Recovering From the Xbox 360's Big Mistakes

Two pieces up in the media right now talking about problems with the Xbox 360. Games.net has an overdramatically title piece, Five Ways to Save the Xbox 360. The article lays out ways in which Microsoft should revamp the console and its games in order to truly dominate the next-gen war. Meanwhile, a 1up editorial asks the question Is the Xbox 360 Hurting the Games Industry? The article looks at the ways in which Microsoft's console was rushed out the door, and the negative consequences that may have on the industry as a whole. From that article: "More important, though less remarked upon, is that the Xbox 360 was also launched before the industry was ready. If you pay attention to companies' end-of-year financial reports, which I'm sad to say my job requires me to do, one thing that stands out in the postholiday reckoning was the statement, again and again, that the Xbox 360 launch had hurt sales across the industry."

Comments

Where are the games?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think what the XBox 360 needs to "recover" or even just keep from dying out completely, is some ACTUAL GAMES. The console's been out for, what, three or four months now, and all that's coming up for it anytime soon as far as I can tell is Oblivion, a game which will simultaneously be released for the PC.

As far as I can tell, the XBox 360 doesn't really start getting games (except PC games) until Gears of War until which is coming out this fall-- which is soon enough to keep the console from dying completely, but probably still after the PS3 comes out.

Until then though we're pretty much left with DOA4, which is pretty short, and a bunch of basically shareware games on XBox Live Arcade. How are you supposed to "recover" while this is going on?

Re:Where are the games?

[Mr.Dippy]

True, there are really no games that I want and there have been no games worth mentioning since launch. However, remember last year with the Nintendo DS? The system launched with like 2 good games. It wasn't until at least 6 months later that anything worth wild came out. For me it was Meteos and Advanced Wars Duel Strike. When Nintendo 64 came out there was only 2 games for a few months to choose from. With that said it takes time for stuff to come that is worth playing. With that said I'm not holding my breath for xbox360. I'm still waiting for Sony and Nintendo.

Re:Where are the games?

[antifoidulus]

I think a more interesting question is "why aren't more games being released?" Are the publishers worried that the 360 supply shortage has created a market that just isn't worth taking risks on? Are game creators having a difficult time creating bug free 360 games? Or is this launch just like the PS2 and DS etc. in that it wasn't until 6 months so till good games actually start coming out....

Re:Where are the games?

[aiken_d]

Do you actually own a 360, or is that just an impression?

For my part, I bought the thing specifically to play the xbox live arcade games that I'd heard so much about: geometry wars, marble blast, etc. Since then, I've discovered another 5 or 7 games that make me totally happy with the purchase -- and each one of those games cost $10 or less.

I also spent $60 on madden 2006, and have played it for a total of about 10 minutes. That purchase I do regret.

So maybe the "problem" is that the downloadable games favor cheaper, more fun, easier to produce games over huge, expensive, marketing-driven games. Less revenue for game developers, but less expense and more fun for consumers. I'm just not going to lose sleep over that one.

-b

Re:Where are the games?

[EggyToast]

So, you spent $400 (assuming you bought the "full" console) to play games easily playable for free or for $10 on any computer made in the past 5 years, easily?

I don't mean that as a troll, but that's an awful lot of money. Sure, the controller does make a difference, and there's something to be said for hanging out on the couch, but if you're playing the equivalent of 80's arcade games, it seems kind of silly that you're so focused on the cheap 'bonus' games.

I have a friend who is seriously interested in Oblivion which, for him, would require a major update of his PC, so the 360 is tempting him. But when I ask him about other games, he only lists games that he's sure are going to be out sometime in the future. Well, it's poor planning to bank on future games -- why not wait until those games are actually released, so you can actually play them?

I mean, more power to you for having fun with the 360. It just seems like the biggest draw to the system uses really none of the "big, new technology" that commands such a high price tag.

Re:Where are the games?

[EggyToast]

I think it's like most systems, where the companies push to get the system out the door with a few "launch games," and then the system sits while the rest of the publishers hurry up. If you look at the GC, all of the games when it first came out that were decent were really short -- indicative of a reduced production cycle. Similarly, the PS2 had a year head start -- which really just meant it could start getting good games when the other systems launched. the 1st year was still pretty sad.

So really, it's just the dev times are different for hardware vs the software. Most developers only get kits about a year out from the time the system launches, and often the kits aren't finalized. Given that it takes, on average, about 2 years for a solid game to be made in the current generation of consoles, it's no surprise that the 1st year is typically slow with few worthwhile games. It seems even more ironic given that the first year(s) are when the system costs the most, and is the hardest to find.

Re:Where are the games?

[Anonymous Coward]

The 360 makes development an expensive proposition. Firstly, there are the higher-resolution textures and more detailed modelling that are required for HDTV output, then there is the need to tweak the graphics so that they look decent on standard TVs which most customers are using for now (it will be a while before HDTVs make it into the average kid's bedroom). Also, developers need to buy new devkits and adapt to a new architecture, which is a significant investment in time and money.

All of this, without a significant market for 360 games at the moment. Who knows how many people will end up adopting next-gen hardware in the short term? There is certainly very little incentive to produce games for the XBox 360 right now.

The sad thing is that the same will occur with the PS3. Development will be even more expensive due to the convoluted Cell architecture, and the release price is looking to be prohibitive for all but the most hard-core gamers. The Revolution isn't much better, as it is an absolute wildcard that could flop dramatically, and porting games to use its unorthodox controller will be a real challenge (unless the standard-controller "shell" ships with the console).

All-in-all, things aren't too positive for developers that want to take a chance on the next generation, and there are plenty of people who will still be buying games for their PS2, XBox or Gamecube for some time yet.

Re:Where are the games?

[aiken_d]

Well, what can I say? I'm more into gameplay than how many pixel shaders or polygons are being used onscreen. I *could* play the hottest, fanciest games that take (more) advantage of the expensive hardware... but they just don't look like that much fun to me.

So, yeah, my life would have been perfectly complete with a PC, a decent USB control, a usb headset, and Ventrillo. Oh, assuming I cound find games with a similar level of fun gameplay and people online to play them with.

But, for me, it was worth $500 or so to be able to just plunk down in front of the TV, open a beer, start Marble Blast, and get my ass handed to my by some obnoxious kid halfway around the world.

So I stand by my point: the "problem" is illusory, and is in fact a good thing for consumers. Making gameplay and word of mouth more important for a game's success has led to cheaper, more fun games. If EA is losing out because they're institutionally incapable of delivering either 1) a fun game, or 2) any game at all with less than 250 people on the team making it, it's not going to keep me up at night.

Mark my words: availability of inexpensive, fun downloadable games is going to do the same thing to EA and the other big producers that cable TV's myriad of channels did to the big networks. And that is a Good Thing.

-b

Re:Where are the games?

[Anonymous Coward]

(posting AC so I can still mod) Supporting the platform now helps ensure that those future games make it out. That's what still puzzles me about the Xbox's failure. It had so much potential, so much power and such elaborate tools... and yet people with your mentality killed it.

If you like something, support it. MS can afford to take a hit on its consoles if it sees that they're selling. What matters is market presence. But now that Sony has the power and MS has the tools/environment (IMO, mind you), I think actual games deserve more attention than potential games.

Re:Where are the games?

[cornface]

So, yeah, my life would have been perfectly complete with a PC, a decent USB control, a usb headset, and Ventrillo. Oh, assuming I cound find games with a similar level of fun gameplay and people online to play them with.

I'm not questioning your Xbox 360 purchase. I think it's kind of stupid to attempt to rationally justify entertainment purchases. You buy toys because for whatever reason you derive pleasure from them.

That being said, not only can you find games with a similar level of fun on the PC, but in many cases, the exact same games. You can also use the Xbox 360 controller on your PC.

Re:Where are the games?

[CastrTroy]

Nintendo's planning to do just what you like. Release a bunch of really fun games you can just sit down and play. The only difference is the 360 cost $400 and the Revo will cost less than $300, and it will probably come with 2 controllers and a game you'll actually want to play.

Re:Where are the games?

[MBraynard]

Dev for the 360 scales well with the identical dev of current PC games. Can the Xbox 360 even run F.E.A.R. with all the bells and whistles turned on?

Re:Where are the games?

[EggyToast]

Well, I *did* buy an Xbox... once it had enough games that I wanted to play. I picked it up when Halo 2 dropped, not because of 1 game, but because it had about a half dozen older games that I really wanted to play. That, and the costs were mostly upfront -- I really liked not having to dish out any extra money for memory cards ;D

But no, I'm not saying that I'll never buy an Xbox 360, or that it's MS's doom. Just that if the games aren't there, why rush the console out? I'm a firm believer that the reason the original Xbox performed so well was because it launched with Halo, which sustained it for its first year plus. The GameCube had some solid launch titles, but they were all short with little replay. I'm historically a fan of Nintendo, but I still didn't rush out to buy a DS -- I waited over a year, and now have about 10 games for it that I bought almost all right away, because I knew that I would have a solid run of entertainment for the forseeable future with the system.

And due to my disagreement with many of Sony's business practices, I haven't owned and probably won't own a PS2, despite many games I would really like to play. But that's my own choice.

But you do have a point -- if it weren't for a good chunk of early adopters, the prices and games may never get to a point where they're attractive to the later adopters like myself. They pay the higher prices and live through the gaming droughts so I don't have to.

Re:Where are the games?

[bsway]

WHere are all the 360's? Ive been kicked out of Game Stop for countinually askin when they will arrive

Re:Where are the games?

[wolrahnaes]

The 360 has the advantage in this way, because the dev environment is very similar to writing games for the most popular platform on the planet, the Windows PC. It's also using the same tools as Xbox 1, which were very easy additions to Visual Studio. I had a Hello World and a simple Pong-like game on my Xbox 1 within minutes of installing the dev environment, so I'd assume the 360 is about as easy.

Develop a game for PC that can take advantage of a dual core Athlon 64 with a recent ATI video card, and it'll port over to the 360 relatively easily. Aside from learning some new tweaks to the architecture for ATI+PowerPC vs. nVidia+x86, the only notable difference between 360 development and the original Xbox is the multithreading aspect. Granted that's not a small piece to bite off, especially in games, but it seems that it's the long-overdue future of gaming right now so developers should be learning to work with it anyways.

Re:Where are the games?

[SilentChris]

I think you're kind of missing the point, on a whole bunch of levels.

First, yes, you can buy a PC that plays some of these games. It will, however, set you back much more than an Xbox 360 (even the cheapest PCs run the $600 range). You'll have to play with a keyboard and mouse in front of a computer screen, not in your living room. You won't be able to track your accomplishments, or play with your son halfway across the country while talking on voice chat like I do. At least not easily (yes, you can probably set up an instant messaging program and screw around with a headset to get it to work on PC -- it could be done I suppose). That $600 box won't really be good for any games besides that shareware -- you certainly won't be able to run anything like Morrowind on it and have it play decently. If you want to play the game on another computer, you'll first have to check the specs to make sure it matches, then install again (with Xbox 360 you just log into the other box and it downloads the game). From a gameplay standpoint, playing on PC would be a crappy version of what can be done easily, more cheaper, and arguably more fun on Xbox 360.

But let's look beyond that. Up until now, shareware was the domain of a few key players (iD, for example), but it never really took off. Most companies produce demos of PC games, but the idea that you can download a game, play to a certain point and unlock the full game afterwards only had a few real successes. The vast majority of people still buy games in little cardboard boxes.

Microsoft has an opportunity here, they're taking advantage of it and it's frankly shaking the industry. Sales of Xbox Live arcade titles are in the hundreds of thousands, easily matching regular game sales. Why is it such a success? Because with one button press you have a game downloaded, installed, and ready to go. You KNOW it works because it was built for the platform, and most games are only about $5. They have begun work on bringing full DVD-sized games to the Arcade. They're taking the long predicted download-distribution model for selling games and making it a reality.

And it isn't just Microsoft. Sony and Nintendo are also bringing the download-distribution model to the masses. This is the way the future is going to be said.

There's a lot to be said about a system that easily lets consumers buy games, without thinking about platform specs, "Will it work?" etc. iTunes and iPod uses a similar model, and look how far they got (1 billion songs sold). *Can* it be done the old PC way? Yes. But if there's a better way, why not go for it?

Re:Where are the games?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Well, it's poor planning to bank on future games -- why not wait until those games are actually released, so you can actually play them?"

The 360 intrigues me for a couple reasons, one being future games of course (Armored Core 4 is speculated to be out on both the ps3 and the 360, so I might have to pick up a 360 if Live is better than whatever Sony comes up with). But also, since I skipped on the first Xbox, there are a few games out for that system that I've missed out on and can pick up cheap, and can't play on a PC. Sure I can probably get an Xbox cheap, but why not take that purchase as given and "pretend" that the 360 is 100$ cheaper?

Re:Where are the games?

[cornface]

I think you're kind of missing the point, on a whole bunch of levels.

Hi doofus, I think you are missing the point.

I specifically mentioned that I wasn't questioning his Xbox 360 purchase, doofus. I was just pointing out that the controllers work on the PC (which he obviously already has, right doofus?), and that you can just as easily play Alien Storm and Robotron on it.

(even the cheapest PCs run the $600 range)

Yeeeeah. Okay. Second clue that your post isn't going to be what we call "reality based."

You'll have to play with a keyboard and mouse in front of a computer screen, not in your living room.

Considering my original post was almost 100% about how you can use the Xbox 360 controllers on your PC, I don't have a lot confidence in your ability to read.

You won't be able to track your accomplishments, or play with your son halfway across the country while talking on voice chat like I do

Have you played a modern computer game? Like, I don't know, any of them? Shockingly, voice chat and ranked servers exist on PC games, too! Can you even believe it????

From a gameplay standpoint, playing on PC would be a crappy version of what can be done easily, more cheaper, and arguably more fun on Xbox 360.

Again, I never disputed that. At all. Ever. You picked a random misinterpration of my post (even though there was a disclaimer) and based an entire rant on it. A rant full of inaccuracies.

The rest of your long ranty post had little to nothing to do with anything that I said, but what the hell, doofus.

But let's look beyond that. Up until now, shareware was the domain of a few key players (iD, for example), but it never really took off.

You're out of your freaking doofus gourd if you think that shareware never took off. How old are you? Shareware faded away in a large part because companies can now offer direct downloads of demos (many of which are unlockable, and scarily close to shareware!) to consumers instead of having to rely on a network of BBS's and floppy disk traders.

They're taking the long predicted download-distribution model for selling games and making it a reality.

I guess you have never used Steam. Based on your post I'm going to guess that this may be the first time you've actually used a computer.

To summarize: You think the Xbox is cool. You can use your Xbox controllers on the PC. For some reason you think this means I hate the Xbox and all that it stands for.

In otherwords, you're a doofus.

Doofus.

Re:Where are the games?

[Blakey Rat]

Hexic HD, IMO the best Live Arcade game, is only available for Xbox 360. So while you can play many of the Live Arcade games on your PC, there are some you cannot.

Hexic HD is a hex-tile-based puzzle game from the creator of Tetris, and it's addictive as all hell. I've worn out a 360 controller's rechargable battery in one-sitting playing it.

Live Arcade also has some games that you could play on your PC at one time, but are no longer available. For instance, Crystal Quest.

Re:Where are the games?

[SilentChris]

"Hi doofus, I think you are missing the point."

Um, yeah... I stopped reading right here. Step away from the angry teenager/college dude, kids. He hasn't quite grown up yet.

Re:Where are the games?

[cornface]

Um, yeah... I stopped reading right here.

It doesn't surprise me, since you obviously didn't read my original post before typing out your long boring screed.

Step away from the angry teenager/college dude, kids. He hasn't quite grown up yet.

Damn. You showed me.

Doofus.

Ideally, the solution will involve...

[Anonymous Coward]

...Joanna Dark being naked and in my lap.

I claim this frist poist for Spain!

Anybody out there?

[caffeination]

Wow, so this is Slashdot on a Sunday night? Cool. It feels like being at a 24 hours shop or library in the middle of the night.

Re:Anybody out there?

[temojen]

Where I am it's still sunday morning.

Re:Anybody out there?

[MyLongNickName]

The rest of Slashdot is either out on hot dates, or involved in Bible study.

Re:Anybody out there?

[neumayr]

OMG, my eyes. How can you advertise a page using comic sans?

Th3 p41n...

Geez and I though their biggest mistake was...

[Rude Turnip]

...not manufacturing enough of the consoles in time. Only this weekend have the "Core" systems become generally available in my area and the "Premium" systems with the hard drive & other goodies will become available on a more regular basis later this week.

Re:Geez and I though their biggest mistake was...

[samkass]

Their supply problems are definitely one problem, but not the biggest one. The supply problems may have been understandable if the XBox 360 was selling like hotcakes, but it's not. Having mediocre sales and STILL not being able to meet demand is bad news. Of course, their supply situation is still 100% better than the PS3.

Re:Geez and I though their biggest mistake was...

[vsprintf]

Of course, their supply situation is still 100% better than the PS3.

Just like the PS2, the US launch for the PS3 will most likely be in the fall to get the holiday sales. That could also depress sales of Xbox 360 games (and consoles) while people wait to see what games the PS3 has lined up. I'll be more interested in seeing the price of the PS3 at launch. If MS drops the price on the 360 as the PS3 arrives, it could make the 360 a tempting buy - especially if there are some good games available by then.

Re:Geez and I though their biggest mistake was...

[Anonymous Coward]

Having mediocre sales and STILL not being able to meet demand is bad news

If they are still filling back-orders, how can mediocre sales be an issue?

Re:Geez and I though their biggest mistake was...

[JonathanBoyd]

How can you tell the difference between 'selling like hotcakes' and 'mediocre sales' when they're consistently sold out? It's a bit hard to judge demand when supply is so low. I may be misinterpreting, but it sounds like you're criticising lack of supply in what you perceive as a law demand situation. But given the low supply, it's mighty hard to accurately gauge the demand.

Re:Geez and I though their biggest mistake was...

[rtb61]

Supplies of the XBox 360 are most likely being run down because of the over-heating issues i.e. failures beyond the 3 month warranty are likely to be high. High enough to probably cause long term sales problems so numbers out the door are reduced until cooling redesign.

Ideal modern design is of course for failure once the warranty has elapsed but because of the internet and end users sharing their experiences this can have a disastrous effect on long term sales.

Re:Geez and I though their biggest mistake was...

[rseuhs]

Well, first they weren't "consistently" sold out. Only in big cities in the US and UK they were sold out, in rural areas, continental Europa and of course Japan they were available, especially if you were willing to shop around a bit.

Secondly, if you look at ebay, you will see XBox360s sold at around retail price (give or take $ 50). That means that most ebay-gamblers have given up making a profit on ebay and are trying to get rid of it.

Re:Geez and I though their biggest mistake was...

[TallMatthew]

Having mediocre sales and STILL not being able to meet demand is bad news.

It's impossible for these two conditions to exist simultaneously.

If you don't have any to sell, then you're selling all that you have. That classifies as exceptional, not mediocre.

Re:Geez and I though their biggest mistake was...

[Kierthos]

No.... if the supply is low because of unexpected production problems, then sales could be lower then expected. There is a vast difference between "We can't keep them in stock because they're insanely popular" and "We can't keep them in stock because only 10 are produced a week".

Yes, it tends to be good for demand to exceed supply, because it creates increased desire for the product. But if you have to wait several weeks to get it at all, not because you don't have the money for it, but because of a poor marketing decision to not have enough supply, it turns people off.

Kierthos

Re:Geez and I though their biggest mistake was...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you were talking about something going into a new market, you might have a point. However, at this point we have all sorts of historical data on how console sales have been at launch.

You can quite easily have mediocre sales -- compared to earlier console launches -- and still be having trouble meeting demand.

Re:Geez and I though their biggest mistake was...

[apoc06]

if youre spending your entire time filling back orders, no new consumers are able to buy your product. back orders are only a fraction of a consoles total sales over its lifetime. if they cant fill even the backorders, consumers that possibly would buy the console upon seeing it in stores, are denied the opportunity. this in turn makes them more likely to buy a competing product. IMHO.

if you can not even come close to meeting demand, you are not reaching your goals as a company and your consumers are being let down. if you are selling well in one or two territories, thats one thing, but thats very rarely strong enough to last long in the industry. of course sales seem strong now; they dont have any next gen competition. even in territories where they are in high demand they are being outsold by some consoles that have been around for half a decade at the least. in territories where the x360 isnt in high demand, the console is getting outsold by the phantom! just kidding.

truth be told, my notion to buy the x360 is getting fuzzier and fuzzier. i want the console, but the longer i wait, the longer i start to feel like its not such a big deal; i can wait on the ps3.

GTA 4 wth ????

[Hurricane Floyd]

GTA 4 ??? What rock does this guy live under? If I am not mistaken following the GTA family tree >>> GTA:Vice City was #4, GTA:San Andreas was #5 and GTA:Liberty City Stories is #6....... what gives... not to mention Rockstar Games would never sell out to M$.

Re:GTA 4 wth ????

[ZakuSage]

Sequence:


GTA
GTA: London 1969
GTA2
GTA3
GTA3: Vice City
GTA3: San Andreas
GTA3: Liberty City Stories
GTA4 --Next gen

Re:GTA 4 wth ????

[illspirit]

VC and SA essentially used the same engine as III, so in theory they don't count as numbers. Sorta like how GTA:London was between the original and GTA2. Chances are that R* will probably just keep using place names to avoid confusion though.

Re:GTA 4 wth ????

[miyako]

Actually, I beleive that GTA: Vice City and GTA: San Andreas were both considered part of the "GTA3 Franchise". I seem to recall reading something several months ago where Rockstar said that the next GTA game would be GTA4 and would somehow be differentiated from the GTA3 series.
I do agree that it would be a bad idea for the GTA series to go exclusively to the 360. It seems like the PS3 architecture would be particularly suited to running a game like GTA where there is a big focus on a lot of things going on simultaneously.

Re:GTA 4 wth ????

[Hurricane Floyd]

Sorry dude but that just doesn't look right to me.

Re:GTA 4 wth ????

[TheoB]

GTA 4 ??? What rock does this guy live under?

Rockstar (specifically, Sam Houser) has stated that San Andreas "marks the end of the GTA 3 Trilogy," that GTA 4 has yet to be released, and that it will represent more of a dramatic change in the game than the one between 3, Vice City, and San Andreas. This is in line with their previous philosophy: the original GTA was followed up with The London Missions (London 1969 and, later, London 1961, expansions on the PC and a whole new release on the PSX), which preceded the "true" GTA2.

not to mention Rockstar Games would never sell out to M$.

...When it's so much more profitable to sell out to the market leader? :-D

Re:GTA 4 wth ????

[Hurricane Floyd]

If that is the case then what is Liberty City Stories, GTA III or GTA IV ???

Re:GTA 4 wth ????

[illspirit]

A GTA III mod, basically. ;) Seriously though, I don't think portable versions count. If that was the case, they'd be at like GTA 12...

Re:GTA 4 wth ????

[Slow Smurf]

Yet it's correct, unless Rockstar changes their minds. They inetnd a fullblown new game before they claim to have made GTA4.

Re:GTA 4 wth ????

[badasscat]

Sorry dude but that just doesn't look right to me.

It is right. Rockstar names their GTA's basically based on the engine they use and the world they're supposed to take place in. GTA:VC, GTA:SA and GTA:LCS are in the GTA3 family of games.

You're hearing this basically straight from the horse's mouth, as I used to work there. You can choose to believe it or not, but there it is.

Of course, Rockstar is not a company that values consistency above all else, so I suppose things could change. But the plan when I left the company was that the first game on the next console will be GTA4.

Re:GTA 4 wth ????

[Hurricane Floyd]

LMAO "Rockstar is not a company that values consistency above all else".....Oh well, at least their games kick ass!!!

Re:GTA 4 wth ????

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting, but the only flaw is that GTA: LCS doesn't use Renderware. It uses something new. Still takes place in the same world, though.

Re:GTA 4 wth ????

[Odin_Tiger]

not to mention Rockstar Games would never sell out to M$.

HAHAHAHA! You're new to this industry, aren't you?

This is an easy fix...

[__aaclcg7560]

I'll wait until I get a XBox 360 for $100 USD. Heck, I'm still waiting for the regular XBox to drop to $100 USD. Something wrong with this picture.

Re:This is an easy fix...

[ivan256]

You may have less of a wait for the 360... Everything about it is mirroring Dreamcast.

Re:This is an easy fix...

[__aaclcg7560]

I hope not. When I finally had enough money saved up to buy a Dreamcast, it was already on the way out. I want a console to be around long enough for some decent games to come out.

Re:This is an easy fix...

[AvitarX]

Where are the great launch titles then?

Baffled by so-called 'failure' of 360

[Aphrika]

As far as I'm concerned, the 360 wasn't launched before it was ready, but before the manufacturing process was ready - not really a point for failure. Software always comes later and the game certification issues sound like classic come-to-market problems. However here in the UK, we also suffered from PSP shortages, although not to the same extent. Sony launched the PSP here over a year behind its Japanese launch, and we still seem to have a certain lack of decent games for it - month in month out I go to the shops and it's the same damn games!

That said, I own a 360 and I really like it. I didn't get mine in the first wave - there were only something like 50,000 allocated to the whole UK - but I did pick one up in early January and so far I'm pleased with what it does. Ok, so there's no 'killer' game, but I wouldn't consider myself a hardcore gamer, but the few games I do have I find entertaining and great fun with friends. I'm not realy 100% sure what people mean by a 'next generation game', I bought the console specifically for its online capabilities and its ability to be a media extender. In those respects it's very, very good, and Nintendo and Sony have a long way to go to catch up with the likes of Xbox Live.

I'd be interested as to what people exactly thought the 360, PS3 and Revolution were going to do for gaming really. Every time a console is released a wave of hype about its features appears. We never really found out what an Emotion Engine enabled the PS2 to do differently, and ditto for the obilgatory USB/keyboard/hard-drive attachments that are mooted for each machine. The PS3 for me seems a little ambitious and I'm a bit too old school to like the Revolution controller (I'm saying that without obviously having used one, the opinion may change). All I bought my 360 for was to play HD games against other people in my lounge and the rest of the world, and in those respects it's been a success for me, and evidently for all the other people I'm playing against...

Re:Baffled by so-called 'failure' of 360

[OmegaBlac]

the 360 wasn't launched before it was ready, but before the manufacturing process was ready

So in other words the Xbox 360 was not ready period. Cut the crap and apolisgist nonsense--the Xbox 360 was rushed in more ways then one. The Xbox 360 is as much failure as the PSP.

That said, I own a 360 and I really like it. I didn't get mine in the first wave - there were only something like 50,000 allocated to the whole UK - but I did pick one up in early January and so far I'm pleased with what it does. Ok, so there's no 'killer' game, but I wouldn't consider myself a hardcore gamer, but the few games I do have I find entertaining and great fun with friends. I'm not realy 100% sure what people mean by a 'next generation game', I bought the console specifically for its online capabilities and its ability to be a media extender. In those respects it's very, very good, and Nintendo and Sony have a long way to go to catch up with the likes of Xbox Live.

Nothing worse than a fanboy making execuses for the product they worship day and night over. Look at this nonsense you posted. No "killer" game + prolonged console shortage + lackluster average game catalog + fanboys conducting spin control for a rushed console = failed launch.

Re:Baffled by so-called 'failure' of 360

[Aphrika]

"Nothing worse than a fanboy making execuses for the product they worship day and night over. Look at this nonsense you posted. No "killer" game + prolonged console shortage + lackluster average game catalog + fanboys conducting spin control for a rushed console = failed launch"

I certainly wouldn't consider myself a 'fanboy' of the 360, and I don't worship it - it doesn't have a little ring of candles around it, or a shrine devoted to it in my house. I bought it because I like what it does. I wouldn't call the launch games 'lacklustre', they're damn good, but there's no killer title like Halo that makes the console a must buy for anyone right now. And in my defence as a so-called fanboy, I'd like to point out that I never really coudl figure out what made Halo a killer game - it was a bog-standard FPS with a jeep.

"So in other words the Xbox 360 was not ready period. Cut the crap and apolisgist nonsense--the Xbox 360 was rushed in more ways then one. The Xbox 360 is as much failure as the PSP"

I don't consider either a failure, and in the same vein I don't consider Apple products (iPod Mini?) which always seems to have a hyped launch, but fail to deliver on quantity.

There's no denying that all these products are good ones technically. They certainly aren't failed products, but just ones that have had poorly managed launches. That doesn't make them failures.

And no, I didn't buy a fscking clip-on front for it!

Re:Baffled by so-called 'failure' of 360

[Primis]

So since you think it's so important to success...

Aside from the XBox with Halo, name another console that had an actual killer app right at or around launch time?

Re:Baffled by so-called 'failure' of 360

[nekura]

NES - Super Mario Brothers, SNES - Super Mario World, N64 - Super Mario 64.

Re:Baffled by so-called 'failure' of 360

[Keeper]

Super Mario 64 wasn't a killer app for the N64. Frankly, I don't remember there being much to like about the N64 at all ...

Re:Baffled by so-called 'failure' of 360

[AbRASiON]

Rubbish!

The Xbox 360 may or may not be a good unit but it's certainly early by console standards.

The PS2 came out nearly a year before the Xbox 1 yet it's replacement we likely won't see for 6-9 months.
Sure it's getting a little long in the tooth no doubt, but good high quality and fun games are still being made for it (We love Katamari, Shadow of the Colossus, God of War, MGS3)

The Xbox on the other hand is FINALLY getting some really good games coming out for it, it's more powerful than the PS2, it has better hardware features (hard disk, network in all, Xbox live is far better designed, even the cables with that clever "don't destroy the console" quick release) - yet MS are replacing it barely at 4 or 5 years of age for the Xbox.

Consumers like value for money, I like value for money, I'd like to think my Xbox purchase will continue to be supported properly for years to come (rumours claim this isn't the case and MS are dropping it like a bag of shit)

The Xbox 360 could be good, I don't know - I wouldn't mind one but I sure as hell think MS could've waited a good 6,9 or even 12 more months to release the 360 properly with some of the following stuff @#%!ing fixed.

*Force Feedback support, Sony can do it, MS paid Immersion for the licensing costs, where is it?
*Backwards compatibility working PROPERLY as promised, not half assed, stuttery crashing games which somehow made it on the B/C list??
*Less hardware failures and a fucking quieter system!?
*Either more power in the unit or better time for coders to get it right (PGR3 semi-fiasco, photo, all the screenshots of the game reviews do not look like the ingame graphics, due to the *AA turning off during racing, since they don't know how to harness the power)
*Waiting for the darn cost to come down on the parts 10%? 15%? and damn well consolidate the *SKU's! - splitting the marketplace with "HDD version" and Core version is stupid - forcing developers to have to assume there may be no HDD - this sucks for games which could've had better caching routines coded for the spare cache partitions or features on live.
*Time for the manufacturers to actually HAVE SOME on store shelves for consumers to buy?!

Ultimately, I will get one, I'm no random MS hater despite my rant,... but I certainly, abso-fucking-loutely feel this thing was rushed for the holiday season, - MS have some good ideas but they had to shoot their wad early for the Christmas dollar - it's quite sad really.

No, I'm not an MS hater for reference, I've got a PS2 and an Xbox 1 and I actually use my X1 more than my PS2 but I can see a greedy, stupid move when I see one.

Re:Baffled by so-called 'failure' of 360

[Judge_Fire]

"Super Mario 64 wasn't a killer app for the N64. Frankly, I don't remember there being much to like about the N64 at all ..."

Edge gave it 10/10. Edge. It was heralded as revolutionary redefinition of the genre. It has sold close to 12 million. I think it's one of the best games ever made.

Super Mario 64 was a killer app for the N64. Frankly, I remember there being much to like about the N64. ; )

J

Re:Baffled by so-called 'failure' of 360

[Keeper]

The only thing I enjoyed on the N64 was the race portion of Super Mario Kart (the battle mode blew) and multiplayer goldeneye (and even that wasn't spectacular).

Now, it's fine and dandy that you and some game reviewer that I've never heard of liked it -- but for me, I thought it stunk, and I don't know anyone who bought an N64 for the specific purpose of playing it.

For me, the Mario franchise peaked with Super Mario World.

Re:Baffled by so-called 'failure' of 360

[megan_of_wutai]

I remember when mario 64 came out, it was a phenomenon, people were blown away, it retained the "wow" factor for years afterwards too.

Emulators were made with the express primary intention of playing it.

Mario 64 was without a doubt a killer app (game).

Re:Baffled by so-called 'failure' of 360

[sehryan]

"I'm a bit too old school to like the Revolution controller."

The irony of that statement is that by turning the Rev controller on its side, and you have the "old school" NES controller, which will be able to play most (all?) of the "old school" NES games via download. Just something to think about.

Re:Baffled by so-called 'failure' of 360

[Sysgen]

Rubbish!

The Xbox 360 may or may not be a good unit but it's certainly early by console standards.

The PS2 came out nearly a year before the Xbox 1 yet it's replacement we likely won't see for 6-9 months. Sure it's getting a little long in the tooth no doubt, but good high quality and fun games are still being made for it (We love Katamari, Shadow of the Colossus, God of War, MGS3)

If there was game that should of been on a next gen console it is Shadow Of the Colossus. God Of War came out some time ago if I remember as did MSG3 so I really don't understand the relevance of these games to the topic. Developers are free to make Xbox games. There is still a very healhty population of Xbox owners. Hell, I just bought Toca 3 today for the Xbox.

The Xbox on the other hand is FINALLY getting some really good games coming out for it, it's more powerful than the PS2, it has better hardware features (hard disk, network in all, Xbox live is far better designed, even the cables with that clever "don't destroy the console" quick release) - yet MS are replacing it barely at 4 or 5 years of age for the Xbox.

It's very well known and accepted why MS launched when they did I don;t have to spell it out for you becuase if you can't fighure it out for yourself they you have no reason posting on gaming releated message boards.

Consumers like value for money, I like value for money, I'd like to think my Xbox purchase will continue to be supported properly for years to come (rumours claim this isn't the case and MS are dropping it like a bag of shit)

Seriously, can you just get to the point and tell Slashdot of the AbRASiON business plan. Your Bill Gates. You need to capture market share from SONY. What do you do. When do you launch? This bag of shit nonsense is so disengenious.

The Xbox 360 could be good, I don't know - I wouldn't mind one but I sure as hell think MS could've waited a good 6,9 or even 12 more months to release the 360 properly with some of the following stuff @#%!ing fixed.

You don't know? All of this but you don't know if the console is good or not? Let me inject my impressions for you. As a frame of reference I owna Gamecube a PS2 and Xbox and now a 360. The 360 by far is the most functional console that has ever been produced. The first day I got my 360, popped in PGR3 (gorgeous), downloaded the Fight Night 3 and NFS Most Wanted demos and played them. Connected the 360 to my media center PC and streamed a movie off of it. Played music stored on my ipod in game PGR3. Downloaded Geometry Wars evolved off of Xbox Live Arcade. Just f**king wow. Is it good? OMFG what a noob!

*Force Feedback support, Sony can do it, MS paid Immersion for the licensing costs, where is it?

The Xbox was incapabale of true FF, the 360 is not so I have no idea what you are talking of here.

*Backwards compatibility working PROPERLY as promised, not half assed, stuttery crashing games which somehow made it on the B/C list??

Another disengenious post or very uninformed. Again, your MS, get games made for nVidia, Intel working on a machine featuring ATI/IBM. They're making an effort. What do you want? Wait until 100% backwards compatible b4 releasing the next gen console?

*Less hardware failures and a fucking quieter system!?

Stop the presses! MS is the only console maker with hardware failures. Care to quote a percentage? Thought not.

*Either more power in the unit or better time for coders to get it right (PGR3 semi-fiasco, photo, all the screenshots of the game reviews do not look like the ingame graphics, due to the *AA turning off during racing, since they don't know how to harness the power)

Seriously now (again) Have you seen PGR3 on a hidef set? Very very nice. Gorgeous cities and gorgeous cars. Damn, you need to play the vegas track at night. N

Re:Baffled by so-called 'failure' of 360

[AgentDib]

I believe he is expressing skepticism in the utility of the wand capabilities of the Revolution controller, which is cited in around half of the reasons people say they are going to get a Revolution. The other half tout the Nintendo franchises ie. Mario and Zelda.

It is certainly nice that the revolution will be able to play legacy NES games, but really that isn't the crucial feature that will win me over or lose me as a consumer. Like the original poster, I like that the 360 allows me to play HD games with friends.. right now.

Re:Baffled by so-called 'failure' of 360

[Anonymous Coward]

The original poster is pointing out that there are NO FORCEFEEDBACK driving wheels for the xbox360. None, zilch, nado, nothing. PGR3 is the only game worth getting, IMO, but without a forcefeedback wheel.. you may as well stick with any number of great titles on the PS2 like ToCA3 or GT4 and the fantastic Driving Force Pro racing wheel. If you really care about racing games.. you will care about the feel of the cars through a wheel. I know this because I want to buy a xbox360 and two forcefeedback wheels but it's just not possible and no one can tell you when it will be.

Re:Baffled by so-called 'failure' of 360

[AbRASiON]

The guy is too busy rubbing one out to his Xbox 360 and arguing to justify his purchase to clearly read the post at all as well as several of his points are just blatantly wrong.

Not worth my time replying to frankly.

Re:Baffled by so-called 'failure' of 360

[Keeper]

Then we'll just have to respectfully disagree.

Re:Baffled by so-called 'failure' of 360

[Sysgen]

"Force Feedback support, Sony can do it, MS paid Immersion for the licensing costs, where is it?"

I don't see "wheel" in that sentence. Sorry I don't read minds.

"Not worth my time replying to frankly." = I got nothing.

Don't be so certain.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you seem to have forgotten that San Adreas ran on Windows and Xbox.

FYI

Re:Don't be so certain.

[Hurricane Floyd]

Quote: "I think you seem to have forgotten that San Adreas ran on Windows and Xbox." Yes, HOWEVER, Rockstar Games did not sell it EXCLUSIVELY for Windows and Xbox, thus they did not sell out to M$.

Re:Don't be so certain.

[KDR_11k]

Since the game sells so well they'd be rather stupid to make it exclusive and lose out on those sales.

Re:Don't be so certain.

[Hurricane Floyd]

Exactly, it would be stupid to sell exclusive to M$.

Comparisons to the PS2 Launch

[jchenx]

I see a lot of comparisons between the 360 launch and the PS2 launch. If you do some searching on Slashdot and Google, you can find several articles that talk about some of the general PS2 launch issues and the hardware problems the console had.

Should Microsoft had learned from Sony's mistakes? Sure. Unfortunately, it's repeated a lot of the same problems: 1) Supply doesn't meet demand, 2) Lack of a killer launch title, 3) Hardware problems. (Actually, I think a lot of the 3rd issue could be solved with better messaging to buyers. Don't put the power brick in an enclosed space! Don't put your 360 on top of your already-warm TV! Otherwise, these same folks are going to have the same problem with the PS3 and Revolution)

Anyway, so the 360 launch has the same issues as the PS2 launch. Yet we know how the PS2 ultimately dominated this console generation, so they are definately not insurmountable problems. Anyone (including the media), who is already forecasting doom and gloom for the system needs to be realistic. The real battle is going to be months from now, when the other consoles are released. The key for the 360 is going to be how the next round of games do (Gears of War, Oblivion, etc.), and winning those GTA3-level exclusives.

Re:Comparisons to the PS2 Launch

[CastrTroy]

The Xbox 360 shouldn't have problems no matter where you put it. Sorry to say, but If I can't put the thing where I want to, then it's broken. Obviously things like putting it in your oven are a bad thing, but simply putting the power supply on carpet was reported to cause problems. I'm sorry, but not being able to put the power supply on the carpet is a little restrictive.

Re:Comparisons to the PS2 Launch

[wolrahnaes]

As a new owner of a 360 (less than a week) I can't yet see where this one came from. The power supply's vents are across the top of the thing, pulling air in one end and pushing it out the other. The air coming out of it is lukewarm, but the power supply itself doesn't get any warmer than my cell phone's wall wart, even after a 9 hour PGR3 session I put in while at work (night shift help desk job + VGA pack = win)

The only thing I can imagine is that these people are just wildly dropping their 360 power bricks on to shag carpeting, which comes up high enough to block the vents if it was to land upside-down.

The system itself, well that does get rather hot. The air coming out the back of it was competing with my TiBook. Maybe people are putting the power supply directly in the path of the hot exhaust from the console or something...

Re:Comparisons to the PS2 Launch

[jchenx]

The Xbox 360 shouldn't have problems no matter where you put it. Sorry to say, but If I can't put the thing where I want to, then it's broken. Obviously things like putting it in your oven are a bad thing, but simply putting the power supply on carpet was reported to cause problems. I'm sorry, but not being able to put the power supply on the carpet is a little restrictive.

I have the power brick sitting behind my TV on carpet and I have no problems. I think the people that had problems were sticking it inside of their TV cabinets, which I imagine can cause problems if it's not well ventilated. There's lots of warnings not to do this, but lots of people don't bother reading them. (They just want to get their shiny new toy up and running as soon as possible)

Should equipment like that be designed that it can run in ANY location? Probably not. Otherwise, it'd take a lot longer for the product to be released, as the engineers try to figure out how to get the PS3 to work fine on top of a hot CRT.

So, how about designed to run in a reasonable location? Sure, I'll agree with that. But the problem is that there's a lot of gray area here. I think it's obvious not to stick equipment in un-ventilated cabinets, because I'm a techie and also because there's warnings all over the place not to do so. But Joe User doesn't read manuals and throws those paper warnings away, so he'll do just that and complain when his latest gaming system keeps locking up.

Granted, there's also the problem where any hardware is going to have defects. Anyone remember the class action lawsuits with the iPod that Apple settled? Or the PSP dead pixel problem? Ideally, yeah I want all of my gadgets and electronics to have absolutely no problems, 100% of the time. But we don't live in a perfect world. Fortunately, that's why we have things like customer service and warranties, so that when you are bitten by the bad hardware bug, you can expect to get a replacement as soon as possible.

What would be nice is to get actual statistics on hardware defects and returns, and not anecdotal evidence. I know several people with 360s and they've had no problems. My 360 has been running fine, but I did get a bum controller recharger. But that's just me. I'm sure the Slashdot audience is going to claim higher than normal problem rates, since the typical user is anti-Microsoft. (It's also interesting that those who claim lots of problems don't even have one themselves. They just repeat what they saw on the Internet) I know there has been talk of class action lawsuits on the 360, but don't know if they've gone anywhere either.

The real issue about the hardware problems is going to be years from now, to see if people still remember the issues or not. I know I had lots of problems with my PS2 (remember the DVD lawsuit and settlement?), but it's in the back of my mind and I mostly remember all the great games on that platform. That's exactly what Sony wants. Whether or not the same will happen with the 360 remains to be seen.

Re:Comparisons to the PS2 Launch

[ivan256]

The PS2 launch wasn't without it's problems, but they still had more hardware available on the first day than the 360 has had available in the first four months. You con't really compare the two launches in any meaningful way.

One was a eventful, bumpy success, and the other was a total disaster.

Re:Comparisons to the PS2 Launch

[rseuhs]

How can people be so shortsighted?

If a brand-new system just barely works (and the fact that Microsoft themselves put up many restrictions of where to put the unit/powersupply plus the problems people had who ignored the restrictions prove that the system is pretty much on the limit and even slight misuse will push it over the limit) will fail as soon as enough dust/durt collects and/or the bearings of the fans wear out so the fans become less efficient.

This is a big problem in the US (because after the ridiculous short warranty period people may buy a new unit (= losses for MS) or will ignore XBox360 (= bad for the platform))

But it could be an even bigger problem in the EU, because device makers are required to have a warranty of 2 years, which could be very expensive for Microsoft.

This Is Stupid

[Primis]

The only thing the XBox 360 has hurt is Sony and Nintendo's pride. They didn't take it seriosuly enough and MS beat them to market by a wide margin, with decent (but not great) launch titles (better launch titles than the PS2 ever had though). Oh yeah, and MS has the first real online gaming service with downloadable games that people seem to be flocking to.

I can't fathom that in a week where all the talk has been about how much longer the PS3 is going to be delayed and that it'll cost around $800, people are still trying to say that it's the fault of a next-gen console that's already to market and costs half of what the PS3 apparently will, that is "hurting" the games industry.

So the 360 has the PSU issue? Big deal -- the PS1 had a CD-ROM issue where if you had to ever replace your original one it would no longer fit in your case... the PS2 had issues scratching discs and sometimes outiright destroying DVD movies, as well as several fire-related recalls... this happens when you ship a product to a lot of people.

What's hurting the game industry is Nintendo's constant rehashing of games by slapping "Mario" on the start of the title, and Sony's outright hostility towards their customers and lack of grounding in reality.

That and the fanboy writers who can't swallow their pride and admit that they didn't take MS seriously enough ever since the original XBox, and are getting proven wrong in having so much faith in Sony (who, right now mind you, has exactly the same number of shipped console products as MS has -- two. It's not like Sony is Nintendo or something and been around forever in the gaming console industry, when you think about it).

Gaming is the only industry I've ever seen where the consumers HATE competition and the benefits it reaps them, I swear... all because they can't get past their pre-pubescent-ish fanboy loyalties.

Re:This Is Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing the XBox 360 has hurt is Sony and Nintendo's pride.

When you exclude, of course, all the companies that spent real money to develop launch titles that would actually come out with the console, only to find out that their titles were collecting cobwebs alongside the empty xbox360 shelfspace. It took almost 3 months for microsoft to resolve preorders alone. Thats almost an entire quarter where a number of third party companies sitting on titles without sales, retailers sitting on titles without sales, and gamers waiting to get the Xbox360 so they could buy the games they wanted to play. But no, what really hurt the industry wasn't hundreds of thousands of copies of unsold 360 titles sitting in retailer inventory over the new year break collecting dust and taxes, no, it was nintendo making and selling mario games, and the fanboys ranting irrationally about the playstation.

Re:This Is Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing the XBox 360 has hurt is Sony and Nintendo's pride. They didn't take it seriosuly enough and MS beat them to market by a wide margin

Sony and Nintendo still don't seem to be taking the XBox 360 seriously, and I've yet to see evidence this was a bad decision.

Why exactly is being beat to market by a wide margin supposed to hurt Sony and Nintendo's pride? You don't win console wars by being first, you win console wars by being best.

Re:This Is Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

Gaming is the only industry I've ever seen where the consumers HATE competition and the benefits it reaps them, I swear... all because they can't get past their pre-pubescent-ish fanboy loyalties.

And yet, your post is a fanboy rant for microsoft that includes slams against Nintendo for continuing the Mario franchise, and a slam against Sony for something I don't even comprehend.

Who cares really?

I hope all Linux users are aware that a very decent port of Elite is available now. Google "oolite". Why add this? Why not.

Re:This Is Stupid

[wolrahnaes]

The last generation proves that statement wrong. The PS2 was first (ok, the Dreamcast was first, but it was more of a .5 of the generation before), but the Xbox and Gamecube are both better on paper and had better games.

The PS2 still won because by the time the other two came out, it had an installed base that was enough to get people to keep buying them so they could play the same games at their friends houses, well that and all the GTA games coming out first on it...

Re:This Is Stupid

[Primis]

No, it's just come to the point that if you're not a 100% loyal Sony fanboy, you apparently must be an XBox or NIntendo fanboy or something. Like I said, ya'll hate good competition. WHY?! Would you guys be happier if Nintendo and MS were killed off and it was just Sony? I'm sure you'd love paying $75/piece for games and getting little innovation, if any at all.

Until Sony actually LAUNCHES a next-gen console, they don't have one. Same for Nintendo. They have nothing but conjecture still. How can MS be "hurting" an industry with the XBox 360 when nobody else has a comparable system out to market yet (but presumably will eventually, though I'm having my doubts about the Revolution)? Right now though, the PS3 and Revolution are exactly as tangible as the Phantom.

Having a 3rd player in the console wars was the single best thing that happened to console gaming anytime recently, especially since Nintendo has really, really lost their step...

Then again... seeing you add a worthless, offtopic line about Linux on the bottom sums up your own fanboyness relatively nicely,a nd your personal experience with it.

Re:This Is Stupid

[ClamIAm]

Like I said, ya'll hate good competition.

Um, yeah, all gamers are identical, and hate the same thing. Not.

Until Sony actually LAUNCHES a next-gen console, they don't have one. Same for Nintendo.

Until MS actually has some next-gen games for their "next-gen" system, they don't have one either.

Right now though, the PS3 and Revolution are exactly as tangible as the Phantom.

Um yeah, Sony and Nintendo are notorious for announcing consoles and then never releasing them.

Having a 3rd player in the console wars was the single best thing that happened to console gaming anytime recently, especially since Nintendo has really, really lost their step...

Yep, Microsoft is the first "3rd player" in the console race. Companies like Sega, Sony, NEC, Coleco, Atari, and Fairchild never existed! Oh, and Nintendo seems to be doing just fine, compared to the financial reports coming out of the Xbox division.

Then again... seeing you add a worthless, offtopic line about Linux on the bottom sums up your own fanboyness relatively nicely,a nd your personal experience with it.

I know Jr. high composition class is hard, but you might want to study a bit more about making a coherent argument to avoid posting trash like this.

Re:This Is Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

So in other words you're saying that the last generation proves the statement "you don't win by being first, you win by being best" wrong, so long as we agree to define the second console of the last generation as the first console.

Huh.

Re:This Is Stupid

[Pranadevil2k]

Here's a duh. The "Gaming industry" is the industry of gaming - that is to say, the X-box 360 is in the same industry as the PS2 and Gamecube and X-box. It encompasses everything from the console manufacturers to the software houses producing games. The industry was not prepared to take such a hit as the X-box 360 caused. Software houses had to rush out subpar games or flat ports (with the exception of Fight Night Round 3, which has a totally different feel on the 360).
If the 360 hadn't come out, more consumers would've had a lot more money to buy some of the absolutely awesome games that came out over the christmas season, and that would've meant more profit for the industry as a whole. As it is, many people bought 360s, and those people didn't have enough cash to get ten or fifteen new games along with it. There was more potential revenue before the 360. That's all.

Re:This Is Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's just come to the point that if you're not a 100% loyal Sony fanboy, you apparently must be an XBox or NIntendo fanboy or something

No... no one is making you be a 100% loyal XBox fanboy. You chose to do that entirely on your own.

Re:This Is Stupid

[SilentChris]

Are you ever NOT going to post anti-MS drivel?

Re:This Is Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

"better launch titles than the PS2 ever had though"

Have you ever played Armored Core 2?

Re:This Is Stupid

[megan_of_wutai]

Having a 3rd player in the console wars was the single best thing that happened to console gaming anytime recently

This statement is so truly bizarre. Are you 12 years old?

Re:This Is Stupid

[Ctrl-Alt-Del]

Um yeah, Sony and Nintendo are notorious for announcing consoles and then never releasing them.

Well so far, all that Sony have given us is an empty case. Way to go with showing some actual product. Meanwhile, MS have now had four months to get hardware problems sorted, and have many months yet to go to get some decent titles out there.

Re:This Is Stupid

[apoc06]

the ps2 won because they had the selection and volume of games. it wasnt first, it wasnt the most powerful, it wasnt marketing. it wasnt the cheapest of the consoles either.

not all games were great, not all were bad, but they had something in there for everyone, whereas we all seem to turn to nintendo for party games and lighthearted romps with characters from our youth, and our xboxes are good for cranking out a couple of rounds in the latest FPS PC port. the ps2 had those and games in nearly every genre imaginable. there was something for everyone. so everyone bought one. this is how nintendo dominated consoles for so long. its the selection that people love. no sony has that ball and is rolling with it...

i bought a ps2 because it had games i wanted to play. i bought an xbox because it had games i wanted to play. when nintendo releases more games that i want to play, i will buy one of those too. i want to buy an x360, but i want to see more solid software... and i want a box to actually be available. same goes for the ps3. ive seen the games im interested in. they need to have followthrough and execute.

Re:This Is Stupid

[ClamIAm]

Are you ever NOT going to post non-replies?

I think the 360 was an improvement

[HalAtWork]

The XBox was only able to drag its own sales down, but the XBox 360 is dragging down the sales of the entire industry. The power!!!

The PC is the killer app.

[Deathlizard]

first off, I don't own a 360 or even an original xbox. I do own a PC however, which I use for most of my gaming.

Now even though I don't own a 360, I own a wired 360 controller and headset. Why? because it's one of the best controllers you'll find on the PC, and the headset works great with teamspeak and allows me to use my speakers for actual game sounds while solely communicating through the headset.

That being said, all of the other features, like Media Center functionality, future Vista support for Xbox Live profiles as well as PC peripheral functionality and a solid online gaming service really makes me think about making this my next console since the Dreamcast. The only thing I'm waiting for is to see how well the home brew community expands on it, Particularly since xbox live is somewhat encouraging small developers to make games on it with it's arcade service.

Engine or Title

[Hurricane Floyd]

So technically are we talking about game engines or actual titles, because it was NOT mentioned in the article that he was refering to a game engine, just names.

might wanna wait to get an Xbox 360...

[Anonymous Coward]

...until the next tiers of its release come out. This is being posted as AC because I got this info from an MS insider last night (part of their surveying and testing groups) who was drunk enough to start chatting openly, so listen up:

Currently, the plan is to introduce MORE TIERS of Xbox 360 in the next 12 months. Thought the two current versions were bad enough? Supposedly, three more are coming--set to introduce bigger hard drives and MS Media Center functionality, along with "more HD support" (though I didn't understand that last part--does that mean an HD-DVD drive included? Or 1080p? He didn't explain, but whatever). In short, the next Xbox 360s, whether it's one or even three versions, will double as TiVos. Anybody know more about this? Or was this guy just a drunko spouting lies? Either way, an interesting idea to spark the system's life after a botched debut when the PS3 is finally afoot...

Re:might wanna wait to get an Xbox 360...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you were both drunk.

Re:might wanna wait to get an Xbox 360...

[PhoenixOne]

I got the same rumors online, but I wouldn't say it was a trustworthy source. :) This person may just be sharing the common rumors that are being told on the Microsoft campus.

The idea makes sense however. Microsoft has been trying to get into the mainstream media market for some time now. The XBox360 could make a great DVR, movies-on-demand, and music jukebox. My guess is they are going to try to take on not only Sony, but Apple and Google as well.

The Xbox 360 and PS3 are both in trouble

[Animats]

First, there's the price point problem. Rumors of the PS3 launching at $800-$900 are distressing. At that price, it just won't sell. Even the $299 for the XBox 360 is high, and trying to pump the price up higher by bundling overpriced extras isn't helping. Remember, the PS2 is only $99, and developers have already figured it out. It's going to take a few years before developers really figure out how to use the Xbox 360 and PS3 hardware effectively.

After going to a talk at Stanford by the chief architect of the Cell processor, I'm convinced that the Cell people don't know how to use their array of eight little 256K CPUs for gaming. The speaker was clear on how you did things like RF processing for cell sites, but asked about what to do in games, said "that's Sony's problem". Remember, in the PS3, the Cell processors don't do the graphics; there's an NVidia chip for that. In the PS2, the vector processors do the graphics. From a developer perspective, these wierd machines are a huge pain. What we'd like is a multicore shared memory multiprocessor with a good graphics chip, so we can work on the game software instead of fussing with the hardware. From a business perspective, wierd architecture means that game profitability comes later in the life cycle of a console. Not good.

Second, there really is no XBox 360 shortage. Want one? Go to eBay. 1461 systems for sale today. Core system prices are steady, around $325. When and if Microsoft gets their production problems straightened out, will anybody care? Probably not, until a nice big price cut. Now, at $199...

Third, the attempt by the consumer electronics industry to put a premium price tag on HDTV players and drives may be a major flop. DVD players are going for $29 and up. Blu-Ray players at $500 to $1000 are overpriced. Lots of people can't tell the difference, anyway. It's amusing to visit the display of large-screen TVs at Fry's. Most of them are displaying the same signal, which is from an HDTV source, but about half of the "HDTV" units are actually getting their video from an NTSC signal. Most customers don't notice the difference. Sometimes the NTSC pictures look better, because the blurring masks the motion compression artifacts.

What this all looks like is a desperate attempt by the consumer electronics industry to push prices up. Way up. Probably won't work.

Re:The Xbox 360 and PS3 are both in trouble

[KDR_11k]

The HD situation becomes even worse with all that copy protection chaos right now. "Sorry but this TV isn't secure enough for HiDef Bluray playback, using NTSC output instead". That'd anger a lot of PS3 customers.

Re:The Xbox 360 and PS3 are both in trouble

[badasscat]

First, there's the price point problem. Rumors of the PS3 launching at $800-$900 are distressing.

There's no rumor that it'll launch at that price. There are rumors that it's costing Sony that much to make, which is a completely different thing. And anyway, those reports are complete bullshit, considering that they don't take into account the fact that Sony is designing and manufacturing all of the highest-price components themselves. There's no way, for example, that it's costing Sony twice as much to make their own Cell processors as it's costing MS to buy custom-designed 3-core PPC chips from IBM.

Sometimes the NTSC pictures look better, because the blurring masks the motion compression artifacts.

I can't even figure out how to respond to this one... I gotta doubt that you've actually seen true HDTV as you say, though.

Re:The Xbox 360 and PS3 are both in trouble

[Animats]

Sony can't afford to lose too much per unit. The PS2 became profitable quite early. I agree, though, that those $800-$900 component costs per unit sound high.

Why do Blu-Ray drives cost so much more than DVD drives, anyway? They're not that different.

Re:The Xbox 360 and PS3 are both in trouble

[Dobeln]

MS have fab rights to their processor (they learned from the XBox Intel screwup...), so that shouldn't be much of an issue.

Re:The Xbox 360 and PS3 are both in trouble

[Blakey Rat]

Probably because they're making them backwards-compatible with DVD/CD drives, which means that each drive has to have two independent assemblies-- the blue laser, and the normal laser used with today's DVD. (Whatever color it is.) That's just a guess.

If the PS3 wasn't backwards compatible, and it was *only* a blue laser drive, I bet it'd be quite a bit cheaper.

Hmm.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad correlation does not equal causation.

How about the horrible headset?

[jkeegan]

The worst thing about the 360 release was the piece-of-garbage headset they gave us with the 360, instead of the far superior headset from the original XBox Live kit.

Microsoft doesn't even SELL a good replacement for this, and old headsets don't work unless you buy a new one, cut off the wedge piece, and solder connections to the mute and volume controls.

Other than that, and not having any for people to buy, it's a great platform. It won't even be a topic for discussion when Halo3 comes out, it will be a requirement.

Re:How about the horrible headset?

[dootbran]

Actually you can use your old headset, you will just have to change the volume in the menu. I've been using my H2 headset for months without problems.

The Optical Mouse...?

[TheoB]

FTA:

It's a big, bold plan, but Microsoft tends to excel at the biggest, boldest plans--see Windows, Internet Explorer, and the optical mouse.

Early 2000, deep inside Bill Gates' Secret Lab under Lake Washington.

Bill Gates: Steve, what I'm about to show you may shock you to your very core. It's going to change the face of computing, nay, technology, as we know it. You may want to sit down.

Steve Ballmer: I would, but you've removed all the chairs from the room.

Bill Gates: ...yes. Well, just stand then. Stand, and behold, for like Prometheus giving fire to mankind, we are about to unleash upon the world... The Optical Mouse!!!

Steve Ballmer: Like those old Apple II mice, with the little camera inside?

Bill Gates: (Rolls eyes) Mice have two buttons Steve.

Steve Ballmer: Right, sure. Look, Bill. I'm just not sure the world is ready for-

Bill Gates: I SAY WHEN THE WORLD IS READY!

etc.

Re:The Optical Mouse...?

[Mad_Rain]

Early 2000, deep inside Bill Gates' Secret Lab under Lake Washington.

How could anyone even remotely believe that this was the true story... Ballmer doesn't throw a chair at anybody! =P

Re:The Optical Mouse...?

[despisethesun]

Re-read it. You'll note that Gates had removed them all from the room, just in case. ;)

Re:The Optical Mouse...?

[iainl]

There is, of course, a massive difference between the old optical Sun and Apple mice that needed the special reflective surface to cause a pattern of light and dark as you moved the thing, and Microsoft's solution of a camera that can detect movement over any surface of your choosing.

Yes, they are both "optical", but that's about it. Not that I don't get all nostalgic about my little Sun.

Re:The Optical Mouse...?

[Mursk]

Where there's a will, there's a way...

FPS'ers and the Xbox?

[dougmc]

Comment on the first article --

It's a well-known fact that the Xbox and Xbox 360 excel at first-person shooters. This is no surprise, given the FPS-friendly controller design.

Eh?

I've been playing FPS games on PCs since The Catacomb Abyss came out. And I recently got an Xbox (the original) and have tried it for a while. And let me say that the Xbox does NOT excel at FPS games. It does OK, but it does NOT excel. Having two analog joysticks does work nicely in that it lets you run and shoot in different directions, which worked very nicely in MechAssault (which is a 3rd person shooter, but it's close), but it wasn't perfect.

Basically, the ideal contoller for a FPS is a mouse and keyboard. I'm aware of nothing better at this time, though the keyboard could be replaced with a better keypad of some sort. The mouse lets you zoom right in on a guy's face quickly and fill it full of lead (or plasma, rockets, etc.) To make controllers like the Xbox's work well with a FPS, generally they either add auto-aiming (you get close to a guy, and the target jumps right to him, like in MechAssault) or they slow the game down so quick aiming isn't so important. And head shots? Auto-aiming kind of defeats the purpose ...

I haven't played the Xbox 360 so I can't really comment on it, but considering how similar the controller is, I doubt it's much better. On the plus side, the controllers are straight USB (the Xbox 1 also used USB, but with a custom connector) so maybe some games will actually support using a mouse and keyboard. I'm pretty sure the Dreamcast had some games that would support that ...

Of course, on the other hand it's hard to play a mouse/keyboard game while siting on your couch. ...

Re:FPS'ers and the Xbox?

[Neoprofin]

PC Gamer ran an article about playing with mice and keyboard vs controllers.

Long story short?
The one of the editors of PC Gamer took on the two staff members of a Halo website, in Halo, and stomped them mercilessly. The second autoaim was turned off the X-box controller didn't have a chance against mouse and keyboard even given the experience discrepency between the two parties.

It's far from scientific, but most people who have used both can tell you right off hand that it's not even a competition.

Re:FPS'ers and the Xbox?

[clem]

I've always wondered why, instead of a thumbstick controller on a gamepad, they don't include a thumb-sized trackball. Aside from the hazard of getting Cheetos grit gumming up the trackball, it'd be a boon for fans of pin-point accuracy.

Re:FPS'ers and the Xbox?

[CastrTroy]

It's so much of a difference that it's depressing to play FPS games on a console when you've done it on PC for so long. it takes seconds to turn your character around. On pc that could be done almost instantly. And on PC, circle strafing felt very natural, On consoles I find it impossible. I've switched to console gaming due to the high costs of PC gaming, but until my console gets a mouse/trackball, then the PC will beat the console at least in this one genre. I imagine RTS games are the same, although I can't say I've ever played an RTS for console. Some games just require a mouse. Does anybody remember Lemmings for Super Nintendo?

Re:FPS'ers and the Xbox?

[Anonymous Coward]

Good point about the turnaround time, I don't like it either. I was pleasantly surprised that Resident Evil 4 featured a "pull back and press a button to turn 180 degrees" feature. Very useful, especially when the zombies get quick.

Not sure about the other Resident Evil games; I picked up Zero for my Gamecube but haven't tried it yet.

Just as a quick aside, I think the control scheme in RE4 is probably the reason why it's such a great game. You're using two buttons, at most, yet are able to do so much with them. Then again, I was never one for complicated control schemes.

Re:FPS'ers and the Xbox?

[dougmc]

instead of a thumbstick controller on a gamepad, they don't include a thumb-sized trackball

I never found a trackball to be anywhere near as precise as a mouse. But that could just be due to a lack of practice with it. Certainly, trackballs are usually marketed as a replacement for a mouse, and while they're not very popular, some people seem to have good results with them.

Back to mice as a control device ... I think back to Freelancer. Now, most space combat games have been best played with a joystick (with a hat if the game let you slide to the side like Descent did (and though you were underground, it still played like a space combat game)), but Freelancer was different. It let you control your spaceship with a mouse in a reasonable way in an arcade-like setting, and it was wonderful -- all because they decided that the weapons were on a controllable turret rather than just pointing straight ahead from your ship (and since your ship is massive, it can't be turned as quickly as your mouse moved.) It just worked ...

Re:FPS'ers and the Xbox?

[batkiwi]

No one has ever (seriously) argued that two thumbsticks is able to compete with keyboard + mouse as far as raw accuracy.

The point is that games have progressed since quake2, and it's not about pixel accurate railing. If you want that, go play quake2, or the original UT in instalkill mode on your PC. Or better yet, write yourself a flash game that blinks a white dot on the screen and you score points based on how quickly you click it.

Pixel click accuracy has been taken as far as it can be taken, and it does NOT make games more fun to have to click more and more accuratly. This problem is what led to the "mee tooooo" era of FPS games a few years ago.

Nowadays, a good FPS is an adventure game which uses first person viewing for effect. Many feature either lockons (like metroid prime), or purposely simulate the fact that in a stressful situation WHERE you are is more important that how accurate you can shoot (counter strike).

A mouse and keyboard is MORE ACCURATE, but I would argue is NOT a better controller for FPSs.

1. There is no analog control over movement, so you're stuck with solutions like auto-run, or holding the ctrl key with your pinkey to crawl.
2. It requires a tabletop. Even driving wheels strap onto your leg, but you'd be a fool to try and play with an optical mouse on your couch, with your keyboard cradled...
3. It requires a lot of physical movement, picking up the mouse/etc.
4. The abundance of extra buttons leads to gameplay designs requiring 15 different keys (this is an unfair bitch, but I'll leave it in)
5. Not as throwable, a serious issue when your friend beats you for the 10th time in a row...

The good, to me, of KB+M:
1. accuarcy
2. abundance of keys
3. You already have one with your computer
4. you can buy one VERY specific to what you like. Clicky/curved/colored/extra keys/only 7 keys/etc

Now, if you want to see a "good idea, bad implementation," I actually bought the sidewinder dual strike. It honestly combined the worst of KB+M and the worst of using a pad.... But it was OH so cool to whip out at lan parties!

Re:FPS'ers and the Xbox?

[Gulthek]

it takes seconds to turn your character around. On pc that could be done almost instantly

Just like in real life? That's my big beef with the mouse/keyboard. Sure it gives you super human turning and aiming capability, but while that could be believable for the super human warriors of Doom/Quake/UT, it really isn't when you are a Private Eye in Call of Cthulhu, or a WWII soldier in one of the many, many WWII fps games. Yes we humans can change direction and line of sight extremely quickly, but not over and over and over without getting disoriented. If a game introduced some kind of motion blur when you moved your character's sight around too fast for too long, that would rock.

It took time for me to graduate from the mouse/keyboard to the dual joystick setup, almost as much as it took for me to gradute to the mouse/keyboard from the straight keyboard. But now using a mouse and keyboard feels robotic, like I'm in control of a machine and not a human. Just turn up the joystick sensitivity until the character turns as fast as you think he would be able to, and it's awesome. Now I enjoy FPS games more on the XBox (no 360 yet) than I do on the PC, except for graphical glee.

Re:FPS'ers and the Xbox?

[The-Bus]

I think the comment was referring to the 360 excelling at FPS games as opposed to the Gamecube and the PS2, which it does. (The Gamecube controller is not built for FPSs, the PS2 analog sticks don't "feel right" to a lot of people). Control-wise, of course it can't match the PC, but many people prefer to play FPSs while sitting on their couch, not a desk. So beyond that it's personal preference.

Re:FPS'ers and the Xbox?

[AgentDib]

The big XBOX successes in the FPS market have come from casual and non-hardcore gamers who discovered how much fun the FPS genre is with Halo and Halo 2. It's ok if they are not 100% optimized because they are having a lot of fun anyways, and playing against people with the same handicaps.

It really isn't even debateable that the KB/Mouse combo is vastly superior to any controller. This isn't the fault of the controllers, merely a result of how truly excellent the WASD setup is for power gaming.

When Goldeneye was huge on the N64 one summer in college I used to play it heavily with a large group of friends. I had played several FPS games on the PC (quake2 especially), but never at a clan level. The control system in Goldeneye wasn't super easy, but we all had a blast and became pretty good. Then that year in college I really got into UT, joined a clan, and played very seriously. When I went back to hanging out over christmas break with the same friends we fired up the N64 and suddenly I couldn't stand goldeneye. I had been pretty good at it, but all I saw were the limitations imposed by the clunky controls and it was more frustrating than fun.

Most of the people who play FPS games on a console do it relaxing on a couch, eating junk food, hopefully hanging out with friends. The XBOX controller works far better for this than the PS2 controller or the gamecube controller (I won't go into how crazy Vice City drove me on the PS2). Microsoft could definitely add a keyboard and mouse setup for the xbox if they wanted, but it would be a waste of money and time. If you are going to be sitting at a desk in front of a TV, you might as well be sitting at your desk in front of your computer.

Re:FPS'ers and the Xbox?

[The Warlock]

The Gamecube controller is not built for FPSs,

Somebody forgot to tell that to Metroid Prime.

Besides, it's the exact same design as the XBox pad, only with buttons in different positions. It even has analog triggers. (Yeah, I know the PS2's buttons are technically analog...)

$600 is reasonable?!

[despisethesun]

From TFA:
Microsoft shouldn't be shy about boosting the price for the Xbox 360 NEO, either: $450-600 is a reasonable introductory price for a streamlined, enhanced Xbox 360

I don't fucking think so. If Microsoft wants to charge $600 for their console, Sony and Nintendo are going to knock them right out of the market. And don't buy the hype that the PS3 is going to cost in that range, either. Sony will bring it in for a price more in line with gamers' expectations to keep their stranglehold on the console market. A $600 price tag won't save the 360, it'll kill it.

FPS'ers and the Xbox?-Doing the keyboard boogie.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Basically, the ideal contoller for a FPS is a mouse and keyboard. I'm aware of nothing better at this time, though the keyboard could be replaced with a better keypad of some sort. The mouse lets you zoom right in on a guy's face quickly and fill it full of lead (or plasma, rockets, etc.) To make controllers like the Xbox's work well with a FPS, generally they either add auto-aiming (you get close to a guy, and the target jumps right to him, like in MechAssault) or they slow the game down so quick aiming isn't so important. And head shots? Auto-aiming kind of defeats the purpose ..."

I'd much rather use a gamepad. The problem with the mouse/keyboard is that one hand always has to be on the mouse, while the other is jumping all over the keyboard. RSI anyone? Farcry is an example of this, were you have to give the 4,5,6, and 2 keys a workout to drive a fast vehicle on a narrow winding road, while firing weapons. Then there's the jumping from binoculars, to crouching, to cryvision, etc. You can mitegate some of these problems through key reassignment, but it's still a pain having to be an octopus with the keyboard.

launch titles

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno, I rate Tekken Tag higher than any 3 xbox 360 games ('cept maybe some of the arcade games, haven't played them).

Re:The PC is the killer app.

[KDR_11k]

Does the controller work with Windows 2000?

Kind of rediculous

[jmanjohns]

Sure it ruined industry profits and caused financial havok, but I really disagree with everyone's complaints over the hardware. If anyone out there seriously thinks that you can shrink the system, add a 4GD FLASH (annoyingly expensive), slimline HD-DVD drive, and on top of all that integrate a 250 Watt powersupply, you really need to look at some small form factor PCs and compare specs, size, and weight. Short of water cooling or an insanely, yet undiscovered cooling system, I don't think its possible. Plus, not many people would spend $600 on that. "For starters, the current design sucks. More importantly, gadget freaks have proven they'll buy the same gadget again and again if it's made smaller, sleeker, and more powerful (see the iPod Nano, the slimline PS2, the Nintendo DS Lite, and countless other examples)" Furthermore I'd like to point out that the examples that were used like the slimline PS2 and "countless" other examples all have low thermal requirements. The PS2, unless they bumped up the power in their latest revision, has a ~300 MHz CPU and a 150 Mhz graphics processor. Its all about heat people. Don't expect the PS3 to get away without a large system or a huge power adapter. At the very least expect something in the range of 250-350 Watts for that sucker, not to mention the physical aspect of the cooling system. Still some good points with games though...

No next generation hype...

[7Prime]

I think the biggest problem is that Microsoft really jumped the gun. When every other generation starter was released, the previous systems were already starting to seem quite dated to gamers, and needed an overhaul. The Genesis, the PS1, and Dreamcast: all systems that, when released, had gamers saying not only "wow, that's really cool", but "it's about time!" I just remember the first time someone brought in a new Dreamcast, there was little hype for it's release, but all of us looked stunned when we saw it, and knew that the next generation had REALLY arrived.

With the third generation, the SNES/Genesis era, things like expanded color palettes, sampling synth based sound, and graphical scaling and warping made the systems truely "next generation". These weren't features that the SNES/Genesis could "do better", but things that the previous systems simply couldn't do at all. With the PS1/N64, we saw another huge jump with the edition of 3D graphics. Sure, the SNES had some rudimentary 3D games at the end of it's life (most of which cheated by including 3D graphics chips in their cartridges), but nothing to the extent that the next gen could do.

The 5th gen was a little more illusive, as the PS2/Gamecube/XBox era doesn't exactly add anything completely new that wasn't in the previous generation. But in this case, the pitfalls of the previous gen systems were becoming painfully obvious, and I think the general gaming community agreed that it was time to fix these things. This was the generation of attempting to achieve "realism", something the previous generation could bearily even strive for: the closest thing was probably FF8, but games of that graphical calliber were few and far between, and even in that case, we're still dealing with 2D backgrounds. Thus, it was becoming clear that the things that game manufacturers wanted to be able to do were not possible with the previous generation, so the PS2/GameCube/XBox were a welcomed update.

But the gaming community couldn't be happier right now. PS2 and Gamecube sales are just as strong now as they were 2 years ago, XBox sales were great before the 360s release. I don't see the gaming community in any sort of agreement that we are really in need of an update. The graphical capabilities of the XBox and Gamecube have just bearily begun to be challanged, and while the PS2 is obviously a little dated, most gamers are perfectly happy with the titles available for it. When you have gamers looking in awe at screen shots of Zelda: TTP and FF12, you know its not quite yet the time to release a new system.

I think it's pretty obvious that Microsoft jumped the gun on this one. I think Sony is banking on the gen switch to be ripe by the time they push the PS3 out the door, but they may have also jumped the gun, too. The only one who totally avoids these pitfalls is Nintendo, because the Revolution is not designed to be a replacement for the GameCube in the traditional sense. I think we'll see GameCube titles being released far into the life of the Revolution. It is not "next gen" in the sense of, "the old system was not powerful enough to do the things we want to do", the fact that it's only about twice as powerful as the cube probably puts it closer to the XBox than the 360 or PS3. It's purpose is to introduce another type of gaming, entirely, that you can play along side your traditional GameCube style games.

The bottom line is, these new systems are not promising things that we are not already getting, to a certain degree, with the previous generation, they don't really take gaming to the "next level" like the Genesis, PS1, or PS2 did. The feeling I'll get from playing a game on the PS3 is probably going to be similar to the feeling I've gotten playing a game on the PS2. Where-as the PS2 added enough realism to really delve into new territory in terms of atmospheric elements that really changed the gameplay experience, and you could see that this was coming from before its launch.

This is the first generation in which I truly believe is being lead by Sony and Microsoft, not by the gaming community itself, it's just being forced upon us.

Re:No next generation hype...

[jchenx]

I figure anyone who makes a post that long and makes some decent points deserves a reply, so I'll bite ...

The 5th gen was a little more illusive, as the PS2/Gamecube/XBox era doesn't exactly add anything completely new that wasn't in the previous generation. But in this case, the pitfalls of the previous gen systems were becoming painfully obvious, and I think the general gaming community agreed that it was time to fix these things. This was the generation of attempting to achieve "realism", something the previous generation could bearily even strive for: the closest thing was probably FF8, but games of that graphical calliber were few and far between, and even in that case, we're still dealing with 2D backgrounds. Thus, it was becoming clear that the things that game manufacturers wanted to be able to do were not possible with the previous generation, so the PS2/GameCube/XBox were a welcomed update.

First of all, a quick correction, FF8 was actually made for the original Playstation. FFX was the first FF game for the PS2, with the pretty graphics, and that's probably the game you were thinking of.

Anyway, I wanted to point out something about your last statement, that going from the PS/N64 generation to the PS2/Xbox/GC one was a "welcome update". I think that's the case with EVERY generation, including the one that's upcoming (it won't be complete till the Revolution and PS3 are released). The technical leap from graphics/technology may not be so obvious at first, but that's been the expectation with every generation. If you recall, the first launch games for the PS2 were not all that pretty or great, and a number of folks questioned whether or not they were truly next-gen. Of course, it took the release of games like FFX and GTA3 a year or two later before it was really obvious that the PS2 was far better than the PS.

It's going to be the same way with the 360, PS3, and Revolution. The really outstanding games are probably going to be released a few months to a year after the initial launch. Actually, if you take a look at reviews for the 360 version of Fight Night Round 3, you'll find that a lot of people are saying that game's graphics are really setting the "next-gen" bar. (Unfortunately there are apparently gameplay issues that mar the title as well)

I'll admit that the exception is Nintendo. As we all know and hopefully admit, Mario 64 was a launch title for the N64 and blew everything out of the water. For many, that game was the epitome of taking 2D platforms to the next dimension (literally!). It would have been great if MS did something similar, like with Halo 3, but given that Halo 2 shipped just a year earlier, that was pretty much impossible. I think Sony is trying to hype up the next version of Killzone to be their "Mario 64", but we'll just have to see when that game releases, as the previous game wasn't all that good. I do hope Nintendo does launch with an outstanding game, as Luigi's Mansion obviously didn't do it. I suspect they'll launch with a first-party title (or two) that really defines why the Revolution controller really is the way to go for the future.

The graphical capabilities of the XBox and Gamecube have just bearily begun to be challanged, and while the PS2 is obviously a little dated, most gamers are perfectly happy with the titles available for it. When you have gamers looking in awe at screen shots of Zelda: TTP and FF12, you know its not quite yet the time to release a new system.

Funny you mention FFXII. After playing a couple of 360 launch games, I went back to playing RPGs, namely Dragon Quest VIII for the PS2. It includes an FFXII demo disc inside. I actually thought quite the opposite of your comment. "Man, this looks butt-ugly! I can't WAIT till the next Final Fantasy game comes out for a next-gen system.

Re:No next generation hype...

[rseuhs]

The only one who totally avoids these pitfalls is Nintendo, because the Revolution is not designed to be a replacement for the GameCube in the traditional sense.

IMO, Sony also avoids the issue because they will keep selling the PS2 for many more years (similar to what they did with the PS1 after the PS2 launch).

Re:No next generation hype...

[7Prime]

It was interesting to hear you're reply, because I think we both tend to have similar interests in gaming, though we're just looking at things from a few different angles. First I'll clarify some points:

First of all, a quick correction, FF8 was actually made for the original Playstation. FFX was the first FF game for the PS2, with the pretty graphics, and that's probably the game you were thinking of.

I laughed when I read this, because I totally understand how my comment could have been interpretted that way. No, what I meant was that FF8 was one of the few games on the PSX that had a moderate amount of success at striving towards some sort of realism. On a side note, it's one of my absolute favorite games, so I may be a bit biased. FFX, interestingly, was made by the same team that did FF8, which is why they aimed at a similar, more realistic graphical style, as apposed to FF9 or FF11.

I disagree. Recent reports from the Revolution dev kit appear to indicate that the system is actually comparable to the 360 and PS3. Claims that it's not powerful, equating it to the original Xbox is pure FUD. Sheesh, the GC itself is already comparable to the Xbox. Have you not seen screenshots of Zelda:TTP? Also, any concerns that the new controller will not work with all game genres are unfounded, since it's expected that you'll be able to "insert" it into a more traditional controller.

Okay, I have heard totally the opposite. The last I heard was that developers complained that Nintendo's design was not powerful enough for the games they wanted to create, so Nintendo slightly improved upon the power of the system, but that they're current statements, as of late was "about twice as powerful" as the cube. Now, to be sure, these "x times more powerful" statements are very silly. When I think about it, the PS2 FEELS about twice as powerful as the PS1, and I don't expect the PS3 to feel 34x more powerful, or whatever ungodly number Sony pulled out of their ass a few months ago, so twice as powerful seems like a great bullshit estimate that will definitely satisfy me. Regarding the GameCube power vs. XBox... I actually tend to agree with you on that, I always viewed the two systems to be approximately equal... though I sorta wanted to avoid a flame war, since many XBox fanboys I know pride themselves with having "the most powerful system". The fact is, we really just don't know yet. Nintendo's marketting revolve around what opportunities the new system provides, and not just on arbitrary numbers, as Sony and MS have been basing their marketting around. When all the pieces fall, I could well imagine that the Revolution is every bit as powerful as the other two, though Nintendo will have chosen to play that aspect down from a marketting standpoint.

I think you're forgetting about a few things that the new systems are bringing to us. A lot of people have been really excited about the latest version of the Live Arcade, about it bringing down the costs of games, and enabling indie developers to reach more gamers. As you may know, Nintendo has already announced they'll be doing something similar with their backwards compatibility library, although specific details remain to be seen. Similarly, a lot of folks are also digging the new achievement system with the 360, and how it's a return of the "beating your high score" fun of the arcades. And finally, you forget about the uniqueness of the Revolution controller, and Nintendo's claim on how it will bring in droves of casual gamers to their platform.

Yes, but these features, including the Revolution controller (of which I'm extremely excited to get my hands on) are not so much "moving gaming forward" but branching out into side areas. Previous generations were about advancing pre-existing concepts, or perminantly embracing technologies that were were fairly obvious next steps (as with the introduction of the 3D era). Things like experimental contro

Re:FPS'ers and the Xbox?-Doing the keyboard boogie

[Repton]

...which is why I've never understood the attraction of the wasd keys. "We have all kinds of functionality controlled by the keyboard. So, let's make people shove their left hand all the way over to one side!"

Confused by your post.

[Inoshiro]

" As far as I'm concerned, the 360 wasn't launched before it was ready, but before the manufacturing process was ready - not really a point for failure. Software always comes later.... Sony launched the PSP here over a year behind its Japanese launch, and we still seem to have a certain lack of decent games for it - month in month out I go to the shops and it's the same damn games!

Have you not looked at the 360 lineup? EA n+1 ware, Gun, and PGR3. It's the same stuff you could get on the Xbox, but it a different coloured wrapper.

This has to be the most confusing paragraph. If the PSP has had forever to get games, why does it suck so much?

Maybe you'll tell us why the 360 won't be a PSP.

" but I did pick one up in early January and so far I'm pleased with what it does. Ok, so there's no 'killer' game, but I wouldn't consider myself a hardcore gamer, but the few games I do have I find entertaining and great fun with friends."

Your sentence structure is a little hard to read here, but it sounds like you said that despite there being no real reason to own a 360 game-wise, you still bought one despite not being a hardcore gamer (who would buy it if it had nothing for it). Like most people, you find the games fun (if you're not hardcore, you'll have a smaller pool of experience, and probably won't know bad games as quickly -- the first ones always seem better).

This means Microsoft won; you had other options available, but you went with their product, even though you haven't given a clear reason to.

"I'm not realy 100% sure what people mean by a 'next generation game', I bought the console specifically for its online capabilities and its ability to be a media extender.

And for your money, you could've also got a Mac Mini, USB controller adapter (allowing you to use Xbox or PS2 controllers on your Mac Mini), and used its built-in NIC to play Mame (and NES, SNES, N64, PSX) games online, or played DVD movies on your TV via its DVI connector.

In that respect, the Mac Mini (which costs the same as a 360 + games) seems a better deal.

"In those respects it's very, very good, and Nintendo and Sony have a long way to go to catch up with the likes of Xbox Live."

This point is rather moot. Given the incredibly small # of Xbox Live subscribers, it's no surprise that Nintendo beat the Microsoft records with the number of people online playing Mario Kart DS last month.

So, there again, no real reason to choose the 360.

"I'd be interested as to what people exactly thought the 360, PS3 and Revolution were going to do for gaming really. Every time a console is released a wave of hype about its features appears. We never really found out what an Emotion Engine enabled the PS2 to do differently,"

The EE was both a GPU and a T&L engine. If you were an insane assembler master, you could make something like MGS3: Snake Eater. If you weren't so hot, you got the plasticy crap-ware that most titles seemed to be. Another person argued that this is a good idea because it means that people will learn and gain "full power" over the console later.

People, programming is not an MMO grind. You do not "get better" over time regardless of starting skill level. Most of the developers on these games don't know how to wring out the last bits of performance. That's why the Itanium did so poorly -- you have to have a good development environment if you want good software.

"... I'm a bit too old school to like the Revolution controller"

Even though you're not a hardcore gamer. At least they're doing something different.

"All I bought my 360 for was to play HD games against other people in my lounge and the rest of the world, and in those respects it's been a success for me, and evidently for all the other people I'm playing against..."

and Microsoft.

Why buy the 360?

Re:Confused by your post.

[antic]

And for your money, you could've also got a Mac Mini, USB controller adapter (allowing you to use Xbox or PS2 controllers on your Mac Mini), and used its built-in NIC to play Mame (and NES, SNES, N64, PSX) games online, or played DVD movies on your TV via its DVI connector.

The guy was talking about playing games. Are you seriously comparing NES, SNES, N64 and PSX games to the Xbox 360, let alone original Xbox games? I have 40 or so PSX games and to go back and give them a shot is such a serious backwards step that you laugh for about five minutes and then switch it off.

Re:Confused by your post.

[mboverload]

You're the idiot if you think your 500 dollar mac mini would be able to play an N64 or PSX game.

Re:Confused by your post.

[Anonymous Coward]

"People, programming is not an MMO grind. You do not "get better" over time regardless of starting skill level."

What the fuck are you talking about? Look, if YOU don't know a damn thing about programming, that's fine. But don't go presuming to know how others became decent programmers.

Re:Confused by your post.

[idonthack]

The guy was talking about playing games.

Yep.
 

Are you seriously comparing NES, SNES, N64 and PSX games to the Xbox 360, let alone original Xbox games?

What's wrong with that? They're all games.
 

I have 40 or so PSX games and to go back and give them a shot is such a serious backwards step that you laugh for about five minutes and then switch it off.

So sell them to someone who will play them, instead of letting them collect dust.
 
Anyways, if he was "old school" like he mentioned, I'm sure he could enjoy some good emulated games.

Re:Confused by your post.

[idonthack]

I played emulated N64 games on a computer that had lower specs than a Mac Mini. The PSX was less powerful than the N64, so I'm sure it would run pretty nice too. And remember that SNES, Genesis, NES, or even older games are still options.

Re:Confused by your post.

[aftk2]

Huh? I played PS1 games on my 400Mhz PowerMac G4? Are you talking about PS2 emulation?

Granted, N64 games didn't run on that box, but a Mac Mini is a much, much different beast.

Re:Confused by your post.

[Sysgen]

"This point is rather moot. Given the incredibly small # of Xbox Live subscribers, it's no surprise that Nintendo beat the Microsoft records with the number of people online playing Mario Kart DS last month. So, there again, no real reason to choose the 360." Just wow. This is a joke post right?

Re:Confused by your post.

[Slashcrap]

This means Microsoft won; you had other options available, but you went with their product, even though you haven't given a clear reason to.

Your obsession with other peoples choice of gaming device makes me strongly suspect that you have never been intimate with a lady.

I also suspect that you will reply flaming me for being a "fanboy" of some variety. This will tend not to disprove the above statement.

Your sentence structure is a little hard to read here, but it sounds like you said that despite there being no real reason to own a 360 game-wise, you still bought one despite not being a hardcore gamer (who would buy it if it had nothing for it).

Irony++

Re:Confused by your post.

[apoc06]

i think the point he was trying to make was that its not guaranteed. some teams do get better over time. other teams are under such pressure to crank out /something/ that they never get the chance to fully tap into the power of the system to the level of other more prestigious teams without such constraints.

there is a reason that movie-based games churned out to meet or beat the film to the theaters suck in general, whereas a firm that can afford to take years to "get it done when its done" like say... kojima productions, or bungie can crank out the best of the best time and time again.

just having the experience of ten titles under your belt does not equate to being a better programmer than a company that only has five...

Re:Confused by your post.

[dootbran]

what? I'll agree that guy's an idiot but not for thinking a mini would play PSX games.

I used to play PSX games on a ~500mhz P3 back in the day. I'm not sure what options are available for the mac as far PSX emulators but assuming that one exists I'd guess the mini would play them fine.

Re:FPS'ers and the Xbox?-Doing the keyboard boogie

[Zaplocked]

Sticking my arms straight forward (perpendicular to my body), my left hand is right over wasd, while my right is over my mouse.
I'm not sure what you mean by having it shoved way over - is your left arm coming out of your chest?

Who Cares How Much It Weighs?

[seigniory]

Who really cares how big their console and power supply are and how much they weigh? As long as it's not 250lbs and the size of a 7U Compaq server, what's the incentive to redesign it? Redesign it and all you'll do it piss off the early adopters that need th elatest and greatest.

I've had mine in my entertainment system since I got it in November, and have never thought about how big it is, nor the brick power adapter that's nicely hidden behind it. It fits in nicely next to my cable box, Tivo, and receiver.

Re:Who Cares How Much It Weighs?

[Xugumad]

I care about size/weight of stuff. I move house semi-frequently (suffice to say the housing market near where I work is a nightmare), so having small, light items to move is a bonus.

And you know what? The Xbox 360s size is a complete non-issue; it's smaller than the XBox, to start with. It's a bit heavy, but not problematically so.

Re:Who Cares How Much It Weighs?

[ClamIAm]

If you want to take your system over to a friend's house, it's a pain. If you want to take it on a trip with you, it takes up a bunch of space.

Also, the original Xbox was received very poorly in Japan partly because of the butt-ugliness of the machine and the huge space it took up, keeping in mind the size of housing there.

Re:Who Cares How Much It Weighs?

[jchenx]

If you want to take your system over to a friend's house, it's a pain. If you want to take it on a trip with you, it takes up a bunch of space.

I heard a rumor that the Gamecube was originally designed for that reason, hence the "handle". Most people thought it was butt ugly, myself included. :)

Also, the original Xbox was received very poorly in Japan partly because of the butt-ugliness of the machine and the huge space it took up, keeping in mind the size of housing there.

The 360 was actually designed by a Japanese team, so I guess MS learned their lesson. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the design (it just looks "cluttered"), but having the custom faceplates are nice feature.

Re:Who Cares How Much It Weighs?

[SilentChris]

"Also, the original Xbox was received very poorly in Japan partly because of the butt-ugliness of the machine and the huge space it took up, keeping in mind the size of housing there."

Actually, it's more because the Japanese have a history of hating American products. The Xbox 360 looks fine, is relatively space-conservative but still failed. How many Fords, Dodge and Jeeps are sold over there?

Re:Who Cares How Much It Weighs?

[ClamIAm]

The 360 is not significantly smaller than the original Xbox.

Re:FPS'ers and the Xbox?-Doing the keyboard boogie

[Anonymous Coward]

Arms forward, prependicular to your body? Braaaains...

Incidentally, it should be very very simple to move your keyboard an inch to the left. Then your hand would land on rdfg, which incidentally is centered around the little knob on the f key (on my keyboard anyway) so easy to find without looking, and your hand gains an extra 8 easy to reach controls. The pinky is no longer useless!

Games.net is on something...

[Xugumad]

> ...don't these guys realize how dangerously huge and clunky the Xbox 360 already is?

Yeah, I mean, it's so much bigger than the original XBox... no, wait, what? Look, it's not a small console, but then, neither is the PS3!

> Top priorities for a redesigned Xbox 360 (we'll call it "Xbox 360 NEO...): adding an HD-DVD drive, or at least a slot-loading DVD drive;
So what the hell is that thing on the front of my Xbox 360, a cup holder? I will agree that releasing a new model with built in HD-DVD is probably a good idea, though, so they're not losing the entire HD playback market to the PS3.

> integrating that ridiculous "power brick" AC adaptor into the main chassis; ... smoothing out all known hardware flaws and overheating problems; and finally, slashing the weight of the whole system by at least 25 percent.

So, their plan is to integrate a unit with high heat output into the main chassis, remove some of the weight (which pretty much means cutting down on the heatsinks), reducing the surface area for it to lose heat through, and at the same time resolving all the heating problems? This will be done through the use of magic pixies, right???

> $450-600 is a reasonable introductory price for a streamlined, enhanced Xbox 360

Ah, right. So being more expensive, and less powerful than your immediate competition is a good idea? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone has seriously suggested the PS3 will launch at above $399, and while how much is certainly up for debate, I also can't see it being less powerful...

> adding an embedded hard drive (ideally a 4 GB flash RAM microdrive)
Why would I want such a thing? External HD = good - I want to be able to pull the drive from my console, and connect it to another. It's not like it's some unwieldy mess that's cluttering up my living room, it's a small module stuck to the side for goodness sake.

> More importantly, gadget freaks have proven they'll buy the same gadget again and again if it's made smaller, sleeker, and more powerful (see the iPod Nano, the slimline PS2, the Nintendo DS Lite, and countless other examples).

Do they have any actual numbers to support the idea that significant numbers of people are replacing perfectly functional devices with smaller ones? In particular, in the case of the iPod Nano and the slimline PS2, they came out after long enough that people's original version of the device could be wearing out (for example, my PS2 will occaisionally refuse to play discs). Nintendo DS Lite - it isn't even out yet, you can't claim anything about its sales!

> Embrace lower game costs and digital game distribution over Xbox Live
So, with my XBox 360 NEO, with it's 4gb HD, where exactly am I going to put those games?

Re:Games.net is on something...

[MikeBabcock]

To be honest, the removable drives confuse me (on both platforms). Unless I can connect two at once (like memory cards on the PS2) and transfer data or at least access both, I don't really want this feature.

I want to bring my game data to my friend's house and not lose his at the same time. Sounds like I'll be using memory cards (with are memory stick for the PS3).

Yes, Your Post Is Stupid

[antek9]

First off, what makes you think you can throw the first stone at fanboys when actually you're the biggest - though, still obviously beardless - one of them? Ah, so you meant the _other systems'_ fanboys, riiight then. Aho ya, anta.

I can't fathom that in a week where all the talk has been about how much longer the PS3 is going to be delayed and that it'll cost around $800, people are still trying to say that it's the fault of a next-gen console that's already to market and costs half of what the PS3 apparently will, that is "hurting" the games industry.

You mean it has been FUD week all over, with biased and misinformed 'studies' from Merrill Lynch and - oh well, why use a plural, there has been but one so-called study? If you had followed all that talk you might be aware that even IF ML's production cost tag came out correct (and it's a big IF), that would not necessarily mean the price would amount to the same number. MS also sells its consoles at a loss, so let's leave it to better skilled analysts to find out the real numbers some time, see who will be making a bigger minus on every sale.

the PS2 had issues scratching discs and sometimes outiright destroying DVD movies, as well as several fire-related recalls... this happens when you ship a product to a lot of people.

Yes it does, but if it also happens when you ship a product to just a few thousand people and under reproductible conditions to anyone who tries, then that is definitely _not_ a feature (to put it into rather mild words). If one in 100,000 PS2 units shipped turns out to be defective, that's one thing, but if one in 1000 Xbox2 units (let's not follow the naming propaganda, it's not like there have been 359 generations of Xboxen before...) is faulty and has to be returned because of repeated overheating and crashing, then you might look like a fool by stating that well, all consoles have had their share of technical problems. If there was no quality assurance eager enough to eradicate issues like that before they were delivered to everyone's living rooms, then that can only mean one thing: invasion! - no, errh, I mean, that was a rushed launch.

In short: advantage Sony & Nintendo. Let's see who can serve an ace.

Re:The PC is the killer app.

[JLennox]

They work as a standard USB HID. Either a tiny amount of soldering or a cheap adaptor will serve you.

Quantity of sales matters

[SEWilco]

"If they are still filling back-orders, how can mediocre sales be an issue?"

I have a great new game console. Want to buy one? If three people want them, but can only build two a month, is my new console the best selling one in the market?

Backorders do not indicate a significant market force.

Hold on...

[dyslexicbunny]

Can we just wait until both the PS3 and the Revolution release and let a year or two pass before we decide who has and hasn't failed? These articles are meaningless crap meant only to generate web traffic. It isn't news; it's just pointless hypothesizing about what went wrong. I'm just venting some after reading article after pointless article but this isn't even /.'s fault. Is anyone else really tired of looking at empty analysis?

Dear Gaming Sites,
YOU HAVE NOTHING MEANINGFUL TO WRITE ABOUT!!! JUST TAKE THE DAY OFF!!!

On the other hand, I don't know how the gaming industry will ever recover from the great lava flood of 2011. MS, Sony, and Nintendo didn't even see it coming. How will the market ever recover?!?

Re:Hold on...

[jchenx]

I totally agree. There are too many articles proclaiming doom and gloom for a console that's only been out a few months, and two consoles that haven't even shipped yet! It all depends on what article you read.

Unfortunately, all the platform fanbois and zealots can't get enough of the hype. I liken it to those "BEN AND JEN IN SPLITSVILLE!?" tabloid articles you see in grocery stores. The flashiest, craziest, most controversial headlines will sucker in gamers in droves. All meaningless, but hey, it pays the bills ...

Re:FPS'ers and the Xbox?-Doing the keyboard boogie

[imroy]

"We have all kinds of functionality controlled by the keyboard. So, let's make people shove their left hand all the way over to one side!"

Yes, all the way over to the left... where their left hand already is. My god!

The only trouble I can imagine is with left handed players. The WASD+mouse setup works just fine for right handed players, but almost every game allows the keys/buttons to be fully customized for lefties or other purposes. I guess someone could play with the mouse in their left hand, and use the existing arrow keys with their right hand.

Re:FPS'ers and the Xbox?-Doing the keyboard boogie

[Repton]

Yeah, but your left hand's controling the whole keyboard. So why not put it in the middle of the keyboard? I use tdgh instead of wasd. Means I can access a whole lot more keys with no hand movement at all, and the rest of them with less movement, compared with wasd.

FPS'ers and the Xbox?-I sing the keyboard electric

[Anonymous Coward]

"Yes, all the way over to the left... where their left hand already is. My god!"

I'm betting that all the people who prefer KB+M can type 30+ WPM.* Touch typists need not apply. Now all I need to work on is my weapon accuracy. Consistent head shots are hard.

*Side thought: I wonder how well those chorded keyboards work in a FPS?

Re:The PC is the killer app.

[Deathlizard]

You need a driver from Microsoft's hardware site to make the controller work, and it appears that they don't have a windows 2000 driver for it. I don't see why the XP driver wouldn't work but it's a installer so it might deny installation if it detects Windows 2000.

Just for the record, you also don't need the actual xbox headset for the headset portion to work, just about any 2.5mm headset (most cell phone sets) will activate the functionality since it's built into the controller and not the headset dongle. The 360 one just adds more controls like a volume and mute function, and meshes well with the controller.

The whole setup cost me about $45. (25 for a used 360 controller and 20 for the optional headset) I also haven't tried any third party wired 360 controllers, but I don't see why they wouldn't work with this driver. Also the wireless controllers will not work here. Just the wired ones.

lose

[aichpvee]

Games.net guy fails for using the phrase "In short". He fails twice for using it to sum up ONE sentence. This is one of the most over-used as well as poorly-used cliches in game "journalism" and people should be fired for using it.

Re:FPS'ers and the Xbox?-Doing the keyboard boogie

[LocalH]

Um, yeah, when you stick your arms out, they're perpendicular to your body.

Or do you live in Bizarro world?

Xbox 360...

[JohnathanG]

I own the Xbox 360, I personaly feel that the major flaw's that is has are software related. Although a bigger HDD and a HD-DVD player would have made the system much better. I question everyone who feels the need to say one will be better then the other.. I personaly will own both the Xbox 360 and the PS3.. I did the same with the PS2 and Xbox.. One system will always have certain games the other will not. Besides do you really want one side to win??? Sure lets say M$/Sony wins and the other decides to give up. What does that mean for us? No competition is never good for the consumer.

Re:The PC is the killer app.

[Anonymous Coward]

how the fuck did you find a used 360 controller? maybe someone bought the controllers but got sick of waiting for a console to buy...

Re:FPS'ers and the Xbox?-Doing the keyboard boogie

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but when you stick you stick your arms out front, you also look like a zombie, hence the brains reference.

Although I must say I might quite like Bizarro world. It sounds interesting.

Putting backwards compatibility on the back burner

[Channard]

.. didn't help. There have been no updates since late Dec. A games article popped up saying the entire team were on their holidays, and that there would be no updates till March at the earliest!

Which, Microsoft of course denied saying everything was fine. Well, unless there's a BC update in the next day, that would make them filthy liars.

Don't forget 1961

[Otis2222222]

Don't forget about the oft-missed London: 1961 expansion pack.

The firewire port on the PS2

[Otis2222222]

Along those same lines, I have long wondered why there is a firewire port on the PS2. Nice that they put one in "for future use" but I never heard of anything that used it.

Side note: Anything on a console that's there "for future use" will never get used. Didn't the original NES have an expansion port on the bottom that never got used?

Re:The firewire port on the PS2

[pnice]

Along those same lines, I have long wondered why there is a firewire port on the PS2. Nice that they put one in "for future use" but I never heard of anything that used it.

That firewire port is used to connect multiple PS2s together so you can play against someone else on a different TV. Like system link for the Xbox. Some games that work with it are Armored Core 2, Unreal Tournament, Gran Turismo 3. I think you could have 6 PS2s hooked up together on Gran Turismo 3 (as long as you had a TV for each one). I've hooked up two PS2s before but never more than that.

Side note: Anything on a console that's there "for future use" will never get used.

The Sega Genesis had an expansion port on the right side "for future use" and it was used for the Sega CD. The N64 had the expansion port for the 4 meg ram pack. It was used. The N64 DD plugged into the bottom of the system. I'm sure there are more but those are a few I could think of right away.

That'd be great!

[Fr05t]

It's always entertaining as hell to watch someone else punch themselves in the nuts. If this is where MS goes, that's pretty much what they'd be doing.

Worthless article...

[chudgoo]

This article is just some ignorant wishlist...

#1 Redesign the Xbox 360 hardware by early 2007

The weakling found a 12lb home console to be a problem. A heavy HOME console is really the last thing anyone should care about. How often do you find yourself moving it? This is not a portable system. Set it down.
The only ones who should care are microsoft as they have to pay for shipping them, and apparently they don't care either.
HD-DVD drive inclusion? eh... I could take it or leave it...

Raising the price to cover all of these sleek new things? HELL NO.

#2 Release the ultimate game--a crown jewel for the Xbox 360

But of course! We've all been so STUPID! The ULTIMATE game! ...I'm sure no one had given that one any thought yet...
So stupid...

#3 Lock down Grand Theft Auto 4 as an Xbox 360 exclusive

This series is clearly on its way out anyway. What good does it do Microsoft to own (at any cost) a loaf of stale bread?
The *movement* that GTA started is what matters now. (the pebble has sunk but the wave is growning)

Besides, does this sound right? "Microsoft. We bring you the other guy's leftovers."

#4 Turn the Xbox 360 into the MMO console

So...make the public's perception of the console even more negative. The nerd box? Xbox live makes it completely doable but why on earth would you want to make MMOs what you are known for? These games go on for years which makes little business sense...even with subscription fees. Least innovative genre evar.
I'm sure MS could sell you four quick paced action games in the time required to watch the opening cinema of your average MMO.

#5 Embrace lower game costs and digital game distribution over Xbox Live

While that's a nice idea and all I would have to argue that this had better be one hell of an encryption algorithm. So you store the games locally and a server provides the key to 'unlock' it? What's to stop a LOCAL proxy from doing just that? MS is still hurting from their last romp with piracy.

This made me chuckle..
If it's good enough, Microsoft could sub-license this system to other publishers, and eventually Nintendo, Sony, and any other major entertainment companies who enter the video game fracas.

All the eggs in one basket! Sounds good!

Re:Worthless article...

[DarkJC]

I agree with most of your statement, except this: While that's a nice idea and all I would have to argue that this had better be one hell of an encryption algorithm. So you store the games locally and a server provides the key to 'unlock' it? What's to stop a LOCAL proxy from doing just that? MS is still hurting from their last romp with piracy. That's definitely doable, just look at Steam. It's not actually that bad an idea, although the 360 would need hell of a lot bigger hard drive than what it has now.

Re:Worthless article...

[Fancia]

A heavy HOME console is really the last thing anyone should care about. How often do you find yourself moving it? This is not a portable system. Set it down.

More often than you would think, actually. My boyfriend doesn't own an Xbox, but he and I both really enjoy playing each other in the various fighting games I own. That sometimes means carrying it over to his house which, with the original system's genuinely massive size, is no small feat. ;b

Re:Yes, Your Post Is Stupid

[Jearil]

but if one in 1000 Xbox2 units (let's not follow the naming propaganda, it's not like there have been 359 generations of Xboxen before...)

Exactly. This is why I put a sticker on my N64 over the logo to really say NES3. I mean, come on! Nintendo didn't release 62 other consoles between the SNES and N64! I also renamed my SNES the NES2 btw, can't stand that marketing hype.

64 indeed!

It's just a name, they can name it whatever they want. Numbers don't have to mean generations. Personally I would have preferred Xbox 2, but honestly the name means little in reality.

A joke?

[AcidLacedPenguiN]

All I can ask is, is TFA a joke? it's awesome, I laughed hysterically at every one of them.
#1 is a parody of the PS2
#2 is just plain mental. Only one console has ever NOT wanted a killer app, and that console was the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Phantom_(game_sys tem)
#3 is a parody of the PS2
#4 is just dumb
#5 I couldn't read anymore, due to the hysterics.

Re:The PC is the killer app.

[Tenric]

I think I owe you my first born. I've been looking for a good PC controller and haven't found one. I play a lot of ROMs and I like the feel of a console controler in my hand and haven't been able to find one. Didn't know you could use the 360 controller on the PC.

GTA is useless

[LKM]

The article claims that that MS can seriously hurt Sony if they get GTA exclusively. I don't think so.

Sure, GTA was last generation's killer app. It basically made the PS2. However, that won't happen twice. Getting GTA exclusively is like Nintendo's buying Resident Evil 4 for the Cube. It changed absolutely nothing, because Resident Evil was the previous generation's killer app, just like GTA is now. And that was despite Resident Evil 4 being an utterly awesome and fresh game, while Rockstar has done nothing but release incremental upgrades to an increasingly stale franchise.

Nobody knows which game will decide this generation. Maybe no single game will. Maybe it will be a combination of great games. Who knows. Which console(s) get to have GTA won't make a huge difference.

Re:Yes, Your Post Is Stupid

[Slashcrap]

Yes it does, but if it also happens when you ship a product to just a few thousand people and under reproductible conditions to anyone who tries, then that is definitely _not_ a feature (to put it into rather mild words). If one in 100,000 PS2 units shipped turns out to be defective, that's one thing, but if one in 1000 Xbox2 units (let's not follow the naming propaganda, it's not like there have been 359 generations of Xboxen before...) is faulty and has to be returned because of repeated overheating and crashing, then you might look like a fool by stating that well, all consoles have had their share of technical problems. If there was no quality assurance eager enough to eradicate issues like that before they were delivered to everyone's living rooms, then that can only mean one thing: invasion! - no, errh, I mean, that was a rushed launch.

This is one of the most confused, retarded and badly written paragraphs I have ever seen on the Internet.

Is there any way I can persuade you to commit suicide with just words? Please confirm asap.

Re:The PC is the killer app.

[PhoenixOne]

The 'core' system comes with a wired controller. People buy the core (because they can) and then replace the wired controller with a wireless one.

Xbox 180...let's go back and try something else

[sparkMonkey]

Well, they did abandon some of their original specifications, so this could make it up to the people that are waiting for a better console. But they would really piss off a lot of people with the latest xbox who always want the latest systems...I doubt they would have any way of upgrading the old units. Retailers could get in on it and offer better deals for buying your used console to upgrade to one of the newer xbox systems, but the value of the old opnes is either going to go way down, or the new ones are going to be priced astronomically. That is, if the rumors are true...

Enjoying my 360...

[Vesuvias]

Well I just happened to be lucky and snaged a core system this saturday (last system at EB everyone else in town was sold out). And I am very happy with the purchase. I didn't buy any games with it just a live sub (and mic) and a vga adapter. I set it next to my computer, pluged it into my dual input lcd monitor that is hooked to my main pc, rented Kameo from blockbuster and I have been having a hi-res gaming blast ever since.

In Kameo I have thrown ice spears at dragons, rode a war horse around a battlefield filled with elves and trolls (think warcraft orcs), rolled around as a giant spiked pinball crushing trolls, swam around chasing submarines as a torpedo shooting squid and roasted more than a few trolls alive as a fire breathing dragon. In short I am having a blast!

Hate and preach anti M$ all you want. The 360 is a great machine.

I have a mid level pc with a 6800 gt in it, I play pc games all the time. So why did the 360 have an impact?

Cost effectiviness/bang for the buck. I know its outside Microsofts intended model but Gamefly is a large reason why I bought a 360. 21.95$ a month for any game I want to play is exactly the cable like gaming distribution model I want to participate in. I have payed blizzard 14.95 a month (and SOE/Verant before that). So 21.95$ is hardley a stretch for what I get.

The 300$ I paid for the console is a full 1/3 of what I paid for my PC! And thats with me newegging all the parts and putting it togeather myself. Hell my graphics card cost me 300. And this thing would eat my PC for breakfast spec wise (if only it had a mouse and a keyboard... grumble).

Say what you want. I am hi-res gaming for cheaper than you do on a PC.

Back to the topic. If I were a betting man I would say that while next gen stuff is looming, gamers still need thier fix. The 360 isn't causing the slow down. My bet is that the rental market (you have one example right here), and the MMORPG market (consume so much time gamers can't play and pay for anything else) is what is causing this issue. Six pack Joe gamer doesn't even know when the revolution or ps3 are comming out, it's hardly effecting his spending habits.

Ves

Re:FPS'ers and the Xbox?-Doing the keyboard boogie

[LocalH]

Yeah, but when you're sitting at a desk, your arms may not be precisely and fully perpendicular, but your forearm is certainly in a position that is approximately perpendicular to your torso.

The Revolution will own the FPS genre

[aliquis]

Yes, mouse and keyboard owns dual analogue sticks anytime. But the revolution controller will do better (except it might strain your wrist a little after hours of game play i suppose.)