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Microsoft's IE7 Search Box Bugs Google
tessaiga writes "The New York Times reports that Google is crying foul over a new IE7 search box feature that defaults to MSN Search. Although the feature can be modified to use Google or other search engines, Google asserts that "The best way to handle the search box [...] would be to give users a choice when they first start up Internet Explorer 7." Google goes on to assert that the move "limits consumer choice and is reminiscent of the tactics that got Microsoft into antitrust trouble in the late 1990s". I notice that in my version of Firefox the search box defaults to Google, and that the pulldown menu of pre-entered options doesn't even include MSN Search, but Google seems to have been oddly quiet on that front for the many years prior to IE7 that Firefox has made this feature available."
The main difference between the IE7 search box and the Firefox and Opera search boxes is that the IE7 search box comes preloaded with only one search provider: MSN. Firefox and Opera both include a half-dozen or so providers when you install them. (You can add additional search engines in all three.)
Well, that, and Firefox doesn't have a setting for a "default" provider. It "defaults" to the last one you used, which can be helpful if, say, you use Google most of the time and want to do a bunch of IMDB lookups in a row. (Yes, you can add IMDB as a search engine.) Of course, if you've never used the box before, it starts out with Google...
Of course, you can always read what the IE team has to say about searching...
Google didn't complain much when Safari came out with a Google-only search box.
Microsoft didn't cry foul about that either, I think Google is wrong (or not very right, anyway) in this case.
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From the slashdot summary:
Google's concern and complaint is Microsoft is once again leveraging their monopoly in their Windows domain to control unfairly users' choice to some other market or product, in this case, search engine choice. It could be problematic, maybe even legally, that Microsoft sets the default search to theirs, even though they offer other choices. I agree with Google's complaint and would like to see Microsoft forced to make choosing the search engine part of the setup procedure.
As for the slashdot summary observation Firefox hasn't done the same, Firefox has no monopoly and is therefor in no way obligated in the same way as Microsoft to change the default behavior.
As an aside, and a question, has anyone else had trouble with IE7? In keeping with "knowing your enemy", I installed IE7, and it crashes consistently every time I open up a new page in a new tab. Anyone else seen this?
Firefox isn't a Google product, and isn't subject to the same sorts of antitrust restrictions that IE is. Various combinations that rhyme with 'Clucking Nidiot' were going through my head when I read the blurb.
It was a joke! When you give me that look it was a joke.
Microsoft is a convicted monopolist, and thus is subject to a different set of rules. If Firefox had 90% of the browser market then things might be different. As it stands, however, Firefox can include or exclude whoever they want. Microsoft may not be able to.
At least, that's the excuse Google can use. Frankly I'm inclined to think it's "just business".
End of lesson. You may press the button.
I'd hardly call this an antitrust issue. A microsoft product is referrign to a microsoft search engine. It's very easy to change it to use a different one. It's when Microsoft makes it impossible to use anything _BUT_ their own products that there's serious problems. Case in point is the inability to 'remove' IE at all, and Microsoft's assertion that it was impossible to do so (then later making versions of windows that have IE removed).
I think Google is starting to feel the pinch. They've tweaked the lumbering behemoth that is Microsoft, and Billy boy is fighting back the best way he can. Back room deals, silent contracts, and subtle manipulation of the market. Google should be more worried about Microsoft pushing their products into the colleges and large businesses, not what the default search engine on one box in one browser is.
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Nice writeup submitter as you presented an excellent balanced example rather than the often one-sided point of view.
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Google should auto-magically have a script that makes it the default search engine when an Internet Explorer user visits http://www.google.com/ to make a search.
I notice that in my version of Firefox the search box defaults to Google
- Google doesn't make firefox
- Google isn't a monopoly
- Firefox isn't a monopoly
Your comment is irrelevant. I hear that Adobe Premier doesn't let you search on Alta-Vista too.
Microsoft is releasing a browser which you DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE (it won't be tied into the system as IE currently is), and it defaults to their search engine. Makes sense, if you ask me. What's wrong about this? If it was to give you a choice upon startup of MSN, Google, or Yahoo, they wouldn't get as many search queries. Have they done anything wrong? No. It's not even unethical.
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I tried changing the default search to google and it would take.
Is this because it's beta? I didn't like the thinbg anyhow. And too,
a new home page wouldn't take either not even about:blank
I agree that Google is being a bit hypcritical here. It makes business sense that they don't want MSN to be the default, especially since Microsoft is also muscling into the search engine wars, but I think their case would have been stronger if they'd included MSN search in their search options on installation. Then again, part of me is wondering if that might not have caused legal problems in and of itself. "Appropriation of competiting technology and repackaging under a different brand name" or somesuch.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
It's not Googles job to cry foul over things that benefit them. Especially, when it is a third party software.
Complaining about Google being default in Firefox is Microsofts job (or Yahoo or someone else). However, if Microsoft had complained about that they would have _had_ to make it optional in IE7 as well. So, Microsoft kept quiet about that.
If Google had complained about them being the default in FireFox then they would have been on the moral high ground when complaining about IE7. But they wouldn't be in a much better position to convince Microsoft though.
The Internet is full. Go Away!!!
Exactly. The last thing I want when I install a new piece of software is it asking me a bunch of silly questions like this. I like the FF way: A box that lets me search, it show where it is searching (the big G), and it has an entry for "Add more."
Microsoft should be free to choose whatever default they want and not add anyone else by default.
"I notice that in my version of Firefox the search box defaults to Google, and that the pulldown menu of pre-entered options doesn't even include MSN Search"
it only has 2 web search engines, the rest are specialized (ebay, answers.com, etc) but it DOES include an "Add Engines" link. the page it leads you to does have MSN search
-- lol pwned
The most important difference here is that Google is not a subsidiary or owned by the Mozilla Foundation whereas MSN is owned by Microsoft.
Firefox and Google are two companies that are (to my knowledge) completely independent. Firefox can choose whatever search engine they want to set to default. On top of that, you don't pay for Firefox where you kind of paid for IE7.
The author's analogy of: Is, in my opinion, a poor one. A Mozilla based browser is free for almost any operating system while IE7 is free
To recap, Microsoft putting Microsoft as the default search engine is bad because they are using their operating system and browser market dominance to corner the search engine market. They have no right to do that. Where would we make them stop? It's kind of a slippery slope. It's fine that they've put unlimited funds toward web search and the console market--it's not fine if their forcing or even defaulting their users to themselves in other markets.
My work here is dung.
OTOH, I would much prefer it DOES NOT search for anything. For example, if I type in stuff like 'wwwww.yahoo.com', that STUPID IE just search for it and with the address bar ending up modifed as "http://sea.search.msn.com/dnserror.aspx?FORM=DNSA S&q=wwwww.yahoo.com". Now I need to go delete those characters to modify the original URL!!
Ernest
Firefox, Opera and Safari together have at a minimum 10% of the market, and by some estimates probably have at least more realistically around 15-20% now. Have you forgotten that Microsoft ceded the entire Mac browser market to Apple? Every desktop Linux installation is in a similar situation.
Yes, that's such a monopoly. There's no viable competition since the competition only has a low double digit marketshare as opposed to 50% or more!
Why aren't you bitching about Google trying to buy its way into the same monopoly that you allege Microsoft to have? Don't you think it's "bad for competition" that people are "forced" to use Google by default in Firefox and Opera? Oh the horror, people might have to learn how to switch their default search engine!
Click the magnifying glass, click "Find search providers." You get a list of providers, including Google and Wikipedia.
Google needs to buck up and become a man, whining doesn't get you much of anywhere. Just like Firefox and Opera you can change your default search engine.
I also thought it was pretty interesting that IE supports OpenSearch, an open standard to add search engines (unlike FF and Opera).
" Google goes on to assert that the move "limits consumer choice and is reminiscent of the tactics that got Microsoft into antitrust trouble in the late 1990s".
I like Google, but this does not limit consumer choice. IE7 doesn't *block* google's web site. You can add Google search to their search box....
Antitrust would be if when you go to google.com or altavista.com and what not and it automatically goes to MSN.com. And if you use Google in the search box it doesn't limit the searches. Sorry. Google's wrong this one. And they should be careful now. Backwards steps can cause a giant to fall.
That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
It's the default browser in Vista, come '07 your statement is wrong. And that's the big problem here. IE is bundled with an OS (Vista) and Firefox is not. If IE was a completely seperate application then I'd have no problem here, but with Vista that is not the case.
On another note, Google doesn't own Safari or Firefox, so they can pick whatever default search they want.
Go here for teh [sic] funny.
IE7 and MSN Search are both developed by a convicted monopolist. Integrating them together smacks of a(nother) Sherman Antitrust violation. Firefox is NOT developed by Google (not a convicted monopolist) and therefor cannot be held to the same standard. If Firefox defaults to Google, it is because the Firefox development team concluded it is a better search engine. FF appears to be motivated primarily by technology, not profit and market share greed. However, it would further appear (and history shows, i.e., Apache v. IIS), technology, not bundling, ultimately drives market share. Furthermore, in regards to Safari having only a single search engine available as an integrated feature, last I cheched Firefox still was a distant second in terms of browser user base while Safari user base barely registers on the radar screen.
The initial IE7 beta actually had a 5 or 6 useful search providers- including Google. I'm guessing suits hadn't gotten to it at that time. A couple betas later it only had MSN.
That's not quite what the problem is either.
The real problem is that it's illegal to abuse monopoly powers by using your (otherwise legal) monopoly in one industry to force users to adopt your inferior product in another industry.
For a concrete example - if you have a monopoly in Operating Systems, you can NOT use your operating system monopoly to force users to use your online-store or your media-player or your single-sign-on-service. Google's arguing that you are also not allowed to force people to use your search engine either -- and that users are so unlikely to switch default browsers that making this the default in IE is effectively forcing the users.
Firefox does not have this problem, because it is not illegally abusing any monopoly powers.
My Mandriva build of FireFox 1.0.6 (which has patches from 1.0.7) has Google, eBay, Amazon, Dictionary, Creative Commons and Yahoo search engines.
Here's a little trick for Google users who are going to use IE7: go to the address bar and type "www.google.com." Voila!
This is so much pissing in the wind. Google needs to get over itself and Microsoft needs a good, swift kick in the browser. Who cares! Use the browser you want to use and use the search engine you want to use! Until browsers start blocking particular search URLs of search engines refuse to run in certain browsers, there is... say it with me now... nothing to see here!
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Don't believe for one moment that Google's motives are pure and "do no evil".
Not to make a judgment about Google specifically, but it's entirely possible to have impure motives without doing evil to get there. Motives are about ends, doing evil is about means. (Of course, there are certain ends that you can only achieve by doing evil -- like deciding to f*ing kill someone.)
One's motive could be to make huge piles of cash, but one could go about it ethically. One could even try to compete on both technical and PR levels.
How do I get rid of the search box entirely?
Assuming this isn't a rhetorical question:
Right-click on the toolbar. Click "Customize." Drag the search box off of the toolbar. Enjoy your search-box-free surfing.
I got real pissed off at GM Cars for including a GM Radio in their GM Car.
Sure, I know I can change it to some other brand like Clarion or Bose. But damnit, the default installation was a GM Radio and that's just not right.
Clarion and Bose should file a complaint, because clearly GM Radios have a monopoly on GM cars and it's anti-competitive for GM Cars.
-David
Search engines pay money to the browser makers to get their search engines in there anyway.
Um, care to back that up?
The two biggest browsers right now are IE and Firefox; Microsoft is basically promoting their own product here (MSN Search) so I doubt they're "paying" anything directly, so really your point seems to suggest that Google has paid Firefox to be the default search. That's a pretty strong statement to be making without any evidence.
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"We stongly believe they are abusing their power in the market place." said Google's legal representative, "We assert that they should have links to our sites prominantly placed near, or even replacing, their branding. Also, we believe the advertising on those sites should be provided by us, that the anti-phishing feature in Vista should mark all Microsoft sites as suspect, and that Windows Defender should uninstall Internet Explorer and Windows Update should install Firefox."
Can you truly blame MS, though, for making their search engine the default one in THEIR browser? It's the same as Windows only coming with IE, WMP, and the assortment of other M$-made products.
It's simply smart business practice to do this. Would you openly give your users a reason not to use your product? No, I'd think not. That'd be like Windows coming with a folder on the desktop, full of links to various Linux distributions.
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"Although the feature can be modified to use Google or other search engine"
It can be modified! Not through some obscure registry setting but using a regular configuration screen?
How can this even be considered foulplay?
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Microsoft owns their browser and is using it to leverage their other property--MSN search, or whatever they're calling it these days. Google does NOT own Firefox--Firefox is a third party. Microsoft is using one hand of their monopolistic giant to put money into their other hand. Google is not, and as such, as a valid point, IMHO.
That said, of COURSE it works to their [Google's] advantage that Firefox behaves in such a manner. However, that doesn't mean that the Mozilla Foundation isn't free to switch their default over to MSN if their user base overwhelmingly requests it.
-buf
But, if you load up Firefox, which they heavily support and fund, MSN isn't even an option unless you add them in.
Given that Mozilla has long positioned itself as an alternative to Microsoft, at least in the browser space, and that many developers and early adopters are strongly anti-Microsoft, would you really expect them -- Google or no Google -- to include a Microsoft search as a default option? It might seem logical, but as you may have noticed, people can get surprisingly emotional about their software.
Amazon(Which happens to be powered by Google),
Not last I looked. It returns Amazon.com product listings. A9 gets its web results from Google (last I looked, anyway), but Amazon's internal search results are, well, internal.
No, Google does NOT want to compete on technical merits
You keep saying this, but you don't back it up with any support. Claiming that Google doesn't want to compete on technical merits because this complaint isn't technical in nature is like saying that Microsoft doesn't care about the server market because the X-Box team isn't working on IIS. The two are not mutually exclusive, however much you want to portray them that way.
I installed one of the first IE7 beta releases. I was surprised that the new search box includes a drop down that lets you change to AOL, Yahoo, Google, or Ask Jeeves (but defaults to MSN). I selected Google once, it worked as expected, but the next time I launched IE, it was set back to MSN Search. Without digging much further, I figured that was just how it had to be... Microsoft was giving space to the others, but still asserting its control.
Then when I browsed to the Google homepage, I got a little DHTML pop-up window that said something to the effect of "hey, you're using IE7, wanna change the default for your searchbox to use Google?" Perfect, I had wanted to do that, and I guess they figured out how. So I press OK. I restarted IE7, and sure enough, my default search was now Google. Thanks Google.
Except, a funny thing happened when I let Google change my settings. That list of alternate search engines that Microsoft had provided, for the user's benefit, was now replaced by a single choice: Google. Yes, I wanted Google as my default, but I never said I wanted Google as the only choice! That's annoying.
That is when I noticed the Search Settings... menu option at the bottom of the search bar's menu. It includes a Restore Defaults... button, which does exactly that. I clicked it, and all of my search engines were back (and MSN Search was back to being the default). From that Search Settings screen, I selected Google, and clicked Set Default. Now Google was my default search engine, AND I still had the choice of selecting a different engine from the drop down. That is what I wanted. Why didn't Google give me what I wanted?