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How Open Source is Faring in Retail
SilentBob4 writes to tell us MadPenguin is running the first of two articles taking a look at the 'world of retail as Tux is experiencing it'. From the article: "Of the stores we visited, only Linspire Linux was sold pre-installed on computers in-store. Those FOSS boxes were often among the store's best volume sellers, primarily because they were the cheapest, according to store staff. The staff believed, based on conversations with frequent customers, that most customers were buying the boxes to install Windows on them. But that is not surprising to us, because, as we discuss in section two, brick-and-mortar "computer" stores are still part of the Microsoft distribution chain. The fact that there were some open source products at all in these stores is actually surprising, as Microsoft guards its distribution chain jealously, and punishes those business partners who stray into carrying FOSS products."
And I figured people would buy PCs with Windows licenses to install Linux!! Glad these people sorted me out on this.
"The staff believed, based on conversations with frequent customers, that most customers were buying the boxes to install Windows on them. But that is not surprising to us, because, as we discuss in section two, brick-and-mortar "computer" stores are still part of the Microsoft distribution chain."
And if they sold systems with no OS, they'd sell like hotcakes. Take your pick: pirates or people sick of buying an XP license each time they want to upgrade to a new machine without the trouble of buying it part-by-part?
I'm amazed that you can actually find a computer that comes with anything other than Windows pre-installed. This has to be at least one step in the right direction though. Even if people are only buying them to put windows on the effect on the market will be the same as if they were going to become hard-core open source supporters. It still gives a bigger market share to this stuff, and with bigger market shares bigger companies want to get in on the action... then it snowballs
*''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
It does not fit in commodity stores who sell milk, minced meat and sucking, proprietary end-used-software with no warranty or service.
'Once scientists, even the dim-witted social scientists, get muzzled, the Western Civilization is finished.' - oldhack
I hereby grant my unused Windows Licenses to Linspire "customers."
>The staff believed, based on conversations with frequent customers, that most customers were buying >the boxes to install Windows on them. But that is not surprising to us, because, as we discuss in >section two, brick-and-mortar "computer" stores are still part of the Microsoft distribution chain
What...If stores are part of MS distribution chain, why are customers installing Windows. Sounds like a senseless argument.
Customers install windows for ease-of-use and availabilty of apps...
how true this will hold after Vista is released? Seems to me that the machines being sold are good enough for Linux or WinXP but not for Vista. Will they then be bought and used as is?
Linux is, insofar as these things go, a relatively high-end product, and persons who are knowledgeable enough to want to buy Linux are often also knowledgeable enough to know how to download it. The rule is not perfect but there's still going to be a heavily distorting effect on Linux's boxed-sales levels compared to other potential open source programs. Is OpenOffice available as a boxed retail product? If not, why not?
I've worked for both a retail outlet and two small OEMs, one of which is a Microsoft gold OEM partner, or whatever that program is now.
At all three places we talked openly to MS reps about offering Linux to keep prices down. At one of the OEMs we went from all MS to about 20% Linux in the space of a year. Not once did any of that hurt our relationship with them. This sounds like a bunch of FUD to me.
120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
This has very little to do with how Linux is doing at Retail. It has everything to do with if given the chance to pirate an OS, will people do i?
Then again, im not really shocked. I think to some degree people view pirating an OS or pirating from Microsoft in general as a lesser form of pirating.
Microsoft guards its distribution chain jealously, and punishes those business partners who stray into carrying FOSS products.
And the source for this little gem is what? Do you suppose the DOJ would be interested if it were true? Do you suppose that MS' competitors would be screaming if it were true? Do you suppose that with the size of MS' market, the number of retailers and speed of the internet, if this were true it would be on the front page of the New York Times, Washington Post and Wall Street Journal?
Well, overall it sounds like good news to me. It's going to be awhile before Open Source really breaks into the mainstream, so naysayers can gripe all they want. It's clearly making headway. The Empire wasn't overthrown in one movie afterall. We are barely in the first act.
Random_Amber
You don't need fancy sociology about "disruptive technology" to explain why Linux distros do or don't have prominent in-store displays. If the makers write their checks to the store, they get their displays; otherwise, they don't.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Remember BeOS it went into the grave for this very reason. No larger distributor would touch it because MS threatened to remove any discount if they did. Wow that is freedom of the market in action!
so in other words, the FOSS community is content to just act as a 'spoiler' to Windows, enabling the theft of software, rather than actually competing on an equal footing.
And yes, COMPETING is possible; the 'distribution chain' excuse is just that. Linux is FREE, Windows is not. If that isn't viewed as a HUGE fundamental advantage in Linux's favor, you are obviously too drunk on the kool-aid.
Rumors abound that Google will soon offer some type of operating system, which has led to this hilarious parody by The Register that Google supposedly is planning to create a Ubuntu-based distro hilariously named "Goobuntu."
This guy needs to get out more. I would have thought 'amusingly' to be enough overstatement but, 'hilariously?'
i think a big problem is a lack of people who could answer any questions on these machines. i bought a 500$ linspire laptop at walmart. the price was cheap enough and the CNR service was pretty cool so i figured, 'why not?'.. after playing around a bit i ended up selling it to a friend after i a got a new power book.. anyways, the amount of questions i got about that linspire machine (how can i set up my printer, why can't my kids use for school, etc..) was a headache enough.. i couldn't imagine a big box store that would be willing to deal with this type of feedback for one type of product.
They have been running diskless Linux terminals on the POS stations for years. But they would let anyone know it because they are afraid of MS.
In the UK, the PC World chain is the main purveyor of PCs at retail. It, err...well. How shall we put this? It doesn't have the greatest reputation for knowledgeable staff and customer service. Alternative names I've heard for it are PC Woe and The Purple Temple Of Sadness (which is the best term I've heard for the place).
As you'd expect, it pushes cheap* PCs and whilst the odd Mac sits at the back somewhere, it's pretty much a Windows-only place, happily pushing Microsoft Anything and Norton at people.
It came as a surprise then, when I needed to grab a router right that moment and so went in, to find internal stock lists and part numbers getting checked using OpenOffice spreadsheets. Interested, I had a word with the guy doing the check and he said OpenOffice was used throughout the store.
I'm not certain as to whether he meant just that store or the entire chain, but it was interesting to see OpenOffice having taken over a shop so strongly identified with WinTel and Microsoft-only solutions.
Cheers,
Ian
*Not that I have anything against cheap PCs - all depends on people's needs really.
Can't RTFA but discounting the usual Slashbot FUD that Microsoft 'punishes' those who stray into selling Linux (or whatever)... what exactly is the problem here? That retailers "should" sell Linux because "everyone" knows it's "better" than Windows? What is the rationale for expecting Circuit City to sell boxes with some other OS preinstalled?
Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
A lot of OEM software says you can ONLY use it on that computer. I have seen Windows CDs that claim this. Is it legal? I kind of doubt it. I think this is the reason you are seeing more "restore disks" coming with computers now. The restore disks check that you are only using them on the computer you are supposed to.
Kind of crappy if you ask me.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
No dude, you're the moran!
Every time I read a slashdot article about linux it seems like all the Linux fanboys do is blame Microsoft for keeping Linux down. While I do know that Microsoft has forged some exclusive deals with PC manufacturers, I don't feel that thats the main reason why people arn't adopting Linux. I frequently build my own systems and have plenty of experience installing Linux, but I chose to use Windows as my primary OS. Linux is still lacking in many areas and if I were to try to switch the rest of my family over it would be a nightmare. Windows does have its own flaws but all in all it's the best thing on the market for most people. Back in the day of Windows 95/98 the OS bluescreened at least once a week and full OS crashes were constant, but with XP I hardly ever experience a full OS crash and I leave my system up for weeks at a time. It's usualy third party applications and drivers which cause the crashes I deal with but people are quick to blame Microsoft for these faults. A good example is my firefox install, which has been crashing quite frequently recently. I know this is probably caused by a poorly writen extension but yet I find myself thinking 'Damned Firefox'. I have a feeling that when a third party app causes trouble people are quick to blame Microsoft.
I'm glad to hear that these low-end Linux boxes are selling. Perhaps the majority of these boxes will get a pirated version of Windows installed but who cares?
I would imagine that this Linspire is profiting on these units. Linspire has provided financial support to a wide variety of projects which is a good thing.
If sales are as good as this article makes out -- it would stand to reason that these retails (And others) would be more open to stocking additional models (perhaps higher end) and provide some additional numbers for hardware manufacturers to provide support (drivers, etc).
A PC without Windows installed, that is? I mean, yeah, I can get one with Linux installed and still pay the Windows tax, but I'd really prefer to save my money rather than sending it to Bill...
Thou shalt not install any open source operating systems, or any likeness of any thing that is not Microsoft Windows XP. Thou shalt not recognize the commercial viability of Linux, FreeBSD, or otherwise: for I Microsoft thy Monopoly am a jealous Monopoly.
Software cost is already padded to take care of pirates. Thanks for the gesture though.
Because you can get $199 Linspire computers and a free burn of your neighbours Windows XP Pro CD. Combine those with some easily obtainable Windows key codes from the Internet and boom... you've got a cheap MS Windows box. I think MS relies on the pirates to keep them in business. Imagine if nobody pirated Windows! Windows would be long gone and people would be using primarily free Linux OS's.
Meh.
I've bought a few of these Linspire boxes and they are perfect for Linspire, but for XP pro, they are a bit underpowered (i.e. 256M memory). I've converted 2 so far to XP and reverted since the horsepower wasn't there. Then again my requirements never use 100% of XP's features and need 24/7 uptime.
It was Wal-Mart, the only retail company in the World big enough to kick Microsoft's ass down the street like a leaf in the wind, that did the Linspire thing, right?
Wal-Mart will go to any means to sell a computer $0.99 cheaper than the guy down the street. They will lead a FOSS retail revolution, if the right distro can be pulled together.
Like laws and sausages, retail computer marketing is not pretty.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
"Oh, and as to the DOJ that you are supposing will take action, would that be the same DOJ that settled the prior anti-trust case against Microsoft with a slap on the wrist?"
I really don't care for the story to begin with, but I should point out that companies touch points with more government organizations (local, state, federal, etc) than just the DOJ, and the DOJ's action have no influence on what they may, or may not do. And since you brought up the DOJ. The settlement wasn't a complete "slap on the wrist", but had conditions.
The traditional retail channel for computers isn't going to last forever. Average computer prices are falling over time which results in smaller profit margins. Computers are also tending towards system on a chip, IE integrating everything and less peripherials to buy. Software distribution on little plastic disks is already archaic for many of us.
The future of hardware is cheaper mac mini/xbox/ps3 boxes with no options per model (but with different models based upon cost). You just walk over to walmart and plunk down $199, then take your box home and plug it in.
The future of support is that much less will be needed. People are becoming more computer savvy over time. The software is becoming easier to use. The hardware is becoming more of a sealed box and cheaper. With a good automatic backup system and hardened software there would be no reason to ever repair a $100 computer instead of throw it away and get a new one.
The future of software is Ubuntu disks thrown around like AOL disks now. The next release will see the installer and live CDs integrated into one disk. Most likely there will be 2x as many of that release as a result and they'll start showing up in all sorts of odd places. Shuttleworth doesn't need to get OEM preinstalls. He just needs to get the major sellers to bundle a live CD with EVERY PC or component that goes out in retail and mail order. And a stack of them at every register in every computer/electronics/bookstore/coffeeshop/etc. Hell you could hand everyone an Ubuntu CD with their coffee at Starbucks if the others don't want to play for fear of upsetting their current partners.
The rest of the software space will shrink as distribution goes online. Profit margins will fall as less disks are sold, which means that the boxes will get smaller and the retail space taken up shrinks. The brick and mortar software space will end up looking like the typical mall video game store or game section over at Walmart. When you buy a disk it will really just be an encryption key and a small installer with a pointer to some online repository (EQ, WoW, and other online games already are to some extent).
Michael
"A massive outbreak of honesty would be the best thing that could happen to FOSS."
LOL! Sorry, I'm not laughing at you. But this is slashdot; home of the "your information want's to be free". The fact that you said your post with a straight face is too priceless to pass up.
I could have sworn that said "How open source is farting in retail."
It's been a long day.
/^([Ss]ame [Bb]at (time, |channel.)){2}$/
Open source spelling and grammar checking certainly isn't "faring" so well...
I could swear it said "Farting" for both the first and second reads....
Have the people who think this ever tried to do a Windows install on a computer that didnt have it pre installed? If they think Linux is hard to install they have no idea the problems they will run into. Where are they going to get the drivers? That modem, sound card, and video card will most likely not work right if at all. How are they going to get the drivers with no internet access because the modem/ethernet card isnt working?
Are they going to try and use a reinstall disk? The ones that everyone loses within a year? Are they going to use a downloaded copy? The one that isnt going to pass the "genuine windows" check that lets you download updates?
All in all they must have asked a bunch of high school kids working for minimum wage with no idea what they were talking about.
I trust Microsoft as far as I could comfortably spit a dead rat
>the distribution has much the ways as Linspire, they DO NOT SHARE what they build
Linspire shares a lot back to the community as can be seen on bugtrackers all over the open source world, in their own projects (like NVU and PhoneGAIM) and on their own web site. I think all the proprietary stuff they "do not share" (apart from CNR) is stuff they do not own themselves but just license from others.
Yes they charge money, but they do that for services. Personally, I only run Ubuntu, but there is talk of CNR for Ubuntu, and I'd happily pay for that (easy codecs, apps with no free alternative, apt-friendly).
Don't bash a good community member just because they like to pay their developer for the work. I'd rather see a guy be able to make a living on making more open source than having to have another job on the side.
with XP I hardly ever experience a full OS crash and I leave my system up for weeks at a time.
Then:
my firefox install, which has been crashing quite frequently recently.
So which is it? XP stays up for weeks or crashes frequently?
if I were to try to switch the rest of my family over it would be a nightmare.
Let's shell over to the wife's box. Hmm, uptime 121 days. She sits there emailing and chatting with her web friends way more then she should.
Let's shell over to the 4 year old girl's box, the nicest in the house. Oh yeah, 11 days ago I put it down to use it's power chord for another computer. No pop ups or other nasties on that box. Do your kids get flooded unmentionable things?
If not having to do anything to keep the computer working well is a nightmare, I must be having a nightmare.
From the fine article:
Fry's had three FOSS computers on display, all low end boxes, and all with Linspire Linux pre-installed.
The neglected to mention that all those "low end boxes" were running circles around the expensive Windoze machines despite the tremendous effort lavished on every windoze computer to make it look "factory fresh". Running a retail windoze box is much like running a kiosk, you have to lock it down and never let it touch a network. Running a Linux computer might require a periodic wipe of the guest account if you are too lazy to configure it so it can't be screwed up. Other than that, you can let your customers do whatever they want. I run garbage hardware, but it routinely does better than my peer's windoze burdened hardware which cost much more and has processors two to ten times faster.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
See here for original story of the "delicate dance" vendors are expected to perform.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Things with no price have no interrest and no value
When potatoes went to France, nobody cared or wanted to eat that strange thing.
Then, Parmentier had a brilliant idea. He put a threatening sign on a field where potatoes where grown. Promising heavy punishment for who would stole it.
Then, every night, growing potatoes where effectively stolen and people gained appreciation and taste for thhe new vegetable.
Let people steal the valuable OSS sotfwares, even publish heavy threats to who may steal it and you will see people loving pirated OSS and gaining interrest to OSS at all.
Léa Gris
http://web.archive.org/web/20020321092752/http:/ /www.eweek.com/article/0,3658,s=1884&a=24242,00.as p
http://www.eweek.com/article/0,3658,s=1884&a=24242 ,00.asp">link
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
He might not be able to spell "moron", but he makes some very valid points.
Did anyone else read that as "How Open Source is Farting in Retail"?
End of Line.
What does Dell pay back if you refuse the windows license and want to send the disks back? How about BestBuy or Circuit City? Say you are satisified with the computer but on reflection you really don't want to follow through with the first boot activation, so you want to "legally return to the OEM" the disks? If you bought from a hardware vendor, they are the OEM. Or will MS take those disks? Got any links with actual vendor policy outlines on that issue and hard numbers for the refund in dollars for various versions?
... but I live in latinoamerica (Argentina) and at least 50% of the computers come with some form of Linux, and its even announced like some technology great and new. Only Compaqs and high-priced PCs come with a original copy of Windows. It`s not a joke, i gonna take a picture of the ads and post somewhere. Linus gonna piss their pants!
What about numbers of returns. People may return the boxes when they find out how the machine they bought is different then what there used to and incompatibl with there old stuff from there old computer.
Install Windows and Office(koffice&OpenOfice) and Photoshop(gimp)and a full C/C++ compiler (gcc) a Webserver (apache for both) Then compare.
Sure if I installed only Linux, it's utilitie and X windows it would all fit on a single CD.
"The staff believed, based on conversations with frequent customers, that most customers were buying the boxes to install Windows on them. But that is not surprising to us, because, as we discuss in section two, brick-and-mortar "computer" stores are still part of the Microsoft distribution chain."
Does that make sense? Because other stores have windows installed by default, people have to buy a non-windows box, and pirate windows?
I know that I sure don't. I thought the only support from msft was super expensive, and worthless.
No 17" widescreen available, no Core Duo available, and most importantly, even the top end model carried by FIC (linked from your link) has integrated graphics.
If you want a cheapo POS laptop, yes, you can find one without Windows preinstalled/build most of it yourself.
Unfortunately, if you want a decent high-quality machine with a decent feature set, you still have to buy premade.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?