Tech Workers in Higher Demand

mjdroner writes "CNN has a story on an employment consulting firm report showing job cuts in the tech sector are down 40 percent." From the article: "Despite the inevitable job-cutting that typically follows mergers, the job market picture for the nation's tech workers is definitely improving. Many job seekers in high-demand fields such as storage systems administration and information security are probably finding themselves in the driver's seat when it comes to negotiating employment terms"

Comments

Wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

So this "good news" is that people are getting laid off at a slightly lower rate?

Re:Wait...

[Oblio]

What an odd use of the english language.

Better than bad does not equal good.

Trend analysis can be beneficial, but I don't think it would impact someone looking for a job (or even just hoping for better negotiating position).

obSimpsons:
"but it comes with a free frogurt"
"that's good!"
"but the frogurt is also cursed"
"that's bad!"

Re:Wait...

[moochfish]

Rather than firing 200 truck loads of IT staff this month, we're only firing 120 truck loads!!! Celebrate!

job cuts are down!

[wfberg]

"job cuts in the tech sector are down 40 percent." Great statistic! Now what on earth does it mean for the actual amount of jobs? And job seekers?

This sort of statistic sound like it might be due to the increase in growth not slowing down as fast...

In other words; hard, useless, figures.

Re:job cuts are down!

[LunaticTippy]

Once they finally cut all the jobs, the next year they can crow about NO JOB CUTS!

I suppose...

[bigattichouse]

I suppose "slightly less doom" in the world is reason to celebrate too.

"Ahh.. but he's only stabbing me in *ONE* eye with an icepick now!"

Misleading headline

[jrumney]

Shouldn't the headline read "Tech Workers in Lower lack of Demand"?

Consulting

[kevin_conaway]

Many consulting and defense firms have been hiring tech workers non-stop for a long time now. Especially in the D.C. Metro area.

Re:Consulting

[Catbeller]

It's called "building the police state". No thanks. I will not participate in ending the Jefersonian dream. I will not make my own prison. I will not build machines to imprison my nation.

Re:Consulting

[wfberg]

Hey, the best way to wreck a system is from within. Just look at all the stoners who're wreaking their revenge at the DMV by taking a job there..

When will facts match reality...

[Maxo-Texas]

A relentless stream of "IT is great" news... yet a lot of folks I know are struggling (I'm doing okay but worry if I lost my current position).

So I just don't believe this news and I think there is some kind of agenda behind it. Perhaps the big IT companies want to head things off because they finally see a big crunch is coming and they are going to need skilled IT people again.

I would love to see things turn good again in this field but I'm not seeing it at the ground level yet (10+ years experience-- in the South).

Re:When will facts match reality...

[hal2814]

IT is a pretty broad designation. The US is a pretty big place. If you're not seeing this growth then you're either in the wrong place or the wrong branch of IT. I'm a software developer in the Atlanta area. Until I settled down with my current employer a few months ago, I was getting asked to interviews quite a bit. The people I am with now saw my resume on a Thursday, interviewed me that Friday and offered the job the following Monday. They even offered $5K a year more than I asked for. They found my resume on a job site. I was never even aware of them until they contacted me. That's as easy as I've ever had it.

Re:When will facts match reality...

[ShannaraFan]

I'll back that up. On January 17th, my boss and I "had words" and I quit my job as Senior DBA. I agreed to stay until the 24th to document some processes and transfer knowledge to one of the junior DBA's. I did three interviews on the 25th, was offered two of those positions on the 26th, accepted one, got a counter-offer from the other, then a counter-counter-offer from the first, started work there on the 30th, again as a Senior SQL DBA. I don't think it would have been this easy a year ago.

Re:When will facts match reality...

[avronius]

For the record, years of experience in "IT" do not adequately illustrate how desirable your skill set may be to a prospective employer.

I can point to three people that I work closely with. Each has "10 years of experience in IT". One has been doing desktop support exclusively on the Windows environment, one is a UNIX systems administrator, and one is a Windows systems administrator. Each is very good at what they do. As the months pass, one or another of them is offered a new position with a different company, doing interesting work within their area of expertise. This has been consistent for the past three years.

I can point to 11 others who do similar jobs, but haven't received a reasonable job offer in three years. The differences don't appear to be what they do, or even how well they do their jobs, as much as how flexible they have proven themselves to be.

As expected, those "IT Professionals" with the widest skill sets seem to be the ones that are most in demand. Failing that, those that have experience in multiple industries appear to be the next most desirable.

Be proactive in defining your career direction, and flexible in the industries that you practice in. You will find that you are more likely to be considered for those available "IT positions". If your work history proves that you are flexible and adaptable, a prospective employer may be interested in training you in new technologies that interest you.

This rant is a bit off-topic, but "years of experience" is a pet peeve of mine. It is not meant as a slant on the parent of this post. Although, I'd be interested to know what "big IT companies" would benefit from suggesting that IT jobs are more in demand now than before. It seems to me that it would cause a rate jump during a market shortage, rather than continuing with the age old fear mongering techniques of suggesting that you can be replaced before you make it to the curb.

Huh?

[Wellington Grey]

How does 'decrease in job cuts' equal 'higher demand for IT workers'? That's like saying I've gone from spending £10,000 more than I earn a month to spending only £5,000 more a month so obviously my savings are getting better.

-Grey

This is sort of like...

[EmagGeek]

saying "they're cutting medicare!!" because they are increasing spending by 7% instead of 9%..

The fact that they're being laid off at simply a slower rate doesn't make me feel like they're in higher demand. It could just as easily mean that they've run out of people to lay off.

No, its just raining softer

[EmbeddedJanitor]

Job cuts down != improvement in employment.

Job cuts are down by 40% but that still means jobs were cut which still means that there is less employment.

Our fantastic contributors are not the only people that are this stupid. The same trick is used to manipulate national debt news. There is a diffierence between debt and deficit. When the deficit decreases then the government crows about having control of debt. Not so. Deficit is the amount that the debt grows by. Therefore even if the deficit reduces, the debt is still increasing.

From an employer

[dada21]

I've run my IT consulting business now for almost 20 years, a succesful business in the Midwest that has extended past. We ignored the dotcom boom (and bust), we grew slowly but surely, and we focus on showing our customers a profitable return on every investment they make in us.

We can't find good workers. I've interviewed repeatedly and found the new talent is terrible -- it seems that has technology becomes more "known," the amount of GOOD talent is dropping. I've interviewed some people from top colleges that just don't know their way around a business at all, and I have no desire to train them in exchange for a high 5 figure salary.

The only way I seem to find valuable employees is by picking up the real outcasts from the larger consulting firm -- outcasts that have great insight and work ethic but are too far outside the box to fit in any MBA-run company. Every time a consulting group goes under, the same morons get new jobs with the next company that won't exist in 10 years.

For those in the same position, what are you doing for hiring? I don't see talent coming out of college and moving to the Midwest (a very profitable IT sector), most are instead moving to the west coast, taking a big salaried job, and finding themselves stuck in a very expensive area where the high salary doesn't seem to overcome the overhead of living there (stress, costs, traffic). I'd love to find a resource for good employees, but I guess the answer is right there: good employees don't get fired. The balance between efficiency and knowledge and salary is not something I worry about -- if my customers realize a gain on the money they spend on us, I have no problem paying the person right. For those who know, most of my employees work at minimum wage with a large project bonus (up to 80%), and I have enough people looking to work for us that it isn't the pay structure that isn't helping me find good help.

Also, it seems that many people going to college for computer science/engineering aren't even learning the basics -- what colleges have you recent graduates gone to that have taught you real consulting skills, business sense and responsibility?

Re:From an employer

[Badgerman]

Here's a bit of a contrast from what I've seen - I left the midwest for the west coast (IT Project Manager).

The big problem is getting people to move. Regions change and shift and grow, and one of the terrible problems is that to get talent, you may have to get it from somewhere else. I worked with one company who, essentially, raided a neighboring state for talent. Even if the job count stays the same, the type changes.

And it'll all shift again. Five years ago, pre-9/11 my home state was hopping. Post-9/11 it never fully recovered, several changes affected the job markets, and people began leaving - me with them. Now, having moved, ironicaly, I'm gettng leads. Maybe it'll change in a few years, or maybe I'll end up having my company move.

Another friend who's a storage expert in my old home can't find anywhere to go with his career, and has no choice to go to the coasts with his level of expertise. But again - what happens in five years? In ten.

As my current boss put it, "Not everyone is brave enough to move" for a job. It's a helluva risk. And I think the changing demographics of need, combined with the fact some people don't want to move, create areas with talent gaps.

This is all on top of the fact that a lot of IT people are damn bitter, and understandably so.

Re:From an employer

[Surt]

The problem is that the west coast is a very attractive trap. Great weather/outdoor sports, lots of art and culture, good restaurants, ocean access, etc. It's going to be hard for the midwest to beat that. Add to that that living in a high cost of living has advantages for the smart: max out your 401k every year with ease, drive a nice car because the prices are all pushed down by the high wage earners buying and selling, etc. Finally, there are so many jobs here that even during the worst times a talented person can find work, which is not as true for the less IT dense areas of this country.

So ... what would you have to do to compete (and potentially recruit people away from the west coast):

Get the attention of the person in question ... do you have a strategy for getting them to look at your job offerings? Maybe advertising in some of the (bay area, ca) local newspapers for cheap? (ad: tired of renting a tiny one bedroom apartment?)

Make sure that your hiring story is really going to be solid with respect to what the midwest has to offer. Make sure you can tell a candidate about all the great activities locally that compete with what the west coast has to offer. I'd have pictures on hand from a recent open house showing what a fantastic house they could own in your area, for what price, and how long it would take them to earn that with your job (also documenting things like what a good neighborhood it was in, with such great schools, no commute, etc.) I'd particularly make sure your story on how your company is never going away is strong ... the prospect of getting laid off in a low employment area is scary.

Other than that I haven't much in the way of ideas for you. I would expect it to continue to be challenging to find good IT people in the midwest.

Re:From an employer

[MudButt]

Also, it seems that many people going to college for computer science/engineering aren't even learning the basics -- what colleges have you recent graduates gone to that have taught you real consulting skills, business sense and responsibility?

I'm 28 years old and in college right now. (I dropped out during the .com boom to chase the almighty dollar, and now I have a decent resume and skillset to hold some water).

I can honestly tell you that I built some of the best training, skills, & experience from a combination of on the job, self study, and peers. So what am I seeing at my well respected university? There are a lot of great professors... But I'm not learning anything relevant to the real world. In fact, most Sams & Wrox books would give you a better understanding than the courses I'm taking. Most of my professors went from college, to grad school, to teaching.

My point: College isn't going to teach you "real consulting skills, business sense and responsibility?". College will (at best) lower the learning curve for the real education when you hit the workforce. If I were you, I'd encourage more on the job training.

Re:From an employer

[morgan_greywolf]

We can't find good workers. I've interviewed repeatedly and found the new talent is terrible -- it seems that has technology becomes more "known," the amount of GOOD talent is dropping. I've interviewed some people from top colleges that just don't know their way around a business at all, and I have no desire to train them in exchange for a high 5 figure salary.

Yep. I've been interviewing people for a Unix systems administrator position for our group where I work, and I can tell you that while the vast majority of candidates can probably poke their way around a Unix box from a users' standpoint, actually understanding the toolset from an administration and debugging standpoint seems to be a rare skillset. I can't tell you how man people I asked about various simple day-to-day Unix administration operations who couldn't tell you how they were done because they followed some "procedures" that someone else wrote up or "it's been too long", or "we used [buzzword product X, Y or Z]" or other such nonsense. For instance, many so-called "Linux experts" did not know that the command to list the kernel modules loaded into a running kernel is 'lsmod'. Most thought you could find out that information by reading /etc/modules.conf! (No, I'm not kidding.)

Re:From an employer

[Bob3141592]

The big problem is getting people to move. Regions change and shift and grow, and one of the terrible problems is that to get talent, you may have to get it from somewhere else. I worked with one company who, essentially, raided a neighboring state for talent. Even if the job count stays the same, the type changes.

Moving can be economically risky. If you own a home in your present location, say you've been there for ten years, and now relocate to a new state and a new home, you're likely back at the beginning of a 30 year mortgage. It seems to me the way to primary way people accumulate personal wealth is in their home, and that means staying put until you make real progress in paying down the principal on your home loan, which means the later years.

I've moved three times for my career, and actually lost a little money on a home sale when the Long Island economy collapsed in the mid 90's, and despite a decent income my personal wealth ain't much to brag about. I suspect that had I been more reluctant to move and found a way to stay put, I'd be far better off today.

Granted, my one experience may not be extendable to you. What do others think anout this?

Re:From an employer

[Badgerman]

That's the problem is that the situation is vasly different for different people - which is part of these various trends, I figure.

For me no kids, no home, my wife in a job she'd outgrown, in a city with a meandring economy in the midwest. After I got laid off we basically decided to leave, and specifically targeted areas, companies, and industries appropriate to my skills and our needs. I had more interviews out of the state than in - and in my state I could at least interview for contracts. The employer I went with was one I hadn't even expected to be interested, and proved to be great.

So for us, it came down to staying was a bigger risk than leaving. Staying probably meant career setbacks or stagnation, and eventually being unable to leave if we wanted to, being locked into a limiting geography and set of opportunities. We also had the ability to be mobile.

But not everyone is us, and that's one thing that I find a bit chilling - I'm seeing a Mobility Gap affecting people's economic status. Both of our jobs can be done mobily, as telecommuting, etc. Both of us can move if needed, travel if needed. Not everyone else can.

Among our friends, we see similar signs - some are staying in one area bound by a home, kids, economics, or both. Others are taking their careers mobile, looking at other states and countries.

Re:From an employer

[ErikZ]

I've interviewed some people from top colleges that just don't know their way around a business at all, and I have no desire to train them in exchange for a high 5 figure salary.

You don't see this as part of your problem? News Flash, every company wants the perfect employee to drop out of the sky into their laps and not have to spend a penny on training. So, your choices are:

1. Compete with every company in existence for these type of people.
2. Sit back and complain.
3. Adapt, gain the ability to find diamonds in the rough, prosper.

I'd love to find a resource for good employees, but I guess the answer is right there: good employees don't get fired.

You are using the most advanced communication tool in the history of mankind. On a forum dedicated to computer geeks. Posting about how hard it is to find workers. With just a few keystrokes you should have qualified workers raining down on you. Do you mention what IT skills you need? Do you say what state you're located? At this point, you seem to be the choke point in the system.

I'm not seeing how you can claim you're paying your people well. You pay minimum wage, plus a bonus of up to 80%. That's 9.25 an hour? They must work some serious overtime to get that high 5 figures.

What colleges teach real consulting skills, business sense and responsibility? There aren't any. That's the stuff you learn when out in the business world. College is the degree that gives proof that you can be taught. After that, the businesses have to go through the applicants, hire the one with the qualities it wants, and then teach them the business.

Is that such a horrible thing? Why do you refuse to teach people how to work in your company? Do you even have a mere internship program? If people don't know certain basic concepts, do you tell them to learn them and then come back, or do you have them blacklisted forever?

Re:From an employer

[Maxo-Texas]

I think real estate commissions are way too high and overdue for a reduction. If we could sell our house with a 1% commission, we would be a lot more mobile. I have seen some realtors offering 1% lately- and heck- that can be $2,000 dollars these days- a good week's pay. They would only need to sell 50 houses a year.

In relation to IT and moving- and really moving in general- I have heard too many stories about moving for a job and then getting laid off 3 to 6 months later. Suddenly in a new city with no resources and no job. Great way to be destroyed unless you have significant savings.

Re:From an employer

[grudgelord]

It is my belief that the current aggravated state of the IT employment market is the culmination of an out-of-control train-of-consequences beginning with the employer, ending with the employee and with HR and headhunters squarely at the epicenter of it all. I've pitched more résumés into the black hole of job boards and recruiter sites (and physical walk-ins) with little or no response. Recruiters troll the job boards with non-existent jobs in order to line the filing cabinet with a base of "skilled" employees whom they will never put to work. Of course, these recruiters are kept in business by Human Resources departments who, if they were doing the jobs they were hired to do, wouldn't be relying on recruiters.

Interviewing, when the rare occasion to actually interact with flesh and blood does occur, sees little more success. How does a qualified candidate translate their experience into quantifiable skills that will help the company achieve its goals when those skills don't directly mesh with the impossibly specific matrix designed by unthinking HR drones with little to no grasp of the demands of the position for which they are screening in the first place?

The employers have done themselves no small favor in restructuring the entire state of an industry either. This idea of cross-breeding suits and propeller-heads doesn't work. A business degree is not a computer science degree and a computer science degree is not a business degree. With the exception of a few programs out there designed as "Information Technology" degrees you aren't going to find a CS graduate with an understanding of concepts of TOC and ROI any more than you are going to find an MBA with more than an elementary grasp of how to check his email and download spy-ware. The employer must undertake the responsibility of training their training CS people in business concepts (some do this) and training management in CS concepts (which is rarely done adding to the geek/administration gap in corporate culture) otherwise we fall back to the ethically questionable practice of raiding talent from the enemy camp; thus shuffling the same hand of cards back and forth rather than dealing a fresh hand.

Companies are buying into the technology venders spin and getting big eyes at the technological possibilities of the latest greatest products to come off the shelf (often in little better than an alpha state) without considering the cost of implementation and the resources required to implement said technology. Part of the cost of implementation is ensuring that the employee base is ready to implement it. Of course, the standard response is to layoff those without the implicit knowledge of the new product and hit the meat market. But the product is new and there is no talent base for it yet and in the long run it would have been cheaper to un-ass the budget to train the old IT staff as they likely have a record of adapting to technology in a fast and efficient manner (else they wouldn't be good employees). Fast forward five years: the new product is on the way out a new one has taken its place and the process begins anew along with the complaint, "There are no qualified people".

Personally, I wouldn't touch a job that offered minimum wage, with or without bonuses. I've worked with companies that have some form of "incentive" program and I've been screwed every time. Individual incentives lead to throat cutting (regardless of the industry) and so-called team incentives merely offer employers a method of penalizing the entire team for the poor performance of one or two individuals. I've seen promises of bonuses that never materialized with the employer justifying themselves with ever piss-poor lie they could produce. While I could be wrong, this also seems to suggest that sales numbers are involved. IT professionals have enough demand with temporal performance standards as it stands. Adding financial numbers to the stress levels might serve to drive them away.

Hopefully this will not be inter

Re:From an employer

[Dr_Art]

...I've interviewed some people from top colleges that just don't know their way around a business at all...

So you're interviewing fresh grads and not finding them to be experienced, right?

...and I have no desire to train them in exchange for a high 5 figure salary...

And you want to pay them peanuts and not invest in them at all, right?

...most are instead moving to the west coast, taking a big salaried job...

Wow, why would they ever do that?!?!

...most of my employees work at minimum wage with a large project bonus (up to 80%)

So, we're talking up to $4.20/hr bonus on top of the $5.25/hr base pay?!?!? These guys have to be crazy to pass that up!

...what colleges have you recent graduates gone to that have taught you real consulting skills, business sense and responsibility?...

My guess is that they went to the University of Unrealistic Expectations.

Regards,
Art

Re:From an employer

[tundog]

I've run my IT consulting business now for almost 20 years

I find this surprising given your comments. Sarcasm aside, let me critique your post as an independent consulting professional.

the amount of GOOD talent is dropping

I think you forgot something at the end of this sentence. What you left off was "at the price I'm willing to pay". This is the nonsense that is fueling the outsourcing hype. The talent is out there, just not working for minimum wage.

and I have no desire to train them in exchange for a high 5 figure salary

The companies that "won't be there in 10 years will" are willing to pay a high 5 figure salary AND train. Training is considered a benefit that most serious professionals look for. I'll even go as far to suppose that if you're paying minimum wage, you're not paying health care either. And who cares if the company won't be around in ten years anyway. No one expects to work for the same employer their whole life anymore.

most of my employees work at minimum wage with a large project bonus (up to 80%)

Another reason why you can't find any serious candidates. No serious professional would even entertain this type of arrangement. It's your business and it's your risk. You're asking your potential employee to take a minimum wage job with a bonus that is probably linked to factors he/she can't control. If you hire me, I do an awesome job, but the customer stiffs you, I can be pretty sure that I won't be cashing that extra check. And BTW, even with an 80% bonus, you're still paying less than $10 an hour (based on federal minimum wage of $5.15). You can make more cleaning toilets. No wonder you're relegated to hiring tools.

I have enough people looking to work for us that it isn't the pay structure that isn't helping me find good help.

I deal with a lot of recruiters. Only about 5% are even worth speaking to. Given your pay structure, you must be dealing with the 95% that waste my time.

what colleges have you recent graduates gone to that have taught you real consulting skills, business sense and responsibility?

These things aren't taught in college.

Re:From an employer

[bladesjester]

Not only to live in the midwest but to work there. A lot of the places here are run by (or have hiring departments filled with) people that want all of their employees to be white, straight, clean-cut christians.

Granted, I don't stand out in any of those manners *that* much (I'm Taoist but that doesn't really stand out. The facts that I am not a small guy and the long, neatly kept hair are a little hard to hide and my eyes make me look part Asian - I'm 1/4 Native American), but even I run into that mentality.

If it weren't for the insane cost of living, I'd have absolutely no problem with working in California. I've occasionally pondered Oregon and Washington, but haven't had any bites there.

Re:From an employer

[zettabyte]

I know I'm too late to the game, but:

For those who know, most of my employees work at minimum wage with a large project bonus (up to 80%), and I have enough people looking to work for us that it isn't the pay structure that isn't helping me find good help.

So, your paying people $5.15 * 1.8 = $9.27/hr TOPS? I don't know about the rest of the crowd here, but that seems awfully low for an IT worker. Or are you being loose with the term 'minimum wage'?

Serves you right.

[Wellington Grey]

"Some businesses may in fact regret some of the job cuts they made in recent years, which, in retrospect, may have been too deep. Recent surveys suggest that employers are having an increasingly difficult time finding information technology workers."

So can I be expecting a late night, drunken I'm-so-sorry-I-broke-up-with-you-will-you-please-t ake-me-back phone call from my ex-manager?

-Grey

Re:Serves you right.

[TiggertheMad]

So can I be expecting a late night, drunken I'm-so-sorry-I-broke-up-with-you-will-you-please-t ake-me-back phone call from my ex-manager?

Quite possibly. I suggest the traditional response is the best approach to this situation: Pertend to take him back, and then sleep with his best friend as revenge.

It's true!

[saboola]

I know this because I watch television. In it, they say they IT jobs are in high demand, and all I need is this certificate in order to get a yacht like the guy on the tv. So, this is true.

Make you smile...

[MudButt]

FTFA, "Some businesses may in fact regret some of the job cuts they made in recent years, which, in retrospect, may have been too deep. Recent surveys suggest that employers are having an increasingly difficult time finding information technology (IT) workers."

I was laid off in the fall of 2004 because it was determined that the company could outsource our System Admins and Database Admins to a domestic contractor and co-locate to save a couple bucks in the long run. (You can convince any executive to do anything, BTW, if you have a good PowerPoint ROI chart, laser pointer, and $800 suit).

Long story short, the fine print in the contract stated that only 2 major systems would be outsourced (which amounted to about 40% of the total workload), and after everyone was laid off, the contractor says, "Now... You know that we're not going to handle email, NAS, web services, and other misc systems, correct?"

Needless to say, they're now locked into a 5 year multi-million dollar contract, AND have hired back new system admins to replace the layoffs. I'm not bitter... But it still makes me smile anyway... =)

Re:slashdot

[Wellington Grey]

I wonder if they count people getting cut for reading slashdot instead of doing their job?

Oh... you mean slashdot isn't my job?

::looks around::

So just what am I supposed to do in front of this computer all day then?

-Grey

Improved human rights - executions down 40%.

[khasim]

Tech workers are back in hot demand, according to a report released Monday.

Tech-sector job cuts in the first quarter of 2006 were 40 percent lower than the same quarter last year, according to Challenger, Gray & Christmas Inc., an employment consulting firm.

Gotta agree with you.

Seeing a reduction in the number of people fired in no way translates to "tech workers" being in "hot demand".

Re:Improved human rights - executions down 40%.

[MyLongNickName]

I realize thinking is not a pre-requisit to posting. However, realize that job cuts are a fact of life. Period. Even in the best of markets, some company is cutting jobs.

And even in the worst markets, some company somewhere is hiring.

Basically, this means that the hole in the bottom of the bucket is smaller. And, if you follow other news, you will realize that hiring has picked up.

So, yes, a decrease in job cuts is good news. Your market may vary.

Re:Improved human rights - executions down 40%.

[Ex-MislTech]

No where did it say hiring increased .

Just less lay offs .

Under those conditions and terms a natonwide job freese could be
in effect at most places, and still some lay offs occuring .

What the trend is typically is to hire more L1, H1-B's ,
and offshore or near shore .

Some countries have setup cruise ships off the coast ,
and this is called near shoring .

Bizarre indeed .

http://www.adtmag.com/article.aspx?id=10959&page=

What about the hiring rate?

[VoxCombo]

I guess my follow-up question is this:

What's the current trend in hiring?

That's great if cuts have slowed, but I'd like to know if that means the net number of jobs is increasing

...but for less money

[LoaTao]

CS majors average starting salary dropped 2% according to CNNMoney

Re:From a recent college student

[Anonymous Coward]

lol. you've never even seen a college CS curriculum, have you? i'm doubting if you even went to a US college if you expect people to come out of them with usable job skills in IT, much less those particular skillsets. here's all the business sense i have (and which you seem to forget) compressed into five words:

"fast, good, cheap: pick 2".

if you want employees that are "good" and "cheap" from a technical perspective, you're going to have to train them on soft skills, which doesn't happen overnight. sorry. logic's a bitch...

Re:It is our responsibility..

[sbrown123]

a) They are thousands of miles away.

Wait till the new guest worker program goes in to effect. Yeah, you probably thought it was all about Mexicans picking potatoes out in some farm out west, right? Wrongo. With the new guest worker program, H1B visas are no longer required. Employers can just ship in boatloads of Indians and Chinese to do your job for about 1/4 of the cost. I don't care how skilled you think you are, theres someone who will jump off that boat and say they can do the same job for much less.

President Bush will try to make you think this is all about people working jobs that Americans won't do. He's right. We, as natural born Americans, find it hard to work at wages way below the poverty line.

What can you do to stop this? Write to your two senators and tell them to put a halt to the "guest worker" program. Sure, we have jobs to do and can't go marching around the streets today like the immigrants, but we need to find the time to stop this before it gets out of hand.

Re:Looking for VB.Net developers!

[Kris_B_04]

And where ARE you? :)

Kris

Wages Are Still Down, We Need MORE H1-Bs!!!!

[Vicissidude]

Everything is positive ... if you start from a sufficiently negative point of view.

Exactly. Last year companies like IBM and HP were laying off tens of thousands of employees at a time.

Last Friday, the big news was that college graduates were getting offered more money, except CS grads who were offered 0.8% less than last year's CS grads. If wages are going down, then the demand for labor is going down. For all of you without business degrees, that means there are MORE CS grads than there are jobs.

All this media hype over "highly demanded" IT workers is a bunch of bunk. It's all about making the excuse for more cheap H1-B labor.

Re:Wages Are Still Down, We Need MORE H1-Bs!!!!

[cayenne8]

Well, again, it all depends on what study you are looking at.

According to other studies, CS major enrollments are WAY down...so, not that many new tech people coming into the market...the big, easy $$'s of yesteryear aren't there anymore. And, a lot of the people that flocked to IT that weren't really good, got caught in the bubble crash..and are gone.

So, that leaves a lot of good, older IT people out there...with less competition from new grads...so, with the pool drying up a bit, it looks like IT may have a slight comeback.

At least..if it keeps that trend...and the IT person can call the shots more, it IS an ideal time to incorporate yourself, and hit the consulting/contract circuit...good money to be made, and lots of jobs out there.

My Dad always told me to 'make hay while the sun is shining'....

Re:Wages Are Still Down, We Need MORE H1-Bs!!!!

[sgt_doom]

Exactly so, Mr. V-dude! Unfortunately, I noted that Senator Boxer (in the neoliberal camp) is pushing for an increase in H-1B quotas, along with every single Republican in Congress, of course!

[Well, as Bush has violated the National Security Act, Treason Act, RICO Act and the War Crimes Act - I would say super-traitor is more the proper term.]

Re:Wages Are Still Down, We Need MORE H1-Bs!!!!

[Vicissidude]

Humm.... from here, it doesn't look like companies are really so desperate to get more cheap H1-B labor as you say....

Riiiight.... that's why all the H1-B visas for the year are gone within hours of release. That's why all the corporations are screaming to Congress to increase the number of H1-B visas. That's why Bill Gates recently said Microsoft's number one goal is to increase the number of H1-B visas.

Can you detect my sarcasm from there?

I have no problem finding good talent

[xtal]

Of course, I pay for it, too.

I'm an oldschool technie who realized he'd better figure out this business stuff, fast. We do custom embedded linux work, board-level up, MCUs, etc etc. We're booked. Solid. Yet I get stuff done with low overhead.

What did I do?

I walk the walk. I know good people are easily 100x more productive than average. I know some good people from all my days in the trenches (hi guys). When I want things done, I package it up, and send it off with a big cheque. I don't care where, when, or how.. we work online. I live in the middle of nowhere, handy an airport. That's all that's required to do business.

If one of the guys I work with is doing 10x the work - I'll actually give him 10x the pay!

It doesn't work for all business, but it is working, and I am growing clients and profit.

Something to think about if you "can't get people to relocate" - my advice - make teleconf and virtual offices work for you. Hire the best people available no matter where they are. Reap the rewards.

Re:I have no problem finding good talent

[dada21]

I agree with you 100%. Since I pay my employees up to 80% of the profit on a project (but minimum wage otherwise), they bust their butts to be more efficient, and reap the benefits. I know a few of them who've earned probably US$500 per hour working hard to finish well before the deadline and leave almost zero punch list activities.

That being said, most geeks don't want to take a risk that they might only make US$12k per year (none of my guys do) in exchange for buying their efficiency and responsibility. I am glad I have so much competition, though, because it only helps my business when the bottom and middle level of IT is met by GOOD consultants. I'll happily accept the upper levels while passing on the projects that don't meet my criteria.

I recently sold my big home and vacation condo to move into a small home (trailer, actually), which freed up huge amounts of money, mortgage income-necessity, and time. I've been thinking of moving to a small town with an airport and buying into a private plane co-op so I can travel as I need to. As I find more work is possible remotely (although I prefer working face-to-face with my clients), this might free up even more time and money for me to spend as I want to.

The idea of working a solid 40 hours a week for 50 weeks a year would drive me bonkers, no matter what lifestyle I can pretend I'm living. Glad to hear there are others out there who came to the same realization.

The gravy train ...

[pvera]

... is definitely .net.

I got advance notice in late January that I would be laid off 3/31. Went into panic mode, started looking and all I could find was .net, which was a problem since I had switched the company from classic asp to PHP over the past 3 years or so.

For every call I got about php I got 20 for asp.net. I even learned that one of the biggest recruiting companies in the Washington DC Metro now recruits for .net exclusively.

After two months, my number came up and I got laid off effectively 3/31. I got two offers on 3/31, one to work like an animal in a php/Oracle shop for a huge company, one to work like an animal in a tiny shop that only does .net and is tired of turning down php work because all of the programmers are overbooked. I was able to jump in and do both kinds of work, so I took the job at the tiny shop.

Apart from the near saturation of .net jobs here in DC Metro, there is a lot of Java, but I am very worried about the morons that are doing the recruiting. I actually had a recruiter hand me a job description that had three bold bullets with mandatory Java skills, and he was still trying to con me into applying for the job.

Another problem I saw with the very limited supply of php jobs is that the people that are hiring are absolutely disconnected from the salary curves for this market. They want you to have 10 years of experience in C, C++, PHP, Ansi SQL, JSP, HTML, CSS, XML, etc. then they want to hire you for $50K or less. And they get offended when you laugh in their faces. I noticed this is only a problem with the open source type jobs, the .net people were advertising pretty much right on the median for the salary surveys for the area.

Straight to grad school? Maybe not

[kevinl]

Individual circumstances vary, but going straight to grad school often isn't cheaper in the long run. You're giving up 2 years of earnings (plus raises) and you have to pay for school yourself.

If you're only going as far as a Master's, consider working and having your employer pay for grad school. It's not easy, and it will take longer to finish your degree. But the real-life work experience will give you a new perspective towards your studies that full-time students will miss out on.

Don't procrastinate starting grad school after starting work though. Most people who "take a semester off" never get started. And voice of experience here, try especially hard to finish your degree before having kids.

The parent was dead on about quitting work and paying for grad school with retirement savings. This almost never pays off in the long run.

My biggest gripe is...

[Windcatcher]

...the emphasis on "skill sets" and not on whether you can think and learn.

"Does your skill set include J2EE? No, just Java?"

Click. Phone goes dead, you never hear from that recruiter again.

"Does your skill set include XYZ?"

I'm so sick of this nonsense. The problem, as I see it, is several-fold:

- Recruiters who want the immediate "sell" to get their finder's fee: they only want that person with experience in the exact buzzword they see in front of them

- Employers who don't want to give an intelligent, experienced, agile person the couple of months to learn the new technology flavor-of-the-month

- Employers who think coders are people who simply bang on the keyboard and, if they could train a cat to do the same, they would do so. They don't understand that it takes either education or experience (and likely both) to create code that is efficient, thread-safe, maintainable, etc. Cats can't do this--intelligent, experienced, educated software developers can.

- Employers who have an immediate crisis (hmm...how did they let that happen to begin with?) and want someone they can immediately drop into the meat grinder. When you hear "off to a running start" from one of these, beware.

- Recruiters and employers who don't understant that computer science concepts span languages and technologies and that someone who has grasped them in one implementation of computer science (read: technology) can apply them in another if only given a chance to learn the details (language, API, etc.)

Non-developers are too focused on buzzwords and not on software. What makes software good software goes way beyond particular languages or API's. There are far more workers who can satisfy employers' needs; for some reason they simply won't use them.

Re:Customers care about results...

[sapped]

Customers care about results. If they guy of the boat can't speak english, can't interpret requirements, and doesn't know the clients business it won't matter that he works for $2 per hour.

Really? Why don't come and peddle that crap to my current employer? They obviously didn't hear about your theory before embarking on their current slapdash offshoring initiative.

We are talking here about sending our entire IT dept to a company which doesn't even have PC's for their employees. My numbskull employer agreed to buy them all laptops (at approx 1.7 times average market price).

Currently we are doing knowledge transfer via conference calls. The lines and the accents are so difficult for both sides to understand that we may as well be talking in different languages for the amount of knowledge that is being transferred.

Each time I mention the problems that are going to come our way as a result of this ridiculous approach I am told that I cannot see the "big picture" from my lowly "techie perspective" and these guys are really cheap. I wonder why.

Re:Ask Slashdot -

[ErikZ]

Oh hell no.

I would leverage your CS skills with a non-CS degree. That way, you've got a biology degree and you rock with computers. That way, you've your computer history, and you're available for any jobs that require a biology degree, and you have a college degree.

By doing pure CS you're limiting your prospects.

Re:How about posting a job ad here for us...

[dada21]

I've helped past employees grow beyond being employed by me by helping them finance their own companies. Some still directly compete with me (in an open market), and some subcontract work we can't reach. I don't consider it quitting when I help someone move to their own business, in fact I almost demand that those who work for me look for opportunities to open up their own shops.

Re:outsourcing

[Maxo-Texas]

man...

You have bought the capitalist line hard.

What you are ignoring is that:
1) The people you are competing against are willing to use slave labor.
2) The people you are competing against are willing to use .03 cents per hour labor
3) The people you are competing against are still where we were 50 years ago and are more than eager to completely destroy their lower classes with pollutionl, toxins, and mutagens.

In other words- WE ARE NOT COMPETING ON A EVEN PLAY FIELD.

i leave it to your boundless imagination as to how and why racing to the bottom against slave labor, rampant pollution, child labor, and sub-poverty wages is not a good idea.

---

Seriously man- WAKE UP.

India is an example of how this can go -reasonably- well. They have democracy- they have a middle class. Here we have hard competitors- but their wages are going up because they are valuable. As a reasonable libertarian capitalist type, I'm not particularly against Indian competition (except that they engage in blatant age discrimanation and some other things we would consider illegal but it's minor compared to other countries).

I am against businesses using this cheap labor and then keeping the prices high (often by having laws passed to prohibit reimportation of products that are identical yet 50 to 80% cheaper- re - 2.45 dvd movies in china, $4 medicine in india that we pay $80 for, etc)

In many other countries, this is not the case. In many other countries including china as a large example, we are competing with -slave labor-. Where we are not competing with slave labor, we are competing with heavily exploited people surrounded by armed guards where those who cause problems mysteriously disappear at night.

Again- china is artificially holding its currency low (estimates in the WSJ are that it would double if allowed to float freely) - how fair is that?

---

Are you in favor of a race to the bottom where we have a world with 'nobles' and 'serfs' again? Is that what you want? Because that is where we are headed. In the US it takes the form of offshoring jobs- and a select class making multi-million dollar salary's while claiming hardship and foisting thousands of people off on the rest of us to support. Corporations are built to move their costs to us and to maximize their profits.

Have you so completely bought their propaganda that you can't see how you are paying high taxes so large corporations can use cheap labor and avoid paying benefits to them? How does it feel to cover Walmart's health care bill while a few top executives get to keep the profits?

i don't dispute anything you say

[circletimessquare]

and yet i still wholeheartedly support it

why?

because there's simply nothing better

in other words, people rail against nike sweatshops in indonesia. ok, fine. so what's your superior solution?

the problem is that getting rid of the nike sweatshop does not mean the slave labor workers are suddenly released from their shackles into a beautiful egalitarian world of middle class bohemian western lifestyle

no, rather they go and starve on the streets. so if the choice is between slave labor and starving, they, you and i would choose the slave labor in the blink of an eye

see the real problem now?

so please: i applaud those who decry slave labor in the third world. but please recognize reality: to properly destroy the slave labor conditions YOU HAVE TO PROPOSE A SUPERIOR SOLUTION

it's the difference between positive criticism and negative criticism

because a lot of people are empty idealists: they criticize the negative evils they see in this world

yeah! good for them! do you know how fucking easy that is to do? "that is bad, this is bad, boo hiss" do you know you fucking obvious and useless it is to just say these empty words that everyone ALREADY KNOWS?

omg! some stupid 20 year old rich western college student prick just told me slave labor is bad! oh my god! what a thunderbolt! I NEVER REALIZED THAT BEFORE! how could i miss that!? where would i be in this world without idealistic rich western simpletons!?

but if these empty headed shallow idealists would like to take a healthy dose of reality for once, and realize that in this world, solving problems is actually a game of choosing between two negatives, only one slightly worse than the other, in order to pursue progress, the slow, backbreaking thing progress really is, then maybe all of their criticism WOULD ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING FOR ONCE

and when i say positive criticism with positive alternatives, i am talking REALISTIC positive alternatives. you know, like respecting the countries invovled? you can't march into foregin countries and dictate to them how to run their countries, right? and yet these same idealistic retarded simpletons act like these companies control all of the cards. um, no. the source of the real problem? not some evil multimational corporation. it's the LOCAL CORRUPT ASSHOLES. and if you cricize the local corrupt assholes? what do you hear from them? "ARROGANT IMPERIALISTIC NEOCOLONIAL PATRONIZING WESTERNER!"

see how the problem is a little more complicated than you simpletons suggest yet?

saying "slave labor is wrong" is easy, useless, and obvious. yeah, clap clap, clap! you win the prize! you're a simple minded retard, you can regurgitate what everyone knows already! ;-P

saying "slave labor is wrong, and here is my solution XYZ to remove it" is HARD

so welcome to reality. now try to say something useful, not regurgitate the obvious and think you're actually contributing to solving any problems in this world

my solution? LET PEOPLE HAVE THEIR JOBS. LET MULITNATIONALS BUILD FACTORIES IN THE THIRD WORLD. then WORK with the slave labor employers and force them improve work conditions, and insist third world countries show more transparency, so we know any money is going to the actual poor people, rather than building the next edition on the warlord's villa

i know, it's mundane, simple, slow steps. it lacks revolutionary zeal. except revolutions often just lead to a lot burned buildings, and less work for everyone involved

my solution is slow, unsexy, and uncool. but i'd like you to propose something better

Simple Math

[DeadBugs]

Less jobs = less job cuts. If you cut off 8 fingers, the next round of cuts will be significantly less.

My two cents...

[IceFalcon]

I have been looking for IT work in my SW Mich area for quite a few months. Lots of calls but each required long commuttes (up to two hours away). One of the most frustrating things I see in job postings are the incredibly broad scope of requirements employers are asking for. Makes me think they want slave labor that can do EVERYTHING for NOTHING. As an example, check this one out from a posting just this morning on Monster. They want a junior level person (2-5 years exp. no college or certifications required). This person will have to do the work of a Security Engineer, Network Engineer, CCIE, MCSE, RCE, Sr. Helpdesk Tech., al'etc. The expectations for this position are so far out of reality that there is NO WAY they will find someone who can do all of this stuff. Bottom line is that employers are refusing to allocate sufficient IT $$$ to their budgets so that they can afford to find (and retain) good, skilled people. So they struggle to fill their few positions and need them to do everything for pennies. They will wind up burning out who ever they end up selecting, only to lose them and have to start the hiring process all over again. Just stupid...

Company: Sensicore Inc Location: Ann Arbor, MI 48108 Salary/Wage: [not provided] Benifits: Health, Dental, Vision, Life, AD&D, Vacation, Flex Spending, 401k Status: Full Time, Employee Job Category: Computer Services Relevant Work Experience: 2+ to 5 Years Career Level: Experienced (Non-Manager) Education Level: High School or equivalent

Qualifications, Skills and Personal Attributes:

Computer clients / server / operating system / Peripherals

* Hardware platforms: Dell, HP, IBM, Gateway (laptop, workstation, server, peripherals) * Servers/workstation setup, installation, configuration, firmware upgrade, hardware maintenance and upgrade procedures * Ability to troubleshoot computers and peripheral hardware problems * Knowledge of new hardware technologies, implementation, purchasing process, maintenance support contract options and systems warranty * Operating system: Microsoft WinNT/2000/2003, Win XP, Red Hat Linux, CheckPoint Secure Platform( linux kernel), ONTAP ( NetApps proprietary OS), Cisco platform OS * Service packs, Hot fixes, security updates maintenance requirements * Hardisks RAID implementation hardware/software, standby configuration; NFS, NTFS, FAT file system; storage system (NAS, External Tapes backup ); printers, plotters, scanners, video peripherals troubleshooting/repair ability

Network (LAN /WAN/Intranet/Extranet)

* Network infrastructure technologies, VLANs, subneting, VNPs switching, routing * Capture, monitor and analyze network traffic, bandwidth demands, real time alert notification via e-mail and SMS regarding network status. * Network security solution, firewalls(Checkpoint, PIX, Kerio, BlackICE), access list on external Cisco routers, hardening Operating System for servers expose to internet communication or/and located in DMZ, NAT AND PAT translation * Intranet virus protection, spam and relaying mail solution, intrusion detection * TCP/IP (HTTP,HTTPS, UDP,TCP,DHCP, DNS, FTP, Telnet, SMTP, SNMP, TFTP ....), routing and routed protocols, MTAs, * Cables wiring, patch panels, wireless network implementation

Application / software packages

* Microsoft : Exchange 5.5/2000, SQL2000 server, MS Office (Word, Excel, Access, PowerPoint), MS Visio, MS project, IIS, Frontpage, Terminal services, AD, IIS, internet explorer * Checkpoint: Firewall-1/VPN-1, SecureClient, Smart Defense, Policy server, SecurePlatform * Norton Antivirus Enterprise edition, CiscoWorks, Blackberry server, WS-FTP, Eudora mail server, Norton Gost, TrueImage, Nmap, NetScanTool pro, Veritas BackupExec Enterprise edition, Gftp Server, VNC, Cisco VPN client, WinScp3, PalmOS, MS Outlook,WhatsUp Gold

different technique

[willCode4Beer.com]

I have a couple of different techniques for judging the job market.

There's the inverse fast foot indicator:
if I get really sucky service at a restaurant, the job market is good. When restaurant service is great, the job market sucks.

Then there's the pimp index:
Number and frequency of calls from recruiters

And finally, the swag factor:
When my employer feels the need to increase swag, I know the job market is getting better.

YMMV

Re:"proactive" and "flexible" sound nice, but . .

[avronius]

d'oh - this time in Plain 'ol text...

Maintaining a defeatist attitude is the single biggest deterrent to career advancement.

In order for anyone to find happiness in the workplace, you need to do some soul searching, as well as discovering some things about the real world:
- What type of work makes you happy?
- What type of industry needs someone that can do that type of work?
- What do I do now that I can apply to that industry / job?
- Are there any intermediary steps that I need to take before I can get there?
- Do I need to move to a larger centre (or smaller centre) to get those opportunities?

Very seldom to people stumble into their dream job. You have a job now, and that's a good thing. Look at what you can take from this job and apply to your next job.

When you are job hunting, you should look for jobs that:
- are willing to provide training related to what you wish to do*
* This does not mean that they will train you for 100% of the job, but would be interested in teaching you as much as 30% of what they would expect you to do.
- have a broader scope - allowing you to learn more about how what you do affects other arms of the company
- have more responsibility - providing you with some management skills (project or people)
- will provide you with experience related to where you are going.

Be prepared to relocate for the right opportunity. Understand that the right opportunity is less about money than it is about experience.

Remember that you always have a choice in your career direction. Choosing to do nothing is still a choice.

Re:It is our responsibility..

[sbrown123]

well you can re-snatch that job back by offering to work at a lower wage.

Ignorance must be bliss. You ever hear of a company called Tata? It's probably the largest Indian outsourcing firm. Seen them contracting at a medical company once. They brought in 20 guys on H1Bs. Guys. Not women or families. Their wives and children stay in India. Anyways, they bunked up at six people per apartment. They were paid $500 a month each.

Okay, I have a wife and two kids. Say I offer to do the same job these guys are doing, but like you said demand lower wages so I work for $400 a month. Apartments where I live run minimum of $750 per month. What were you saying: no more million dollar mortgage or luxury car? Your right, at $400 a month it's impossible to have a car or a house and still eat!

But being a techie, you might understand the laws of nature.

Nature and Techies? Your not from around here are you?

You can lobby as much you want and have protectionist laws passed.

Protectionist laws? Did you know there have been laws about ILLEGAL immigrants for years? Who would have thought that ILLEGAL immigrants would do something ILLEGAL. Why don't these people go back and LEGALLY apply for citizenship like thousand of LEGAL immigrants do every year? There is a process and a LEGAL way for citizenship that they are refusing to abide to. What next? Pedophiles and murderers go on marches because they feel that their crimes shouldn't be crimes or punishable? Yeah, I don't know what country you are from but here in the U.S. we try to abide by the laws of the land.

Similarly, as long as there's work here in US, people will come down here.

Thats easy to correct: you jail Americans for hiring ILLEGAL immigrants. Watch those jobs disappear in a hurry.