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TiVo vs EchoStar - TiVo Wins
ssuchter writes "A jury just ruled in favor of TiVo in their suit against EchoStar, awarding TiVo $73M of the $87M they asked for. From the article: 'TiVo had sought $87 million in damages from the Dish satellite-TV network in a patent dispute that TiVo lawyers said could be "life or death" for the company that sold the first box for pausing and rewinding live television.'"
They had to rewatch the decision 7 times on their TiVo.
Mistrial! ;)
Good to hear an innovative company is able to have its patent respected...
Bad thing is, the lifespan on a patent will probably make that what is right now good news, later becomes bad news
No sig for the moment.
If EchoStar's lawyers argued the case with lines like:
"I don't think 190,000 people would have bought this particular toy if they could have gotten it free from their cable company."
no wonder they lost. I think that was TiVo's point, free boxes from the cable companies ( if you want to call subsidized by higher cable rates "free") cost Tivo sales.
Tivo has a current promotion in which you actually get the box for free.
--
On another note, while this is a victory, it is not that much. 73 million does not go a long way now, however, it will stave off the Tivo is dead people because now Tivo will have some operating cash flow (assuming they get it quickly; with appeals, maybe in the next five years).
Quality Hosting e3 Servers
So I have an EchoStar DVR, this mean the DISH networks goons are going to have to 'upgrade' it?
Great win for Intellectual Property rights, now the public will have more expensive PVR's.
:(
Shame there always has to be a trade off
TiVo's suing competitors for patent infringement rather than trying to outcompete them.
Is MythTV next?
FATALITY!
Well Tivo did win the first trial (or the first battle in the war) but this is far from over. Let's look at a few points: 1) EchoStar posted profits of 1.5 billion for the year 2005. Tivo by contrast hasn't posted any profits and has lost close to half a billion since their inception. So guess who has the bigger pockets? 2) The next court that EchoStar will likely appeal to typically overturns 40% of the lower court rulings 3) Tivo's patent is currently being investigated by the US Patent Office. If they revoke that patent you can pretty much kiss Tivo good bye. It should be interesting to see how this battle continues.
What the hell kind of patent is that?
What kinds of patents does TiVo actually have? Are things like MythTV at risk?
I have been considering writing my own Myth-like software. I would hate to get it shut down because of some stupid GUI patent or something.
The ratio of people to cake is too big
... and it's not a TiVo. It's a VCR that uses disk instead of tape to do it's recording. Yeah you get the benefits of a random access storage medium, so you can watch whil you record and pause, etc.
But is doesn't have the nice features that TiVo has. I can't record all episodes of a certain show, I can only give it a time to record (and it doesn't auto adjust if a game goed long). I can't tell it to record everything for a certain actor. Amongst other things.
Now I never used a TiVo, but from what I have been told, the Dish PVR doesn't compete.
This was one patent I wanted to be upheld. Tivo put a lot of work into getting DVR's off the ground, and the have a rabid fanbase but almost nothing to show for it. Tivo makes a great product, I'm glad they won the first round and hope that this is the start of really good things for the company. As someone who has used the knock off's they sure didn't do a good job knocking them off, their product sucks. That said - I know a few people who absolutely love my tivo's but are content just getting by with the cable companies DVR because it only costs $6/month, which is exactly what this lawsuit is about. Sure did make my purchase of stocks last Friday pay off :)
On the one hand I'm happy to see a company that created a truly new product be rewarded.
On the other hand I'm not sure that what TiVO did wasn't obvious. Using a HD rather than a videotape was surely obvious and automating the process of recording shows is not only obvious but far from original. All TiVO did is put both of these things together in a convient package and I find it hard to formulate any principled rule that would call TiVO's developments non-obvious but NPT's blackberry patent obvious.
The difference seems only to be that geeks like TiVO and TiVO hasn't being suing individuals who decide to set up their computers to tape shows for them. But if they do get their patent enforced that is exactly what they *could* do in the future.
In the end I tend to think the TiVO patent should have been rejected as obvious. However, I think the only reason TiVO didn't make money is the monopoly cable companies and satellite companies have on their markets. When data service becomes the commidity everyone buys and there is free competition amount content providers on an open protocal companies like TiVO won't be shut out by monopolists who can make it difficult for TiVO to penetrate their markets.
If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:
I am surprised that TiVo won this case. Dish network had the 7100/7200 which could pause and record live TV before TiVo's patent. It may have been a piece of shit but it was still first. Obviously Echostars product would improve over time and the similarities of the current models are logical advance in the technologies.
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
I've not used TiVo, however, I do own a Dish PVR - used to be their top of the line model - the 942.
Dual Dish Tuner, Off-Air TV Tuner, plus 2 outputs - seperate remotes for each output...
Here's the cool part.
I can record off both dish tuners, the off-air tuner, and watch 2 previously recorded shows on the other outputs.
So essentially 5 different things going on at once.
And yes - you can configure Dish to record all kinds of ways.
#1 All episodes of a given show.
#2 All NEW episodes of a given show - ie - only record episodes released in the current year, do not record re-runs.
#3 All shows with "xyz" in their name.
I haven't dug any further, yet I know there are more options.
Who is general failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
If I'm not mistaken ReplayTV was out before Tivo so saying they were the "first" is rewriting history.
Found on a TiVo press release.
US Patents
6,850,691 - Automatic playback overshoot correction system
6,847,778 - Multimedia Visual Progress Indication System
6,792,195 - Method and Apparatus Implementing Random Access and Time-Based Functions on a Continuous Stream of Formatted Digital Data (continuation of 6,327,418)
6,757,906 - Television Viewer Interface System
They also have exclusive licensing rights to
5,241,428 - Variable-Delay Video Recorder
Japanese Patents
3615486 - Multimedia Time Warping System
Chinese Patents
ZL 99804757.0 - Method and Apparatus Implementing Random Access and Time-Based Functions on a Continuous Stream of Formatted Digital Data (see US patent 6,327,418)
ZL 00805987.X - Data Storage Management and Scheduling System
This is of March 2005, they may have more since then. Also, if you want to search the text of the US patents, you can start here
Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds.There upon the rainbow is the answer to a neverending story
Disclaimer - I used to work for Philips. I'm still using a Series 1 Tivo that has been seriously upgraded. I own some Tivo stock.
Tivo has been compared to the VCR and with that logic, does not deserve patent protection. I disagree and believe that Tivo did innovate and does deserve patent protection.
What Tivo did first:
1) Downloadable program guide - Before Tivo, the only automated way to record was VCR+. It was lame and with TV Guide print deadlines 3-4 week before publish date it was shaky.
2) Digital recording - Though I agree that substituting a hard disk for a tape (media) may not deserve a patent, Tivo was the first successful use of mass market MPEG-2 recording. My tivo was 20 hours at first, this was an exponential leap. Tivo took open-source code (Linux), developed proprietary code and hardware, a dial-up infrastructure and made it work. They also, to the best of my knowledge, have honored the GPL and released their GPL tainted code back.
3) User interface - don't even try to tell me this is derivative of any VCR interface that exists today. Tivo's GUI is 6 years old and it still works well.
4) 30-sec skip, wish lists, filters, etc. might be considered standard now but when Tivo implemented them, they were revolutionary to the TV market and pre-digital TV.
I ABOLUTELY do not believe in patent protection where prior art exists or where it's basic physics or biology, etc. that someone is trying to patent. That said, I believe that Tivo innovated, took risk, and is trying to defend its investment and true intellectual property. This is what the patent system and at a more basic level, property rights are all about.
The real issue and problem is not Echostar, it is Hollywood and the MPAA. Tivo is the ultimate fair-use device. They deserve protection for their ideas and the right to survive in a FAIR market on their own ideas.
"I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
Oh yea, 5) they acutally filed and payed for the patents. Now they are paying to defend them.
"I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&wo rd1=tivo&word2=EchoStar =)
As a Tivo stockholder, I've been following the trial as closely as I could. The patent focused on what they called the 'time warp' aspect. What came out in testimony was that the original echostar dish stuff could *not* let you watch a prerecorded program *and* simultaneously be recording a new program. It seems this functionality only made its way in to dish products *after* they had access to a Tivo which the Tivo dev team left them during a licensing/partnership meeting. Bad move on Tivo's part to leave equipment in a potential competitor's hands, obviously. What seemed to come out is that it was true the original echostar dish products *didn't* infringe on the Tivo patents, but that's not what they've been selling for a long time - they've been selling products that infringe on the patent.
So, given that such a large company had a 'similar' product on the market *before* Tivo, and it didn't have anywhere close to the functionality which Tivo patented, it would seem to be that the 'non-obvious' or 'novel' aspects of the patent got a significant boost. If it was such an 'obvious' way of performing this trick, the people with an earlier technology would have indeed developed the 'obvious' technique and used it in their product.
creation science book
I know a lot of ./'ers like their Tivos and all but this is just another stupid patent that should be rejected. If Tivo dies because of competition then sorry but that's irrelivant. Patents aren't a crutch for weak business models. They're supposed to give an inventor time to develop and deliver their product (and that's if it's NOT Just Another Stupid Patent). Providing a service to schedule recording TV shows to a hard drive is mildly innovative but it is not a "eureka" moment, it's just bundling. You could record a show to magnetic tape at a certain time with a run-of-the-mill VCR.
TiVo's patent in question is on being able to record one show while using the same device to watch another. Dish's prior recorder that allowed pausing of live TV isn't really prior art of that.
That's right, don't mess with my Tivo.
Half the time I'm right, the other half you're wrong.
The Abekas A62 disk recorder could record one video stream, while playing back another. It was introduced in the mid 1980's, so any patents involved have likely run out by now. Abekas even won an Emmy award for it in 1986.
It was meant for professional studio use, cost about $150K, and only held 100 seconds of video - but hey, that was 20 years ago. I'm not sure how Tivo can claim to have invented the technology.
EchoStar Statement Regarding VERDICT IN TiVo Inc. v. EchoStar Communications Corp. LAWSUIT
April 13, 2006 - This is the first step in a very long process and we are confident we will ultimately prevail. Among other things, we believe the patent - as interpreted in this case - is overly broad given the technology in existence when TiVo filed its patent. We believe the decision will be reversed either through post-trial motions or on appeal. Additionally, the Patent Office is in the process of re-examining TiVo's patent, having determined there is a substantial question concerning the validity of the patent.
DISH Network subscribers can continue to use the receivers in their homes, including their DVRs. Furthermore, TiVo dropped their claim that EchoStar's Dishplayer 7200 DVR infringes their patent.
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
I commented here already, but wanted to reiterate this. It was the 'time warp' feature which this patent trial was about - the ability to perform simultaneous functions, such as recording live TV *and* watching something that was prerecorded (while also being able to pause/rewind/ff/skip-ahead in that program).
What came out at the trial was that echostar's original products did *not* have that functionality. They only incorporated that after getting their hands on a tivo system (which Tivo rather naively or stupidly left with them after a meeting).
Patents are to reward 'non-obvious' or 'novel' inventions. If Tivo functionality was 'non-obvious', why did the companies which had DVRs out well before Tivo (and has far more resources to throw at these projects) *not* include such 'obvious' functionality? Why did they not patent it first, considering they were apparently working in the digitial media field before Tivo? Because, as hard as it is to believe, some of this really *was* non-obvious at the time. Yes, today it all seems obvious, and there are a dozen posts here talking about how their Dish DVRs (or anyone else's) have dual tuners, can record/playback simultaneously, have 'record all programs'-type functions, and so on. Most of these functions are copying the original pioneering work of Tivo, and they don't deserve to have all that R&D ripped off by others too cheap/greedy/stingy to pay the licensing costs.
Had echostar been able to prove they'd had similar stuff under development simultaneously, I might hold a different view of this trial's outcome, but nothing I read (admittedly, there wasn't much reporting direct from the courtroom) indicated echostar had any innovative work going on which would have matched the tivo work/patents. I wrote a little more on this here.
creation science book
This is good, because I own a bit of stock in TIVO, and I now stand to make a good bit of money.
"All it takes to fly is to hurl yourself at the ground... and miss." - Douglas Adams
That's what the moderation system is supposed to be for, but it lacks the features to be really useful.
I think one of the reasons they didn't include such functionality is pressure from broadcasters/advertisers. The ability to record and watch simultaneously almost inevitably entails the ability to skip commercials.
The fact that it wasn't yet on the market hardly shows that it wasn't obvious. It may not have been obvious that this feature would make a profit/be popular but the patent office doesn't grant patents on realizing that something would make money. The patent office grants patents based on the technology/idea being non-obvious (though buisness method patents do make this a bit fuzzy but this isn't relevant here).
The technology to watch and record at the same time is really obvious. Even the idea that this would be nice is pretty obvious. What do you want to bet that if we went back to usenet archives before TiVO we could find someone wishing he could time delay with his VCR or suggesting that this be done with a HD? TiVO just realized that this would be a sucesful product.
If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:
I think tvguide.com has the prior art there...
Since when did "successful" or "mass market" have anything to do with patents?
Good for them, but that's completely besides the point.
No, it's not like a VCR, it's much more like old computer menu systems. Besides, you don't patent an interface, it's just protected under standard copyright, just like Windows, Mac OS X, etc.
Again, that has nothing to do with this at all. This is sounding more and more like your own little personal Tivo commercial, having nothing to do with patents or prior art.
Something every single computer video player had, from Quicktime to WMP.
Have you ever heard of a database. This is all absolutely trivial to do on any sort of information you have available.
Good for Tivo. They moved digital into the living room, and all the people who had never used a computer before were amazed...
There's still nothing at all remotely patentable in this list.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Read the Fucking Patent.
TiVo's patent is for a particular method of recording one program, while watching another using low cost components. Clearly someone can come up with some other method of achieving this using low cost components or use just use more expensive components and not infringe on their patent.
As of my posting, the parent comment is rated as a troll. As far as I can tell, this is because the moderators like TiVo. If this were any other company, half the posts here would be saying the same thing as the parent.
TiVo deserves credit for being first to market with a working product, but I see nothing about about their product that is original enough to be deserving of patent protection. It's possible that there are aspects of their hardware design that are patentable, but with advancing technology it should be nothing that can't be worked around for slightly greater cost.
TiVo did not invent digital recording nor digital playback. They were merely the first to successfully commercialize it.
Recording and playing at the same time? Please! I could do that using two VCR's twenty years ago. Bundling the functionality in a single package due to advancing technology is so obvious it hurts.
Specifying shows you want to have recorded using parameters other than times of day is certainly obvious. I've done it before. (Hey Bob! Can you record the Simpsons for me? Thanks. ) The only challenge there is creating the database of descriptions of television shows. Having software guess at what you might want to watch has only not been done before because of the limitations (time-wise) of the recording medium.
The idea that any of these things should be patentable is absurd. Hardware designs to achieve these ends may be patentable but the functionality itself ought not be. Did the Wright brothers patent flying? No, they patented the design of parts of their flying machine.
It's good to make lists like this but there are a couple to shorten it by.
2) Digital recording - Though I agree that substituting a hard disk for a tape (media) may not deserve a patent, Tivo was the first successful use of mass market MPEG-2 recording.
As others have mentioned the original Dish Players had rudimentary recording before TiVo. They've been MPEG-2/DVB since inception.
4) 30-sec skip, wish lists, filters, etc. might be considered standard now but when Tivo implemented them, they were revolutionary to the TV market and pre-digital TV.
There were some VCR's on the market with a 30-second skip button.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Oh yea, 5) they acutally filed and payed for the patents. Now they are paying to defend them.
Patents are offensive tools and TiVo is using them offensively. You can use an offense defensively, such as when IBM says to SCO "hmmm, interesting, now about these two hundred patents *we* have that *you're* violating" but it's still a threat of offense.
I guess you could get a patent defensively if you invent a technology and never intend to sue anybody about it but find it cheaper to register than to defend and prove prior art. Maybe that happens but just isn't publicized.
TiVo may feel that EchoStar was on offense in the market or on ethics but in the courts it's TiVo on offsense.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&wo rd1=tivo&word2=echostar
TiVo beats Echostar by an order of magnitude :)
GCS/S d-x s+(+): a C++++$ UL+$ P+ L++$ !E--- W++@ N++>$ !o !K-- w++$ !O !M !V PS++>$ PE !Y PGP+ t+ 5++ X++ R tv b
It doesn't matter who's on each side of the argument - but any outcome in favor of a software patent is bad. Very bad.
You are absolutely wrong about no downloadable program guide before TiVo.
There were both StarSight and VideoGuide, both sold in the mid 1990s before TiVo.
VideoGuide actually had a nice GUI interface with a comfortable simple remote. Except for the limitations of Tape (no random access, no way to delete shows or know what was on which tape), it was quite comparable to TiVo. It downloaded program guide data via a wireless interface (based on a pager network). You could buy the units at any RadioShack.
Even if EchoStar fails in appeals court, the Damages will most likely be capped depending on State law. I think about 30 states have caps on punitive damages, VA being the most extreme - where punitive damages are caped at $350,000 even. Jury's aren't told about the caps. They come out of the court room thinking they really stuck it to the defendant, and as soon as they leave, the Judge reduces the number according to the state's law. (That one that applies is where the injury occurred)
Newspapers almost always report the non-capped number. Rarely if ever will we find out about the final judgment - sometimes billions of dollars less than what was initially proposed.
The Texas state law for Punitive Damage's(as explained in the context of the Merck/Vioxx trials) is a little confusing, and potentially dangerous to EchoStar since TiVo is claiming they have had $650 million in economic damages in the past nine years. But if TiVo really believed that was true, I suspect it would have sought much higher damages than they did.
knowing that some of the money i pay to Dish might go to Tivo. I have had great enjoyment and a continued desire to never spend money directly to tivo, and have LONG hoped for the end of Tivo Inc. All of the High minded Ideals that Tivo spouted, "TiVo gives you the ultimate control over your TV viewing". Content flagging? It sounds like you have lost control of your TV again, and this time you get to pay for the privilege!
Dirty, that is how i feel knowing that my money may go to this shit-hole of a company! i wish i could take a shower and get the feel of it off of me.
How does this relate to the ReplayTV. I purchased a Panasonic Showstopper 2000 five years ago. It has similar features to Tivo, some better (30-second skip wasn't in Tivo years ago), some worse (no season pass). Most DVR articles neglect to mention competing products. Has Tivo successfully sued over the ReplayTV?
signature pending slashdot approval
I disagree and believe that Tivo did innovate and does deserve patent protection.
Tivo may well have thought innovatively, and be a great company -- but remember, you can't patent great ideas, and that's what exactly most of what you describe sounds like.
If they had a sufficiently non-obvious mechanism to implement some of their great ideas, they could patent the mechanism, but anybody else is quite free to come along and use a different method with the same result. Even if Tivo thought of it first.
We live, as we dream -- alone....
Patent infringement cases are exclusively federal jurisdiction, so any state laws pertaining to damages would be completely irrelevant. More importantly, there aren't "punitive" damages in patent infringement cases -- the patentee is entitled to lost profits or a reasonable royalty for past infringement and an injunction against future infringement. Where the jury finds the infringement to be willful, that number can then be trebled.
I completely fail to see what all the broo HA hA is about ..
you want to watch something again well thats easy wait an hour switch up a chanel or 2 and bingo the whole lota again repeated repeated repeated repeated repeated
It is about time people spen more time effort and money producing more watchable tele to start with this endless repeats crap is just that crap and things like TiVo only enhance the problem the video recorder was a pain now looks like TivO may be heading the same way .
You haven't described anything that should be eligible for patenting. You don't get patents for making a widget that does X, you get a patent for the particular way in which it achieves doing X.
So ok, 30 second skip is a useful idea, it was new, I'm not going to debate if it's an idea or not. It doesn't matter - a valid patent would be one for the particular way they achieved doing a 30 second skip. And although I have no idea how the Tivo works, I don't believe their method of achieving that was unobvious. In fact, I bet that forwarding a MPEG-2 video by an arbitrary number of seconds was already well known, and they probably used a method that was already common.
It seems that the Tivo did some pretty cool things that were new at the time, however, none of the underlying specific technology was patent-worthy or even new.
I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
6,847,778 - Multimedia Visual Progress Indication System
[available in Quicktime and RealPlayer for over a decade]
6,850,691 - Automatic playback overshoot correction system
[this is unclear to me, is this to handle synching? there's been such corrections for year otherwise what the heck are they talking about?]
6,792,195 - Method and Apparatus Implementing Random Access and Time-Based Functions on a Continuous Stream of Formatted Digital Data (continuation of 6,327,418)
[Wasn't this done for digital data access years before hand. Does the fact that the digital data contains "media" invalidate such random access methods?
6,757,906 - Television Viewer Interface System
[I believe they created their own interface]
5,241,428 - Variable-Delay Video Recorder
[ Don't see this being much bigger than the video/audio delays used in broadcast TV & radio ]
3615486 - Multimedia Time Warping System
[ Oh this is !@#$ing great. Now when some guy invents a time machine that lets you travel back in time as an observer he's going to get sued for violating this royally !@#$% vague patent.
ZL 00805987.X - Data Storage Management and Scheduling System
[ It's called a "timed backup" and has been done for decades ]
TiVo, Inc. is proud to announce victory over EchoStar and their theiving engineers. This patent over our highly-innovative software sets an excellent example of freedom of innovation that our country holds so dear. TiVo's position as the pioneer in digital video technology has been upheld, allowing us to leverage our unique innovations such as 'time-warp' technology and 'suggestions'.
TiVo, Inc. is willing to work with EchoStar Technologies to come to an agreement in which their infringing devices can continue to be legally used. Such a licence agreement will be fair to customers and fair to TiVo.
Until such a deal is agreed upon, all EchoStar users are asked to cease and desist use of their digital recorders. Comcast and MythTV users are also asked to discontinue their use of our 'time-warp' technology.
Consider this your final warning. Thank you for using a TiVo!
As a TiVo share holder I'm more than happy to see my shares nearly double in the past couple weeks, given this verdict.
I think it goes to point out that TiVo really was shafted by a number of companies who thought they could take a look at what TiVo had done and just do it themselves. Well, good for TiVo.
"Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
How about MythTV and any other open source project of similiar functionality. Will this be next on their lawsuit list?
-Eric
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
The redneck jury gave validation to Tivo to create a monopoly on DVR. The fact is Tivo didn't invent the DVR they improved it (arguably). While I have used their DVR and I find it user friendly (often drives me nuts it's so dumbed down) and it does have some *geek* friendly features which set it apart from most DVRs... it's sad to see other companies not be able to produce their own DVR without Tivo forcing their hands into it.
Tivo is trying to be the Microsoft of DVRs and apparently the Rednecks in Texas agree. Echostar and other companies have not ripped off Tivo, if you've used a Tivo and used any other DVR you can tell the difference. Tivo's business model has been wrong and that is the reason why they have not been able to turn a profit.
Who would enjoy paying $12 / month plus the hardware fee (now they give free boxes away with a higher monthly fee) just for the privilege to receive guide data and record / re-encode your analog tv, cable, satellite? They are an addon which doesn't make much sense.
I hope Tivo doesn't sue every home-brew / MythTV DVR user. My bet is Sony is next to be sued, they have a DVR which uses OTA guide data, all you have to do is buy the hardware.
6,850,691 - Automatic playback overshoot correction system
[this is unclear to me, is this to handle synching? there's been such corrections for year otherwise what the heck are they talking about?]
I haven't looked at the patent, but this sounds like TiVo's system of stepping backwards a little bit after the user hits "play" while fast forwarding. It's a brilliant feature, since often you don't hit play until after the point at which you wanted to play begins. It works very well, but was made somewhat moot once I enabled 30 second skip. Now, if only I could get it to automatically filter all commercials (and be able to download and play TiVo files on my Linux box).
"Save the whales, feed the hungry, free the mallocs" -- author unknown
Tivo:
NTP:
This folks is why Tivo is getting a fairly good response from /. on this news whereas NTP got lambasted. Alas, NTP got more that 1/2 a Billion dollars for trolling, even while losing their patents, while Tivo gets a lousy 75 million. The problem is not so much with our patent system (yes there are problems there...) but with the lawyers who pervert the system with NTP-like trolling companies and idiot Judges (lawyers with authority) who don't mete out justice. Laws are put on the books to level out the playing field for the sake of justice. Lawyers tend to pervert the laws and the system for financial or political gain.
Lawyers shouldn't make laws (ie: go to congress), and lawyers shouldn't interperet laws (ie: judicial branch). It is a clear conflict of interests. The clear (written and spoken) intention of the founding fathers of the USA was to have a citizen government ("a government of the people, by the people, and for the people"). They wrote volumes on this. We have been duped by the lawyers and we need to put a decisive stop to this madness in every form! There are many good hearted lawyers, but the very system that trains them teaches them that the current system is right with an egalitarian manner that the students usually miss until they are already indocterinated. This is ery similar to the way that slave-owners' children were taught that "slavery was merciful" or that "slaves were sub-human", by giving examples of "obvious" inteligence differences that were forced on the slaves by the slavery itself!
ok, i'm off my soapbox again....
NEXT....
Yeah, I've long felt TiVos are rather over-priced. Now I know it for sure.
But now did this happen? From the fly on the wall.
TiVo 1: What does a VCR do?
Tivo 2: Record at preset times, fast forward, rewind, visually skip through unwanted material.
Tivo Lawyer: You can patent that simply by changing VCR to DVR.
Patent Office: Wow! Another new, unobvious innovation in the television market!
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Oops, looks like Slashcode can't handle archive.org links. Here's one to tinyurl.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Again, your entire arguement is invalid, because if it *were* obvious, Echostar would have done it from the start.
And yeah, your arguement with 2 VCRs is just as stupid. Coulda, woulda, shoulda.
Go patent Mayostard or Mustardayonnaise or something.
The Cable / Sat monopoly forcing users to take their watered down and buggy DVR's is the real problem here. Just like Microsoft uses its monopoly power to force Media Player or IE on users.
Hmm... nobody was doing one-click ordering before Amazon, either.
I am having problems finding details on the case. Did Echostar rip off TiVo IP in their DVRs or is TiVo claiming to have a patent on the idea of digitally recording a satellite TV broadcast for later viewing?
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Assuming the Tivo patents are upheld, what is the next logical step? A movie studio, or a tv company, or a consortium of the same purchase Tivo and use the patents to shut down all of the DVR's. Tivo's are no longer made as they do not make money, cable DVR's are stopped due to patent infringement, etc. That is the SCARY scenario. DVR"s - we hardly knew you!
Thank you! No one is focused on what the patent actually says. They just think TiVo is cool and deserves to win whatever the lawsuit is. A friend of mine "invented" a hard-drive vcr in the late 80's. TiVo also thought it up. It is not worthy of a patent.