Also - anyone thinking the 40 'conspiring' devices makes it impractical to break HDCP/HDMI - think again. It just means 40 (or less) like minded hackers have to get together - not particularly hard to imagine these days.
-- There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
actually it means you need one hacker and his less than civic minded buddy with a pickup truck and a crowbar to steal a shipment of HDDVD players from Joe's Electonics Shack
Re:Where did you get 40?
by
Murphy+Murph
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· Score: 1
NVFM
-- I dub thee... Sir Phobos, Knight of Mars, Beater of Ass.
Re:Where did you get 40?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 2, Informative
From TFA:
In the real system, where the secret vectors have forty entries, not four, it takes a conspiracy of about forty devices, with known private vectors, to break HDCP completely. But that is eminently doable, and it's only a matter of time before someone does it. I'll talk next time about the implications of that fact.
A little tougher than that...
by
weetjerm
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· Score: 5, Interesting
His attack methodology is correct, but it will take more than 40 devices to break the system. The chances are very low that all 40 devices being linearly independent, and therefore each one offering non-duplicate information about the system. If you read the comments, he actually inadvertantly ran into this problem with his small example of 4 keys.
However, in writing this, I realize that I do not know how many keys you would need to present a good probability of solving the system of equations. Anyone want to run a simulation?
Re:A little tougher than that...
by
bperkins
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· Score: 1
You're right, I get 80 devices to get a 50/50 chance.
OTOH, since the addition rules are public, you can target your cracking to devices that have the types of keys you want.
Re:A little tougher than that...
by
Maljin+Jolt
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· Score: 4, Informative
Anyone want to run a simulation?
No funny simulation is needed, a math paper refered by TFA contains the info you want: 50 KSV's have probability 0.999, by the properties of linear algebra over Z/2exp56Z.
-- There you are, staring at me again.
Re:A little tougher than that...
by
trentblase
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· Score: 1
His point was that he doesn't expect them all to be linearly independent.
The problem with any security system is ...
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
security vs. ease of use. You can make something so secure that it is almost impossible to break. The trouble is that it becomes so cumbersome that no one wants to use it.
The example that comes quickly to mind is copy protection on software. At some point it drives away paying customers and doesn't deter the pirates.
Personally, I think I will continue to use the analog hole because there isn't that much stuff that really needs high definition to be enjoyed.
Cool, but nor practical
by
pla
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· Score: 1, Insightful
if any 40 devices conspire together, they can break the security of the system
From TFA:
it takes a conspiracy of about forty devices, with known private
vectors, to break HDCP completely. But that is eminently doable, and it's only a matter
of time before someone does it.
Apparently Mr. Felten has a somewhat twisted idea of "eminently doable".
The HDCP CA will certainly only give out keys to people who sign very very
scary agreements not to engage in exactly the sort of activities described. While
a few of them might "accidentally" leak their keys, I find it exceedingly
unlikely that 40 such companies will pay for a key vector, just to take the
risk of getting sued out of existence.
Though I have to wonder about the actual security of these keys under the condition
of physical access. That point might make Felten's proposed crack viable,
if we just need to find a weaknedd in 40 devices out of the thousands that will
eventually hit the market - ESPECIALLY if player software needs to have a valid
key as well.
I also wonder why we need to "know" even one, much less 40, secret keys beforehand,
however... It doesn't sound like you need to come up with the correct answer to get
a single response. If you faked 40 devices, couldn't you still get the target device
to respond at least once to each, thereby getting the necessary 40 unknowns? Sure,
this would reduce to 40 instances of cracking a 56(?) bit key, but a modern PC can
brute-force that in under a day.
Most things are doable, though not necessarily in a lifetime. I am sure you could insert a sniffer device to monitor the data going through the cable. Also, apparently this technology will only prevent you access from the HD content. Maybe like aeroglass, the low quality content will be enough for many people.
-- Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Re:Cool, but nor practical
by
jamesshuang
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· Score: 1
The cipher is probably based on matricies (maybe even some sort of advanced hill cipher?). With 40 known matricies, it's merely a matter of multiplying them with the cipher text (or however it's encoded), and the main key pops out. That's why exactly 40 are needed - it's mathematics.
Re:Cool, but nor practical
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
You misunderstood the method of attack. The secret vector, which is stored in the device, is not used directly in this crack, but is calculated. The secret vector turns out to be a solution to a set of linear equations as snooped from HDMI handshakes. To get a single secret vector, 40+ HDMI device handshakes need to be snooped, with atleast 40 of those having unique non-linear-combination secret keys. This is why 40 devices are needed, though they don't need to be in a chain to crack the encryption as suggested in the story.
Re:Cool, but nor practical
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 2, Insightful
I find it exceedingly unlikely that 40 such companies will pay for a key vector, just to take the risk of getting sued out of existence.
According to the article, keys are being sold in quantities of 10000, which makes it sound like each physical device has its own unique key. If this is the case, then one not-quite-tamper-proof production run of some player will yield more than enough keys for the attack to be practical.
Re:Cool, but nor practical
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1, Informative
You don't need a license to obtain the secret keys. You can create your own thus making the approach extremely doable. Please read the article to see how this is done.
Re:Cool, but nor practical
by
Firehed
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· Score: 1
Maybe like aeroglass, the low quality content will be enough for many people.
But Aero Glass is the fully pretty one - you must mean plain Aero. Anyways, the whole purpose of buying HD media is for the HD. If it's then downscaled right back to just-slight-above DVD quality, I think people are going to be, pardon my French, pretty fucking pissed. Especially the early adopters who have the highest chance of getting screwed over.
-- How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
Re:Cool, but nor practical
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johndoe42
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· Score: 1
First, the HDCP CA gives a lot of keys to each company, I think. So you'd only need one crooked company.
About your other idea: From the paper referenced in the article, it looks like the device sends a hash of the sum over the wire. So you'd have to invert a hash on each try (which may still be doable -- the input space isn't all that huge). But the attacker can cleverly choose a basis for the KSV space, thereby recovering the target's private key in exactly 40 tries. This attack would probably take a week or two on computation, so it wouldn't be all that great on its own. But... an attacker could run this attack 40-50 times and use the results to run the attack in the article, breaking the entire system. No broken devices required. Eenteresting.
Re:Cool, but nor practical
by
quentin_quayle
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· Score: 5, Informative
Did the moderators Read The Fine Article before giving the parent points?
Felten in talking about "a conspiracy of about forty devices" is not saying that (defectors at) forty device makers have to reveal secret keys. What he's saying is that you just need to the 40 devices themselves, or rather (as post above pointed out) enough to get 40 different key sets (and some math and programming ability). Then the crack is done by analysing the bit streams between the devices (between player and display, or whatevre).
The expense is the cost of all those tvs and players. Bribing the device makers is a *different* kind of attack which Felten rules out as impractical.
Re:Cool, but nor practical
by
pkhuong
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· Score: 1
Well, the hash is lossy (56 -> 16 bits, iirc), so you'd probably need ~4 attempts of the same challenge with 4 different seeds to recover the sum. Still very much in the realm of the doable.
Did the moderators Read The Fine Article before giving the parent points?
Did you? Or did we somehow read entirely different articles?
Felten in talking about "a conspiracy of about forty devices" is not
saying that (defectors at) forty device makers have to reveal secret keys.
The linked article specifically says exactly that! The described
attack requires knowing the key vector of each of the 40 devices used in the
attack:
There are two things to notice about this process. First, in order
to do it, you need to know either Alice's or Bob's secret vector.
[...]
In the real system, where the secret vectors have forty entries, not four, it takes
a conspiracy of about forty devices, with known private vectors, to break HDCP
completely.
Then the crack is done by analysing the bit streams between the devices (between
player and display, or whatevre).
Really, now? Perhaps you could quote where he says that? Because, I can't help but notice
that it says NOTHING about analyzing the conversation itself. In my last
paragraph, I hypothesized that a brute-force attack on the actual conversation
might suffice, but Felton said nothing at all about that. In fact, to apply
the method he describes, you don't even need to ever build the devices - You just
need to know their keys and the victim-device's addition rules.
From that, you can solve a 40-variable linear equasion to produce arbitrary
valid keys, which comes as close to a full crack as matters for any practical
application.
Now, I did not know, as one or two others pointed out, that anyone can
obtain huge numbers of keys without significant expense or contractual restrictions.
That would seem to make Felten's attack trivial, and if true, I look forward to buying
a black-market HDCP-stripping dongle in the very near future. I admit my lack of
information on that point. But the points you take issue with don't even
seem to come from the current topic!
Re:Cool, but nor practical
by
johndoe42
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· Score: 1
I think you mean 2^(56-16) = a lot of attempts. Unless there's corresponding weakness in the hash.
(I didn't realize it was a hash that short. But 16 bits sounds absurd -- the hash gives the shared secret and 16 bits is way too short.)
Re:Cool, but nor practical
by
imaginieus
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· Score: 1
All it would take to crack HDCP is a single person at one of these companies to obtain 40 keys and then run the crack himself. He would then be able to produce 50 new, untraceable keys that could be released publicly.
Re:Cool, but nor practical
by
pkhuong
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· Score: 1
Mm. no. If the hash really is good, it'll yield ~16 new bits of information re the sum / hash. Hence the 4 different challenges, each allowing you to recover ~ 16 of the 56 bits.
--
Try Corewar @ www.koth.org - rec.games.corewar
Re:Cool, but nor practical
by
Lehk228
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· Score: 1
more importantly this is an ultimate
mv/bag/cat/somewhereElse/
situation. once you have the 40 keys you can extract the keys from as many good players as you wish, futher using those keys to extract more keys. and any 40 of the set of all extracted keys will work just fine.
i am not an electrical engineer, but this seems to be the kind of thing once broken once that could be built into a single IC or for better features loaded onto a HDMI dongle with a USB port where you can upload any Keys.txt file if they do start trying to stomp out all compromised keys.
-- Snowden and Manning are heroes.
Re:Cool, but nor practical
by
ultranova
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· Score: 3, Funny
Anyways, the whole purpose of buying HD media is for the HD. If it's then downscaled right back to just-slight-above DVD quality, I think people are going to be, pardon my French, pretty fucking pissed. Especially the early adopters who have the highest chance of getting screwed over.
Well, kicking down the front door of the central HDCP bureau and storming it with torches and pitchworks to get the master key is just another kind of brute force attack, no ?-)
--
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Re:Cool, but nor practical
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
I also wonder why we need to "know" even one, much less 40, secret keys beforehand, however... It doesn't sound like you need to come up with the correct answer to get a single response. If you faked 40 devices, couldn't you still get the target device to respond at least once to each
Depends. The problem is in the nature of the target device's response.
In an example of two devices (Alice and Bob, where Alice is a legitimate device and Bob is trying to discover Alice's secret vector), Bob gives Alice an adding rule. Now, people seem to be assuming that Alice responds by telling Bob the answer she gets (or a hash thereof); she doesn't, because she knows that either (a) Bob is legit and already knows the answer (it's the same as teh answer he'll get when applying the summing rule she gave him); or (b) Bob is not legit and shouldn't be given information.
Instead, Alice is just going to start using her answer as a session key for an encrypted conversation with Bob. If Bob is legit, then he knows the key and can communicate; otherwise he can't.
So all Bob is going to extract is some cyphertext. This is sufficient if he knows the corresponding cleartext -- because from that he can derive the key, which in turn gives him some information about Alice's vector. He can then attack again with a different summing rule and get more information about the vector, until the crack is complete.
The defense against this is simple enough, though; the first encrypted message Alice sends should be based on cleartext that Bob cannot know. For example, Alice might generate a random value and enter a challenge-response of some sort with Bob.
Why Reveal this Now?
by
PingXao
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· Score: 2, Interesting
As a poster said at TFA, why did they reveal this attack so soon? It would have been much better to wait another few months until HDCP displays and video cards were shipping in larger numbers. That being said, who's comes up with these lame cryptosystems anyway? First CSS, which was a joke, now this, and you know the Advanced CSS will have holes in it big enough to drive a truck through. The bad news is that some day they will start hiring people who know what they're doing with cryptosystems and then we're all screwed.
Re:Why Reveal this Now?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Re:Why Reveal this Now?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
I dont think it is a case that they do not know what they are doing. The problem is virtually impossible to solve with todays technology (which is why there is a push for Trusted Computing).
Unless you can point to another solution which stops someone copying media that they have physical access to.
Even if the copy protection is really really strong, it is only a matter of a few years before those systems can be brut forced.
Re:Why Reveal this Now?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Read the replies to that post as well. It's been "revealed" for several years now, yet the industry went ahead and implemented this.
Re:Why Reveal this Now?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 5, Interesting
The bad news is that some day they will start hiring people who know what they're doing with cryptosystems and then we're all screwed.
Rather unlikely. The whole concept of DRM is bankrupt as a cryptographic concept because you are handing over the ciphertext, the plaintext and last but not least the key over to your adversary (usually called "consumer" or "hacker"). Sure you can try to make it hard for him to actually get them but you already handed them over and it just remains a question of time until they are recovered. Meanwhile, a single break is a class break for at least all the content released up to the point of the break (even with "revokable" keys). Also, once a broke the system once, the content is freed forever and can be distributed at leisure (darknet hypothesis), which means even some small quality loss may be acceptable to the attacker since that loss would only occure once.
In short, DRM is a DReaM indeed.
Re:Why Reveal this Now?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
It was revealed to Intel by a Dutch researcher, but Intel dismissed it as only theoretical. He didn't go public because he didn't want to have to worry about being arrested under the DMCA when visiting the US.
Re:Why Reveal this Now?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1, Insightful
As others have pointed out, the attack is not new. What HDCP does is *not* protect content (at least, not seriously)... it forces the makers of consumer electronics to sign legal agreements with Intel, and more critically with the MPAA... and these legal agreements dictate what features the manufacturers can add. If you want to sell players legally, you have to make them they way you are told... not the way the consumer wants.
It's about control, not copy protection (can't fast forward through adverts etc etc)... and getting your sticky royalty grabbing fingers into the equipment pie.
It doesn't matter how strong the crypto is; the real purpose is to allow the content industry to sue the heck out of anyone (In the US) who tries to excersize fair use. The DMCA doesn't care whether the crypto is strong or weak...
-- How to enable garbage collection on a system without protected memory:
#define malloc() ((void *) rand())
because you are handing over the ciphertext, the plaintext and last but not least the key over to your adversary
Does it really have to be this way? What if a central body developed a chip whose interface is known but whose internals are highly secret. Anyone making playback equipment just has to be able to accept one of these chips.
The function of the chip is to take an encrypted content stream and give out an unencrypted content stream.
Hmmm... even as I write this I can see that it's absolutely full of holes... I've just given you a single component that you can simply plug into your own decryption device:)
It's just like 'perfect' copy protection on CD's. Impossible to achieve by definition.
I guess the only way around this is: 1. actually make content that people will pay for 2. don't charge them too much for it (eg no more than what you'd pay to rent it anyway) 3. make it easy for them to pay for it (this is important!) 4. once they've paid for it, don't restrict how they use it (eg you can only watch this on xyz device) 4a. use an 'open' codec, and if none exists, make one and make it open. 4b. make sure it is dead easy for people to self audit 5. let people distribute the actual content to each other (if #2 and #3 are true, you still get revenue and you don't have to futz around with content distribution systems. Let everyone else pay for the bandwidth) 6. Impose heavy (but not directly financial) penalties on people who infringe in bulk (you've paid thousands of $$$ on a home entertainment system but won't pay $3 for a movie??? you get what you fscking deserve. We'll take that $$$ home entertainment system thanks:)
Re:Why Reveal this Now?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
The point has been already been made by Bruce Schneier somewhere in 2001.
In the case of your "black box" decryption chip, all you're doing is burying the "secret" that you hope the consumer can't access into a chip. If someone figures out how to extract the key off of your secret-decoder chip, though, your security is shot. It's not really a "secure" system in the mathematical, theoretical sense that cryptographers like to talk about; really all you're doing is hoping that that your adversaries, combined, don't have the resources to open your system up and figure out how it works.
Of course, not all consumers are going to be stupid, and not all of them are going to be without resources. Some tinkerers have access to some pretty impressive equipment: whether they're technically allowed to use it or not. I could imagine that if some system were implemented that depended on a secret, sealed chip that nobody knew what was inside, it could easily become a big race to figure it out. People who had access to everything from surplus medical X-ray machines to MRI scanners would be taking a peek inside; it's simply not realistic to think that you can design a black box that takes in scrambled content and outputs de-scrambled content and that nobody is ever going to figure out how it works.
There are going to be a whole lot of very smart people trying to break such a system, not only for economic reasons (organized crime, and piracy) but mostly just for the intellectual challenge of being the next "DVD Jon."
You can certainly make a system very hard for an outsider to understand: you could have the decoding all be done on a single, totally undocumented, custom IC, and put that on a circuit board with a bunch of other dummy ICs and then put the whole thing in a box and fill it with alternating layers of epoxy and lead and white phosphorous (or some similar material that ignites on contact with air) to discourage tampering or photographic investigation, but all you're going to do is raise the stakes for figuring out how the thing works. On some very limited-production prototype, or military device, this might be worthwhile. But on a consumer appliance which has to be manufactured cheaply in order to be successful, it's probably not very practical.
All you're doing in all this, fundamentally, is making the secret to the system more and more obscure. It's not real security: it's not the same as the security of Diffie-Hellman key exchange, that's based on commonly understood mathematics. It's just a secret, and once that secret gets out, your system is just a whole lot of wasted money.
-- "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
If the decoder module was renewed frequently (yearly, monthly, whatever) then the race becomes a bit harder. There are two challenges then: 1. Brute force the private key. It would need to be done fairly quickly though (not much use really if it takes 5 months to get it when the module is renewed semesterly). Key strength could easily be increased to keep the discovery time sufficiently long, as the decryption is completely contained within the device. 2. Find a way to trick the module to give up the private key by: 2a. Exploiting a flaw in the device. Easy to fix at the next issue. 2b. Physical analysis (xray, whatever) to extract the key (assuming the previous issue device is the same design as the current one and the steps to discover the key last time can be followed much faster). A bit of obfuscated variation at each device issue would take care of that.
If the decoder module was renewed frequently (yearly, monthly, whatever) then the race becomes a bit harder.
If you need to buy a new decoder module monthly to watch legally purchased (sorry, licensed) content, then guess if anyone will buy that content legally or download cracked content from BitTorrent ?
--
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
"This sounds pretty cool. But it has a very large problem: if any four devices conspire, they can break the security of the system.
To see how, let's do an example. Suppose that Alice, Bob, Charlie, and Diane conspire, and that the conspiracy wants to figure out the secret vector of some innocent victim, Ed. Ed's addition rule is "[1]+[4]", and his secret vector is, of course, a secret."
Re:It's 4 not 40
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
RTFA, fucktard. "In the real system, where the secret vectors have forty entries, not four, it takes a conspiracy of about forty devices, with known private vectors, to break HDCP completely."
Re:It's 4 not 40
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
His example had vectors with four entries, real devices have vectors with forty entries.
"An example will help to make this clear. In the example, we'll save space by pretending that the vectors have four secret numbers rather than forty, but the idea will be the same."
No, it's 40, not 4
by
Space+cowboy
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· Score: 4, Informative
In real life the devices have a vector of 40 secret numbers, he's using a vector of 4 to illustrate withour bogging down the reader.
The key is that with N variables (the number of different numbers in the vector), you need N equations to solve the set of equations for all of those variables - it's simple linear algebra.
When you purchase a licence, you get a bunch of 10000 keys for $16000, so S.O.Mebody could use this within an organisation to analyse the generation matrix, and actually produce 40 new keys and release them to the wild. No comeback.
In another post, Weetjerm wrote "His attack methodology is correct, but it will take more than 40 devices to break the system. The chances are very low that all 40 devices being linearly independent, and therefore each one offering non-duplicate information about the system. If you read the comments, he actually inadvertantly ran into this problem with his small example of 4 keys."
So, what they could do is sell you 10.000 linearly dependent keys.
Bert A patent lawyer who detests software patents and DRM that punishes honest people only
Re:No, it's 40, not 4
by
phoenix.bam!
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· Score: 1
If they are linearly dependent keys you can still crack the subspace those keys span and access any media coming from those 10,000 devices.
i think that would be even worse for the manufacturers than a generic break, and so they are likely to refuse to go along with that. if a break hits everyone they will be ok, as that is how things usually work, if a break means a possible injunction while competitors keep making and selling devices the broken company is screwed.
i hop it's SONY thant gets broken if they do use that method
-- Snowden and Manning are heroes.
Re:this seems unwise
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
If the terrorists want to crack HDCP, I'm all for it as long as they release it to the general public... which they probably wouldnt being terrorists and all. They would reprogram their pre-hdcp complient HDTV's to get full high def channels. those bastards.
Half a building connected to the same set-top-box
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
It wasnt rare to find a building with half of the neighbors connected to the same set-top-box when PPV arrived.;))
Well lets say a company had 40 keys... but they all have the same addition formula. What now? Everything would come out the same.
In a related question...
by
dpilot
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· Score: 2, Interesting
I was checking the Sunday advertising fliers this morning, and see that many of the new TVs are advertising HDMI as well as PC connections. Can someone please explain my limitations?
1: Can I hook up my current VGA or DVI to one of these, and display the content I can currently display?
2: Is the only limitation/constraint the new HD/BlueRay DVDs with "double-plus-good super-duper copy-protection, put there to protect me AND the children"?
3: Related to both, assume I have MythTV running with an HD capture card. (I don't yet, but plan to, before they become illegal. What's the latest status?) Can I run my captured content out through one of these new displays?
-- The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Re:In a related question...
by
The+Jonas
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· Score: 1
1: Can I hook up my current VGA or DVI to one of these, and display the content I can currently display?
I can only help answer your first question. I bought a 32" LCD with multiple inputs including HDMI for for my PC's. I have yet to find a graphics card that is HDMI compliant. Therefore, at this time I can not use the 1920 x 1080i @ 60Hz that the display can handle. I am using the RGB-PC inputs. There may be a card, but I have not found it yet.
Re:In a related question...
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
1: Can I hook up my current VGA or DVI to one of these, and display the content I can currently display?
Check the specs on the display to see if it has a VGA, Composite or Component connectors. HDCP doesn't come into play here.
HDCP is used to protect the higher resolution digital video. If you connect a monitor or recorder with DVI/HDMI that doesn't support HDCP, the video source is supposed to just give you a lower relsolution version over your DVI interface. So you may get SD instead of the HD the source is capable of.
2: Is the only limitation/constraint the new HD/BlueRay DVDs with [HDCP]
HDCP could also be (is?) used by your cable or satellite receiver. But again, HDCP would only apply to the Higher Def. DVI/HDMI output of any of those devices, and they should have a lower def. stream available to DVI/HDMI devices w/o HDCP. They may or may not have lower def. analog outputs that are unprotected.
3: Related to both, assume I have MythTV running with an HD capture card.
The problem would be that the HD capture card would be unlikely to run HDCP, so you'd only capture a lower def. video stream. I think any HD capture card manufacturer that released a card that did HDCP on an "untrusted" (read no DRM) OS, would find their card revoked rather quickly.
Re:In a related question...
by
nsayer
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· Score: 4, Informative
1. There are HDMI to DVI cables. The only question mark is the type of DVI your card uses. There are 3 types, depending on which sets of signals the jack has: DVI-A, DVI-D and DVI-I. HDMI is all digital, but its backwards compatible with DVI-D (DVI-I is a combination of both A and D - analog and digital). So unless your card is DVI-A, you should be able to use a DVI-to-HDMI cable to hook up your display. You will need to make separate arrangements for audio, however, since DVI (unlike HDMI) has no provisions for it.
This does presume that the card is able to put out a mode/timing that's compatible with the set, of course.
2. What you're probably talking about is the requirement that non HDCP-hardened outputs from HD players are supposed to be down-resed to 480p (or whatever). I don't know for certain, but I'm willing to bet that this is not an absolute requirement, but that there's a bit that the disk can set to require this behavior. Not all studios or titles will make the decision to flip that bit on on their content, and I'd certainly expect them not to bother until/unless the technology to take DVI-B and rip it to MPEG4 becomes widespread. Unlike macrovision on analog outputs, which largely went unnoticed with DVDs, this bit does threaten to have a real impact on folks, so I would expect a site to pop up relatively shortly with a list of disks "not to buy" unless you have HDCP. The industry might even respond with a standardized icon on the box whose meaning is "HDCP required for full resolution."
The other obvious restriction is that the HD media is itself encrypted, so when HD-DVD-ROM drives come out, you won't be able to read the data off of them (except in the context of an HD-DVD movie player app), at least not until it's reverse engineered and cracked like DVDs were.
3. I may be wrong, but I am unaware of any HD video capture cards. There are HD tuner cards/boxes out there that will do HDTV, but they're decoding the RF from a TV station and getting MPEG2 streams. That's not the same thing as ripping 1080i from a DVI connector and turning THAT into MPEG2. Even if that were possible, the original source (HDTV, HD-DVD, DVD, whatever) was probably compressed in the first place, so you'll be recompressing it, which will degrade the picture some (more).
Re:In a related question...
by
makomk
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· Score: 1
I can only help answer your first question. I bought a 32" LCD with multiple inputs including HDMI for for my PC's. I have yet to find a graphics card that is HDMI compliant. Therefore, at this time I can not use the 1920 x 1080i @ 60Hz that the display can handle. I am using the RGB-PC inputs. There may be a card, but I have not found it yet.
Try a graphics card with a DVI out - you should generally be able to connect a DVI out to a HDMI in. However, you can only connect a HDMI output to a DVI input if the video isn't copy-protected or the device you're using supports HDCP on its DVI input...
Re:In a related question...
by
frzndrag
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· Score: 3, Interesting
HDMI compliance is not required, you just need a DVI to HDMI is just a rework of the DVI cable to allow for easier consumer connections and include audio. from http://www.ramelectronics.net/ "HDMI - Digital connection for Video and 8-channels of Digital Audio as well as device control features. Electronically better potential for supporting longer cable lengths than DVI for digital video. Specification supports up to 12 bit Y-Pr-Pb video (rarely implemented on equipment) as opposed to 8 bit limit of DVI RGB." I've used them before for other AV media conversion products and they make pretty good stuff.
also see the HDMI FAQ at http://www.hdmi.org/about/faq.asp which states "Is HDMI backward-compatible with DVI (Digital Visual Interface)? Yes, HDMI is fully backward-compatible with DVI using the CEA-861 profile for DTVs. HDMI DTVs will display video received from existing DVI-equipped products, and DVI-equipped TVs will display video from HDMI sources."
Re:In a related question...
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Wesley+Felter
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· Score: 1
A recent Ask Slashdot thread revealed several DVI capture cards on the market, but they're in the $3,000 range; and you'd need a pretty hefty computer to record uncompressed HD (and then recompress it).
Re:In a related question...
by
dpilot
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· Score: 1
1: I'll have to check my connectors and specs to see exactly what I've got. In a way it's not terribly important, since I'm more interested in directing future purchases. It's a cinch that there will never be anything other than crippled Linux drivers for a card with HDMI output. Or put another way, I doubt there will ever be Linux HDCP capability.
But that really doesn't bother me, as long as I can take MY sources, non-HDCP crippled, and display them fully. That's what this is really ALL about.
2: See previous sentence.
3: I misspoke. I'm really taking about an HD tuner card. Apparently there are now 4 decent Linux candidates, the good old PCHDTV-3000, the Air2PC, now renamed to (mumble)-5000, and 2 Fusion cards, Gold and Lite. I'm still deferring, because I have only 4 HD channels available and no other HD-capable hardware. But I want to buy before the broadcase flag legislation renders it illegal. Again, does anyone know the status?
-- The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
One thing I hate worse ...
by
Midnight+Thunder
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· Score: 2, Interesting
There is one thing I hate worse than this DRM (Draconian Rights Management) crap: region encoding. DRM only effects me if I want to make a backup or play a disk I bought with Linux. Now if I buy a disk in Europe and want to play it in Canada it is not doable, officially. Unofficially I have to get a DVD player with a backdoor, or a PC DVD player with the Firmware hacked or rip the DVD - all this for a DVD I bought legitimately!?
And then there is something that scares me: how unaware of this many people I speak to are, even some people working in IT!
-- Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Re:One thing I hate worse ...
by
twitter
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· Score: 1
DRM only effects me if I want to make a backup or play a disk I bought with Linux. Now if I buy a disk in Europe and want to play it in Canada it is not doable, officially. Unofficially I have to get a DVD player with a backdoor, or a PC DVD player with the Firmware hacked or rip the DVD - all this for a DVD I bought legitimately!?
If you were in Europe, you could also have bought a DVD player. They cost, what, $40 now?
It would probably be easier to rip the CD.
--
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Re:One thing I hate worse ...
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1, Informative
You don't need to hack the firmware on your dvd drive on a pc to enjoy region-free status. Just use mplayer or vlc or similar. They do the CSS-decoding in software and will play any region just fine, even if your drive has already become "locked" into one region.
But, yeah - region encoding is a damn stupid idea:)
Exactly. Ed's math is borked.
by
goombah99
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· Score: 2, Insightful
I had exactly the same thought. I think this attack may fail. Or rather not be as immediately successful as imagined. Ironically, the fatal flaw is contained in the same algebra mistake made in the orginal post.
In order to prevent this attack from being done easily, the central authority could deliberately hand out linearly dependent addition vectors to any company that applies. For example, suppose a company applies for 10,000 keys. The central authority gives them 10,000 keys and 10,000 addition vectors. But the addition vectors are all crammed into the first 14 or 15 bits of the 40 bit addition vector. (that is bits 16 to 40 are zero). This would assure that the addition vectors are linearly dependent and the code cannot be cracked.
In effect the 10,000 keys are hobbled to representing no more than 15 independent keys, not the requisite 40 to crack this.
Thinking even more globally, the central authority could reserve say the last 10 bits of the addition vector, so that all devices manufactured from 2008 to 2010 never used the last 10 bits. then all devices manufactured from 2010 to 2012 always used the 31st bit but none of the last 9. Then in 2013-2014, all devices always use the 32nd bit but none of the last 8. and so on.
thus they can prevent anyone from collecting all 40 so far into the future that they can assure that any crack that works this year will fail on all new devices.
Of course, the hackers only need to stay on the ball and update their hacks as they can. But it's going to take a very large consipiracy among multiple companies to collect large enough set of addition vectors to crack this.
-- Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
This is what the guy who originally said he could easily crack HDCP said. And the only reason he didn't release specifics (which could have allowed them to fix it before it went 'public') is because he'd have been in some boiling legal water thanks to the DMCA. As it is, the publisher of this story probably will be, but the system will still be cracked *very* quickly, and we'll all have AnyHDCP running in our trays so our computers are stupid-proof.
-- How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
because he'd have been in some boiling legal water thanks to the DMCA. As it is, the publisher of this story probably will be
Ed Felten has gone toe to toe with the xxAA before.
-- General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Re:This is what....
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
The full details for cracking HDCP were publicly released years ago; Felten hasn't added anything new. Even though the details have been known, no one has yet to actually crack HDCP.
The comment about "AnyHDCP" shows that you don't have any clue how HDCP works. You can't upgrade a Fast Ethernet card to Gigabit using software and you sure can't crack HDCP in software. At a minimum you need an FPGA.
not as easy as it seems, or am I misunderstanding?
by
dioscaido
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· Score: 1
I may be totally misunderstanding, but won't the 40 devices need to have their private numbers assigned from the central authority as well (and presumably have to pay $$$$$ for it)? Otherwise, when they send [1]+[2] to the device they are cracking, and get back [3]+[4], it will be meaningless unless the hacker's internal numbers' 3+4 addition equals 1+2 of the remote device.
What!? Hasn't he heard of the /. Effect?
by
kadathseeker
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· Score: 1
Oh, I see, breaking the security of the systems. Right. Didn't see that the first time. Sorry.
-- The 'Net is a waste of time, and that's exactly what's right about it. - William Gibson
Region Coding vs. Fair Use
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
IANAIPL, but....
You're arguing your fair use rights against the copyright holders rights to regionally control distribution. I don't think this is quite as cut and dried.
On the other hand, region encoding doesn't seem to make as much sense in this day of global economies. Do they still even have staggered releases of movies?
Re:Region Coding vs. Fair Use
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ClamIAm
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· Score: 2, Interesting
Sorry, but in the age of global trade, nobody has a "right" to the type of region-controlling the media cartels do. In fact, this type of collusion is most likely illegal under lots of treaties and jurisdictions.
Re:Region Coding vs. Fair Use
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KDR_11k
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· Score: 1
Region control is not covered by copyright (since copyright only covers the creation of copies and public performance) and indeed it usually violates anti-monopoly laws. Many countries have found region coding to be illegal.
-- Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:Exactly. Ed's math is borked.
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Mattcelt
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· Score: 1
Ok, so help me out here. Doesn't that reduce the effective keyspace by an order of 2^16? Seems to me that would make a brute-force attack much more practical. (It doesn't matter if you set the first 16, last 16, or any arbitrary (but consistent) combination of bits to zero, it will still reduce the keyspace for all devices by the same amount.)
Of course, I don't know much about the algorithm itself, but from the blog's example, it should be simple to test the validity of any arbitrary key with any device.
Increasing the keyspace as you have suggested would actually make the codes more secure as time went on - but given that there are always going to be those initial devices with 24 instead of 40 bits, those will always be the most attractive target. And it only takes one key, one time, to build a device which can output an unencrypted stream, breaking the whole system catastrophically.
Have I got that right?
How does this stop pirates?
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Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
[Note: I define pirate as someone who infringes copyright on a large scale for profit. That doesn't mean others aren't infringing.]
All this anti-piracy encryption is still missing the point. Long before CSS was cracked, pirates were bit copying DVDs.
AFAIKT, the new disc formats don't have any magic that prevents a pirate from making physcial (i.e. analog) copies of a purchased source disc. Players have to be able to read the bits off the disc. A recorder can write the same bits back on a disc. No decryption necessary for a perfect copy.
Maybe they'll bring back the "bad sector" copy protection schemes. Remember when you couldn't play a game w/o its install floppy that had deliberate bad sectors on it? And you couldn't copy it as the PC would helpfully correct the bad sectors. Yes, I've keyed in boot vectors in binary from the front panel, why do you ask?
Re:Exactly. Ed's math is borked.
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goombah99
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· Score: 1
You have it partly right and partly wrong. First, HDCP does not require super security. It's not how the media is encoded it's just the transport from the player to the viewer that is being encoded. There's a whole nother more secure code for the media encryption. I think what they want to avoid is some gizmho you could put inline that would decode it. SO if they can create a situtation where there is no universal gizmho for every player/viewer combination or one that breaks every year when a new device is released it accomplishes a lot of their purposes.
One supposes that the point of attack has to be outside the media player (dvd) since otherwise there is no need to attack the transport layer and you already have everything you need to decode the video if you are in controll of the inner workings of the player.
So in trying to attack the transport layer there's no reduction of the complexity of the key by restricting the addition vector to a subset of the possible bits. In general it's always going to be about half the bits (half on half off).
By restricting the addition key space its sort of like restricting the space of challenge codes to a challenge response algorithm. The main effect of this is to prevent a challenge code from being seen previously and thus the response learned.
Of course it does, as you surmise, reduce the brute force number of challenge codes one might try to learn every possible attack for that series of player. But I suspect the set is still so large it matters not. And moreover, as I said, that still wont let you build a universal decoded gizmho, just one that works for that particular player for that model year.
Of course for some folks that's all the want. e.g. if it becomes known that there is a gizmho that can be attached to a 2007 sony model XXXXX that can then be spoofed with a certain addition vector then all the hackers will go out and buy that 2007 model which will then work indefintely. But one guesses that maybe the media will then come with something that recognizes that model number and refuses to play in high def. Not sure if they could get away with that as it would piss off some consumers.
-- Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
One attack in many
by
bhima
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· Score: 4, Interesting
Wow so many folks sort of missed the point here...
Felton's description of the weaknesses of DHCP handshakes is of only one potential attack. Combined with other attacks and it's entirely possible that a group effort could crank out new secret vectors faster than the M.A.F.I.A.A. could revoke known compromised ones.
For example: If more was known (than I know) about the encryption algorithm used (AKA "the hdcpRngCipher") work could be started on creating dense & smart Time-Memory Trade-Off tables. This is a non-trivial task involving tens of thousands of CPU hours... a perfect thing for a validating distributed computing application (oh. this. has. so. been. done. before).
Also a HDMI repeater or splitter isn't very far from being a sniffer... I think all it lacks is a little I2C to USB help. This, the tables above, & a HDCP device will net you all the vectors you need to employ Felton's attack. Once one set has been compromised and the methodology worked out it's just a matter of turning the crank to get more and potentially very, very quickly.
The utility of these attacks goes well beyond being able to view 1080p on a non DHCP device... one could render revocation useless be attacking high-end components sold by M.A.F.I.A.A. members (i.e. Sony). This eventually must lead hardware devices running out of un-revoked vectors and becoming inoperable... an untenable situation for the M.A.F.I.A.A.
Now, if such a concerted attack is organized on the hi-def media... I feel that we will be right where we are now... a reasonably astute person can watch any DVD wherever they want and they can retain a backup of that media in a format of their choosing.
-- Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
In fact once you've cracked it you can build a device that generates keys on the fly when it's powered up... it doesn't matter how many are revoked - such a device is a permanent HDCP crack.
I'll give it 6 months, then buy one from one of the many manufacturers in china.
Ok, fine, but where do you get the info?
by
Opportunist
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· Score: 1
First of all, let me admit that I'm not big into electronics. Best I can do is hook a cable onto my computer and pray that it gets the signal across. So please educate me.
How is he going to find out what the device "wants to hear"? Is he going to sniff into the communication between two "legit" devices? Or is he going to try to "talk" with one of them and brute force through try and error (because it's unlikely the device will send him the "right" answer to the question as well)?
How's he getting the information?
-- We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Here's what will happen
by
Omaze
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· Score: 2, Insightful
Someone will connect an oscilloscope to the wire(s) that connect(s) the devices and reverse engineer the communications signal. They will then construct a custom breadboard able to talk to any HDCP device while being able to impersonate a device with a programmable HDCP vector/rule. With a link (ethernet or serial) to any modern day PC they'll just brute force it.
It won't be difficult.
-- The government itself is not stealing your liberties. Their new programs are enabling criminals who will.
Re:Here's what will happen
by
MoonBuggy
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· Score: 1
Someone's already mentioned this scenario in the comments on the blog, it seems plausible in theory but there's also very little reason for the HDCP chips not to limit handshake attempts to (say) one per second - you're not going to get more attempts than that legitimately anyway. Since the keys are 56 bit numbers and you're adding them together you've got a fair amount of ground to cover - it's going to take a hell of a lot of time going through x1+x2=1; fail; x1+x2=2; fail;... x1+x2=379654; pass; x1+x3=1; fail; and so on. If my calculations are correct (which they are quite possibly not) you're talking anything up to centuries to brute force 40 56-bit keys at that speed.
Re:Here's what will happen
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tadmas
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· Score: 2, Insightful
Someone will connect an oscilloscope to the wire(s) that connect(s) the devices and reverse engineer the communications signal.
There is no need to do this -- the signal itself would have to be according to some kind of standard or else a brand X DVD player couldn't work with a brand Y television. Just look up the communications protocol.
With a link (ethernet or serial) to any modern day PC they'll just brute force it.
Riiiiight. The DVD's addition rule is [1]+[3] and the TV's is [6]+[17]. What's our secret key? It could be 24 (7+17 and 9+15) or 57 (17+40 and 56+1) or 29387 (12412+16975 and 19280+10107).... Each is equally likely, so yes you could brute force it, but if the actual keys are big enough, it would take a Really Long Time to do it. This is the idea behind just about all forms of modern encryption; they can be broken by brute force, but it takes so long it's not worth it.
Could this be broken on a modern PC? Assuming you could easily verify that you got the unencrypted form and the secret keys are 17 decimal digits, then on average it would take you 5e17 guesses to brute force it. If you assume checking 1,000,000 per second, that's 5e11 seconds > 15844 years. Don't hold your breath.
This is why the attack in TFA is useful. Instead of having to try billions of possible keys, you can algebraically figure out a secret vector, so then cracking the encryption is a simple elementary school addition problem. Solving a set of linear equations to get the secret vector can be done in slightly less than thousands of years.
It won't be difficult.
Yes, it will. That's just like saying "cracking RSA is super-easy because it's just finding the prime factors of a number!!!!!!!11!!1one" So, why can't anyone with a modern PC bring RSA to its knees? After all, when you publish your public key, you're also publishing your private key, too.... if someone can figure out the factors of your modulus. You can just brute force it -- it won't be difficult.
Re:Here's what will happen
by
name773
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· Score: 1
each device only has one key vector and addition rule. why would it handshake more than once per device?
If they can't get to it from the case connector they'll open the box and find a different set of wires on the circuit board to tap into. Yes, it'll take more research into the chips on the board but eventually a weak point will be found.
It's been going on for centuries. Keep arguing. Unless you're willing to bet that HDCP will be the be all and end all of encryption methods and no other better method will ever be needed then you'd best just pack up and shut up now. If you are willing to bet on it then I'll be more than happy to take you up on your offer of free money.
-- The government itself is not stealing your liberties. Their new programs are enabling criminals who will.
If they can't get to it from the case connector they'll open the box and find a different set of wires on the circuit board to tap into. Yes, it'll take more research into the chips on the board but eventually a weak point will be found.
Well, duh. The point is to prevent a descrambling device in the middle that end users can use, such as the cable descramblers that are used today. If you could descramble at will, you can copy the HD content all you want. However, most end users won't take apart their new high definition DVD player and start hooking up wires.
It's much easier to stop a handful of people that mass-produce illegal copies than it is to stop millions of end users from making just a few copies.
I never said this was a particularly good encryption system, either. I just pointed out that it's naive to think "we'll just brute force it, and it'll be easy".
Re:Exactly. Ed's math is borked.
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
a whole nother ???
Knowing the vectors is only half the deal
by
Opportunist
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· Score: 1
When you know the vectors of a machine, you only know what it can send you, but not what it expects from you. When the machine tells you to add [1] and [3], you have to know the index of this rule in its ruleset as well, so you know first of all what it wants to hear from you, and second which indexes it wants to get asked from you so it adds up to the same number.
Technically you could of course go ahead and implement the same vectors and keys, which would of course yield the same results. But you need the ruleset, too, or at the very least the same keys the machine has.
A true generic hack that works against any machine would require vectors and math rules, so you could tell the correct answer without knowing the asking machine's ruleset.
-- We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:Exactly. Ed's math is borked.
by
Don_dumb
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· Score: 1
But one guesses that maybe the media will then come with something that recognizes that model number and refuses to play in high def. Not sure if they could get away with that as it would piss off some consumers.
Not to mention the manufacturer, I cant imagine Sony being too happy when Fox puts a "cannot be played on Sony xxxxxx players" on its media, as consumers may buy another player instead. If this was to be attempted then we could see a wonderful end to the HDCP madness as Sony (or another player maker, of course) would send in their lawyers to stop anyone "blacklisting specifically their equipment".
And of course, I can only hope this happens as the only way to prevent all erosion of our consumer rights is to let the big corps fight amongst themselves. The battle between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray is one example (I hope they both lose).
-- If this were really happening, what would you think?
This is an interesting device: http://www.doremilabs.com/products/XDVI-20.htm It converts a DVI signal into an SDI-HD signal. Then with a card like this -- http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hd/ and a disk array that could handle about 1.5 gbits/sec you could record the high-def signal in an accessible form. With the drives we're in the $1500 range for all the gear, so it's not cheap, but it is 'prosumer' level.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you would need to recompress the data on the fly before writing to disk. 1.5gb/sec would be approx 187MB/sec (1500/8) which I do not believe any consumer disk array can achieve. Also, is 1.5gb the standard data rate for 1280x720 + 5.1 audio?
Nova in HD uses a litle over 8GB of disk space for a one hour show. NFL Football games in HD use between 25GB and 30GB, depending on if the game was in 1080i(cbs) or 720p(fox). A NFL Football game is typically around 3 hours.
My ATA133 RAID-5 array was able to handle the stream. I've since move the MythTV dump to a serial ATA RAID-0 array; needed more space, disk space just keeps getting cheaper and didn't really the data protection(raid-5) for recorded tv. Access to both arrays is across a 100mbps switch. No bandwidth problems writing to the array and reading from the array across the same port, i.e. start watching a show a few minutes after it started recording; front-end(machine with capture card) is writing out to the back-end with the disk array.
The HD stream is over the air broadcast, the capture card is a pcHDTV-3000... HD stream is written as the raw mpeg2 stream.
-- If the govt becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law, it invites man to become his own law, it invites anarchy
That is because you are capturing an MPEG-2 compressed stream. The card listed in the parent thread give uncompressed SDI video capture which is a lot higher bitrate. It is used in broadcast studios for maintaining high video quality before being compressed into mpeg-2 for transport.
Couldn't you get this without first gaining the secret vectors for 40 devices? Suppose you only knew the secret vector for just one device. Borrowing from the article's example, couldn't you do something like the following:
Alice is a device whose secret vector has been obtained through means not addressed here. Bob is a commercially purchased device with an unknown secret vector.
Known: Alice secret vector is (26,19,12,7) Known: Alice addition rule is [1]+[2] Known: Bob's addition rule is [2]+[4] Unknown: Bob's secret vector (b1,b2,b3,b4)
Hacker impersonating Alice receives data from Bob and decrypts it into DATA.
Hacker now knows that b1+b2 = a2+a4 = 19+7 = 26
Hacker changes his addition rule [1]+[3] and tries again. Hacker receives encrypted data from Bob. [1]+[3] is some Keysize number (2^56?). Hacker performs a brute force attack against the encrypted data until he finds key K that produces the same decrypted DATA as before. Hacker now knows that b1+b3 = K. 26-K = (b1+b2)-(b1+b3) = b2-b3.
Repeat a couple times and you have enough equations to solve for the individual vector values. This gives you Bob's secret vector.
Repeat against 38 more devices and you have the requisite number to break the whole algorithm.
Someone better at math than I am, please feel free to jump in and tear holes in the argument.
-- Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
"Hacker impersonating Alice receives data from Bob and decrypts it into DATA."
That implies that the hacker can already decrypt the data. Unless you know what it is beforehand (eg. a special DVD that contains a known video sequence) you can't do that.
So let's say, for the sake of argument, that the whole keyspace is tested; i.e., that for an arbitrary key that you create you have gathered the entire range of challenge responses from a particular device and stored each. Is an addition vector an NP problem that wouldn't give up the secrets of the key itself even if all the challenge responses were known?
It would seem that it must be to serve the intended purpose. It's much more damaging to be able to spoof a particular device to other devices than to spoof a response sequence with a single devices, yes? That way you could sell a device to any user that emulates a "2007 sony model XXXXX" to any other device to decrypt the stream in real-time, versus having to buy a "2007 sony model XXXXX" to work with the theoretical gizmo. But all of that would rest on the ability of the addition vector to be reverse-engineered, which I must confess I'm ignorant about.
Re:My math is borked, too.
by
goombah99
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· Score: 1
close but not quite.
Here's how spoofing would fail. Suppose I tell a new device I'm a a sony xxxx and my addition key is 1,4,7,... etc and it omitts the last ten bits. Okay that half of the process works. but then the player replys, I'm a panasonic yyyy and my addition key is 1,3,15,...39,40.
Now you're screwed because your spoof device does not know what the keys for 39 and 40 are.
Thus you can't work with the new device. You CAN work with any old device whose subspace of addition keys you have mapped, but not any new device.
Finally just for completeness note that when I say certain bits are held back, that's a simplification. What I mean is that certain basis vectors are held back. Thus to make the point. if every time 39 appears, 40 were also to appear in the addition vector then you can never reverse engineer what 39 and 40 are in the key. you can only figure out what 39+40 are. Thus this talk of certain bits being held back is just for pedagogical simplification.
-- Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Here's how spoofing would fail. Suppose I tell a new device I'm a a sony xxxx and my addition key is 1,4,7,... etc and it omitts the last ten bits. Okay that half of the process works. but then the player replys, I'm a panasonic yyyy and my addition key is 1,3,15,...39,40.
Now you're screwed because your spoof device does not know what the keys for 39 and 40 are.
Thus you can't work with the new device. You CAN work with any old device whose subspace of addition keys you have mapped, but not any new device.
And this wouldn't stop any *genuine* Sony xxxx display from working with a Panasonic yyyy player *why* exactly? (Imagine - Joe Consumer gets a new HD-DVD player to go with his old but still functional (and originally very expensive) HD display, only to find they refuse to work together...)
Re:My math is borked, too.
by
goombah99
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· Score: 1
to answer your question.
If you only have a subspace of example keys (that is to say, you only have devices whose additiion mask bits span say 30 bits not the full 40) then at best you can only solve for the 30 corresponding key values. So the spoof Sony XXXX can answer correctly when queried with any addition mask that is contained in the 30 key values it knows. The first time it gets a query outside that range it cant come up with the correct decode secret. Now a real Sony XXXX can create the right secret no matter what the addition mask because it knows all 40 key values.
-- Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
IT'S NOT ABOUT PIRACY!
by
nagora
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· Score: 5, Insightful
This stuff, just like region encoding, is about price-fixing. That's why the security is crap: its only purpose is to prevent the 99.99% of consumers who will never crack even a trivial encryption from recording a TV programme instead of going out and buying the HDDVD of the series later in the year. That keeps the price of those DVD's up and that's all this is about.
It used to be called "a cartel" and it used to be illegal.
TWW
-- "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
You are correct, but this principle is relevant in a much more general sense, this being that greed is nearly always the underlying factor in witch-hunts, business decisions, and government policy. People scream about things like "piracy", "corporate restructuring", and "terrorism" (to name a few), yet the underlying reasons are almost always love of money and power. Instead of debating whether or not the evil du jour is legitimate, we should instead be asking whether or not greed is a good enough explanation. Unsurprisingly, it most usually is.
Re:Exactly. Ed's math is borked.
by
doormat
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· Score: 1
But the addition vectors are all crammed into the first 14 or 15 bits of the 40 bit addition vector. (that is bits 16 to 40 are zero). This would assure that the addition vectors are linearly dependent and the code cannot be cracked.
Didnt the article say that the vectors always have 20 1's and 20 zeros? Doesnt that limit the permutability of the vector?
Also, if you were to hand vectors out 10,000 keys like that to one manufacturer, woudln't you only need 14 or 15 of those types of devices to conspire to break the system? You could essentially break any device of that manufacturer (or whoever made the internals) with a fewer number of devices.
-- The Doormat
If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
Apparently this is easy.
by
mozu
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· Score: 2, Insightful
The solution is easy according to an anonymous physicist. I showed him
the problem and it took him 2 min to do this. He laughed when I told
him this is a multi-billion dollar cipher system.
If (no. of eqns.) >= (no. of variables), the equations are
solvable.
Apparently any 1st year maths student can do this. This is not the
best method however and using a matrix to solve for lambda is the best
way, so he says. By the way it took me about 2 hours brute forcing it
by logical trial and error using pen and paper.
Re:Apparently this is easy.
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
The "theorem" you gave is most definitely false. Its definitely not true for non-linear equations. Furthermore, its not always true for linear equations either. It doesn't sound like you are terribly mathematically inclined, so I will not bore you with details. If you are actually curious, pick up just about any Linear Algebra book.
However, while I'm not certain, we can probably count on the system being linear in this case. And, we can probably count on the existence of a solution as well. So, you probably are right in this case, but I just cringe as a mathematician when someone says an incorrect theorem.
I'd also like to point out that the method you gave for solving the system is essentially equivalent to using a matrix and row-reducing. The only difference is notation
Re:Apparently this is easy.
by
chris_eineke
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· Score: 1
using a matrix to solve for lambda is the best way, so he says.
He was just trying to impress you by saying lambda. The steps you have outlined are the row operations on a matrix you have to do to solve the matrix (because there is a one-to-one translation between a system of equations and a augmented matrix):
the keys are never transmeitted only the addition rules. So here's a hypthetical exchange
device 1: my addition rule is 17+13 device 2: my addition rule is 24+5 device 1: okay I computed the secret= key[24]+key[5] (which I alone know) device 2: okay I computed the secret = key[17]+key[13] (which I alone know)
at this point both secrets are the same but neither secret has appeared on any tapable wire.
now dev1 says: dev1: youre challenge is to encrypt this number: rand = 1380912 dev2: my resonpsne is theat encrypting 1380912 with my secret key gives 478120181 dev1: hey that's right, I was able to check that using my secret dev2: youre challenge is to encrypt this number: eand = 18171710...
and so on.
now each device has poven to each other they share the same secret key but they have never transmitted it. You cna't memorize the transaction pattern for two reasons. 1) the random challenge will vary even if the addition keys dont
and any time you connect a new device the addition keys will change.
-- Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
I think everyone is getting things too complicated! in ANY system that can be used by humans (ie viewed and/or heard) there comes a point whereby whatever data is used becomes 'human' readable, at that point all security becomes useless. I can read from just before the output device, why not just unplug the LCD screen and read the signals direct? All HDPC does is try to stop me from reading the signal PC to LCD electronics, as far as I can make out I can read the internal signal to the actual crystal matrix with no problem. Just as for any audio I can plug the speaker output into an input and read that. All any DRM does is make pirated copies MORE attractive.
Hardware design costs: $6 Million
User Interface software design: $1 Million
DRM Engineering: $1 Million
Having some wiseass kid from Sweden (Or wherever) render $1 million worth of DRM Engineering useless a month before your product ships: Priceless.
--
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Re:Engineering Cost Estimate
by
ultranova
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· Score: 1
Having some wiseass kid from Sweden (Or wherever) render $1 million worth of DRM Engineering useless a month before your product ships: Priceless.
The kid isn't a wiseass, he's an idiot. He should have waited until the product ships, when it's too widespread to do anything about the matter anymore. A month before the product ships you can still do last-minute desperate corrections; when the product has been sold for a year it's too late.
Not that it matters to me. All this crap means is that I'll be getting my content from Pirate Bay, since that way I can be sure that any copy protection has been keel-hauled into submission.
--
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Re:Engineering Cost Estimate
by
Greyfox
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· Score: 1
I think you're overestimating the ability of the companies involved to change their course. It probably took them years to design their encryption scheme, there are a lot of companies all of whom have to be doing the same thing for the scheme to work, and the first devices are probably already in production. All the wheels have been set in motions, announcements made, ads purchased, etc. I don't think anyone's going to stop all that just because a theoretical weakness in the encryption scheme has been uncovered.
Even if they were so inclined, the time it'd take to put together a viable encryption scheme would make delaying production prohibitively expensive. I'd be surprised if they didn't go ahead with everything despite this article.
--
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Re:not as easy as it seems, or am I misunderstandi
by
Sloppy
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· Score: 1
Yeah, I noticed that too. The conspirators need the office in Burbank to conspire with them!
-- As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Conspiracy, I believe the correct word is...
by
xquark
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· Score: 1
Collusion, In cryptography when more than one end of a "secure" protocol begins to act in a way with another end(s) of the protocol which is disadvantageous to the overall security of the protocol, this is known as collusion.
Conspiracy is what UFO nuts and the alike prefer to use when talking about supposed government behavior which is meant to distort their reality. ie: taxes and elections.
Arash
-- Arash Partow's Philosophy:
Be a person who knows what they don't know, and not a person who doesn't know.
New business-model: Blackmail your competitor!
by
tlk+nnr
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· Score: 2, Interesting
The handshake algorithms allows a cool new business-strategy:
- get 40 secret vectors - use these 40 vectors to recover the secret vector of a well-selling HD-DVD TV screen - approach the vendor, and threaten to release the secret vector - profit!: The vendor will have to pay, otherwise the TV screen will end up on the blacklist, and the owners won't be able to play HD-DVD's anymore.
Forget TFA! Order it from here!
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
Get your "S"pecialized "H"DTV "I"ntegrity "T"ransducer (aka Spatz-Tech amplifier) right here at http://www.spatz-tech.de/.
The HDCP handshake needn't be strong. We all know that cryptography is of little use to DRM.
The point is, it's painted as a technological measure for protecting copyrighted content. That's enough to get you arrested under the DMCA if you willfully break it.
If you already have one secret vector and the addition vector that goes with it, why would we need to figure out some other devices secrets? Couldn't a device be made that uses the information we already have, that outputs non-HDCP encoded data?
Draconian Restrictions Management has a nice ring to it.
Re:Exactly. Ed's math is borked.
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 0
a whole nother ???
Abso spanking lutely.
This isn't about cracking keys themselves
by
rabtech
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· Score: 1
This isn't about the keys themselves... this is about the fact that if you can pull off the attack you can render the "blacklisting" or "key-revocation" system completely inert, meaning the protection is now permanently broken.
The whole idea behind the revocations was that when hackers inevitably get ahold of some keys they can just blacklist those keys and everything will be A-OK (no DeCSS). We now know that this system will never work.
It strikes me that if you ever get one secret list of numbers the whole system is broken because you can perform every addition correctly now. So Felten must be describing a system of breaking it when no secret numbers are known, unlike what some other posters have theorized where getting 40 companies to release their secret numbers would have been required. But read the Wikipedia article on HDCP for a good discussion of how they try to protect against this.
I once heard a Secret defined as: Something you tell only one person at a time.
Too many people have to know this secret to keep it secret. Especially since once you have one secret set of numbers (which could be traced back to the leaker), you should be able to generate an equivalent set not belonging to anyone.
Wikipedia says that Key Revocation is part of the standard, which means that it's possible to determine just who is on the other end somehow by the way the keys are added up. But can this be effectively used in the real world? If someone breaks the key list in, say, Sony televisions, can they truly, suddenly, disable tens of thousands of expensive television sets from receiving future content without massive consumer backlash? Can Sony afford to "repair" all the compromised sets?
Seems to me that, in the real world, any attempt to actually enforce this protection, which is eventually bound to leak out anyway, can only succeed by destroying your customer base in the process. Not that the idiots attempting this aren't foolish enough to actually try it.
-- "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Also - anyone thinking the 40 'conspiring' devices makes it impractical to break HDCP/HDMI - think again. It just means 40 (or less) like minded hackers have to get together - not particularly hard to imagine these days.
Furthermore, as Ed notes, once one key is found, we can generate keys on the fly (if I read that right. if not, we can still get quite a few keys before they can invalidate them all). At that point, an intelligent hacker can build a system to plug into anything with HDCP and determine the key within minutes (generate 40 new keys, sync 40 times, do the algebra, and now you know).
Why don't these people understand that if you give people the key and the mechanism for unlocking things (both contained in the firmware/hardware for these devices, at this point), you can't keep them secret for long?
-- I [may] disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Also - anyone thinking the 40 'conspiring' devices makes it impractical to break HDCP/HDMI - think again. It just means 40 (or less) like minded hackers have to get together - not particularly hard to imagine these days.
There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
But I don't have room for the forty big-screen TVs.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
NVFM
I dub thee... Sir Phobos, Knight of Mars, Beater of Ass.
Four was an example for the article.
Try reading the rest of the article.
His attack methodology is correct, but it will take more than 40 devices to break the system. The chances are very low that all 40 devices being linearly independent, and therefore each one offering non-duplicate information about the system. If you read the comments, he actually inadvertantly ran into this problem with his small example of 4 keys.
However, in writing this, I realize that I do not know how many keys you would need to present a good probability of solving the system of equations. Anyone want to run a simulation?
security vs. ease of use. You can make something so secure that it is almost impossible to break. The trouble is that it becomes so cumbersome that no one wants to use it.
The example that comes quickly to mind is copy protection on software. At some point it drives away paying customers and doesn't deter the pirates.
Personally, I think I will continue to use the analog hole because there isn't that much stuff that really needs high definition to be enjoyed.
From TFA: Apparently Mr. Felten has a somewhat twisted idea of "eminently doable".
The HDCP CA will certainly only give out keys to people who sign very very scary agreements not to engage in exactly the sort of activities described. While a few of them might "accidentally" leak their keys, I find it exceedingly unlikely that 40 such companies will pay for a key vector, just to take the risk of getting sued out of existence.
Though I have to wonder about the actual security of these keys under the condition of physical access. That point might make Felten's proposed crack viable, if we just need to find a weaknedd in 40 devices out of the thousands that will eventually hit the market - ESPECIALLY if player software needs to have a valid key as well.
I also wonder why we need to "know" even one, much less 40, secret keys beforehand, however... It doesn't sound like you need to come up with the correct answer to get a single response. If you faked 40 devices, couldn't you still get the target device to respond at least once to each, thereby getting the necessary 40 unknowns? Sure, this would reduce to 40 instances of cracking a 56(?) bit key, but a modern PC can brute-force that in under a day.
As a poster said at TFA, why did they reveal this attack so soon? It would have been much better to wait another few months until HDCP displays and video cards were shipping in larger numbers. That being said, who's comes up with these lame cryptosystems anyway? First CSS, which was a joke, now this, and you know the Advanced CSS will have holes in it big enough to drive a truck through. The bad news is that some day they will start hiring people who know what they're doing with cryptosystems and then we're all screwed.
From the article:
"This sounds pretty cool. But it has a very large problem: if any four devices conspire, they can break the security of the system.
To see how, let's do an example. Suppose that Alice, Bob, Charlie, and Diane conspire, and that the conspiracy wants to figure out the secret vector of some innocent victim, Ed. Ed's addition rule is "[1]+[4]", and his secret vector is, of course, a secret."
HDCP has been broken, and has been proved to be weak in 2001 twice. See http://apache.dataloss.nl/~fred/www.nunce.org/hdcp /hdcp111901.htm
In real life the devices have a vector of 40 secret numbers, he's using a vector of 4 to illustrate withour bogging down the reader.
The key is that with N variables (the number of different numbers in the vector), you need N equations to solve the set of equations for all of those variables - it's simple linear algebra.
When you purchase a licence, you get a bunch of 10000 keys for $16000, so S.O.Mebody could use this within an organisation to analyse the generation matrix, and actually produce 40 new keys and release them to the wild. No comeback.
Simon
Physicists get Hadrons!
If the terrorists want to crack HDCP, I'm all for it as long as they release it to the general public... which they probably wouldnt being terrorists and all. They would reprogram their pre-hdcp complient HDTV's to get full high def channels. those bastards.
It wasnt rare to find a building with half of the neighbors connected to the same set-top-box when PPV arrived. ;))
Well lets say a company had 40 keys... but they all have the same addition formula. What now? Everything would come out the same.
I was checking the Sunday advertising fliers this morning, and see that many of the new TVs are advertising HDMI as well as PC connections. Can someone please explain my limitations?
1: Can I hook up my current VGA or DVI to one of these, and display the content I can currently display?
2: Is the only limitation/constraint the new HD/BlueRay DVDs with "double-plus-good super-duper copy-protection, put there to protect me AND the children"?
3: Related to both, assume I have MythTV running with an HD capture card. (I don't yet, but plan to, before they become illegal. What's the latest status?) Can I run my captured content out through one of these new displays?
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
There is one thing I hate worse than this DRM (Draconian Rights Management) crap: region encoding. DRM only effects me if I want to make a backup or play a disk I bought with Linux. Now if I buy a disk in Europe and want to play it in Canada it is not doable, officially. Unofficially I have to get a DVD player with a backdoor, or a PC DVD player with the Firmware hacked or rip the DVD - all this for a DVD I bought legitimately!?
And then there is something that scares me: how unaware of this many people I speak to are, even some people working in IT!
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
I had exactly the same thought. I think this attack may fail. Or rather not be as immediately successful as imagined. Ironically, the fatal flaw is contained in the same algebra mistake made in the orginal post.
In order to prevent this attack from being done easily, the central authority could deliberately hand out linearly dependent addition vectors to any company that applies. For example, suppose a company applies for 10,000 keys. The central authority gives them 10,000 keys and 10,000 addition vectors. But the addition vectors are all crammed into the first 14 or 15 bits of the 40 bit addition vector. (that is bits 16 to 40 are zero). This would assure that the addition vectors are linearly dependent and the code cannot be cracked.
In effect the 10,000 keys are hobbled to representing no more than 15 independent keys, not the requisite 40 to crack this.
Thinking even more globally, the central authority could reserve say the last 10 bits of the addition vector, so that all devices manufactured from 2008 to 2010 never used the last 10 bits. then all devices manufactured from 2010 to 2012 always used the 31st bit but none of the last 9. Then in 2013-2014, all devices always use the 32nd bit but none of the last 8. and so on.
thus they can prevent anyone from collecting all 40 so far into the future that they can assure that any crack that works this year will fail on all new devices.
Of course, the hackers only need to stay on the ball and update their hacks as they can. But it's going to take a very large consipiracy among multiple companies to collect large enough set of addition vectors to crack this.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
This is what the guy who originally said he could easily crack HDCP said. And the only reason he didn't release specifics (which could have allowed them to fix it before it went 'public') is because he'd have been in some boiling legal water thanks to the DMCA. As it is, the publisher of this story probably will be, but the system will still be cracked *very* quickly, and we'll all have AnyHDCP running in our trays so our computers are stupid-proof.
How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
I may be totally misunderstanding, but won't the 40 devices need to have their private numbers assigned from the central authority as well (and presumably have to pay $$$$$ for it)? Otherwise, when they send [1]+[2] to the device they are cracking, and get back [3]+[4], it will be meaningless unless the hacker's internal numbers' 3+4 addition equals 1+2 of the remote device.
Oh, I see, breaking the security of the systems. Right. Didn't see that the first time. Sorry.
The 'Net is a waste of time, and that's exactly what's right about it. - William Gibson
IANAIPL, but....
You're arguing your fair use rights against the copyright holders rights to regionally control distribution. I don't think this is quite as cut and dried.
On the other hand, region encoding doesn't seem to make as much sense in this day of global economies. Do they still even have staggered releases of movies?
Ok, so help me out here. Doesn't that reduce the effective keyspace by an order of 2^16? Seems to me that would make a brute-force attack much more practical. (It doesn't matter if you set the first 16, last 16, or any arbitrary (but consistent) combination of bits to zero, it will still reduce the keyspace for all devices by the same amount.)
Of course, I don't know much about the algorithm itself, but from the blog's example, it should be simple to test the validity of any arbitrary key with any device.
Increasing the keyspace as you have suggested would actually make the codes more secure as time went on - but given that there are always going to be those initial devices with 24 instead of 40 bits, those will always be the most attractive target. And it only takes one key, one time, to build a device which can output an unencrypted stream, breaking the whole system catastrophically.
Have I got that right?
[Note: I define pirate as someone who infringes copyright on a large scale for profit. That doesn't mean others aren't infringing.]
All this anti-piracy encryption is still missing the point. Long before CSS was cracked, pirates were bit copying DVDs.
AFAIKT, the new disc formats don't have any magic that prevents a pirate from making physcial (i.e. analog) copies of a purchased source disc. Players have to be able to read the bits off the disc. A recorder can write the same bits back on a disc. No decryption necessary for a perfect copy.
Maybe they'll bring back the "bad sector" copy protection schemes. Remember when you couldn't play a game w/o its install floppy that had deliberate bad sectors on it? And you couldn't copy it as the PC would helpfully correct the bad sectors. Yes, I've keyed in boot vectors in binary from the front panel, why do you ask?
You have it partly right and partly wrong.
First, HDCP does not require super security. It's not how the media is encoded it's just the transport from the player to the viewer that is being encoded. There's a whole nother more secure code for the media encryption. I think what they want to avoid is some gizmho you could put inline that would decode it. SO if they can create a situtation where there is no universal gizmho for every player/viewer combination or one that breaks every year when a new device is released it accomplishes a lot of their purposes.
One supposes that the point of attack has to be outside the media player (dvd) since otherwise there is no need to attack the transport layer and you already have everything you need to decode the video if you are in controll of the inner workings of the player.
So in trying to attack the transport layer there's no reduction of the complexity of the key by restricting the addition vector to a subset of the possible bits. In general it's always going to be about half the bits (half on half off).
By restricting the addition key space its sort of like restricting the space of challenge codes to a challenge response algorithm. The main effect of this is to prevent a challenge code from being seen previously and thus the response learned.
Of course it does, as you surmise, reduce the brute force number of challenge codes one might try to learn every possible attack for that series of player. But I suspect the set is still so large it matters not. And moreover, as I said, that still wont let you build a universal decoded gizmho, just one that works for that particular player for that model year.
Of course for some folks that's all the want. e.g. if it becomes known that there is a gizmho that can be attached to a 2007 sony model XXXXX that can then be spoofed with a certain addition vector then all the hackers will go out and buy that 2007 model which will then work indefintely. But one guesses that maybe the media will then come with something that recognizes that model number and refuses to play in high def. Not sure if they could get away with that as it would piss off some consumers.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Wow so many folks sort of missed the point here...
Felton's description of the weaknesses of DHCP handshakes is of only one potential attack. Combined with other attacks and it's entirely possible that a group effort could crank out new secret vectors faster than the M.A.F.I.A.A. could revoke known compromised ones.
For example: If more was known (than I know) about the encryption algorithm used (AKA "the hdcpRngCipher") work could be started on creating dense & smart Time-Memory Trade-Off tables. This is a non-trivial task involving tens of thousands of CPU hours... a perfect thing for a validating distributed computing application (oh. this. has. so. been. done. before).
Also a HDMI repeater or splitter isn't very far from being a sniffer... I think all it lacks is a little I2C to USB help. This, the tables above, & a HDCP device will net you all the vectors you need to employ Felton's attack. Once one set has been compromised and the methodology worked out it's just a matter of turning the crank to get more and potentially very, very quickly.
The utility of these attacks goes well beyond being able to view 1080p on a non DHCP device... one could render revocation useless be attacking high-end components sold by M.A.F.I.A.A. members (i.e. Sony). This eventually must lead hardware devices running out of un-revoked vectors and becoming inoperable... an untenable situation for the M.A.F.I.A.A.
Now, if such a concerted attack is organized on the hi-def media... I feel that we will be right where we are now... a reasonably astute person can watch any DVD wherever they want and they can retain a backup of that media in a format of their choosing.
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
First of all, let me admit that I'm not big into electronics. Best I can do is hook a cable onto my computer and pray that it gets the signal across. So please educate me.
How is he going to find out what the device "wants to hear"? Is he going to sniff into the communication between two "legit" devices? Or is he going to try to "talk" with one of them and brute force through try and error (because it's unlikely the device will send him the "right" answer to the question as well)?
How's he getting the information?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Someone will connect an oscilloscope to the wire(s) that connect(s) the devices and reverse engineer the communications signal. They will then construct a custom breadboard able to talk to any HDCP device while being able to impersonate a device with a programmable HDCP vector/rule. With a link (ethernet or serial) to any modern day PC they'll just brute force it.
It won't be difficult.
The government itself is not stealing your liberties. Their new programs are enabling criminals who will.
a whole nother ???
When you know the vectors of a machine, you only know what it can send you, but not what it expects from you. When the machine tells you to add [1] and [3], you have to know the index of this rule in its ruleset as well, so you know first of all what it wants to hear from you, and second which indexes it wants to get asked from you so it adds up to the same number.
Technically you could of course go ahead and implement the same vectors and keys, which would of course yield the same results. But you need the ruleset, too, or at the very least the same keys the machine has.
A true generic hack that works against any machine would require vectors and math rules, so you could tell the correct answer without knowing the asking machine's ruleset.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
And of course, I can only hope this happens as the only way to prevent all erosion of our consumer rights is to let the big corps fight amongst themselves. The battle between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray is one example (I hope they both lose).
If this were really happening, what would you think?
This is an interesting device:
http://www.doremilabs.com/products/XDVI-20.htm
It converts a DVI signal into an SDI-HD signal.
Then with a card like this -- http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hd/
and a disk array that could handle about 1.5 gbits/sec you could record the high-def signal in an accessible form.
With the drives we're in the $1500 range for all the gear, so it's not cheap, but it is 'prosumer' level.
Ah, that explains the 40 suspicious looking toasters gathered in my basement whispering to each other.
Couldn't you get this without first gaining the secret vectors for 40 devices? Suppose you only knew the secret vector for just one device. Borrowing from the article's example, couldn't you do something like the following:
Alice is a device whose secret vector has been obtained through means not addressed here. Bob is a commercially purchased device with an unknown secret vector.
Known: Alice secret vector is (26,19,12,7)
Known: Alice addition rule is [1]+[2]
Known: Bob's addition rule is [2]+[4]
Unknown: Bob's secret vector (b1,b2,b3,b4)
Hacker impersonating Alice receives data from Bob and decrypts it into DATA.
Hacker now knows that b1+b2 = a2+a4 = 19+7 = 26
Hacker changes his addition rule [1]+[3] and tries again.
Hacker receives encrypted data from Bob. [1]+[3] is some Keysize number (2^56?). Hacker performs a brute force attack against the encrypted data until he finds key K that produces the same decrypted DATA as before. Hacker now knows that b1+b3 = K.
26-K = (b1+b2)-(b1+b3) = b2-b3.
Repeat a couple times and you have enough equations to solve for the individual vector values. This gives you Bob's secret vector.
Repeat against 38 more devices and you have the requisite number to break the whole algorithm.
Someone better at math than I am, please feel free to jump in and tear holes in the argument.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
I see what you mean, that makes more sense.
So let's say, for the sake of argument, that the whole keyspace is tested; i.e., that for an arbitrary key that you create you have gathered the entire range of challenge responses from a particular device and stored each. Is an addition vector an NP problem that wouldn't give up the secrets of the key itself even if all the challenge responses were known?
It would seem that it must be to serve the intended purpose. It's much more damaging to be able to spoof a particular device to other devices than to spoof a response sequence with a single devices, yes? That way you could sell a device to any user that emulates a "2007 sony model XXXXX" to any other device to decrypt the stream in real-time, versus having to buy a "2007 sony model XXXXX" to work with the theoretical gizmo. But all of that would rest on the ability of the addition vector to be reverse-engineered, which I must confess I'm ignorant about.
It used to be called "a cartel" and it used to be illegal.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
But the addition vectors are all crammed into the first 14 or 15 bits of the 40 bit addition vector. (that is bits 16 to 40 are zero). This would assure that the addition vectors are linearly dependent and the code cannot be cracked.
Didnt the article say that the vectors always have 20 1's and 20 zeros? Doesnt that limit the permutability of the vector?
Also, if you were to hand vectors out 10,000 keys like that to one manufacturer, woudln't you only need 14 or 15 of those types of devices to conspire to break the system? You could essentially break any device of that manufacturer (or whoever made the internals) with a fewer number of devices.
The Doormat
If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
The solution is easy according to an anonymous physicist. I showed him the problem and it took him 2 min to do this. He laughed when I told him this is a multi-billion dollar cipher system.
Apparently any 1st year maths student can do this. This is not the best method however and using a matrix to solve for lambda is the best way, so he says. By the way it took me about 2 hours brute forcing it by logical trial and error using pen and paper.
okay then 20 not 15. whatever. they just don't release the full basis to any vendor. then you cant universally reverse emgineer it.
and no. you are confusing devices with dimensionality. a 20 dimensional spaces spans much more then 10,000 devices.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
No this scheme won't work. Here's why.
...
the keys are never transmeitted only the addition rules. So here's a hypthetical exchange
device 1: my addition rule is 17+13
device 2: my addition rule is 24+5
device 1: okay I computed the secret= key[24]+key[5] (which I alone know)
device 2: okay I computed the secret = key[17]+key[13] (which I alone know)
at this point both secrets are the same but neither secret has appeared on any tapable wire.
now dev1 says:
dev1: youre challenge is to encrypt this number: rand = 1380912
dev2: my resonpsne is theat encrypting 1380912 with my secret key gives 478120181
dev1: hey that's right, I was able to check that using my secret
dev2: youre challenge is to encrypt this number: eand = 18171710
and so on.
now each device has poven to each other they share the same secret key but they have never transmitted it.
You cna't memorize the transaction pattern for two reasons. 1) the random challenge will vary even if the addition keys dont
and any time you connect a new device the addition keys will change.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
I think everyone is getting things too complicated! in ANY system that can be used by humans (ie viewed and/or heard) there comes a point whereby whatever data is used becomes 'human' readable, at that point all security becomes useless. I can read from just before the output device, why not just unplug the LCD screen and read the signals direct? All HDPC does is try to stop me from reading the signal PC to LCD electronics, as far as I can make out I can read the internal signal to the actual crystal matrix with no problem. Just as for any audio I can plug the speaker output into an input and read that. All any DRM does is make pirated copies MORE attractive.
Hardware design costs: $6 Million
User Interface software design: $1 Million
DRM Engineering: $1 Million
Having some wiseass kid from Sweden (Or wherever) render $1 million worth of DRM Engineering useless a month before your product ships: Priceless.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Yeah, I noticed that too. The conspirators need the office in Burbank to conspire with them!
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Collusion, In cryptography when more than one end of a
"secure" protocol begins to act in a way with another
end(s) of the protocol which is disadvantageous to the
overall security of the protocol, this is known as
collusion.
Conspiracy is what UFO nuts and the alike prefer to use
when talking about supposed government behavior which
is meant to distort their reality. ie: taxes and elections.
Arash
Arash Partow's Philosophy: Be a person who knows what they don't know, and not a person who doesn't know.
The handshake algorithms allows a cool new business-strategy:
- get 40 secret vectors
- use these 40 vectors to recover the secret vector of a well-selling HD-DVD TV screen
- approach the vendor, and threaten to release the secret vector
- profit!: The vendor will have to pay, otherwise the TV screen will end up on the blacklist, and the owners won't be able to play HD-DVD's anymore.
Get your "S"pecialized "H"DTV "I"ntegrity "T"ransducer (aka Spatz-Tech amplifier) right here at http://www.spatz-tech.de/.
/.
That is h t t p : / / w w w . s p a t z - t e c h . d e
Get it while it last! Before you get screwed over royally by the "S"pecial "H"ollywood "I"nsecurity "T"roupers (sic).
The HDCP handshake needn't be strong. We all know that cryptography is of little use to DRM.
The point is, it's painted as a technological measure for protecting copyrighted content. That's enough to get you arrested under the DMCA if you willfully break it.
AC
If you already have one secret vector and the addition vector that goes with it, why would we need to figure out some other devices secrets? Couldn't a device be made that uses the information we already have, that outputs non-HDCP encoded data?
Ooh, a new definition of the "D" in DRM.
Draconian Restrictions Management has a nice ring to it.
a whole nother ???
Abso spanking lutely.
This isn't about the keys themselves... this is about the fact that if you can pull off the attack you can render the "blacklisting" or "key-revocation" system completely inert, meaning the protection is now permanently broken.
The whole idea behind the revocations was that when hackers inevitably get ahold of some keys they can just blacklist those keys and everything will be A-OK (no DeCSS). We now know that this system will never work.
Natural != (nontoxic || beneficial)
I once heard a Secret defined as: Something you tell only one person at a time.
Too many people have to know this secret to keep it secret. Especially since once you have one secret set of numbers (which could be traced back to the leaker), you should be able to generate an equivalent set not belonging to anyone.
Wikipedia says that Key Revocation is part of the standard, which means that it's possible to determine just who is on the other end somehow by the way the keys are added up. But can this be effectively used in the real world? If someone breaks the key list in, say, Sony televisions, can they truly, suddenly, disable tens of thousands of expensive television sets from receiving future content without massive consumer backlash? Can Sony afford to "repair" all the compromised sets?
Seems to me that, in the real world, any attempt to actually enforce this protection, which is eventually bound to leak out anyway, can only succeed by destroying your customer base in the process. Not that the idiots attempting this aren't foolish enough to actually try it.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Also - anyone thinking the 40 'conspiring' devices makes it impractical to break HDCP/HDMI - think again. It just means 40 (or less) like minded hackers have to get together - not particularly hard to imagine these days.
Furthermore, as Ed notes, once one key is found, we can generate keys on the fly (if I read that right. if not, we can still get quite a few keys before they can invalidate them all). At that point, an intelligent hacker can build a system to plug into anything with HDCP and determine the key within minutes (generate 40 new keys, sync 40 times, do the algebra, and now you know).
Why don't these people understand that if you give people the key and the mechanism for unlocking things (both contained in the firmware/hardware for these devices, at this point), you can't keep them secret for long?
I [may] disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
And we can just imagine what happens then...
Vista:XPSP2::ME:98SE