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Slashback: ODF Wars, Duval Layoff, French DRM

Slashback tonight brings some corrections, clarifications, and updates to previous Slashdot stories, including a response from Mandriva's CEO, Apple responds to French DRM legislation, Microsoft possibly undermining ODF ISO approval, a more in-depth look at Fedora Core 5, more thoughts on the GPLv3, and Britannica strikes back at Wikipedia -- Read on for details.

Mandriva CEO responds to Duval Layoff. UltimaGuy writes "Duval has detailed his side of the story, 'Fired. Yes. Simply fired, for economical reasons, along with a few other ones. More than 7 years after I created Mandrake-Linux and then Mandrakesoft, the current boss of Mandriva "thanks me" and I'm leaving, sad, with my two-month salary indemnity standard package. It's difficult to accept that back in 1998 I created my job and the one of many other people, and that recently, on a February afternoon, Mandriva's CEO called to tell me that I was leaving.' Mandriva's CEO has responded, stating that 'Gael was not fired. This term would imply something wrong on his part, which was not the case. He was laid off.'"

Apple responds to French DRM legislation. Sardon writes "In the aftermath of France's move to force companies to open their DRM, Apple has shot back. Calling the proposed legislation "state-sponsored piracy," Apple complained loudly about the prospects of opening up their DRM, arguing that DRM interoperability tools would just increase piracy. However, as the article points out, DRM interoperability isn't likely to make a significant contribution to piracy, seeing as how P2P networks are already flooded. If the measure passes the French Senate, Apple may consider closing its music operations in France."

Microsoft possibly undermining ODF ISO approval. Andy Updegrove writes "If you haven't been paying attention to the odf(oasis) vs. xmlrs(microsoft) format wars, here is what is happening... Both formats need iso approval. This process is very thorough all complaints and gripes are heard and reviewed, which takes quite a bit of time. It is easy for voters to slow this process down considerably. And, our good friends Microsoft joined a very small subcommittee called 'V1 Text Processing: Office and Publishing Systems Interface.' It just so happens that this small subcommittee (six companies - including Microsoft) is the entity charged with reconciling the votes that are being cast in the ISO vote to adopt the OASIS OpenDocument Format. So, presumably, Microsoft is going to delay ODF's ISO approval in hopes of xmlrs getting approval first and being the chosen format in Europe."

A more in-depth look at Fedora Core 5. LinuxForums has posted a much more in-depth look at the install process and functionality of the new Fedora Core 5 release. From the article: "I have to say though: this distribution impressed me in a way that no other distribution did before. Some things should of course be improved, such as the automatic hardware detection or, as mentioned above, the menus. But apart from these little details I can confidently say that Fedora Core 5 is the best desktop GNU/Linux distribution available at the moment."

More thoughts on the GPLv3. Guttata writes "Forbes has an interview with Richard Stallman on the upcoming GPLv3, which touches on Linus' stance on keeping the kernel at GPLv2. The article also shows Stallman's take on DRM, especially in reference to areas such as TiVo." Relatedly Glyn Moody writes "The FSF's General Counsel, Eben Moglen, explains why there is no situation in which the brokenness or otherwise of the GPL is ever an issue. Thanks to copyright law, GPL violators are always in the wrong."

Britannica strikes back at Wikipedia. tiltowait writes "Remember that study published by Nature magazine which likened Wikipedia's reliability to that of Encyclopedia Britannica? Well, Britannica has released -- not corrections -- but a corporate response stating that 'Nature's research was invalid [...] almost everything about the Nature's investigation was wrong and misleading.' So then, is this just one more example of how refereed journals can't be trusted?"

274 comments

  1. Gael was not fired. by mctk · · Score: 2, Funny

    He was reassigned. He won't need to come into the office. He can do this job from home. Call it early retirement, but without pension.

    --
    Paul Grosfield - the quicker picker upper.
    1. Re:Gael was not fired. by Baseball_Fan · · Score: 3, Informative
      He was reassigned. He won't need to come into the office. He can do this job from home. Call it early retirement, but without pension.

      This reminds me of a movie Startup.Com (http://imdb.com/title/tt0256408/). It was about a couple guys who had an idea- to have a website that sold city services. Instead of going to the city to buy a license plate sticker, they sold it on-line. Want to pay a parking ticket? Do it at their website. Good idea.

      So, early on, one of the founders decides to cash in for a couple hundred thousand. His strategy was, be a founder but as soon as the company gets any VC money, that he will cash out. He also threatened the group with lawsuits if they did not pay him what he wanted. Everyone agreed, he was the prick who wanted money the first chance he could get it.

      Of the 2 founders left, one was a MBA type, and the other was the programmer. So the MBA type did all the dealings with VC, he designed the company structure, everything. While the company was making money hand over fist, everyone was happy. The MBA type even shelled out for a vacation for ALL his employees, over a 100.

      But the moment competition showed its ugly head, and profits were threatened, guess who got fired? The MBA type fired his best friend, the programmer. They talked about how they loved each other. I guess money is thicker than freindship.

      So, what is the smart thing to do? Be the guy who cashes out in under a year? Be the guy who designs and programs the system but gets screwed? Be the MBA type who manages the company?

      I think the company eventually went bankrupt. And the amazing things is, the programmer and the MBA type were able to remain friends.

      I would have kicked his ass...

    2. Re:Gael was not fired. by Sqwubbsy · · Score: 0

      I would have kicked his ass...

      You talk tough behind that keyboard...basking in the green glow.

    3. Re:Gael was not fired. by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      And the amazing things is, the programmer and the MBA type were able to remain friends.

      No necessarily.. The Firing may have been more friendly than it looked like on the surface. Perhaps the Programmer guy had done all the programming he wanted to do and wasn't that interested in being a manager.
      He might have also been able to see that the company was headed for the big red ink pool sooner or later. (despite what MBA types may thinks, most programmers can spin circles around them when it comes to crunching the numbers -- especially if they have the necessary inside data).

      If the MBA type gave the programmer a golden enough handshake with the 'firing', I can see the programmer being very happy about being 'fired', and then being able to sit back and watch the MBA captain the ship into Davy Jones' locker.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    4. Re:Gael was not fired. by Baseball_Fan · · Score: 1
      And the amazing things is, the programmer and the MBA type were able to remain friends.
      No necessarily.. The Firing may have been more friendly than it looked like on the surface. Perhaps the Programmer guy had done all the programming he wanted to do and wasn't that interested in being a manager.

      He might have also been able to see that the company was headed for the big red ink pool sooner or later. (despite what MBA types may thinks, most programmers can spin circles around them when it comes to crunching the numbers -- especially if they have the necessary inside data).

      If the MBA type gave the programmer a golden enough handshake with the 'firing', I can see the programmer being very happy about being 'fired', and then being able to sit back and watch the MBA captain the ship into Davy Jones' locker.

      You have to watch the movie, it was pretty good.

      The programmer did not want to be pushed out. There was tension because the MBA wanted more advanced programmers, and didn't want to have the lead programmer be the founder. The founder would tell the programming staff to do one thing, and the founding programmer would have the staff do something else.

      It all boiled over when the MBA type was set to fire the programmer, and told the programmer to take a few weeks off. The programmer was walking out the building and called his lawyer for advice. The lawyer said "Get back to work now! Don't leave, don't take a vacation, get back and don't agree to anything". To make a long story short, the MBA was able to push the founding programmer out. There was a scene of the programmer as he was leaving the building, and he was misty eyed and sad. The MBA went as far as changing all the locks. And when the programmer tried to return to his office, security threw him out of the building.

      The interesting thing is the timeline and when they cashed out.

      The founder who cashed out the first chance he had, ended up with more money than the founding programmer who wanted to stay with the company forever. That founder who cashed out tried to destroy the company, telling anyone who would listen that he would sue if they did not pay him a sevrence package he wanted. This was right before getting more VC, and the MBA type crumbled and paid. He could not risk losing VC. But the programmer, who was loyal and made it all happen, he got the least. He was pushed out when the MBA type wanted different programmers.

      It is a good flick to rent. Check it out.

    5. Re:Gael was not fired. by blank_vlad · · Score: 1

      Scum floats on top, and executives fit that definition well. We rarely if ever see top executives voluntarily taking paycuts themselves in times of financial hardship for a company, though they're often quick to let go the people lower down. Personal friendships with "underlings" invariably lose out to business considerations.

      The corporate structure may have economic and legal checks and balances but it sorely lacks ethical checks and balances. In this particular case I believe the guy who bailed as soon as the VC money came in made a more ethical decision by choosing not to participate in that structure. The programmer—while he has my full sympathy—should have foreseen the impending de-ethicalization (sorry) such a structure brings and cashed out as well.

      --
      Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.
    6. Re:Gael was not fired. by msobkow · · Score: 1

      Be the person who does what they feel is right, so that in the end you can still look back on what you did with the satisfaction/pride of knowing you didn't compromise yourself along the way.

      'cause you can't buy back your self respect.

      As to Geof, I wonder what we don't know. I'm a decent programmer, but I can be a major hassle to work with because I keep pulling in ideas from all over the place that aren't necessarily within budget. They're useful, but sometimes ill-timed. Managing someone like me can be a royal pain, and can lead to layoffs.

      Hopefully I've learned a few lessons about teamwork and coordination over the years, but even those structured concepts are still fluid and different at each company I worked with over the decades.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    7. Re:Gael was not fired. by msobkow · · Score: 1

      *g* I also have the occasional issue with detail. Gael's name was on display right in front of me and I still didn't get it right. Sorry, G. :)

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    8. Re:Gael was not fired. by Your+Anus · · Score: 1
      Dom Portwood: So um, Milton has been let go?

      Bob Slydell: Well just a second there, professor. We uh, we fixed the *glitch*. So he won't be receiving a paycheck anymore, so it will just work itself out naturally.

      --

      In the USA, we like stuff watered down, like beer, television, and freedom.
  2. Uhh by jb.hl.com · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm not exactly a cheerleader for the P2P-ftw free-the-culture anarcho-whatever shite that gets punted around here sometimes, but for Christ's sake what is Apple on? People have been using Hymn and the like for ages, and if they're stripping the DRM out of bought files for use on other players they are still buying from Apple and giving Apple money for the privilege. By definition, they wouldn't be going to P2P. If anything, if they up and leave France, all that will happen is that either P2P will become the only option for iPod owners or people will buy Creative/Archos/other PlaysForSure players and Napster or whatever will get their money. The only way this could become a win for piracy is if Apple makes it one.

    --
    By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
    1. Re:Uhh by BillyBlaze · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It used to be common to hear the argument, "Apple doesn't like DRM, they only use it because otherwise the popular music oligopoly wouldn't let them sell their music." Now we know that isn't true. Apple likes DRM just as much as the big music companies, just for a different reason - Apple wants iTunes purchases to work only on the iPod.

    2. Re:Uhh by tbo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      People have been using Hymn and the like for ages, and if they're stripping the DRM out of bought files for use on other players they are still buying from Apple and giving Apple money for the privilege

      Apple doesn't make much money (directly) from the iTunes Music Store--Steve Jobs himself has said this. Primarily, the purpose of the iTMS is to help sell iPods. What Apple doesn't want to happen is for people to buy able to buy music from iTunes for use on third-party players. If the French iTMS stops being a vehicle for selling iPods, it stops being useful for Apple. Moreover, the conversion utility will inevitably spread outside of France, and hurt iPod sales everywhere. It clearly is preferable from Apple's point of view to close the French iTMS, rather than allow such a conversion utility to become widespread.

      Oh, sure, people can use Hymn, but Joe User isn't that sophisticated. Also, AFAIK, the Hymn people haven't yet figured out how to crack iTunes v6 encryption, so it's not exactly a fully-functional solution.

    3. Re:Uhh by Krach42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      if they're stripping the DRM out of bought files for use on other players they are still buying from Apple and giving Apple money for the privilege. By definition, they wouldn't be going to P2P

      The issue isn't that Apple would still get money for the music. The issue is that Apple wouldn't have to sell an iPod for someone to listen to their iTunes Music Store music portably.

      Also, there's the issue that the music industry that grants allowances for Apple to sell their music would not stand for DRM-less music. Apple has already gone with the lightest DRM that they could, and still have the industry happy. If they had to allow for DRM work-arounds for France, then the Music Industry would pull support, and Apple iTMS is suddenly full of indy bands, and none of the popular music that sells tons of copies. (Which is the very definition of popular music. Whatever people are buying the most of.)

      --

      I am unamerican, and proud of it!
    4. Re:Uhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Also, AFAIK, the Hymn people haven't yet figured out how to crack iTunes v6 encryption, so it's not exactly a fully-functional solution.

      And they probably never will, considering that they have never actually cracked anything. The only person who has ever cracked FairPlay is DVD Jon. Seeing as how he now lives in the United States, the Hymn people are going to be waiting for a long time...
    5. Re:Uhh by alienw · · Score: 1

      I am as big an Apple fanboy as anyone else, but let's admit it, they are being douchebags here. DRM that is not proprietary would be a good thing for the entire industry. The iPod can stand on its own merits, it's not like it's hard to find music for 99 cents. In short, there is no good reason for the iTunes DRM to stay closed, and the law would be doing the right thing. And I really doubt that Apple is losing money on iTMS. There is zero overhead, and the margin is big enough to make plenty of cash.

      The real issue here is that the law will make it possible for iTunes competitors to sell tunes to iPod users. This is what Apple is really afraid of, since they get a nice solid revenue stream from the music subscription business. In short, it's a non-issue, and Apple is just afraid that the playing field will become level for the other competitors.

    6. Re:Uhh by shark72 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Apple doesn't make much money (directly) from the iTunes Music Store--Steve Jobs himself has said this."

      To clarify... Steve said that more than a year ago, when the iTMS was in startup mode. Analysts state that it's making money now.

      "Oh, sure, people can use Hymn, but Joe User isn't that sophisticated."

      Spot on. The GP used the "everybody is like Slashdotters" fallacy. I'm fairly non-technical. I could use Hymn or buy-burn-rip to get content from iTMS to my Creative player, but it's not worth the hassle of learning new software, or the effort. So, my next player will be an Apple. If interoperatability were legislated where I live, I would buy a Creative player, not an Apple player, next time. Simple as that.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    7. Re:Uhh by dangitman · · Score: 1
      If anything, if they up and leave France, all that will happen is that either P2P will become the only option for iPod owners or people will buy Creative/Archos/other PlaysForSure players and Napster or whatever will get their money.

      You need to think about this a little harder.

      If this law passes, it will force Napster and the others to open their format to the iPod. So, if Apple shut down iTunes Music Store in France - why would French people suddenly stop buying iPods in favor of other players? The Napster files would be forced by law to work on the iPod. So, why would people move from the iPod to other players?

      Not to mention that the record companies or Microsoft would probably force Napster and others to shut down in France, if it became legal to remove the DRM.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    8. Re:Uhh by CODiNE · · Score: 1

      The problem is not selling music without DRM... Apple could easily dump the DRM and sell straight AAC files. But then there's 2 problems, first of all, the music companies would never allow it. Secondly AAC has been avoided like "chocolate covered leprosy pills" by the competition. (Thank you whoever used that phrase here recently) So even IF Apple could sell AAC without DRM, everybody would STILL say they're not compatible with their players... getting where this is headed yet? The only way to make it work is by forming a committe and agreeing on a common DRM standard. Let's see here... Apple gets one chair on that committe... and ohhhh... a dozen or so PlaysForSure fans sit on that nice big round table. It's round so it's perfectly democratic. And they all vote ... 11 to 1 in support of using PlaysForSure as the standard format... only one vote for AAC, strange. Now everybody else has to do NOTHING... NOTHING at all to be complient, and Apple has to update all iPod firmwares, and in addition start selling WMA files on their music store instead of the AAC they started their business with.

      OR... everybody agrees to sell MP3's, which do you think is more likely? No, this isn't about evening the playing field, this is about punishing Apple, period. "Interoperable formats" is a codeword for "Destroy AAC". If Apple is allowed to keep their format, then they STILL have to add support for WMA, in order to respect subscription services. OR... add AAC subscription support.

      Right here is what I haven't figured out yet... AAC's with subscripton support, and a utility to convert to WMA and back. What's the catch? Everything else totally screws Apple, I'm missing something here.

      --
      Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
    9. Re:Uhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple could easily dump the DRM and sell straight AAC files.

      And lose the iPod lock'in. Never, Apple uses DRM to lock the store to the iPod.

      AAC's with subscripton support, and a utility to convert to WMA and back. What's the catch?

      Even IF Apple sold DRM-AAC with as subscriptions they would again lose iPod lock'in, as you could just change player and sign up for another service. Selling subscriptions without DRM, never gonna happen in iTunes store.

      The catch is that Apple locks the store to the iPod and the other way around. Ain't that hard to see if you take a step back and lok at the picture.

    10. Re:Uhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      DRM that is not proprietary would be a good thing for the entire industry.

      DRM, by its very nature, is proprietary. It cannot be otherwise.

    11. Re:Uhh by Haeleth · · Score: 1

      I really doubt that Apple is losing money on iTMS. There is zero overhead

      What, zero? What is this utopia Apple lives in, where bandwidth is free, servers generate their own electricity, and system administrators maintain complex online stores in their spare time as a hobby?

    12. Re:Uhh by Lars+T. · · Score: 1
      What you and Ars Technica fail to realize is that the French law will make things like Hymn illegal. Not only that, but the law also ultimately requires DRMed songs to play on all portable media players (and OSs) without loss of quality (no re-ripping). IOW unless you force all makers of MP3 players to actually make WMA-10/Fairplay players, this can't be done. IYOW: only non-DRMed music can be sold legally - I'll spell it out for you: no major music label will sell music online anymore.

      So what happens? People will have to use illegal means to get Music on their MP3 players (in case you forgot, ripping music from CDs will be illegal under that law).

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    13. Re:Uhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      buy the creative anyway.... You will be happier.... I have 3 converts under my belt already, and a 4th who desperately hopes his 4g ipod will break soon to justify buying a new player. All were former iPod owners, all now own the Zen Vision:M, none regret.

    14. Re:Uhh by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 1
      I'll spell it out for you: no major music label will sell music online anymore.

      That is ridiculously unlikely over the long term. Like it or not, they'd eventually have to stop pouting or face angry investors.

    15. Re:Uhh by mrchaotica · · Score: 1
      In short, there is no good reason for the iTunes DRM to stay closed
      Except that Apple would lose control over the "system as a whole" which allows for their famous integration and good user experience. They'd have a lot more trouble making deals to provide TV shows and whatnot, too.

      Personally, I believe that if France really cares about interoperability, they should just outlaw DRM altogether. Otherwise, Apple is doing nothing wrong -- others are free to sell music that can play on the iPod, simply by selling it unencumbered by DRM!
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    16. Re:Uhh by alienw · · Score: 1

      Are you going to count the costs of toilet paper in the corporate bathroom? Bandwidth, hosting, and server costs are entirely negligible. It costs less to run an enormous site than to keep one full-time employee around. They charge 1.00 per ~3MB download. The bandwidth for that costs what, 0.01 cents? Triple that for hardware expenses? You don't even need many employees to run this stuff. In fact, I doubt they have more than 30 or 40 people running that whole show. And they sell millions of songs per week. That's millions of bucks coming in. If they make 30 cents off each song, that's a ton of money.

    17. Re:Uhh by alienw · · Score: 1

      Note that you have not offered any arguments that support your position. Why does DRM have to necessarily be proprietary? There are many DRM protocols which are completely open. For example, the new HDTV digital cable standard. DRM simply means restricting the end-user's copying of content. As long as there is a well-defined protocol for doing that, it would not be proprietary. As in, every portable device could support a single standard for DRM-encrypted music.

    18. Re:Uhh by alienw · · Score: 1

      Except that Apple would lose control over the "system as a whole" which allows for their famous integration and good user experience.

      Why should Apple be able to control what the user does with his/her legally purchased music player? Nobody is stopping them from providing the experience, they would just have to open up their APIs to others. It's not like they'll be forced to close iTMS or somehow make it less seamless. Of course, if I don't care about the "experience", I would have the ability to purchase music from an iTunes competitor and use their DRM scheme. I've never thought that a dollar for a DRM-encumbered, FM-quality version of a song was a good deal (128 Kbps? Apple needs to get with the program).

    19. Re:Uhh by tbo · · Score: 1

      Analysts state that it's making money now.

      Thank you for the correction. Do you know if the iTMS revenue is comparable to iPod revenue, or are iPods still the main attraction for the shareholders?

      I would buy a Creative player, not an Apple player, next time.

      Out of curiousity, why? I have a 4GB iPod nano, and, before that, a 20 GB iPod (3rd generation), and it's hard for me to think up ways to improve them (OK, video on the nano would be fun, but not very practical). Are the Creative players cheaper / have more storage, or is there some other reason? I have no experience with Creative, which is why I'm asking.

    20. Re:Uhh by mrchaotica · · Score: 1
      Why should Apple be able to control what the user does with his/her legally purchased music player?
      It shouldn't. I was just pointing out Apple's perspective on all this.

      (Personally, I never have and never will pay for music from iTMS, and I'm eagerly awaiting for HYMN to catch up to the changes in iTunes 6 so that I can use it on the "free download of the week" songs.)
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    21. Re:Uhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're refering to HDCP... how on God's Green Earth is that not proprietary? Have you tried implementing it? Have you seen the agreement that you must sign in order to implement it? And have you looked into what legal penalties if you decide to make some changes "off-spec" to help your customer?

      Give me a fucking break. Maybe you should do some research before going on with this. DRM doesn't work unless it is slathered in huge legal controls and technical barriers. It is, by its very definition, proprietary. Your post is pure double-think.

    22. Re:Uhh by hobbit · · Score: 1
      Are you going to count the costs of toilet paper in the corporate bathroom?
      Of course, and if you're not, you obviously don't have the first clue about costing.

      You don't get a reliable music download service by putting a whole load of computers in a room and then leaving them to their own devices (pun intended).
      --
      "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato
    23. Re:Uhh by hobbit · · Score: 1
      I'll spell it out for you: no major music label will sell music online anymore.
      I'll spell it out for you -- they won't be major for long!
      --
      "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato
    24. Re:Uhh by Lars+T. · · Score: 1
      I obviously have to write everything out for you guys: in France.

      But all your pirating - ooops, sorry, getting the music you deserve for free - won't make them disappear and not go after you with ever growing force.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    25. Re:Uhh by alienw · · Score: 1

      Well, when I think "proprietary", I usually think of an interface/protocol/format that is used by one company and is not licensed to anyone else. Examples: game console discs; Sony MemoryStick; Apple FairPlay. If it can be licensed under reasonable and nondiscriminatory terms, it's not proprietary. Examples: DVD CSS, European satellite cards, CableCard, etc. Note that this does not mean it has to be free or has to have no strings attached. Obviously, you cannot violate specifications. That is true of any standard -- almost all of them are licensed with the requirement of fully complying with it. Even the GNU GPL has a clause that prohibits you from modifying its terms.

    26. Re:Uhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, when I think "proprietary"

      Well, if you redefine what proprietary means to suit your argument, then there's no problem with saying DRM doesn't have to be proprietary. Problem solved. It's just a shame it is so intellectually bankrupt.

      Even the GNU GPL has a clause that prohibits you from modifying its terms.

      Completely irrelevant -- it's hard to know what point you are making here. You seem to be desperately searching for a response and dragging up any old rubbish. For a start: the GPL isn't in the same category as HDCP -- it's not a contract for a start. It doesn't stop you modifying the source code, and it does not specify how you use the software itself. Like I said, do some research.

    27. Re:Uhh by alienw · · Score: 1

      Well, if you redefine what proprietary means to suit your argument, then there's no problem with saying DRM doesn't have to be proprietary. Problem solved. It's just a shame it is so intellectually bankrupt.

      That is the most common definition of the word "proprietary" when talking about a standard. I'm not redefining anything here. There are very few standards that are completely free. There are some that are royalty-free with no strings attached, but you have to pay thousands of dollars for each copy of the specification. Most are not that way.

      By your definition, formats like MP3, MPEG-4, and AAC are proprietary. All of them are covered by patents, and require licensing. However, they are not generally considered proprietary, because licenses are available to anyone willing to pay the appropriate fees and royalties. Many companies have done that, and there is plenty of competition.

      For a start: the GPL isn't in the same category as HDCP -- it's not a contract for a start.

      The GPL is most certainly a contract. Any software license is a contract between the copyright owner and the licensee. It most certainly specifies how you can and cannot use the software. For example, linking proprietary code to GPL code is prohibited. Removing the copyright notices is prohibited. You may not incorporate GPL code into a proprietary codebase. You are prohibited from changing the terms of the GPL. You are prohibited from relicensing the code. These prohibitions are necessary to enforce the integrity of the GPL.

      Like I said, do some research.

      I think you need to do some first. How about starting with this?

    28. Re:Uhh by hobbit · · Score: 1

      Ever-growing force! Of course! Why didn't I think of that?! Next time I play whack-a-mole, I'll top the high score table for sure.

      --
      "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato
  3. French pirate babes by babbling · · Score: 4, Funny

    Ho ho ho. "State sponsored piracy!" I like it. It has a nice ring to it. A bit like "state sponsored terrorism". Those bastard French people are trying to take away our freedom by taking restrictions out of DRM! Oh, wait...

    Yes, naughty little French pirates. They need to be punished. They need to know what it feels like. I implore all Slashdotters to head over to Google Video and pirate some Alizee music videos. For those of you who have been living under a rock for the past couple of years, Alizee is a hot French babe... uhh, I mean, PIRATE!

    1. Re:French pirate babes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Since it is stae sponsored wouldn't they be music-privateers?

    2. Re:French pirate babes by From+A+Far+Away+Land · · Score: 1

      They used the wrong term. State sponsored pirates are called Buckaneers. At least that's what I've learned they were, someone feel free to beat me over the head with Wikipedia.

    3. Re:French pirate babes by babbling · · Score: 1

      Phwoar. Hot French buckaneer Alizee!! For some reason, putting it in those terms does even more for me than when it was "French pirate babe Alizee!"

      Good work! :-)

    4. Re:French pirate babes by Exaton · · Score: 5, Informative
      Take this video in particular, for example. Gotta have some reason to love France... And my God guys, you should understand the lyrics... It's all about her relaxing in a bubble bath, her soft skin, etc. (not kidding). See that "2" logo in the top right ? That's France 2, the most important public channel (and in this country the public channels are neck to neck with the private ones for popularity). Still not kidding.

      Now for the less jowful news. I happen to live in France, as you might have gathered, and I'm a bit surprised by the international analysis of the DADVSI law (since that's it name) that indeed got through Parliament tuesday evening.

      The fact is that the government has :

      • legalized DRM,
      • set up a standard parking-ticket style fine for downloading pirated stuff and another for making content available to others (38 and 150 euros respectively, about 45 and 180 USD),
      • decided that P2P software makers were liable to pay 300'000 euros and spend 3 years in prison,
      • given up on the "monthly subscription to be allowed to download legally" deal, under pressure from the local RIAA associates that forced a vast majority of artists to back them,
      • completely forbidden copying of a DVD, even as a personal backup,
      • and simply required that DRM'd files be interoperable, which is where Apple's beef is.

      I'm very flattered by all the positive light this is being shown in internationally, it's not every day the world has nice things to say about this country, but I must point out that IT enthusiasts over here are miserably decrying this law, and would probably be in the streets themselves if they weren't already chocablock with students demonstrating :-(
    5. Re:French pirate babes by strider44 · · Score: 1

      I believe the correct word is "Privateer". Yes like the wing commander game.

    6. Re:French pirate babes by martalli · · Score: 1

      Someone posts a link to a video of a hot girl and all anyone can mention is DRM?! I might note that Alizee's father is a computer scientist. So all ya nerds out there might have a leg up on her - at least you might chat her Dad up more than the usual hunks on her arm =).

    7. Re:French pirate babes by kwark · · Score: 1

      "but I must point out that IT enthusiasts over here are miserably decrying this law, and would probably be in the streets themselves if they weren't already chocablock with students demonstrating :-("

      I just don't get it why there never was any major movement against the EUCD like the opposition to the recent efforts to harmonize european patent laws.

      Most countries of the EU and EFTA (atleast of the "old" 15) have already adapted their "copyright laws" to incorporate the EUCD. It's only in the news after it is passed and after people realize the impact.

    8. Re:French pirate babes by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      set up a standard parking-ticket style fine for downloading pirated stuff and another for making content available to others (38 and 150 euros respectively, about 45 and 180 USD),

      This is something I've been suggesting for a long time.

      I demand the French government pays me 150 euros for infgringing my copyright:)

    9. Re:French pirate babes by LordVader717 · · Score: 1

      I've always known them as corsairs, but there are probably multiple synonyms.

    10. Re:French pirate babes by McDutchie · · Score: 1

      What is so special about that video? It's nothing compared to good-old-America Christina Aguilera (e.g. Dirrty ).

    11. Re:French pirate babes by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      I can say without any doubt that there is nothing positive about any law that would imprison a person or even lay a fine for writing software just because it can be used in a way that offends powerful people and groups. It would be nice if something like this could only happen in France, but unfortunately the concept is catching on worldwide. If this proposition is popular amongst the masses, either they are ignorant or they are fascists...or both.

      --
      What?
    12. Re:French pirate babes by Exaton · · Score: 1

      Of course, far from me to deny that ! (If maybe a touch more class where Alizee is concerned ?)

      But the question is, in the US, would it be aired on a saturday evening prime-time show, and by a public channel to boot ? ;-)

      The matter is not that of the artistic / moral pool. The matter is that of retrograde "acceptable to the community" laws instituted in... some countries / states.

    13. Re:French pirate babes by slughead · · Score: 1

      Those bastard French people are trying to take away our freedom by taking restrictions out of DRM!

      DRM is a right of companies. If you make DRM illegal, you're taking away liberty (I use that term because "freedom" is no longer correctly associated with it).

      It's laws that make breaking DRM a crime that take away liberty, NOT DRM. After you buy something, being able to do what you want with it legally is a liberty (it's called personal property). However, if it's HARD or impossible to do it, that's YOUR problem and you shouldn't have bought a product with DRM in it.

      For instance, building a mote around your house on your land is a liberty. Not having the man-power to do so has nothing to do with liberty.

      Similarly, breaking DRM is a liberty. Not being able to do so also has nothing to do with your liberty.

      Again, I'm using the term "liberty" because it refers to a specific concept. See THIS video.

      Oh, I also use it because I'm a libertarian.. but that's neither here nor there. As a libertarian, I think the DMCA and similar laws should be repealed. However, I also would strongly dissapprove of a law like the french one mentioned in TFA instituted in the US.

      If I remember correctly, the French government is setup the reverse of ours: The liberty the French enjoy are considered a gift from the government, as they're technically a police state. In this country, the liberties the government takes away is usually against our constitution. Read it sometime, it doesn't say you have any liberty, it says that the government isn't allowed to TAKE your liberty.

    14. Re:French pirate babes by Fred_A · · Score: 1

      There are indeed a few problems with the law as it stands.

      The main points are there (in French) for those interested.

      Here is a quick and dirty translation w/ my comments (incomplete, learn French and read the legal text for the full thing) :

      Authors (of media contents) can choose how they are paid and can choose to make their work freely available (I don't think this is really new under French law although it's probably the first time it's really spelled out)

      DRM is authorised. *However*, it cannot be implemented if the consequence is the lack of interoperability. A (I don't know what the eauivalent would be, make it a high end court) court can force any software editor to disclose the information necessary for interoperability.

      Furthemore, any person wanting to grab data is authorised to decompile code to get at the content.

      The only medium for which private copies cannot be limited are televised videos. For other medias, mediators are to be consulted (whatever that means --and whoever they are, an article of the law specifies this, some of them are lawyers...).

      Creating a system designed to publish (i.e. make available to the general public) copyrighted data (not meant to be disseminated in this way) can be punished by at the most 3 years in prison and a 300 K €s fine. Likewise for any person who knowledgeably incites (including through advertising) using such a service (or software).
      (however this does not apply to software designed for collaborative work, research or exchange of files or "objects" that are copyright free)

      -----------

      Mostly this law is quite complex, there's way more to to it than what I posted above and notably if you're poking around for interoperability reasons (like to get your FOSS software to read some kind of crappy DRM) you're presumably in the clear.

      DISCLAIMER : I am French. I am *not* a lawyer. I am not even remotely associated with anything legal. I'm not even in the same arrondissement as the Palais de Justice or the Chambre des Députés
      If you take anything in this post seriously, you're a bloody fool.

      Disclaimer part 2 : I've had a lot of wine (hey, I'm French) before I wrote this, so it's full of typos and probably all wrong. So there.

      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    15. Re:French pirate babes by Upphew · · Score: 0

      One is Hot and another is Ho?

  4. Microsoft shoots self in foot by From+A+Far+Away+Land · · Score: 1

    MS is in danger of becoming the company on the outside looking in. Their document formats have been a nightmare to tech support and average people over the years, and with an open ISO standard looming in the next years, every office product under the sun will be able to read everything else, except perhaps Microsoft's. What companies are going to pay $70+/computer to have Office Vista, when they can have the same functionality and better interoperability with everyone else? North America won't flip to Open Document right away because of Microsoft's influence over both the Canadian and American governments, but Europe will turn as Brazil has, and every other location will follow.
    I don't want Canada to be stuck in the digital darkage created by Microsoft and proprietary document format wars. I'm going to be pressuring my MP to require government offices to convert to Open Document when it becomes an ISO standard.

    1. Re:Microsoft shoots self in foot by moochfish · · Score: 1

      Your last sentence is exactly what MS is going to stall or prevent at all costs. MS is good at this game. Don't be surprised if they manage to stall ODF all the way until the next, NEXT version of Office is out.

    2. Re:Microsoft shoots self in foot by rubies · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The same thing will happen with government/ISO sponsored document formats as happened with the OSI network stack: We'll all wasted shiploads of time mucking around trying it out and everybody ended up using TCP/IP anyway. The "winning" document format will continue to be the one that's used by default by the most popular word processor: Word.

    3. Re:Microsoft shoots self in foot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      "North America won't flip to Open Document right away because of Microsoft's influence over both the Canadian and American governments,"

      The reality is that Microsoft could care less about document formats. In the past they have just embraced another companies formats then extended their own once it is hacked by someone. Vista will be the first big stab at Adobe and the open pdf Acrobat format, thus we will see MS office doing pdf for the first time. You can bet that they will try their best to make pdf go away. What they are counting on is an upsurge in powerpoint xml formated web documents. Just for example my wife attended a Pacs (medical imaging) conference in San Antonio last week. The powerpoint handout cd she came home with is only readable with = It is the business of Microsoft to outdate formats as soon as possible. Their future depends upon deprecating software and even their own formats. Just think of it this way, if someone with Office 97 can read todays PP crap how can MS sell new versions of Office. They only get away with it because they have enough pull in government to get away with economic terrorism. Adobe is firmly in their sights, within the next 5 years they will go away the same as Corel. In about 3 years the patents on font anti-aliasing software will run out, by then Adobe will be only a skeleton of what it once was, the most innovative software company in the world! I would not be too supprised to see a MS end run to take over Adobe in the next two years.

    4. Re:Microsoft shoots self in foot by schoett · · Score: 1

      Viewed differently, TCP/IP had the free BSD/Unix implementation available, whereas ISO/OSI implementations tended to be humongous and/or proprietary. For ODF, we have at least one free implementation, plus commitment of various other vendors, whereas there is only one proprietary implementation of the supposed alternative.

  5. Peer review? by Bifurcati · · Score: 1
    I'd be a little more convinced by Brittanica's argument if they'd submitted it as a letter to the editor or some other peer reviewed article, either to Nature or somewhere else. Why should we believe their claims carry more weight than those written in Nature? Admittedly, they do make some good points, if they're true, but how do I know? And their demands for a retraction are rather bold - research is as research does, and if someone can correct it - then publish or perish.

    On a minor note, they make a big deal of the fact that Wiki has "a third more errors", and how this is very significant. But I'm not convinced that this is particularly statistically significant in the scheme of things - both have very small numbers of errors, and indeed, Brittanica has at least some errors (they can't argue with that) and so both are important points, worth mentioning by the article.

    1. Re:Peer review? by SiliconEntity · · Score: 1

      Plus, what if Wikipedia went through all of the errors Nature found and asked the original authors of the text whether they were really mistaken? I'll bet a lot of them would "stand by their original statements".

      I do think Nature should release all of the comments and criticisms and let people judge for themselves which ones are more serious.

    2. Re:Peer review? by ratsnapple+tea · · Score: 1

      In the same breath, though, they point out that "Even if Wikipedia were 'only' a third more inaccurate than Britannica, this would be a large difference, especially in a study that focused exclusively on factual accuracy, disregarding other important
      properties of encyclopedias, such as the organization of information, the quality of writing, and the readability of the articles." These arguments--organization, quality, readability--seem the strongest, to me, in favor of an encyclopedia with strong editorial control, and these are the precise reasons I avoid consulting Wikipedia unless faced with no alternative (not that I turn to Britannica).

      Assuming the rest of what Britannica has to say is true--not a big leap of faith, I think, since their reputation is really all they have--they make a very strong case that Nature's study was terribly flawed. Some of their claims should be independently verifiable, like that some of Nature's representation of Britannica text was actually a poor pastiche of various Britannica sources, stiched together (badly) by Nature's editors. Very disturbing stuff. I think the editors of Nature are going to have to respond to these claims, one way or another.

    3. Re:Peer review? by Gorshkov · · Score: 1

      I think it's more accurate to say that wikki has 1/3 more errors that they're aware of

      THe thing I think you should be taking from this article is that a) from what little britanica DOES have to go on (what with nature not releasing the data - pretty well unheard of in the peer-reviewed world), and b) the discovery that Nature was editing the britannica articles themselves, that any and all conclusions reached by the survey are invalid ..... or more corectly, cannot be *considered* to be valid.

      Is 1/3 more errors than .003 errors per hundred articles (numbers pulled from out of a hat) significant? I doubt it.

      but with THAT little detail forthcoming from Nature, I'm willing to be there was a fair bit of cherry picking, and the entire exercise was simply a publiciy ploy.

      We'll ignore how counter-intuitive it is that an unreviewed publication, that anybody can edit, is more accurate than a publication that has been reviewed, refined, re-edited, and published by acknowledged experts over the course of many, many years.

      One of these days, I'm gonna go and look up Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein et al and see just how slanted those articles are, one way or another ... and I'd fully expect them to be fully slanted the other way the next week :-)

    4. Re:Peer review? by Brushen · · Score: 1
      I could not help but notice how they commented on Mendeleev's article:

      Reviewer:

      Declaring him the 17th child is either incorrect or misleading. He is the 13th surviving child of 17 total.

      Britannica:

      We disagree with the reviewer's implication that there is full agreement that Mendeleyev was the 13th surviving child. Our new article makes it clear that scholars are not uniform in their views on whether Mendeleyev was the 13th or 14th surviving child.

      If you were thinking while you read this, you would notice this was simply a clever way of saying "We were wrong," while throwing some blame back to Nature itself.

      ---

      Interestingly, Wikipedia originally stated he was the 14th surviving child. Not only did Wikipedia "correct" this instantly so that it read as "13th" for some time after the study had first been published, but at the end of January, on the talk page, someone independently noted that sources were in conflict over whether he was the 13th or 14th surviving child on the talk page and corrected in the article about two months before Britannica's recent response.

      Britannica's error, saying he was the 17th surviving child, may have resulted from a typographical error within a New York Times article it used as a source.

    5. Re:Peer review? by dogwelder99 · · Score: 1
      I agree Britannica makes some good points against the Nature study, but they're extremely slanted to try to show "Britannica was far more accurate than Wikipedia". They fail to mention that many of the same types of errors are counted against Wikipedia -- possibly more. Compare the lists of errors for yourself: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v438/n7070/ex tref/438900a-s1.doc

      The Wikipedia error list is full of many of the same objections over grammar, obscure details that the reviewer thought should be included, matters that could be considered opinion, etc. Compare the lists for the Paul Dirac or Stephen Wolfram articles, or the details on discussing motivation for the Nobel Prize Committee. Some of the "errors" logged against Wikipedia are truly silly:

      Pythagoras' Theorem Reviewer: Geoff Smith, Senior Lecturer in Mathematics at the University of Bath, UK.

      1. "This means that knowing the lengths of two sides of a right triangle is enough to calculate the length of the third - something unique to right triangles.'' is misleading. If you know two sides of a triangle and the included angle then you can always calculate the length of the third side.

      Granted, there are some real questions about methodology here, but Britannica loses a lot of credibility trying to slant the whole thing as a one-sided attack on them.

    6. Re:Peer review? by westlake · · Score: 1
      These arguments--organization, quality, readability--seem the strongest, to me, in favor of an encyclopedia with strong editorial control

      The Britannica's editors have had 200 years to think about the organization of knowledge and were doing some very interesting things long before the computer.

    7. Re:Peer review? by dgatwood · · Score: 1
      Britannica isn't necessarily wrong here. He may still well have been the 17th child and still been only the 13th or 14th to survive. If Britannica had said he was the 17th surviving child, that would be wrong. However, all that is required for both statements to be correct would be for three or four younger siblings to die during childbirth.

      Of course, if he wasn't the last surviving child, Britannica is wrong.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  6. Fired by Audent · · Score: 2, Insightful

    let go...
    relieved of command...
    disestablished...
    made redundant...
    surplus to requirements...

    it all amounts to the same thing at the end of the day: Yer Outta Here.

    --
    I am a leaf on the wind
    1. Re:Fired by tinkerghost · · Score: 1

      Freed to Investigate Rewarding Employment Diversity

  7. PJ from Groklaw talks about ODF by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

    http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=200603211 63230297

    The www.consortiuminfo.org blog links to her, but I know some /.'ers won't RTFA, but maybe Grok Law will get their attention.

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
    1. Re:PJ from Groklaw talks about ODF by msobkow · · Score: 1

      Condsider another aspect of the situation.

      Both tool/product families exist. Both standards are functional within their domain.

      How does it really matter which is approved first? Since when does government or big business shift gears just because a standard is finally approved?

      Standard are a formal document for defining future cross-platform compatability. They're not the same thing as owning a market. XML standards are based 90% or more on old technologies that are simply being interfaced, not new ideas. Unless those old technologies are already patented, the XML interface should be standardized.

      And don't forget -- standards aren't set in stone. They get updated and revised as new features and ideas come out and get integrated. Some day you might even find a number of "competing" standards so similar that it's just syntactic sugar to switch between them.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    2. Re:PJ from Groklaw talks about ODF by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      As well, we could form our own "xmlrs Delay^WInvestigation Group"...

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    3. Re:PJ from Groklaw talks about ODF by jbrax · · Score: 1

      > Since when does government or big business shift gears
      > just because a standard is finally approved?"

      From the article:
      it is important that ODF be adopted in the accredited world by ISO, because some governments (such as those in Europe) that are otherwise favorably disposed towards using ODF are required to use ISO-approved standards.

  8. Laid off!? by Spazmania · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Gael was not fired. He was laid off.

    I'm sorry but the founder is not laid off. He quits if he tires of the company's direction or he's fired if he becomes an obstacle but he's not laid off. It's a question of morale: If the founder himself is of so little value that he can be laid off then every other employee is worthless too. When your employer shows they don't value your presence its past time to jump ship.

    --
    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    1. Re:Laid off!? by XaXXon · · Score: 1, Informative

      This is an irrational statement. Anyone who is in the position to be fired can be laid off. "Founder" doesn't mean jack once you start giving out bits of your company to other people. This puts you in a position where you aren't responsible for making the decisions.

      If the people in those positions decide that you are a drain to the company (too high a salary, not enough work), then you are laid off.

      There's no morale question here. The company decided that he wasn't able to provide value, but he hadn't done anything wrong. That's called being laid off. It has nothing to do with the other employees.

      If you want to stay Mr. Big-and-Powerful, don't sell off shares of your company and you won't have to worry about being laid off.

    2. Re:Laid off!? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Well, whatever the case, the Mandriva still stucks, and only a really fucking moronic company would come up with such a severely idiotic name. He's better off going somewhere else and leaving these pricks to sink into inanity.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:Laid off!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He is better off leaving those jackalopes. I was in a similar situation. I didn't start a company, but was an early employee. I was very dedicated to the cause, but with a recent management change, I was beginning to question what I was doing there. I was laid off, and could have scrambled and gotten a new position in a different group, but why? I feel better letting them let me go. A nice long vacation, and I get to collect unemployment. There are plenty of jobs for competent people these days. Move on!

    4. Re:Laid off!? by Spazmania · · Score: 1

      Got news for you: Morale is not a rational thing. Its a question of hope. Folks like to believe that good things are in store for them if they work hard and do a good job. A layoff is the single most capricious thing you can do to an employee. Its deadly to morale in any form.

      But that misses the point of my original post which is this: you don't lay off the founder. It just isn't done. The founder is part of the corporate story, the history you tell the customers. You know, marketing. Sacking him (or laying him off) looks incredibly bad; its a serious breach in the corporate continuity.

      No single employee costs so much that you can't keep him on the payroll. You only ask the founder to leave if he's getting in the way and after a few private discussions he's still getting in the way and distracting the other employees from the corporate focus. That's not a lay-off. That's fired for cause.

      IMHO, the CEO of Mandriva is lying though his teeth when he says, "Its just a lay-off."

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    5. Re:Laid off!? by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      Maybe he'll start a whole new distro using slightly-hacked versions of the GPL'ed *drake setup tools, but using .deb rather than .rpm as a package format. Mandrake was always let down by not having a big enough package repository, and it ended up diverging too far from Red Hat to use their RPMs.

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    6. Re:Laid off!? by db32 · · Score: 1

      I think you misread morale. He isn't saying moral (judgement of goodness or badness) he is saying morale (happiness or sadness, espre de corp) And it absolutely is a morale issue. If you "lay off" the founder you really do set yourself up to have a huge negative trend in morale.

      --
      The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
  9. Attribution and GPL by QuantumG · · Score: 0

    Ever notice how the GPL doesn't say that anyone who uses GPL code must attribute the creators of that code? Ever notice how the LICENSE file distributed along with binaries of GPL programs typically doesn't have the name of the creators in it? Consider this, is it legal to remove someone's name from a GPL work? Not from the copyright declaration on the top of the source files.. that's obviously unlawful. But what about from the About box or the documentation? There's nothing in the GPL which prevents these kinds of modifications. Seems like a pretty big ommission. After all, if users of software are not guarenteed to know who the original copyright holder is they have no recourse if the distributer of the work refuses to hand over source code. Only the copyright holder can force the distributer to follow the license. If the distributer has stripped the software of its original name, made significant modifications and removed attribution to the original creators then, in practice, they cannot be forced to give up those modifications when they distribute the work in binary form as the users don't know who the copyright holders are. Also note that there's nothing in GPLv3 that addresses this. It's ironic really, as almost all BSD-style licenses include this:

    Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.

    So the length of the GPL compared to BSD-style licenses seems to be working against it.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
    1. Re:Attribution and GPL by xenocide2 · · Score: 1

      An interesting theory, but most of the actual BSD software has been released from that clause. It's also not very specific; I could for example, bury the fact that my software uses a tweaked version of your software (perhaps altering some identifying strings) very deep in some obscure documentation, and you'd never even know that I used it unless someone takes the time to find and dig through that list of credits.

      --
      I Browse at +4 Flamebait

      Open Source Sysadmin

    2. Re:Attribution and GPL by faboo · · Score: 2, Informative

      attribution is intentionally left out of the GPL. in fact, the FSF's beef with the BSD license was the "advertising clause" - the attribution requirement.

      the idea is this: on any given free software project, there may be work included from hundreds of authors. each of those hundreds of pieces has its own copyright controlled by a different person (the original author of that piece of the code). if the GPL required attribution (as the BSD license used to), a project would need to keep track of every contributor - every single one - in perpetuity.

      for most projects, that's fine. most projects only have a handful of authors over their lifespan. but the kernel, for instance, probably has (copyrighted) contributions from thousands of people. were attribution required, a list of all of those thousands of people would need to accompany every binary and source copy of the kernel.

      the FSF considers this a problem that is, in the general case, intractable, and attribution therefore impractical (and therefore a hinderance to modification and redistribution).

      there may be other reasons, obviously, but that's the one I remember.

    3. Re:Attribution and GPL by kryptkpr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've moderated in this thread already, but I just have to respond to this.

      I think it's sort of implied that when you license code under the GPL, you have set it "free". What this means is that the code is no longer really yours, it belongs to the collective pool of free software, from which anyone may draw freely.

      It's true that there are some bad people out there who modify free software and re-sell it, but the problem is not them. It's is the people who have never heard of free software who are buying it. Why would you buy a copy of OpenOffice, or an office suite that looks exactly like it but is called something else?

      The solution here is user education, not a tightening of the license..

      --
      DJ kRYPT's Free MP3s!
    4. Re:Attribution and GPL by GlassHeart · · Score: 2, Informative
      I think it's sort of implied that when you license code under the GPL, you have set it "free". What this means is that the code is no longer really yours, it belongs to the collective pool of free software, from which anyone may draw freely.

      No, you still retain copyright and ownership. That means if a company approaches you and says they'll pay you some money in exchange for not having to open source their product based on your original code, you are free to make that deal. No other person who got the code via GPL has this right.

    5. Re:Attribution and GPL by DrXym · · Score: 1
      Why would you buy a copy of OpenOffice, or an office suite that looks exactly like it but is called something else?

      StarOffice comes with a whole bunch of clipart, templates, labels, a level of support and has been QA'd to death. But otherwise it looks and feels just like OpenOffice. I guess that the extra bits make it look a lot more attractive to OEMs or corporates looking to use it. The downside is all that rigorous QA doesn't come for free so the release cycles lag behind the more freewheeling open source version.

      The same happened with Netscape branded browser. The NS version (with the exception of v8) was *always* more stable than the Mozilla it came from thanks to extra QA and was better thanks to useful goodies like a spellchecker. The flipside was Mozilla was such a fast moving target that there often compelling reasons to use the latest Mozilla just to get the speed / memory improvements.

    6. Re:Attribution and GPL by m50d · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure GPL says all the copyright notices must be preserved - which includes those in the about box or similar.

      --
      I am trolling
  10. Troubling statement from RMS.... by Swift+Kick · · Score: 5, Insightful

    After reading the RMS interview with Forbes, what really stuck out was the following question and his reply:

    Would it be ethical to steal lines of unfree code from companies like Microsoft and Oracle and use them to create a "free" version of that program?

    It would not be unethical, but it would not really work, since if Oracle ever found out, it would be able to suppress the use of that free software. The reason for my conclusion is that making a program proprietary is wrong. To liberate the code, if it is possible, would not be theft, any more than freeing a slave is theft (which is what the slave owner would surely call it).


    Am I the only one that sees this statement as a dangerous precedent? I mean, for all intents and purposes, RMS feels that 'stealing' copyrighted code is justifiable, if it's done with the intent to "liberate it".

    Maybe you might consider this a trolling or a flame, but I think that it is quotes such as these that may end up bringing the most amount of trouble for the RMS crowd... I think the man is losing touch with reality, and approaching a point where zealotry is clowding his judgment to a dangerous level. How can we convince businesses that using the GPL and open source is a GOOOD THING if one of the main characters is in effect condoning IP theft if done for the 'right reasons'?

    --
    "We'll need 2000 crickets, 4 cans of Easy Cheese, and the fluid from 18 glowsticks for this plan to work...." - ph0n1c
    1. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by aralin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you don't consider making code proprietary to be ethical, you clearly cannot consider liberating the code to be unethical. But if you noticed, he is still aware, that although he considers it ethical, it is illegal and thus it should not be done. The comment is perfectly in check with his moral views and he could not in a clear conscience make any other statement. The fact that your moral values are different does not make him lunatic. You could call Christians lunatics, just because they hold different moral values. Not that some people wouldn't, but that does not make it right. Stop complaining and show some respect for man that has firm moral believes and stands up and speaks out for them. You might disagree, but do so respectfully.

      --
      If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
    2. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by truthsearch · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But, conversely, how can one claim to believe in something if they don't follow it through to its logical conclusions? What if 100 years from now the concept of intellectual property is long gone and considered archaic. We'd consider RMS's statement logical.

      RMS considers the concept of intellectual property immoral. Therefore "freeing" code is a perfectly appropriate action (to him). I'd rather see people stand by their beliefs than bend for practical reasons.

    3. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by ewhac · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Am I the only one that sees this statement as a dangerous precedent? I mean, for all intents and purposes, RMS feels that 'stealing' copyrighted code is justifiable, if it's done with the intent to "liberate it".

      It's not a "dangerous precedent," as you call it; merely the inevitable conclusion one reaches if you subscribe to the same axioms as RMS.

      In the common (both senses of the word) world view, taking code written by someone else and redistributing it is considered bad; a violation of the rights of the code's creator. But in RMS's world view -- which, it is important to understand, has some very different basic principles -- writing code and failing to release it is bad; the redistribution of the code is therefore merely a correction to the selfish author's "crime" of not releasing it.

      We've all seen the abuses that the monopoly of copyright has enabled, and it appears to be getting worse. So I personally tend to hew more closely to RMS's views. However, as stated, RMS's views certainly seem very extreme -- more extreme than many are willing to adopt wholesale -- and I wonder if there's any further nuance to RMS's views that aren't getting articulated well. Such as: If redistributing the code of another author is not unethical, what about redistributing the code of another author without any attribution to said author? What about claiming yourself as the author?

      It seems to me that RMS's principle "copying is not theft" is part of a complete set of ethical principles which, taken together, may very well make good sense (the man is no dummy). But we're only shown but one of those principles and, taken alone, it causes people to go, "Wha...?" But this is entirely supposition on my part, and I would not presume to put words in the man's mouth...

      Schwab

    4. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by ldj · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Why should the words and actions of the author of a document affect my opinion of the document? I agree that it's hard to not be biased by the author's personality and/or history. But really, a document should be judged on its own merits.

      For example, I've read that many of the great scientists and mathematicians in history were pretty big jerks. But that doesn't mean I'm going to shrug off the results of their work. Likewise, I'm sure that some of the U.S. Founding Fathers had personalities and at least some beliefs that I wouldn't care for. But that doesn't mean that I don't support the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution.

      If an individual or company found the GPL useful without knowing anything about the authors, why would they change their mind after learning about the authors? It's not like everytime someone uses the GPL, RMS gets a check. :)

      --
      Open Source: I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
    5. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by jmv · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How can we convince businesses that using the GPL and open source is a GOOOD THING if one of the main characters is in effect condoning IP theft if done for the 'right reasons'?

      I hope you make the difference between ethical and legal. RMS never said it was legal or that peopel should to it (he specifically says it wouldn't work). He simply things it would be ethical if allowed by law. It just shows how the sense of ethics is different between people. Nothing to see here.

      Oh, and there's no such thing as "IP theft", no matter what big copyright holders tell you. It's simply called copyright infringement. It's illegal, but it's not theft. The closest I can think of "IP theft" is doing some kind of fraud to steel copyright/patent titles from someone.

    6. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Hairy1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree. The comparision of source code to slaves is terrible. We should be fighting for freedoms of people, not source code. Open Source brings freedom to developers, allows them to build their own culture not owned by corporations. We have a strong moral sense that people should be free to share if they choose. What I strongly disagree with is Stallmans misguided and unethical attitude to having the right to use the work of others even if its against their will.

    7. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by ratsnapple+tea · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and you forgot to mention there's no such thing as "identity theft," either. And don't even get me started on "theft of services." What we need is an Académie Anglaise to straighten this whole mess out.

    8. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by heinousjay · · Score: 1

      No one is obligated to respect anyone or anything. That's point one.

      Point two: the GP was respectful, just incredulous. That's a fairly common reaction when one sees just how extreme RMS is in his views.

      If you want a parallel, then consider me calling for you to respect the views of the people who bombed abortion clinics. Morally, it's the same idea (and I am not equating open source with killing people. Please don't draw that conclusion) because it's just people taking their ethics to the logical conclusion.

      --
      Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
    9. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Jastiv · · Score: 0

      Legality does not equal morality. Anyone who has taken some history lessons should know this. Copyright is not that old. It does not predate the printing press. Unfortunately, sometimes people become so entrenched in the current reality, that they stop seeing the possibilities. Businesses are not the only ones who need convincing, users who make unauthorized copies of proprietary copyrighted works also need to be convinced. Probably more so since they make up a great deal of the population. In the end, users can demand the four freedoms, and then businesses will have to comply or die.

    10. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the record, most Christians in the US are in fact lunatics. And not because of their moral beliefs. They just have a small problem with their brains being missing.

    11. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by moochfish · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I read that and thought the exact same thing.

      The main power of GPL comes from copyright laws. First of all, his statement reeks of hypocricy. Besides, last time I checked, if I write something, it's mine to do whatever I want with. If I want to keep the source to myself or let others benefit from it, that's MY choice. If I want to destroy it or never look at it again, that's MY choice. Nobody has any right under any pretext to come over and forcably "liberate" my code. Slavery is the WRONG analogy. Slaves are people who are arbitrarily placed into servitude by people with more power.

      The proper analogy is to normal property such as a house. Let's say I go out and buy a bunch of supplies (compilers and debuggers) and go to school to learn a bunch of architectural skills (programming knowledge). Then, using my new found resources, I build a house (program). It's my damn decision to live in it by myself, burn it down, rent it out, leave it empty, or give it away. What he's saying is that other people breaking into my house and stealing all or parts out of it at their leisure is okay as long as they're willing to share their loot with the rest of the world.

      That's dead wrong. That's theft and that's CERTAINLY unethical.

    12. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by vux984 · · Score: 1

      What I strongly disagree with is Stallmans misguided and unethical attitude to having the right to use the work of others even if its against their will.

      Misguided and unethical?

      Totally. I mean the whole science thing, of publishing results for your peers to verify and build on -- bad idea that. We'd all be better off if scientists each worked in their little labs and refused to collaborate; and then patented and licensed anything they did find out about the universe; and sued eachother if they determined that someone else came up and used one of their results (even if they came by it completely independantly)...

      I think THAT is misguided and unethical.

      And the tragic part is that's where science is going. The physical sciences went their first -- chemistry, biology, physics, and now even the pure scienses like mathematics are getting into the game... we are letting them patent numbers for crying out loud.

    13. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Swift+Kick · · Score: 1

      Well, the problem is that he did say it should be done if the right oportunity came along, but it would be a hard thing to do because the big corporation (he used Oracle in his example) would catch on and stomp it with its big stick.

      The problem I had with his statement is that he's effectively saying you're entirely justified in 'freeing the code', regardless of who it belongs to. If it's 'closed source', it needs to be free, plain and simply. That is the kind of position that would make companies think twice about moving to Open Source.... I mean, an employee with a more radical set of beliefs that mirror those of RMS could feel 'justified' to make public some modifications or in-house forks of Open Source projects, because after all, 'code should be free'.

      Also, there is such a thing as 'IP theft'. Intelectual property can be defined as follows:

      "Intellectual Property: A creation of the intellect that has commercial value, including copyrighted property such as literary or artistic works, and ideational property, such as patents, appellations of origin, business methods, and industrial processes."

      This is taken from here: http://www.sandiegobusinesslawfirm.com/legal_defin ition

      While copyright infringement is part of IP theft, it spans a few more things, including 'business methods' and 'industrial processes' which I believe software development could fall under.

      So, in essence, my point is that RMS is condoning source-code theft if you are doing it for the 'right reasons' (his reasons, that is), and you can get away with it. This to me is a very dangerous thing to say, which will end up alienating those who might be more moderate.

      --
      "We'll need 2000 crickets, 4 cans of Easy Cheese, and the fluid from 18 glowsticks for this plan to work...." - ph0n1c
    14. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by The+Cisco+Kid · · Score: 1

      Your house analogy is flawed. Copying program code is not even remotely close to stealing the physical materials of a house. Stealing your house, or real property, deprives you of that property. Copying program code does not.

      It may be ILLEGAL, but wether it should be illegal, or wether it is ethical or otherwise, is debatable.

    15. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by ninjaz · · Score: 2, Informative
      Maybe you might consider this a trolling or a flame, but I think that it is quotes such as these that may end up bringing the most amount of trouble for the RMS crowd... I think the man is losing touch with reality, and approaching a point where zealotry is clowding his judgment to a dangerous level. How can we convince businesses that using the GPL and open source is a GOOOD THING if one of the main characters is in effect condoning IP theft if done for the 'right reasons'?
      The only thing that has changed is RMS is being interviewed by Forbes now. If you had read his essay "Why software should not have owners", for instance, it would have been apparent that he has stayed true to his goals over the years.

      Actually what I find disturbing is the "IP" proponents are proposing that DRM be sanctified as more precious than human life. Personally, I would much prefer someone like RMS who would support giving me the source to any programs that run my company as an assurance of never being left high and dry or strongarmed to someone who says they would have no problems with killing me if it would help the bottom line the next quarter.

      Also, I think it bears mentioning that RMS actually is in favor of the right to write your programs and keep them completely private, not releasing them to anyone. That's one of the reasons he entered the fray of the big Apple license debate some years back. The license was requiring that any changes be sent back to Apple, whether or not the resulting source/binary was released to anyone.

      Further, when it comes to discussing the ethical basis of copyright, I think it bears repeating that the reason we have copyright at all in the United States is to "promote the progress of science and the useful arts". I'm not sure if you noticed, but it has been a trend lately amongst many technology and entertainment companies to injure the progress of science and the useful arts freely as long as they think it will keep them in the money. That includes activities such as subverting international standards organizations and activities such as subverting national governments so that they retroactively extend copyright, effectively "stealing IP", to use your terms, from all of humanity (or at least all of that country's citizens).

    16. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by jb.hl.com · · Score: 1

      It IS misguided and unethical to, say, republish someone's book on the Internet for free under the pretense that books should be free for everyone, or to believe in that stance. It has nothing to do with scientific papers and everything to do with the moral rights of an author.

      This is why so many people ignore RMS; because he wants to force his views on everyone whether they like it or not, and completely ignores the right of the author of a work to do whatever he/she friggin' well wants to do with it, be it keep it under lock and key, spread it to the masses or whatever. It's akin to saying that it's not unethical to steal TVs from shop windows, because TVs should be free.

      --
      By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
    17. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Peer review is one thing. Source-code theft is another. They are not the same.

      Please keep your sarcastic analogies to yourself.

    18. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by argel · · Score: 1

      I think it is a bit semantics. When RMS talsk about ethics while answering that question I think he really means morals. It should read something like this: it would be morally correct to liberate the prorietary code but unethical to do so becuase it is currently illegal. I think that makes it more palatable yet really doesn't change his intent.

      --

      -- Argel
    19. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by dbIII · · Score: 1
      Nothing has really changed here.

      File this with the views of RMS on passwords (ie. don't have them and let anyone use your system) and realise that we don't need a hero to follow blindly, just some good ideas. RMS has some good ideas, but we don't have to follow the bad ones as well. He isn't losing touch with reality, he wants to change it. He does not appear to think that proprietry software has a right to exist and has major problems with commercially controlled open software (eg. xemacs, qt and X windows at different points). Take his viewpoint, accept it, ignore the ridiculous emotive language (treacherous, liberate, slave etc), and move on while agreeing to disagree. It does sound ridiculous to be a copyright advocate for your own personal licence and not respect the copyright of others, but think of it in his context where all software should be under his own personal licence. It's single issue politics - probably best kept confined to a staffroom at MIT where he can claim linux as his (LiGnuX then gnu/linux after the laughter died down) after being teased for the hurd taking so long to develop.

    20. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by zenhkim · · Score: 2

      It's a "dangerous precedent" only if you view RMS or his ideas as a threat. History is full of examples where certain ideas were considered dangerous. Just for laughs, here's a short list:

      - Women should be allowed to learn to read, have the right to vote, and choose not to have sex with their husbands if they so desire. (If a man wanted sex, but his wife wasn't in the mood, too bad for her.)
      - Human beings have *not* always existed since the beginning of time -- rather, they must have arose from older, more primitive yet tougher ancestors, who in turn must have descended from mere animals. (No, it wasn't Darwin who first came up with this idea!)
      - The moon is not a perfectly smooth sphere, but has mountain ranges and "seas" like the earth. (Galileo was nearly executed by the Catholic Church for this one.)
      - People should question everything and choose to live their lives in their own way, instead of unthinkingly following what everyone else does. (Socrates wasn't so lucky -- he was put to death for "corrupting the youth" with this idea.)

      Furthermore, if you haven't already I recommend you read "Hackers" by Steven Levy, which describes the early years of the mini/micro computer era: back then *software was not considered a commodity to be bought and sold*. It was made freely available to whoever needed it ...until a young geek named Bill Gates came onto the scene and got royally pissed off at what he called "software thieves" -- and now he presides over the Microsoft empire! So if anything, RMS isn't really setting a precedent, but trying to undo the damage that commercial interest wreaked on the software community. (BTW, the book ends with RMS himself at the beginning of his "free software" crusade!)

      --
      "All hands, BRACE FOR IMPACT!"
    21. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by jmv · · Score: 1

      While copyright infringement is part of IP theft, it spans a few more things, including 'business methods' and 'industrial processes' which I believe software development could fall under.

      I suppose you can point to any *legal* document that refers to copyright/patent/trademark/whatever infringement as "theft". I doubt you will find any, simply because it's not theft (although it's illegal, and possibly unethical too). If I punch you in the face (not that I'd want to, just an example!) and break your nose, would you call it "esthetical theft"?

    22. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by colinbrash · · Score: 2

      If you don't consider making code proprietary to be ethical, you clearly cannot consider liberating the code to be unethical.

      Of course you can. You might simply consider breaking the law to be unethical. Or you might consider harming others by ruining their business unethical (whether or not they rely on something you consider unethical). There are a lot of reasons one might consider it unethical to stop/reverse something else they consider unethical.

    23. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by aralin · · Score: 1
      Your comment is based on the largest falacy about IP propagated among people. You come out of position of having some inherent right to copyright or patent protection. And that is simply not true. You create something, you give or sell it to someone else, they can make copies or sell it or modify it as much as they wish, who is there to prevent them?

      Yeah, right, you have made a contract with your government, which basically says, that they will send thugs with guns to threaten violence into the house of whoever copies and sells your work, so you could be the only one to profit from it. In exchange for this you promise to behave in a manner to benefit the society and be more productive and invest your resources gained from this unnatural alliance to create more works to be sold and profited from and in the process bring benefit to all. Do not ever forget this contract.

      Some of us believe that making contract with someone to send armed thugs to threaten violence to others with the sole purpose of maintaining a monopoly is not ethical, no matter how nicely you put it.

      Let me reiterate that nobody is taking anything against your will, you have given or sold it away freely, without any force or threat of force. I just want to do as I please with whatever I got or bought. But I cannot because of your contract to threaten violence.

      --
      If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
    24. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by vux984 · · Score: 1

      It IS misguided and unethical to, say, republish someone's book on the Internet for free under the pretense that books should be free for everyone

      How is that substantially different from putting books in a library? Or should we should ban that too. After all, according to you reading books without paying for them is wrong, and putting books in libraries where anyone can go an read them for free is therefore unethical and misguided.

      It has nothing to do with scientific papers and everything to do with the moral rights of an author.

      1) The two are one in the same. How are the "moral rights of an author over a book he wrote" any different from the "moral rights of a scientist over a theory he developed"

      2) What exactly *are* the "moral rights of an author" anyway?

      If I invent fire, what moral rights are you asserting I have to force the rest of society to live in the cold EVEN if they discover fire independantly after I did?

      It's akin to saying that it's not unethical to steal TVs from shop windows, because TVs should be free.

      Your right. But what you fail to see is that you actually are proving MY point. What is the difference between your TV example and this:

      It's akin to saying that it's not unethical to free slaves from their masters, because people should be free.

      What is the difference? In one the subject is people, the other the subject is TVs. Both are physical objects in the world that can be owned or not owned. So whats the difference?

      There isn't one, and once upon a time. There was no difference to society either. Both were property and it was thought illegal and unethical to steal (or liberate) either.

      If RMS were alive in the 1800's claiming that freeing slaves is not unethical, what would you have said? I suspect something along the lines of:

      It's akin to saying that it's not unethical to steal TVs from shop windows, because TVs should be free.

      Because it applies equally.

      Yet society has moved on, and vindicated the operators of the underground railroad, we generally agree now that people shouldn't be property, and that its unethical to treat them as such.

      RMS is simply saying he beleives the same about "intellectual property", that it shouldn't be property, and copying it isn't inherently unethical. Perhaps he is simply ahead of his time? After all there is nothing about IP that inherently suggests people *should* own it.

      Perhaps in the future we'll look back and consider your comparison of TV theft to code copying with the same disdain we would have for someone who equates stealing TVs with liberating slaves. Or perhaps not.

      Regardless of what the future holds, RMS isn't advocating "stealing code" today, he isn't running or involved with an underground railway for "liberated code". He is simply an activist for what he beleives. Looking to change the way society thinks about "IP".

      His license is just that his license. Nobody is obligated to use it unless they choose to; or build off of GPL'd code -- but if you use GPLed code you are*leveraging* off the work of individuals who do beleive code should be copied, and who contributed that code and made it available to other like minded individuals. If you aren't like minded -- don't use it. RMS isn't *forcing* his views on anyone. He is advocating his views and good for him. They are more enlightened than most peoples.

      I for one, applaud him, and wish him luck, even though I personally do beleive there is value in patents and copyrights (although in much more limited form than what we have)

    25. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by bladesjester · · Score: 1

      Out of curiosity, do you happen to have the link for that article? This is one I honestly want to see just to see how low he's gone. I did a quick google for it, and found a couple of forbes articles that mention him, but not that one.

      --
      Everything I need to know I learned by killing smart people and eating their brains.
    26. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Geoffreyerffoeg · · Score: 1

      Stop complaining and show some respect for man that has firm moral believes and stands up and speaks out for them.

      At the risk of invoking Godwin 2001(tm), Osama bin Laden has strong moral beliefs and stands up for them pretty strongly. Simply calling a set of beliefs "moral" does not make them moral. There is a set of basic moral beliefs that everyone shares: killing or hurting people is generally bad, keeping your word is generally good, etc. Some respect for private property is also in this, and code is considerable as private property. I don't see RMS's statement as quite moral per se, although they do follow his stated "moral code".

      No Christian fundamentalist would force a gay man into having sex with a woman. The most they'd do is pressure him to be chaste. So there's a point when following your own moral code will violate the general human morality. I think "liberating" proprietary code is past this line. Go ahead and boycott it, but it's immoral to refuse to respect the wishes of the coder that his code not be publicized.

    27. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by dangitman · · Score: 1
      If you don't consider making code proprietary to be ethical, you clearly cannot consider liberating the code to be unethical.

      But GPL code itself is copyrighted. So, Stallman is also arguing that it is OK to "steal" GPL code and violate the GPL under certain circumstances. How is that not hypocritical?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    28. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1
      I mean, for all intents and purposes, RMS feels that 'stealing' copyrighted code is justifiable, if it's done with the intent to "liberate it".

      No. RMS argues that copying is not stealing, and that code is not property.

      (And indeed, despite attempts to introduce memes like "intellectual property", there is still a strong legal distinction between copyright violation and theft.)

      He's not condoning theft - he's opposed to the very concept of "IP".

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    29. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      ...zealotry is clowding his judgment...

      Did you mean: clowning

    30. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Al+Dimond · · Score: 1

      It's not the people that actually bombed abortion clinics that are the truly analogous case here. It would be people that feel that such actions are ethical, but that they should not not be performed because they are illegal. You could probably find plenty of people who would agree with that, especially if you pushed them in that direction by starting with their belief on abortion and using some combination of logical reasoning and quotes from religious texts they may believe in. A lot of these people would also probably agree that bombing abortion clinics is not a very wise way to protest abortions because you'll be found out and arrested quickly, and because mainstream society would more likely turn against you than be inpired by you if you did such a thing.

    31. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by jZnat · · Score: 1

      The GPL is a legal form of copyleft that bases itself on copyright laws. Without copyright laws, the GPL would not need to exist.

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    32. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AC so this will likely languish in mod hell, but still gotta respond.

      RMS' position is entirely reasonable. Consider the whole reason given for setting up copyright law and the extension of said law over time. The justification for the law is to provide incentive for the creation of works which will enrich society and ultimately enter the public domain, becoming a common heritage we can all draw on, just as Disney did in creating his works, which were based on stories in the public domain.

      Copyright terms have been extended and extended again. Was it ethical for Disney to take stories in the public domain, expand them, and make movies out of them? Is it ethical to take something a year out of copyright and do the same? What about if copyright terms were just extended, and an item fell a day on the far side of having the extension applied to it? What about a day on the near side? How can one be ethical and the other not?

      OK, so we have a set time. What's to say that it must be 70 years after the author's death vs a year after creation vs no copyright period at all? I'll tell you what -- it isn't ethics, it's law.

      What RMS was saying is that ethics doesn't enter into it. Copyright is a privilege society has extended in law to the copyright author to encourage the production of more such works by providing a method of making a living off of them. Nothing more. Breaking an arbitrarily set time period in the law is indeed breaking the law, but it's not unethical, unless you are prepared to support an argument that all law is ethical.

      That's all RMS was saying and was in fact his point. The GPL is a "copyleft" tool that simply takes advantage of the copyright law situation we have on the ground at this point. Yes, it's /just/ as illegal to appropriate GPL content without abiding by the terms as it is any other copyrighted content, and there are folks (such as Herald Welte (sp?), of note due to his actions taken to enforce the law based on his netfilter copyrights) that will certainly use that law to enforce their rights. However, RMS' point is that the appropriate itself, while perhaps illegal, isn't unethical, because the law enforcing copyrights is simply a convenient social construct, in the end, a law, enforced as such, not an ethical principle.

      Certainly, that's his view and there are other viewpoints, but it's a quite reasonable view and one I hold as well.

      Duncan

    33. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by kasparov · · Score: 1
      Respect for private property is "also in this" for you. There are other systems of political and economic thought that do not feel the ownership of private property is moral/ethical. Without personally making a claim for either view, I think that it is at least important to point out that just because one has been raised holding a certain belief as moral/sacred, doesn't mean that everyone else is obliged to share that opinion.

      Many people consider abortion immoral, and some consider the government interfering with a person's ability to make decisions about what does and does not happen in their own body immoral. Many Western cultures would find cannibalism immoral, while other cultures might find it to be something perfectly natural--even sacred. Again, just because you were brought up with a certain set of beliefs doesn't make those beliefs neccessarily superior to another set. I would argue that testing the outcome of following various beliefs might be a good step towards evaluating their merits, but not neccessarily whether or not they are moral.

      With regards to "intellectual property" and copyright one could easily argue that hording knowledge is wrong. The society that one is a part of contributed to the development of that knowledge and releasing a product based on that knowledge and not allowing it to be used by others, some would say, is wrong. The compiled code has been released. It can be disassembled into the basic assembly code. A mathematical process was used to convert the easier to read code into the machine code. Again, one could argue that code once released is knowledge that should be in the public domain. Society grants certain rights to being able to profit, solely, from an original work for a limited time (which, in my personal opionion have been extended WAY too far), but an argument could be made that telling someone they can read something but not use the knowledge that they just read is an abridgement of their liberty.

      I know this isn't a rebuttal of everything you said, and it certainly isn't my intention to try to make it one. I mostly just wanted to say that it might not be a completely simple issue. I also agree that strong beliefs do not neccessarily make beliefs moral (which I know was your main point), I would just hesitate a little more at declaring protection of "intellectual property" as moral without questioning whether or not society has some right to benefit from it since "no man/woman is an island", etc.

      --
      There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
    34. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by top_down · · Score: 1
      and [...] learn a bunch of architectural skills

      Are you paying royalties to the inventors of those skills or are you just 'stealing' them? Or maybe copying is 'stealing' when someone copies from you, but it is not stealing when you copy from someone else?

      If you want your house analogy to work you have to change it so that someone copies the design/look of your house. Say someone walks past your newly build house and likes it so much that he decides to build a similar house in the next village.

      --
      Anyone who generalizes about slashdotters is a typical slashdotter.
    35. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by ClamIAm · · Score: 1

      We should be fighting for freedoms of people, not slaves. Abolition brings freedom to some people, allowing them to build their own culture not owned by slaveowners. We have a strong moral sense that people should be free to share if they choose. What I strongly disagree with is Abolitionists' misguided and unethical attitude to having the right to free the property of others even if it's against their will.

      ---------

      I had originally made a lengthy, essay-ish post about how fighting for free software is also fighting for human freedom. I think it's more effective to show how your argument is lacking.

    36. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by iive · · Score: 1

      if I write something, it's mine to do whatever I want with

      Let's take the analogy code==people.

      Your parents made you. They did the work using their own instruments and materials to do so (their bodies). Does this mean that you belong to them and they can do whatever they want with you? Beat you? Labor you? Slave you? Harras you? Abuse you? Kill you? Eat you?

      In this society this is not the case. People belong to the society and parants are obligated to take care of their children, not to own them.
      In this society copyrighted work is not propriety of the creator, but of the society. It is that the society have given the author temporal monopoly of the work.

    37. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by dangitman · · Score: 1
      Without copyright laws, the GPL would not need to exist.

      I don't see how that follows. The GPL provides a mechanism of attribution and source distribution. Even if copyright did not exist, how would you guarantee attribution without some sort of license? What would stop somebody from plagiarising code or other creative works?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    38. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      At the risk of invoking Godwin 2001(tm), Osama bin Laden has strong moral beliefs and stands up for them pretty strongly. Simply calling a set of beliefs "moral" does not make them moral.

      The available evidence points to that Bin Ladin is more of a psychopath than religious. From what little I know of islam, terrorism is (almost) as much a violation of Islam as it is a violation of Christianity. Obviously, that has stopped neither Hitler nor Bin Ladin (who have both used their religions to justify their excesses).

      In any case, you should look to RMS' specific morals before you try to decry morality, generally. RMS's morals are to provide maximum value to society as a whole. Period. He has striven to do so by giving people rights, and taking steps to protect those rights. (( The GPL gives you rights. It does not take away from you any of the rights that would have been yours under bare copyright(*) )).

      He does absolutely nothing (that I can see) to take away the rights of others. He simply strives to have Fre software be a viable alternative to the proprietary model -- and for the first decade or so of that crusade he got precious little in return.

      (( The GPL's granting of rights should be contrasted with things like the MS EULA which is clearly designed to convince you (and a court) that, beyond giving MS hundreds of dollars for a useless $0.35 piece of plastic (which is all that the EULA claims that you've actually bought) you've also given Microsoft a whole boatload of your legal rights (including control of your computer)))
      ____

      (*) The one arguable exception to this would be where you wanted to give/sell your only copy of a GPL program to someone else (and did not intend to create another copy for yourself). Copyright would allow this, but the GPL would seem to require you to also ensure that the recipient had a copy of the GPL and access to the source code .. In such a case, you could (probaboy) get around this problem by simply not accepting the GPL. -- in other words, if the GPL attempts to take away a right from you, and you're not doing anything else with that GPL code which (in the absense of the GPL) would have been a copyright violation, then all you have to do is not accept the GPL and stay within copyright rules.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    39. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whether or not it is ethical depends on the person. It _is_ illegal though. But I can very well understand people who think it it should be allowed to distribute ideas for free.

      What the parent means is that no science work, nor book, nor sourcecode can be written without getting inspiration from previous ideas. In this respect, it is rather unethical to keep your additions secret. It is also why copyrighted works go into the public domain after a number of years. Ever wondered why this is? People much smarter than you or I have thought about this in the past. And most of them thought it to be wrong to keep ideas secret, but we had to make copyright, in order to provide creative people with an income.

      However, not so intelligent people like the AC below don't get this, like 90% of the people. And this is why I sometimes feel we move into an intellectual dark-age.

    40. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by ajs318 · · Score: 1, Funny

      I don't have a problem with that at all; and I don't think anyone else who seriously believes in the Four Freedoms would have a problem with it. If you believe in the Four Freedoms, and you believe that they apply absolutely and without qualification to every user past, present and future and to every piece of software ever written or to be written, then it follows that for anyone to deny anyone else any of the Four Freedoms, ever, is just downright wrong.

      If you try to prevent me from studying a piece of software to satisfy my sense of morbid curiosity, then that is an act of violence. If you tell me I cannot make a copy of a piece of software to help my neighbour, then that is tantamount to you stealing from my neighbour. If you try to prevent me from adapting a piece of software to my own particular needs, then that constitutes you imposing your will on me -- which is a form of violence.

      I would certainly go so far as to say that the use of reasonable force is justified in the pursuit of the Four Freedoms. The environmental protesters of the 1990s called for no harm to life, only property in the pursuit of their goals. I do not think it unreasonable to call for no harm to life or {real, tangible} property, only false, "intellectual property" in the pursuit of the Four Freedoms. By which I mean to say that holding a knife to someone's throat and demanding that they hand over the source code, however romantic that may sound, would not be reasonable force if there was a more benign way to obtain it {perhaps by decompilation, by non-destructively hacking into a file server, or by temporarily misappropriating a laptop with intent to return it}.

      It's not about whether two wrongs make a right. It's about whether liberating proprietary software is even wrong. And clearly it isn't, because it should never have been proprietary in the first place.

      Since this wouldn't be Slashdot without an analogy, I'll provide one.

      If someone has locked a dog in their car on a hot day, and it is in serious distress, anyone has a legal right to break into that car to rescue the dog. Even if they have to cause some damage to the car, as long as they can show that it was no more than necessary then the law is on their side {and the owner can pay for repairs out of the money you will be saving on dog food, because they will be barred from keeping a dog in future}.

      A restrictive EULA is like a locked car on a hot day, and the user so restricted is like a dog trapped in the car.

      RMS also goes on to say that liberating software in the way vendors think of as "theft" probably won't be terribly effective, because the vendors will be in a position to suppress the use of the liberated code. What would be more effective would be for even just one country somewhere in the world to enshrine the Four Freedoms in law. And I do not believe that is too improbable.

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    41. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by abb3w · · Score: 1
      If you don't consider making code proprietary to be ethical, you clearly cannot consider liberating the code to be unethical.

      I clearly can, for I do not presume two wrongs make a right. Clearly, RMS can as well.

      --
      //Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
    42. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by maxume · · Score: 1

      Of course, if my ethics say that it is okay to dictate terms under which people may use my creation(a EULA in other words), and you say 'your ethics are wrong, I'm taking your code', it is no longer a question of ethics, but a question of morality. You are asserting that your ethics are better; whether they are or not is beside the point.

      GPL: The Share-Damn-It license.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    43. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by booch · · Score: 1

      It's not theft, if owner still has it after it's been "stolen".

      --
      Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
    44. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      He probably have more touch on reallity than you. That is the reason you don't understand. Please, consider that RMS could forsee all this DRM stuff, and hardware enabled DRM. He could forsee that the biggest copyright holders would use their power to get the governments working for them, and would monopolise knowledge and access to knowledge (you can read his texts at the FSF site).

      And reallity is confirmating that... We have DRM, and hardware enforced DRM didn't take up yet, but companies keep trying. The biggest coppyright owners are already using their power to corrupt governments, getting advantages that goes from infinite restrictions on knowledge (that you needs to ask them if you wants to get any information), aka DMCA, to private taxes, aka blank media tax.

      Don't fool yourself. Copyrights are dangerous, and RMS isn't stupid nor delusional. Try check on history, RMS view is almost always confirmed to be true shortly after people start telling he's delusional.

    45. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Gorbag · · Score: 2, Insightful
      RMS also goes on to say that liberating software in the way vendors think of as "theft" probably won't be terribly effective, because the vendors will be in a position to suppress the use of the liberated code. What would be more effective would be for even just one country somewhere in the world to enshrine the Four Freedoms in law. And I do not believe that is too improbable.
      You're probably right: I think the country you are looking for is North Korea.
      --
      -- I speak only for myself
    46. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But GPL code itself is copyrighted. So, Stallman is also arguing that it is OK to "steal" GPL code and violate the GPL under certain circumstances. How is that not hypocritical?

      He thinks it is ethical to take non-gpl'd code and release it under the gpl. So are you saying that he is hypocritical because we would not want people to take gpl code and release it under the gpl?

      Note that he did say that, because it is illegal, it should not be done. This means that he respects copyright law, and so he is not hypocritical on that point either. He is not saying that it is okay to break copyright on their code but not mine.

    47. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by booch · · Score: 1

      moral rights of an author

      Making money from (a particular) something is not a moral right. (Although feeding your family is, I suppose.) The moral right of an author is to be acknowledged as the author, not to make money from the work. Even copyright is not primarily intended to protect the monetization of a work; the potential profit (for a limited time) is intended to encourage more artistic and useful works.

      It's akin to saying that it's not unethical to steal TVs from shop windows, because TVs should be free.

      If I steal your TV, you no longer have a TV. If I copy your book, you still have your book. See the difference yet? If I have not deprived you of anything, where is the harm? You may claim that the harm is that you can't make money off the thing. But the Free software movement has shown that people can make money and still make the code free (as in free speech). In fact, they argue that there's more harm in keeping that code to yourself (actually, the harm is primarily in using the hidden code as leverage against the users) than your potential loss of revenue. You should try to understand RMS's point, so you can argue where the line should be drawn, because that's your actual core disagreement with him.

      --
      Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
    48. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by rhkramer · · Score: 1

      Let's say I go out and buy a bunch of supplies (compilers and debuggers) and go to school to learn a bunch of architectural skills (programming knowledge). Then, using my new found resources, I build a house (program). It's my damn decision to live in it by myself, burn it down, rent it out, leave it empty, or give it away. What he's saying is that other people breaking into my house and stealing all or parts out of it at their leisure is okay as long as they're willing to share their loot with the rest of the world.

      Let's start from a few different places:

            * In general, nobody is forcing you to apply the GPL to your code, except in one case (below)

            * In some cases (more below), if some of the supplies you "bought" were GPL'd, the price of those supplies includes that what you create from those supplies also be licensed under the GPL.

      To try to clarify the ambiguous statement I just made, the use of GPL'd compilers and debuggers (i.e., tools) does not require that you license what you produce using those under the GPL.

      On the other hand, if you modify an existing GPL'd program, your building supplies (as opposed to tools) were GPL'd, and you are required to license your modifications under the GPL.

      Just as you can choose to license something you make for dollars, others can choose to license something they make for other forms of renumeration (sp?). One form of renumeration is a guarantee that the work they performed will always be available to others, to use, study, ... (the four freedoms that Richard Stallman points to).

      Again, if you have the right to license your program for dollars, I have the right to license mine for dollars or something else that I value. Depending on what building supplies (as opposed to tools) you choose to use (public domain, proprietary, or GPL'd), you have to pay the cost of those. Some are free, some will cost you money, and some may cost you something else.
    49. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      The message is often lost in the cult of personality. This is especially true in religion and politics.

      --
      What?
    50. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      The main power of GPL comes from copyright laws.

      The main reason for GPL comes from copyright law. In fact it's the only reason. Copyright law is what made GPL necessary. Without copyright, GPL is not needed. And of course your house analogy is way off base. I shouldn't need to explain why. Slavery is a good analogy. Slaves are people who are arbitrarily placed into servitude by people with more power. The same can be said for information, excpet the part about being people. Like people, information must not be placed into servitude(copyright) by people with power.

      --
      What?
    51. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Am I the only one that sees this statement as a dangerous precedent? I mean, for all intents and purposes, RMS feels that 'stealing' copyrighted code is justifiable, if it's done with the intent to "liberate it"

      Am I the only one who sees this proclamation as a dangerous precedent? I mean, for all intents and purposes, Mr. Lincoln feels that "stealing" our purchased negro property is justifiable, if it's done with the intent to "liberate it."

    52. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      What he's saying is that other people breaking into my house and stealing all or parts out of it at their leisure is okay as long as they're willing to share their loot with the rest of the world.

      Incorrect.
      What he's saying is that it's okay for somenone to look at your house and make one exactly like, even if you protest. Not depriving you of yours, but not letting you deprive them of theirs either just because you did it first.
      I'm really getting tired of people that can't understand that stealing something deprives the owner of said item. Duplicating does not.
    53. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Geoffreyerffoeg · · Score: 1

      In any case, you should look to RMS' specific morals before you try to decry morality, generally. RMS's morals are to provide maximum value to society as a whole. Period. He has striven to do so by giving people rights, and taking steps to protect those rights.

      I'm decrying neither morality nor the GPL, just RMS's specific view that proprietary code needs to be liberated. This is as much bull as saying the citizens of Iraq need to be liberated. Sure, they were under a bad government, and proprietary code is often an abuse of the public knowledge, but do we really need to have an activist go and mess with someone else's problem just to attempt to right every infringement of ethics?

      And this isn't giving people rights. You have a right to secrecy and privacy. You have the right to provide a service without a good - if I open a barber shop, I am under no obligation to offer my scissors for sale, or even offer to give away my method of cutting hair. Similarly, software developers seem to have a right to allow their software to serve on others' computers without actually opening up the code to their software, which they reserve as a trade secret. The right to copy someone else's code is a "right" to infringe others' rights.

      I'm not saying that proprietary code is better than Free code. Given the choice, I'll almost always encourage Freeing code (except when the code needs to be hidden for an extra level of security, albeit through obscurity). But if code has been made proprietary, why bother the coder by stealing his secrets?

    54. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      His solution to this moral dilema is the GPL.

      The GPL doesn't force you to do anything. The only time you're 'forced' to do anything is if you consciously decide to do some things with it that you are almost never allowed to do with Proprietary code (almost by definition), -- i.e. modify the code, and then give the modified code to people outside of your 'organization' (where your organication cound vary from your household for a home user to your company in the case of a corporate user).

      Let's see you get the rights to modify and redistribue MS Windows for less than an arm and a leg, and without having to pay thousands of dollars and possibly also forced to give the rights to your new code to a third party (i.e. Microsoft) -- In some cases, even including the stuff that you don't release to others.

      Under the GPL, you continue to own the code you contbuted and, if you can extract the GPL code from it, you can even release a fully proprietary version of it. (Both Rieserfs and MySQL, for example distribute their products under both BPL and proprietary licenses).

      RMS has no problems with this because what he finds immoral about purely propriet6ary code is that it leaves users (and their data) at the mercy of some company's business plan (and even it's liquidity). With MySQL having a GPL version, users know that, if they need to, they can fix ay problem that they have with the prprietary version, even if they have a Proprietary copy and the MySQL refuse to fix it (or go bankrupt).

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    55. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Geoffreyerffoeg · · Score: 1

      His solution to this moral dilema is the GPL.

      The GPL's great. Forcing people to GPL their code isn't.

    56. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      Nobody is forced to GPL their code. There is no requirement for you to redistribute GPL code that you've modified, and that's the only time that you have to GPL your additions. If you keep the modified GPl code inside of your company (or your home, as the case may be), then there is no need to license anything.

      In comparison, Who's the last people you met that had the ability to modify and redistribute Windows -- and if you did:

      1. how much did they pay for this 'priveledge', and
      2. did they have to give their code to Microsoft?
      This seems to me a case of "give them a yard and they demand a mile". Here someone is giving you an application for free, and you're bitching that you can't close-source it and force them to pay for your minor fixes.
      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    57. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Geoffreyerffoeg · · Score: 1

      This seems to me a case of "give them a yard and they demand a mile".

      Noooo! I never said that the GPL was bad. The GPL's great. All I complained about was that RMS said that closed-source code ought to be "liberated".

    58. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      All I complained about was that RMS said that closed-source code ought to be "liberated".

      Yeah, and there are a lot of hot women out there that I think should go to bed with me -- but that doesn't mean that I'm about to go on a rape spree. Neither is RMS forcing anybody to Open Source anything against their will.

      He's simply using the GPL and a body of Free and usefull software to encourage people to "move over to the light side". People who want to continue to pay Microsoft big money for the 'right' to have microsoft take over their computer are free to continue to do so. People like Microsoft who want to sell closed source are similarly free to do so. RMS's intention, however, is that people will ultimately see that the Open Source route is far superior and walk away from what MS is trying to do to them.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    59. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Geoffreyerffoeg · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and there are a lot of hot women out there that I think should go to bed with me -- but that doesn't mean that I'm about to go on a rape spree. Neither is RMS forcing anybody to Open Source anything against their will.

      Not quite. If you look at the original quote - way at the beginning of this discussion - he said it would be moral for someone to break an NDA, get proprietary code, and liberate it to the world, because the mere existence of proprietary code is immoral.

      This is like saying "Look, all these women are loose, and we have fun." Which is fine, so far (in this context). "Now these other women...if someone could find a way to let us have fun with them, I think that'd be great." That's just barely below inciting rape.

    60. Re:Troubling statement from RMS.... by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      he said it would be moral for someone to break an NDA, get proprietary code, and liberate it to the world, because the mere existence of proprietary code is immoral.

      Moral, but illegal, and the fact that it was illegal was enough to stop him.

      In the other direction, there are a lot of things in this world that are legal but not moral... a 60 year old man having sex with a 16 year old runaway is legal. Fleecing people of their money is often done in (barely) legal ways. Legal and moral don't always coincide, and RMS is simply acknowledging that. He thinks that proprietary software is immoral, but he's chosen to take on that scourge in an entirely legal manner -- which I fully agree with.

      Civil disobedience (willfully breaking the law on moral grounds) should be reserved to the most extreme cases, otherwise we run the risk of anarchy because different people think that different things are (im)moral.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
  11. Privateer by HaeMaker · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I believe the word Apple is looking for is "Privateer". A state-sponsored pirate is a privateer.

    1. Re:Privateer by Experiment+626 · · Score: 3, Funny

      I believe the word Apple is looking for is "Privateer". A state-sponsored pirate is a privateer.

      I like it! Maybe France will start granting people Letters of Marque.

  12. Exception by Arandir · · Score: 1

    Thanks to copyright law, GPL violators are always in the wrong.

    Except in those few cases where the GPL (and/or the FSF's interpretation of it) restricts something that (classic non-DMCA) copyright law does not. They are corner cases to be sure, but a few do exist.

    --
    A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
    1. Re:Exception by SETIGuy · · Score: 1
      Except in those few cases where the GPL (and/or the FSF's interpretation of it) restricts something that (classic non-DMCA) copyright law does not. They are corner cases to be sure, but a few do exist.

      Name one.

    2. Re:Exception by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're still missing the point. The GPL does not restrict anything. It grants you permission to distribute the program, and modified versions of it, under certain conditions. If you want to distribute the program, you implicitly accept those conditions, because there's no other way to go about it. If you don't accept those conditions, copyright forbids you from distributing the program.

      If there is a way to legally distribute a copyrighted work without the permission of the copyright holder, then that is a bug in copyright law, not in the GPL.

    3. Re:Exception by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not talking about distributing the software.

    4. Re:Exception by Arandir · · Score: 1

      Dynamic linkage. The FSF's interpretation of the GPL says I may not link a non-GPL program to a GPL library. You can't do it with static linkage, because that's clearly distributing the software, but both dynamic and runtime linkage should be acceptable. Except that the FSF says the GPL won't let you.

      You aren't distributing the software with dynamic linkage. And you're not creating a derivative work either, not in the way copyright law defines it. The FSF offers up some excuse about the two separate works running in the same process space create a derivative work, but they're just making it up. But the process space "threshold" isn't in copyright law, so they might just as well say "because we said so".

      For more information on this exception, from a real lawyer, see http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6366. Don't respond to my post, respond to Larry Rosen's article.

      --
      A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
    5. Re:Exception by theLOUDroom · · Score: 1

      You aren't distributing the software with dynamic linkage. And you're not creating a derivative work either, not in the way copyright law defines it.

      1) Somehow I get the feeling this isn't metioned explicitly in copyright law....
      2) With enough money and a few expert witnesses, it seems pretty obvious that you would be able to show that it is indeed a derivative work. Consider:
      -If I write a "Harry Potter" book with all the same characters, sure I'm not actually distributing someone else's work verbatim, but it's pretty easy to show that I'm profiting of someone else's creation without compensation.
      -If I write a real derivitve work of a piece of code and just distribute .diff files, obviously it's still a dervitive work. I may not be distribuiting it in the same format, but using a diff file or dynamic linking is not some magical loophole.
      -Regarding loopholes, if what you're saying was really the standard to be used it becomes possible to distribute derivative works of ANYTHING simply by doing a diff and recombining them on the receiving end. I take your painting, make a .gif of it, paint on top of it in another transparent .gif and now I'm in the clear if I only distribute the transparent .gif? Even when I explicitly say it's a derivitve work that requires the other work to be meaningful?

      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
  13. Er.. by AWhiteFlame · · Score: 1

    If the measure passes the French Senate, Apple may consider closing its music operations in France.
    They would kind of have to, no? (Seeing as it doesn't look like they are to comply..)

    --
    "Everything worth innovating today will go to court tomorrow."
    1. Re:Er.. by arminw · · Score: 1

      ...If the measure passes the French Senate, Apple may consider closing its music operations in France.
      They would kind of have to, no?......

      I don't believe for a moment why ipod sales nor downloads should suffer if Apple simply dropped all DRM on the ITMS. The RIAA companies couldn't get them for breach of contract, since laws trump business agreements.

      Sales of ipods might actually go up because ipods could now access the other legal music services. ITMS purchases may also rise since the owners of other music players could buy files from there also. Once the music companies learn that DRM actually means fewer sales, they may drop it everywhere. If the companies stubbornly cling to DRM, it will die anyway, since anti DRM solutions will be legal. Once there are legal solutions for sale in France, the DMCA in the USA will become meaningless, because everybody who wants to strip DRM out of their legally bought content will just download the software.

      --
      All theory is gray
  14. GNU/Linux by Ritz_Just_Ritz · · Score: 1, Troll

    heh...Stallman is still at his old game of "if I tell people it's mine over and over, someone will eventually believe it."

    The FSF has already had its chance to bundle their tools around their own kernel with Hurd and that has failed miserably after MANY years of wasting resources on it. I wish he/they would stop trying to claim ownership of someone else's kernel to buy them the air of legitimacy needed to foist their political ideals on anyone who decides to use free software. The existing GPL isn't broken and weighing it down with political anti-DRM diatribe does not appeal to me, as a user, at all...even though I agree that DRM is not a great idea. I also don't agree with clubbing baby seals, but I don't think THAT needs to be part of the free software licensing scheme either...

    1. Re:GNU/Linux by BillyBlaze · · Score: 2
      It's unfair to say Stallman is trying to tell people something that isn't his is. He's just a stickler for precise thought, and doesn't like the (admittedly fuzzy, but convenient) practice of calling the Linux kernel, plus a bunch of stuff from GNU, (and the X people, and the KDE or Gnome projects, and tons of other groups), only "Linux."

      As for the GPL, it seems to me to be not much more than fixing loopholes. Back in the day, all computers were general-purpose, and there was not much concept of "firmware." Now, most peripherals can run software, and our computers are about to become far less general-purpose.

      It used to be, if you modify my software to run on some other system, just giving me your modifications is useful to me, because naturally the system could also run software that I modify still further. Now, with the advent of 'appliances' running firmware, and with the threat of computers refusing to run, or to communicate with others running, unsigned code, that assumption no longer holds.

    2. Re:GNU/Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If DRM is permitted in works distributed under the GPL, then the GPL has no effect. A corporation can take your GPLed code, add DRM to it, and re-release it; then nobody else (including you) can modify/reuse that version as was intended by the GPL.

      This is not some irrelevant issue. It's a significant loophole which the DRM-related clauses attempt to close.

    3. Re:GNU/Linux by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

      It seems very much inconsistent with the original goal of GNU: Freedom. RMS is on record as stating that he doesn't care if GNU software is used by terrorists, pedophiles, or even (shudder) Microsoft. It's not a popular position, but it is consistent. Why? Not because he supports them, but because GNU is about Freedom; not about discrimination or censorship. Now it seems like the GPL has accepted discrimination and censorship in the name of Freedom.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    4. Re:GNU/Linux by FhnuZoag · · Score: 1

      I missed how Stallman considers GNU to be 'his'. Is it spelt RMSU? Stallmanu? And I fail to see how Linux - actually named after a single person who is ultimately rather peripheral to the development process - manages to be a much fairer acknowledgement of everyone's work.

      In the end, RMS's request is very reasonable from philosophical point of view. The only problems - and yeah, these kill his argument - is that:

      1. The public choose to call Linux that way, and even if Linus himself was to pronounce in support of GNU, it wouldn't make a difference.
      2. GNU/Linux as a name, spoken out loud, TOTALLY SUCKS.

    5. Re:GNU/Linux by dbIII · · Score: 1
      and doesn't like the ... practice of calling the Linux kernel, plus a bunch of stuff from GNU ... only "Linux."
      Meanwhile other people were calling it RedHat linux, Slackware etc so that doesn't make sense, and I believe the excuse of the time was that it was to raise the profile of GNU. I disagree with the LiGnuX idea, and coming up with a different name that appealed to newbies (who flamed me frequently whenever I named the kernel without a prefix) is still annoying. Now a lot of people think the guy speaks for the linux community - remember he speaks for the worthwhile FSF and to a lesser extent the GNU project but has nothing to do with linux apart from the fact that some of his ideas were adopted and some of the apps he started (like the text editor macros that others turned into emacs - and the very useful gcc) are used in disributions based around linux. It's up to him to convince the linux community that his new licence is worth it - not to demand they use it before it is even finalised.

      If you put together a distro you get to name it - yelling demands from the sidelines or from the field of a different game is a different story.

    6. Re:GNU/Linux by k_187 · · Score: 1

      then wouldn't they be breaking the gpl? thus becoming subject to the penalties therof? I mean, I can do that now. Expressly forbiding it won't prevent anyone from doing it anyway.

      --
      11 was a racehorse
      12 was 12
      1111 Race
      12112
    7. Re:GNU/Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      In the current version of the GPL, doing such a thing with DRM would be violating the spirit of the license -- but it's not a legally clear issue. The changes to the GPL are, in part at least, an attempt to clarify this issue so that it can't be argued DRM is technically permissible.

    8. Re:GNU/Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Now a lot of people think the guy speaks for the linux community - remember he speaks for the worthwhile FSF and to a lesser extent the GNU project but has nothing to do with linux apart from the fact that some of his ideas were adopted [..]
      Depends. Is the "linux community" you are talking about the LKML or all the distributions that use the kernel. In the later case he speaks for a good chunk of the "linux community" and even in the former you will find quite a few GNUheads.
    9. Re:GNU/Linux by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      I think that his attitude on the naming is at least anoying. He could gladly accept that he is one of the main contributors to all the most popular free software out there, and let people name it anyway they like. Otherwise, we'll need to use GNU/*BSD, and GNU/HURD (that is funny).

      But I dislike naming any system running on top of Linux as "Linux" almost as much as I dislike naming it "GNU/Linux".

  15. State Sponsored Piracy by rossz · · Score: 3, Interesting

    That would be "privateering". A country would issue a letter of marque to a ship-owner/captain giving them leave to attack all of their country's enemies". Sometimes a priviteer's definition of "country's enemies" was a bit loose, though.

    --
    -- Will program for bandwidth
  16. Apple responds to French DRM legislation by Baseball_Fan · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The world may close up tight. Imagine the day when different countries have different laws about how DRM can work. What is legal in the USA might be illegal in France. And what is legal in Canada might be illegal in England. China might decide to have government controlled DRM, a phone home system that tells government what you're installing and what you're doing. It might be somewhat easier for people to break the law, but when the law is directed at a company, the company must comply or shut down.

    I know in this instance France wants Apple to open their DRM. But who is to say that another state might want to close DRM?

    What we might end up with is worse than DVD's that are region coded. We might get the hardware that is region specific, and no other method of opening data (music, files, movies).

    I think the world will move in that direction. What other reason would Sony or Universal have for forcing regions with DVD's? Why are they opposed of me buying movies from Spain or Germany? And if a company is so paranoid, just imagine nation-states that are worried their culture is being corroded away.

    1. Re:Apple responds to French DRM legislation by JanneM · · Score: 3, Interesting

      We already have that situation. I believe it's illegal to sell DVD players that ignore region coding in the US, while it's a challenge to find a player that doesn't ignore them in Sweden. Copyright has a different number of years in the US and Europe, meaning that there's material that's perfectly legal to copy and spread in the Europe (I believe some early Elvis recordings are coming up just about now) that are still under copyright in the US. You are specifically allowed to break protection schemes in Sweden for the purpose of archiving, format-shifting and for accessibility, while it is illegal in the US. Business patents are granted in the US but not honored in Europe.

      The list is much longer than that, and that's just between two jurisdictions that I happen to know a bit about.

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    2. Re:Apple responds to French DRM legislation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The world may close up tight. Imagine the day when different countries have different laws about how DRM can work. What is legal in the USA might be illegal in France. And what is legal in Canada might be illegal in England. China might decide to have government controlled DRM, a phone home system that tells government what you're installing and what you're doing.

      The world may close up tight. Imagine the day when different companies have different laws about how DRM can work. What is legal in FairPlay might be illegal in PlayForSure. And what is legal in Creative Commons might be illegal in CopyLeft. Sony might decide to have advertiser controlled DRM, a phone home system that tells advertiser what you're installing and what you're doing.

      I know in this instance France wants Apple to open their DRM.
      Obviously you know only partially. France wants every company to open their DRM, because different DRM schemes are just an artificial way to limit competition and to build a cripleware-based monopoly.

      What we might end up with is worse than DVD's that are region coded. We might get the hardware that is region specific, and no other method of opening data (music, files, movies). I think the world will move in that direction.
      While you are busy accepting that, a country is busy caring about its consumers. You end up with what you want, I'm French and I want to end up with interoperable DRM so I can buy my music at the vendor of my choosing, and listen to it on the device of my choosing, without illegally circumventing DRM (yes, that is illegal now with that DMCA-like law), without resorting to time-wasting solutions (decode/burn/rip/encode), without my music being locked-in with one company for the rest of my life or the rest of the company's life.

      What other reason would Sony or Universal have for forcing regions with DVD's? Why are they opposed of me buying movies from Spain or Germany?
      Limiting the competition by imposing country-specific prices, release dates and so forth ?
    3. Re:Apple responds to French DRM legislation by dr.badass · · Score: 1

      I know in this instance France wants Apple to open their DRM.

      No they don't. They want Apple to support Microsoft's DRM. Apple's comments about "state-sponsored piracy" come from the conclusion that being forced to allow third-party software to remove their DRM (for the presumed purpose of applying other DRM) will invariably lead to a gaping unsealable hole that they have no control over.

      If you look into it, this bill is actually pro-DRM/anti-P2P.

      --
      Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
    4. Re:Apple responds to French DRM legislation by RyanCowardin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Why do we have region codes? We pay $15US (or more) for a DVD here in the US. In China they sell pretty much the same DVDs (sometimes without the extra commentaries etc, what a big loss) for $2-$3US, a fraction of the cost we pay. Obviously, taking into consideration how much the average citizen of China makes, that's a lot for them. But relative to our $15+ DVDs, even if we had to not only buy the DVD in China but pay for shipping back here, it would be cheaper to buy it in China.

      So basically, we have region codes to ensure the distribution model of the movie industry works without interference from us pesky consumers being able to expect a price reasonable to us while still being profitable to them. It allows them to choose who's wallets they can pick more without fearing the usual consequences of supply and demand. If we can only get DVDs from one place at one inflated price, we have to go that route.

      Ask yourselves... if selling DVDs for $2-$3US was not profitable enough, why would they even bother selling DVDs at such prices in places like China? While you may be prompted to say "to fight back against piracy, they are willing to take a loss", but take a moment to think of all the logical flaws with that, including the fact that by lowering their prices they also make it cheaper for those that pirate there to make copies for even cheaper and still sell them for less than legit DVDs. They would simply get out of that market if selling DVDs at that price was a 'loss' to them. Much the same way Apple will get out of France if iPods become a loss there soon.

      While CATO isn't a think-tank I tend to agree with on many issues, I found their take on DRM and such very insightful. The article was carried on /. yesterday but here is the link again in case anyone's interested. They have quite a few explanations and analogies, including a better explanation of why we have region codes than I've provided here.

    5. Re:Apple responds to French DRM legislation by LordVader717 · · Score: 1

      Ask yourselves... if selling DVDs for $2-$3US was not profitable enough, why would they even bother selling DVDs at such prices in places like China?

      They try to maximize profits by selling content they have already produced (primarily for a different market). But selling them for 15$ just wouldn't work there, so they are prepared to sell them for less (still making profit though).
      If they were to treat their market globally, they would have to set a uniform price. That would mean they would have to pay the chinese workers in their factories more so that they could afford their products (oh noes!!), and accept lower profit margins from their US and European customers (double oh noes).

      By isolating the different markets, they can screw everyone.

    6. Re:Apple responds to French DRM legislation by Perky_Goth · · Score: 1

      You say that like it's a bad thing. The only thing that keeps DRM off our backs is the infighting between all the different interests that disregard what the public wants: the end of that crap.
      It's either that or a bloody revolution further down the line.

  17. Fedora Installation by deek · · Score: 1

    From previous experience, the Fedora installation has been painfully slow. You can see the (lack of) activity when it's copying over packages from the CDROM. It copies the package, installs it to the hard drive, copies another package, installs that, and so on.

    It would be soooo much faster if it actually made use of parallel processes. One process copying from the CDROM, and another installing to the hard drive when the package is available. I mean, how hard can it be?! I've written perl scripts which do that and more.

    Anyway, I hope that Fedora 5 has improved this, but looking at the review, I don't think it's happened.

    1. Re:Fedora Installation by srn_test · · Score: 1

      Do it over NFS. It takes about 10 minutes to install a machine from start to finish that way.

    2. Re:Fedora Installation by Theovon · · Score: 1

      There are many situations where you want to either complete something totally or not at all. That's why some installers copy a load of packages and then install them. It's also faster to copy things linearly off the CD onto the HD and then work with them. Error recovery is easier when you serialize things. Also, in some cases, the CD and HD will compete for access to a PATA bus, making parallel slower than serial.

    3. Re:Fedora Installation by Illbay · · Score: 2, Informative
      PREFACE: We COULD be looking at a hardward problem here, but...

      This is the first time since I've been using Fedora Core (and I've used it since Core 1) that I failed to be able to upgrade my server from the DVD-ROM.

      I don't know what the deal was with it. At first it would "hang" at various stages of the install. Then, my system didn't seem to recognize the DVD as "bootable."

      Finally, I tried a Yum upgrade, but it's just too soon after release for that--I actually had an easier time getting the DVD-R image via Bittorrent than using Yum. As it was, all the mirrors timed out--too busy.

      FINALLY, I was able to follow this guy's recipe for setting the DVD up as a Yum repository, and that worked like a charm. I was even able to rsync the "updates" from kernel.org.

      One HUGE saving grace though: For some reason, when I upgraded to FC4 last year, I completely lost X on my server. I have been running everything from the command line--not really that big a deal, but I couldn't even use remote X to get a graphical desktop. Puzzling.

      Well, after the upgrade to FC5 as described above, *voila*! X is back! I now have that beautiful now Gnome desktop that FC5 has been getting raves for. It's just nice to have.

      Anyway, that's the report from here.

      --
      Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
    4. Re:Fedora Installation by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1
      From previous experience, the Fedora installation has been painfully slow. You can see the (lack of) activity when it's copying over packages from the CDROM. It copies the package, installs it to the hard drive, copies another package, installs that, and so on.

      NetBSD does this in five minutes or less with tar xvfz. Its no big deal. The packages can be installed when the tar files are made, not when they are extracted.

    5. Re:Fedora Installation by demon · · Score: 1

      I've netinstalled Fedora more times than I care to count. It's not the fastest, but it's not bad with a local mirror. It's not as dog slow as, say, SuSE; netinstalling it is about as mind numbing as watching paint dry.

      --

      Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
      Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
  18. Jeeezzz.. by jd · · Score: 2, Funny

    You'll be telling us next that we should go round to France and collectively punish the French pirate babes by spanking them, or something. You're weird.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    1. Re:Jeeezzz.. by babbling · · Score: 1

      Do you want me to tell you to do that?

    2. Re:Jeeezzz.. by Scarletdown · · Score: 1
      You'll be telling us next that we should go round to France and collectively punish the French pirate babes by spanking them, or something.


      Count me in on this matey! 'Tis much too perilous for one person to go it alone.

      We can call this campaign Operation Grail-Shaped Beacon.

      --
      This space unintentionally left blank.
    3. Re:Jeeezzz.. by Fred_A · · Score: 1

      And then, the oral sex !

      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
  19. Brittanica's problem isn't accuracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm willing to accept that Brittanica has perfect accuracy. It's accuracy has never troubled me. That isn't its problem.

    I'm sitting on my comfy chair in the living room. On my right hand I have my laptop. The encyclopedia is sitting in the book case on my left side. I could reach out and get ten or so of the volumes without leaving my chair. Even so, I don't think any of the encyclopedia has been opened in a couple of years. For sure it hasn't been consulted this year. More and more I find my google searches including the word 'wiki'. (The wiki entries almost never appear near the top of a search unless I include the word 'wiki'.) I am almost never disappointed by the wiki articles.

    In light of the above, my question is: "Who needs Brittanica?"

    1. Re:Brittanica's problem isn't accuracy by The+Wicked+Priest · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I find I *do* get Wikipedia results near the top for many of my queries lately... and I've started going there directly and skipping Google sometimes. I agree, I'm rarely disappointed. If I consult several sources, Wikipedia is usually the best.

      More than that: Wikipedia is what Hypertext was originally meant to me. (See... well, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertext ) And boy is it fun!

      Britannica may or may not be more reliable for the subjects it covers, but it's also limited in scope. Would Britannica have an article about Matisyahu, for example? Britannica's front page claims 120,000 articles; Wikipedia, over a million, just for the English edition.

      --
      Share and Enjoy: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    2. Re:Brittanica's problem isn't accuracy by balls199 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A big problem for Wikipedia, that Brittanica addresses, is it's dynamic nature. Since the article in Nature, I'm sure all of the Wikipedia articles in question have been vandalized, fixed, vandalized again, likely fixed again, more information has been added, some information removed, and reorganized. The accuracy of the information in a Wikipedia article depends on the exact moment you view it.

      Brittanica articles, on the other hand, remain the same for longer periods of time. Which means, it will remain accurate, and well organized longer, but, at the same time, errors will also exist longer than Wikipedia.

      My point is, Wikipedia can claim also claim the Nature article as invalid, since the articles are constantly changing. The Nature article was doomed from the beginning.

      I've mentioned the vandalizism problem on Wikipedia several times on Slashdot. My suggestion is to move to the opensource model of article development where anyone can contribute, but only people who have proven themselves can "release" articles to the public. I've finally finished a prototype which can be found at: www.lohipedia.com (Note: there are still many bugs to work out, and it's ugly). The goal is to find that optimum point of user contribution versus article control where the best article possible can be produced.

  20. Love the quality of spin by hayden · · Score: 3, Informative
    I think this comment from one of the engineers at ArsDigita directed to one of the VC suits that flew the company into the side of a mountain is appropriate:

    "You talk like a press release."
    -- David Rodriguez

    He was also "laid off" due to economic pressure (ie the new directors turned a profitable $20 million a year in revenue company into something that burned through twice that amount in less than a year before imploding). If you want to see the whole story it's here.

    --
    Nerd: Derogatory term typically directed at anybody with a lower Slashdot ID than you.
  21. It gives them a short-term advantage. by jd · · Score: 1
    However, it could be problematic in the longer-term. With anti-trust appeals in Europe and South Korea, it's going to be very hard for Microsoft to claim to be playing fair, if they're seen to be maliciously tampering with the approvals process. They don't even have to be tampering, and the ISO process doesn't have to have anything to do with existing cases. If Microsoft is believed to be acting in a willfully anti-competitive manner, the appeals judges are less likely to be sympathetic. This is really bad timing, on Microsoft's part.


    But what about America? Microsoft has employees in Washington State, but it's not a major factor for Massechusetts. If Mass. residents are influenced, in the November elections - and it's a big if - then it'll be over cost savings (if significant). Other than that, there really won't be any noticable impact until after any decisions by ISO.


    If ISO opts for Microsoft's format and the Government of the time is much more strict on anti-competitive actions, we might see some DOJ action, but not unless or until.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  22. This is America by Paranoia+Agent · · Score: 5, Funny

    Call it "Freedom DRM".

    1. Re:This is America by gstoddart · · Score: 1
      Call it "Freedom DRM".

      Yeah, but sooner or later that just becomes absurd.

      I mean, imagine ... "Freedom Ticklers" (or a "Freedom Safe" ;-) ... "Freedom Kissing" ... "Freedom Toast" ... "Freedom Cuisine" ... "Say Chowduh Freedom-y".

      =)
      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  23. S.O.P. for Microsoft by erroneus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    They somehow think "competing" involves impeding the competitors rather than simply trying to be superior. And I think that's the crux of most people's problem with Microsoft.

    I am referring to, of course, Microsoft's strange participation in the subcommittee involved in getting ODF ISO approved. They declined any and all participation in creating ODF and yet somehow they are involved in getting it ISO approved? Microsoft is now something along the lines of the fox guarding the henhouse.

    And when I discuss Microsoft's "competitive" activities, I tend to think of elementary school kids running the 100 yard dash where Microsoft, instead of simply running as fast as it can, resorts to tying the laces of the shoes of other kids or to tripping them in some fashion.

    Although "Competing" and "Impeding" rhyme nicely enough, they are certainly VERY different approaches when trying to win and one of them is often cause for legal retaliation.

    1. Re:S.O.P. for Microsoft by g2devi · · Score: 1

      > They declined any and all participation in creating ODF
      > and yet somehow they are involved in getting it ISO approved?

      That isn't necessarily suspicous. What is suspicious is that they are going to try to fast-track a competing "standard" and refuse to implement ODF even as an export. This is quite clearly conflict of interest.

    2. Re:S.O.P. for Microsoft by npsimons · · Score: 1

      And when I discuss Microsoft's "competitive" activities, I tend to think of elementary school kids running the 100 yard dash where Microsoft, instead of simply running as fast as it can, resorts to tying the laces of the shoes of other kids or to tripping them in some fashion.

      Actually, the image that comes to my mind any time I think of Microsoft "competing" is an ice skater hiring someone to club another ice skater on the knees. Hence the saying that "Microsoft is the Tonya Harding of the software world."
  24. Britannica... by tktk · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Was Britannica ever a big deal? I used it in elementary school and stopped once I got to junior high. In high school, our teachers specifically told use not to use encyclopedias for our papers. And this was in the 80s.

    1. Re:Britannica... by Rank_Tyro · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Britannica is feeling REALLY threatened by wikipedia.

        Britannica pays over 4,000 contributors and editors, and only prints a new version every couple of years. Wikipedia, has way more contributors, and publishes almost DAILY, without paying for the research.

      The hype about no one being accountable for any of the information as well as the uproar about recent political attacks on certain entries are all designed to try to get people to distrust Wikipedia and embrace Britannica as the "One TrueReference."

      No encyclopedia should ever be used as anything other than a quick synopsis and or reference. Britanica sniping at Wikipedia for accuracy and integrety is just really amusing.

      --
      Today's show is brought to you by the number 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0: 25
    2. Re:Britannica... by westlake · · Score: 1
      Was Britannica ever a big deal?

      The Britannica has been in print since 1768.

      Albert Einstein, on Space-Time, Sigmund Freud on Psychoanalysis, Bruno Bettelheim, on the psychology of the Nazi death camps, Thomas Malthus, on population, Lawrence of Arabia, on guerrilla warfare, George Bernard Shaw on Socialism, W.E.B Du Bois...

      Men and women of extraordinary accomplishment, masters of English prose, summing up a generation of scholarship for the curious reader. That is the Britannica at its best.

    3. Re:Britannica... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wikipedia publishes almost daily? Dude, updates to wikipedia are being published many times each SECOND

    4. Re:Britannica... by SteeldrivingJon · · Score: 1

      "Britannica pays over 4,000 contributors and editors, and only prints a new version every couple of years."

      They update their online and disk-based content several times a year.

      Wikipedia may "update" more often, but most of those "updates" are the equivalent of the rough drafts produced in-house at Britannica. Wikipedia does its edits and corrections openly, during which time readers can be subjected to crappy content. Britannica doesn't subject readers to half-baked content.

      --
      September 2011: Looking for Cocoa/iOS work in Boston area Cocoa Programmer Quincy, MA
  25. You actually believe that? by Ahnteis · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And for some reason people still believe that line.

    Yet Apple refuses to license (for more money!) their DRM and let someone ELSE sale music that will play on the ipod.

    They're obviously either making money or planning to make money from music sales.

    1. Re:You actually believe that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And for some reason people still believe that line.

      Yet Apple refuses to license (for more money!) their DRM and let someone ELSE sale music that will play on the ipod.

      They're obviously either making money or planning to make money from music sales.


      It's all about control with their fairplay being the only DRM that works on the iPod they control the negotiations with the labels. Also, with the DRM they control the consumer, forcing them to buy only the iPod as their mp3 player.

    2. Re:You actually believe that? by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      From Apple's perspective, the ability to control the content in the store -- which allows them to preserve the "user experience" and add features like podcasts and videos and whatnot -- is worth much more than the amount of money anyone would ever offer to license FairPlay.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  26. State sponsored gambling! by repetty · · Score: 1

    >> Ho ho ho. "State sponsored piracy!"

    Great. We already have state sponsored gambling. I think that leaves state sponsored whoring. Maybe the more politically savvy can update us on that.

    --Richard

  27. It's an evil european ploy to destroy america! by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

    "State sponsored piracy!" I like it. It has a nice ring to it.

    The French have a history of using corsairs ; )

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  28. Let the beatings begin. by Eevee · · Score: 2, Informative

    The term you want is privateer. Privateers had letters of marque which legitimized their attacks as being sponsored by a government. (Except for the Spanish, who had a habit of refusing to honor letters of marque and just hanged them as common pirates.) Buccaneers, on the other hand, were pirates who started out in the barbecue business.

    No, seriously. Buccaneers were originally hunters who sold cooked meat, grilled over an open fire, to passing ships. Eventually, an enterprising band of buccaneers realized that the passing ships were poorly armed and captured the ship--much more profitable than selling barbecue.

    1. Re:Let the beatings begin. by From+A+Far+Away+Land · · Score: 1

      Thank you, after I posted I realized it was something else, but every other "eer" word I could think of I knew wasn't correct. I was expecting at least one Tampa Bay NFL joke by now, so I guess I'll have to make one:

      How does a Tampa Bay Buckaneer pirate music?
      He moves to France and uses DRM free iTunes.

    2. Re:Let the beatings begin. by sh00z · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the vocabulary lesson! JBased on your links, I got curious about other pirate lingo, and discovered that "freebooter" and "filibuster" both have the same etymology. I'll never be able to look at Congress the same way again...

  29. Not really by jd · · Score: 1
    And he is indeed correct. In 1770, there were people taken to court in England for theft for freeing slaves. The complaint was on the basis that the slaves were being taken between countries in which slavery was legal and that these should hold sway (making the freeing of slaves the deprivation of recognized property and therefore theft) even though England itself did not recognize slavery any longer.


    It got to the House of Lords, where it was ruled that the laws of other nations were of no consequence in this matter and that the laws of England held sway for those on English soil, no matter what their status in other lands.


    You cannot take this analogy much further, as Free Software is not a Constitutional or legal obligation in any country (yet) - but if it were, then "closed source" that passed through such lands could reasonably be Opened, and the argument that this is automatically "bad" or "evil" is clearly false.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  30. You could try their website by SteeldrivingJon · · Score: 2, Interesting


    They do have it all on their website, you know. I think you have to pay for full access, but it's a lot cheaper than a set of encyclopedias.

    Or you could buy the circa-$50 disk version, and install that, if you're running Windows or using a PPC Mac (as of yet their product doesn't run on Intel Macs due to some component developed by a third party which hasn't been made universal). Then you'd have access to it all without even needing to be online.

    --
    September 2011: Looking for Cocoa/iOS work in Boston area Cocoa Programmer Quincy, MA
    1. Re:You could try their website by ClamIAm · · Score: 1

      I find it ironic that an encyclopedia requires a certain operating system.

  31. Mandriva by Bios_Hakr · · Score: 1

    This is a perfect reason why people should be happy with what they have.

    This guy had a great distro. A lot of people cut their teeth on it. A lot more used it religously. He had a great user base.

    But, could he be happy? No! He *needed* to go public. He *needed* the money so that he could grow his company. He *needed* money to compete with RedHat and MS in the global market for server domination.

    Look, I have no pity for you. You saw RedHat (and a lot of others) get rich in the late 90s. You wanted a slice. You knew that you were taking a risk.

    Now, when you are the boss and you decide to let a Board of Directors come in and run things, you are no longer the boss.

    That kinda defeats the purpose of starting your own company, doesn't it?

    On the up side, just wait a few years. By then, Debian will be looking for a new project manager.

    Oh, and if, by some chance, you read this, know that I really do hope things get better for you.

    --
    I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
  32. standards... by ecalkin · · Score: 1

    a HUGH amount of the reason that TCP/IP won that battle is because it was an open standard.

    1. Re:standards... by NutscrapeSucks · · Score: 1

      OSI was a more open standard. OSI was developed by an international consortium, while TCP/IP was a loosely documented by informal RFCs traded between US Govt researchers.

      I think the OSI/IP comparison is apt ... ODF is more "official", but OpenXML has the vendor support.

      --
      Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
    2. Re:standards... by rubies · · Score: 1

      That's exactly the situation being replicated here. Standards compliance is nice but usually a distraction, especially where the incumbent "standard" is so common. It will take a lot of prying of Microsoft Word from cold, dead hands (whatever you think of the product) to make the average worker even *worry* about the file standard they're saving in. Mandated, "on high" pronouncements of products you have to use are destined for failure. In the places I worked, TCP/IP was preferred because it was the "protocol of last resort" - pretty much all the squabbling vendors at least had a marginal version of it available. OSI was just a PITA (and the PC version were especially woeful when you had to try to load the damn thing into upper memory blocks etc.) To me the whole "open document" thing is just a repeat of exactly the same scenario. Don't get me wrong, anything that starts to undermine the Microsoft Monopoly would be useful, but they're laughing with glee back at Redmond at the theatre they've created which is now hindering the development efforts of all their competitors while they try to implement this new, design by committee "standard". They win again.

  33. Different by JanneM · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Fired" is different, though. It implies you were canned because you were incompetent, or because you were engaged in something illegal, fraudulent or against company rules. You are fired when the problem is you, in other words, and presumably the company will need to hire or promote a replacement.

    Most other terms (like the ones you list) is about the job disappearing. You were not doing anything wrong, but the job you were doing is either no longer necessary, or too expensive to continue doing at the current manpower level. You may be excellent at the job you were doing, but the result is no longer worth the expense for the company.

    --
    Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
  34. Great game. by XanC · · Score: 1
    Check out the remake:

    http://wcuniverse.sourceforge.net

  35. Because... by XanC · · Score: 1

    Teachers say that because encyclopedias are too good; kids would get all the answers in one place and they're done. They limit encyclopedia use not because they're worthless, but to handicap the student.

    1. Re:Because... by AnyoneEB · · Score: 1

      No, the problem is with citing encyclopedias. Instead, you may read the article to get a general idea of whatever you are looking up and get further informations from the sources listed by the article.

      --
      Centralization breaks the internet.
    2. Re:Because... by mvdwege · · Score: 2, Informative

      Nonsense. Teachers forbid the citing of encyclopedias because they are at best secondary sources. And since the academic norm is to only consider primary sources valid, it is merely common sense to instill that norm as soon as possible.

      Mart
      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
  36. In America DRM Frees you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In Neo-America, DRM Frees you!

    In Soviet Russia, DRM restricts you...huh? ah, In Russia, you restrict DRM?

    In France, you free DRM?

  37. Britannica response by teslatug · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's funny, Britannica says the reviewers did not provide any sources for their ascertions, and then they go and say for every criticism "We do not accept this." Well, as long as the all knowing Britannica does not accept it, it must be invalid. All bow to the true keepers of knowledge.

    1. Re:Britannica response by eekygeeky · · Score: 1

      You cleverly leave out the part where the reasons stated by Britannica for not accepting a particular criticism were *correct*.

      They are perfectly right to pick nits with these "errors" and have managed to make a fine defense of themselves.

      the criticisms of omission, misattribution and missing context are startling on a number of levels; somebody should lose their job for pulling that kind of bullshit.

      the criticisms vis weight of errors is also valid, and this was pointed out and generally agreed upon in the original hoopla about this "study", which more rightly should have been called a scholarly reveiw.

      this is a HUGE black eye for Nature.

    2. Re:Britannica response by WereTiger · · Score: 1

      Did you actually read the full article?

      I don't think I've read such a thoroughly well put together response to criticism in my life. I think it would be irresponsible simply reduce their reply to "they simply don't agree? what an ego!" when it's more akin to "for X reason, we don't acknowledge this criticism."

      --
      If you're hearing rhetoric about Linux, open source, or Mac and everyone's bashing Microsoft, you've found Slashdot.
    3. Re:Britannica response by r3m0t · · Score: 1
      Did you actually read the full article?

      I don't think I've read such a thoroughly well put together response to criticism in my life. I think it would be irresponsible simply reduce their reply to "they simply don't agree? what an ego!" when it's more akin to "for X reason, we don't acknowledge this criticism."

      But sometimes, X reason was no more than "we have contacted the original author, (name), and he does not agree with the reviewer." I mean, so what??
  38. no, encyclopedias are not the one-stop source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When you grow up and do real research you learn that first-hand sources are the most important, and then journal articles, and then books with the most recent work being worth particular attention. At the very bottom of the barrel is the encyclopedia. What an encyclopedia can do is give you a brief, broad survey of a subject to get you going. If your research consists only of copying an encyclopedia article, then you are wasting everybody's time: the information is too old, too general, and too shallow.

    I recently visited my father and his entire set of encyclopedia Britannica was in boxes in the driveway. Not even the Salvation Army would take them. Some customer who happened to be at the Sally Ann said he was interested but he never showed up even though they were free.

  39. Not to be an appologist or anything, but... by tlambert · · Score: 1

    I expect that someone in the French government will talk to someone technical before this becomes law there. If they do, I expect they will scrap the plan.

    What they are effectively demanding is a common DRM standard, and anyone who doesn't play by having another mechanism will have to also implement the standard mechanism, and permit transcoding into that mechanism. And this will mean more restrictions, not fewer.

    To me, this looks like a ploy backed by someone who wants their DRM to become standard, but can't achieve this by making products that people want to buy, so they want to force everyone to adopt their DRM or die. And I expect that the DRM will be the most draconian DRM imaginable, since conversion will be viral in terms of supporting more restrictions.

    Transcoding data from one DRM format to another is problematic, if you want the DRM to continue to be effective. The problem is that there is a potential impedence mismatch in license terms.

    First, what if I'm translating music from a format that permits only a single copy, and no burning to CDROM, to (to take the current example), the iTunes format, which permits installation on multiple computers, an infinite number of iPods, and burning to a CD multiple times, based on a playlist?

    If this happens, my only real option to maintain the licensing restrictions properly is to use one type of DRM, or to choose the most restriction union of both sets of DRM. So the *most* restrictive DRM will become viral, and limit what you can do with anyone's DRM.

    Second, how many times - how many different instances/formats - am I permitted to do this transcoding? If the answer is "infinite", then there's effectively no DRM. Again, the most restrictive DRM wins.

    Third, how would this impact limited node-locking? With iTunes, you are node-locked to a limited number of nodes, but those nodes can change over time - you are permitted to authorize and deauthorize nodes. With this capability, you could authorize any number of nodes, one at a time, to use the transcoding capability to copy from a limited node-locked format into an unlimited node-locked format. So say goodbye to the "limited" in "limited node-locking". Again, a virus.

    People have said that Apple's DRM is tolerable - and they've said that any DRM is intolerable. For the first group, you would take away most of what permits Apple's DRM to be tolerable. For the second group - they're not going to be happy anyway, as long as DRM is permitted at all, and that's not one of the options on the table here.

    (PS: I'm mostly in the second group - I think DRM is the moral equivalent of telling your customer you don't trust them).

    -- Terry

    1. Re:Not to be an appologist or anything, but... by mrchaotica · · Score: 1
      I think DRM is the moral equivalent of telling your customer you don't trust them.
      That's the least of the problem. The real issue is that they can't do that because it defeats the purpose of copyright in the first place (which is to promote the Public Domain) -- yet they're doing it anyway. That's what's immoral!
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    2. Re:Not to be an appologist or anything, but... by Fred_A · · Score: 1
      I expect that someone in the French government will talk to someone technical before this becomes law there. If they do, I expect they will scrap the plan.


      I expect you've never met anyone involved in drafting laws. Talking to someone technical certanly isn't part of the standard process. And it's certainly not specific to France either in case you wondered.

      To me, this looks like a ploy backed by someone who wants their DRM to become standard, but can't achieve this by making products that people want to buy, so they want to force everyone to adopt their DRM or die.


      Ok, So I didn't RTFA (so what, sue me, is this /. or what ?). OTOH I'm French so I did keep an eye on the issue.

      The purpose of the law is that once someone buys content online, it shouldn't be bound to specific hardware. Especially with DRM. That is if DRM is involved, one should be allowed to disable it (and *not* to switch to another DRM scheme -- I don't know where you got that from) in order to move content to any player or to a DRM-less player (like burning audio to a CD-R).

      Anyway this hasn't been turned into a law yet. We'll see what happens in a month or two.
      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
  40. Ethical statement from RMS.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "If you don't consider making code proprietary to be ethical, you clearly cannot consider liberating the code to be unethical"

    I don't think ethics enters into it either way. The fruit of your effort is yours. Period. The effort of others is theirs. Period. The keeping or giving is a personal decision, and should be respected. Period. "Freeing", or "Proprietary" when used by the opposing party is wishwords for "why can't I have yours"?

    1. Re:Ethical statement from RMS.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ????
      Do you pay taxes?

    2. Re:Ethical statement from RMS.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ????
      Do you receive a benefit for things paid for by taxes?

    3. Re:Ethical statement from RMS.... by kasparov · · Score: 1
      The fruit of your effort is yours. Period. The effort of others is theirs. Period.

      Not to be coy or anything, but no one creates anything on their own. We all build everything on the shoulders of others. This isn't to demean or take away from personal accomplishment, but it would be egotistical to think that we didn't at least get some help/benefit from society and the general pool of public knowledge in our creation of a work. Surely, at least an argument could be made that society does, in fact, have some right to expect to get some knowledge returned to the pool (preferably before 80 years after the death of the creator of the work)?

      --
      There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
    4. Re:Ethical statement from RMS.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The keeping or giving is a personal decision, and should be respected.
      It's not the "keeping or giving" we are concerned with, it's the "giving and forbiding".
    5. Re:Ethical statement from RMS.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While you make a valid point. I want you to see the double-standard that people employ. I'm assuming you have a job (or had in the past), and the output of those jobs required the efforts of others to make possible. Now is society entitled to the fruits of your efforts? If not then why not? What's that you say? You got compensated for your efforts, therefore it's ok for society to have it?* Well why is it when artists and intellectuals ask the same, they're seen as greedy and the bad guys? How about if we take the employer out of the picture and your trying to sell automotive modifications to the public? Now is society entitled to your work by using the same logic as before? Standing on the shoulders of giants ignores the fact that there wouldn't be shoulders without the willing participation of some members of society. Not the coercion of society saying you give me, or else... The founding fathers understood that point, and elected to make a contract with the creative members of society. That was the intent upon which all copyrighted material is released, and while one may have a point about those who violate the contract. I'd bring to your attention that the majority of copyright violations happen within the first year of it's release (and in one example it was before it was even released). That's why the "terms are too long" argument rings hollow.

      *Never mind the small loophole that your employer is the one compensating you, not society.

    6. Re:Ethical statement from RMS.... by kasparov · · Score: 1

      I do feel that artists and intellectuals should be compensated for their works, but for limited times. I'm also not saying that individuals should not be able to profit monetarily from their work. However, I do feel that an argument could be made that society should not be prevented from using parts of their (or my) work to create new works. It will be interesting to see how it all turns out, as how we handle the "digital age" where copies of "products" are virtually free to create will show a trend as to how we might deal with the potential post-scarcity economy that could be brought about by future technological breakthroughs in nano technology/molecular manufacturing.

      --
      There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
  41. State sponsored Whoring! by xenn · · Score: 0
    Yeah, they have that to a degree in New Zealand.

    Prositutes have to pay tax (and have legitimate deductions for things like condoms and lube), and there is a Prositutes Collective (though that may not be government run) looking after their rights and working conditions. Whore houses are legal, and pay taxes like any other 'service', reasonably freely advertisable, even street walkers have rights.

    ...I guess it's not exactly sponsored, unless you count the tax deductions...

  42. Troubling statement from RMS....Social Contract by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Further, when it comes to discussing the ethical basis of copyright, I think it bears repeating that the reason we have copyright at all in the United States is to "promote the progress of science and the useful arts". I'm not sure if you noticed, but it has been a trend lately amongst many technology and entertainment companies to injure the progress of science and the useful arts freely as long as they think it will keep them in the money. That includes activities such as subverting international standards organizations and activities such as subverting national governments so that they retroactively extend copyright, effectively "stealing IP", to use your terms, from all of humanity (or at least all of that country's citizens)."

    Well let's tackle this from the top.

    First of all you can't have promotion of science or arts without willing participants. Anything else reeks of artistic or intellectual slavery. Second IP is NOT the exclusive domain of corporations. An awful lot of slashdotters forget that simple fact in their zeal. Third the "theft"* you accuse corporations of is happening (not all mind you, just some). However any viable society has legitimate means for effecting change. The problem I have is that they're not being used, and just as bad people are making excuses for why they're not even going to try to use them.

    *I prefer to think of it as a violation of a social contract (and don't any of you smart-asses give me that "but I didn't sign anything nonsense")

    1. Re:Troubling statement from RMS....Social Contract by ninjaz · · Score: 1
      First of all you can't have promotion of science or arts without willing participants. Anything else reeks of artistic or intellectual slavery.

      If the participants are willing without a state-granted monopoly over their programs, it's not slavery. As a counterexample, staking off entire classes of "ideas" with patents reeks of privatized water in Bolivia where people were being prohibited from collecting rainwater, as it was deemed a violation the state-granted monolopy on water distribution.

      Then there is the other problem of copyright when applied to software for which no source code is supplied: It's not advancing the arts in the same way the written word was, as what was actually written is not on offer. It is illegal also to break DRM, which further restricts that, especially applied to media with a lifespan which is shorter than the duration of copyright. So, the side of the exchange where the copyrighted material is released to the public in exchange for the temporary monopoly never actually happens.

      Second IP is NOT the exclusive domain of corporations. An awful lot of slashdotters forget that simple fact in their zeal.

      I wasn't implying that copyright was limited to being used by corporations. I was discussing the issue brought up by the parent comment, which was the relative scare value of RMS versus the standard big business stance. As I said, I think that a company is much better off using Free Software than the alternative.

      Anyway, when it comes to "stealing IP", Microsoft, for example, isn't the one with the clean track record. Remember Stacker? Or their partners they keep for long enough to get the trade secrets and run? Comparatively, RMS seems ultra-low-risk to me.

      Third the "theft"* you accuse corporations of is happening (not all mind you, just some). However any viable society has legitimate means for effecting change. The problem I have is that they're not being used, and just as bad people are making excuses for why they're not even going to try to use them.

      Well, isn't that what we are doing here? Slashdot played a big role in getting Free Software and Open Source being seen in the mainstream. The problem is more cultural than it is political. Helping to screw heads on straight here can end up having benefits down the road.

      Simply writing a letter to a senator isn't going to do it. You don't explain with reason in politics, you explain with numbers, whether it be a number on a check, or a number in a poll. Reason is what you use with people.

      *I prefer to think of it as a violation of a social contract (and don't any of you smart-asses give me that "but I didn't sign anything nonsense")
      Turnabout is fair play. It's the "IP Lobby" who insists on using the word "theft" for unauthorized copying.
  43. what's troubling? by penguin-collective · · Score: 1

    I'm sorry you fail to grasp the concept that one can simultaneously (1) consider a law unethical, and (2) still act in accordance to that law, either out of ethical or out of practical considerations.

    Personally, I consider current copyright and patent law to be unethical, but I still obey them.

  44. Fedora Core 5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ah, Fedora. Every distribution I have tried so far has been half baked. This time will be different! I don't have the energy to try FC5, but I probably will.

    BTW despite the stupid name, Ubuntu doesn't suck.

  45. Mod up the funniest AC post ever! by ebyrob · · Score: 1

    That has to be the funniest thing I've heard in a long time!

  46. *shurg* by everphilski · · Score: 1

    40 minutes in a VMware virtual machine for me ... real box would have been quicker. That's respectable for 5 CD's.

  47. blind by twitter · · Score: 1
    It IS misguided and unethical to, say, republish someone's book on the Internet for free under the pretense that books should be free for everyone, or to believe in that stance. It has nothing to do with scientific papers and everything to do with the moral rights of an author.

    Do you consider libraries immoral?

    The whole purpose of copyright, if you have not read the constitution recently, is to encourage the useful arts and literature for the common good. That is, to increase the public domain by making publication more profitable than usual for a limited time by exclusivity. Exclusivity in itself was considered immoral by the constitution's authors and still has a bad taste, despite the efforts of large publishers to change your opinion.

    You understand RMS less than you understand your own laws.

    It's akin to saying that it's not unethical to steal TVs from shop windows, because TVs should be free.

    Ohhh, I see that I've been trolled.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  48. then it is a bad mistake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the "license" and copyright are to be considered grown up legal documents, they need grown up names on them.

    I wasn't aware of this. It's a rather large long term mistake if this is the case. No one has any idea what the mysterious future holds, other than surprises. We can already see what happens with "abandonedware" when the original owner can't be found. At some time in the future, something just totally weird could happen that might affect the Kernel. Not having all the names is extremely boneheaded and borderline naieve.

  49. No, it very much isn't. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Um, you appear to be misunderstanding the parent.

    Abandonware requires you to get permission from the copyright holder to use their work.

    All GPLed software specifically and explicitly grants you the right to use that work without contacting the authors, so long as you adhere to the terms of the license.

    How could you possibly have a problem with not being able to contact a copyright holder when you already have a license that says you don't need to?

  50. screwup.com by The+Pim · · Score: 1

    As someone who worked at a successful start-up when that movie came out, I have to say that company didn't do a single thing right. (Except for having a good idea, but ideas are cheap.) I had no sympathy for any of them.

    --

    The evaluation of an action as 'practical' . . . depends on what it is that one wishes to practice.
  51. Steve Jobs == Disney by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Interesting
    How anyone could seriously believe a disney man would hate DRM is beyond me. Well not really beyond me. I am too old and bitter and cynical and paranoid for that. People are stupid.

    MS is doing DRM but also fights it. As a gigantic player it knows deep down that piracy hasn't exactly hurt it. MS software is pirated to hell and back yet the billions keep rolling in and it controls the OS and office software markets. Could there be a link? That software that is easy to pirate gets used a lot so that is what people know so companies that need to decide on what to buy choose the package that people are familiar with at home from their pirated version?

    That because MS is what everyone knows when people buy a new PC they don't mind that MS software is installed "for free" giving MS a nice steady stream of hazzle free revenue (no messy boxes to sell) as long as people buy new pc's?

    Then their is Sony, a favorite target for the anti-drm crowd and they certainly screwed up badly enough with their music cd drm debacle but lets not forget that it was sony who gave us unrestricted video recording.

    Yet the hero is Apple who has always maintained the thightest control on its software. Isn't making sure only YOU can make the hardware that runs YOUR software and sell them bundled only the best DRM? Go ahead. Pirate Mac OS X. What are you going to use it for? You need to buy a Mac to run it on. Oh sure, the paid updates are pirated but the main revenue source is safe.

    Apple has also been very active in trying to get movie drm in place.

    The whole story that Steve Jobs only did DRM for iTunes to keep the record industry happy just doesn't ring true to me.

    What I think that Steve Jobs has done is realize that you need to take baby steps when tackling a difficult subject.

    iTunes DRM isn't the least he could get away with regarding the music industry.

    iTunes DRM is the most he could get away with regarding the paying public.

    He knew that existing DRM crippled music stores were not succeeding so he added as much DRM as he could without scaring off customers.

    It worked.

    Steve Jobs is very good at that. He knows exactly how far to push something that it is still accepted. iPod's really ain't all the great. Every other MP3 player would be slammed for not working as a straight HD (you need itunes to put songs onto it in any meaningfull way) and slammed even worse for renaming your songs.

    Same with the price. It is just not high enough to piss people off. Just high enough to generate a shitload of cash but not high enough to be seen as insanely overpriced.

    Same with Apple PC's. Every apple story has comments about their bad service even going so far as that when you order a Apple with more memory all of a sudden it is a custom build and you loose a lot of warranty. Dell would never get away with it but Steve Jobs just judged it right that Apple fans defend that a PC build entirely by Apple is still a custom build because you told them to plug in more memory and therefore you don't deserve full warranty.

    Steve Jobs is more about DRM then any other playing in the market. Check out his speeches and proposals. If he has his way we will have trusted computing shoved down our throath and media DRM'ed till we choke on it.

    Just for now he isn't big enough to rely force the issue and MS who could is still sitting on the fence.

    There are some people at MS warning that in a DRM and trusted computing world there would be very little value to a open PC. If I can't do anything with my media anyway do I need anything more then a console to play it? MS knows that the console market is far harder to dominate then the PC market.

    Killing the PC would be very very silly of MS if they are not 100% sure they are going to be selling everyone the replacement.

    The old slashdot standby "replace Apple with MS/Sony and reread the story" advice still stands.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Steve Jobs == Disney by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MS is doing DRM but also fights it. As a gigantic player it knows deep down that piracy hasn't exactly hurt it. MS software is pirated to hell and back yet the billions keep rolling in and it controls the OS and office software markets. Could there be a link? That software that is easy to pirate gets used a lot so that is what people know so companies that need to decide on what to buy choose the package that people are familiar with at home from their pirated version?

      Microsoft, along with Intel, is one of the big proponents of DRM. It is re-architecting software transfer protocols to add DRM protocols (see MTP and trusted network connections... and that's just two off the top of my head) and is the biggest pusher of Trusted Computing. Need I remind you that DRM is not about controlling data. It's about controlling applications. It's about locking data to particular application(s) -- that are approved and digitally signed by an authorised by the controlling authority. DRM is everything Microsoft has ever dreamed of, because it locks out unapproved code from accessing data. Instant perfect monopoly lock-in without the possiblity of competitors reverse engineering your code -- even if you *gave* them the source, they still wouldn't be able to sign the resulting binary so that the hardware will grant access.

      You are, however, right not to trusted Apple. They've already put trusted computing (hardware DRM) into their Intel Macs.

    2. Re:Steve Jobs == Disney by mkiwi · · Score: 1
      Same with Apple PC's. Every apple story has comments about their bad service even going so far as that when you order a Apple with more memory all of a sudden it is a custom build and you loose a lot of warranty. Dell would never get away with it but Steve Jobs just judged it right that Apple fans defend that a PC build entirely by Apple is still a custom build because you told them to plug in more memory and therefore you don't deserve full warranty.

      That has definately not been my experience from Apple. Apple warrents their products for at least one year (you can buy AppleCare to get more milage). When my expensive display broke, Apple overnighted me a new display, allowing me to return the old one within a week or two at no charge.

      I custom ordered a PowerMac G5 and I have had absolutely no problems with Apple's service, even after two repairs. (The broken parts were custom-configured)

      Also, if you complain about Apple's service, you should complain about every other company's service. Apple scored the highest in a study done over all the major computer manufacturers. I do not know where you get your stories, but they you are citing an unknown third party who may in turn be a third party- not a good way to back up your claims with concrete facts. Unless you have first-hand experience with Apple Support it is best to stay out of the ring.

    3. Re:Steve Jobs == Disney by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 1
      As a gigantic player it knows deep down that piracy hasn't exactly hurt it. MS software is pirated to hell and back yet the billions keep rolling in and it controls the OS and office software markets. Could there be a link? That software that is easy to pirate gets used a lot so that is what people know so companies that need to decide on what to buy choose the package that people are familiar with at home from their pirated version?

      Then how do you explain MS Product Activation?

    4. Re:Steve Jobs == Disney by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Actually, Apple does treat "custom builds" like your G5 differently from "normal" sales -- but not with regards to the warranty. The difference is in the return policy. It's N days for normal sales (where N is 30 or 90 or something), but zero days for custom orders.

      The guy you were responding to wasn't correct, but you weren't either.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  52. MOD PARENT UP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The other day, descriptions of the proposal made it sound like an anti-DMCA-type bill, one that would give buyers of a product the right to bypass DRM for legitimate use. (I don't know if France currently has a DMCA, but that seemed to be the implication.)

    Now it's suddenly about letting record companies and their DRM-using distributors create "interoperable" DRM. It has been a dream of media companies to have interoperable DRM, with the ability to pick from a menu of restrictions.

    So this sounds an awful-lot like a pro-record-company bill either pretending to be, or preempting, a pro-consumer one.

  53. Re:Uhh, a bit of math. by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
    Let's presume, that Apple takes $.25 per itunes sale (I think that the proper number is $.10, but let's be generous). They've just passed 1billion in sales, so we're looking at $250Million in gross profits ... not bad.

    Now, let's look at ipod sales....
    Let's presume that the 1GB shuffle is the 'average' purchase at $120. I have a hard time believing that it cost them more than $60 to make that thing at the volume they're being produced, so that would come to $60 gross profit per ipod (not to mention $95 profit on their $99 leather holders!).

    Now, I'm looking at two MacNN reports that Apple will sell 8million ipods this quarter, and another 12 million ipods in the last half of 2005. That would give a total of over 20 million ipods in the last 9 months. [[ Hmm.. this would give an average of about 50 itunes per ipod.... ]]

    So, 20million ipods times $60 profit per pod, and you have about $1billion gross profit in ipod sales (I doubt my estimates are any better than one digit's significance).

    at least as important as itunes sales.

    --
    Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
  54. Re:Uhh, a bit of math. (reprise) by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
    That last paragraph should have read:
    To that, you need to add the increased Mac sales that have been the 'fallout' from ipod sales, and you'll see why ipod sales are at least as important as itunes sales for apple.

    (( I swear I used the preview button! ))

    --
    Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
  55. Where the f*ck is the "install everything" option? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I tried to install the x86_64 DVD and adding any packages whatsoever to the defaults resulted in the installer crashing. Obviously, they removed the "install everything" option because it exposed a nasty flaw in their installer.

  56. Science without review is Junk Science by olman · · Score: 3, Informative

    http://www.theregister.com/2006/03/23/britannica_w ikipedia_nature_study/ Register has nice write up about it all. Apparently Nature cooked the study in a manner worthy of WMD spinmeisters pre IRAQ invasion.

    And why should anyone be surprised? 14-year-old with too much time on his hands has as much weight in wikipedia as some 50-year-old senior academic in a given subject. More in practice as the said teenager can sit all night making revisions whereas the prof probably has classes and schoolwork to go over..

    1. Re:Science without review is Junk Science by WWWWolf · · Score: 1

      The Register? Every other article slamming "wikifiddlers" for even tiniest of the flaws?

      Believe what you want, but I think they cried wolf a few times too many.

  57. Oh Lord... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I love France more after seeing this video. :)
    You are a good man.

    Also, about the words: What does Anri she mentions have to do with it? Damn football players taking all the Hotties away from us geeks...

  58. Britannica and China - not a good combination by mlewan · · Score: 1
    In some areas the Britannica is worse than out of date. The entire sections about the Arab world, India, China, Japan and other parts of the world with non-Latin alphabets are written in clumsy, sometimes very un-standard, transcriptions. If you see a reference to a Chinese person in the Britannica, it is fairly likely that you won't ever find out his "real" name, as there are no Chinese characters and no accented pinyin to represent it.

    Almost every article I have read in the Wikipedia about China has had correct simplified characters, correct traditional characters and correctly accented pronunciation guides in pinyin.

  59. Ah yes, Andrew Orlowski from the Register by ta+bu+shi+da+yu · · Score: 1

    We are talking about the same Andrew Orlowski that fabricated an email from Robert Scoble to try to make Microsoft look stupid? The same Andrew Orlowski that wrote a fake article reporting Jimbo Wales was shot?

    If so, I'd read his articles with a lot of skepticism. While Orlowski does have some valid criticism, by and large I personally find him unreasonable and rarely pay him much heed. He quite likes attacking Wikipedia every opportunity he gets, so he's hardly an unbiased source. My suggestion is to take what he says with a grain of salt: he's not the most reliable journalist about.

    TBSDY

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  60. Microsoft would buy Apple by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    Aww, heck, Microsoft would buy Apple outright to kill the iPod if it could. Bill Gates is probably really irked that Steve Jobs is handing it to him in the portable music business. That the DOJ would put the smackdown on Microsoft if it did probably makes Steve giggle and makes Bill want to throw chairs like Steve Balmer. So, that probably means iTMS won't be spun off as a company - it has protection inside Apple.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  61. Nature's response by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  62. You need to read the original article by tlambert · · Score: 1

    You need to read the original article.

    The intent, at least in France, is to get laws in place for Vivendi/Universal Music Group and establish individual fines per song for content downloads without royalty payment, under cover of "rationalizing" French law with EU law.

    The side effect of this is a DRM mandated by the companies - effectively it makes it legal to comply by transcoding the songs into another DRM format, and it makes it *technically* legal to crack DRM in theory, but difficult in practice.

    This is basically a shot at business models that allow content in multiple places without multiple payments, and return of control of content distribution to the music industry, now that it's been proven that digital music sales can make money.

    The provisions of this bill give them about 6 barriers with which they could shut down the iTMS from the French market, and potentially elsewhere. At the same time, you can be guaranteed that Vivendi will not distribute content that's not DRM'ed, so effectively and non-DRM'ed content they see on the network will be content that falls under the penalties of the new law.

    So it's still a ploy to put in place Draconian DRM and throw everything else out of the market; you might have read my comment as referring to Microsoft's WMA format, but in fact I was speaking about Vivendi.

    Cheers,
    -- Terry

  63. I know a bit about genetics by prizog · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Reviewer comment: Yes, [Nature reviewer unclear here] in using the language of individual-level fitness and selection; but this was also a shortcoming of Hamilton's original formulation. Thus to say `They all carry the same genes...' (para 1) is misleading because what matters is not the totality of genes shared but the probability that relatives share a specific gene (strictly allele), in this case the one coding for the altruistic trait. By the same token, `individual fitness' is a proxy for allele fitness, again, in this case, specifically the allele for the altruistic trait. Kin selection is THE paradigm of the gene selection argument; it actually makes no sense when couched at the level of individual fitness. The problem cascades through the piece, thus: Par2, lines 4-5 - should be `A parent has a probability of 0.5 (or a half ) of sharing any given gene (again actually allele) with each progeny ...' and last line - should be `...because it increases the probability of transmission of the parental gene for caring.'

    Britannica response: There is no inaccuracy here. We stand by our author, Francisco Ayala, who insists that the reviewer is wrong through and through: the altruistic behavior is favored by natural selection because relatives share (in fractions depending on the degree of relatedness) all their genes.


    I can't see the original article (Britannica attacks Nature for not making their data available, but they're guilty of the same thing).

    But it sounds like the reviewer was saying that the Britannica article conflates individual fitness with allele fitness.

    Example: imagine a species S. A grenade is thrown at five individuals of species S. If one of them jumps on it, she will die but the other four will live. Else, each will die with probabilty 0.5. Should she do it? If we are looking at things from her individual point of view, she should not do it *no matter her relation to the other individuals*. Nobody's individual survival is benefitted by dying. But if we are looking at things from the point of view of her alleles, then her relation to the other four do make sense. If they are her clones, then the allele has a 0% chance of dying off at this moment if she does it, and a 1 in 32 chance if she doesn't. The average numbers of survivors is also higher: 4 vs 2.5.

    It's true that the presence of altruistic individuals increases everyone's survival odds -- nonetheless, altruism is not justified on an individual level -- if it were, it wouldn't be altruism.

    Ayala is wrong that altruistic behavior is favored by natural selection. Genes coding for altruistic behavior are favored; the behavior itself is not favored.

    The thing is, I'm pretty sure Ayala understands this. Ayala thinks he's saying the right thing: in his brain, "altruistic behavior" is a shorthand for "genes coding for altruistic behavior", because he's an expert in kin selection and thinks about this all day. He just forgot that he was writing for a general encyclopedia. At least, that's the only theory I can come up with for why he insists that he's right..

    Of course, if I later read the Britannica article and discover that it is correct, I'll be glad to retract this. Also, I'm not a geneticist -- I just like to think I understand some of genetics because I've read a bit about it; and this bit is basically game theory anyway. Perhaps a real geneticist will tell me that Ayala is using terms in the standard way, so the criticism fails on those grounds. If so, I'll accept that correction too.

  64. Funny you should say that by ta+bu+shi+da+yu · · Score: 1

    A bunch of us (well, I made the original proposal which fell flat on it's face, then another person came along and reproposed it independently) is a proposal for stable versions. We've already started with one article: Wikipedia. There is a box on the main Wikipedia article that directs the reader there.

    Interested to know what you think of this idea as it directly addresses your concerns.

    TBSDY

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  65. Peer reviewed journals vs...? by sarkeizen · · Score: 1

    "So then, is this just one more example of how refereed journals can't be trusted?"

    In a word, no.

    Why would it be? Science is an itterative process, part of which involves publishing. Then comments on published articles. Then other studies. Then meta-analysis, studying the results of all (or some cross-section) of studies.

    EB makes some interesting points in their article. They should have submitted it to Nature and then nature comment on it, etc... but even if they are entirely correct that in and of itself doesn't invalidate refereed journals.

    Not to mention if you ever could justify mistrust in the majority of refereed journals....think just how much of the Wiki that would invalidate (ever look at how many journals are cited as sources?)

  66. Example here by caffeination · · Score: 1
    People are always talking about this stuff, but it takes an example to really bring it home.

    IMBlaze, with this fucking classic quote: IMBlaze Instant Messenger is very unique. See if you can get access to its source code. Take a look at some screenshots of gaim while you're there. They had to close the Support Forum there because of people posting comments like this:

    Blaze is an illegal ripoff. Use Gaim, the original non-advertising free open source client.

    But at least they're not selling it like some people...

  67. like, hello? wiki has Britney Spears, loser. pshaw by rush22 · · Score: 1

    like, this britannica book doesn't have like *anything* about Britney Spears, so like what good is it? Wikipedia has a 5,000 word article on her and the music she writes. If I wanted to learn about science things I'd go to a science school. Get a life LOSER and go learn about your hydrogen star trek machine boooooring crap somewhere else lol!!! This is OPEN SOURCE. Do u now what that means? anyway i only came to your stoopid site to learn more about the IDIOTS who are on Wikipedia attacking that article. Do you know what POV means? Like, I didn't think so. talk about a personal attack, really, you weirdos.

    and like, u can go to Britannica all you want, fine by me. try editing the harp seal page so you can make sure everyone knows about the horrible Canadians murdering helpless baby seals. How are you going to give people the facts about harp seals if you don't tell them how horrible it is to kill them?

    not that it matters. once Rachel makes me admin i'll make sure you stay off wikipedia.