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Refurbishing PCs For Charity?
Used PC Guy asks: "I'm trying to run a program to recycle PCs for charity to give to underprivileged kids. Trouble is, these kids have never seen a PC. What should I teach the kids if they're about 14-21? Should I teach Windows, Linux or both? What hardware should I be requesting, and what's the best way to test the influx of hardware that's coming in quickly, efficiently and reliably to make sure won't need servicing within another 6 months?"
Depending on the availability of software, I'd stick with Windows. As much as we'd like to think Linux is going to get big as a desktop OS , it isn't definate, and will probably be a long way down the road, especially in the US. Although if for some reason you don't have the copies of windows that came with these PCs (which is likely the case), and windows-like Linux distro would probably be best. At least that's my 2 cents (as a big Linux/UNIX user).
In undeveloped countries, the consumer controls the market. In capitalist America, the market controls you.
Seriously--no troll intended--but software can be donated, even commercial software. What's expensive is support.
If any donated Pentium 3 machines come in with Win 98 and at least 6 gigabytes of RAM, how about dual booting them with Windows 98 using 2 gigs and Unbuntu on the remainder. And if they're older machines, keep in mind Ubuntu Lite (haven't tried the lite version yet myself but plan to in the next few days).
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallingUbuntuLite
http://www.ubuntulite.org/
Use some sort of software that erases everything every time the computer reboots - like deepfreeze. Then instruct the users to save everything to a seperate partition. That way, you won't have to do as much security support work. If they really haven't used a computer before, they won't know what they're missing. This can increase the number of computers you can support a lot.
Simon's Rock College
The operating system doesn't matter that much. Teach them how to use the internet in a responsible way, avoinding obviously dangerous websites, how to write e-mails in a matter people will appreciate, etc.
Learn them how to use the mostly used things: word processor (a typing course would help as well), spreadsheet, even the stupid slideshow creation :) Any office suite will do, it's not that much of a difference when they got the main points.
Learn them how to install software! How to deal with all the popups you get when installing this, it really is something you should get a hang of, and you'll need it often later on.
Learn them to use html, make a website, get to understand the stuff that's behind it.
And the coolest would be: learn them to program a bit! I played with LOGO when I was a kid, it really helped me later on.
molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
While linux geeks (me) would find it easier to support bunch of linux boxes, finding supporters of Windows software will be easier, so in the remaining life of the hardware, more supporters than just yourself will be needed, and there are more people who can support Windows.
On the flip side, someone will have to deal with licensing issues, and since linux runs on older hardware, and most licenses for it don't require as much scrutiny to figure out, there is some benefit. (Somewhere on MS's site it has a page about if you can receive donated Windows licenses and terms, but I'm too lazy to look for it now.)
Overall, talk to those looking to receive the donations about what they're going to use them for (e-mail, browsing, educational games, etc.) and who they are going to need to get to support them (maybe a LUG can adopt-a-support program, or they can actually hire someone).
I am, and always will be, an idiot. Karma: Coma (mostly effected by
It's easier when you're showing strength in numbers, you know. One man outfits just don't have the same credibility.
I guess if these people never used a PC before, they shouldn't have a bug learning curve to adapt to Linux since they don't have a lot of pre-concived ideas of how things should work.
It wouldn't be a bad idea to get them working with Linux for much better performance on old hardware with a user-friendly distro like Ubuntu or Linspire. You would also be helping to get Linux on to the mainstream public, which I believe the $100 Laptop program from MIT will do.
I know Microsoft has this strange non-transferable software license thing, which would make refitting them with Windows a bit of a hassle. I guess if you've got the generosity of enough corporations (or if you want to buy licenses) Windows would be ok. Otherwise, go *nix-like for all your software needs.
:)
If nothing else, any older pc's you get will run a bit better with a stripped down WM.
As for teaching, this will depend on how you do the machines to begin with. If you can get Windows and MS Office on them, then hey, go for it! Otherwise, you may be using Gnome, OO.org, and whatever Edubuntu supplies. If it's 14-21 then you'll probably want to teach a productivity suite more than tuxtype and tuxpaint.
Then there's the standard suggestion of partnering with an org that already has that type of thing set up...or maybe spin off an already existing charity.
Yes, this was annoying with Windows... but it scares me to think about how often I would have been called if I would have given them a Linux machine.
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I spent about 2 years trying to teach computer skills to kids and adults in a developing nation, and I learned a few things about this kind of work.
If licensing is available (or doesn't concern you), you may as well start by teaching Windows, at least for basic mouse and keyboarding skills. You'll probably have inconsistant hardware in your systems, but as much as I hate to admit it, Windows makes it easier to present a consistant interface.
Once the kids learn a little about computer basics, you can start teaching them some more advanced skills. This is where you can turn your problems on their side... You'll probably quickly accumulate piles of unusable components, but these can be valuable teaching materials, since you can use them to show the kids what's inside the computer. As they learn more, you can get the kids to help you test, assemble, and repair more systems.
If you can teach the kids to do your work (requesting donations, testing, building, repairing, and teaching), then your project will be successful and sustainable.
I wasn't able to teach all the students how to build computers (we didn't have enough 'junk' components to try that), but I did get them to go from no computer experience to making simple webpages (using only notepad) and useful spreadsheets.
A few more tips:
1) Observe what the kids do and adjust what you teach accordingly, especially to avoid time sinks (Word, with all its clipart, wordart, and fonts proved to be a big waste of time).
2) Try to find innovative ways to teach file management. This is not intuitively obvious to most kids, but it is important, and can get to be a problem when they start producing hundreds of documents
3) Internet / WWW are probably more trouble than they're worth.
4) Ban floppy disks
5) If you don't have a LAN, a USB Flash drive and some simple scripts can be good for quickly copying materials to each machine.
Yes, Windows is more popular. Linux will give the kids a harder time, and they will be disappointed that they can't run all the software that they expected. However, it will be a learning experience for them. Some families will take it off right away and replace it with Windows, but others will stick with linux. Those kids might get exposed to software that will inspire them to learn more about computers and study them later in life. It's very difficult to learn about computers when you learn Windows. I know this because I was raised with Windows and came away from it with almost nothing.
Most people just use Windows and don't learn much of anything. Also, do you really want to pay for Windows licenses?
I'd say stick with Windows XP, as Windows is still the most prevelant OS and will be the most useful, generally, in terms of getting a job or even extending education farther later. You can use Open Office to teach the basics of Word Processing, Internet Explorer for teaching Web usage, and Windows is a fine platform for learning a little basic networking even. Even showing someone how to Add and Remove Programs in Windows is useful knowledge down the road as well, as I've bumped into Phd's that can't figure that out, for some reason.
While using a Linux variant might be free, you may not have the choice for Windows dependant on your budget, but I'd recommend it. You want to teach the masses how to use the most common operating system they'll more than likely come in contact with, and need to know how to use.
My OS recommendation would only change if the costs were prohibitive to your budget. You can secure a legal copy of XP Home for $50 or so these days, and certainly even cheaper if buying in bulk as a non-profit entity. I'd recommend looking farther into the cost situation before writing it off though.
In terms of hardware, shoot for between the 600mhz and up, with at least 256MB RAM and at least a 10GB hard drive. I've got several 550mhz-800mhz servers that run Windows XP nicely, and that age tech is cheap if not free, and people are regularly dumping their old systems for Dell's new $399 Intel-Celeron crap deal with a flatpanel monitor, ooooo. One of my servers I swiped from the local dump, perfectly good 550mhz PII system with 256MB SDRAM. It won't run games, but then again, it doesn't need to, it just needs to share half a terabyte of storage on the network, and so it does quite nicely for the last 6 months.
...if you want to help economically disadvantaged people--be they in Appalachia, Detroit, central Africa, or the West Bank--is to give them the tools they need to integrate into wider society.
With that in mind, and assuming you're targeting first two of the above: I'd give them Windows. Make sure they know how to word process in Wordpad, and, crucially, how to use email and IM. The rest will come on its own. Kids are naturally curious, and don't usually need much encouragement to explore the internet and start creating profiles on MySpace or what have you. Indulge them.
(Incidentally, that's also why a $100 cellphone would be a much better use of resources than MIT's $100 laptop, but I digress.)
These kids have never seen a computer, then it's best to get them familiar with what 90% of the planet uses, regardless of your own viewpoint. That way you're giving them a headstart on the way to getting useable computer knowledge that will enable them to at least get a job using a PC with Windows and Word on it...
Linux and Macs have to be decision that's made on a personal level, because they are in the minority. If one of these kids turns round and says to you "you taught us in Linux, why the hell didn't you teach us to use the most common OS - Windows?", you're screwed. That'll just look like you forcing your views on them, and that never goes down well with anyone, ever.
That might sound harsh, but I guarantee that very few of us are using Linux because it was the first OS we landed on. Most probably used Windows and had to look for something better - look at it from that angle, and use that as a basis. The high fliers will instantly want mroe than you give them.
What if not everyone wants to learn about computers? What about the kids who just want to write--start a blog, say--or fire up a paint program and teach themselves graphic design?
"Sure, kid, GIMP sucks for painting, but at least you'll learn about computers!"
That's a formula for turning proto-Rothkos into Charles Mansons.
If you have the money, why spend it on software? Spend the money on good broadband connection and networking the computers. If you have all that, spend it on books that you can keep in the place and possibly loan out so they can read some thing on their own.
My suggestion would be to use Ubuntu. And when you show them software, show them cross-platform solutions. Firefox/Opera, Thunderbird or some webmail, Gaim, Gimp, OpenOffice.org2.
I mean, that's the crux of learning computers. Typing documents and emails. Sending IMs to stay connected. Looking up stuff online for learning, entertainment and procrastination.
My brother has a scanner and he lost the drivers for it. It was a pain to find them online. For me, with Ubuntu, it worked without any setting up. I was surprised. If you're getting hardware that you might not have the driver CD for, Linux really is much better at support (unless you can hunt down the drivers online).
But the main thing is, people are capable of learning if you have faith in them and put in effort and create a good atmosphere. If you dumb everything down too much, then they'll learn less. But if you expect more, they'll surpise you. Don't be afraid to teach them about the hardware a little bit and the network. They might not fully grasp everything, but they'll be a little better off. And you'll be able to spot the smarter ones who'll be more motivated to learn.
In times like these, it is helpful to remember that there have always been times like these. - Paul Harvey
These are going to be underpowered PCs, potentially used for years.
This means a few things:
0. Are they powerful enough to run XP / 2K?
If not, then how well do you think 98 will fare over time (when is it EOL'd?)
1. What are the people going to use them for? Web-surfing, e-mail, IM, office, etc.
2. As the parent brought up, owning the software is going to be a requirement. That might turn out to be the most expensive aspect of the project.
3. Is the Original Poster going to be available (via email, in person, etc.) for the next year? If so, and they have the time to do any additional modifications, then Linux isn't that bad of an option. How many people are going to screw up their computers (through whatever means) if Linux xor Windows is installed?
Personally, I give a LiveCD and email scripts (to a webmail account with space) to people after servicing their computers. On top of that I tell them exactly how to execute the main one (that executes the rest). So even in a worse case scenario where they FUBAR their OS, they'll still be able to do the basics. This is something I recommend to the original poster no matter what.
Am I open minded towards open source, or closed minded towards closed source?
I'm not really sure if telling people ANYTHING about the OS is really worth it. Most non-geek people don't care about the OS and only really care about the apps. If the OS breaks, they'll get one of us geeks to fix it.
If people want to "Surf the Internet", show them multiple browsers (Firefox, Opera, IE) and how to do the same thing in each one.
If people want to "write a letter to my cousin", show them multiple text editors (WordPad, Abiword, etc)
The key is to show people that there is more than one way to accomplish something so that they don't get into the mindset where they cannot function if they happen to come across a non-Microsoft-OS computer.
It may take them a little while to get used to Safari or OpenOffice, but once they know that the same basic concepts exist in multiple applications they are much better off than knowing one application. (eg: the address bar, the reload button, how to change a font size or bold it)
Karma: Excellent. 15 moderator points expire sometime.
Somewhere on MS's site it has a page about if you can receive donated Windows licenses and terms
Yeah, sure, and then they make you jump thru hoops by having the original bill of sale when the SPA comes calling. And they will, bet the farm on it as you are a VERY high profile target.
Put something like Ubuntu-5.10 on them. These people may not be already windows indoctrinated to the point that they can't learn how to run firefox in 5 minutes, and get their email setup and running in 15, most of which is negotiating a connection to the net from their ISP of choice. Make sure iptables, portsentry and tcpwrappers are installed and setup for outgoing requests establishing the path, and trash ANYTHING that comes in un-invited. And setup the update tool to do it every night, or if its not on then, makes sure anacron knows about it by makeing sure its running in the startup.
That combination is pretty bullet proof, I've had 3 attacks get as far as the log before they were turned off absolutely in 3 years on a dsl circuit. And 2 of those came from known addresses as they were from compromised DNS servers at my ISP, verizon. They're windows lovers, obviously.
You may have a few more questions to field early in the game, but in the end you will have made a new generation of computer savvy people who are NOT slaves to the M$ machine in Redmond. And that is of course a very desirable thing at the end of the day, you have shown that the M$ way is NOT the only way, and the linux way is far more secure.
Handle the root access by making them prove enough knowledge to be able to handle it before you give it out. That will save a lot of phone calls right there.
--
Cheers, gene
When I was in high school about 7 years ago, we refurbished PC's in conjunction with the local power company, who had unwanted machines and wanted a tax write off and some positive PR. They would send the pc's to us, and we would clean them out (some of them were from coal mines), troubleshoot any hardware problems, rebuild as needed, and installed freedos - today I would reccomend kbuntu or another fairly mainstream distro. The point is that the experience provides you with a lot of free labor, the kids with a learning experience (and maybe a free computer), charities or disadvantaged kids with computers, and the donating companies with a tax write off and some great PR. That's called a Win Win Win Win - It doesn't get much better than that.
Really I think you're going to have two problems. The first is simply getting machines with ancient (windows 95/98/ME) operating systems on them. Getting legal modern Windows operating systems is either going to be expensive, or the hardware you have simply won't run it. (Driver issues, low memory, etc). Honestly I'd really avoid going down the route of using any Windows OS before Windows 2000. 95/98/ME are really dinosaurs these days, and no one should be giving away machines with them on it.
So, while other people are telling you to run Windows because it's standard and it's what kids will encounter, I'm going to tell you to run Linux because it's cheap, will support most of the hardware, has drivers built in that will auto-detect, etc. Ultimately you really want to only be supporting one operating system. The best OS for that job is going to be Linux. It's really no fun trying to hunt down what video card each of the 10 different machines you have sitting around.
Honestly for kids 14-21 the OS doesn't really matter for what they should be using the machine for. I assume that's schoolwork, research, etc. You might get some complaints that game X or special software package Y doesn't run on the computer, but that sounds pretty minor. They'll be able to figure out Windows computers once they've used linux, so I don't see many problems of converting if that ever became an issue. Computers are ultimately a tool, and unless you're going to be a tool-maker or tool-supporter, the choice of the tool doesn't really matter. To make an analogy just get them familiar with using hammers, screwdrivers, and saws and don't worry about which brand it is.
The second problem is getting broken hardware. There's a few things that can help you here. I'd first look at memtest86 to test the memory. Let it run for a few hours and see if there's errors. Secondly I'd run some CPU thrashing tests. Many people seem to like Prime95 from mersenne.org, and run the torture test. Other programs like the distributed.net client will also stress the CPU. Finally I'd get familiar with smartctl on linux. This program will access the SMART monitoring that's built into hard drives made in the last 5 or 6 years. From this you can tell if the HD is junk, or soon to be junk.
You're going to get a lot of Junk. And by junk I mean computers with 64 megs of ram and a 233 megahertz processor. It's hard to tell you where the line exists, since I don't know what kids are going to do with these computers. Cannabalize components, but don't be afraid to just throw stuff out, or maybe turn these components into a class where kids get to "build their own computer".
AccountKiller
The thing is, do you want to teach them about computers, or about useful things they can do with computers. If you want to teach them about computers, then Linux for teh win. But if you want to teach them about useful things they can do like use the web, write documents, touch up photos, etc, then Windows/Mac is a better option.
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Has it come to this? I like Linux and use Linux, too. Should I rend my hair shirt, flog myself bloody, roll in mud and parade the streets on my knees to show everyone my shame? "Whatever you do, people, do not do what I do! I am a bad example!"
Guy said it's for kids who aren't familiar with computers at all. In every case I've seen kids absorb Linux like a sponge, learn to equate later exposure to Windows and Macs with it. They just take it as a given and keep learning. Why? Because they haven't had 20 years of brainlock in Windows-Only-World.
My daughter has no trouble at all using Linux at home and Windows at school and at the library. The only way it's affected her as far as the outside world is concerned is that she giggles and points when Windows crashes (because they're not supposed to do that) and she shakes her head in disgust when she sees that her only games are freecell/hearts/solitaire/minesweeper. Oh, wait, lemme second-guess the flame-fighters on this one: I'm abusing my children by showing them Linux, right?
Despite what a lot of other posters have mentioned, I'd have to say that Linux would be the best choice. As a distribution maintainer myself, I get a lot of e-mails from users – and a lot of it isn't just the usual support stuff, a good deal of the mail I get is from ordinary people who decided to switch to Linux (and my distro was the first one).
I may be a bit biased on this, but I'd have to say the only real problem is typically the installation. After that, it's a snap. If the machines have enough horsepower – for my own distro, a Pentium-233 with 96MB can handle KDE, Firefox, and OpenOffice.org rather nicely – I'd say stick on KDE, create a default user account and make it auto-login, assign a strong root password – but tell them what it is! – and maybe set up some shortcuts on the desktop to any apps they may use. Problem solved!
I'd have to say that everyone in my family seems to like my distro too. Even my parents. Which may sound sort of stupid and obvious, but not really – I had to fight tooth and nail to get them to try Linux out! They just did not want to give up Windows, at all! But as soon as they saw it, they were hooked too...
But one quick suggestion – if you have to teach them on Windows, please, do yourself (and them) a favor and DON'T USE INTERNET EXPLORER. I'm obviously no expert on psychology, but I've noticed that most people, once they find something they like, generally don't want to switch off to something better unless it's forced upon them. So if you get them used to using an insecure, non-standard browser such as Explorer, it will likely serve you right when you can't convince them to try Firefox because of the unpatched security vulnerability du jour in IE.
Creative misinterpretation is your friend.
Frankly, the availability and compatibility with most off the shelf hardware and software is squarely in the Windows camp and is a compelling reason to go that way. That is, unless all the user will do is email, office work and web browsing, they will need help with add-ons. Even simple scanner and printer compatibility might be an issue, finding Linux compatibility information is quite often a pain because it's rarely something that is put on the box. It is going to be a lot tougher to find tech support for Linux as well.
While there clearly are issues with Windows, I don't think Windows is anywhere nearly as bad as the Linux or Mac crowds claim. I haven't seen it crash for reasons other than faulty hardware in a long, long time. I don't reboot Windows for other than update reasons, though I generally do shut computers off every night because to leave something on while not being used is a waste of electricity.
Those kids won't ever use the machine unless there's internet... fact is for most people the PC is nothing but an internet appliance, not that it's bad... lot of info on the internet.
also... you will be surprised to find that most of these kids have probably used a computer at the library or school.. so don't assume they know nothing about them...
Something you might consider doing is donating a few hours a week to go and teach them how to build the PC themselves, with donated parts... give a man fish, you know the rest... and they'll have a lot more fun and a lot more respect for the machines when they've put them together themselves.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
Remember that charities and non-profit groups have the same needs as any other business.
Consequently don't waste their time trying to give them ancient or underpowered computers, and don't consider anything but Windows.
Most charities that accept donations of computer equipment are accustomed to saying "no" to well meaning people that try to unload stuff that would be better used as boat anchors.
Ten years ago it made sense for groups to source used PCs, and many groups offered that kind of service. When new PCs cost thousands of dollars you could dramatically lower your costs. These days a new system can be had for under $500, so a used system with lower specs is less attractive.
When you consider the increased likelihood of component failure, and the irritations associated with older hardware's inability to run current software, it often doesn't make sense to accept second hand systems.
I'm not sure where you're finding these kids that have "never seen a PC". I've worked with teenagers in inner cities, and in Appalachia specifically, and PCs are pretty much ubiquitous in the US. Every library and school has PCs, and kids these days are more than comfortable with technology.
Is it possible that you're assuming a condition that doesn't exist? Have you talked to the target group to assess what they can use?
Three Squirrels
Show them that instead of Firefox, they have IE, or they can download Firefox for Windows. Show them they have Paintbrush instead of Gimp, but they can download Gimp for Windows or buy Photoshop. Show them they have Outlook instead of Thunderbird, but etc... Show them they have Notepad or Word instead of the 50-some editors in Linux. Show them they have freecell-hearts-minesweeper-solitaire instead of the 50-some games on Linux. Be sure to point out that they can no longer switch to alternate virtual desktops, have their pick of ten different window managers, or have all the software they want for it free. Teach them the new keyboard combination "Ctrl-Alt-Del", and remind them that they have to pay attention to virus reports now, because they apply to them.
Of course with my kids, nobody did this with them. They just saw and learned Linux at home, saw and learned Windows at school, and took it to be the natural order of things. Young minds are open; let's not spoil it. They'll be old and mean and dumb just like we grownups soon enough.
It is unfortunate that your apparent desire to help those less fortunate is masked by your zealotry.
her only games are freecell/hearts/solitaire/minesweeper
...because that's really an edge Linux has over Windows. Games. Yeah. How long will it take until she wants to play a game that's Windows-only? Because there aren't really that many out there for Linux.
Quality, performance, value; you get only two, and you don't always get to pick.
Well I would think basic computer skills would be the first thing, items such as:
- Introduction to computers, what is it, how does it work (at a very high level), what can they do for you and what they can't.
- Computer safety and security, protecting yourself from online predators, phishing, virus, spyware etc.
- Browsing the web, how to do it and some useful resources. What sort of things do the kids do and might look for. Local rec center hours, announcements and programs. Local sports teams information.
- Email, do they have frieds/relatives to keep in touch with.
- Basic workprocessing, how to write a resume etc.
6) ...
7) Profit!
Put a few games on the computer. Let them see the game being played at least once.
Then let THEM learn the ins and outs of the computer, learn to install OSes and fixup games. Do NOT underestimate the power of games teaching kids how to fix the computer. Most people improve their typing by yakking on MSN messenger (and previously IRC). They dont open the typing tutorial book an hour each day. Similarly many slashdot readers started out trying to just fix the computer to play the damn games. No need to goto college to reinstall windows.
Once theyve seen the games, one kid will put enough effort to fix the machine up to play games. Other kids will see him and follow suit. Underprivileged frequently also means they have enough time on their hands (assuming theyre not WORKING too). Make the hardware and software available, give them the incentive and let THEM to the work. They'll thank you for it.
Think of it this way, its like giving a highschool kid a broken Mustang. He'll turn into a mechanic trying to fix it since he has an incentive to own a sportcar for free... as a side effect, you're producing a mechanic there.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
Anyway, I (not a native speaker) met a lot of US native speaking students online who had a lot more problems with writing correctly than I do. Furthermore I'm using 3 different languages simultaneously in my daily life, so I apologize for messing up the expressions and sentence constructions from these languages every now and then.
molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
If this computer is going on the internet, do not install windows on it. Yes, windows can go safely on the internet behind a firewall and with all the updates, but these computers will not have much tech support. It's much easier to install ubuntu or mepis. If the computer doesn't have the power for those, install Damn Small Linux. www.distrowatch.com has a nice listing of linux distributions.
Have a few burned copies of the install CDs, and a file with a few printed out copies on how to install the linux distribution onto each computer.
Teach them not to write things like "learn them" if they're trying to be taken seriously...
Haha, relax, I was just poking fun. I guess there's a use for emoticons after all.
I applaud your effort, and wish you all the best. Now, what hardware should you be requesting? Take the best you can get, and set a cut-off for what you won't take.
I've seen people try to unload a PS/2 they found in storage. Figure you should to be looking at upper P-II's, and P-III's, and some earlier Athlons. Try for the range between 500-1000MHz. Anything before then is likely to have even more issues with lifespan than it's worth. Ideally, you want at least 256MB of RAM, and 6-10GB hard drives, more is better
For testing, I like a utility called #1-TuffTest , which runs a complete diagnostic set on the system, runs off a floppy, and is pretty cheap to boot. While it won't do everything, it's a good, solid checker after seeing if the thing turns on to begin with. :-)
Even the ones that "fail" are still useful for spare parts. Hard drive gone? Well, the RAM is probably still good, and can be used to upgrade another computer, and power supplies are always useful.
For an operating system, I say "whatever". Seriously. Despite all the slams, Windows 98SE wasn't that bad, and can run most of the stuff out there, Windows XP is an option. Ubuntu is a good Linux distro. You may even want a mix, or try dual-boot. For software, I prefer FireFox for web browsing, Thunderbird for e-mail, AbiWord for wordprocessing. Yes, Open Office is an option as well. If you go with Windows, you'll get IE anyways.
As to what to teach them, teach them the basics. Teach them how a computer works- use the broken ones for teaching tools, just the general outline. They don't need to know the details of FPU's, on-die cache, etc. etc. Just what a CPU is, and what it does. What a modem does. What RAM is and what it does. What a hard drive does, what a modem does. Later on, they can move into the more detailed stuff if they want to. Teach them how to navigate the UI and call up programs, and get them to use it - along with that, how to learn further. Teach them how to set up the computer - the basics, like how to hook up the monitor, the keyboard, mouse, printer, and modem. Anyone who's interested can move further into helping test and refurbish the computers, but that gets you through the basics that they'll need.
She's *seen* games that are Windows-only. In school. They cost money. To her, they're no different. Drop in on the average Windows machine and you'll see only a few games installed; granted, each are blockbuster titles, but only a few nonetheless; they cost money and suck up hardware space and resources. Linux, you can have all the free games you want. And Linux is catching up...just because it has a long way to go, doesn't mean it will never get there. Besides, she has the traditional gaming console that you hook up to the TV, anyway.
Is your first language french ? Mine is and "learn them" exists in french. In fact, I'm so tired right now I didn't even notice when I first read your post.
Slashdot anagrams to "Sad Sloth"
With the younger ones any working computer will be useful - IMO the more variety they're exposed to, the better. Teach them how to think for themselves, how to explore a system, see the similarities and understand the differences, and most importantly how to find information for themselves!
Thanks anyway, I really didn't see where the error was, I'll keep it in mind for next time, ok!
P.S. In Dutch it's the same, for those wondering where the error came from.
molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
It's the same way in English too, it's just not common use. American Heritage Dictionary: Learn v. 6. Obsolete. To give information to.
But your daughter also has a parent knowledgable about Linux that can help her out when something new comes along. While these kids could certainly be taught to use Linux, I don't think any such charity wants to get dragged into "Tech Support" when no one ELSE knows how to fix problems that crop up, especially on a scale where potentially hundreds of people might be getting these PCs. On Windows, there may be more problems, but the number of people able to potentially assist in fixing a problem sky-rockets astronomically.
My son uses Linux and loves the scores of games that come with SUSE. And not only games, but other great and free programs like Inkscape for making art and posters or editing postscript and pdf files, or Blender for making 3d models.
Every M$ program that I want him to run now works well with wine (though that may take a little setting up on your part when you install for the kids so it works automatically).
The parent post is very right. Give kids a new toy to play with and they will take to it. When my son was 7 he could handle Linux better than my parents handled Windows.
Go with Linux.
Teach them? Ha! They'll figure out how to find teh pr0n themselves.
How ya like dat?
..about the number of advanced windows techs out there, who really knew their stuff, we wouldn't see the billions of disasters daily with the planet wide numbers of windows machines.
If it was any other product or vendor they would have been dissolved by act of congress by now. That they haven't been shows the wonder of modern legislative and judicial bribery, stupidity and laziness, with a healthy dose of greed and arrogance thrown in for seasoning.
What is really out there are a lot of tech wannabes who kinda sorta know how to fool around in windows. A lot of them charge serious folding money for running a couple of simple GUI based tools when windows shats upon itself. Every copy of windows should come with a case of Pampers and baby wipes. This does not make them experts, but it does show that windows is craptacular in design and implementation, and a marketers wet, sloppy dream.
And these tech wannabes like it that way,it keeps the herds dumbed down and keeps those nice checks rolling in. MS loves it, "tech support" loves it, the hardware vendors love it,but it's a huge and mostly unnecessary cash cow more than anything else and a serious drag on human productivity.
In other words, it's an entrenched scam busywork "industry". Busywork, as in lame, retarded, unnnecessary and when you get down to it, pretty much criminal in nature now, as in fraud and buncoism.
It has gotten to the point that I want to ask those people profitting from windows - "Have you no shame, sir? Have you no shame?"
The best possible outcome for the article submitter is to NOT get the young people addicted to lame mediocrity as some sort of psuedo computing "standard" with the brainwashed and enforced and *expensive* vendor lock-in to pure complete crap.
Give the children at least some sort of chance to break away from their elder's foolish mistakes, there is no sense nor logic to perpetuating this massive fraud and drain on the economy.
If there were no other alternatives, and Microsoft products were "the best the planet had to offer", I wouldn't say this, but there are alternatives, and most of them are much better in over all design than windows, and most of them are certainly cheaper and more "free" in all the good senses, and as such, should be encouraged and promoted. MS is about as relevant and necessary as the **AAs are now, their time has passed, time to move on now. They all made their mega billions, let them be content with that.
Odd that Dutch combines the two. Sorry you got Grammar-Nazi-ed, though. It was a good post.
Human being (n.): A genetically human, genetically distinct, functioning organism.
Point number two in your journal only undermines your own argument. You have a personal vested interest in actually learning to fix things. Most people, and that includes your average teenager, don't give a shit. Nobody taught my kids a damn thing about Linux, they just watched and played and learned. And who are these poor people watching? Watching is a form of self-learning that involves a second party who knows what they are doing. What are you afraid of, huh? That that ghetto denizen might free up some of his/her copious time to read a book, take his time, learn something, and someday know more than you? Terrifying when the peasants get culture, isn't it, your Highness? It isn't long after that that they roll out the guillotine. Hmmm, yes, that pretty much explains it. "Something is happening here but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones?" I'm not afraid of anything. You're the one who's getting incredulously defensive over a dissenting opinion in a debate about something that doesn't even truthfully affect you one way or the other. What exactly is YOUR problem? Man alive, what is that sweat breaking out on the brows of you Microsoft Shillboys whenever we dare to suggest that we bring Linux and a poor person together? There's nothing inherently wrong with "bringing Linux and a poor person together" -- If you're willing to be available for support when the shit hits the fan. When you're working on a scale where you've got possibly 100 people, if not more, who are getting these machines, that's not really feasible -- especially in a non-profit environment. People, in general, are stupid and like to play with things until they break. When those users need help, it's just plain easier to find someone who knows how to fix Windows related issues. And for the record, I'm not a Microsoft shillboy, but I'm not a blind Linux follower either.
As the most "techie" teacher (this was about 7 years back) I was responsible for helping "check out" PCs and other computer equipment donated to our school. It was a real pain, and I can offer some suggestions on how to help sort out hardware.
First, set some minimum quality that you're willing to support. At this point you're unlikely to get any DX2/66MHz machines, but you never know. If you know what OS you'll be running (and how fast the machines need to be to seem useful) then use that to help you decide. Once you have a minimum, (say P3s running 600+MHz with 256MB RAM) start checking donated boxes against the minimums, If they don't meet your criteria, set them aside to be cannibalized into machines that do.
Second, unless you're willing to live in a support nightmare, wipe all the drives and fresh install the OS. If you don't, you're going to find all kinds of crud on the drives... and it's possible that some of it may not be kid-friendly. In addition, if you can get all the boxes into a somewhat similar state, it will be a lot easier to diagnose problems later. It's possible that doing this may mean that you don't get the full resolution of the graphics card or that the Hercules sound card won't work--but that's a small price to pay for a manageable set of boxes.
Next, once you've installed the OS, be sure to create a user account for the kids. Not an admin account (under Windows) or a root account for linux. Assign appropriate privileges. Create a single admin account using the same name and password (for your use) on all the boxes.
Finally, recruit a couple of the best and brightest to help out. There's no reason some of these kids can't assist with formatting drives and installing the OS. If you have a checklist, you could even assign a kid to look at the BIOS screen and make a preliminary decision about whether a box is usable or ready for the cannibalize pile.
Oh yeah--one more thing. Keep a written record of what you did to which machine and what its stats are.
Good luck,
Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
http://www.computersforclassrooms.org/
Check it out.
http://usuarios.arnet.com.ar/fliamarconato/pages/e manual.html
Having done exactly what you're doing for 10 years, I hope I might have a little perspective on it. Basically, you're trying to provide utility, which is kind of a twofold formulation: on the one hand, you want to let these kids use the computers to print, type, game, etc. It's probably true that Linux would run faster and more securely on these older computers, so it might seem like there's more utility there. But really, all of what they're doing now is prep for real-world computer usage--they're not doing anything earthshaking now, but they're gaining computer skills, and as much as we may or may not like it, they'll be best served in the world (especially since they haven't yet been exposed to much tech and it's thus likely will not pursue IT) by Windows skills, not Linux ones. So in my formulation, despite the costs, Windows always won the utility wars, for these particular kids. This might be one of those instances in which the forthcoming cheaper versions of Vista might serve you well! Or maybe they'll lower XP prices when Vista arrives...
Now, the other part of the utility problem has to do with the hardware you take: I love computers, I'm sure you do too, and as a computer lover it's very tempting to take everything you're offered. After all, they're all cool! But you really have to set the most stringent of standards--because everyone has computers to get rid of. If you have any friends who'll tell anyone about your operation, as I did, you'll be buried in computers in no time flat. Really. Set a strict standard and stick by it. Take RAM, HDs, GFX cards, whatever, from computers that don't meet those standards (set standards for these, too) but DO NOT DO NOT take the computers. You will be stuck with tons of useless crap that you can't unload easily (computer recycling gets harder and harder!) and don't feel comfortable giving to end users because it's simply too old. And that situation sucks.
Should you have any further questions, email me: selker REMOVEREMOVE REMOVETHIS@ REMOVETHIS yale. REMOVETHIS edu
That attitude says it all, doesn't it? That's such a common thing to hear from you Microsofties. Well, then, you go right ahead and be stupid! The rest of us will go ahead and get smart. We promise to remember you.
You're the one who's getting incredulously defensive over a dissenting opinion in a debate about something that doesn't even truthfully affect you one way or the other.
What you don't know would fill a book. I already dumped exactly WHY this issue in fact is the CENTRAL FOCUS OF MY ENTIRE LIFE RIGHT HERE, and how convenient that the same retort works for you as well!
How, exactly, is it that you figure that people who GIVE SOFTWARE AWAY (Linux? GNU? Free software? Free source code? Heard of them? Duh, stoooopid?) have no interest in whether the poorest segment of the population recieve the benefit of their work? In fact, the whole entirety of GNU and FOSS is one big charity from day one. Where's Bill Gates' open-sourced, non-restrictively-licensed, free in both cost and freedom operating system, huh? The day we have an open source GPL'd Windows version free to download, modify, and use, is the day Microsoft is welcome at this discussion. In the meantime, GNU, Linux, BSD, Open Solaris, OS X, and Plan9 are doing just fine putting free computer resources in the hands of the masses, thank you very FUCKING much.
SCUM!
Find it here.
Is it fascism yet?
I know this because I was raised with Windows and came away from it with almost nothing.
I don't think it was the computer's fault you ended up with nothing. There's a lot of ugly internals to the Windows OS, and if you came away with nothing, that's completely because you weren't trying hard enough. People don't learn "much of anything" because they are uninterested. This will happen whether you give them Windows, Linux, MacOS or OS/360: users will learn what they need to in order to do what they want to and that's it. Those who think the computer should do more than is obvious that it can do will take the time to really learn things, and they will take something away from the experience.
That said, I'd agree with the linux route for a different reason. There's so much software for linux that you can just apt-get, emerge, yum, etc. Sure, there's a lot of free software to get most things done on windows, too, but only if you know how to use google already. Esp with Ubuntu and the like: just click the boxes in aptitude, etc and software is downloaded and installed, all in one step. Linspire's Click-n-Run is super cool, too. Sure beats the Search on google, download the file, find the file, run the file, click next on all of the dialog boxes process that's required on windows.
If you preinstall an OS with Web browser, Office Products, some games, etc. you're fine. They're charity computers right? With the money you save on windows licenses you can get even more computers. That's the greater good, IMHO, even if some of the recipients are less than happy with the OS.
That attitude says it all, doesn't it? That's such a common thing to hear from you Microsofties. Well, then, you go right ahead and be stupid! The rest of us will go ahead and get smart. We promise to remember you. You sit there and equate Windows with stupid people, and Linux with smart types. How is your attitude any different? Obviously anyone who disagrees with your opinion must be inherently stupid. (rolls eyes) Assinine behavior will never change the world, no matter how noble your intentions. By the way, ever heard of hobbyists? Lots of people do shit as a hobby and give it away free. And most of them aren't trying, nor expecting, to change the world with those hobbies. But you can't change the world when 90+% of the world doesn't think the a problem exists to begin with. And for the record, I did read that post. And it still doesn't mean shit. You got by without Windows. That's great. My best friend survived a car accident that killed 3 people, and he wasn't even wearing a seatbelt. Here's a reality check: Nothing can be broken down into absolutes. You're in a minority, and most people have absolutely NO interest in the computers themselves or the operating systems running on them -- But when those PCs break and the user can't access his/her email/blog/whatever, they get REALLY pissy. I've worked tech support, this is just how people are.
I think that the best way to test a computer / components is to use a LiveCD: you get a fully-fledged OS as well as the tools you'll need to check and configure different hardware. When I was volunteering at Interconnection, I often brought in my own Knoppix 3.9 disk to test the old systems we would get. It's not *fast*, but legally it beats copying Win2K disks and just shutting them down once you got as far as the 'Ready to install' screen.
Another reason to like LiveCDs is that they're indistructible. With Knoppix, you can save personal settings to an HD with ever actually having to install the OS to the drive; alternatively, you can vet the hardware with the LiveCD, then move it to the HD as a Debian install.
The whole argument about which OS is better should be ignored; any OS is better than nothing, and you can get FOSS disks for a lot less than MS licenses, which for a non-profit should be a key consideration. I grew up with a Commodore 64, moved to a Mac SE, played with an Apple IIGS and Mac Color, then went with an IBM for my first self-bought machine; these kids need exposure to computer concepts and access to working systems more than they need to be kept within the bounds of the "majority" OS and its peccadillos.
-- Let him who is without spelling error ignite the first flame --
At Free Geek, we use Linux. And when people ask me why, I usually end up defending Microsoft.
I know that people pirate and copy Microsoft products all the time. And at many levels this is kind of done with a wink wink nudge nudge by everyone involved, including probably Microsoft themselves.
However, when you are running an organization, and you are producing computers, people can start asking questions. Which means, if you are installing Windows, make sure it is legal! If you are churning out lots of computers with pirated Windows, you will probably get caught. It doesn't matter if it is for charity.
Now, that does mean that you will be paying 200 dollars a license, and 400 dollars for a license of Office. This means that if you wanted to give out, say, ten computers with Windows XP Home Edition and Office Standard Edition, you would be paying 6000 dollars.
At Free Geek, aside from any philosophical ideas, we can't afford to spend 6000-10000 dollars a week on licenses for computers we are giving out.
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
Surely you are trying to give these kids a step up in the world, and a way to learn the things theyll need to know to succeed. I hate to say it, especially as an open source fan, but it's gonna have to be Windows. The standard is the standard, as much as it may be a bad one.
When they are in the workplace, they will be using Windows, almost guaranteed. When they get a computer for themselves, or use someone elses, they will use Windows. It may be buggy, and a pain, but thats the way youre gonna have to go.
As for other software... well thats another matter. Take open source and run with it. Open Office, Firefox, Thunderbird, GAIM, GIMP, etc. It'll save you a fortune on liscencing, but it will also give them a look at the program's they'll want. People that are using donated computers wont be able to afford a couple hundred dollar liscence on MS Office or Photoshop... so why bother having them learn it when there are great open source alternatives that run on the OS they'll be using anyways?
You sit there and equate Windows with stupid people
Who said "people are stupid"? y, o, u. Not I. The whole POINT of my speech (and my life's work) is that people are just as smart as they want to be. It's a fact, science backs me up, whether you accept it or not. But then you turn around the next time and disown what you've said and try to put the words in *my* mouth. Perhaps, you are disgusted by your own behavior?
You're in a minority, and most people have absolutely NO interest in the computers themselves or the operating systems running on them
Based on your experience in tech support? That's all you're going to give me? Sir or madam, I sincerely hope you fall on the same hard times that the desperate and destitute all over the world live in every day, just so somebody like the "you" you are now comes up to you when you're scraping for a chance to pull your family up out of crack central by working your ass off 12 hours a day sustained only on a can of beans and tells you, "You're too stupid. You're here because you just don't want to succeed." That's exactly your attitude towards them. You're not even pretending to care. Amazing!
But hearing all this from you, you're making a case that *YOU* have the best ideas how to help the impoverished? Based on your attitude, I think you'd rather they all died starving and freezing while you piss on them!
Thank you anyway for the enlightenment. I have always wondered what the agenda of Window-worshipers was whenever the subject of computers for charity comes up. I was indifferent to your kind before. Now, I see grounds for a full-on war.
The problem with windows on refurb. computers is that you might not be entitled to the license that originally came with it.
There is a company here in Portland called Free Geek http://www.freegeek.org/ that recycles computers and electronic components. The refined their own version of linux to make a quite useable machine. Most of them are donated to charities, and not kids, but my understanding is that the people who receive them have little trouble using them.
There's nothing magic about Windows and Office... a decently configured linux box and open office are just as easy to use and just as effective for someone who doesn't already have a computer and isn't a power-user.
Check out what the local community colleges are emphasizing in their course curriculum and tailor your lessons for them in this way.
Encourage the kids to develop an interest in this stuff. Then, when the time comes, encourage the older teens to apply for IT programs at a local college and earn a degree in that field and make computers a career. So if they see that local college X does courses in web design, and you already taught them web design, they be very willing to make a career out of it. This might be a goal that seems feasible to them and this should prepare them to live a stable life in the future which they haven't experienced before.
OSX is neither free as in cost or as in freedom.
I disagree about device driver compatibility with Linux.. Though you're guaranteed to get support on Windows, it can be crappy support, and it usually involves a driver installation. With Linux, the driver's either in the kernel, where it will likely be quite stable, or not in the kernel. With some devices, the user will have to compile a module, but a lot of drivers on Linux "just work" better than they would on Windows. I'm not saying Linux has the upper hand, but I do think the driver development model there is better, it just lacks a lot of first party support.
After careful thought, I believe that anything less than 500Mhz 256mb ram should not be used. Any slower than this and your system is not going to be responsive with modern software. Also, I would not use anything slower than this personally, so I would not give it to others. A preferable system would be 800 Mhz 384mb ram, with the ideal at 900Mhz and 512mb. Buying ram will be the number one cost to refurbishing old systems.
Also, what people don't realize is that software that runs on Windows 98 will not work on 2000. They think that all "windows software" works anywhere, and this is simply not the case (though microsoft never points this out).
I prefer to recommend (or give) people a set of apps that can run on windows and linux (like firefox, abiword) that way when they make the move to linux it's less of a shock when I do a windows reinstall. All systems I rebuild to give away gets Linux. When moving to Linux, if they have a need for a specific app (like Word) then maybe codeweavers crossover office is an option (cheaper than a windows license). If they need to play lots of games or are stuck on the idea of windows then they can come up with the money to buy a windows OEM license and I will install it for them.
That way they understand that software is not really free and I'm not shackled with the cost of worrying about the license. And they are encouraged to think about evolving alternatives in the future.
Anyway, that's just my opinion from someone that repairs (and gives) systems for a number of family and friends.
Hi
Many have pointed out that you would get a lot of junk computers.
I suggest that you take the fast computers and connect them in a mosix cluster
and then use the slow ones as xterminals.
What are you people smoking? Seriously, Microsoft won't even give away their software to 3rd-world countries, let alone to anyone in the U.S.A.!
/ 22/2144227
What, you want to pay the licensing costs for _every_single_machine_ you give away? How many more machines could you afford to refurbish and give away with the money you'd spend for legit Windows licenses? How many hours of internet access would it pay for?
If the people that end up with these machines *need* Windows, let them get it for themselves, as a school or employer that requires them having a computer with Windows will supply one or issue payout vouchers for what's required.
I have the feeling that >%80 won't even know the difference at first, and for common tasks it doesn't much matter..one e-mail client or word processing program is pretty much like another for the most common tasks. If they ask you why you can't install Windows on these PCs, explain that MS won't allow their software to be given away/transferred in a way that makes it easy and practical for you to stay within the law.
The thing that scares Microsoft and the astro-turfers and shills, is all the embarassing questions from a demographic who started out without adware, spyware, malware, virusses, trojans, and all the other nastiness that comes with Windows when it comes to trying convince them to buy it later.
Imagine Microsoft having to explain exactly *why* they should spend *very* scarce funds to add all those woes, compared to what they used on the PC that they got *FREE* that does all the common tasks very well, thankyou.
I'm sure Dell et al would also rather see more new hardware sold, rather than waves of refurbished PCs with *nix chugging away in poorer households.
I expect to see legislation introduced to hinder such giveaways of old refurbished hardware (if there isn't anything pending now I'm not aware of) like "environmentaly safe disposal" regulations or possibly electrical or FCC compliance rules to prohibit reuse/resale, maybe something similar to what Japan just passed. http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/02
I do a lot of charity work, and deal with a lot of small community and volunteer charity groups. I just can't see it being practical for a small grassroots volunteer charity organization to deal with the costs, paperwork, and legal help it would require to give away a proprietary OS and stay legally in the clear, when just keeping the lease/rent, heat, lights, and phones paid is a monthly battle.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Get in touch with Free Geek of Portland, Oregon. They've been doing this kind of thing for years.
The Free Geek model is to acquire older computers by donation, many from corporations, city governments and so forth, then refurbish them. The donators can claim a tax credit and have the assurance that no data will survive the hard disk wiping, reformatting, and testing process. Volunteers are used in stripping the incoming machines down to the component level, testing all the boards, CPUs, etc separately, then building up refurbished computers from the the pieces that survive the testing process. The computers are loaded with Linux and whatever FOSS they can handle. Some go out as "grant boxes" to other non-profits that need them; many are given as rewards to the volunteers (general volunteers earn a box after 20 hours of service; those in the Build program get to keep the 6th system they put together). There is a Computers For Kids program that might be of particular interest to you.
Components that fail the testing are recycled. Cases are smashed and sold as scrap metal, CPUs and the fingers cut from circuit boards are tossed in a bin and eventually sold for the gold content; etc. All this requires quite a bit of volunteer labor. Young people provide a lot of that labor.
Without Linux, this approach wouldn't be workable. Fortunately for Free Geek, Linux is a lot less demanding of system resources than Windows, and you can build up a very nice Debian with all the office and student basics from healthy components that simply don't meet the latest Windows requirements.
So, how does that cute, yet not too melancholy story relate to this? You're going to have to make do with what you get/can get. You might not be able to choose something you won't have to service in 6 months. You might not be able to use the newest OS. When it comes down to upgrading the systems you get (mobo/proc and RAM, and don't forget the license for Windows) in order to run XP, and getting more systems to reach more people, you'll have to make that decision. Personally, I would use Linux (pick your favorite distro) on older boxes. If they're really old, have it boot to a console, and use it for more "advanced" kids. There's always someone who'll take to it, and want to learn more. We all had that first computer experience, and I'm willing to bet most weren't on a brand new machine. So, they can work on a console, and consider it a challenge. For the... lets say, less computer savvy, you give them the newer systems with a full GUI.
I can't stress enough that a console Linux box, or even just a smaller window manager (fluxbox, etc) makes an old slow system into something new. I think that's your best bet in terms of getting the most systems, cheapest, but the trade off is having things that aren't as visually appealing.
On the other hand, if you want to teach Windows I'd reccomend getting as old a version as you can, that will maximize the computers power. If it's only got 256 MB RAMI guess what this long, late-night ramble is getting to is this. There's no hard and fast. You can request whatever you want, but you'll end up having to make do with what you get. And to that end, it'll be up to you whether you can afford to upgrade another system in hopes of getting XP (remember, pay for the license) on there, or use a Linux version that is appropriate. If these kids haven't used a computer before, no matter what you teach them, they'll learn, so don't be biased against Linux, simply because of look. And in the end, the learning is up to them. You might talk with the student, find out the interests, and from that make the call of which system to give, with which OS (if you have the luxary of having 5-10 different machines in at one time).
Want to find other gamers to play board and role playing game
You're right. Last time I looked there weren't any Windows only games for Linux.
Cogito, ergo sig.
I'm living in Germany at the moment, and I'm actually pretty afraid that when I'm ready here, I won't be able to speak neither German, English, or Dutch correctly :) There are a lot of expressions that are similar but e.g. common use in one language and old-fashioned in the other. Actually I once read the play "Nathan der Weise" by Lessing (1779), and noticed that he used a lot of words that had to be annotated to be understandable in German at this time, but make perfect sence as dutch words. Example from the first page: 'Küssen', you still pronounce it like that in Dutch, in German you now say: Kissen.
I often confuse my dutch friends by using awkward German-like expressions. As long as I still write down nouns in Dutch without a capital I'm still ok I guess ;)
molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
from an operational point of view windows is probablly better if you never plan to see theese pcs again but linux may be easier if you have to manage it yourself.
then theres the licensing issue, if you use the original windows licenses they will all be runnning different versions with all the support fun that will bring. Theres also the issue that many machines are likely to be lacking media/licenses. Relicensing all the machines is liable to get expensive fast
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
Compelling unless you have to buy this software, including OS. Good luck finding donors for licences for equivalents for all the stuff that you'd get free with Ubuntu, (not to mention Automatix). Any donated hardware is likely to be a year or tow old, and very likely to be supported by Linux (except perhaps for a few pathological devices like Winmodems, which can be cheaply replaced)
: p
[ insert meme here ]
Look at the licencing fees that must be paid to M$ for every product you use which is generally sent out of your community to retail and M$ head offices.
With linux,OpenOffice,Gimp and other FOSS the money otherwise sent out of town is kept in your community and can be spent on things that build local companies.
"Now, that does mean that you will be paying 200 dollars a license, and 400 dollars for a license of Office. This means that if you wanted to give out, say, ten computers with Windows XP Home Edition and Office Standard Edition, you would be paying 6000 dollars."
What I would like to know is why everyone feels the need to exaggerate the price of licenses? Linux's free is unbeatable even if the alterantives cost a dollar. So why exaggerate?
Personal computers are dirt cheap these days, and spending more than about 200 dollars to build a low-budget machine is foolish. Used computers that will run Windows XP start with a Pentium III with 256 megabytes of RAM. A machine of this class, with a CD burner, can be had for under 200 dollars. Check your local newspapers. Always ask to boot a computer when you buy used. If there is ANY problem, always walk away from the deal. As a computer user becomes more sophisticated, he/she can always acquire a more powerful machine. Frequently, a computer user only needs minimal performance to use the Internet and receive E-mail, so there is no need for a fancy gaming computer. Since most real businesses use MS Windows, teaching Linux may boost your ego, but it is a waste of time. The same applies to office software. Knowing how to use E-mail is a necessity. Most businesses use MS Outlook. MS Office or Open Office or any MS Office emulator with a word processor and spreadsheet will work just fine, again, because this is what runs on most real business computers. Teach the little thugs and thugettes how to use the Internet, including how to protect themselves when surfing. For home use, have them learn BOTH MS Explorer AND Mozilla for Internet use, because each program has different advantages. Some Websites only work with Windows Explorer, but Mozilla offers better personal security and control. Finally inculcate the idea that learning to use a personal computer will never end, that if they cease learning, someone who continued to learn will take their job away from them!
Goddamned kids! Get off my lawn!
Judge Judy teaches us that if we give someone something, and they freely accept it, then our responsibility for that product is finished, including proper disposal!
Goddamned kids! Get off my lawn!
Let's divide the issue into it's two components: 1-Hardware and 2-Teaching
1 -Hardware: Your windowing manager will drive everything else you do if you choose Linux. For Gnome or KDE, you need a minimum of 128 Meg of RAM (regardless of processor) to even start running with acceptable performance. Load OpenOffice and you probably need more. So, scavenge or buy addition RAM and fill each box to the tits.
2 - Teaching: Educators and propeller-heads like me always seem to think that just having computers will make kids smart. This is completely and utterly wrong. Less is more in this area. If you're going to teach, teach them universal skills. Show them how to cut, copy and paste using the keyboard. Explain the F1 key and how to search and read documentation. Give them a fundamental understanding of how to create, store and manage files. Cause a crash on a machine so that they can learn how important backing up is. In short, teach them how to learn, not how to follow a pattern of behaviour.
I see this so often: students are 'shown' Excel but come away only learning the features of Excel, not how to use it to create solutions for their needs. They are not being taught, they are being trained. This approach is incredibly wrong-headed and needs so much work to change the mind-sets of those creating the curriculum.
One other thing I found was this: I canvassed kids for the ones who didn't have a computer at home. When families receive a computer it makes their lives so much better. You might try this approach too.
*** Don't be dull.***
...what's the best way to test the influx of hardware that's coming in quickly, efficiently and reliably to make sure won't need servicing within another 6 months?
As someone who has been recycling used compuers for the last 4 or 5 years, I have a few tips for you.
1. Any Pentium II or Pentium III is a good candidate for recycling. Even Pentiums may work out if the clock speed is 200 Mhz. Below this, I wouldn't use except for dedicated things like a firewall/router. I have had good luck with 133 or 166 Mhz Pentium machines used in this capacity.
2. You may need to upgrade the RAM for any desktops: many computers of this vintage have only 32 Mbytes of RAM and I consider 64 Mbytes to be a minimum today. Even a minimal Windows 98 or Linux install with Internet capability will swap its brains out with only 32 Mbytes of RAM. Scavenge RAM from defective machines to put in the better ones.
3. Fans, fans, fans - don't think about this, just do it! Replace the CPU fan, the power supply fan and any case fans. Don't replaqce the power supply; most of the early supplies are built better than new ones; just replace the fan. Use good quality ball-bearing fans (you'll find that most of the originals were sleeve bearings). The single biggest problem I have with used systems is fans!
4. This goes with #3 above - clean the case! I can't tell you how many older machines I got that were overheating and then functioned perfectly after cleaning many years of accumulated dust out of the air inlet holes in the case! Get a good shop vac and suck all the dust out in the direction opposite of normal airflow.
5. CDROM drives - somewher around the increase to 20X or 24X, CDROM drives got very unreliable. If it is faster than 24X, replace it; they are cheap and not worth the hassle of having a system returned. I have 8X drives that run very reliably still but there is a big caveat here: make sure thay can read CD-R's: some of the early drives could not!
6. Hard drives - surprisingly, older hard drives seem much more reliable than new ones! I have an entire shelf of working hard drives that were swapped out, not because they were bad, but simply because they were too small. Any 2, 3, 4 or 8 Gbyte drive will probably last a long time. For anything 10 Gbytes or larger, download the respective manufacturer's diagnostic utility and run it: if it shows any disk errors, discard! This isn't bad advice for the smaller ones, but, in my experience, the smaller ones either work perfectly or not at all!
7. Monitors - discard any that don't have power-saving capabilities. Before they beacme available and I started using them, monitors without power-save features (they power down to a minimal power usage when the sync signals are removed) were the single biggest replacement item I ran into. Beyond that, you will be saving many watt-hours of electricity.
8. Keyboards - check the spacebar key! Itisusuallythefirsttofail. Although many laugh, I routinely recycle old, dirty keyboards by running them through a dishwasher, no soap, and then thoroughly (2-3 days) drying them before using them. If they don't work, toss them; good keyboards are 3-5$ at the local Microcenter. On old systems, stay away from USB keyboards; even motherboards that supported them did poorly at first.
9. Mice - see above; most of the tips for keyboards go for mice, too. The rollers on old mechanical mice will almost always need to be cleaned throughly. Use isopropyl alcohol and clean the mouse ball, too. If they need to be replaced, get optical mice, they never need cleaning.
10. power cords - this is an interesting one! I have noticed that, on older systems, the universal connector that they use to plug into the system unit no longer makes good contact after being inserted/removed untold number of times. Check it, wiggle it, replace if necessary.
Hope this helps.
And Microsoft's own page for Office
I did exagerate by two dollars.
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
I must have messed up my html on the above post.
This is the page for Windows XP
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
This isn't about "right" or "wrong", it's about human nature. What you learn first is what you will be comfortable with. If your first system uses linux, oo.o, and gimp you'll be comfortable using them. If your first system has Vista, MS Office and Photoshop then those will be your reference point. Any change will be uncomfortable, and it is human nature avoid discomfort.
If you are such a big Linux/UNIX user why do you keep spreading FUD. If the kids haven't seen Windows they are much better off being exposed to a Linux Desktop.
I think using Windows creates a much larger support problem because, you can't really fix problems in Windows most solutions are just work arounds for bugs. Plus, what if somebody calls the BSA on the folks doing the recycling and the BSA says pony up?
Why is the computer becoming FUBARed a definite with Linux and something that wont happen with Windows
:x
Totally disagree. If they learn using another system (any other system), they'll have a basic understanding of the concepts. They can learn Windows, and how its similar and different, quite easily since they will probably be introduced to Windows at some point if they continue to use computers.
In my experience, people who have always used Windows, Word, and Excel are often completely unable to cope when they encounter anything even slightly different. People who came to Windows after another system are a lot better at understanding what's actually happening. I don't know why this is, but my hypothesis is simply that Windows tries so hard to hide everything. You have documents, tunes, pictures and applications, rather than files. XP seems to be trying to hide "My Computer" even. You have different applications all melded together. This is not a criticism of Windows. This makes sense for a domestic product since it aims to make the computer usable by people who haven't spent time learning, but it does make Windows into a less suitable platform if you do want to learn about what computers can do in a more general way.
Linux, you can have all the free games you want.
There are loads of free games for Windows, too. Granted, most people prefer the so-called "blockbusters", but that doesn't mean those are all there is. And there's a whole lot of old Windows/DOS games that still run well (some even on Linux, I believe), like the Monkey Island series.
Quality, performance, value; you get only two, and you don't always get to pick.
*sigh* 10..9..8..7..6..5..4..3..2..1
Look we're talking about 501 organizations, aka charities.
Here's Microsoft's Open Charity program.
Here's the Open Charity pricing list.
Windows XP professional is $79.00 Not $200.00. Also the resellers have flexability so it pays to shop around.
I use M$ windows on my game playing notebook and would not recommend for any work use at all, that toy operating system is only really fit for overheating xboxes. As for M$ office or even worse M$ works (of which I have two legal copies but have as yet not found anyone I dislike enough to give them to) I pretty much find them unfit for any purpose ;).
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Well, one may ask. Myself, I've had a blinding revelation these past two days: There is, in fact, no difficulty with computers at all, for anyone. There is no such thing as a computer illiterate person. There is nothing to stop ALL of us from becoming our own Linux Torvalds. There is only the TriezGamer's, pomo monster's, and EZLeeAmused's out there.
They work for Microsoft. Or they volunteer to do it's dirty work because Microsoft is part of their stock portfolio, anyway. Microsoft would never have made a penny, if they could not convince people that, against the evidence of their own senses, they are too stupid to figure out a computer. As Neal Stephenson has noted in Command Line essay, at the time that Microsoft first started, charging money for computer software was a strange concept. Every computer came with some rudimentary programming language. Programming, back in the late 80's, was something that just any old body could do at all.
So you launch a campaign where you essentially hire a group of human parrots to scream "You'reTooStupid!You'reTooStupid!You'reTooStupid!" all the time. People lose confidence. You close up source code and send lawyers to harrass every competitor out of business. You drive people to enslave themselves to you, by convincing them that they can't live without you.
This explains where just about every MS user in here craps such red hot pokers every time we say "Let's give Linux to somebody." That's one more user who won't get their crack. That's why I have a volley of trolls dogging me every time I try to teach somebody something, and the trolls are all screaming "He's wrong! Visual Basic is better than C! .NET is the perfect language! All the others give you herpes!" That scares them almost as much: somebody learning something about computers, and proving that they're not so stupid, after all?
I regret that I only have one life to devote to defeating such intentional ignorance.
You should probably get some help with that..
:x
If you wont give 'em Linux then how will Linux advance anyway? I would definetly give them Linux. I don't think you should help them get into computer gaming but help them to learn with the computers. Linux has loads of education software. And Linux is available in many, many languages.
Let's refine that. Some are transferable. Some aren't. But without a lot of leg work investigating the provenance of the software and acquiring the official proof of purchase certificates, any and all MS cruft - even the cruft which is supposed to be transferable - will count as being illegally installed. To reiterate, without the official proof of purchase certificates from MS, the MS software counts as being illegal. That puts the charity receiving the machines in as much or worse of a bad space than the n00b who put MS on the refurbished machines in the first place.
Did the machines come with the proof of purchase certificates? No? Then that forces a decision to either spend time looking for them or use software which will not lead into legal difficulties.
It's simple return on investment, in this case it's time being invested. Time spent tracking down licenses that doesn't result in acquiring a physical, official proof of purchase certificate is wasted as far as the end result goes. That's time that could have been spent refurbishing more computers or teaching others to do so or teaching others to use them.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Yes.
(You must be new here).
8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
It hasn't. That's an introduction very common among shills.
It's a common misconception, but you do not need a licence from Microsoft to run Windows. The Law of the Land {in the US and the UK at least} already gives you permission to do that: as long as you acquired Windows legitimately, the right to make a copy of the program in memory for the purpose of execution is part of your right of fair dealing / fair use. The Law also gives you the right to transfer your copy of Windows to another person: that would come under exhaustion of rights / first sale doctrine.
..... some countries are known to have corrupt legal systems, where the winner of a civil action may be liable for some costs and/or money may be required to change hands before a verdict is delivered. If you live in such a country, the winner of any civil suit is invariably the person who had more money to begin with.
These are statutory rights, given to you by the Law of the Land. No agreement into which you enter can affect your statutory rights and be worth the paper it's printed on.
However
At any rate, the question you want to be asking yourself is "Do I want these people to be taking their food from the skips behind supermarkets, which is fairly harmless but implicitly depends on the supermarket being there; or do I want them to be growing all their own food, and so not dependent upon anyone else?"
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
Most of the charity to the underprivileged has been of this sort - Teach the best and brightest the most. The mantra is "Education, Education, Education", "Teach to fish rather than give a fish", etc.
Unfortunatly, what often happens is that the best and brightest take their new education, and leave, never to return, thus causing a brain drain, and leaving the people left behind worse off than before.
What is needed is breath of education, rather than depth. You need to teach many people simple skills, rather than educating the few children who can leave the farm long enough to go to school. Installing a source of clean water could have more good impact than teaching someone to read. Teaching everyone that clean water is important could have even more benefit. The rights of women and children are extremly important if you want to end poverty in a region. Integrating into society should be a much longer term goal, only after everyone in the area is better off.
All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
I have three children, ages 11, 7, and 5. All three of them are able to tinker with games, and they could care less which operating system is on the computer, as long as the games are cool. My eleven year old son is much more savvy than most people (including me) gave him credit for. This past week, he was grounded from using his GameBoy and PSP. So what did he do? He tried all four computer systems in our house, looking for ways to connect to the Internet, find games,and look for resources.
I had set up my system to allow me to automatically boot and login to a KDE session on one of the systems and password protect it once up. He couldn't get in while it was up, so he rebooted the system and FOUND the WAY IN!
Needless to say, kids are resourceful. Not finding Internet Explorer, he rather quickly found Firefox, then used it to access Game Boy and Pokemon sites. Too bad he wasn't smart enough (yet) to cover up his trail! Busted!
Anyway, though, kids from elemenary school to high school age are more able to figure out differences in applications and even operating systems than most adults are, whether they already know them or not. My son's experience with Linux has been playing a very few games in my presence.
Therefore, since these systems are refurbished, possibly aging systems, and the desire is to keep them presumably inexpensive and easy to update, I suggest that there are a number of general purpose Linux distributions that can meet general requirements. In addition, there are also quite a few special purpose Linux distributions targeted at specific tasks, for example, Kiosks, Firewall servers, simple desktop system, evaluation Live CD, etc. The flexibility and choices are there; many of these choices work very well.
Brian Masinick, masinick at yahoo dot com Linux
As a service technician and sales associate, I would recommend windows if you can get a hold of it. While windows XP will probably be out of your league unless you buy it, I wouldn't settle for anything less than windows 98SE. The biggest issue you will probably have from a software standpoint is maintaining them with proper drivers. I would recommend copying each computer's drivers to a CD incase you do need to do a reinstall. Also, from experience with a wide variety of installing on older machines with varying parts, is to use driver sites, or tool kits (like the driverguide toolkit at driverguide.com) to find these drivers.
If you do decide to go with linux, use cross platformed software like firefox and openoffice to help minimize the transitions. If you intend to teach email and IM, stick with one service which is simple and generic enough so that the same methodologies and feel are kept when changing to something a little different. Teach as much cross compatibility as you can, so when they do move to windows that the feel is nearly identical.
Finally, if you are pressed for finding good donation, and you do have a small budget, you can resort to buying cheap refurbished machines. In my city, cheap pentium 2 400MHz machines start at 20 bucks (CDN) with memory ranging from 64 - 256mb of ram. Another alternative is to see if there are any computer auctions. It is possible to get a whole skid of computers on the cheap, and would provide you with additional parts for faster machinesd if they do go down on you.
Check out http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/ as it runs very well on low end hardware and utilizes some of Knoppix's hardware detection infrastructure. I've got it running quite nicely on several low end laptops ie Pentium-90 w/24Mb ram with X running. No cdrom or USB can be overcome by creating an image from a well endowed system and dumping it on the low end hardware(needs floppy drive and network card) using "Ghost for Unix" aka g4u available at http://www.feyrer.de/g4u/ . Good luck in your noble endeavor.
Dominic Caffey
i have done just what you have questions about. at first i went with a basic win98 install, but then had to switch to ubuntu due to concerns with being faced with piracy charges due to not having the appropriate windows volume licensing for my organization. to test systems i just burned off a batch of ultimate boot cds and ran them through the courses checking the cpu, ram, and drives. but defineatly would suggest going open source to avoid being bit in the future. if the user wants to install windows i would leave it to them to do on thier own, with no express support on the software in the future if they chose to do so.
Save the environment and stop tossing "boat anchors" into the water. Take that P3 pile in the corner, and add another NIC or two and create a M0n0wall BSD firewall for free. PFSense has fail over capability built in, and you can traffic shape without paying Cisco a fortune.
Oh You POS
Still doesn't matter. It's still non-zero, and it's still too much for most organizations to just *give away* to anyone who wants/needs/qualifies for it.
About 5 years ago, when I was doing my Eagle scout project, I ran a small refurbish-for-charity computer operation. This was right around Y2K (haha) and a lot of local businesses were throwing out their computers. I collected the computers, led fellow scouts in sprucing them up (cleaning it physically, adding more RAM or any other spare parts if applicable). We placed about 50 complete systems in the local school district.
Being 15 at the time, I didn't know a lot about obtaining licenses for Windows. I went to a local computer vendor, explained my situation, and he worked out the details with Microsoft, and I got free reign to install Windows 95 on these systems.
Windows 95 was the best solution I could have hoped for:
* Most of these computers couldn't run anything more than Windows 95
* Windows 95 provided Internet Explorer, so the computers we're online. For in school use, internet access is usually all you need
* Most people in the schools had used Windows in some capacity, so there wasn't a steep learning curve.
This is going to be dangerous, given how in love with Linux everyone here is, but yea, I'm going to say it. I don't think putting Linux on donated PCs is a good idea at all. All the arguments are for how "easy it is to pick up if they've never touched Windows" , etc. What about when it breaks? Local computer shop down the street probably won't fix Linux for free -- they probably don't know it themselves. And if this is someone's first computer, odds are they're not going to learn enough about Linux to fix it themselves. Once it breaks, it'll get tossed or sit in the basement. So yea, go ahead and flame me, I really don't care. The project worked out, thanks to the benevolence of Microsoft and the donated copies of Windows 95.
cndrr
Well, being a mac user, I've never suffered for want of games, and I'm sure the same carries over to Windows. All you have to do is be creative. For starters, there are addictive web-based games like Neopets or Nationstates that have no platform requirements. Then I imagine you could get something like Ur-Quan Masters or LinCity. Then hopefully pearpc and WINE'll get you somewhere. I mean pearpc could run most early Ambrosia games I bet, which is months of entertainment in and of itself, at low processor and graphics requirements. So yeah, you won't be able to play the latest GTA game, but there are options out there if you look.
Switching from Lotus 123 to Excell caused me the same heartburn. Everything worked but it JUST DIDN'T FEEL RIGHT. Took me a long time to get used to it. And, no, I have not forgiven.
None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
There is an operation in Portland Oregon, that does exactly this.
It is called I believe FreeGeek or something similar.
I suggest you contact them about how they run their program.
They don't 'give' the PC's away. The recipient earns them somehow, by typically spending X number of hours at the Free Geek warehouse, disassembling and reassembling the donated PC's. The benefit is that at the end the recipients have some sort of understanding of what they are dealing with.
FreeGeek is also pretty creative about recycling the metal in the PC's that they cannot get to run. I think they generate enough income to be able to pay the rent on the place, and one full time staff member.
IIRC they are Linux oriented; partly for cost reasons, and partly for support reasons - Lots of the software is old, and the latest WinXP wont run on it, but Linux and a nice app suite will do fine.
Remember most of these people just want to be USERS of software, so it does not matter which environment they learn at the beginning. So long as they can do email, webBrowsing, word processing and games they are OK.
Linux or Windows will work equally well, but Linux is cheaper and the support is better.
Anyway, give them a call; they can probably tell you about their experience in more detail.
>Yeah, sure, and then they make you jump thru hoops by having the original bill of sale when the SPA comes calling. And they will, bet the farm on it as you are a VERY high profile target.
Right. He will be right on the list before megacorp-with-10,000-employees-who -only-bought-1,000-licenses. VERY high profile. Cuz you know there are just SO many viscious people donating computers out there with unlicensed software. And man, those people who receive them, we'll just run in and say "Sorry, you can't have this. The nice person who donated it to you and the geek who built it, well, they were crooks. Have a microsoftie day!"
It would be a PR nightmare for them, they wouldn't dare. They would probably work something out privately and donate the windows licenses. Shit. It's probably the EASIEST way to get them licensed software.
-- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship
Your attempt at sarcastic humor didn't get any laughs here. They have done exactly that and poor publicity over it has always been spun to say look, we caught another pie-rat.
I tend to run with the facts. Yeah, they go look at megacorp with their 10,000 employees & only 50 licenses, maybe, depending on what megacorp has those 10,000 employees doing. 9550 of them could be coal miners for all you know. Thats not to say those coal miners don't use windows at home, possibly pirated, but thats a seperate, totally unrelated problem.
Its precisely that these rebuilders are so high profile due to their emphasis on charitable giving in their advertising efforts to collect these machines, that they get the SPA's attention. Thats the real world we live in IF you do windows.
And thats why there's only one windows machine on the premises at the moment, its the neighbors and I'm trying to figure out why it self reboots randomly, or doesn't boot, not even post, also randomly. I left memtest86 running on it last night, in the 3rd pass, when I got up it was back on pass 0. Beginning to think its motherboard. It also has trouble reading a floppy even with a new, known good floppy hanging on the end of the cable. Its a &$^%#! older Compaq, 1Gig athlon, 256 memory, what can I say...
--
Cheres, gene
"The only people who do not accept this idea are those who have vested interests in it not happening.Usually these people do not go public with the opinion, because One Laptop Per Child is a non-profit organization with a purely charitable and non-profit purpose. Heads of State know that their most valuable natural resource is their children. Scaling education as we know it will take too long and be too expensive. This is a very economic solution, one that engages the children in the betterment of their own education."
-Nicholas Negroponte, in recent interview on his $100. laptop project
Couldn't have said it better myself. It's a full on war between the people who want a better tomorrow for the world, and the Nazis who want the human race to be forever enslaved to a few Sadistic millionaires. And sweetheart, when that revolution comes to a head, bet your fuckin' ass I'll be out there fighting for the right side.
who are you talking to? Your post seems completely unrelated to the parents.
:x
No mod points today naturally :(
;)
This is what is seems to come down to alright.
Yes they SHOULD learn on WinXP with Office 2003 since thats what the world uses. But how many of those will come with that and how many of those have clear licenses or disks? Not enough certainly.
Many donated boxes would be win98 i imagine. How do you know those are legit installs, many 98 installs arent. What are the odds of donated machines coming with the orig doc and licenses?
Are they going to be used together and/or would all having the same system be better for training? I could see many cases where having linux/win98/win2000/winxp together could be bad (or good for demo if you like the extra work of getting many dif systems to function
It would seem that finding a linux distro is the only useable answer (unless there is a way to get a bulk win98 license or something). If they are going to be given to people never to be seen again, maybe the original system would be ok.
---
Not quite sure on the non-transferable issue you mention, never seen that. If i give you my machine i can sure as hell leave it loaded. You can't reinstall OEM stuff on a new box(thus OEM!), is that the reference?
The problem with getting "charity" licenses is that if Microsoft is smart, and I assume they are, they will want to know that they are really going to charitable usage of some sort. I don't know if refurbishing and donating computers is what these licenses are intended for, which means that if you keep on buying small quantities over time, it might be suspicious.
So, if you are going to have charity licenses, you will want to have documentation that you are giving computers to people who are in need, with no recompense to yourself. You will also have to prove that the people in need are not your friends and family.
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
It is pretty strange how language evolves. German has evolved quite a bit in the past century. A good demonstration of this is the two volume German-English dictionary. It was published in America during WW2, though it had been written in 1931 (you should see the copyright..."Published and Distributed in the Public Interest by Authority of the Alien Property Custodian under Lince No. A-548...". Anyhow, the Germanic script is very difficult to read. There are extra letters and signs that I did not learn in German class (Yes, I know the S-tet has only recently been abolished, and I still use it because I think it looks cool. But I am not talking about that character). And of course the words have changed meanings as well. I bet a lot of the change is due to the devastation the German culture has gone on during and since WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eszet
A disadvantage of the new rule is that various words should now be written with three 's'-s after eachother, with as most nasty example:
Schussserie instead of Schußserie (can you read the ß there? Incompatibility with some fonts is a bit of a disadvantage of this letter)
I solved the problem for myself by just writing this beautiful letter wherever I think it looks nice :)
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