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Salary Negotiation for an IT Position?
HerculesMO asks: "I am a Windows Systems Administrator and work for a pretty large corporation. I know that I'm underpaid for what I do, and as such, I've been looking for another position. The problem is however, that a lot of potential positions ask for what you are currently making -- and it's a bargaining chip that the company I interview with will (and have) used to negotiate salary." Given that businesses usually base the salaries of new hires on their previous job, how can one arrange a fair salary if they were badly underpaid?
"I'm currently in a series of interviews with a company that I really like, the work environment, people seem young and friendly (like myself), and the business is something I wouldn't hate doing. I'm well qualified for the work, and their director already likes me. I just feel that, if I accept the position, I won't be able to bargain my way up to the market rate for the position, given it's such a leap from what I currently make. In New York, many of the companies require the disclosure of salary so just 'saying no' locks me out of a lot of potential positions."
Never tell them what you currently earn. Just tell them what sort of range you're looking for. If it's the kind of organisation that's worth working for, they'll understand that this is the relevant piece of information for you to provide anyway and not even question it.
If they start trying to dig, politely decline to tell them, saying that you don't think it's relevant and/or that you feel it's inappropriate to discuss the specific details of a professional relationship with another employer. (In some places, talking about salaries is bizarrely taboo, and most businesses will respect that the same way they'd respect you if you declined to talk about specifics of previous work because of a confidentiality clause: they'd hope for the same professional conduct if you were leaving them and working for someone else.)
If they persist even then, then they're the kind of place that pays what it can get away with and not what it should pay on merit, and you probably don't want the job anyway.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Companies can call, and sometimes will, call other companies and ask about your employment with them. They will try and get as much information as possible. Some companies will reveal your salary, and if that happens you're screwed.
"I'm currently making $X, but I believe that's below the market rate for my type of work and I really am looking for more like $Y."
If $Y is a reasonable number and you stick to your guns, you can probably get them to offer it.
Alternatively, if you don't particularly care about being honest, you could always just say "I'm currently making $Y" and there will never, ever be any way they'll ever know the difference. However, I think the first approach is more straightforward and just as effective.
-- Mark
I am so very sorry for you...
Tell them what you're making, and make it clear that the reason why you're looking for a new job is because you're aware that you're severely underpaid. Make it very clear that you will not accept a salary below whatever the standard is, or whatever it is that you want. You're in an advantagous position here, you already have a job and are currently well established so you can afford to be picky.
Tell them how much you think you should earn. If they don't agree then go see what the marketplace will pay you by getting another job offer somewhere else. If you're seriously open to working at a new job then tell your employer you'll leave them and take the other job unless you get paid what you're worth, assuming you still want to work at your current employer.
That is the single worst advice you could follow. People jump around in the IT industry. The same people all know each other, or are friends of friends with each other. People may have met at previous jobs or even during interviews. If you think there is zero connection between your prospective employer and your current boss, that's a big assumption to make. If you think you can get away with lying, go for it. But if you get caught, you're automatically fired and burning all bridges with that company and its management. If things go really bad, it could also burn bridges with your previous employer if they find out you lied to. Yes, you COULD get away with lying, but you could also lie on your university app about what activities you were involved with. But just like with colleges, sometimes employers will run background checks on you at the last stage of the interview, and when you fail to produce that paystub, you're toast.
"MORE!!!" ... and then my manager proceeded to whip me with a CAT5 cable.
Don't do it. They call. Plus if you're looking at work with the federales, they will look.
I've gotten a lot of mileage out of a line I got from a WSJ Managing Your Career column a while back:
"I am hoping to receive a fair offer."
One guy I interviewed with even knew the article I was talking about and got some points for reading the journal.
But don't fib. It'll bite you in the ass.
quis fimum scribit?
If you're looking for a new job because your old one isn't paying you enough, what's the problem with telling prospective employers that? When they ask why you're leaving, tell them you're looking for more opportunities to advance and don't feel you're getting that at your current position - that's code for "they aren't paying me enough." The question of how much it is will inevitably come up, as you say, so just tell them. If you think a company may screw you based on your previous salary, that's probably not a good company to join. What you want is a company that will pay you what you're "worth," and they probably have a figure in mind for your position before you even apply.
As an aside, whatever they offer you, get it in writing, and be wary of things like "Starting at 40,000, increasing up to $10,000 after 3 month review," I've gotten screwed by that type of language before. "Yeah, It's only a $2000 raise, but we did say 'up to' $10,000! (wink, wink)." I started looking for a new job that very day.
rooooar
But after 2 years with the company. What helped me was I did a lot of homework, and I was honest. Told them I liked my work, and wanted to stay with the company, but these are my personal goals.... The one that made it for me was housing - I told them one of my goals was to own my home, in the city. Gave them a realestate map with the areas of the city I liked, and the median home price in each of those areas, and then the median income I would need to get a home in each area. They decided to invest in me and my goals. I don't have a home in the historical district I really like, but I have a very nice place with a shorter commute than many of my co-workers and one of the best school districts in the area.
I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress -J Adams
A companies first offer is their lowball, god what if this sucker goes for it offer. If you are currently employed, you have no pressure, so hit them back with a counter equally far above what you want. work your way to what you want, or as close as you can get them.
I have worked with folks who took the first offer, and made WELL below me for the same work.
BTW, I'm a UNIX system administrator, who does windoze only when absolutely required.
Just three more hours seapeople and you can finally take me away from this crappy God Damned planet full of hippies
A common misunderstanding is that NOT telling them your salary helps you. I believe that is wrong. First of all, many companies will immediately shut you out for not disclosing that. It can also leave a sour taste in the interviewers mouth if you continue to resist the question. Also, it might make the employer think you got paid an embarassingly low salary, which doesn't help your cause either. I mean if you were getting paid like a champ, you'd mention your salary to make sure you can get paid even more.
You make it clear - very clear - that your current salary is too low and that is a big factor in why you are looking for a new job. Sure, you might be able to fight for a raise and get it, but it's still too low. That means their offer has to be even more than what one raise might net you. You're telling them that if they low ball you, you aren't taking their offer.
Whoever throws a number out first sets the tone. If, for example, you make $55k, but want $60k, but you make them say a number first, there are scenarios where you can end up fighting an uphill battle. What if they offer you $50k? What, suddenly you're willing to disclose your old salary and tell them their offer is too low? Then all that talk about it not being "relevant" goes out the window and you look like a fool. And now you are stuck fighting your way *up* to your goal. Instead, had you made it explicitly clear your currently salary is FAR too low, told them what it is, and asked for $65k, then you place them in the position to have to fight their way down to $60k.
If you don't tell them what your salary was up front, they won't know where you are coming from and your salary request will seem like some phantom number you got from salary.com. You want credibility? If you can't justify why you should get paid what you are worth, you don't deserve the salary anyway. Tell them what you make and make them respect what you feel you should be getting.
Some of us have this thing called a conscience. I say, instead of lying, tell them the truth, but also tell them you believe you are being underpaid and should be paid X instead of Y. You dont lie, and you get your message across. If they wont give it to you, then odds are they wouldn't give it to you even if you lied about your previous salary.
...
I dont see why people have such problems with just saying what they want to say
Most company HR departments will validate current salary level requests. Large corporations often have hotlines dedicated to this, as the information is often required when applying for a mortgage or other financing.
It's a tough spot to be in when you are asked this question. When answering, make sure that you give a figure that represents your entire package (salary, bonus, options, perks, etc) - and let them know that you're talking about an entire package. Since bonuses are often based on variable factors, it's fair for you to factor in the upper limit of your bonus potential. The message here is be honest, but also be thorough in how you detail things. Above all, be fair to yourself.
If you're good enough and an employer really wants to hire you - they'll pay what they feel you're worth to them, as opposed to just giving you a standard "raise" from where you are.
Good luck - stay confident, negotiate tough and get what you deserve!
Given that you did not mention asking your current employer for a raise, we can conclude that either (A) you didn't ask for a raise yet, or (B) you have been denied a raise. Let's examine these options more closely.
In the first option, we assume you have not asked for a raise. This is either (A) because you are afraid of your boss, and/or (B) you're afraid of rejection, and/or (C) because you're not confident in your abilities, and/or (D) you know you don't deserve a raise. If you deserve a raise, ask. If you don't, then you're just experiencing salary envy. Odds are slightly in favor of the fact that you do in fact deserve a raise. Getting another offer before asking your boss is an extremely passive aggressive move, and it WILL hurt you in the long run because it proves to both employers that you will stab them in the back without first confronting them about your situation. Stop being passive aggressive and just ask your boss for a damned raise already.
In the second option, we can assume that your request for a raise has been rejected. This is either because (A) your employer cannot afford to give the raise, and/or (B) you don't deserve a raise. Again, we'll assume that the odds are in favor of you deserving a raise. Experience tells us that if your employer can't afford to give a raise, then layoffs are coming and your head will be on the chopping block within a year, and you probably need to worry about getting a new job (any job) rather than getting a higher paying job. Remember: The job market gets more difficult after layoffs start because you have a lot more competition.
In both cases I assumed that you actually deserve a raise. However, it is quite possible that you do not deserve a raise (i.e. you might be a n00b that is experiencing salary envy). If that's the case, then suck it up and enjoy the good work environment as you gain experience. In three years, you will be able to easily negotiate a 50% higher salary.
In conclusion, if you haven't asked for a raise yet, do it first thing Monday. If you have asked for a raise and you've been turned down, inform your boss that you cannot continue at the current salary and that you would like to continue working there, but you will be forced to start looking for a new job if you do not get a substantial rase. Be ready to follow up on that, because odds are if he has already turned you down for a raise, nothing you say will help.
Above all: If you do not deserve a raise, DO NOT ASK. All you'll do is make it more difficult for the next guy to get what he deserves.
Most companies I have worked at provide bonuses, RRSP matching (think 401k, only up here, where it's colder) and other compensation. I also do some work on the side.
...".
By the time I add all that stuff up and tell them that is what I am currently making, I've pretty much reached the base salary I am looking for.
The key is in how you word it. Obviously you can't say "my current base pay is", you have to say "I am currently making about
Another key is to be somewhat vague. If you are making $65k/year, say "in the high sixties, looking for something in the low seventies".
If you are very underpaid, don't be afraid to mention this to your new employers as a reason you are looking for a new job. This will ensure they offer something above what you are currently making.
Also remember that when they offer you a job, it's an offer and it's probably not final. I've never accepted the first offer and always received a better offer.
When I got my programming job, I remained firm the entire interview. By firm, I mean I gave direct answers. Sounded confident (HA! FOOLED THEM!), but there were no 'uhhhh. ummmm. well.... err...'s at all. When it came to it, he asked how much I want and I stated my figure with confidence. When I was hired, I actually got more than I asked for.
Also, if you dont want to give out your current salary (which you shouldnt), you could always state "I would like give you that information upon negotiating my salary". Or something to that effect.
If you are asked about what your salary is and you're worried about whether or not they might lowball you. Do two things:
1.) Make sure that the requirements in the job description are in fact everything that it says it is...(ie.- No additional stuff that wasn't included in the job description, such as managing additional employees, expecting to deal with issues outside of the scope of your work, etc)
2.) State what you assume the average position salary range for the job that you're applying for is. In addition, state WHERE you got that information and even better is to have the print out showing that based on the job description, this is the proper salary range. If they fail to respond to that being the case, then ask why they are offering less then the average range (and of course be polite about it.)
3.) Alternatively, if you honestly don't have the minimum skills listed as required by the job description, then the company has a legitimate reason to offer a lower amount. For example, if you don't have a minimum of 5 years experience in the field and are applying for a senior sysadmin position, then assume that the company now has a bargaining chip to negotiate salary, (because they do..)
4.) Don't lie. As a general rule, any kind of falsification of your resume are grounds for dismissal, (i.e., criminal record, fake credentials or falsified experience.) Senior class positions are usually geared towards being able to start a job on the ground floor running, with little to no training and not being able to handle the larger responsibility in a senior level position often indicate you aren't really qualified for either the position or the type of environment that the job is being offered in (for example, a senior level position in a hospital or a commercial telecom company.)
5.) Communicate. This may sound a little trite but any kind of communication whether it be personal between lovers, or professionals in the business world, is critical to a healthy relationship between the employee and employer. (Even the slashdot crowd can stand behind this, after all what is it everyone is doing right now but communicating our thoughts and ideas to each other on here via the computer?)
Tell them your whole employment history up-front. Since you're currently under-market, you hardly have a position to negotiate from anyway. And they've certainly had plenty of their time wasted before by applicants who interviewed well but who's references didn't check out in the end.
You've stayed at that current position for several years because of the great learning environment, right? But now you're open to moving because your current employer doesn't have a path for you to grow much beyond it, or so I figure.
A business has two types of positions: those for which basic requirements or certifications are considered sufficient (you mentioned Windows System Administrator), and those for which the superior candidate will bring to the company strategic advantages (usually just sales, upper management, and sometimes development). The first get based on pay grades and local market conditions, whereas the latter are much more flexibly based mostly on how the company feels about it's profitability. I theorize that these correspond to Maslow's homeostatic and higher needs, respectively.
Get them to say the first number. You currently have stable employment, and they're probably not hoping for someone who jumps ship anytime 10% comes along either. Since you're currently under market, any offer you get may be on the low end of their grade for the position. Take it without hesitation, if it gets you into the usual market range for your skills (you already mentioned that you liked the company).
Work hard, prove yourself valuable, and you can expect to be at correspondingly competitive compensation within a couple of years.
When the interviewer asks you what you would like to be paid, tell him/her : what is the typical range they pay someone in that position at the company.
They will typically give you a range.
You should also value yourself. If you think you're worth 60k, ask for 65k.
Also don't ever settle for something low. There are always jobs to be found somewhere.
I just feel that, if I accept the position, I won't be able to bargain my way up to the market rate for the position, given it's such a leap from what I currently make.
A feeling? You're basing business decisions on a fear?
Be honest. Decide for yourself whether you release information about a business relationship you had/have with another company. Then go into your interviews knowing what you will share and how you will share it.
Don't sit around and wonder what they'll do, or what they'll think.
You are developing business relationship. Be professional. Don't go in there hoping you do everything right, and in the process spend more time worrying about doing the right thing than about presenting yourself and your skills.
I have made a few largish jumps in the past (12%, 25%, 63%). Each time I went in and told them what I liked about their company, how I believed I fit in, and the range I expected to be paid for the position. Each time I was honest without telling them my current sallary. This last time several companies turned me down primarily, I assume, because I was asking for what I was worth. Eventually I found a position that was perfect for me, and apparently perfect for them.
But then, I don't bargain. I don't do counter-offers, and I let them know up front that I'm not interested in doing so. If they don't feel like paying what I'm worth, then I'll not waste any more of my time or their time.
Your mileage may vary, and unless you have the personality that I have these tips may not work for you. But I would suggest at minimum that you treat this as a two way business relationship. They are trying to sell you on the position as much as you are trying to sell them on your skills. Don't make yourself out to be the party with less power.
"We have hundreds of applicants, what makes you so special?"
"There are hundreds of campanies I could work for. I want to work for yours. Can you say that of your other applicants?"
-Adam
READ THIS BOOK.d _sim_b_1/002-6822999-5302459?_encoding=UTF8&v=glan ce&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1580083102/ref=p
It's a handbook of negotiating techniques with specific regard to salary and job prospecting.
The golden rule?
WHOEVER GOES FIRST LOSES. Don't EVER be the first to mention a number.
The book is incredible, it really is. There are at least three different techniques for dealing with the "what are you currently making" question.
If you do nothing else before you have your next interview, read the book. If it doesn't help you, I'll buy it from you. I re-read the whole thing before EVERY interview to brush up.
I don't want to seem overenthusiastic, but this is one of the few things I can say works without a doubt. It's one of the most important books I've read in my entire career.
Here's the best salary advice anyone has ever given me - make them talk numbers first.
Yes, you can do this. It's part of the process. If they are talking money, they want to hire you, but they, of course, want to get you as cheaply as they can to make you happy. Don't ever give in first. If you do, you won't get paid as much as they are willing to pay you.
Worst case scenario is that they won't give a number without you giving a number. That's rare, and the sign of a cagey (or stubborn) hiring manager. If it gets to that point, don't tell them what you are making, tell them what you want to make to change jobs. Go high, higher than you really need, but not outrageously high, and then say, "But, that depends on the situation, and I don't want you to not offer me a position here because of the salary. If I'm a good fit for you, and you're a good fit for me, which is how it feels now, I'm sure we can work out the details", and take a big drink of the water that you have sitting on the table. Then, now that you've got your breathe back, look them in the eye and smile. The ball is in their court, which is where you want it to be.
Also, don't be afraid to negotiate after they make the offer. If they make an offer, they want you, and they've put a lot of effort into interviewing you, following up on references, making the offer letter, etc. I had a friend tell me never to take the first offer. I don't know if I agree with that, but usually you can get a few extra grand by working them post-offer.
Will the hiring manager be a bit pissed on your first day? Probably. If you did it right, you won, and that's always a pisser for the loser. Usually you don't get to be a hiring manager by losing. But, if you show them that you are worth it, that feeling will quickly change to "How can I keep this guy for what I pay him?". Managers understand much better than ICs that salary negotiations are business, not personal.
Oh, and don't tell anyone, except your spouse, what you make. Nobody. That will only lead to pain.