Slashdot Mirror
Evolution of the Netflix Envelope
An anonymous reader wrote to mention an article over on CNN Money. They go into some detail on what seven years of tinkering has done for the simple red Netflix envelope. From the article: "Years of experimentation went into creating the perfect DVD envelope. In 1999, Netflix started out with a heavy cardboard mailer. With only 100,000 subscribers, costs weren't a concern yet. Then the company experimented with plastic envelopes, which proved not to be recyclable, and padding, which added too much to postage costs. Both top-loading and side-loading envelopes made an appearance."
They re use those things and don't forget what most people rent! I wouldn't seal them with a lick.
Netflix envelope! Too bad everything past the first slide is a 404. Now whatever shall I do?
Imagine shipping 1 billion DVDs for one cent cheaper.
Netflix somehow always knows when I've sent a movie back before it actually gets there. I always assumed the barcode was somehow related to that.
As a long-time netflix user I think the paper envelope they have now is damn near perfect. It's dirt cheap, but keeps the DVD safe. It's recycleable too. It takes 5 seconds to put the DVD in securely and be ready to mail it.
Check out my women's designer clothing store.
That said, I've always wondered why Netflix didn't use more square envelopes. Some of the earlier designs looked that way. I wonder if it has to do with sorting or some such.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
Would I save them any time by ensuring it is visible? Can anyone from Netflix corp answer this?
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
Um, p2p?
I've seen a lot of things, but I've never been a witness.
Only a pointless flame war can guide me through this conundrum. That's why I'm turning to you, O Wise Slashdotters.
For those of you who think that there hasn't been much technological progress since, say, 1980 (except perhaps computers which are special*), this is how it happens. Take this sort of incremental improvement by one company in one very small facet of our lives, and multiply it across any number of thousands of products, carefully trimmed and optimized and made more efficient. You only notice the things that the process isn't very good at; UI, for instance.
(*: And computers only seem special for two reasons: One, most fields don't get to experience exponential growth for decades at a time, and two, you know more about them. There's a lot going on under the hood of any number of other products, too. Familiarity breeds contempt; so does ignorance.)
I love the innovation but personally my postman always seemed to find that ONE weakness in em. I was at an apartment complex with those little metal boxes. I swear the postman would fold them every time and I'd still get a envelope of broken pieces. Happened more times than I'd like to recall.
Constant breakage... they need to spend a fraction of a cent more for a thin cardboard insert... they spend more on reshipping and dvd loss..
Not the smartest folks..
It's a pain when you get your movie and you have to be careful to avoid damanging the return envelope while you open it.
Plus, I can't send it back with a different movie because we only get one at a time.
Silence is golden... and duct tape is silver.
1) The Mailers started white then turned red (Embarrassment about obscene profits?)
2) They switched between side and top openings.
3) They fixed barcode issues.
4) They perfected their "secret sauce"
5) Now this may be irrelevant soon if video-on-demand takes off.
So how does the brief history of the Netflix envelope make the front page anyhow?
How does this make the news at CNN?
Why don't we have a brief history of slashdot interfaces instead? Now that would make for some fun debate.
I noticed they removed the instructions telling people the orientation that the DVD should be returned.
:)
Probably made their lives a lot easier, but I actually didn't notice those instructions until, oh, 6 months into my membership.
Sorry 'bout that.
...letter origami!
Did Netflix try origami?
I have to admit that I am a member of Netflix but I don't recognize the new envelope. Two years ago I moved away from Richmond, VA, where I had originally signed up for netflix. Since the move the last three DVDs I got have been sitting in a box that I have yet to unpack. I've been paying for two years and have not gotten a movie in that same time period. My only consolation to this is that I am sure I hold the record for paying for Netflix service without using it for the longest period of time.
The movies are
Y Tu Mama Tambien
Mission Impossible 2
crap, I can't remember what the third one is.
but the detail they provided is practically useless... like everything else on this bloody planet.
It seems to me that there are a few flaws yet - for example I have torn off the adhesive strip more than once along the wrong set of perforations. I am not sure why the outer flap has to be the full length of the envelope. Sometimes the little adhesive tab tears the envelope when I open the thing.
From the article. The result of more than five years of experimentation, this mailer transports approximately 1.4 million DVDs a day to Netflix's 4.2 million subscribers. This isn't even theoretically possible. This would require them to ship 3 DVDs per person per day. You can tell how they came up with the number. But assuming the post office would deliver the same day it was shipped, and that you watched it and returned it that day, this would require every netflix subscriber to Watch 3 movies a day. I'm skeptical.
71.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
The movie is sent to me in a 6 inch x 9 inch envelope that contains:
This article makes it sound like you have to be an engineer to send a letter.
That's $10 million. Pffft.
That's $10 million. Pffft.
But how much is that per share?
"5) Now this may be irrelevant soon if video-on-demand takes off."
Only for those who have cable or broadband, and the price is competitive with Netflix.
"How does this make the news at CNN?"
Most people don't know what goes into packaging.
"Why don't we have a brief history of slashdot interfaces instead? Now that would make for some fun debate."
Very brief.
I had to "temporarily allow" 3 different "sites" on scriptblocker to see the whole show...
Sorry, but your calculations are a little off. It says 1.4Mil per day for 4.2Mil subscribers.
You are correct in that it works out to "3", but your units are wrong.
It is 1 movie per subscriber every 3 days which is in keeping with my personal use.
12.6Mil per day would be 3 movies per subscriber.
Can you get their vids to work in Mozilla?
I've noticed that the return address on the newer netflix envelopes now reads "Nearest Netflix Shipping Facility" and then has a PO box located in my very small rural town. It makes you wonder if they dont scan the barcodes in different locations and then once that nearby local has marked it as received your next disc is sent. There has to be something to the way they get movies to me so quickly when I live so far from a major city.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
- Winston Churchill
That's a fascinating look at innovation. But they still annoy me in several ways in that it's too easy to damage the return mailer while opening it. First, the perforations on the thin flap are too sturdy. Second, the circular sticker is a pain; unless I am careful I wind up ripping the thin layer with my address on it. If the circular sticker were thinner or perforated or had notches in it to act as stress risers then it would easily rip the way it should. Lastly there is, the flap with the adhesive strip on it to seal it. The line of perforations is often stronger than the fold on the other side of the adhesive strip. Several times I have had to tape a Netflix mailer closed because I accidently ripped off the adhesive strip. Simply cutting notches in the ends of the perforation would get it started ripping.
The fact that there is an "OPEN ALONG EDGE" notice says to me they aren't done innovating. I should be able to open it naïvely the first and get at my disk without worrying about damaging the return envelope.
We're sending DVDs.
In case you weren't aware, DVDs have several properties unlike letters:
1) Rigid
2) Reflective
3) Smooth
If your package alters any of those three properties then your DVD has become a coaster.
Additionally your package has other constraints outside of mailing DVDs:
1) Easy to use
2) Cheap
3) Useful
Cheap means making them lighter and more durable. Useful means making them more productive in the warehouse and as advertising. Easy to use means more users.
GPL Deconstructed
In 1999, Netflix started out with a heavy cardboard mailer. With only 100,000 subscribers, costs weren't a concern yet.
I dunno, you'd think a business with a small number of customers would be cost-conscious. But then 100,000 isn't all that small I suppose.
It requires scripting, dumbass...
I tried Ubuntu's ShipIt service for a few free CDs. They came, but the cardboard holders had scratched the surface enough that the disks were no longer reliable. Of course I found this out 3/4 of the way thru an install in front of a bunch of people I was trying to impress with Linux.
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
Imagine being able to go online and request any movie you want, and be watching it within the hour. (OK, other than using BitTorrent!). You just go down to the local Redbox kiosk and pick it up within the hour.
This is on the way, and you can't beat the current prices ($1/day) for new releases. And, there is a website with Redbox codes where you can get A LOT of free rentals, too.
So, if you are in one of 10 major metros you can get this today.
So, forget the red envelope, and get ready for the Redbox.
I fail to see the impact of this on an essentially square envelope
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
If they don't properly affix the sticker that seals the flap, the USPS sorting machines can mangle them pretty good.
In fact, just today I received only the address flap in the mail. It must've been ripped off from the envelope (who knows what happened to the dvd), and those persistant bastards at the post office delivered just a red flap.
I've also received a disk that had the flap partially torn off. It took two days longer than normal, and the USPS had placed it in a "Sorry we damaged your mail" envelope.
So not quite the perfect solution, but still pretty good.
I didn't try - but if it was flash, I've totally ripped flash out of mozilla. I pretty much expect that I won't see video.
As a long-time netflix user I think the paper envelope they have now is damn near perfect. It's dirt cheap, but keeps the DVD safe. It's recycleable too. It takes 5 seconds to put the DVD in securely and be ready to mail it.
I don't think their so perfect. I work for the post office and have to handle the damn things. I'm not the guy that stuffs your mailbox, I run the sorting machines. (about 95% of your letters are sorted by machine). Problem is, the DVDs jam the machine because they don't flex (enough). They need to be run on a special machine used to sort magazines. I regularly see their ripped envelopes and occasionally broken DVDs from the letter sorters, where they are mixed in with normal letters and difficult to see and remove. The envelope is too flimsy, and the adhesive sticker to "seal" it is a bit of a problem. It sometimes sticks to the adjacent mailpiece. You are seeing the result of "engineering" something to just barely meet requirements, to save a penny or two.
The Blockbuster mailer is great from my point of view. Envelope is sturdy, and fits and protects it's contents well. The NetFlix mailer has the floppy empty "tail" because it is rectangular rather than square. Difficult to handle to load into the machines. This deficiency requires more time to handle the NetFlix, so it costs more to process. But that's OK, 'cause you're paying for it by subsidizing it with your first class postage on other mail. You do realize you subsidize the discounted postage bulk mail pays with your full rate first class postage, right?
I dunno. Sounds more like intelligent design to me.
i think contempt breeds familiarity, and ignorance.
Don't you have better things to do than comment on if people have better things to do than read why Netflix envelopes aren't square?
Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
Now, if this 1.4 million mailers daily idea is to be believed, even $0.0001 saved in printing/scanning/postage comes out to saving over $51,000 annually per hundreth of a cent per mailer. If Netflix decides to spend the extra cent to add padding or a second envelope, that's a loss of over five million dollars to them each year.
In short, your FlixClone can get away with 'better' packaging because it's not having to deal with these ridiculously marginal values. Once and if their subscribers grow to as much as Netflix's current base, they'll either notice how much it's costing them or else cripple themselves financially.
Now, if we make a change to the accounting software to redirect a fraction of that penny left over from rounding operation to a different account we could bring down the evil of Netflicks! Who's with me?
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
So true. I fucking hate sites like that. Whatever happen to plain old HTML?
"Every year the government and big corps find ways to make things a little harder for you. Its not a conspiracy, just every entity on the planet trying to amass power and money at your expense."
Uh, huh. So you're giving away money and power...at your expense then?
The next step in the evolution is the extinction of the Netflix Envelope ...
Once Video-On-Demand (VoD) becomes more common and affordable, services that snail mail DVDs will seem quaint...
Ron
Weight (within reason) shouldn't be an issue. You can send letters up to 1 ounce, for base USPS postage. Since a DVD only weighs half that, and they only send one at a time, they could have very heavy envelopes before it would cost them any extra money. I think it would be a good idea for them to send 2 at a time (and in an envelope 2/3rds as large) which would make this more of an issue, but that's another story.
DVDs will occasionally break in the mail, no matter what. An envelope would have to be incredibly strong to even slightly reduce the incidents of damage. So, it's the DVD's own strength and flexibility that keeps them from breaking, which has NOTHING to do with the mailer. The envelope is just scratch-protection...
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Once Video-On-Demand (VoD) becomes more common and affordable, services that snail mail DVDs will seem quaint...
Netflix agrees which is why they are partnering with TiVO to do VOD.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Must be a slow news day...
the summary already says it all. here's the direct link to the gallery: http://money.cnn.com/popups/2006/biz2/netflix/fram eset.exclude.html
HD Trailers
The referenced article is very interesting and I often wonder about the process that goes into such things or what seems to be a lack of process. One thing that has me wondering is the rack managment of some servers. You have companies like HP that in the past has made some great contributions to technology with a wide variety of electronics, test equipment, and computing with both hardware and software. All that being said, HP has some of the strangest contraptions for server wire management. A few years ago, they had this setup with these retractable cables that could probably sever your fingers if they let loose (like those retractable keychains) connected to what looked like a small cargo net with about 6 sets of velco straps, the contraption even had numbers so you knew where to attach what as you were fighting with the velco glob. You put your wires in that thing if you could. They eventually moved over to the swinging metal rack and after several years of revisions, they finally have something reasonable. For a company that was one of the most respected engineering companies in the world, you'd think they could make better progress with wire management and rack slider setups then what they have offered up to this point.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
I vote we change poster's name from Anonymous Coward to Federal Whistleblower.
Take off every 'SIG'!!
YES! Yes, we realize that. We do. We really do. It's okay. We all totally realize it. And we're grateful. Did we say we're grateful? We are. Okay. Now. Just put down the rifle...
You do realize you subsidize the discounted postage bulk mail pays with your full rate first class postage, right?
i on
Funny, I was always told the exact opposite. Namely, that the discounts given to presorted bulk mail were actually less than the labor saved by the Post Office as a result of the presorting, thus most "junk mail" and stuff shipped at the bulk rate is more profitable, on a piece-by-piece basis, than individual First Class letters. So that really it's all those catalogs and crap that are subsidizing the Post Office's ability to deliver your letter to Grandma for 39 cents.
If what you're saying is true, and it's the other way around, then what I've basically been told my entire life about the Post Office is wrong.
I just ran some quick Google searches and I'm not the only person under this impression:
"Most people are unaware that bulk mailing is highly profitable for the U.S. Postal Service and it subsidizes first class mail." http://www.lawmall.com/abuse/abe-mail.html
"Bulk mail thereby subsidizes low cost stamps for letter, magazine, and book mailing." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_mail#Legislat
&c., etc.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I'm glad that we are past the 80s bit where we were constantly being bombarded with the 'Housewife is a career' garbage. No doubt that pre 1950s being a house wife was a full time job, but in this day and age with no wax floors, vacume cleaners, boxed cakes, pre-sliced bread, dish washers, washing machines, dryers, and all the other modern convinences we have, being a housewife is about an 8 hour a week job.
Even with all of these modern convienences, I still know a few 'housewifes' that as soon as dad comes home from work, they drop the kids in his lap, and take 'me time' because plunking their kids down in front of the TV is SOOOOOO much work.
Kirby
That explains why so many of my DVDs are broken.
If you ask me the current design is excellent. The real achilles heal in the whole operation is on the fold/seal. That thing tears off about 1/3rd of the time and I have to just tape the dumb thing shut. They used to be made much heartier, and I would never have a torn envelope. Maybe they could just reinforce that one fold somehow.
That sounds right, but I think bulk mail is still bad for us. I would rather spend a dollar apiece on the 2 or 3 letters I send out each year than spend time almost every day wading through junk mail.
Foam protects from crushing, which is not a problem. DVDs need protection from bending.
If cost were not a concern, sheets of carbon fiber or steel would work great. Perhaps use an aluminum rectangle with a circle cut out of the middle.
Since cost is a concern, a better idea would be a multi-disk discount. A pair of disks is less likely to get bent. Sure, you lose both on rare occasions, but shipping pairs might still be a win.
- It is a square letter
- ...
- The length divided by height is less than 1.3 or more than 2.5 (calculate this below)
Considering that, for a square, length/height = 1 < 1.3, why did they put the first condition in? It's already included into the more general last condition.> Only a pointless flame war can guide me through this conundrum.
:-)
Oh for crying out loud -- why is parent moderated as "flamebait"?
The post is clearly tongue-in-cheek, and intended to be funny. "Flamebait refers to comments whose sole purpose is to insult and enrage." (emphasis added) At worst, parent is offtopic.
Now, of course, this comment is clearly offtopic.
Until they find a way to keep my kids from grabbing them out of the mail and losing 'em.
You're supposed to be able to send the DVD back in the same envelope as another one, but you have to report the DVD as "lost".
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
The rule in the food business was to mark up your biggest volume item the most -- for us (University concessions) that was coffee. That would suggest the USPS marks up bulk mail (or business mail) the most.
I come here for the love
It was moderated flamebait because the parent (now grandparent) used the term 'flame war' in the post. It actually is more of a troll than flamebait.
You are seeing the result of "engineering" something to just barely meet requirements, to save a penny or two.
$0.01 (or $0.02) x about a bajillion mailings = about $10 or $20 majillion in savings for Netflix.
See, they have lots of customers, with many mailings per customer, so a tiny per-envelope savings means a lot to them.
I got more rhymes than Jamaica got Mangoes.
I accept this, because I hate video stores, and because paying only $1.40 (my average cost per DVD) allows me to see a lot more DVDs than I could afford otherwise. But it's hardly "perfect".
How about Gamefly mailers? I've yet to see one of those get to me with damage, but I'm curious from the perspective of someone from the inside.
How about Gamefly mailers? I've yet to see one of those get to me with damage, but I'm curious from the perspective of someone from the inside.
Haven't noticed any, so can't comment. The NetFlix go thru my location in the thousands every day.
I wonder how big the netflix inventory is, not only do they have to have every movie out there, but they have to have multiple copies of it too.. thats a lot of DVD. Imagine financeing that? Did they buy them wholesale?
The moderator was right. I was off topic, but if you are spending more than 8 ours a week cleaning a smallish house, and it is not emaculate, you are doing something seriously wrong.
I understand how that can happen. When I met my wife, she would spend all day doing 3 loads of laundry. She would spend so much time organizing the laundry that she would never get it washed. Once I conviced her to just go ahead and put the clothes in the washer, a full days work turned into 15 minutes. If you miss a white sock because you didn't spend hours sorting, you can just throw it in next time.
The fact that she created work where none was necessary did not make a few loads of laundry a 'real job'. If you are spending as much time as you say, and you live as a slob, you are definitly creating work where it is not necessary.
I refuse to support the RIAA or the MPAA.
As such it is my RIGHT and my DUTY to pirate and SELL as many movies as possible.
Proceeds go to LINUX, a Free Open Source Opetating System that is worthy of your atttentoon!
You can see elsewhere in the comments to this story that the floppy bit is there to PREVENT A POSTAL SERVICE SURCHARGE!
Blame your boss.
-Peter
So you return three movies at once? That means either you wait until you've watched all three movies before you return any of them — in which case you're cheating yourself, because Netflix could be replacing the first movie while you're watching the other two. Or else you watch all three movies in one sitting and return them all in the next mail — in which case you need to get a life!
Now that problem is up to Netflix & TiVO, TiVO's are not Microsoft creations so there is no reason to think they would go with Windows Media.
That said, probably there will be some DRM - it will be interesting to see what form that takes.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Good for us??? Please... do not try to speak for me...
I would GLADLY pay $1.00 for every first class letter I had to send if the USPS would just stop delivering all that bulk mail crap to me.
I never read it. The first thing I do is go through the mail in one pass...
Notice that both my roommate and I have an equal agreement... If it doesn't look like a bank statement or other official source that we deal with regularly then it gets thrown away. Period.
It's just a total waste to send this crap to me and personally I think it should be illegal. I think it destroys the environment. I think it unnecessarily overburdens the USPS carriers. I know it annoys it me. I believe it invades my privacy by harassing me directly. I think most of the crap is merely scams that don't offer any decent value to the recipient and usually is for products that are misrepresented. In short it's the worst kind of advertising.
It simply is NOT "good for us."
I will never live for sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
NetFlix doesn't do porn. I created a website using the domain name NotNetFlix.com to capitalize on this fact. NetFlix did not appreciate this and $2,500 in attorney fees later I finally relented and had to turn the domain over to them. I sure miss that name as my new one generates only half the traffic: RentXReview.com.
I can tell you the Netflix envelopes are far from perfect - they often jam in the Post Office sorting machines, tearing open, breaking the DVD inside, and causing several following peices of mail to get chewed up. The barcodes on them when they are going back to Netflix are also misprinted, causing them to be sorted to the wrong destination, and often to multiple different (wrong) destinations. The Blockbuster ones aren't that great either, but they at least have the right barcodes.
I can tell you this - if you ever mail a CD or a DVD, I would strongly recommend mailing it in a strong plastic hardcase (save one an AOL CD came in) if you want it to get where its going in one peice. Dont try to mail it as a letter in an envelope - it is a parcel. And be sure to tape the box shut securely with packing tape - you dont need it popping open somewhere, and the case going to the desitnation with nothing inside, and the disc ending up loose (and scratched) in the dead-letter dept. I've seen ones that people have mailed in a cheap thin plastic case, with just a small peice of scotch tape - most of them do just that.
The key is to look at all mail from the top right first, where the stamp/imprint is. If it says 'PRSRT STD', 'STANDARD', or 'STD' that means it was mailed at Standard instead of Frist Class rates. Standard rate is the new term for bulk mail. In this house, all Standard rated mail gets torn in half and put into the paper recycling bin. If it is from a credit card company, it hits the shreader first.
The reason for this is that Standard rate can pretty much be only used to send you advertising. No bills, payments, or invoices are allowed to be sent via Standard rate. See the flow chart at http://pe.usps.com/text/standardeligibility/ .
In addition use junkbuster's webpage to generate an opt out letter for all DMA member companies: http://www.junkbusters.com/declare.html .
Don't catch a STD from your mail! Throw it out!
d
Just be careful... I had one the other day that would have normally gone in "straight to trash" pile, but I was bored so I opened. There was a $666 check in side (seriously). I wasn't expecting it, so I would never have know it was gone.