viagra is a Superbowl Sponser...

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

Lets do the math...

120 footballs + 10 cheerleaders = Sticky Balls.

The NFL can party like no other.

Not that hard!

[VincenzoRomano]

'The chance of replicating this exact DNA sequence is one in 33 trillion'

... unless you already know exactly the sequence itself. It's as hard as opening the combination lock of a safe: it's quite simple if you already know the combination!
So one could steal the combination and replicate it in a snap. And the combintion itslef could be a simple file stored in an unsecure system.
It'd be better to educate people about the real value of a used dirty football ball!

33 trillion x 130

[Anonymous Coward]

if actually making the balls counts as replication of the DNA, did they really have to make 4,920,000,000,000,000 footballs first just to get 130 correct ones?

Wow. That is an achievement that all mankind could be proud of. I just hope we have some living space left on the planet.

1 in 33 Million, more like 1 in 1

[ebuck]

I think our friend needs to take a course in probability. Or maybe biology, or perhaps common sense.

If the DNA is replicated enough times to be placed on 120 different footballs, then the chance of replicating it has been proven by example, so it's basically 100%.

The chance of replicating it without knowledge of it's base pairs is much lower, but if you can get a sample of the DNA (come in contact with a valid game ball), you can easily replicate it 100% without even knowing the sequence. After all, your replicate DNA in your own body tissues without knowledge of the sequence, and similar techniques have been used in the lab for a few decades now.

Poor lab tech

[nanoakron]

Unique DNA signature?

I fail to see how getting some poor lab worker to masturbate over 120 footballs is going to prevent crime?

-Nano.

(-1, BNP)

[Anonymous Coward]

Fucking cunts.

Let's hope no mad scientist obtains one...

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what those raiders would do with it. What would the goal of creating such a human-football hybrid be? Something noble? Something upright? Would the hybrid have Down's syndrome? A human-football hybrid would obviously endure much emotional pain as it would get kicked around a lot. No, this must be stopped. At the grassroots level. The playing field must be kept level for traditional, genetic humans. We don't need a national conference on it, the answer is obvious. DNA plus football equals abuse. That's not a winning strategy for humanity. I know I'm raven about it till I'm all redskin, but I can't bear it. It maddens just to think about it. Please staubach while I cool my jets.

Re:Little Green Footballs (offtopic)

[Anonymous Coward]

Great site! I liked the fake "Behead those who say islam is violent" sign.

Actual DNA company

[cam_macleod]

PSA/DNA is just a partner of Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada-based DNA Technologies. They've done the Super Bowl footballs for years, NHL All-Star Game pucks, even the 2000 Olympics.

Pig DNA

[phanophish]

Why not just sequence the DNA of the leather? Pigs have DNA too.

As difficult as

[Anonymous Coward]

My goodness !

    They're right ! This will making copies fo such objects as difficult as... as... copying movies !!! ("good grief*")

    And... what's to stop counterfitters from merely 'cloning' them ?

    Really now.

Because we all know Islam is a religion of peace

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean, Muslims would never threaten anyone who might criticise Islam or desecrate their "sacred" icons with violence?

Right?

Muslims wouldn't have riots in Muslim lands if someone in Europe were to actually exercise free speech and publish cartoons showing Mohammed in a-less-than-glowing light, would they?

I mean, it's not like they put a crucifix with Christ in a buck of piss, now is it? Lordy, the fundies when berserk then, burning cars, taking hostages and beheading them, blowing up pizza parlors with suicide bombers, hijacking airplanes and killing thousands, threatening to kill all the Jooooos...

Islam isn't like that at all. :-P

Re:Ewwwwww

[Anonymous Coward]

a lot more fun than I used to think it was.

Just to let you know, we have this thing called "past tense." It's a way of condensing down those cumbersome phrases like "more fun than I used to think it was" into the handy "more fun than I thought."

Slashdotters are just to smart....

[3seas]

here is the real purpose:

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/ 04/1422255&threshold=0

Re:Ewwwwww

[Anonymous Coward]

That reminds me of an ex girlfriend...

Fact stranger than fiction

[Flower]

Guess they must have forgot the bacon and just went for the pigskin.

Why waste scientific advances on this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why pander to overpaid men throwing leather?

This is related to a topic I sometimes think about. It makes me indignant when stupid people abuse technology they could never themselves create. Take backward muslim religion-crazed countries that steal nuclear technology. Their own backward policies could never lift them much above the animals. They have no right taking the products of true humans' intelligence.

Or think about rock-dumb killers who use guns. They never could discipline their minds to create firearms. They have no idea how it works, but they can easily shoot a math professor.

There's no point to this rant, just makes me mad.

Ways to get around this security... so what!

[RexRhino]

Yeah, there are ways to get around this security. You could get a sample of the DNA, resynthesize it, then manufacture a duplicate ball, and create a fake.

But the cost of counterfiet is greater than the $2000 the ball is going to go for. Which makes it a succesful deterent.

Re:Whow...

[Moofie]

How exactly does that make it look less ridiculous?

glow in the dark

[TubeSteak]

What would be cooler is to transgenically insert a sequence into pig zygotes that produces a protein which resists oxidation and flouresces with laser light.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4605 202.stm

Scientists in Taiwan say they have bred three pigs that "glow in the dark".

They claim that while other researchers have bred partly fluorescent pigs, theirs are the only pigs in the world which are green through and through

Here's a direct link to the glowing pigs picture

Pretty cool, eh?

Re:...damn, you're wrong.

[Anonymous Coward]

While you may have taken AP biology, you clearly didn't pay too much attention - at least not to the molecular biology component.

1. Mix it in with polychromase
I'll give you credit that you looked up what the initials PCR mean.
If you don't mind me asking, where can I pick up some polychromase?
2. DNA doesn't inherently glow green. You'll need to add a component such as CyberGreen to the reaction.
3. Random primers won't give you an exact replica - you'll need to sequence first.
4. Realistically, you'll never obtain enough DNA from PCR to get "a big container of paste". If you want a small pellet of DNA, you'd be much better off cloning the DNA into a vector, growing it up in come competent cells, extracting the DNA, and then digesting out the portion you want.

It's quite sad that such an ignorant and incorrect post got modded up.

Two jokes...

[ajservo]

There's easily two jokes outta this one.

Isn't it funny that a man will purchase balls to place on his mantle when his wife already keeps the pair he use to have there?

(rimshot followed by silence)

Thank you...

And finally...

Who goes shopping for footballs with lasers? I mean you don't see me going to walmart and be all like, "Hey, it says genuine Hanes brand socks. I gotta hit that with a laser before it's going in my basket..."

Okay, you've been a great crowd...

Re:Nice Odds..

[Anonymous Coward]

1

snort!