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AT&T Seeks to Hide Spy Docs
UltimaGuy writes to mention a Wired article about some AT&T documents that have gone off the farm. An ex-employee provided some information to the EFF, to assist in their wiretapping case against the company. Ma Bell is now arguing the files are confidential, and shouldn't be used in a court case. From the article: "The documents, which the EFF filed under a temporary seal last Wednesday, purportedly detail how AT&T diverts internet traffic to the National Security Agency via a secret room in San Francisco and allege that such rooms exist in other AT&T switching centers."
If a civilian has the docs, they can go after him, but there's no fourth amendment protections here. It'd take somebody in the administration classifying them to make them officially restricted.
Just cause AT&T doesn't want them out there doesn't mean squat.
You may recall that Philip Zimmermann was the subject of a criminal investigation over ten years ago over a little asymmetric key encryption program he wrote and made available online.
Recently, he has worked to give the world a very simple program that will encrypt voice communications for any SIP VoIP. It's called Zfone and this news about AT&T working with the NSA covertly is all the more reason you should use it.
I believe Slashdot covered Zfone's release a month ago.
As an American, I value my anonymity and ability to communicate without concern of eaves dropping very highly. I hope to see some VoIP services possibly use Zfone or some level of encryption as a default out of the box feature in the future. If you're concerned for your privacy, read up on Zfone and find out how easy it is to use!
My work here is dung.
I just wonder how long it will be before Mark Klein is repaid for his heroic and patriotic act with legal action from AT&T, a la Stephen Heller / Diebold.
____
~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey
The EFF declined to comment on the filing, while AT&T did not return a call seeking comment.
The call was placed in a queue while all available agents were attending to other customers.
-Eric
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
In papers filed late Monday, AT&T argued that confidential technical documents provided by an ex-AT&T technician to the Electronic Frontier Foundation shouldn't be used as evidence in the case and should be returned.
Big whoop. Copy the documents and hand them back to AT&T. What's the problem? Now that the genie is out of the secret room, so to speak, how does AT&T think this is going to help? They've just received a pretty severe black eye, though most of the public really doesn't know the details, despite the publicity. If I were AT&T, I'd maintain a low profile -- raising a fuss only makes more people get interested in what's in the documents.
GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
Somehow the new AT&T doesn't seem a whole lot different than the old AT&T. They are like the T1000 from T2. It gets chopped up but re-forms. I remember an old cartoon, a Bloom County, I think, that showed the AT&T symbol and they screamed "Death Star!"
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
And all of this in "The land of the Free". Makes you wonder.
200GB/2TB $7.95 Coupon: SAVE90DOLLAR
The submitter didn't point out that if AT&T is claiming the documents are trade secrets, that means they're accurate. Made-up documents wouldn't be trade secrets.
In other words, AT&T has just admitted that they are spying on you.
*waves hand* "These are not the documents you are looking for."
It used to be written with an "R" but for the last 6 years it has been changed without the public knowledge. Now it's the land of FEE FEE FEE PAY PAY PAY, sucker! We own You! Your supreme corporate chairman organization.
In addition, if this surveillence operation is true, then he may be harming national security
No, the surveillence operation itself is harming national security. I am America, you are America. The government isn't supposed to be America, "We, the people" are supposed to be America.
Spy on me, you make me insecure. MY security from the government itself is national security.
I'd rather have Bin Laden kill half of Congress than give up my 4th amendment rights. Without our (now nearly worthless) Constitution, this isn't America.
I'm starting to worry that America died on 9/11. America's bravery sure died, and the America I used to know died.
Next November, please don't waste your vote on terrorists like the Republicans and Democrats -- vote third party!
You are free to vote for and elect a leader that will erode your civil liberties.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
Still, even if we do see AT&T held accountable, they will merely be a scapegoat. The NSA and the government will never be held accountable by anyone.
My 3D Texturing Skinning work (under construction)
he could have argued it with AT&T first or the government.
Have you ever tried to argue something with AT&T? I wanted to keep the old-school rotary phones my grandmother rented from AT&T for 20 years at $3/month. The bastards made me mail them back.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
They contain trade secrets proprietary to AT&T that could help competitors.
What trade secrets? Like how to illegally divert traffic to the NSA?
How long untill someone finds AT&T selling these secret documents in the open for $13 to anyone asking this time?
Echelon. I'm surprised no one has mentioned so far.
More info, for those who has never heard of it before:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON
All rites reversed 2010
This seemed particularly relevant.
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
The NSA and the government will never be held accountable by anyone.
One Word: Revolution
Ma Bell is now arguing the files are confidential, and shouldn't be used in a court case.
I feel for AT&T, I really do. I mean, how would I feel if someone decided to use all those confidential dead hookers in my personal, private basement as some sort of "evidence" in some "trial?" I'd be shocked, I tell you. Shocked.
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
It's funny how people who cowardly value the illusion of safety over the reality of freedom will whore themselves out to Big Brother. "Take my freedoms!" they shout. "Take my rights! Take my liberties! Only make me feel a bit more secure, a bit more safe from the horrible bogeymen you've so kindly invented for me!" It makes me sick. Are you what the Founding Fathers fought for? Benjamin Franklin decried those who'd sacrifice their freedom for the illusion of security- and now one of the biggest voting blocs in the nation is the "Please, take my rights away and make me feel safe from this inflated threat!" You, sir, make me sick.
If only at&t had fully deployed an email and document server which used the Trusted Platform Module to help "protect" the confidentiality of their documents, then they wouldn't have this little problem of the public finding out they're being "protected" by the nsa
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
[alerting terrorists that they are being watched.]
What kind of idiot do you have to be to believe that terrorists don't realise they're being watched? I realise the "Take my rights away, please! They scare me!" crowd overlaps somewhat with the "Those Ay-rabs sure do enjoy having sex with camels!" crowd, but do you honestly believe al-Qaeda is stupid enough to not realise they're being surveilled?
What trade secrets? Like how to illegally divert traffic to the NSA?
I know you meant that sarcastically, but stop and think about the deeper issue in what you've said...
We need to ask ourselves, "WHY has AT&T provided traffic to the NSA?"
Companies do things for only two reasons - Profit, and to (grudgingly) comply with the law. So, AT&T either has established some form of commercial deal where the NSA pays them for data; or part of our new body of unknowable laws says that all sufficiently-large communication nexus must provide the spooks with a feed.
So, you could argue that releasing this information could help AT&T's competition either make money or to less burdensomly comply with secret laws.
Either way, I say fuck 'em all, they can have all my traffic and waste massive CPU time decrypting it just to find out what time I need to pick up my dry-cleaning. I'll still support the EFF, ACLU, and whoever else wants to take up this fight; but I learned long ago not to trust any organization (government or private) to behave in a particular way (ie, not spying on US citizens) just because our national code-of-fiction says so. The only liberty has a firing pin, and the only privacy has a unique private key.
Discuss amongst yourselves...
Yes and no.... In a perfect world, yes -- it would help fight terrorism; even if the terrorists are using encryption there is meta-data there to be mined.... when you cross-reference the data begin and end points you can still get the jist of what may be going on; do so with *ALL* traffic on the 'net and you can certainly learn something useful.
On the other hand, it would have been clear to a child that Osama and friends were going to take over commerical jets for nefarious deeds long before 9-11 if they'd had access to all the same information that was circulating in the 'intelligence community'. As you say, the problem was (in-part) the disability to tie all that information into a cohesive report that the top-brass would listen and react to in time to make a difference.
Gathering more information is useless if it's not properly filtered and disseminated.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss
From TFA: Klein's duties included connecting new fiber-optic circuits to that room, which housed data-mining equipment built by a company called Narus, according to his statement. Ok, so from Narus' site, the profile of a member of the Board of Directors: William P. Crowell William P. Crowell is an independent security consultant and holds several board positions with a variety of technology and technology-based security companies. Since 9/11 he has served on the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) Task Force on Terrorism and Deterrence, the National Research Council Committee on Science and Technology for Countering Terrorism and the Markle Foundation Task Force on National Security in the Information Age. Bill's past positions have included President and Chief Executive Officer of Cylink, a leading provider of e-business security solutions as well as a series of senior positions at the National Security Agency, including Deputy Director of Operations and Deputy Director of the Agency. He has also served as chairman of the President's Export Council (PEC) Subcommittee on Encryption, which worked with the Administration, Congress and private industry to substantially loosen restrictions on the export of encryption products and technology. May the conspiracy theories commence!
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. - John 14:6 NLT
I vaguely recall a case in which an inventor was denied the right to pursue a patent infringement case based upon the grounds of government security concerns. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the specific circumstances of the case, perhaps someone else can help me clarify. Nevertheless...
If the government decides that this case threatens national security this case will never make it to the deposition stage...much less a trial hearing. AT&T merely has to seek intervention from the government on their behalf. With the corroboration of the government this case will get squelched in no time flat. And, in theory, all that should required is the statement that this technology was developed under contract for the US government. At this point such a statement should have little damning effect as our executive as effectively admitted outright to extra-judicial wiretapping.
On a slightly different note, am I the only one who is having flashbacks of the Echelon and FBI Carnivore projects?
"09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0"
You're telling me that the place they're doing this is SAN FRANCISCO? Are you kidding me?
They don't think that people in that city would storm the offices where this is going on (well, supposedly going on)?
That's exactly what would happen. Wouldn't even matter if the story were true or not.
They want to keep the documents out of court because they say they are confidential. Well what about my internet traffic that was intended to be confidential also. They had no problem sending that to the NSA. I say they loose any right they might have had to confidentiality. What is good for the goose is good for the gander!
-- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
And you know ... that's one of the best objections to Trusted Computing there is, and one of the most important reasons the big boys are pushing for it. That much less accountability (as if they really have any now, any bets AT&T gets off with a wrist-slap on this one? Anyone?)
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Thank you for continuing to hold. For security and training purposes, this call and previous and future calls may be monitored. Please enter your 10-digit phone number. Thank you. Your call will be routed to the unBilling department, where agents will shame you into forgetting about that double-charge on your bill by reminding you of what kind of porn you like to view and relaying your mp3 data to the RIAA.. Your call is important to us. Please continue to hold as authorities converge on your residence.
These figments of an overheated neocon imagination?
ahref=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qd r=all&q=beheading+video&btnG=Searchrel=url2html-29 874http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=a ll&q=beheading+video&btnG=Search>
Right right, we made that all up.
Carry on, then!
Expecting your unencrypted copper lines to not be tapped is equivalent to undressing in your bathroom with non-frosted windows and expecting nobody to look. Just because the government is required to get warrants to admit the evidence in court doesn't mean that they have gotten a warrant for every tap ever done, typically they can glean info on where to find more evidence.
Also, don't you think that line technicians for phone companies haven't overheard everything from illegal to racy conversations? I'm pretty sure that if in the course of checking lines he overhears a blurb about illegal stuff he can call the police and relay a tip.
So I say again telecom privacy is a flimsy protection at best, only you can ensure your own privacy.
The threat to American citizens is massively overstated- you are far, far more likely to die in an accident, of a disease, or hell, even of a drug overdose than in a terrorist attack. Of all the potential causes of death in this country, terrorist strike is waaaaaay in the back. You're allowing yourself to be manipulated into being afraid, and allowing them to use your fear to destroy the liberties that make America great. Your fear is contemptible- your capitulation is disgusting.
Any particular half you have in mind?
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
We are posterity. We would like the Earth you borrowed from us back, please.
Screw future generations. What have they ever done for me? (I kid, I kid).
...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
If ATT's not doing anything wrong, what have they got to hide?
(quoting some Wired one-sentence paragraphs from the article)
"In papers filed late Monday, AT&T argued that confidential technical documents provided by an ex-AT&T technician to the Electronic Frontier Foundation shouldn't be used as evidence in the case and should be returned.
The documents, which the EFF filed under a temporary seal last Wednesday, purportedly detail how AT&T diverts internet traffic to the National Security Agency via a secret room in San Francisco and allege that such rooms exist in other AT&T switching centers."
These papers were filed under seal. Thanks to our government, and despite what the Constution says, you don't have to make documents public anymore to use them in court. AT&T isn't arguing against these documents being disclosed publicly, they are trying to remove them from evidence.
It's not the same, and it doesn't involve trade secrets or anything like that.
Besides, I don't see protection of trade secrets in the Constution. If the EFF has a legitimate Constutional challenge to make here, it trumps AT&T's trade secret protection anyway.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
All specifically mentioned in the First Amendment to the US Constitution
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Actually the death of America may predate 9/11/2001. You should read MajestyTwelve sometime, which predates 09/11/2001 by four years. I used to read that stuff as a lark (I got into it after George H.W. Bush referred to the "new world order" and "thousand points of light"), but when the WTC attack happened I remembered reading about using the middle east to squash liberties here in America in a massive power grab in that "wacko conspiracy theory" and thought "Hmmm" - searched for it and re-read it. Strange.
t m
Check it out:
http://www.hourofthetime.com/majestyt.htm
http://www.puppstheories.com/majesty.htm
http://www.sherryshriner.com/cooper/majestic_12.h
A lot of it comes across as kooky (especially the extraterrestial bullshit), but truth is becoming stranger than fiction here, especially where limiting of the first, fourth, and second amendment "inalienable" rights is supposed to be somehow guaranteeing our freedom.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
I can't agree more. I've made the same argument many times, pretty much to anyone who would listen.
If you really look at what's happened since 9/11, it's quite clear that the terrorists have won. I say this because we've allowed our fear to override all other considerations and the powers-that-be have gleefully run with this to the point that we're well on our way to a totalitarian police state (issues like TFA make that rather clear).
The proper reaction would have been to immediately hunt down and destroy everyone who participated in the 9/11 attack, regardless of who they were and where they were. If some collateral damage happened, so be it. Yes, there would have been some that condemned that action but I'm certain the majority of the world would have respected us for having the balls to do it and it would send a clear message to other would-be attackers: Attack us and we'll kill you and everyone who knows you. Nothing else should have changed at all -- we certainly don't need the increased airport security since passengers now understand they have nothing to lose so they won't sit meekly obeying the hijackers, they'll take them out.
But we didn't do that. Instead we cower frightened in our houses and tell the government it's OK to do whatever they want so long as we're safe. Makes me sick. It's getting so hard to override the impulse to strangle those idiots who spout "if you're not doing anything wrong..."
Sorry for the rant (but it felt good).
--
Politics: The art of pushing people just short of revolt.
If an employee knows that his company is committing an illegal act, then it is his or her prerogative to alert the public and the judicial system; this is what is known as the "whistleblower" status. Whether or not the documents involved are confidential has absolutely no bearing.
The only shady part is whether or not the Patriot Act or other rights-inhibiting measures can cover AT&T's ass, or the asses of the agencies involved. If the Patriot Act had not been passed, believe me, AT&T would be in a world of shit.
Ex nihilo nihil fit.
> If you really look at what's happened since 9/11, it's quite clear that the terrorists have won.
1) I think it's safe to assume this bugging, and secret office existed before 2001.
2) just because the terorrist attack allowed our government to try and legitimize everything that they were doing before, it actually allows us to note this and fight the long battle to undo it.
>The proper reaction would have been to immediately hunt down and destroy everyone who participated in the 9/11 attack
killing is just to feel good, should have done whats necessary to kill their power. Then rather taken the $250 billion we have spent in Iraq, and just built a trade center building in every state, basically say, try and get them all (WTC cost 1.5 billion to build in 1966).
"In addition, if this surveillence operation is true, then he may be harming national security be revealing it to the general public and alerting terrorists that they are being watched."
They already know that. Everyone on the face of the earth knows that already, in fact.
I dream of a better world... one in which chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.
FYI,
The source code was printed in a book in order to circumvent U.S. Export Restrictions at the time.
Excerpt from Phil's Site
Heck, some of SlashDot may not have been born at the start of events from The Hacker Crackdown. For those who don't recall, BellCore claimed that the E911 document stolen and published in Phrack was worth almost $80,000... despite it later being shown that BellCore was selling documents containing all the same information with more detail for $13 to anyone who bothered to ask.
//Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
:First time post:
As an at&t customer I think wiretapping paying customers WITHOUT disclosure is immoral. While I support intelligence gathering to prevent another 9-11, the government should also openly disclose when they implement wiretaps.
Just let customers and citizens know before rolling these helpful but intrusive technologies. Otherwise good technology becomes evil.
When the story about the administration circumventing the FISA court first broke, did anyone wonder why the administration hadn't just used the procedure in the FISA law? It's not a hard procedure -- the government gives a list of names and suspicions to the court, the court says yes, and the government begins monitoring those people. Those judges are pretty tame. Why go to the legal trouble of claiming the president "has inherent power" to ignore the law? Why not just follow it?
The answer, as is now becoming clear, is that they couldn't follow the law and do what they wanted to do. Rather than ID a suspect and monitor his comms, they wanted to look at all comms and use them to ID suspects. This AT&T story will eventually reveal that they have been monitoring all comms to, from, inside, and outside of the U.S. for some time. Somewhere, buried deep under classification, is an Executive Order authorizing it. The best we can hope for is that that order is dated in the fall of 2001. It could very well be earlier.
Uh, how is that a troll, asshole?
Fucking n00bs with mod points, Get your mouth off of Bush's cock.
Oh come on, be generous, can't Bin Laden kill =all= of congress?
It would make this problem so much simpler...
Happiness does not come from having much, but from being attached to little.
I'm starting to worry that America died on 9/11. America's bravery sure died, and the America I used to know died.
Me too. And it wasn't bin Laden that killed it. It was George W. Bush.
One Word: Revolution
To tell you the truth, I'm a little scared of this. I mean these government guys have shown to me again and again that they really like their power and the $$ benefits for themselves (salary for life even after one term?) and for their friends and business partners. To keep it, they will push, destroy, lie about and even kill anyone who gets in the way. Yes, even start a war! These mofos are fucking insane!!!!
There used to be a piece of paper called The Bill of Rights that used to make me feel safe from them, but no more. They tell us that they have the right to detain anyone indefinitely without telling anyone or charging anyone. And if we question them, well, we're for the terrorists. What a bunch of boloney, man.
Just think, just because you said "Revolution", even though you posted as an Anonymous Coward, Dubya probably already has your IP address from CmdrTaco and well, I wouldn't be surpised if they kill you and accuse you of being a terrorist. Maybe this will be one of those "missing person" cases, or unsolved murders. Who knows? It's been nice talking to you.
am i the only person who has seen nothing of this in newspapers?
adarn
You really do have to feel for AT&T here.
I mean, we all know how bad it feels when someone intercepts your private communications.