Slashdot Mirror


Heads Roll As Microsoft Misses Vista Target

A reader writes: "Business version is on time, but the company won't make the key holiday consumer sales season. After another delay in the release of its Windows Vista operating system, Microsoft last week put a new executive in charge of future Windows projects and replaced several other managers. The changes are designed to better align Microsoft's desktop and Internet software teams and get products to market faster." There's also a NY Times piece that discusses why Windows has been so slow (to come out). Worth the reading.

73 of 386 comments (clear)

  1. Oh, but it's OK by Bromskloss · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...cause I hear Linux is out already.

    --
    Swedish plasma phys. PhD student; MSc EE; knows maths, programming, electronics; finance interest; seeks opportunities
  2. NYTimes Article Access by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Informative

    Either go to CNet's Hosting of the article or use this login.

    Username: slashdot25
    Password: Slashdot

    The article in its entirety if you want to read it here:

    Windows Is So Slow, but Why?

    By STEVE LOHR and JOHN MARKOFF
    Published: March 27, 2006
    Back in 1998, the federal government declared that its landmark antitrust suit against the Microsoft Corporation was not merely a matter of law enforcement, but a defense of innovation. The concern was that the company was wielding its market power and its strategy of bundling more and more features into its dominant Windows desktop operating system to thwart competition and stifle innovation.

    Windows 95 had 15 million lines of code. That grew to 18 million lines by the time Windows 98 launched, above. Windows XP, released in 2001, has 35 million lines of code.

    Eight years later, long after Microsoft lost and then settled the antitrust case, it turns out that Windows is indeed stifling innovation -- at Microsoft.

    The company's marathon effort to come up with the a new version of its desktop operating system, called Windows Vista, has repeatedly stalled. Last week, in the latest setback, Microsoft conceded that Vista would not be ready for consumers until January, missing the holiday sales season, to the chagrin of personal computer makers and electronics retailers -- and those computer users eager to move up from Windows XP, a five-year-old product.

    In those five years, Apple Computer has turned out four new versions of its Macintosh operating system, beating Microsoft to market with features that will be in Vista, like desktop search, advanced 3-D graphics and "widgets," an array of small, single-purpose programs like news tickers, traffic reports and weather maps.

    So what's wrong with Microsoft? There is, after all, no shortage of smart software engineers working at the corporate campus in Redmond, Wash. The problem, it seems, is largely that Microsoft's past success and its bundling strategy have become a weakness. Windows runs on 330 million personal computers worldwide. Three hundred PC manufacturers around the world install Windows on their machines; thousands of devices like printers, scanners and music players plug into Windows computers; and tens of thousands of third-party software applications run on Windows. And a crucial reason Microsoft holds more than 90 percent of the PC operating system market is that the company strains to make sure software and hardware that ran on previous versions of Windows will also work on the new one -- compatibility, in computing terms.

    As a result, each new version of Windows carries the baggage of its past. As Windows has grown, the technical challenge has become increasingly daunting. Several thousand engineers have labored to build and test Windows Vista, a sprawling, complex software construction project with 50 million lines of code, or more than 40 percent larger than Windows XP.

    "Windows is now so big and onerous because of the size of its code base, the size of its ecosystem and its insistence on compatibility with the legacy hardware and software, that it just slows everything down," observed David B. Yoffie, a professor at the Harvard Business School. "That's why a company like Apple has such an easier time of innovation."

    Microsoft certainly understands the problem, the need to change and the potential long-term threat to its business from rivals like Apple, the free Linux operating system, and from companies like Google that distribute software as a service over the Internet. In an internal memo last October, Ray Ozzie, chief technical officer, who joined Microsoft last year, wrote, "Complexity kills. It sucks the life out of developers, it makes products difficult to plan, build and test, it introduces security challenges and it causes end-user and administrator frustration."

    Last Mon

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:NYTimes Article Access by David+Off · · Score: 3, Funny

      > Microsoft executive Goldberg bristles at the notion that little innovative work has come out of the Windows group since XP.

      Yes outrageous, litte innovative work has come out of Microsoft since Clippy!

    2. Re:NYTimes Article Access by hey! · · Score: 2, Funny

      Microsoft conceded that Vista would not be ready for consumers until January, missing the holiday sales season, to the chagrin of personal computer makers and electronics retailers

      Damn!

      I had planned to pick up at least a dozen copies of Vista as Christmas presents. Now I have to find something else for President Bush, Don Rumsfeld, Rupert Murdoch, Karl Rove ... Crap. I need a new gift for everybody on the top half of my naughty list.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    3. Re:NYTimes Article Access by geminidomino · · Score: 2, Funny

      I bristle at that statement, too.

      XP wasn't innovation. It was more of the same cruft with an interface that HAD to be licensed from Playskool.

    4. Re:NYTimes Article Access by ndogg · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Seems like poor design decision s have caught up with them.
      It was one design decision: backwards compatibility.

      I'll readily admit that I don't much like Microsoft or their software, but they must be commended upon their due diligence on this one aspect. A lot of software from Windows 3.0 can still run on XP.
      --
      // file: mice.h
      #include "frickin_lasers.h"
    5. Re:NYTimes Article Access by Jugalator · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As a result, each new version of Windows carries the baggage of its past. As Windows has grown, the technical challenge has become increasingly daunting. Several thousand engineers have labored to build and test Windows Vista, a sprawling, complex software construction project with 50 million lines of code, or more than 40 percent larger than Windows XP.

      "Windows is now so big and onerous because of the size of its code base, the size of its ecosystem and its insistence on compatibility with the legacy hardware and software, that it just slows everything down," observed David B. Yoffie, a professor at the Harvard Business School. "That's why a company like Apple has such an easier time of innovation."


      I'm not so sure this is really why this time, or that it's the only reason...

      People paying some attention to the Vista development may notice that during build 5000, Microsoft did basically a 180 turn and decided to throw out the new foundation of managed (.NET) code on an XP SP2 based kernel, and rather go with the Windows Server 2003 kernel. This required such massive rewrites that to the end user experience, the project was essentially restarted. This happened in September 2004, just less than 2 years ago. And people wonder about the feature cuts and delays. ;-)

      MS did a major goof up in planning with this OS, and they're paying the price now. Just imagine if they could get the two years or so spent on developing on the wrong kernel and with an invalid design philophy back (it was later found out that .NET code sucked too much in performance to be usable). This time could be spent on making... well, how about WinFS? ;-)

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    6. Re:NYTimes Article Access by hey! · · Score: 4, Interesting

      From the sound of that, this may be the last major Windows release. The Windows name may carry on but it will be the end of Windows as we know it.

      Well, what is Windows as we know it?

      The windows natural market position is this: it's the world's dominant desktop operating system, the one that almost every worktation, no matter what it is used for, is almost certain to use. But it's not anymore, because Windows has an identity crisis. It's been seen by Microsoft as a lever they could use to enter and dominate new markets, such as home entertainment. It leads to a lack of focus.

      Consider Apple: You have a choice of two operating systems from them Mac OSX 10.4 (Tiger) and Mac OSX Server 10.4.

      From Microsoft: XP Home, XP Pro, XP Media Center, XP Tablet Edition, XP Pro 64 bit Edition, Windows Server 2003 and of course the embedded/mobile versions (Windows Mobile and Windows 2000 Core OS) which arguably don't count.

      The thing is, Apple is doing everything with vertical integration that Microsoft is trying to do. They've just drawn the lines around projects differently. I wonder, though, whether this makes the difference.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    7. Re:NYTimes Article Access by Ucklak · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They don't have to backward compatible anymore. They are a frickin software company for one, #2, they own a fricking VM company (VirtualPC) that is responsible for Windows on the Mac.

      They're claiming this 'backward compatible' mantra so that they don't lose the current corral of developers, from Tier 1, 3rd party, and fan boys.
      If they change their OS so that backward compatibility no longer works, they feel they risk losing everyone to the competition, whatever it is.
      Mac did it in 2000 and kept backward compatibility through whatever method it is that kept Mac Classic on all OSX's through the Intel changeover.

      I was actually looking forward for the originally planned Longhorn with WinFS and such but not this Vista crap.
      I stopped being a MS fanboy with the announcement of XP activation but I realize them for the juggernaut they are and I respect that.

      I don't see why they can't come up with a new OS and include legacy support in VM mode. Today's hardware can handle it. Vista is just smelly trash.

      --
      if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
    8. Re:NYTimes Article Access by QuietLagoon · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It was one design decision: backwards compatibility.

      "Integrating" applications into a monolithic operating system does not help at all. It may have helped Microsoft to win the browser battles, but it is causing Microsoft to lose the ability to keep Windows as an ongoing OS.

    9. Re:NYTimes Article Access by gonzoxl5 · · Score: 5, Funny

      From the sound of that, this may be the last major Windows release. The Windows name may carry on but it will be the end of Windows as we know it.

      Curtains for Windows ?

    10. Re:NYTimes Article Access by Ucklak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Say Vista would break old code;

      They could release Vista Professional Edition that includes a VM which is certainly more than enough to handle any corporate app on today's hardware. Any hardware intensive app would obviously keep with the older software/hardware version until it became feasible enough to port over.

      For the home market, they could release a basic Home Edition cheap with no legacy support unless purchased and release a Premium Home Edition with a VM so that whoever that runs that funky resume writer or that genealogy software will still work.
      Anyone with a serious 3D app would purchase a newer version anyway that would be ported as those higer end apps are the first to get ported.

      --
      if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
    11. Re:NYTimes Article Access by ookaze · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It was one design decision: backwards compatibility

      Of course this is BS. What of the complete turn over when they discovered that .NET was too slow, not tailored for big projects ?
      So much for .NET being so fast to develop with, being so good, with a little speed penalty, like so many fanboys rant about every time (yes, here on /.).
      I guess all the other OS people that tirelessly pointed all of that out were right after all, and that the Windows camp was the home of the zealots.
      It's going on with this BS about backwards compatibility. Excuse me ? I experienced first hand the change in the multimedia framework API, the drivers not working anymore (even a driver for a joystick converter, yes, a joystick converter, does not work anymore !!), the apps and games not working anymore (some working but very badly, needing lots of care and hacky patches), ...

      but they must be commended upon their due diligence on this one aspect

      BS.

      A lot of software from Windows 3.0 can still run on XP

      And a lot don't work anymore. So what's the point ?

    12. Re:NYTimes Article Access by Tim+C · · Score: 2, Informative

      To be fair, you're forgetting two things.

      1) Apple has complete control over the hardware, which simplifies development and testing enormously. Even if it's possible to run OS X86 on non-Apple hardware, they can completely ignore it from a QA point of view.

      2) Apple supports three form-factors - desktop and laptop for OS X, and server for OS X Server. MS has tablet, media and embedded versions of Windows because they support tablet PCs, media centre PCs and embedded devices. XP Pro 64 isn't entirely fair either, as it's only available OEM and it's only relatively recently that PCs have been available with 64 bit processors (another consequence of not controlling the hardware) A fairer comparison would be the various editions of Windows Server, not all of which (eg Data Centre) are due to legitimate hardware differences.

    13. Re:NYTimes Article Access by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Funny, I didn't remember hearing that Apple software runs on Tablet PCs
      Actually, it can -- the list of hardware known to (more or less) work with Mac OS does include a few Tablet PCs. The only issue is that the Wacom digitizer is lacking a driver, but once that hurdle is surmounted (and I'll be looking into it, because I'm replacing my iBook soon and I want a tablet whether Apple is willing to make one or not) it should be fully functional as a Tablet Mac because all copies of OS X come with Inkwell.
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    14. Re:NYTimes Article Access by ClosedSource · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "I'd think that any new software project would be silly to tie itself to one operating system at the programming language level (even if not in Java: Python, Ruby, etc.)"

      Sure. Why go for just 90% of the software market when with additional effort and degraded performance you can approach 100% without recompiling. If the linux users won't buy it anyway, so what?

      "Single-platform applications programming is pretty old-school, IMO"

      Right. Whenever I come up with an idea I ask the question: Is this old-school? If the answer is yes, I forget all about it no matter how promising it might be.

    15. Re:NYTimes Article Access by Ucklak · · Score: 2, Funny

      The parent had this sig
      #include "frickin_lasers.h"

      --
      if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
    16. Re:NYTimes Article Access by Jozer99 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Really now? Last time I checked, TV tuning on mac was pretty crappy. You have 2 or 3 tuners, overpriced, and the only software is from EyeTV, as far as I can tell, its pretty low quality compared to most Mac software (I will admit that Mac software is in general better than PC software), and has bascially the functionality of free programs such as Haupaggue WinTV, or DScaler for Windows or Linux. EyeTV in no way competes featurewise with media center, while costing almost the same amount (eyetv + tuner cost more than MCE OS). True, you guys have that new app on the new intel macs, but you can't watch or record TV in it, which is the feature I use most on my MCE PC. Dual tuners, HDTV? Don't think so...

    17. Re:NYTimes Article Access by nmos · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They don't have to backward compatible anymore. They are a frickin software company for one, #2, they own a fricking VM company (VirtualPC) that is responsible for Windows on the Mac.

      Well, in fairness backword compatability is the main thing that their customers care about. Normal people don't buy a computer to run the OS, they buy it to run their apps. If a customer's existing software won't work on a new OS they might just as well start looking at a different OS or, more likely just stay with the old system for a while longer.

    18. Re:NYTimes Article Access by apoc.famine · · Score: 3, Funny

      What are you talking about....Microsoft would have to be insane to create a bunch of different versions of Vista. I mean, it would be a nightmare trying to support the different features of each, educate customers about the difference between them, make sure your software worked on all of them, etc. And besides, when you need to program all the features for the high-end version anyway, customers would realize that you're just selling them a crippled product, and refuse to buy it.

      Multiple crippled versions of an OS....that would never work...

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
  3. You may joke about it, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    with millions of customers still running on that old version of Paint this is no laughing matter.

  4. Unfixable by ozmanjusri · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I don't think Microsoft can salvage this. they've locked themselves into selling a monolith in an environment when a modular, easily and frequently updatable system is needed.

    I'd love to see the major corps get behind a push to reimplement the Windows APIs (IE, Wine or similar) so all OSs could run Win32 executables. Then the big MS lockin would be over and we users could have some choices.

    --
    "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    1. Re:Unfixable by cyber-vandal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My god I'm so sick of that specious, idiotic argument. OS/2 failed for a number of reasons, none of which were the above mindless parroting from you. Name any OS in the last 10 years that has successfully competed with Microsoft on the desktop. OSX is the only one that has made any inroads and that's mainly because it runs on more expensive and less compatible machines and therefore isn't really a threat to MS.
      There are only two ways that any OS could take customers from Microsoft. These are: either deliver something earth-shatteringly brilliant that customers will no longer have any interest in running their Windows-only applications and will flock to your brave new world; or, and this is the strategy that has succeeded brilliantly in any number of other markets, you offer a similar thing at a cheaper price.
      I'd like to go for the former, however I don't live in an ivory tower and I know that it might not happen for another 10-15 years if ever.
      Linspire/Crossover/Cedega/WINE can already run many common Windows apps however, and while I agree with the sentiment that it sucks to do it this way, the reality of the situation is that one company has control of several technologies that many millions of people and businesses depend on. They don't have the option of rewriting their software from scratch just for it to do the same thing as before. Any migration path has to be easy, cheap and beneficial before anyone will consider it. How can any other PC OS offer that without being able to run Win32 binaries?

  5. So...wait... by grasshoppa · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Let me get this straight

    1) MS is rewriting key components from the ground up ( tcp/ip for one ).
    2) They are pushing for a faster and faster release cycle
    3) They are replacing managers working on vista.
    4) DRM will be built into vista

    Yeah huh. If it's all the same to you guys, I think I'll stick with xp on my home system ( just recently upgraded, btw ). Vista sounds like it's going to be a painful upgrade for the world at large, and I'd rather not experience that if at all possible.

    --
    Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
    1. Re:So...wait... by OneSeventeen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But what about the widgets?! Will somebody please think about the widgets?!!?

      Really, what is Vista advertising to do that Linux/OSX haven't been doing for years? And why do I need those vital features (such as 3d interfaces, widgets, and an online podcasting service) when XP runs great as long as you reinstall it once a year and filter what you put on it.

      Way to go Microsoft, you created a market nobody needed, filled it with crap, and are trying to spin that crap into gold instead of cleaning out the crap and mining for gold.

      My negative attitude says they are in this situation due to greed, but more likely they just didn't plan this far ahead. They started off by writing good applications that the workforce needed, then seem to have gotten distracted by all things shiny. They could have been such a great corporation had they stayed focused on finding and meeting needs, as well as caring at least a little about customer satisfaction and overall niceness.

      --
      "Now the trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed." -C.S. Lewis
  6. Writing on the wall by grasshoppa · · Score: 2, Insightful

    FTFA:
    Microsoft also said Mike Nash will leave his job as head of its security technology unit for an unspecified role.

    Now, as soon as I read this, I caught myself thinking, "Maybe he was doing his job TOO well, hence all the delays".

    --
    Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
  7. Why the delay? by Giant+Ape+Skeleton · · Score: 4, Funny

    Why's it taking so long? Because, unlike previous "new versions" of Windows, this is not just a cosmetic overhaul but a complete redesign of the OS from the kernel up! Also, as somebody else mentioned, updating the mspaint.exe codebase is proving quite problematic :)

    --
    The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.
    1. Re:Why the delay? by clbell · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, it's a complete redesign from the ground up. That's why the same crummy registry concept is there, why the control panel looks exactly the same with many of the same icons, why dll hell still exists to some degree, why programs are still installed in the same way, why the explorer process requires 100MB vs 20MB in XP. The way apps are installed and managed in OS X is so obviously superior that MS would be stupid not to copy it during a complete redesign. Should I go on? A complete redesign, I HOPE, would involve streamlining code/operation and killing some of it's demons. Vista does neither. What MS have done is rewritten some of the modules and added a lot of new modules, which is why Vista has 15 million lines of code (or so) more than XP. It's a much more complex OS...and not in a good way.

  8. Cutting off your toe to spite your face by spyrochaete · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The changes are designed to better align Microsoft's desktop and Internet software teams and get products to market faster

    I thought it was delayed because of DirectX 10 and game\media\PVR issues. Now that 60% is being rewritten will hardware manufacturers like ATI have to ditch their millions of dollars of R&D and start their Vista drivers from scratch?

    1. Re:Cutting off your toe to spite your face by VikingThunder · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, if you remember, there is no 60% code rewrite. That was some BS Smarthouse made up, and everybody else sourced it.

    2. Re:Cutting off your toe to spite your face by S3D · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I thought it was delayed because of DirectX 10 and game\media\PVR issues. Now that 60% is being rewritten will hardware manufacturers like ATI have to ditch their millions of dollars of R&D and start their Vista drivers from scratch?

      I don't think so. Remember DirectX 10 is only an API, there is no sgnificant code base behind it. So I don't think it casued delay, and don't think hardware manufacturers would be wasting significant efforts if there are changes in it. The only important thing is specification, that is a list of abilites which GPU should have, and that is not changed.
  9. Re:Deja Vu? by porkThreeWays · · Score: 4, Informative

    here and here. It's comical really. The first story goes on and on and on how lean Microsoft has become with their new development process. Obviously little has changed. It's also comical that their solution to these sorts of things always seems to be a management shakedown. A shakedown doesn't really help anything if there is a deeper problem. In reality, it will probably just result in further delays.

    --
    If an officer ever threatens to taze you, say you have a pacemaker.
  10. Microsoft Innovates by David+Off · · Score: 3, Funny

    > Vista was also held up because the project was restarted in the summer of 2004. The new work, Microsoft decided, would take a new approach. Vista was built more in small modules that then fit together like Lego blocks, making development and testing easier to manage.

    Wow, Microsoft discovers modular design and good interfaces 30 years after the rest of the world went that way.

  11. Wife wont get Vista For Christmas by aka_big_wurm · · Score: 3, Funny

    I am so sad now that I cant get her Vista for Christmas, I am sure may other of you are and in same boat. Because Vista was the Must have gift this year.

    The truth is that MS is trying to get this on right, and waiting to ship Vista untill its done, at the same time they are being honest with us about ship date and features. Funny we bash them for shiping buggy programs and then bash them for holding back a buggy program.

  12. Re:How many will use Vista? by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 2

    In terms of Operating Systems, or for that matter, general commercial software applications/suites, how many do you think make it to market on time? 50%... if you are lucky.

    --

    "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
  13. Heads roll by LoonyMike · · Score: 2, Funny

    It must be awfully painful, getting your head decapitated by a thrown chair!

  14. Mty suggestions by MECC · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Find Dave Cutler, who MS hired along with a team to built NT:
    From Dave regarding NT:
    • "If any of you break this build, your ass is grass, and I'm the lawnmower." -- David Cutler to his programmers during the development of NT
    • "I won't pollute it [NT] with crap!" -- Cutler to Bill Gates, upon being told that NT was to have an OS/2 "personality" as an alternative front-end.

    Or, get someone with a trackercord of delivering a modern OS. Like Maybe Linus.

    Or, hire Christopher Walken as a Project manager

    --
    "We are all geniuses when we dream"
    - E.M. Cioran
    1. Re:Mty suggestions by Junks+Jerzey · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Or, get someone with a trackercord of delivering a modern OS. Like Maybe Linus.

      Is *anyone* qualified for this? Linus, for example, just works on the low-level Liunx kernel. Vista is a kernel + the .net runtime + graphics layers + GUI + DirectX + user-level applications that ship with the OS.

    2. Re:Mty suggestions by meringuoid · · Score: 3, Informative
      Or, get someone with a trackercord of delivering a modern OS. Like Maybe Linus.

      What the hell does Linus know about delivering a modern OS? He's a Unix kernel guru. I doubt the kernel is what's giving Microsoft problems.

      Now, maybe they could get in touch with RMS instead? After all, the OS based around Linus's kernel is mostly of his creation... Or maybe not. Though it would be amusing to read the reports in the news of Windows users' heads exploding the day after they find that their new Windows shell was in fact xemacs.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    3. Re:Mty suggestions by marcosdumay · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What would probably replace all their development team, and spend any income they get.

      Debian is big, not only on the number of CDs it use. But that was the better sugestion until now :)

  15. Misleading Headline by Aqua04 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I think the headline of the article is a bit misleading. From what I have read, I don't think "heads are rolling" at Microsoft yet. They have restructured, which they do about once or twice a year anyway, but the problem of multiple layers of general managers and layer upon layer of Vice Presidents remains.

    If you read some of the postings on the minimsft blog, you see that Sinofsky has been brought in to streamline things, but the question abut what to do with all the legacy management overhead still remains.

    They have so many people which they promoted up over the years that they'll need to figure out how to flatten the organization whilst thinking about what to do with all these people in middle management. That'll be the interesting question in the coming years, I think.

    1. Re:Misleading Headline by QuantGuy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Mod parent UP! Heads have most pointedly NOT rolled. Jim Allchin is still employed by the company, and will be there until his scheduled retirement. None of the management team in charge of the development of Windows have been fired. Ballmer is still running the joint. Gates is still "chief software architect", in spite of the fact that the glorious innovations he dreamed up, like the relational-database file system (WinFS) and the next-gen API (WinFX) have been gutted from Vista. Microsoft has just shuffled around the senior executives a bit. How this could possibly be interpreted as "heads rolling" is beyond me.

  16. Dare I Say It... by eno2001 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Netcraft confirms it! Windows OS is dying! ;P

    Seriously, I spent some time last night reading through a Microsoft employee's blog discussing this very issue. While it might sound like big trouble in little China, it's likely to be well glossed over by their PR campaigns. Heads will roll at MS, but not the right ones. The big guys there will say that this was the work of either an "astroturfer" who doesn't even work for MS, or a disgruntled employee who really didn't have a grasp on the business end of things. In other words Ballme and company will be saying, "nothing to see here, move along".

    As a side note, I found one of the comments on that blog particularly insulting. Someone had the audacity to say that Microsoft is becoming more and more like DEC. This couldn't be furthest from the truth. DEC was run by the engineers, meaning that the entire company was nothing but engineers. No suits. No business men. Just pure brain. That's why DEC's systems pretty much defined the phrase "just works". MS isn't even close. They tried and they got Cutler to design NT. But then they threw out everything that he had laid out in NT when they hit 2k for business reasons. If you want a great OS, you forget about business reasons. If you want to run a great business, then you need to accept that there will always be compromises and you'll always have a subpar product when compared to the output of pure engineering. Them's the breaks folks. That's why the FOSS world outshines Microsoft at every turn in terms of design and doesn't really make much of a dent business-wise. And it's why MS is so successful as a business but can't create an OS that you'd trust your life with.

    --
    -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
  17. Ray of Light by digitaldc · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In an internal memo last October, Ray Ozzie, chief technical officer, who joined Microsoft last year, wrote, "Complexity kills. It sucks the life out of developers, it makes products difficult to plan, build and test, it introduces security challenges and it causes end-user and administrator frustration."

    Well Ray should know, he does work there.
    I think in Microsoft's desire to be the everything of operating systems, they have bitten off more than they can chew. They need to re-think their strategy and aim to a secure, less-complicated and smaller operating system. Then later, they can release a huge Vista at a time of their choosing.

    --
    He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
  18. Who wants DRM? by miffo.swe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I know who wants it.

    The strange thing is that its not any users of Windows. DRM gives the manufacturers a new unpreceedent tool for administrating users computers without they having a say about it. Once you install an application that uses DRM your computer isnt yours anymore.

    Who would want that? Good thing is it will make Linux look so much better.

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
  19. Re:How many will use Vista? by CastrTroy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I hope I never have to use Vista either. I don't think you will ever have to. Most of the stuff released still runs on 98, with good reason too. It's high hardware specs make me cringe. It doesn't look much flashier than OSX, but requires like 5X the computing resources. I have a mac Mini at work, and it flies. Based on what i've seen for Vista, it wouldn't even come close to running aeroglass. I can't even see how the retailers would want Vista. all the sub $1000 CDN Dells have integrated video, and hence won't even be able to run Vista with Aeroglass. That's got to be a big slice of Dell's marketshare. How do you convince people to buy a new computer that can't even run the OS with all the features. How do you convince people who want to spend ~$500 on a PC to spend $1500?

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  20. It's Their Development Model by segedunum · · Score: 5, Informative

    Plain and simple. I remember when Windows 2000 came out, and that was hyped to the hills as the most secure and high quality Windows that was really going to replace Unix everywhere. Funnily enough, the hype sounded like Vista now. There was an article in 1999 that described their development process, how they were redesigning Windows for security, (just like with Vista!) and God, is it a mess. It is just a massive production line where code is committed by programmers with little regard as to whether it will conflict with changes other people are making. It gets shipped off to the testers, they test some build, OK it and then another team commits code that breaks it in the next testing cycle and build. They then rinse and repeat this process until it seems to work. Small wonder they need so many programmers and people involved as well as the huge amount of time that takes.

    I hate to bring up Apple, but look at their OS. They've put an awful lot of features into their software, with less programmers and with much more of an idea of what they want to achieve - and I think that last point is the key. It just sounds as though some marketing people at Microsoft have been moving the goalposts shouting "Right, we need seven versions to extract more money!", "Oh right, now we're doing media!", "We're doing 3D eye candy!", "We're doing TV!", "We want support for new DRM hardware to please film studios!", "We want integration with some pointless app for social networking!" etc. etc. It seems to me that no one has drawn up a set of proper requirements for Vista. I get the Vista betas through MSDN, and honestly, I just cannot see how they couldn't have achieved where they got to now by evolving from Windows XP SP 2 and 2003 in a far shorter timescale and then building other products and components on top of it when it got finalised.

    Two-fold, on top of that, I'm also convinced that because of all those teams putting code into Windows, and having Windows interoperate tightly with other components and products and vice-versa, Microsoft are having very serious integration and communication problems. What's that saying? Nine women can't have a baby in one month? It seems as though Microsoft's "let's just throw programmers at it" strategy is doomed now and post-Vista, and they're going to have to work out what they're going to do. The big problem is, Microsoft don't know how to develop any other way, and changing a few managers around will change nothing.

    Computers that do speech? Intelligent systems? A digital home? Media systems running Windows? Flat touch-screen panels running Windows in every area of your house? On top of developing a base version of Windows, Office, development tools.....all inter-connected?! Fat chance. There's no way they'll be able to co-ordinate that kind of development complexity with the kind of absolute reliability that's demanded there. Windows still has a future, obviously, but I'm sorry to tell Microsoft that they're not going to be leading us into this new brave world they think we're going to buy into.

    1. Re:It's Their Development Model by Herkum01 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Plain and simple. I remember when Windows 2000 came out, and that was hyped to the hills as the most secure and high quality Windows that was really going to replace Unix everywhere. Funnily enough, the hype sounded like Vista now

      So instead of recycling code, they are recycling marketing material.

      At least they are recycling something!!!

    2. Re:It's Their Development Model by ivan256 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, look at Apple, and you'll see the real reason why Microsoft is missing deadlines. Really. I'm not being sarcastic.

      The guy who wrote that blog post yesterday hit on it too and he didn't even realize it:

      "I was upset at missing the back-to-school market. Now we're missing the holiday sales market. All of those laptops and PCs are going to have XP on it."

      Yup. What's the price for Microsoft's failure to deliver? Nothing. They get the cash anyway. The only downside to this latest slip is the unusually high amount of publicity it's getting.

      But, you say, if they keep slipping competition will catch up... Well, maybe, but not this decade. There is nobody even close.

      Apple? Please. Businesses won't pick a platform that locks them into a single vendor's hardware anymore, and most home users won't buy anything without a 35% sticker on it (does Dell ever sell stuff at full price?). Even if they found a way around those problems, history will show that they're really good at blowing it.

      Desktop Linux? Nope. It's got two permanant and fatal flaws. No huge marketing department, and no goons breathing down OEM and channel partner throats.

      Microsoft's development model, their schedule, their everything is based on the fact that there is no financial incentive for success, and no financial disincentive for failure. They'll fire people, or whatever, but nothing will prompt the kind of change that needs to happen there until they have some serious competition. And we should be glad. Their failure to deliver creates jobs for software and operating system engineers outside the Redmond area.

    3. Re:It's Their Development Model by Strudelkugel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I hate to bring up Apple, but look at their OS

      Hmmm... I recently bought an Intel iMac for working with video. I can tell you it is just as loopy as any Windows box I have ever had. I'm not trying to criticize the iMac, since it does what I want it to do very well, especially once I learned what not to do to keep iMovie from crashing. My experience with the iMac suggests than in terms of predictability and software stability, it is not much better, if at all, than XP.

      I also think the UI sucks in comparison with Windows / *nix window managers, but I have never liked the idea of segregating the app from the menu bar. Maybe others prefer it. I use Windows and *nix in one form or another every day. I use the iMac frequently. Each platform has its stengths and flaws. I use whichever platform is best suited for the task. It seems to me that Windows, OSX, and *nix are all mature enough now that proclaiming one to be better than the other is to focus on the wrong criteria.

      --
      Imagine how much harder physics would be if electrons had feelings! -Feynman, maybe
    4. Re:It's Their Development Model by Dhalka226 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Desktop Linux? Nope. It's got two permanant and fatal flaws. No huge marketing department, and no goons breathing down OEM and channel partner throats.

      I would add another flaw: Lack of consistent vision.

      Before I get flamed as a Microsoft fanboy or something, I do run linux and I like it a lot.

      But that said, the open source community is just that -- a community. There isn't any "linux god" (or "desktop linux god") who in any way controls direction. Many projects have essentially no regard for the end-user. I'll just throw out three questions to illustrate the point:

      1. Richard Stallman: Saint or ass?

      2. Should OSS developers cater to the wishes of their users, or code for themselves because anybody can get the code and add what they want?

      3. KDE or Gnome?

      Any of these three questions are more likely than not to start a flame war. Some people see the range of software, which ranges in quality from unusable to fantastic and often contains a dizzying array of choices in any one area, as an advantage. Others see it as a setback. Some people see "code it yourself" as a fantastic option, others see it as an elitest attitude that doesn't work for the majority of end-users.

      I think the biggest question that the OSS community needs to answer -- if it is capable of such an answer -- is, are we trying to get linux onto Joe User's desktop or not? If linux is an OS for the geeky crowd, that's just fine. But if the goal is to get market penetration, to force Microsoft's dominance down, then things do need to change. They are getting better and better, but they're still not good enough. I'm not sure they're even close to good enough.

      Without some guiding force, though, that cohesion is not likely to happen. As if to illustrate my point, I expect replies to follow about how I'm completely wrong about everything I said. :) If we can't even agree about what needs to be done, it's going to be even tougher to actually do it.

  21. Well the way they're suggesting... by Kjella · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...is certainly going to quickly lead to their downfall. Breaking compatibility with old applications leads to people looking for new applications. If they were do to that, they should have done so years ago when they had the market power. Nevermind that they pretty much did going from Win95/98/ME line to WinNT/2k/XP.

    Seriously, if you were looking at a new application today, if you're not considering cross-platform compatible apps (Java or .NET/Mono) or webservices (traditional or AJAX), you're not doing your job. Same goes for open standards, integration possibilities (e.g. XML/SOAP) and so on. When you're in the position Microsoft is in it's about making it as easy as possible to keep running Windows. Particularly the old cruft that work (hence, don't break it) but won't run anywhere but Windows.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  22. This just in... by MikeB0Lton · · Score: 2, Funny

    Microsoft Windows Vista will be shipping with a free trial of "Duke Nukem Forever".

  23. Re:Does if feel like 1993 in here? by miffo.swe · · Score: 2, Informative

    Not so for me. I have seen countless reboots from XP taking a hike in mid air. The difference is you dont notice most crashes since nothing tells you the darn crap has crashed. It just throws its hands in the air cycle itself. What a way to get rid of BSOD, perform harakiri instead of showing the bluscrean.

    XP is better than crash_every_single_keyboardklick but its not that stable. Im not impressed until Windows is better than Linux or *BSD. Why shouldnt something i pay good money for be much better than something free?

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
  24. Re:This is What Google Has to Look Forward To by Vorondil28 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is not unique to Microsoft. Any huge corporation that enjoys oversized success and has a small contingent of superwealthy employees by way of stock options faces this future.

    Prove it. I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just that making such a broad statement with nothing to back it up is likely to draw "I call B.S." comments. (As I'm doing now.)

    --
    This sig rocks the casbah.
  25. Re:Is "dot net" to blame? by TrappedByMyself · · Score: 2, Informative

    I have heard rumors that one of the reasons that Vista was not ready, was Microsoft's attempt to use "dot net", basically an virtual-machine based (interpreted) language similar in many aspects to Java, but the resulting code was huge, slow, and simply put - useless. Do these rumors have any basis?

    What the hell are you talking about? .NET has been out for years, as have applications written for the .NET platform. What does this have to do with Vista? Some bozos thought Vista was going to be written in C# or some nonsense like that, which may be the crap you're hearing.

    The reason I'm asking this is that I am getting the feeling that while companies (like the one I work for) love to code in Java, the users actually hate the resulting software, saying something like "Wow, this is nice software, but it's so easy to see it's written in Java - it takes half a gig of memory for doing almost nothing.

    Then your developers suck ass. The performance issues associated with Java are 99% usually because of Swing. The devs should be refactor the code to deal with the performance issues, or look at an alternative like SWT. I'd also recommend wxWidgets, but a majority of younger Java developers will burn from lack of experience if tossed into the C++ fire. As for .NET, a C# desktop application performs pretty well. Much closer to a C++/MFC app as opposed to a Swing app.

    --

    Help me take back Slashdot. When did 'News for Nerds' become 'FUD and Conspiracy Theories for Extremist Nutjobs'?
  26. You know what'll happen then, right? by Akardam · · Score: 2, Funny

    Or, hire Christopher Walken as a Project manager.

    Walken: Well guys, Vista looks good, but I tell you what... it needs more cowbell.

  27. The solution is so simple... by dpbsmith · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...take the current version of XP; change the default color for the desktop, scramble the order of every feature in every menu, and add some spiffy new splash screens and logos and a new package.

    Every significant feature of Vista has already been removed, they might as well remove the rest.

    Voila! They make their ship date, PC manufacturers have a merry Christmas, everybody is thrilled at how backward-compatible it is and how little retraining is necessary.

    Nobody will get upset but a few literal-minded techies. Anybody dissatisfied with Windows as we know it migrated away years ago.

  28. Why keep the legacy code? by edmicman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Why don't they rip out the legacy support, offer a slim, fast, "next-gen" Windows OS, and then offer an optional (free?) legacy pack that would install all the unnecessary crap if someone needs to run that DOS checking app from 1990? Or maybe if people can't run their 20 year old software that doesn't have support anymore, they might be inclined to move to something better.

  29. Re:Ballmer should go now by EXMSFT · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "...who is actualy quite ineffective because he is marketing driven and not product and engineering driven."

    Have you ever actually worked with Steve? Or are you making that claim based on the in-depth research you have read here at /.? Either way, you're incorrect. Either way he's not really the one who should go for Longhorn fermenting on the vine.

  30. Mythical Man Month and Apollo by wandazulu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm always shocked (shocked!) that the problems outlined in The Mythical Man Month are still happening, years and years after the fact. I too have been on projects where the knee-jerk reaction is "let's get more people!" and it has always been a disaster. In fact, one project I was on was hosed by a single commented line (long story) done by a consultant who was there for two days, and never even knew how the system worked (or else he wouldn't have done what he did).

    On the other hand, how can projects like the Apollo Space Program succeed? Compared to any computer project, it's unbelievable that anyone can manage all the parts, companies, and research that went in to sending a man to the moon. I read a book, available on NASA's website (sorry, don't have the URL) which described what it took just to build the crawler and superstructure, and I think it was hundreds and hundreds of pages of minutia that I can't believe actually came together.

    What's worse of all is that it's one thing to say "this time it's different because...", but with Microsoft they're not saying anything; they seem resigned to the screw up and figure that their monopoly will simply carry the day. "Yeah, we've botched it, but so what? You're gonna use it, you have no choice!"

  31. Time to switch OSes? by Randall311 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    These last few days of delay announcements at MS after 5 _years_ of development are really making them look incompetent from a business point of view. Though I highly doubt management "shakedowns" will help speed up the development process. The problem here, as has been mentioned before, is Microsoft's unwillingness to let go of the past. Do you remember when they announced that IE was a "mature product" and didn't need to be developed any further? I mean, did they think time would just sit still for them? Would Ford stop designing the Mustang because "It's a mature car"? Microsoft's IE6 is now the laughing stock of Internet browsers, and rightfully so since it's been neglected so badly. Maybe we'll see vast amounts of improvement with IE7, but I'm not holding my breath. At least MS now understands that development can never stop unless you plan on just dropping a product permenently.

    Even after Microsoft wised up to their development blunders like IE, they still have a near unmanagable beast in 50+ million lines of codebase. The #1 weakness that Microsoft has is it's refusal to drop legacy support out of it's products. It may even lead to their undoing. They have allowed feature after feature to snowball into the massive clusterfuck that Windows currently is. In order to meet the demands of the future, Windows will have to simplify. I know it sounds like that is a step backwords, but think about it. How did Apple make such a successful product in OS X? They blew up OS 9 and started from scratch with a proven codebase. That is what Windows needs to do to keep up. Only after Microsoft ditches the i386 legacy and bloat that's suffocating them, will they get some much needed breathing room. Apple had to take a big step back to get ahead to where they are today, and I'm sure it wasn't easy for them, but it's already paying massive diviends. Imagine how wonderful it would be for everybody in the long run if MS took this same approach. Windows has turned into a massive out-of-control beast that has everything including the kitchen sink in it, with about 7 different variations of home and office OSes that are enough to confuse anyone in the industry, let alone the poor consumers who have to figure out which version of Windows best suits them.

    That said, there is really only one roadblock for switching to Linux full time (at least for me), and that is the fonts. I've tried everything from grabbing the MS fonts from my Windows partition, to any combination of AA and/or hinting and DPI resolution I can think of. The fonts just come up weak IMO. I know a lot of you love the fonts in Linux and just wouldn't have it any other way, but I guess I have a different opinion then most of you out there. Windows and OS X fonts look about 100 times better to me. Say what you want, but when I boot up into Windows after spending a few hours in Linux, it's like cleaning a layer of grease off of my glasses.

  32. No, backwards compatibilty is not the reason. by Richard+Steiner · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Operating systems like OS/2 were able to retain almost 100% compatibility with DOS and 16-bit Windows applications without making the kinds of architectural sacrifices that Microsoft has made over the past 10+ years.

    Why? They simply created a Virtual DOS Machine that was sophisticated enough to handle things properly, including running multiple isolated copies of a rewritten Windows 3.1 concurrently to protect 16-bit processes from each other.

    Win32 compatibility doesn't require any of that.

    The bloat we're seeing is simply poor technical design on Microsoft's part, and the "backwards compatibility" card is just something they played to explain some of the stupid stop-gap decisions made with their Windows 9x line.

    --
    Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
    The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
    1. Re:No, backwards compatibilty is not the reason. by Richard+Steiner · · Score: 2, Interesting
      There is no TECHNICAL reason MS can't do this, just ideological and business reasons.

      Absolutely. Otherwise they'd simply use their newly acquired VirtualPC technology to juggle multiple NT kernels, DOS machines, etc., on top of a clean-room next-generation kernel and be done with it. We have the horsepower now, so there are no technical excuses.

      Imagine that -- a new OS with legacy DOS, Win16, and Win32 support and everything. But it's too much to ask for something like that from a multi-billion-dollar corporation...

      --
      Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
      The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
  33. Who? by DarthChris · · Score: 2, Interesting
    ...missing the holiday sales season, to the chagrin of...and those computer users eager to move up from Windows XP, a five-year-old product.
    Who, exactly, is eager to move on to Vista?

    (Genuine question, as I honestly haven't heard of anyone who really wants it.)
    --
    Don't you just hate it when people reply to your signature?
  34. Better late than unstable by davidwr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In the last 4 years or so, Microsoft has rolled out 2 major upgrades to its flagship low-end OS, and introduced a new server OS and upgraded it.

    Not a small feat. Not as impressive as what's happening in the BSD/Linux/Apple worlds, but still no small feat.

    I for one would rather see Vista delayed until 2008 than be significantly buggier than the existing XP with SP/2, particularly if the bugs are security-related.

    The only major downside to NOT having Vista out by now is that users of Windows 98 and Millenium Edition will have to switch to XP in July if they want an OS that gets security patches. Many of them would have skipped straight to Vista if it were available.

    A word to Microsoft on behalf of 98 and Millenium Edition customers:
    Before terminating an OS's support, make sure there are two successor OSes to choose from, both of which are stable and both of which will have at least security-bug-support for at least 2 years.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  35. Reality check: all versions done before Nov by notaprguy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What Microsoft said last week is that they won't launch Windows Vista until after Christmas. By that they mean the broad public launch with the OS on millions of new PC's. They also said that they'll finish the code in the fall...about two weeks later than the original target date...but that date would not give their OEM partners and the retail channel time to get new systems with the OS ready for broad retail availibility. Rather than have a wierd mishmash of PC's running XP and others running Vista, they decided to delay the broad consumer launch until after the holiday. I'm sure the powers that be at MSFT aren't happy about missing christmas sales but this announcement is not a significant delay in the completion of the code.

  36. Dr. Evil is angry, Mr. Bigglesworth is upset... by Bushido+Hacks · · Score: 2, Funny

    Meanwhile, in a secret layer hidden beneath Microsoft's corporate headquarters
    [Maniacal brass music from Austin Powers followed by lighting flash with thunder]
    Bill Gates [in an Ernesto Blowfield/Dr. Evil ethos] "Ladies and Gentilemen, welcome to my underground layer. I have gathered before me the world's deadliest marketing and sales representatives, research and development teams, and some guy who does--what is it that you do?"
    Programming Henchman "I'm a programmer, sir. I'm in charge of all the other programmers at here at Microsoft. I found out about this secret meeting from a memo I found on the ground outside the building."
    BG "O RLY?" [leet speek, spoken by an evil genius!] "We'll, you aren't really suppost to be in this room, however, there is a conference with the other programmers at 2pm in the conference room upstairs. We'll chat later."
    PH "OK. Well, I'll see you around." [causally leaves the room]
    BG "Right...OK then, everyone here that is suppost to be here? Good. OK, from the top. Cue the Maniacal Brass Music and the lightening again."
    [Maniacal brass music from Austin Powers followed by lighting flash with thunder]
    BG "As I was saying, Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to my underground layer, I have gathered before me the world's deadliest marketing and sales representatives, research and development teams, and ofcourse our team of assassins. And yet you have all failed me in one way or another."
    [The everyone else at the table begins to feel uncomfortable]
    BG "Yeah, I assume that your squirmming means that you are in a world of shhh. For instance, Mike Nash, you are suppost to be incharge of security technology. Judging by these numbers, I don't see much security going on. On top of that, yesterday, I let you house sit for my cat that I use when we have these meetings and today I find that you did something horrible to him."
    Mike Nash "But sir, I fed him, groomed him, I even gave him a bath just as you requested."
    BG Look at what you did to Mr. Bigglesworth!"
    [Hired musicials play Shock-and-Awe]
    BG "You sure as hell can't bath a cat with Nair, and you definitely suck at software security. So I'm just going to cut to the chase and-- DIE!!!!!! " [Pushes release button, sends Nash to the incinerator]
    MN "Auuuuugghhh!!!!1!"
    BG [Sees Senior VP Brian Valentine snicker.] "What, Mr. Valentine? You think this is funny? Is there something amusing about why Microsoft is lossing ground? I hired you people to sell my product. How am I suppost to sell a product if people don't buy it?"
    BV "Well, why didn't you speak to that head programming guy who was just--"
    BG: " SILENCE! " [Pushes release button, sends Valentine to the incinerator]
    BV "Auuuuugghhhhh!!!!1!"
    BG "God, you people make me angry! And when Dr. Evil--er, I mean-- Bill Gates is angry, Mr. Bigglesworth gets upset. And when Mr. Bigglesworth is upset people DIE!!!!!1! "
    [Pushes release button, sends random henchmen to a fiery doom]
    BG "Steven Sinofsky, Jim Allchin, Paul Allen, Melinda, Evil Defective Linus Torvalds Robot-Clone, Karl Rove, man on the other end of the room who flips switches, man with clipboard looking busy, and Satan, I have spared your lives so that we can get this damn thing over with. They say our product is defective, but we are going to do what those insubordinate fools couldn't, were finally going to choose the colors for the box to put the software in!"
    Steven Sinofsky "But what about the software?" [Sees Gates move toward the button with his name.] "Oh, wait, right! Sorry. I forgot, that's what programmers are for."

    Man I wish I was this creative in English class.

    --
    The Rapture is NOT an exit strategy.
  37. "Burn Cycles", not compatibility, is the problem. by seven+of+five · · Score: 2, Informative

    Backward compatibility is not the problem.
    From early on the main goal of MS software was to "burn cycles". As Intel churned out ever faster processors something had to greedily consume those cycles, keeping the customers on the upgrade treadmill forever. MS software ensured that the latest generation hardware was just good enough, but the next gen of software brought the hardware to its knees.

    So, what do you get after 20 years of bloatware and burning cycles? A monster that's become impossible to manage. A monster of their own creation.

  38. It was one bad decision, but NOT compatibility by WebCowboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft did not get into this mess because of its relentless pursuit of total, perpetual compatibility. As most people know, while a lot of effort has gone into compatibility the simple fact is that the current version of Windows is no more compatible with its legacy products (windows 3.x, dos) than Linux or OS2--it uses the "Windows on Windows" virtual environment to run 16-bit legacy code, and XPs compatibility with Win9x/Me games, etc. was more of a bolt-on than something that permeates into the core of XP. The result is that Windows is remarkably compatible but not totally so (any 16-bit Windows/DOS program that relies on communications ports for example will crash in NT/2000/XP). The large compatibility layer has resulted in a bloated, crusty registry and APIs that would only be purposely designed like they are by crack addicts. However, although this makes Windows a sometimes-frustrating environment to program at lower levels it is not what makes it nearly unmaintainable even by behemoth Microsoft.

    The REAL poor design decision was electing to create a tightly integrated system. This was the root cause that made other questionable choices at Microsoft (compatibility and "Featureitis") difficult or impossible to correct. When Microsoft wanted to bundle its web browser with Windows it decided to take IE (which wasn't ingtegrated with Win95 at all initially) and sprinkle its libraries in the system directory and link a whole bunch of other components to it...to the point that even the GUI shell will not operate without IE components. It threw the GUI and all these drivers into kernel space. It made one big monolithic, multi-million-LOC pile of crap and justified it by doing it in the name of a "seamless user experience" at a good level of performance.

    There is no excuse for this now--we have machines powerful enough to host full-featured virtual machines that can run self-contained copies of legacy OSes, so if customers really (often foolishly) want to run software that is over a decade old to do important things then they can take that route. The sad thing is that political reasons rather than technical reasons prevent Microsoft from taking the proper course of action. Microsoft should've "pulled an Apple" right after the release of XP and immediately set about developing a totally new OS as different from the NT-based XP as NT was from DOS (and the Win9x/Me derivatives). Apple smartly got out to market faster by building its foundation on open software.

    The problem is MS is probably loathe to heavily depend on open source for its flagship product, and the problem is that Apple beat them to the most viable BSD-licensed option. Since MS has been asleep at the wheel there for far too long, they have two difficult options ahead: Firstly, they could bite the bullet and plan the first major, post-Vista Windows release around a BSD-licensed UNIX core as Apple has already done. MS would be risking a lot by doing this as they become less differentiated from Apple than before--can MS out-class Apple on the UI front, or maintain enough legacy Windows compatibility to keep its customer base? Second, they could try and engineer a new kernel/core system themselves and bolt on chunks of updated Vista as componenets. This could take longer than the first option but it is a made-at-MS solution. In the meantime competitors will have even more time to catch up.

    Basically, Windows as we know it is fast approaching the end of its life cycle. I personally don't think it is really sustainable for even one more major release after Vista. Although this presents a great opportunity for Linux-based and OS X systems I don't think it is the nail in MS' coffin just yet. I figure that with the kind of shake up that looks possible to occur in the next few months at MS that in around 2010 we'll all be eagerly anticipating the release a completely new Microsoft OS--with a very UNIX-like architecture (holy shades of XENIX batman!) under the hood but something very 21st centurey on top.

    1. Re:It was one bad decision, but NOT compatibility by WebCowboy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      'm not sure if this is FUD or just plain stupidness, but it is certainly not true. Windows' design was monolithic, and IE certainly didn't help, but IE is no more in the windows kernel than say nautilus or konqeror, it's just a program with a library that is far too widely used.

      I did NOT say IE was in the kernel...I was stating two separate examples of stupid design choices that have led to Windows being an opaque, unmanageable monolith of ugly code:

      1. Unlike Firefox or Epiphany or Konqueror (etc.) IE was engineered right into the OS product--sprinkled thoroughout the system directory right alongside .dlls for low-level system operations, and now we have important system components and applications that have critical dependencies on IE (even 3rd parties have done this at the encouragement of Microsoft I might add). You are correct in that IE plays in userland--but considering that it is so embedded into Windows that it can no longer be removed completely without breaking things makes it nearly as stupid as if it were running in kernel space. MS has actually made it hard NOT to run at least some IE components, some of the time, with full administrator privleges.

      2. All manner of drivers and the GUI ARE INDEED resident in kernel space--right up to Windows XP, and as such run without limitations on privliges. Some have boasted that Windows NT/2K/XP has a "microkernel architecture" however there seems to be little to justify it being called "micro" when so much garbage in other .dlls hitches along for the ride.

      Perhaps I should've spelled it out VERY CLEARLY for the people who speed-read over all the articles and other small words in each post. In any case Windows is so messed up architecturally that it has proven to be unmaintainable. I look forward to see what MS has to offer in its first major post-Vista release. Until then, I have migrated my personal computer to OpenSuSE and will remain a Linux user without giving Microsoft serious consideration as an option. At least I won't have to put up with product activation, massively critical bugs and a too-rapid hardware upgrade cycle.

  39. Compatibility is a problem of closed source by jesterzog · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'll readily admit that I don't much like Microsoft or their software, but they must be commended upon their due diligence on this one aspect. A lot of software from Windows 3.0 can still run on XP.

    This is true for the most part, but personally I've also felt that the problems with maintaining backward compatibility have been a result of Microsoft's decision to produce closed source software, and to encourage other developers and businesses to copy their model. (ie. Hide your source so people can't read it, charge people to install and continue using your software, and don't let anyone use or improve on your code.)

    With closed source software applications, any or all of the following are typically necessary when the OS is upgraded:

    • Pay for any software application upgrades.
    • Rely on a third party vendor to still exist to create new versions.
    • Rely on a third party vendor to support software upgrades.
    • Rely on the OS vendor to support old versions of an un-told number of applications.

    In essence, every time Microsoft changes Windows, its customers either have to rely on Windows having backward compatibility, or they have to rely on the vendors of all their software... even if the underlying API changes have been trivial. There's also a single point of failure because if the vendor doesn't fix any problems properly, there's no opportunity for anyone else to do it better.

    Compare this with open source software, where even though the OS API's tend to be a little more stable, it's still quite straightforward to upgrade to new versions of software when the API's do change. If the vendor of an OSS product doesn't do it quickly enough, and their product is popular enough, chances are that someone's at least going to produce a patch. There's rarely such a thing as a vendor going out of business and causing major problems, because at someone else is likely to pick it up if enough people use it, or provide an easy-to-implement alternative that'll simply read data from the original app's open formats.

    I'm definitely not trying to claim that open source is superior to closed source for everyone, and I doubt Microsoft could have been such a commercially successful company if it'd built itself on open source software. Having said so, though, I think the backward compatibility issues are a direct result of Microsoft promoting closed source software. It's not something that's even a consideration with open source users for the most part, and Windows wouldn't have to be anywhere near as backward compatible if it was easier to adjust and upgrade the applications that run on it.

  40. Re The Missing Fun Factor by parabyte · · Score: 3, Insightful
    IMO another big problem is the missing fun factor. If you have ever looked at the windows source code, most of the 50 Mio lines of code is extremely ugly and boring.

    Most of the code looks like this:

    1) Setup & Initialize

    Get an interface here, claim some memory, find another interface over there, register own functionality here and there, try something else in case something has failed until you succeed or run out of options

    2) Delegation and Fallback

    If some particular module is not available, fall back to other implementations, reformat the data, manage lifetime and ownership, synchronize with some other activities, and then delegate the call to some other interface

    3) Error Handling and Recovery

    After each call, perform error checking, pass back the result to the caller, potentially reformatting it again, or raise some exceptions or create new higher level error codes from lower level error code you got

    4) Cleanup

    When it is time, either because some reference count went zero, some termination function was called or a garbage collector comes by, free all resources claimed so far, deregister references downstream and upstream

    The whole code is full of hungarian notation type casts, macros and microsoft specific language extensions, and the flow control statements are mostly branches. You are already lucky if you may write a loop that does some actual work, even if it is just collecting stuff from multiple calls.

    And then, if you look at APIs, there are much more parameters and much more options than e.g. in UNIX counterparts, and many options are not orthogonal, so you are entangled in a web of obscure semantics almost everywhere. And you do not have one API for the same stuff, you got a shitload of them: Win32, WinMM, GDI, ATL, OCX, MFC, COM, DCOM, ODBC, ActiveX, DirectX, XNA and tons of product specific APIs. It is already a nightmare to decide which API to use, but to support them all in a bug-by-bug compatible way is programmer's hell. It is like travelling with a hospital ship full of corpses that are not completely dead and need to be kept alive by a team of doctors, high doses of painkillers and cardiopulmonary and dialysis machinery, just in case someone needs them because he speaks this ancient lanuguage noone else but these living dead understands.

    With .NET, Microsoft did a good job at API design, but it is of no immediate help, it is just another API that has to be supported with all the other legacy APIs, so .NET does not reduce, but increases overall complexity and does not perform as well as the other APIs. Another problem with .NET is the lack of maturity, still requiring major changes on all levels, resulting in huge compatibility nightmares between different versions of .NET.

    But even if Microsoft would throw away everything but the kernel and .NET, I still would not jump on it because I do not like to be locked in on a particular platform; I want to be able to run my Software in MacOS and Linux and have a chance to port it to some hardware or OS that does not exist yet.

    If I were in charge at Microsoft, I would try some of the Google philosophy: Do not be evil, and give the people something they can like:

    1) A solid, simple well documumented and rock solid foundation that manages device I/O using a small set of calls with clear semantics: open, close, read, write, ioctl seem to sufficient to do a lot

    2)Choose the right atomic elements: Bytes, Characters, Numbers, Strings, Pixels, Images, Audio Samples, 3D-Polygons and video streams and make them first class citizens throughout the whole operating system.

    3) Implement all APIs people seem to like in a rock solid, feature complete and efficient manner: OpenGL, gtk, POSIX etc.

    4) Invent some new own cool High-Level APIs and frameworks and make sure they are available on Linux and MacO

    --
    Without order, nothing can exist. Without chaos, nothing can be created.