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Sony Announces Date for Blu-Ray Roll Out
yermoungder writes "Reuters is reporting that 'Sony Pictures on Tuesday said it aims to deliver its new Blu-ray DVD format to U.S. stores on May 23 to coincide with the entry of compatible disc players, a new step in an industry war for control of home movie viewing.'"
sorry, but this is important:
Our FedEx rep just brought us delicious cup cakes from Starbucks.
UPS: I expect an iPod or a PSP.
That is all.
In more ways than one, it would seem.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
I see myself picking up one of these as they drift into obsolecense.
But I'm not buying either format if they can't put out a player for $300 or less. If PS3 is that "$300 Bluray player" then so be it, I'll get a PS3.
What barely noticeble "feature" do I "need" with blu-ray that I can't get with regular DVDs?
I'm not going to buy any of these discs.
I hope this caused some synapses to fire.
this has been hashed a million times. Blueray vs hd-dvd its getting old
Reuters is reporting that 'slashdot poster Vertinox on Tuesday said he aims to deliver its new Blu-ray DVD format to his home on day that coincides with Sony prying his old DVD player from his dead cold hands.
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
Given Sony's history with its proprietary formats (e.g. Beta and AIT) I would not invest in Blue-Ray until it is well established.
UNIX/Linux Consulting
blu-ray will never win over HD-DVD. it breaks at least two cardinal rules of naming products:
1) it drops a vowel.
2) it rhymes with gay (bengay was a fluke).
If the players are only going to be outputing at full resolution through HDMI and not component as well as I've read in some previous articles, then I'll be waiting for players that will. Even most new TVs only come with one HDMI port (if they have one at all), and I'm already using that for another device.
"0101100101? It's just jibberish. *looks in mirror, gasps* 1010011010@!? AHHHHHH!!"
So, what exactly is the reason for customer to upgrade to either HD-DVD or BluRay?
I only see one fundamental benefit between $NEW_DVD_FORMAT and DVD:
1) larger capacity - whether this mean more content or higher resolution.
I see many drawbacks between $NEW_DVD_FORMAT and DVD:
1) more expensive media and released product -- why is a consumer going to pay more for a BluRay movie than a DVD? I bet the movie studios will say "because that will be their only choice"... As to resolution, how many people are willing to pay more *PER MOVIE* for better than current DVD resolution. There has been such a long and successful marketing campaign for DVDs that convinced people that DVD resolution is *GREAT!*. Now someone's going to have to convince people that DVDs suck. Yeah, right...
2) DRM - nobody wants to *PAY EXTRA* for less control. If you want BluRay to succeed, give the players away for $25 - (meaning cheaper than a standalone DVD-ROM drive current cost).
3) format war uncertainties. Nobody wants to make the wrong choice and be stuck with worthless electronics junk.
4) lack of a problem - from a consumer standpoint, what exactly is wrong with DVDs? Seems like everyone loves them. What problem does BluRay solve? Oh, my freedom problem... yeah right
5) the next dvd jon - it's just a matter of time until any protection in these new formats is broken. Consumers will not stand for constant changes in fundamental technology formats as a primary strategy to enforce DRM.
Give it a year or two, just like DVD took some time to drop, we won't be seeing price drops right away. Especially with Blu-ray, as it is poised at $1k for entry level, while HD-DVD is only $500 at entry level. I also wouldn't hold my breath for the PS3 to hit $300 any time soon.
It will be interesting to see how this pans out, I have been waiting for HD content like this for over 4 years now. Though, the way it is ending up, I don't know if either format is going to win. Especially with the bullshit DRM and them screwing over people with out HDCP inputs.
Isn't there already talk about releasing a player that supports both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray? Doesn't that end the whole format war, much like the DVD+-RW drives ended the writeable DVD format war?
--- SER
Will the new Blu-Ray players have HDMI inputs as well? My HDTV set has only one HDMI input and that goes to the satellite box. How do I hook up a Blu-Ray player?
I know there are special switch boxes out there but they cost >$200 and are awkward to use.
Hope you take good care of your disks, you won't be copying then due to Sony/Blu-ray's DRM...
Personally, I'll opt for whatever format hoses me over the least, and supporting Sony's DRM tendencies is probably one of the last things I'd want to do...
Reuters is reporting that 'Sony Pictures on Tuesday said it aims to deliver its new Blu-ray DVD format to U.S. stores on May 23 to coincide with the entry of compatible disc players
So does this mean that 8.5GB Dual Layer DVDs will finally be coming down in price on May 23rd as well?
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
the fact that blu-ray's overboard drm scheme supposedly requires me to connect to the internet to watch a video, and will reject home-made disks which lack the "digital imprimature".
I usually watch tv only when the internet is down, so what exactly is my motivation for buying one of these things?
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
if I have only one digital port, it's going to the Direct-TV HD box. and all the rest of these guys can just go whistle.
it may be YOUR intellectual property, but it's MY credit card.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
I will only get one if a) They play my 300+ dvd movies i already have [both burned and original] b) the player comes down in price comparable to a normal DVD player c) the movies themselves sell for as much as DVDs cost now and d) I can play burned blue-ray movies [when the technology comes out for home use] in the player.
Click Click Bloody Click PANCAKES!
more expensive media and released product -- why is a consumer going to pay more for a BluRay movie than a DVD? I bet the movie studios will say "because that will be their only choice"..
It will be a long time before DVD is dethroned as the dominate form of video media. It will probably take
as long (if not longer) as it took for DVD to kill of VHS. Longer because DVD had the advantage of being
backward compatible with VHS, DVD's would play on all TV's that VHS could. (In some cases a video modulator
was required, but by the time DVD came out most tv's had composite video input jacks or SVideo or compoenent.
DVD works with all of these.
The new HD and BLURAY machines won't work with anything but the new digital tv's so right away their market share is limited. Only the hardware geeks will buy them for the first few years.
So, thought these were basically the same, but I'm rooting for HD-DVD.
i crosoft-hd-dvd.ars
It's got managed copy required, not optional for movie companies. You are guaranteed to be able to make a copy to play around your house, stream etc. With the RIAA now saying listening to your CD's on your iPod is a violation of copyright, this is an important thing. This will also mean a consistent experience for folks buying disks.
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/m
Also important, while DRM in general tends to be very consumer unfriendly, Sony seems to play the unfriendliest of anyone in this space.
Rootkits, and everything proprietary. They had minidisk, memory stick, and Universal Media Disk, which of course only every played in sony products. They also seem to dislike apple for developing a simple easy to use music DRM solution, and so keep on dropping out of new itunes launches.
That all said, whose to say which will end up winning. If the retailers just retailed a single product it would solve things. As it is, probably best to hold of buying those HDTV sets and next gen DVD players. Some folks are going to be really burned by this.
I have heard that there will be several manufacturers coming out with players that can handle both Blue Ray and HD DVD. With these dual format players one doesn't need to worry about being locked into one camp or the other.
2) DRM - nobody wants to *PAY EXTRA* for less control. If you want BluRay to succeed, give the players away for $25 - (meaning cheaper than a standalone DVD-ROM drive current cost).
A common misconception on Slashdot is that Joe Consumer understands the issues with DRM and even more importantly, cares.
While I am unlikely to buy the new format for this reason, nobody else in my family would care one whit about DRM.
>> "What would the robut do? Frame someone!"
I follow this standards battle with the same eager enthusiasm that I think many people reserve for reality TV, soap operas and sporting events. It really involves two titans that I can't help to both love and hate (gaming systems = great!, monopoly / drm = not great!) and a ton of significant other players (Toshiba, HP, Apple, Dell, Intel). This is great stuff, people! We'll be talking about this for years.
Specifically to this post, I'm just amazed over the last six months to what extent (in my own head and probably others), I've gone from thinking Sony was invincible to feeling it's really 50 / 50 with the HD DVD camp. I'm not sure what the merits are of releasing Blu-Ray movies next to a $1000 Blu-ray player given an imminent Playstation 3 delay. Especially knowing that one stand over are cheaper HD DVD movies and a $499 player. Poor sales goes on for six months or so and that's a huge psychological advantage for HD DVD.
I have to wonder if maybe I really assumed Blu-ray would win because of the Playsation 3 and not because of any merits compared to HD DVD on its own. And then I have to ask myself how would Blu-ray do without the Playstation 3? How would the Playstation 3 do without Blu-ray? (I can argue "better" -- out faster, cheaper. I can argue "worse" -- no tech advantage over XBox 360.) They are so fundamentally linked to each other that it really does feel like a double-or-nothing for Sony.
Can't wait for the next Slashdot tidbit regarding any of this.
Currently 720p hd quality can be encoded in xvid at 4.3 gigs while still preserving the noise from the film used to produce the movie.
with that efficient filesize i can put numerous movies on a single disk and not have to change disks all the time.
this is space shifting or fair use which managed copy will not give me.
I don't want my copies "managed" thank you very much, especially when M$ is cramming that down our throats as part of their new os.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
if I have only one digital port, it's going to the Direct-TV HD box. and all the rest of these guys can just go whistle.
If you only have one digital port, then it is about time you invested in a HDMI switch box. 1x4 versions are down to the $100 mark....
How many people are gonna ditch their DVD collections just so they can watch with a few more scan lines? I don't think enough to cause a mass market shift like the HD DVD and Blu-Ray people are hoping. It's just gonna fragment the home theatre market more, IMHO. Sure, it's cool. But how many people care enough to make it worth it? Especially if they're main target audience, the techie "early adopters", are pissed cuz of the DRM?
It's poetry with a beat behind it! And guns! They're like beatniks with automatic weapons.
I'll bet their new DVD product is not compatible with any other manufacturers stereos, TV's, or entertainment products... I'll stick with my regular disks till the war is over.
The only disc that will be made available for the new player is Gigli
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
...simply because Sony, the MPAA, and all other related parties want to force me to do so, in order to restrict me further to watching their recycled crap. No thanks.
Exactly. Sony have planned this all along, they wanted Blu-Ray and the PS3 to come out simultaneously so that both systems would support each other. PS3 owners instantly create an base of people who can watch and play Blu-Ray movies, and movie buffs buy PS3s so they can watch their shiny new Blu-Ray disks. While I cannot vouch for the eventual success of the PS3 or Blu-Ray, I do think Sony made a solid business move by knitting these two pieces of technology together.
Frankly, I'm going to just sit back and watch others get ripped off while the format wars start. I have not seen one compelling movie in the last 3 or 4 years so why would I want to see the same bad content only at a higher resolution for a significantly higher cost? Or maybe, its just that I like music more then movies. I'll buy a $2000 stereo system but not $2000 on a TV + disc player.
Heck, at the prices they're offered now, I might buy a few DVD players in case they decide to discontinue them for something with extra copy protection crap I never asked for. At least I'll be able to play plain-old music CDs, MP3 CDs and DVDs and the DVD movies I bought.
I just glanced at the headline and could've sworn it said "Sony Announces Death-Ray Roll Out"
need more coffee.
Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
Oh yeah... sign my up for that! Well... two out of four ain't bad but Sony needs the console version of the "killer game" like XBox's Halo. Something everyone's been waiting for in HD. And "50 First Dates" ain't even close.
You couldn't "backup" your DVD movies when DVD's were new either, and you couldn't backup your CD's either when they were new, and it took even longer than DVD's before you could. And DVD's are copy protected as well, it's just been broken, and was broken before most people could affordably make their own "backups." Why would it be any different this time around?
Besides, if you don't know how to take care of your discs, you should probably learn how before investing money in new technologies.
a new step in an industry war for control of home movie viewing.
To quote a tagline:
Whoever wins, we lose.
Except for the fact that Blu-ray and the PS3 aren't going to be launched at the same time, from the reports. It won't even be close.
Blu-ray now has a street date of May 23rd. PS3 now has a street date of... it doesn't. There are a lot of rumors flying around that Sony won't be making their Spring window, with Sony basically confirming that this week. It most likely won't hit the streets until Fall of this year or later, mind you, that is in Japan. They most likely won't attempt a world wide launch like Microsoft with the Xbox 360, so the US may not see the PS3 until right before x-mas or even next year.
On top of that, if anyone expects to see this supposid "fully loaded" PS3 for less than $500, they better get ready for a rude awakening!
I remember reading an article stating that the Sony PS3 will be delayed because of Blue-ray. If this player will be released in May, does that mean PS3 will still be released in America for Q4 2006?
Man, I'd be so happy if a PS3 was $300. I'm going to have to belive it'll be closer to $500, though, at least until I see it.
Friend, you've summed up my thinking on these dubious DVD replacements to a tee!
A common misconception on Slashdot is that Joe Consumer understands the issues with DRM and even more importantly, cares.
And a very simple way to make the point and make Joe Consumer care is simply to say to him, "Don't you hate having to sit through all that junk at the beginning of the DVD before you can watch the movie?" That usually gets them thinking. Then drop a hint about how things like the broadcast flag can prevent them from fast-forwarding through commercials, if they're allowed to even record a show to begin with. And Congress keeps passing more laws that give "the suits" more control over what we're allowed to do in our own living room.
That gets their attention. DRM isn't about previnting piracy, its about exerting control after the sale. You won't be able to do it even if it is legal.
the next dvd jon
Why the "next" dvd jon? I'd be willing to bet that the original dvd jon takes aim at blu-ray DRM sooner or later. (hopefully sooner) But whether or not he is the one that cracks it, like you said, it's only a matter of time.
2) DRM - nobody wants to *PAY EXTRA* for less control. If you want BluRay to succeed, give the players away for $25 - (meaning cheaper than a standalone DVD-ROM drive current cost).
Uhh, 98% of people don't give a shit about DRM. It doesn't affect them at all. They don't know that you can burn your own DVDs and remove the advertisements, button ignore "features", etc. They just pop in their $3.99 rental from Blockbuster and watch the movie and return it 30 days later because there are no more "late fees".
People are going to buy whatever they are told to buy. If DVDs are slowly phased out by Blu-Ray and the technology is superior, regardles of DRM, then they'll buy it.
My parents just bought a spiffy $3000 62" Samsung 1080i HDTV with 2 HDMI ports (one for sat TV, one for DVD 'n friends) about a month ago. From what I understand and have researched, they will not benefit of HD DVD/Blu-Ray because the TV doesn't support HDCP (no full 1080i for them) since the spec wasn't even finished when they bought it. When I got them to understand that their TV is already obsolete and the dude at Best Buy didn't clue them in on any of this....they got pissed.
So if this HDCP/DRM goes as planned...people will get pissed that their digitally enhanced Bambi 2 on their $40 Blu-Ray disc and $3000 HDTV are no better than the DVD version that plays on any TV...the fecal matter will hit the rotating oscillator.
Their new TV is now a very sore subject to talk about.
The geeks aren't the only ones that can understand this and as time goes on, I believe, the previous and current owners of HDTVs will learn this first hand when their TVs don't work they way they expected it to when they wrote a big fat check for it.
:wq
No, the reason Sony is delaying PS3 is so there will be enough music and video titles to play on the PS3 when it releases.
They also want to use early Blu-Ray adopters to test the hardware, so they can fix any bugs before they ship the PS3 which comes with Blu-Ray installed. Just picture yourself as a guinea pig if you buy one.
That said, I still fail to see any reason to do anything except wait until they actually release the PS3, which will play Blu-Ray anyway.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I though the only reason that CSS was cracked was because Xing accidently left a key unencrypted in their software. I know John did something, but the cat wasn't out of the bag until that happened. If not for the that mistake how much longer would it have taken to crack CSS?
I presume it's launching before Blu-Ray is, so that's got to be before May, right? I can't recall having seen anything.
Who gets there first is part of the battle. Not the entire battle, but it can be significant if played right.
And how soon after HD-DVD launch will something like XBox feature HD-DVD players built-in and/or as add-on options? How about packaged PCs from Dell, Gateway2000, and/or Apple? What side is Apple on, anyway? (we KNOW what side Microsoft is on, but Vista is still a long ways away).
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
When are the blue LED lasers going to become available?
Please sign petition to restore sanity to our banking system!!!
http://financialpetition.org/
You really think the PS3 is going to cost $1000? I am highly dubious of your claim.
E pluribus unum
to coincide with the entry of compatible disc players
Is the player called "The PS3"? If so, then they should be able to sell a lot of them. Otherwise, it will be a mere trickle.
Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
I think we all know the stories about how the porn industry helped make both VHS and DVD a pretty common household product. Given how Sony lost the Betamax/VHS wars I wonder if they might try a rather novel approach to winning the HD video wars. Any chance they might offer low-cost (free?) Blu-Ray production equipment to major porn producers/distributors in an attempt to create a massive HD porn foothold?
I never said that it would cost $1k, you are reading to much into it.
I only stated that it will be a long time before we see the PS3 at $300. For the record, my best guess for the PS3 is right around $500. With all that they are packing into it, I just can't see it for much less than that, I suppose maybe, MAYBE $400 if it doesn't have a harddrive, but I still don't see that. Especially with report speculating that is cost $800 to make. It is only a matter of how big of a hit Sony is willing to take.
"dvd" Jon last I heard, had taken up employment in the good ole US of A. If it's true he won't be attacking any DRM. At least not without great risk.
UNIX: 'cuz you can tattoo it on your knuckles!
Everyone is saying that there isn't 'reason' to switch formats, and that people think DVD's are 'good enough'. But, you aren't taking into account the fact that as soon as the advertising companies start telling people that Blu-ray / HD-DVD are ***WHAT THEY NEED*** they will listen.
People don't really think about things, they just listen to what they're told. The winner of this 'war' is going to be the one that pumps the most money into their ads.
Ads have done everything from getting women to shave their underarms to getting Bush into office, what makes you think the masses are suddenly going to wise up and ask 'do I really need this'?
The same reason for customers to upgrade to either DVD-A or SACD. Because it's shinier!
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
" a new step in an industry war for control of home movie viewing."
What if they started a war and nobody came?
As it stands, the major selling point Blue-Ray has is its increased resolution, which as I understand it, most people, if any, don't have the tvs to support it. If you can't tell the differnece in visual quality between the $19.99 dvd and the $39.99 blue-ray dvd, which would you rather buy?
Shameless plug for my photos on Flickr
My PS3 will be less than $200. Of course, I won't be buying it for years, but heck, there are about 900 XBox/Gamecube/PS2 titles that are still new to me.
Sincerely,
The Late Adopter
P.S. My buddy, Joe Consumer, says that DVD is good enough for him, and he doesn't plan on paying more than $500 for a TV.
Probably not too much longer after that. A few months later, it was discovered that one of the critical algorithms had a weakness that made DVD encryption crackable in what was esentially a 2^17 brute-force search space.
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
I'm sure you are right now, but when people can't do what they've always done, they will care.
Take my brother. He didn't know about DRM until a Beastie Boys album thrust it upon him.
In other words it took 3 years, plus a mistake by someone in the know, before CSS was cracked. Wanna bet the HD-DVD & Blu-Ray consortium have learnt something from this?
What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
Anyone can "stand up for what they believe", but it takes a very brave individual to change what they believe. - Loundry
Do "ANY" of us presently own a player for Blue-Ray????????????? Is there even a player currently on the market at say Best Buy etc??? How much might said bleeding edge toy cost????
It seems pure silliness to release this if NONE of the consumer world can actuallly go buy a disk and PLAY it!!!
Other than the player itself I have everything I think I need to get the full benefit (whatever that ends up being) of Blue-Ray but I'm in NO hurry to go there... None at all...
Sony are ya reading this???!!!
Sig?! Sig?! We don't need no stinking sig!!
This page has mouse-overs to compare the difference in quality between Return of the King from DVD and HD.
'the Internet is right.'
I see all these posts about, "I don't see the benefit of upgrading, other than some more capacity on the disk".
/. so I assume everyone here is aware that DVD's only output 480p, which is only marginally better than a television broadcast.
I'm not following that line of thinking... This is
The obvious reason to upgrade is to get substantially more pixels, 1080i, 720p, and I would assume 1080p at some point in the future. It seems like this would be pretty clear, I'm not sure why people keep asking why the new formats would be better.
Of course if you do not own a high-definition television of a reasonably good size then you probably don't need to upgrade, atleast not for a while until these type of discs become the norm. But if you are the owner of a standard-def television you should be aware of the resolution limitation and not have to ask why other people are interested in higher resolutions.
Those of us using DLP/Plasma/LCD television that are capable of 1080i/720p/1080p and that are of reasonably large size fully understand the need for a higher quality format to become standard. For us, the DVD looks awful in comparison to what we see on our HD television channels and our Xbox360's, or the output from our PC's. And we are clearly interested in being able to purchase a movie with twice as much data in it, to more accurately represent what you would see from film at the theater.
I will be curious to see how many of the hi-def dvds that are released are actually resampled from the film or original source as is required. Obviously sony is doing this for their initial releases, but I'm sure many movies will be converted to the new format in their 480p form.
Big ones, small ones, some as big as yer 'ead!
Give 'em a twist, a flick o' the wrist...
Dude, you're talking to the king of won't-buy-a-PS2-until-the-price-drops. I would have waited longer 'cept my dear wife thought it'd make a good xmas gift. After that ( and a previous disaster in which she bought a $300 DVD player ), I've finally taught her that just because I'm completely obsessed with technology, it doesn't follow that I want to blow all of my money on it...
As for the PS3, there's absolutely no reason for me to buy one, not for years. I'm never playing a game and thinking "these graphics should be just a little bit better, my 32" standard definition TV shows just how jaggy those lines are!". No, I think "man, there are like 80 games I've picked out that I'd like to play sometime, but I don't even have time to play the 20 I own already... and all the games I want are $20 a pop! I'm going to be playing these things for years!".
Seriously, Sony's PS2 business is likely to be supporting the PS3 business as well as most of Sony for a few more years than it already has...
For us, these HD discs aren't going to do us much good until someone gets HD display prices under control. As much as I watch TV, I'm not about to drop a thousand bucks on one.
To be clear, these aren't being made for us. They're being made for the folks who bought LaserDisc players. Folks who buy BMWs. People with money looking for a place to spend it.
...and your trendy 5.25" floppies.
My 8" IBM floppy drive still works fine. I've got to warm up the soldering iron from time to time... but it still works fine. Give me one reason why I should upgrade?
77 track of 360 RPM goodness, baby!
#SickNotWeak
You may be right... there's a WHOLE lot of hot air around the PS3 at the moment, so I don't really believe anything about launch dates. I think they'd really really like to launch before this holiday season though, after that and I think they're going to get hammered. You don't give Microsoft two holiday seasons' head start in this game.
is it a circumvention device?
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
I suppose the words "to coincide with the entry of compatible disc players" doesn't make any sense to you?
To translate: "Sony is releasing the movies on May 23rd WHEN THEY WILL ALSO BE releasing compatible disc players."
So... you're on about what, now?
bash-3.00$ uname -a
SunOS panda 5.10 Generic sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-2
In another discussion about DVDs vs $next_gen_dvds one poster nailed this on the head I think. Right now you're right, consumers have really bought into DVDs and are happy enough with them that there is no compelling reason to upgrade, which means the studios must fabricate a reason.
That reason? Well one possibility is those stupid non-skippable, non-fast-forward previews/trailers/commercials/FBI scoldings at the start of DVDs that we're seeing more and more of. The studios just need to keep adding to that crap until your average Joe starts to feel his DVDs are more like the old VHS tapes with 30+ minutes of previews, except now he can't even fast-forward! Then in swoops the movie industry with this wonderful new format to "solve" the problem. Nevermind the fact that the DRM and end-user lockdown in these discs will be many times worse than current DVDs. All they have to do is make it Just Work at the outset while simultaneously making the regular DVD experience crappier. I think we'll start to see more new release DVDs with few if any extra features, extensive pre-movie non-skippable trailers, and anything else that will make people want the new format discs which start having all the features they're looking for.
Will it work? That remains to be seen, but I wouldn't put it past MPAA companies to hobble one product to sell us another.
-- I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. It's not my fault that life sucks so much. --
Because people own HDTV's and see movies in 720p on HBO, and they can tell it looks a hell of a lot better than their current DVD's.... and they want the movies they buy for $20 each to look as good as the ones they see on HBO for $10/month.
Why is it even necessary to have a larger-format disk? I would think that if movies were simply encoded using something more advanced than MPEG-2, such as MPEG-4 or H.323, and new players came out to support this, that you could fit an HD movie on the current 8+ GB dual-layer discs. Perhaps not?
OK, but what if one or the other is late for engineering reasons?
Apple tried a similar strategy in the 90s. They expected cheap PowerPC based clones based on either the PREP standard or the CHRP standard to become available that would run many different OSes and they expected to have Pink and later Copland available at the same time.
What actually happened was that Apple couldn't deliver the OS, so they killed the PREP/CHRP standard concept and licensed System 7 to some very Mac friendly clone makers.
The strategy at the time it was announced sounded like it could make sense. You could get a cheap PowerPC clone computer and then choose what OS you wanted to run. Supposedly there was going to be Windows NT, some various flavors of Unix/Linux, and maybe some other contenders. Apple believed they could come out on top in this scenario. The problem came because they could not bring all of the technical pieces to market at the same time.
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
Wanna bet the HD-DVD & Blu-Ray consortium have learnt something from this?
Nope. (I'm on campus, so I hope people off campus can still download the PDF)
Long story short, algorithm can be implemented in chip with less then 10,000 gates. The 'master' secret key that generates all key pairs can be obtained by breaking 40 key pairs. This means, after breaking 40 key pairs, you can start generating your own signitures (or decrypt all other existing signitures).
Too bad it had to be Sony developing this technology. Anybody else and I would have been more excited, because I will not buy anything Sony anymore, ever. For that matter I'm not sure they could pay me to use one either!
doesnt anyone remember? am i alone on my boycott of SONY? please remember the rootkits, boycott sony and ps3 with me!
As an american High School student, I'd like to officially apologize for my generation.
How much were DVD players when they first came out?
Do you think it's "Glengarry, Glen Ross"? Perhaps my favorite movie, but I watch it in mono on VHS and get everything out of it. It'd be great in black and white.
Sony's right, it's the visual titles that are most likely to be the "killer app". I dunno about Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle, but still.
For DVD, the "killer title" was "The Matrix". I think BluRay will have to wait for a new must-have title to come out ot be the BluRay killer title, no rerelease will have enough punch (even LOTR).
To other poster, none of these titles were DVD launch titles. I don't see "Twister" here (which was one of only about 6 titles available when I bought my DVD player).
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Could you please cite a source for that "98% of people don't give a shit about DRM" statistic you quoted? A source other than your ass, of course.
Unless Sony gets run over by Microsoft or Nintendo in the next gen battle.
Moreover, Sony doesn't have the best track record for launching new media. Look at Betamax, Mini Disk, UMD. Sony has a history of developing great mediums which are frequently trumped by cheeper and more accessible alternative mediums.
If Sony needs to rely their own hardware solutions to deliver affordable BD players, and affordable hardware can't be delivered by 3rd parties, then this is practically Betamax all over again. Beta was effectively destroyed because it shut-out 3rd party solutions.
As much as the PS2 did for DVD, one needs to remember that most movie watchers are not gamers. Sony will need to get a variety of affordable standalone player on the shelfs and drives in computers. And they're going to need to make sure "Sony" isn't the only affordable choice people are going to have.
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
Right... Next-gen DVDs don't have an infinitely more advanced menu system, or a scratch-resistant coating. They aren't going to have longer life-spans thanks to being based off of Sony's extremely advanced MO technology.
Yeah, that'll be difficult. They'll have to have a DVD playing on a TV, and a HighDef disc playing on a second HDTV, and just hope the person notices the 6X more resolution... I guess the fact that people don't notice the difference in resolution is the reason HDTVs have been so difficult to sell...
Exactly, people paid extra for DVDs so they could have more control. NOTE: More control may mean being forced to watch FBI warning, trailers, long menu sequences, being unable to make fair-use backup copies, required to pay $30 for software to play it, and unable to play it on the operating system of your choice.
Yes, people are smart shoppers, that's why they buy the cheapest Made-in-China DVD players they can find, and go buy a new one every 1-2 years, after it fails.
Exactly... Sure, there were lots of problems with VHS, LaserDisc, VCD, etc., which forced people to upgrade, but DVD has no such flaws.
Yes, they're trying to trick you into upgrading from the wonderful unencrypted and DRM-free format, known as DVD.
Yeah, that's a real drawback for conumers there. They HATE to hear that someone cracked the encryption on the content they purchased. Like the huge public outcry after CSS was cracked...
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
*Brad Hunt Sr. VP, CTO of MPAA
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117938855?categ
You really think the PS3 will be released just as the first Blu-ray players are? I am highly dubious of your claim.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Hopefully the dust will settle on the looming format wars before they introduce these to Australia. (Usually 12 months later if we're lucky)
If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?
"Don't you hate having to sit through all that junk at the beginning of the DVD before you can watch the movie?"
How is that DRM? Seriously, that isn't a part of DRM any more than you going to a movie theater and being "forced" to watch the previews.
Many of your drawbacks are poorly conceived:
1. Every new technology is more expensive than the previous generation. DVDs were more expensive than VCDs which were more expensive than VHS. That doesn't mean that prices eventually will come down. As a matter of fact, VHS tapes used to cost upwards of $20. Now most DVDs cost less than $12. And that's not counting inflation. If the new technology takes off, it could potentially save you money.
2. Nobody cares about DRM. Seriously. If people did care, CD sales would be surging while legal digital music downloads would be stagnant or declining. And this is about the buying public, not those that pirate everything. DVDs were more restrictive than VHS (and you couldn't really copy DVDs a lot longer than you couldn't copy VHS tapes).
3. Format war uncertainties. There were uncertainties in the previous 2 "format wars". DVD vs. DivX and VHS vs. BetaMax. There are format wars today with various different connectors for sound, video, etc. There are format wars over the best codecs online. People get over it.
4. Perhaps the only legitimate complaint. DVDs solved many problems over VHS (picture quality, easy chapter access, and media longevity), and the next format should provide a little bit more. But that's solved by more content (think more extras) and higher resolution. Eventually, content will be beyond DVDs if not already and it will be cost savings to many companies to produce one bigger capacity disc rather than 4 discs. Publishers aren't looking forward to producing 2 or 3 DVDs versus one Blu-ray disc because eventually that will eat their profits significantly.
5. How is this a drawback? This sounds more like you're angry at DRM.
For me, the most important aspect in deciding whether to favour BluRay or HD-DVD is when will burners and cheap blank discs be available for them. I certainly can't afford the HDCP setup on my TV or DVD Players at any time in the near future, and the only place where I could even come close to playing these discs at their full resolution is going to be on my desktop computer, assuming I either have compliant hardware and software to let me do it or that a crack becomes available to play it on XP with a common opensource media player app.
Since to me high definition applies only to my computer monitor, and I haven't got the monitor or OS to support the new DRM, I basically couldn't care less about this announcement. What will perk my ears is when I hear the local Best Buy is selling cheap burners for one of these formats and has cheap media to use it with. (Confession: I still never have bought a DVD+R DL disc because they are something like 6-8 times the price of a single layer DVD+R disc. If blank bluray or HD discs cost as much as current DVD+R DL discs, I still would probably use cheapo DVD-+R discs ahead of them. What can I say, I'm cheap! And I am betting I am not alone.)
I'm not crazy about DRM, but as a movie buff, I'm looking forward to HD DVD content (either Sony or Toshiba). I notice the artifacts in existing DVDs, and think standard DVD resolution is a waste of an HD TV. (I only watch movies on my 34" Widescreen TV, I don't even get cable.)
I realize I'm not the typical customer (I started collecting movies with LaserDisc back in 1995). But if the format wars get settled and either format takes off, I'll go for it. I figure that's at least one or two years away, but that's cool, I need time to save up for my new HD TV, which I'll buy when I upgrade to HD DVD.
In a real emergency, we would have all fled in terror, and you would not have been notified.
NTSC is an analog system. It has a number of lines (525), but there is no spec for the number of pixels across a line. In fact, NTSC doesn't even have pixels.
Additionally, note that DVDs are interlaced, not progressive. Your DVD player converts it from interlaced to progressive by gathering frames. So you end up with 24 progressive frames per second instead of 60 interlaces fields per second. But either way, the DVD never had double the temporal resolution versus TV on it, and it certainly wasn't reproduced (after conversion) with that temporal resolution.
DVDs can use their full resolution in 16:9, although in a stupid way. Horizontal resolution doesn't go up at all, even though the TV image is much wider than a 4:3 image.
ATSC does specify resolution, but it doesn't specify 720x480. All pixels in all ATSC modes are square, and the pixels on a DVD (720x480) are not.
On my HDTVs, DVDs look awful compared to HD. There's simply no comparison. I buy only about 4 DVDs a year now, I watch most of my movies off HBOHD and SHOHD.
Scaling doesn't excite me, you can make up all the fake info you want with your scaler, but you cannot create actual additional resolution. The information required to do so simply was never recorded on the DVD to start with, so no amount of technology can bring it back.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Re; minidisc player availability
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minidisc
" and this time licensed the MD technology to other manufacturers, with JVC, Sharp, Pioneer, Panasonic and others all producing their own MD systems.
I own a teac md player myself....
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
actually wasnt there an article a few weeks back stating the oposite: that he intends to crack blu-ray drm as soon as possible?
watch "the money masters" on google video
In a separate press release today DVD John stated that he expects to release a crack for the encryption on 5/25/06.
Am I the only one who can't wait until those super high quality movies hit the P2P networks. What is the over/under on how long it is going to take to crack the DRM? 2 weeks? 3 weeks? I would say a month tops.
No doubt. This is the number one problem with both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Their main advantage is the higher HD resolution.... except that you can't use it on most of the HDTVs out there. Ironically, most of those HDTVs happen to be those owned by the techno-geeks (like most /.'ers) who would otherwise be all over this new HD format stuff if the technology wasn't so blatantly crippled.
Furthermore, most new HDMI equipped TVs have only 1 or 2 digital inputs. What am I supposed to do with my 8:1 Component Video Switch? So not only would I have to replace my perfectly good 1080i HD CRT to use this silly format, but I would have to replace a perfectly good component video switch as well. Not to mention that in some places, you can easily wire your house with mini-Component coax cables, although I've yet to see HDMI home video distribution equipment (and with the DRM, do you think HDMI is ever going to be available for home video distribution?!)
The minority of us who care about the technical advantages of these formats are the ones who are not going to be able to use them. Please vote with your wallet and let these companies know that we want a HD format that works with ALL HDTVs.
No, can't read your link from outside...
/. post claiming it so, I can't find a single reference to back up the assertion that the HD-DVD decryption algorithm was designed to fit in a 10,000 gate chip. Nor can I find any other reference to indicate that it's just a matter of cracking "40 key pairs" to determine the master key.
However, apart from one single other
What I can find is evidence that HDCP was designed to fit inside a 10,000 gate chip, and the master key can be determined after cracking 40 key pairs. But that's HDCP - a totally different animal to the SPDC/AACS security specified for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.
I also note that the original reference to cracking HDCP - from where the "40 key pairs" and "10,000 gates" statements come - was published in 2001. AFAIK nobody has actually cracked it yet, 4 1/2 years on...
What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
Are you sure? Sometimes they support HDCP across the HDMI with out advertisnig the fact.
All fnord hail discordia!
1) larger capacity - whether this mean more content or higher resolution.
Awesome, because Superbit looks better than regular already! I want my higher resolution.
In response to your opposition:
1) DVD Resolutions SUCKS! It's better than regular TV but not HD Cable TV. I'm sorry. DVDs SUCK! Any geek who has bought a DVD or a DVD player and says BluRay/HD is pointless is NOT A GEEK. Sorry, why upgrade to 3.2Ghz when your 66mhz 486 is just fine? Because 66mhz SUCKS, and because DVD SUCKS.
2) What control am I losing? Even if I copy a DVD it's less quality than before, so I'll buy it again if I lose the disc or the dog pees on it. I hate that, but it's what I've got to do. Suck it up, welcome to reality, it's called REAL LIFE. What other control do I lose? The ability to pirate it? There's always a way around that, even with whatever DRM they wanna pretend works.
3) Blu-Ray is the winner, with expected 8 layers and far higher capacities, support from sony. "Uncertanties" is like, if the light is red, does it mean go or stop?
4) Again, we're back to #1. DVDs SUCK. They have LOW QUALITY. SuperBit is a step in the right direction. And hell, having a season of family guy on a single disc sounds great too.
5) Well, even YOU block out your #2 argument.
If it weren't for the stringent controls on content, there are several ways you could bypass the stuff you don't want to watch.
For example, you could copy just the movie to your own disc, then watch it.
Or you could download a player program to run on your computer to play it and allow you to skip the parts you don't want (or, in fact, to automatically skip ANY part that is marked as unskippable).
Or you could buy or modify a player that doesn't prevent you from skipping - with no protection on the content, it would be difficult to prevent anyone from making a player that can do whatever it wants. If there were no DMCA, it would be legal to modify your player to work the way you want it to.
If the HDMI port doesn't support the version of HDCP that the player requires, it won't send a digital signal at all, they'll be forced to use the degraded analog signal.
It took 3 years for a known crack to be found. Given the realities of code tracing, any serious attempt to figure out the algorithm and keys would have taken a fairly short amount of time, given ANY software implementation; thus, I postulate that it probably was cracked before DVDJon became newsworthy, you just never heard about it.
They've gotten smarter with HDCP - they've required hardened hardware implementations only - which means it could take a fair bit of effort to crack, and that will be more reason for the large-scale commercial copyright-infringing operation to keep it a secret once they've done so.
You haven't heard of a crack of HDCP yet because there's no real need for it yet, and anyone smart enough to crack it is probably smart enough to keep it quiet until the industry has locked itself into using it.
BD has lots of capacity. They bring MPEG-4 codecs too.
50GB disc.
Hmm. You can fit a full season of TV series on single disc.
Large boxed set->single Bluray disc.
24x45min=16hours. Then its 3GB per hour, which is somewhat more than with DVD.
With better codecs your image quality would be better than DVD with that.
For high definition there might be need to split it for two discs. But still its ONE potential way of using the additional space.
Another is removing scene labeled "please insert disc 2" from some movies.
Boxed set->single disc.
Sure there is quality improvement, but I think bigger improvement is getting rid of that stop that happens in some DVD titles.
Emacs is good operating system, but it has one flaw: Its text editor could be better.
You said entry-level Blu-Ray players would cost $1000. The PS3 is going to be released this year at a whole lot less than that. Given the PS3's likely volume, I suspect Blu-Ray will hit "mass market" prices much faster than HD DVD and generally become the cheaper option, not the more expensive one. Thus, unless you think the PS3 is going to cost $1000, you're completely off-base.
E pluribus unum
Can you not get it through your head that I never said any where that the PS3 would cost $1,000? I am not sure why you are hell bent on this notion that I did.
As long as I can go to my local grocery store and rent a 99 cent first run movie and play it on my $40 player I will use the technology. Otherwise, I will stop watching movies unless the come to regular TV.
Athiesm is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
But that's HDCP - a totally different animal to the SPDC/AACS security specified for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.
That's what I was talking about. It's the weak link. SPDC/AACS is in between the disk and player, HDCP is inbetween the player and the TV. When attacking a crypto system, always go for the weak link. I know it doesn't give the actual content, but it does give you a direct look at the stream.
Exactly. The DMCA is the only thing that allows them to restrict what would otherwise be perfectly legal.
Why? It's technologically superior and manufacture costs will be the same once the infastructure is established and the components/discs are in mass production.
Both are entangled with drm. Both are putting restrictions on analog ports. While hd-dvd allows you to copy, there is no guarantee they will allow you to copy at full quality or free of charge.
I personally plan on copying myself and at full quality, screw the drm it will be broken.
Hmmm... Pie...
I'm just going to download my movies in HD quality from actual movie "rental" sites. So, no thanks.
I may be old fashioned, but once I have my new Media Center PC in my hands, I'm going to record Over-The-Air broadcasts of HDTV, and I'm going to start downloading my movie "rentals". There are several sites (all legal) out there to do that. Some with DVD-quality and some with HD-quality.
My mind may change in the future, but I am just not worked up over Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. DVD was a major improvement over VHS in picture quality but a PITA for making your own. Blue-Ray and HD-DVD is just gilding the lilly as far as I'm concerned. I'm not in any hurry to support it.
To me this new format is when Star Trek came out with DS9, then Voyager, then (gak!) Enterprise. "Just one more" really starts to spread things a bit thin.
You're right on both counts - it's the weak link, and it doesn't give you the actual content.
;-):
For the benefit of anyone still watching this thread, cracking HDCP ain't like ripping DVDs - once you break HDCP the data stream is basically digitised uncompressed RGB, not the MPEG-encoded stream from the disc. You want to store that on disc? Recompress it again with your chosen codec.
From beginning to end, the path from disk to display looks roughly like this (yes, I know it's not strictly correct, it's simplified
Disc->SPDC/AACS->decompression->HDCP encoder->HDCP decoder->display
To rip from that after the HDCP decoding step is not so different to copying AAC-encoded audio to MP3 - you're still recompressing lossy-compressed data into a different lossy compression scheme. Except, in this case, it'll have to be done in real-time - 2 hours to capture that 2 hour movie*, plus X hours to recompress.
I guess my point is that people are expecting HD-DVD & Blu-Ray to be broken quickly, and the whole process to be comparable to using DVDDecrypter &/or DVDShrink. And that won't happen until SPDC/AACS is broken (most likely by hacked drive firmware), not HDCP.
(* uncompressed too, remember. So you'd better have a HUGE disc! Assuming 30G for the movie on HD-DVD, and 10:1 MPEG-4 compression, count on having a 300G HD dedicated for a single movie...)
What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?