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Science Ability Down in U.S. High Schools

An anonymous reader writes "According to the International Herald Tribune, a nationwide test has shown that the ability to reason scientifically is less well developed across the board for high schoolers. Fourth graders, ironically, are actually better at reasoning in the sciences now than they were ten years ago." From the article: "The drop in science proficiency appeared to reflect a broader trend in which some academic gains made in elementary grades and middle school have been seen to fade during the high school years. The science results come from the National Assessment of Educational Progress, a comprehensive examination administered in early 2005 by the Department of Education to more than 300,000 students in all 50 states, the District of Columbia, and on U.S. military bases around the world."

85 of 650 comments (clear)

  1. That's what happens by 0racle · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's what happens when the most important part of your 'academic' life is the Football team.

    --
    "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
    1. Re:That's what happens by grub · · Score: 2, Insightful


      ... and outside of the Football team you learn about Intelligent Design in the Science class..

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    2. Re:That's what happens by mctk · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Well, football has always been (and will always be?) the most important part of some students' academic life for years. But I don't think that's the main issue. To me, it's a question of two things: student work ethic and curriculum.

      We Americans are very good at pointing at others and coming up with excuses. But I'll tell you, the Asian students I have aren't good at math because they're Asian, they're good because they (gasp!) actually do homework. That's an investment most students don't care to make.

      And why should they? Our curriculum presents science as a static, lifeless adventure. It's a collection of worksheets and vocab lists. The teacher has all of the answers; it's simply a question of memorizing the correct response.

      We need a curriculum that supports inquiry and thought. We need to give students the responsibility of choice and experimentation. We need to get them generating real results and using those in real world situations. Reasoning and problem solving skills do not come without authentic practice.

      --
      Paul Grosfield - the quicker picker upper.
    3. Re:That's what happens by gardyloo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Partially agreed with this. *HOWEVER*...

            At my high school (ten years ago, admittedly), the people most into the drugs and alcohol (openly to their fellow students, anyway) were among the smartest people in the school. That's not to disparage the other students, but it seemed to me that among the stoners and drinkers were some very smart (and very bored) kids. Very many of these students are now remarkably successful (by any metric) and happy, several with Ph.D.s.
            It seems that, at least *sometimes*, students into the drugs and alcohol are simply doing that because they're bored with the curriculum (which is, oftentimes, not challenging enough). There are exceptions to this and every human situation, but to blame drugs and alcohol might be misdirected.

    4. Re:That's what happens by Xzzy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A lot of my lack of desire to do well in math/science was caused by a complete lack of understanding why any of it mattered, and how I could apply it to things I wanted to do. In general, if I couldn't make use of information I generally got bored with learning it.

      Literary classes were a bit easier because it was tied closely to liesure, I liked reading, so it was easy to to do well at it.

      Since finishing high school (and dropping out of college), I've gone back and self-taught myself a lot of the math skills I neglected because it is used in a number of my hobbies. It's a lot more interesting when it's a prereq for building a trebuchet or hacking on a 3D engine. ;)

    5. Re:That's what happens by Senjutsu · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We Americans are very good at pointing at others and coming up with excuses. But I'll tell you, the Asian students I have aren't good at math because they're Asian, they're good because they (gasp!) actually do homework. That's an investment most students don't care to make.

      And why should they? Our curriculum presents science as a static, lifeless adventure. It's a collection of worksheets and vocab lists. The teacher has all of the answers; it's simply a question of memorizing the correct response.


      A better question might be: why do Asian students make that investment, given that their education systems generally focuses on rote memorization and the ability to lifelessly regurgitate solutions on command? If you want to create a curriculum that supports inquiry and free though, don't look to East Asia for inspiration.

    6. Re:That's what happens by Ithika · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But, while claiming to be scientific, these dogmatists are little more than stubborn atheists.

      Ah, so now people who don't believe in All-Saving Sky Daddies are the stubborn ones? The ones who don't believe in things for which there is no evidence and no way of attaining evidence. Those ones?

      Ha, wow. That's ... wow.

    7. Re:That's what happens by EdwinBoyd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Perhaps because if you're able to "regurgitate" solutions you can concentrate on the problem at hand as opposed to making sure your figures are correct?
      While it's critical that a student understands the concept of multiplication it is just as important to memorize their times tables.
      Calculating in your head that 6x7=42 wastes time and risks error and the only way to 'know' that 6x7=42 is to drill, repeatedly.

    8. Re:That's what happens by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 2, Informative
      That's what happens when the most important part of your 'academic' life is the Football team.

      Is this some ironic example of the lack of science reasoning or something?

      You don't like sports, fine, I get that. But to think that somehow liking sports is inversely proportional to academic ability is just stupid. In fact, I argue that sports are part of being a well-rounded individual.

      The truth is that kids are doing worse because parents are worse. They're too afraid to discipline their kids and insist they work hard. They're too afraid to take away privileges if their kids screw up. They're to afraid to be seen as "controlling bastards" by their spoiled, screaming children. They want to be their buddies instead of parents.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    9. Re:That's what happens by sinclair44 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      We need a curriculum that supports inquiry and thought. We need to give students the responsibility of choice and experimentation. We need to get them generating real results and using those in real world situations. Reasoning and problem solving skills do not come without authentic practice.
      That is why my AP Physics class is so awesome. We have a great teacher who actually understands that. Calculators are allowed on nearly every test, and he realizes that we will put all the formulae for the chapter into our calculators' memories (and he will even show you how to do it if you ask). But that's really very little help if you don't have the problem solving skills to apply what you know, and often make a small leap of intuition -- that's what the class is mainly about: not memorizing a bunch of physics formlae, but learning how to apply what you know and put it together in new and sometimes strange ways to solve a problem.
      --
      Omnes stulti sunt.
    10. Re:That's what happens by hackwrench · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What always comes to mind when I hear of "Asian performance" is the posting of scores so that students can have the fun of competing against each other. The United States is too afraid of its students getting an inferiority complex when it comes to doing well academically, which is the explanation given for why they don't do it, but that goes out the window when it comes to Sports. The high school sports scores even get published in the local paper if that don't beat all!

    11. Re:That's what happens by NeoSkandranon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Interesting point, but I think it depends on the demographic. I saw myself in HS several people (who at this point have grown out of their drug abuse issues and are successful) who fit your description.

      However i also saw plenty of kids who weren't academically inclined at all (through both apathy and ability, or maybe the former resulted from the latter) that did nothing but drink and smoke for four years or more. I pin that on plain vanilla shallowness, or hedonism or whatever you care to call it.

      It seems also like there was a division between the stoners and binge drinkers. I do know a few very intelligent people who, if not qualifying as stoners, smoked pretty regularly back then. Try as I may I can't think of ANY kids that spent the weekends blind drunk that have gone on to be productive. I realize it's just an anecote, but it's an interesting thought.

      --
      If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
    12. Re:That's what happens by iminplaya · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We need a curriculum that supports inquiry and thought.

      That would just make things like indoctrination and brainwashing more difficult. In fact, the whole idea sounds subversive. You're not a subversive, are you? How do you expect the government to operate with absolute authority if people start asking questions, instead of blindly following their lead? Ignorance is power. An educated public is difficult, if not impossible to control. This decline is no accident.

      --
      What?
    13. Re:That's what happens by Potor · · Score: 5, Interesting
      No, that's what happens when your gov't realises it must decide between having an intelligent, capable population, and a population that is easily lead.

      I am not sure that there is an actual correlation between decreasing scientific ability and the unquestioning surrender of civil rights, but since both are occuring simultaneously in the USA, well, perhaps this needs to be studied.

    14. Re:That's what happens by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I'm not saying that a parent has to be a buddy, but if a parent can't convince their child to do something by presenting a superior argument as to why they should do that thing, maybe their position on the issue needs to be reconsidered.

      You can't possibly have kids of your own.

      You seem to think that kids are just little logical Spocks that require only a bit of reasonable argument. Sheesh. Kids typically do NOT see the long view.

      You don't have to go to lessons, but I'd reccomend you get some knowledge or you'll be bored all your life." is infinitely better than the one who says "Go to lessons or I'll take away your phone/car/right to have fun.".

      Yeah, and what if your child says to you (in a snide voice), "I DON'T WANT TO LEARN TO READ. I hate reading, it's too hard. I won't be bored, there are way more fun things to do than read."

      Maybe you'll say to your kids, "That's OK, junior, I won't force you to learn to read. It's all up to you." In that case, you're one of those parents I'm referring to in my sig.

      On the other hand, I tell MY kid, "Yes, you WILL learn to read, and you'll do it, even though it's hard. You don't understand it now, but almost everything else hinges on being a good reader."

      And in fact, that's almost the exact conversation I've had with my kid, so it's not theoretical to me. I fully support explaining why something is good for kids, and in fact I do that. But if the explanation doesn't work, they STILL have to do it, because I'm the parent. I'm not perfect, but I'm going to damn well do my best to make sure they get a well-rounded education so that when they're adults, they'll have had a wide enough sample of everything to decide what to do on their own.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    15. Re:That's what happens by gilroy · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Blockquoth the poster:

      Our education system is designed to produce slaves, not scientists.


      Our educational system is actually designed to produce reliable, highly-paid assembly line workers.

      The problem is, there are no highly-paid assembly line jobs any more. But at the dawn of the 20th century, when this system was congealing into what it has become, it was actually fairly well-suited to the goals of society... and it did a decent job getting kids in shape for what people thought they would be doing.

      The world is different and our conception of education hasn't caught up to it. Read "Fast Times at Fairmont High" for Vernor Vinge's take on what's going to be needed. It seems pretty likely, at least in broad outline.
    16. Re:That's what happens by wile_e_wonka · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I quite agree. And I have an interesting example to share with regard to some foreign exchange students at my parents' house. I'm a college student, recently graduated from undergrad. I graduated in December and lived with my parents for 8 months between the time I graduated and moved on to graduate school. My parents had two foreign exchange students during that time--one from Germany and one from Brasil. Both of these girls arrived in America the summer before the school year began barely able to speak English, but I watched them walk as Valedictorians in their high school graduation 9 months later. These are girls that were popular and went out on weekends, but right after school they did homework, and that was more important to them than whatever was going to happen that weekend. I helped them with their math homework, and I'll tell you--these girls were not inherantly smarter than most Americans. But on their own free will they worked hard to do well. So, it has always amazed me that, they were able to do better in classes that were tought in English--while they were just learning English themselves--than kids that have been speaking english from a young age.

      I think this says a lot more about Americans than it does about these girls. Americans are so darn lazy!

    17. Re:That's what happens by Lord+Ender · · Score: 2, Interesting

      At my school, the smart kids (who weren't challenged enough with academics) got in to arts (marching band, concert band, choir, show choir, theatre, etc.). Drugs really were for the losers. My school was exceptional and well-known for those programs, though. Were you at one of those schools which closed arts programs in favor of athletics, or were drugs just "popular"?

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    18. Re:That's what happens by 1u3hr · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The number of multiplication problems that can be "instantly" solved by the times tables is such a tiny fraction of the set possible problems, that it's really negligible.

      The number of REAL LIFE math problems that can be solved by times tables is, however, most of them. Maybe you just don't care how much anything costs, how long it takes to go somewhere, etc, but kindergarten arithmetic, applying your times tables, will answer most of those questions. That people are trying to make excuses for not knowing basic arithmetic is an excellent example of the dire state of science education.

    19. Re:That's what happens by siriuskase · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They are so important, they make it into the paper even when the home team loses, and they make it into the paper for every single game. The best you can do in other academics is perhaps the Honor roll.

      It's that time of year again for the nonsensical debate about whether having validictarians and salutatorians and other academic awards is a good idea since it can cause high or low self esteem. This debate never comes up when the top football players are identified and praised in school assemblies and community newspapers. Does someone think smart kids are more at risk for developing a big head?

      --
      If you must moderate, please moderate as irrelevent, not something bad, because I'm sure someone will find this interest
    20. Re:That's what happens by cagle_.25 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Intelligent Design and Creationism play a very small role, if any, in the decline. Even biology teachers who teach some form of creationism (I know two) also make sure that students understand the underlying ideas of evolution. To find the problem, you'll have to look elsewhere.

      Note from TFA, for example, that the issues cited by the article were,

      There was some debate about how to explain the 12th-grade declines. Assistant Secretary of Education Tom Luce said they reflected a national shortage of fully qualified science teachers, especially in poor regions, where physics and chemistry classes are often taught by teachers untrained in those subjects.

      and

      ...the problem is not that universities are failing to train sufficient numbers of science majors or that too few opt for classroom careers, but that about a third of those who accept teaching jobs abandon the profession within five years.

      Speaking as a physics teacher, I fully agree with that assessment. Young teachers who are motivated and talented hit brick walls like "I can't actually afford to buy a house" or "the administration cares more about paperwork than learning." As result, they leave the profession before they ever develop their teaching effectively.

      By contrast, young teachers who stick around for five years or more will often be those whose strengths are paperwork rather than teaching.

      In other words, the bureaucracy functions unconsciously as a filter that weeds out teaching talent and maintains mediocrity.*

      I should note that the article is incomplete, in that it focuses only on teachers -- much of the problem also lies with students and parents. But almost none of the problem can be properly blamed on "Intellgent Design."


      * Since I've been around for 14 years, one might suspect me of being mediocre. I hope that "determined" is a better description...

      --
      Human being (n.): A genetically human, genetically distinct, functioning organism.
  2. I went to a US high school... by St.+Arbirix · · Score: 4, Funny

    but I'm not sure what this article is talking about. :-(

    --
    Direct away from face when opening.
    1. Re:I went to a US high school... by teknomage1 · · Score: 2, Funny

      This article's results are obvious. When Spider-Man went to high school in the 60's he was able to synthesize web fluid in his chemistry lab. What do modern high schoolers make? A fat load of nothing that's what. I say we need more web fluid in schools.

      --
      Stop intellectual property from infringing on me
  3. From the article by Wellington+Grey · · Score: 5, Funny

    The falling average science test scores among high school students, announced Wednesday, appeared certain to increase anxiety about American academic competitiveness and to add new urgency to calls from President George W. Bush

    Yes, if anyone can save science education in the US it's going to be Dubya.

    -Grey

    1. Re:From the article by Wellington+Grey · · Score: 5, Informative

      Why was my comment modded troll? Is it at all suprising that people are less interested in science and teaching when a man like Bush is in charge? This administration expresses active hatred for scientific knowledge. You may be interested to know that I'm an American and a physics teacher, but I work abroad and have no intentions of ever trying to teach in America after I had a friend fired in New York for mentioning the existence of evolution in a class.

      -Grey

    2. Re:From the article by wanerious · · Score: 2, Interesting
      have no intentions of ever trying to teach in America after I had a friend fired in New York for mentioning the existence of evolution in a class.

      Assuming the above is accurate and not hyperbole, it sounds like a slam-dunk case of wrongful termination, even if he had a *bad* lawyer, and your friend might even come through with quite a bit of cash. It's too bad you're accommodating those who would cheapen scientific education here in the US by not fighting their culture of fear.

    3. Re:From the article by jcr · · Score: 2, Funny

      Why was my comment modded troll?

      Let me guess... Because someone with mod points didn't like what you had to say?

      That's /. for you.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    4. Re:From the article by Bogtha · · Score: 3, Funny

      I had a friend fired in New York for mentioning the existence of evolution in a class.

      That wasn't very nice of you!

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    5. Re:From the article by phantomlord · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Is it at all suprising that people are less interested in science and teaching when a man like Bush is in charge?

      I graduated 11 years ago and Bill Clinton didn't inspire me to do anything with science either. The reason why you got modded down, I'm sure, is simply because you just had to throw a Bush attack into something he isn't remotely responsible for. Science and math education have been sliding for years before he even thought about running for President.

      The way science and math are taught these days aren't conducive to learning science and math, much less making kids inspired enough to seriously considering a future with them. More cool stuff in science class, make sure the kids get the basics at an early age in math and then do fun stuff as they get older with it.

      In 6th grade, we spent the whole year working on the biology of whales, learning how an ecosystem worked, etc and that culminated in a weekend fieldtrip for anyone who got a passing grade to the Atlantic Ocean three states away to go on a whale watch. THAT was fun and we all learned a lot that year. The same year, we took a few days and built our own model rockets, launched them and used a protractor with plumb string from a fixed distance to measure how high they went (we didn't even know what trig was yet but we were already having a blast using it to see who's rocket went the highest). We also learned how to develop (black and white) film, made our own prints and did all kinds of great stuff that year without even knowing that we were learning about math and science until we look back on it.

      I guess I'll have to thank Reagan and Bush41 for their inspiring leadership in 1988 instead of the very talented teachers who creatively taught us by making it interesting.

      --
      Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
    6. Re:From the article by tsotha · · Score: 2, Insightful
      ...after I had a friend fired in New York for mentioning the existence of evolution in a class.

      I don't believe you. Do you have some kind of link or documentation to support that assertion? You can barely fire a teacher for committing a felony - there's no way the mere mention of evolution could get you fired in one of the bluest states in America. Bullshit. Your friend certainly left part of the story out, like how he slept with one of his students, or something like that.

      In any event, cirriculum selection is a state and local matter - it really has nothing to do with the feds. The Department of Education mostly gives out grants to teachers colleges, to the extent it does anything at all. Thank you Jimmy Carter.

      I read lots of this kind of garbage on slashdot, but before you scream "theocracy", remember the school system has been in a forty year slide, and it actually was illegal to teach evolution in most states when the US had unchallenged scientific preeminence.

      By the way, if you're interested in learning critical thinking, you couldn't do better than a traditionl Jesuit university.

  4. Remeber by Kortec · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Despite the fact that our universities are filled with foreign nationals, as there simply aren't enough smart Americans to fill them, and as the rest of the world laughs at us for stupid things we do academically (like not adapting to the metric system, or teaching people interesting math or science), we can all take comfort in the fact that No Child Is Left Behind.

    Except for all those poor kids, I guess, but who's counting?

    --
    "My heart is in the work." - Andrew Carnegie
    1. Re:Remeber by njh · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think your speed of light is about 10^7 times to slow.

      $ units
      2438 units, 71 prefixes, 32 nonlinear units

      You have: c
      You want: 45cm/fortnight
                      * 8.0584213e+14

  5. Lazy by Hiro2k · · Score: 4, Informative

    Most high school seniors are lazy and blow off thier senior year. Add to that the fact that most of them don't care about tests that don't affect your grade, and you get those results. In my HS when we were given "extra" tests, a lot of my classmates would skip class or just fill in bubbles.

  6. As a high school senior... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...I think there's a big problem with apathy. Most students just don't care about learning. There's a few of us that take honors/ap classes and go to good universities, but the majority are just going through the motions to get out of high school. I also blame a lack of competitive spirit--it gets beaten out of us so nobody can be made to feel bad, the same reason my school no longer does anything to honor academic excellence like it does for sports.

    The blame really belongs with the parents, of course. My parents are why I worked to get into the computer science program at UCI.

    1. Re:As a high school senior... by Kortec · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, I'd have to agree. In some respects, our cultural trend towards political correctness has really come back to bit us. There's a trend towards mediocrity, as we leave the door open for the unmotivated or unable as long as possible. The result of this is that the students that really could be doing interesting things (weither that happens to be linear algebra, or Chaucer) in their early years are kept in pretty repetative classes, or meaningless requirements, and end up joining the unmotivated masses.

      That's not to say that public schooling need not be regulated -- the recent debacle over intelligent design should be suffiicent evidence of that. It's a difficult problem to administer such a large system as the public schooling of a state -- let alone 50 -- with out administering the very life out of it. The only hope is that most schools end up with a small crew of truely gifted educators, the sort of folks who know when to ignore the rules and when not to, and are actually passionate about their topics, and that makes the experiance slightly bearable.

      --
      "My heart is in the work." - Andrew Carnegie
    2. Re:As a high school senior... by Distinguished+Hero · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In some respects, our cultural trend towards political correctness has really come back to bit us.

      Who would have guessed that suppressing freedom of expression and thought so that "no one would ever get offended" would have any negative side-effects?

      --
      Uttering logically derived and empirically supported truths to the disciples of the orthodox establishment.
    3. Re:As a high school senior... by Distinguished+Hero · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I also blame a lack of competitive spirit--it gets beaten out of us so nobody can be made to feel bad, the same reason my school no longer does anything to honor academic excellence like it does for sports.

      Here's my idea: at the end of every year, hold a public assembly where the bottom 25% of students are called up in front of the entire school and laughed at. Let's call it a "social experiment."

      --
      Uttering logically derived and empirically supported truths to the disciples of the orthodox establishment.
    4. Re:As a high school senior... by tbmcmullen · · Score: 2, Informative

      The fact that I was on "independent study" for many classes all the way through high school, because the school was unwilling to hire more AP teachers seems like a pretty good indicator.

      The funny thing about the school I went to (Dauphin County Technical School, dcts.org) is that the number of special education teachers is almost equal to the number of normal teachers. But the number of AP teachers has been at 2 for many many years.

    5. Re:As a high school senior... by OffTheLip · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As a parent of a rising high school senior with AP calc and Latin on the schedule I agree. Seems like academic performance is considered genetic but the sports participants have to work or their success. My kids, the rising senior and the college junior worked very hard for what they earned. As parents we set standards and provided an environment condusive to learning but the kids did/do the work.

    6. Re:As a high school senior... by CodeBuster · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Only when teachers are accorded the same salary and respect -- and subject to the same rigorous standards -- as lawyers, doctors, and other trained professonals, will your hope be realized.

      Ironically, the teachers are partly to blame for this with their aggressive unionization and staunch opposition to merit or skill based pay in favor of seniority and tenure. The problem is further aggravated by the unions making it nearly impossible to fire any teacher, however incompetent, short of criminal conviction for especially egregious conduct.

  7. Interesting by Wellington+Grey · · Score: 5, Funny

    Michael Padilla, a professor at the University of Georgia who is president of the National Science Teachers Association, said that the problem is not that universities are failing to train sufficient numbers of science majors or that too few opt for classroom careers, but that about a third of those who accept teaching jobs abandon the profession within five years.

    Wow! I've just finished my first year as a teacher. Only four more to go before I'm filled with apathy and burned out on my chosen profession. I can't wait.

    -Grey

    1. Re:Interesting by grapeape · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The biggest problem with Science starts with grade schools. In most schools today the amount of hoops you have to go through to make the class interesting. Over the top safety concerns and budget cuts have really restricted the ability to provide interesting presentations and interactive experimentation. Sometimes "think of the children" tends to result in children that can't think.

      I spoke with my oldest daughters teacher about the experiments they would be doing this year, sadly they cant even make a potato battery or pickle light due to the threat of fire or something goofy. I actually got reprimanded by the teacher last year for showing my daughter some kitchen experiments that she proceeded to bring up in class, since the students were wanting to see them. Now instead of shattering a hot dog with liquid nitrogen kids get to do things like a baking soda submarine...wheeeee! No wonder the students dont care and the teachers are bored out their minds.

    2. Re:Interesting by Wellington+Grey · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I spoke with my oldest daughters teacher about the experiments they would be doing this year, sadly they cant even make a potato battery or pickle light due to the threat of fire or something goofy.

      No kidding! In my school we have a model steam engine that I used several times as a how-does-this-machine-work kind of lesson. I let all the kids (about 12-13yrs) poke at it and try and play with it to make it go. As they had never seen such old technology they had lots of fun trying to figure it out.

      However I got reprimanded by the school for allowing the kids to handle the engine. According to health and safety it can only be used behind a thick safety screen -- incase it explodes or whatever. Now I'll never use it again, because behind the screen it's a boring, lifeless demo.

      -Grey

  8. If your heroes don't have it, you don't need it... by Distinguished+Hero · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Makes sense. After all, science plays no prominent role in hip-hop "culture," sports "culture," or Hollywood "culture." When you have a whole generation which idolizes only members of those three groups, what else should one expect?

    --
    Uttering logically derived and empirically supported truths to the disciples of the orthodox establishment.
  9. The Cause by Crussy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The cause is no child left behind and like action. As someone who is a senior in high school, I've watched as literally half of my science classmates had no business in my level of courses. Parents believe that their children should be able to do the top level no matter what and many times this is not the case. Worse, schools believe if a child accels at one subject then they should be in equal level classes for the rest.

    The effect of this is that students potentials are limited. There are a few people in my classes who know absolutely nothing about the material at hand, and no matter how many times it is presented to them cannot grasp it. This is an honors (we don't have AP) level physics class. They slow the progression of the class, and in doing so limit people like me who grasp the concepts easily. People don't realize how it only takes a few lower people to ruin the atmosphere in a classroom. When parents strive to place their kids in classes above their abilities, they are not just jeopardizing their own child's learning, but the learning of everyone who is brought down by them. No teacher wants to fail a student, and many won't. They instead slow the class to the pace of the slowest kid. This is clearly acceptable in remedial classes, but in an accelerated class it should not happen. There should be a curriculum to follow and if someone is holding back the class, they should be let go.

    Sadly the present state of education in America is to help the remedial students while squashing the advanced students' potentials. No child left behind and naive parents who believe their child is better than everyone else are two of the most detrimental things to the education system today. Schools need to stand up and say no to both of these if they want students to reach their potentials today. Fail a girl who cannot grasp a physics class she doesn't belong in if she cannot handle it. There is no other way to show that some people do not belong in advanced classes, and when they're placed in them ruin the environment.

    1. Re:The Cause by nonother · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As a junior in high school (New Jersey), I entirely concur with your opinion. We have honors, IB, & AP courses and all are filled with students that don't want to be there. In Theory of Knowledge (a required IB course) the first day of school the teacher asked my class why we chose IB. Three students out of thirty (myself included in that three) said something other than my parents made me take it. Parents pushing their kids into classes they ought not to be in, and the school being unable to stop them is the root of the problem. What in society makes parents do this I am not sure, but if it is not fixed this country is absolutely screwed. Next year there are 7 students that wish to take Further Mathematics (post-Calculus course) and Physics C. The school made it considerably difficult in approving these two courses to run, and even now it's not 100%. My school at least has no interest in those above average, because hey - they're already passsing the standarized tests. The system is broken.

    2. Re:The Cause by Ragnarrokk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's an odd coincidence you should mention this, these actions have come to bite me horribly just a few days ago.

      It's the time of year where I do AS level examinations (A British 16/17 year old set of exams) and as they approached I thought about why I was learning an entire years of maths work in a few days, or more importantly, why I had been comatose for the last year in lessons.

      Up to the age of sixteen in the UK schooling is compulsory, and even in a "grammar" (think "allegedly" top 10%) school we can only move as fast as the slowest pupil. This was especially bad in mathematics classes. Last year and the year before we studied simple concepts, some which were new to me and which I was happy to learn, for a while. Repetitive exercises of applying a single formula to about three hundred questions for hours upon end, and I couldn't do it. I found it horrific and painful to my mind, such boring simple waste of time. In the end I learnt to multitask and made my mind focus on something else while my hand roughly filled in the questions on homework excercises.

      Roll on this year, I had lost all passion for school mathematics long ago, but I choose to study it anyway as only A level candidates and above are allowed to take the course. Brilliant I assume. Unfortunately, the work may have gotten harder eventually, but I just slept through lessons. Not because I'm arrogant and could simply pass at a whim, it's just the most hated possible method of learning I have.

      Fast forward in time to mock examinations. What do I get for my maths? Twenty-three percent. Five days intense study of my own textbook and online after school, I get an A in those papers, with the exam about a day away. That was dangerous. I know it's my fault for zoning and not doing any work for such a long period, and not checking my own progress, however, due to tending to all the stupidest people, I did find it painful to continue any sort of work. Before it's suggested, no, school systems only allow one way of working, and it's going to be damn sure to be Their Way.

      In comparison, lets take physics. I love physics as a subject as it teaches the nature of the universe and all other sciences are based on it. To me it represents a set of "Core Truths" if you will. The school also has the most enthusiastic hyperactive physics teacher I have ever seen and this bode well for me and about five other geeks. She let us skip a lot of the course since we already knew it, for example a third of a physics AS course is simple mechanics when, as we're all also doing maths, we could comprehend much more difficult scenarios, and let us do what we wanted, as long as we produce something at the end. She's used the textbook maybe, once, or twice in her lessons as far as I can remember and gives as much variety as possible in teaching methods.

      That's brilliant for a kid like me. A real problem for a lot of intelligent people I believe is simple boredom. The work's easy, so we don't work. We fall behind. We no longer care. We do badly in exams. We think it's unfair. We know it's our fault but we were driven to it.

      The system here does pander to the middle intelligence child with good memory. Memory is all you need to pass a test here, no thinking involved. I guarantee it! It occurs to the point that intelligent children are penalised often for being intelligent and answering questions correctly. Here's a following example based on when my school taught IT:

      I walk into the IT room for a lesson after having been ill for about two weeks, and apparently we have a test. They don't mean much so I take it and I answer as best as I can from general knowledge. One of the questions was, "How does a scanner send an image to a computer?". I ponder for a second and think. In the end I put down something along the lines of "Normally a xenon, or a flurescant lamp is transported underneath the paper to cause contrast which is picked up by CCDs which break down the results into a binary RGB colour scheme that is then digitised and transport

  10. Science in science class? by bhirsch · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Recently, I remembered doing lab experiments in middle school and high school. I remember that if we ever got results that differed from those necessary to support the theory we were experimenting with, we were told we did the experiment wrong and either downgraded or told to redo it.

    Not that we always did the experiments carefully or properly, but it is a little bit ironic to have something like that in a science class. Shoving the popularly accepted theories in our faces was the primary goal and teaching us to think and reason scientifically was a distant second.

  11. Seniors by donaldGuy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yes, but the study was only given to high school seniors..

    I am a high school sophmore and generally I consider myself well versed in most sciences (except more than intermediate physics, but I am taking physics courses next year) and to have rather well developed scientific reasoning ability. I have several friends, however, who are seniors, they are also almost invariably lazy. With this on-set of senioritis and the way curriculum/graduation requirements shake out many of them cop-out and take basic earth sciences, meteorology or anatomy, for example. While these sciences aren't unimportant they are a) semester courses (here at least), b) not given as much importance (and therefore the teachers hired to teach them aren't as good), and c) need less traditional scientific reasoning than the required sciences (biology, chemistry, physics, etc.)

    I am not saying that senioritis (and the thereafter self-incurred lack of reasoning neccesity) is the only cause of this lack of reasoning ability, but I think it may be a major factor. Especially depending when the test was given, I know that once my friends have gotten their college acceptence letters they work just hard enough to meet the requirements for the mid-term grade reports for their college, not to achieve their potential.

    One issue, however, may be my frame of refrence.. I go to a "Math and Science Academy" school-within-a-school magnet program and mosts of my friends do as well. I know that occassionly when my "Magnet Molecular Biology" teacher got bored and lazy (granted he is busy, he just got married last summer and is moving to Poland at the end of this school year, so its partialy a function of a lack of planning time) and gave the class a lab or worksheet from the core biology curriculim I was shocked (and frankly appalled) at how easy and simple they were.

  12. Where the emphasis really is... by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well, it doesn't surprise me a bit. My nephew who is just 10 is obsessed with sports to the point of taping the NFL draft proceedings...several hours worth. Beyond that I have a friend whose daughter was failing math in high-school. She was already an accomplished equestrian and was trying out for the cheerleading squad. The mother actually encouraged her to drop riding in favor of cheerleading. I told her that in the first place there was no olympic medal for cheerleading and in the second place these are both EXTRA-curricular activities. Now to add insult to injury, I was driving on I-40 and saw a very large official road sign proclaiming the the town was the home of what's-her-face American Idol 2005. This sign wasn't small. It was HUGE and I'm sure it cost the taxpayers money. Hell, even people with stars on Hollywood Blvd have to pay for it themselves. And why don't we have big audacious signs proclaiming the home town of Jonas Salk or William Shockley or people who actually accomplish something intelligent?

    The bottom line in this country is it's all about image and popularity. I'm reminded of an episode of the original Connections series where James Burke explains why the British blew a golden opportunity to dominate the new chemical industries because the Germans let people into universities on merit whereas in England you got accepted to a university based on your family background. Nowadays the tables have turned. Merit doesn't get you very far but if you're the star running back on some podunk high-school football team, you get a full scholarship to USC even though you can't even read your own letter of acceptance (that's a "Friday Night Lights" reference, btw). What this translates to is an inflation of the value of a college degree. A bachelor's degree doesn't carry as much weight as it used to when they're given away.

  13. Science education scarcity concept is overblown. by Bamafan77 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Philip Greenspun says it best and I've seen this firsthand. ---
    Why does anyone think science is a good job?
    The average trajectory for a successful scientist is the following:
    1. age 18-22: paying high tuition fees at an undergraduate college
    2. age 22-30: graduate school, possibly with a bit of work, living on a stipend of $1800 per month
    3. age 30-35: working as a post-doc for $30,000 to $35,000 per year
    4. age 36-43: professor at a good, but not great, university for $65,000 per year
    5. age 44: with young children at home (if lucky), fired by the university ("denied tenure" is the
    more polite term for the folks that universities discard), begins searching for a job in a market
    where employers primarily wish to hire folks in their early 30s

    This is how things are likely to go for the smartest kid you sat next to in college. He got into Stanford for graduate school. He got a postdoc at MIT. His experiment worked out and he was therefore fortunate to land a job at University of California, Irvine. But at the end of the day, his research wasn't quite interesting or topical enough that the university wanted to commit to paying him a salary for the rest of his life. He is now 44 years old, with a family to feed, and looking for job with a "second rate has-been" label on his forehead.

    ---

    What does this tell us? If you believe in supply and demand, this tells us that there are MORE than enough top quality scientists being produced and that science education is not lagging in the least and that science knowledge is a commodity. This article is a bunch of hand-wringing over nothing.

  14. Why Encourage Kids to go Science? by LionKimbro · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Philip Greenspun had some interesting things to say about careers in science:

    In short, some young people think that science is a good career for the same reason that they think being a musician or actor is a good career: "I can't decide if I want to be a scientist like James Watson, a musician like Britney Spears, or an actor like Harrison Ford."

    Philip's argument makes good sense to me.

    The article was noting that teaching Science isn't very rewarding, either:


    "What happens is that the system tends to beat them down," Padilla said. "Working conditions are poor, it's a difficult job, and the pay isn't that great."


    So, I would say that, on the face of it, Science just doesn't pay, and a lot of us are really interested in getting paid.

    What does pay? Perhaps research, (which Vernor Vinge called "Search & Analysis," and noted was at "the heart of the economy,") perhaps technology, perhaps being a system administrator, or being a mechanic, or something like that. Perhaps being a business person or a manager. I wouldn't really know; I've not asked the question "How do I make more money?" deeply enough.

    But answering the question "How does the natural world work?" doesn't seem to be where the money is at. "How do I make this better?" seems to be only a little bit closer.

    I would prefer that we asked the question: "How do we make the world a more satisfying place for all people in it, and ensure that nature grows healthier and healthier?" Unfortunately, the pay isn't so good. Perhaps the questions necessary child is: "How do we make this pay?"
    1. Re:Why Encourage Kids to go Science? by Bamafan77 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I posted similiar comments linking to the same article exactly one minute before you. :)

      Another great quote from Philip's article is that "Adjusted for IQ, quantitative skills, and working hours, jobs in science are the lowest paid in the United States." This is absolutely true.

      Now a lot of people say that one shouldn't do science just for the money, a fine sentiment. However, you're not allowed to say we're coming up "short" in science education when salaries seem to indicate that there are *too many* scientists in many areas(assuming you think scientist's salaries should be higher than they are).

  15. Re:A victory for the Right by Distinguished+Hero · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If "The Right" wanted to shift public opinion to their side through the manipulation of the educational curriculum, they could simply mandate the teaching of basic economics (and perhaps some actual history that teaches more than just "white people oppressed everyone").

    --
    Uttering logically derived and empirically supported truths to the disciples of the orthodox establishment.
  16. We just need to redefine the word "science" by Jim+in+Buffalo · · Score: 2, Funny

    Rather than using the word to describe the process for evaluating empirical knowledge, we need to redefine "science" to mean the process for watching TV, playing videogames, getting high, and meeting up at the shopping mall food court... then we will have the very creme of the crop here in the good ol' USA.

    --
    This sig, aah-ah, is comin' like a ghost-sig...
  17. FIRST by Stalyn · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Here is a online NewsHour story about FIRST founded by Dean Kamen. An excerpt..
    DEAN KAMEN: In this country, we have kids who think what they want to excel at is football or basketball, what they want to do with their time is the entertainment industry, and I think the balance is so distorted that it literally leaves our country at the risk of losing its position in leadership, in technology.
     
    And, as a consequence of that, we will lose our position of leadership in quality of life, standard of living, security, health care, and all of the other things that Americans somehow take for granted. And we've got to change kids' attitudes fast.
    --
    The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
  18. Re:Is anyone really surprised? by Mr.+Vandemar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Intelligent Design is a symptom, not the cause.

  19. Re:Science education scarcity concept is overblown by Scarblac · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So where does this idea come from that high school science is only good for a career in science?!

    It teaches you to think, to handle numbers, to comprehend difficult texts, to have a method to what you're doing, to understand how things work, etc etc etc. It's important for everybody.

    --
    I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
  20. This is the expected result of standarized testing by dpbsmith · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Use standardized tests as your criterion, and you will develop... students with a high ability to score well on standardized tests.

    If you want the ability to reason scientifically, you will need to do something different.

    Unfortunately, the ability to reason scientifically is closely correlated with the ability to reason, the ability to challenge authority, and the ability to insist that 2 and 2 make 4... whether or not that happen to be the official test answer.

  21. What unthoughtful, knee-jerk crap. by JeanPaulBob · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I was raised in your stereotypical conservative, evangelical Christian home. I was homeschooled through middleschool. I watched Kent Hovind videos in youth group. I went to church camps. After high school, I went to a conservative Christian leadership camp that included lectures from Duane Gish.

    I also graduated Summa Cum Laude with a B.S. in Physics and Mathematics. (That's a lifetime 4.0 GPA.) I just finished the first year of my Master's applied physics program in semiconductor microelectronics, and am doing an internship at AMD. I don't think I'm a genius, but I'm good at this stuff, and am told so by my classmates and professors.

    To accomplish all this, there was no shift away from my upbringing. I didn't have to learn new ways of thinking. There were no shackles of dogma to throw off. I didn't have to learn that Science Isn't The Bad Guy, because I was never taught that it was. None of the creationist stuff I was taught growing up affected my scientific reasoning skills--even the arguments I've since decided are complete drivel.

    I agree that there's a veritable crap-ton of idiotic drivel being shoveled out by people arguing for creationism. That stuff is accepted by people who don't know better, and it's accepted because they don't have the time or skills to trace through the logic carefully and recognize the mistakes. But the existence of the drivel doesn't cause the lack of skill--it's the other way around!

    1. Re:What unthoughtful, knee-jerk crap. by JeanPaulBob · · Score: 2, Interesting
      My point wasn't to hold myself up as a model case--of homeschoolers, religious people, fundamentalists, or any other group. That would be pretty superficial generalization.

      Here's where most of my point was:
      To accomplish all this, there was no shift away from my upbringing. I didn't have to learn new ways of thinking. There were no shackles of dogma to throw off. I didn't have to learn that Science Isn't The Bad Guy, because I was never taught that it was. None of the creationist stuff I was taught growing up affected my scientific reasoning skills--even the arguments I've since decided are complete drivel.
      I think I should rephrase the last part a bit. The last sentence probably made you think I was saying, "I was able to keep good reasoning skills in spite of being taught drivel." That wasn't what I meant.

      My point was, I wasn't taught poor reasoning skills! My point was, I never "grew out of" fundamentalism, and I didn't have to learn new ways of thinking. My point was, I was taught to be rigorously analytical by creationists. There was never any point that my creationist views interfered with my scientific reasoning skills. There is no inconsistency between being an IDer and acing that standardized test.

      Now, I do think there's a lot of very bad creationist arguments, and that your average layperson doesn't realize how bad they are because they lack the training, and they don't spend the time and effort required. But I also think your little thesis in the grandparent post exemplifies pretty much the same sort of sloppy reasoning. The "unthoughtful, knee-jerk crap" was the idea that the efforts of ID & creationist groups are responsible for the decline of science ability in current teens. It has only the thinnest veneer of rationale.

      I can't tell you how many 12-18yr olds I have heard rant about how their classmates are so stupid for believing that dinosaurs existed because their parents taught them the world is only 6000 years old.

      I don't believe you. At all. I don't think you're lying, but I think there's about a 98% chance that your memory is, *ahem*, confused. I'm sure you've heard many teens rant about evolution, or radiometric dating, or the Big Bang, or the Second Law of Thermodynamics, but I don't believe you've heard them rant about the existence of dinosaurs. It just didn't happen. Maybe one or two, but I doubt even that many. "Dinosaurs don't exist" is about as far from the modern creationist movement as the Flat Earth Society.

      How they rant about how stupid their teachers are and how they lie and are sinners because they teach biology instead of pure fundamentalist creationism.

      Really? Did they say that, or did they say, "because they teach evolution"? Do you understand why changing words for greater rhetorical effect makes it difficult for me to take you seriously?

      So its not just kneejerk, it really does happen that way out there.

      See what I said about "my point" up above. Even if your alleged teens said exactly what you seem to think, it wouldn't matter, and it would be irrelevant to the superficiality of your argument.

      I'm not sure why you see this as an attack on religion...it isn't. It is an attack on teaching poor reasoning skills that largely are continued on through fundamentalist beliefs.

      I'm not sure why you think I see this as an attack on religion. I didn't say that I do. I didn't imply that I do. I don't.

      I'm sure many fundamentalists have poor reasoning skills. What I do doubt is that the average is much worse than the general population, if at all. (And incidentally, I still consider myself a fundamentalist--but I rarely use the term, since hardly anyone has quite the same definition.)
    2. Re:What unthoughtful, knee-jerk crap. by Geminii · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Teaching incorrect axioms and/or reasoning skills, or failing to teach the correct ones, will mean that the student has to:

      (a) realise that they were not given correct information;

      (b) discover for themselves what the correct information is; and

      (c) then catch up on the years of instruction and information they were originally denied

      before they will be at the same learning level as students who were initially taught correctly. It follows that the skill levels of students exposed to drivel may very well be depressed compared to those of students who weren't.

      Drivel causes low skill levels which in turn leads to more drivel. It's a self-perpetuating cycle which only the brightest individuals break out of, because they're the only ones who actively question what they were taught.

    3. Re:What unthoughtful, knee-jerk crap. by solstice680 · · Score: 2

      Yes, Evidence.

      Two investigators look at a crime scene. They have a body and a murder weapon. They have the same evidence to work with. Without an eyewitness account they have to form a hypothesis and ask, "what physical observables would I expect to find if the following scenario happened at the scene of the crime?" Then, they test the crime scene for these observables and refine their hypothesis. The testing of the hypothesis and the hypothesis itself are independent in the sense that a "silly" hypothesis should fail under the same tests that would invalidate a sensible, yet incorrect hypothesis.

      Special creation assumes an initial condition, at some not so distant point in time, right? "Scientific" theories (and I use quotes not to imply that they aren't science, but to denote the stuff you'll see in textbooks) make no such assumption, but explain how things went from t=0 to present day by allowing natural processes (near-)infinite time to arrive here.

      Now, just because special creation uses an initial condition based on a "silly" hypothesis doesn't mean that it cannot be subjected to the same tests of physical observables as evolution. In either case you're left guessing at a LOT. On the one hand you have an obviously untestable theory and on the other you're taking a time-limited sampling of measurements and extrapolating millions and millions of years. (I don't mean measurements of physical laws, but of geological processes).

      Either way this planet is a pocketwatch found in the middle of a field, and either way we're left with something that's hard to explain. To me, a theory that allows infinite time for that watch to build itself is not necessarily any more or less valid than one that suggests that perhaps someone put it there. Either way, we're left with evidence of _something_ that we try to test against our hunch.

      I recognize that our "hunches" affect our world view, and thereby also affect our interpretation of the evidence. Confirmation bias, right? It does go both ways, and good (and bad) science can be done by both sides. You suspect the butler, I suspect the doctor. But I will be modded down. Lots. Just because the doctor happens to be the one true God, in my case... =) Or off-topic.

  22. The problem is more complex by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Interesting
    In holland we had a system that basically split school up into trade schools and theory schools. Plenty of students just don't want to spend all their time in stuffy classrooms. That is great. Go learn a trade. 8 hours of shop will take the boredom right out of you AND the real world NEEDS mechanics and builders etc etc. Trade school didn't teach you much in the way of social studies or language beyond the basics (dutch and english and for the brightest german but no french (except for the cooks/butlers))

    So while tech school was supposed to be lower it actually rated slightly higher. They certainly had a better change of getting a job.

    This whole system was changed and the two schools merged. The amount of practice hours was reduced forcing the kids who don't want to be in school to be in school. This leads to lots of dropouts and the kids that stick with it learn no usefull trade.

    Dropouts, useless school diploma's lack of skilled workers. Great. All because all those poor tradeskill kids were not learning about arts or biology or french.

    It was an experiment and it failed completly. It sounds a lot like the american "no kid left behind" idea. Stop social experiments with our schools.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  23. Re:You're missing something crucial... by Bamafan77 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    While the things that you list are true, there is one crucial difference between scientists and 99% of the rest of the working class: they love their work. They enjoy exploring new concepts and testing predictions. Unlike the guy working drive-thru at McDonald's, scientists get a real sense of joy and accomplishment out of their work, which in large part diverts their attention from mere financial gain. If scientists hated their jobs half as much as most people, they could be making as much money as the puppets in their universities' administrations.
    I've found that sentitment to be true for the vast minority of scientists. I've worked in biotech and in science labs in university. Many scientists are forced to work in areas they don't like simply because those areas are "popular" (thus insuring publication), that's what their principle investigator tells them to do, etc. I rarely find the scientists working on the thing he wants to work on. He, like many of us, is doing the thing someone is willing to pay him to do and that's rarely the thing he wants to do.

    Greenspun further describes the typical scienst in his article :

    Some scientists are like kids who never grow up. They love what they do, are excited by the possibilities of their research, and wear a big smile most days. Although these people are, by Boston standards, ridiculously poor and they will never be able to afford a house (within a one-hour drive of their job) or support a family, I don't feel sorry for them.

    Unfortunately, this kind of child-like joy is not typical. The tenured Nobel Prize winners are pretty happy, but they are a small proportion of the total. The average scientist that I encounter expresses bitterness about (a) low pay, (b) not getting enough credit or references to his or her work, (c) not knowing where the next job is coming from, (d) not having enough money or job security to get married and/or have children. If these folks were experiencing day-to-day joy at their bench, I wouldn't expect them to hold onto so much bitterness and envy.

  24. We can see the cause right here on slashdot by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 3, Insightful
    How many times have we seen articles that claim that Linux is too complex to learn? That is should be simpler so the average joe can use it?

    If you dare to suggest that Linux is only for people willing to spend time learning an OS then you are an Elitist.

    The same is true in schools. No kids left behind CANNOT work unless you are willing to lower the passing grade so people with IQ's in the double digits can pass.

    Linux is a center of excellence. Windows is no user left behind.

    But saying this is elitist, your an asshole for suggesting some people just aren't smart enough to graduate. In holland we had a system for this. It seperarted schools into theory and trade. Kids who didn't want/couldn't study theory could learn a trade instead. This went so well that trade schools were actually rated higher then theory schools. Higher Trade School was a lot thougher then Higher Administrative School. The same was true for mid level and lower level. Basically you could go from MTS to HAVO but not from MAVO to MTS.

    But no, we had to make everyone the same and so tradeschools were cancelled. Dropout rates have never been higher as the kids who could get rid of their energy in practice now are forced to spend all their time in theory. Those kids that get their diploma find they haven't learned anything usefull and business can no longer get qualified personel.

    But hey, no kid is left behind. Well except for the dropouts. And the kids who wanted to learn a trade. But who cares about them.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  25. 1995 vs today by phantomlord · · Score: 2, Informative
    I graduated from high school (full AP/honors classes) in 1995 in the top 10% of my class at one of the (then) better public high schools in NY State outside of NYC. My sister was 7 years younger than me so I had a pretty good grasp at what was happening with the students younger than me. For the past 10 years, I've also managed a family restaurant in the same town so I've been able to see exactly what the outcome is.

    By the time my sister started school, the teachers I had began to retire and a new wave fresh out of college were brought in. With them, they brought all these great new ideas on how to teach. In elementary school, I remember doing weekly tests on arithmetic tables, going up to the chalkboard to do math in front of the class, various scientific "experiments" (watching plants grow over a course of a semester and measuring it's change in height), etc. My sister never did any of that stuff. They did math in groups to "promote teamwork" and that resulted in the one or two strongest people in each group doing all of the work while everyone else goofed around and never really learned anything.

    My freshman year of high school, I experienced my first wave of the changes. While the government mandates special education be provided for the learning disabled kids, it didn't mandate anything for the more advanced kids. The school had just built a new addition which meant diverting budget funds away from education and into repayment of bonds. They've since built 2 more additions when they would have been much better served by simply building an entirely new school since a new school would have cost approximately half of what they've spent expanding the current one three times (the entire expense being about 5 times the full yearly budget). All because they expected a large influx of kids coming up based on demographic changes (about 15% more than my class). Well, sure enough, this year's senior class has about 20% more students than mine (120 vs 145) and starting next year, the classes shrink again. The problem could have been solved by using the rooms more efficiently (at any given time, a large number of classrooms are empty with just a teacher sitting in them during one of their 40% of the work day break periods), but why do that when you can throw money at the problem?

    The school budget for next year just went up for election... $1.2 million increase on a $28 million budget. If you pass it, you're looking at a $29.2 million budget and if you turn it down, you're looking at a $29.2 million contingency budget. It's the same budget whether it passes or fails. Looking at the numbers, they want to spend more money on two new buses ($220k) than they will spend on new books ($165k) for the entire district (K-12). Teacher salaries make up the lion share of the budget followed by teacher benefits and building maintenance/bond payments. The school mailed letters to everyone in the district during the winter bragging about how they were going to save electricity by reducing light usage and turning down the heat (because cold students learn better?). Why, it would save thousands of dollars!

    Anyway, before I ramble on too long about all the problems between the "new and improved" teaching methods which promote self esteem and teaming instead of learning and how they squander millions on building new additions and remodeling sports fields every few years, lets look at the results. Remember how I said I managed a restaurant? Well, back ten years ago, people new how to make change in their heads, new general problem solving that they might encounter (what do I do when a fire starts on the grill), etc. These days, kids (we're talking 16-20, including people with diplomas and one who was valedictorian from my school a few years ago) just flat can't make change without using a calculator, don't know what to do when they encounter minor problems (some don't even know how to open cans without an electric can opener while others can't figure out how to refill hand towels in the bathroom), they don't even know how t

    --
    Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
  26. ID by Alioth · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is the sort of thing you get when conjectures such as "intelligent design" is pushed as science by people who don't even know what science is, and teachers who are bound up in their religion so much they have to give "intelligent design" a fair hearing in science class - when it's not even science.

  27. Self medicating by moultano · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The most egregious stoners I met in high school often turned out to be bi-polar.

  28. Drugs by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 2, Insightful
    High school kids in virtuall ALL countries experiment heavily with drugs and alcohol, and have for as long as there have been universities. Back during the renaissance, many European cities had laws forbidding students from entering -- they were that rowdy and destructive.

    The problem is that Americans have a culture that celebrates ignorance and vilifies intelligence of any kind. I make it a point to slap anyone so profoundly stupid and intolerant that they use the phrase "ivory tower" -- a situation which, fortunately, has yet to arise. Thank god/cthulhu/fsm that I live in Canada, where we at least pay lip service to book-learnin'.

    Seriously though -- considr that the US has an illiterate president. What kind of message does that send? He's the LEADER of the nation. And guess what -- people follow where he leads. In fact, it's estimated that as many as 10% of Harvard graduates are functionally illiterate, which is about what you'd expect from a school whose entrance criteria are primarily based on wealth and the prestige of an applicant's family, rather than any actual intellectual merit.

  29. A Comparison by clragon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I am a Canadian citizen, immigrated to Canada when I was 10.

    Now, even thou the article is focusing on American education, I just thought I bring Canadian and Chinese education into the mix.

    First 10 years of my life, I went to school in China. In kindergarden, addition and subtraction were briefly introduced to us. We were easily able to do one digit addition/subtraction, however some parents like mine pushed us to do more, so as a result, on the first day of school in grade 1, I was able to do two digit addition and subtraction already.

    School in China was hard, since the starting of grade one I had to do homework constantly from after school (around 5pm) to 8, or 9 PM. On the weekends most kids were sent to private lessons for various kinds of things like piano, English (you dont start learning English in school until grade 5, but parents send grade 1 kids to English lessons so that they can have a head start), or just for core classes like Math or Chinese.

    In elementary school, there are two exams, one is midterm and the other is final. These were basicly your report cards, everything you do in the year basicly prepares you for these tests. Much is dependant on the result of your final exam each grade. I remember my teacher saying "if you got below a 90 on the final exam, it would be the equivilant of failing." She wasn't exatrating either, middle school in China accepts students based on their final exam mark in grade 6. If you did not get a good mark on that exam, too bad, you will have to go to a crappy middle school. To people living in Canada or the US, they would probably say "so what, it's just middle school." It's much more than that, if you were in a bad middle school, high school wont even take a look at your application despite your mark. Universities will do the same to bad high schools. So it was made very clear to us when we were in grade 1, that if you were to do bad on the final exam in grade 6, your whole life is ruined.

    Then I moved to Canada.

    Everything changed. I was living in Vancouver at the time. (I had to take a 45 min bus to my school, because all the schools near my house were "over populated", but thats another issue)I walked in a Canadian classroom for the first time and found out these kids were doing two digit addition and subtraction, the same ones I knew how to do when I started elementary school in China. All of the sudden, I became a "genius". But soon I discovered that being a genius in a Canadian school isn't all that great. you see, in China your popularity depends a lot on your marks, just like in Canada and the US, but in an opposite way. If you had the best marks in the class, everyone will want to be your friend. If you were failing, you would be that "failure", or loner that everybody stays away from. In Canada however, I found out the hard way that if you were getting good marks for classes like Math, the chances are you will be pretty unpopular.

    I had another thing to discover in Canada, when I went into high school I found myself hang around people who are "gifted". I found out that kids in Canada take a test in grade 3 and 6 to see if they have a high than averge IQ. They are put into the same class and were taught harder things than the normal kids.

    Now, why did I write all that? It is to give you a bit of info before I present my opinion about why the quality of education here is not as good as it could be.

    First, a lot of kids in Canada and the US have this weird ideology that if they arn't born smart, there is no way in the world for them to become smarter. I was considered a genius by kids in my class when I came to Canada, but they didn't say that because they knew about all the homework I did in grade 1 in China, they said it because they thought I was born smart since I was Asian or something. They refuse to work harder to achieve things because they believe that there is no point because they are not smart to start with.

    On the other side, you had many of these gif

    1. Re:A Comparison by clragon · · Score: 3, Insightful
      People like Einstein would have slipped through the Chinese system of education completely. Einstein had a pretty lacklustre academic record at school, from what you've said, that would've been it for him in China.

      Einstein failed his non-math subjects in school, the German education system was to blame for that because it placed such a importance on math, and nothing else. He was learning calculus at 12, which is amazing. In the 1890s, the system of grading was reversed so Einstein's 1, which ment for perfect, became a "fail". thats how the rumour started.

      When was the last time you heard of a Chinese genius and when was the last time you heard of an American genius? I'm not intending to put the Chinese system down or anything, maybe the reason I've never heard of a Chinese genius is due to the language or the government not releasing research or something along those lines.

      China was always had top technology (at least in the field of warfare ;) ) before the industrial revolution. Since the Chinese only faced threats from the Mongolians in the north, they never bothered to improved their technology, as oppose to European countries who HAD to embrace the new technology or be wiped off the map. Starting then, China declined. To the point where it had to give Taiwan away to Japan in the first Sino-Japanses war, and then almost loose itself completely during the second Sino-Japanese war. Then the communist came into power, the cultural revolution and the Great Leap Forward plunged the nation backwards. It was only until recently did the education system in China became good. My dad's generation was not even allowed to go to university because the communist government considered it to be "useless". So the real reason you dont see a lot of famous Chinese scientists, is because only my generation of Chinese were educated properly. Those before us had to suffer through war or be forced to NOT learn.

      The American system of picking "gifted" students out based on IQ does have it's problems but on the other hand it will rarely let a gifted student slip (if the system is working).

      See, thats the problem, what defines a "gifted student"? The American system rely on the IQ, but a survey done on the richest 200 Americans showed that the IQ affects little of what people can achieve in life. There are various studdies (just search in google) that shows how IQ will not be as big a factor as dedication when achieving things in life. Americans, especialy the youth are very caught up in this IQ hype, thinking that high IQ = smart regardless of anything else. This also have social impacts as well because now the students realize if they have a lower IQ, they are counted as stupid, despite what they do in their life. This is the wrong approach to take if you want your students to do well.
      The Chinese, on the other hand, picks their "gifted" students based on what the student had achieved. So when I saw people going into the Fast track class, I said to myself "I will be in it next year because I will work harder this year", as oppose to the IQ system where the students can't do anything to improve their self-esteem about their intelligence. PS: sorry for the grammar/spelling mistakes, typing this in a hurry.
    2. Re:A Comparison by Barraketh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree with everything you say, except for the basic premise that this is the reason that our education is bad. Here are some of my thoughts on the matter:

      1) As a Russian who also moved to Canada, I agree with a lot of what you say. As I graduate from the University of Waterloo this summer, I still don't think I ever worked as hard at any level of schhol as I did in grade 1 in Russia. I moved 3/4 through grade 1, but continued to study math with my parents until grade 5, which lasted me through most of highschool.
      2) Education as it is structured in Russia and China is aimed at allowing the elite to develop as fast and as well as humanly possible. This, however is not necessarily a good thing. As you mentioned, those who do badly in school are looked upon as "failures". This is not particularly fair to these children, especially since we need many more construction/office/sales people than university professors.
      3) Education where classes are not separated by ability is always a compromise: if you set the difficulty level at the average student, the bright ones will be bored with school. If you set the level to cater to bright students, most of the class will struggle, which is unnecessary when many of these students will not need strong math/science skills in their future vocations. In short, American/Canadian system leaves the kids with a worse education, but it also leaves them with a higher self esteem and in the end turns out happier people.
      4) There are several ways to solve this problem.
      a) One is external to education system: if somehow we can make science cool, then the kids will want to learn, while at the same time not hurting their self esteem if they don't do too well - you can be good at science, or basketball, or music, and any one of these will make you "cool".
      b) Another way to solve this problem is to separate the classes by ability. This way the "gifted" students will have work set at their level. This can be done either by some sort of testing as it is now, or it can be done as in Germany, where the school at some point splits up into several streams - one for students who want to go to university and one for ones who do not.
      5) From what I saw at UW, which is the best school in canada in terms of computer science education, and one of the best in north america, the truly bright kids do alright for themselves even with the bad education throughout highschool. They keep their minds sharp with hobbies, and are still able to do well in university and jobs. We have a *lot* of extremely hard working chinese students, many from china, but I would not say that they dominate here in terms of marks, so all is not so bad.

      At the end of the day, I don't believe it's fair to children to tie their self esteem and popularity to their marks anymore than it's fair to tie them to their success in sports - we just don't need *that* many university professors. Yes, the ability to think critically should be encouraged, but it's not as cut and dry as "make school 8 times harder". Yes, for most of university i've felt that school would be a lot more fun for me if it was catered to a group of about 30 students or so from my year that took advanced math courses, theortical computer science courses etc. At the same time, the students themselves and their parents bear some responsibility for developing their talents, and trying to cater to the elite will create a society of people with inferiority complexes.

  30. culture of stupidity by Edmund+Blackadder · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Lets face it the last several years the country has been clouded by a culture of stupidity. And it is no wonder that children's ability to understand sciance is good at young age but drops off sharply at high school because high school is where children are exposed to the 'adult' culture and politics.

    Lets face it everyone knows how stupidity penetrated politics, I dont have to spell it out. But from there it spread out and went everywhere. All of a sudden anyone remotely intelligent on TV was deemed to be part of the "old liberal media" even if they were not liberal at all.

    Every one on television and in popular culture was pressured to show and give credit to the point of view of stupidity and complete idiocy or they risked being labeled part of the old liberal media. Half wits that specialized in entertaining complete uneducated idiots (like the various radio talk show hosts) were elevated to respected status. Don't get me started on bill oreilly.

    And the most offensive thing is that stupidity invaded popular culture under the disguise of religion. Every complete moron that went on TV perpetuating some lowest common denominator 'theory' awlays said that he was taking directions from jesus himself and therefore one could not use logical arguments against him because that made one a godless liberal elitist that disrespects ordinary americans. As if believing in God gave everyone the right ... no, the duty and repsonsibility of being as stupid as possible.

    One wonders how we never saw an intelligent promoter of Christianity on TV. I know they exist, because I have read their writings, but for some reason when you turn on your television set all you see is some half wit foaming at the mouth bible thumping neo fascist.

    And dont get me started about popular culture. We worship dumb bimbos that act like sluts but assure everyone that they are good christians. Oh and where we once had comics that made us think now we have ... larry the cable guy.

    Its not even only stupidity ... it is mediocrity at every level of culture ... just like the comedians are not very funny, the younger actors are not especially good at acting, the movie directors suck at directing, the newscasters do no serious journalism, the popular writers cant write very well, the policy makers make terrible foreign policy etc. Mediocrity is being worshipped and talent, intelligence, etc. are being punished.

    Meanwhile university professors are eyed with a lot of suspicion, there are organizations being started for the purpose of spying on proffessors and reporting the "dangerous ones", think-tanks have sprung up so that no journalist ever has to ask the opinion of a university proffessor if they need an "expert".

    Some kids are born smarter and some arent. But in order to learn one need not only be smart one need to want to learn. When stupidity is being worshipped and intelligent or otherwise talented people are simply embarassed of their talent, then fewer and fewer kids will want to learn.

  31. Just wondering... by lardlad · · Score: 2, Interesting

    About 4 years ago I left a great job at Sun to become a high school mathematics teacher. At the end of this school year, I'm leaving education. I now have a great contempt for the union, my school's management, and the district offices - the amount of low-level corruption and abuse of power I've seen is truly shocking.

    I've had to do a lot of personal reflection lately - and I've realized that part of why I came to loggerheads with my administrative team is due to differing beliefs: I got into this racket believing that schools should provide the best possible education for each student. Management believes that schools should provide the bare minimum (10th grade students should be able to do algebra at a certain level, possess a certain vocabulary, be able to parse sentences at a specific level of difficulty...)

    I'm not sure who's correct anymore. Is school a place to challenge each student to achieve their best, or is that a role for parents? Is school just a place to make sure that students have a minimal set of skills that will enable them to live in society? (both is the idealist answer - it's what every politician/superintendent espouses, but at the end of the day, I believe they want the minimal skills option...)

    Thoughts?

  32. From the been around the block many times dept. by Spock+the+Baptist · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm a middle-aged nerd from Texas with a Master of Science in Physics.

    I substitute taught a couple of years in several local ISDs while writing my thesis.

    Here's the scoop. Few folk with that majored, or minored in Natural Sciences, or Mathematics, or who have earned advanced degrees said disciplines, are interested in the low pay and benefits that go with teaching in public high schools in Texas. They are still less interested in jumping through the bureaucratic hoops of the Texas Education Agency (TEA), and other red tape gauchos that currently inundate the public school systems of Texas.

    There are jobs that are very much less frustrating, and are an infinitely better deal on both personal, and professional levels than teaching in public high schools. With a major, minor, or advanced degree in math, and the physical sciences a person has put forth a great deal of effort, and spent much time on his/her degree. Persons that have earned such degrees have little tolerance for the intellectual laziness, and a slacker attitude. The bottom line is that 'teaching' is not an attractive career for such a person.

    This being the case the persons that end up teaching the hard sciences, and mathematics in H.S. are not the brights candles on the tree, or are making, well some times, a valiant effort to teach a subject outside their mastery.

    I can recall at least a half-dozen times that I went into a Jr. High math class and went through a cold turkey, non-rehearsed lecture on some aspect of intro. to algebra turned around to see students with looks of amazement on their faces. The reason for the looks was that that 'got' what I was lecturing on. Their regular teacher had gone over the material the day before to their utter confusion. In each case their teacher did not have even a reasonable math background, but had taken the job because of pay incentives for teaching math. They were regurgitating the material from the textbook. They didn't understand the material themselves.

    This is why there is such problems with math and science education at the H.S. level in the U.S.

    STB

    --
    "Oh drat these computers, they're so naughty and so complex, I could pinch them." --Marvin the Martian
  33. Asians by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Probably because the teachers and parents don't encourage wide-spread abuse of anyone who demonstrates a shred of intellect or individuality.

    Americans put sports first, and guess what? America produces some of the world's best atheletes, while having to recruit its scientists from countries where the intellectually-gifted weren't pummeled half death on a daily basis.

    It's all about who you encourage and who you disparage. When take an illiterate coke-snorting fuck-up who has had everything in life handed to him on a silver platter, and make him the leader of the entire country, it sends a clear message that trying hard in school is a waste of time.

  34. Re:Big Bang by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Reproducability isn't a necessary criteria of science. The ability to make verifiable predictions is. The big-bang theory makes predictions that you can verify for yourself with the right equipment. It's consistent with past observations, and makes consistently accurate predictions about future observations. That makes it a good scientific theory.

    Now, let's pretend that you actually know something about science: what predictions does creationism make? Oh, that's right, none. None at all. Unless you count the predictions that the world will end soon, which keeps not happening. In fact, nearly every predictiont that creationists and ID-advocates make FAILS to realize. That makes it an interesting philosophical idea at best, or a huge load of bullshit at worst.

    But prove me wrong: make a prediction about the distribution of the cosmic background radiation using the bible, and have the WMAP satellite test it. Then we'll compare your predictions with the big-bang+inflation theory predictions, and see who actually knows something about science.

  35. Hardly by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Hardly. If you flip a coin a thousand times, I can make a verifiable prediction that the results will be about within 50 heads/tails of 500 heads and 500 tails 95% of the time. You can test that, and see that it's true (actually, those particular numbers may not be accurate; I don't remember the details of the binomial distribution off the top of my head). Yet the process is clearly quite random and involves nothing even resembling intelligence. And yet there is some process "selecting" either heads or tails each time -- it's just not an intelligent process.

    Face it -- whether or not god exists, every single piece of measurable evidence implies that the universe proceeds in a manner that does not require godly intervention. I would ultimately say that such a universe is far more impressive than the broken crap-shack universe that you obviously believe in, one that breaks down constantly and requires continual divine intervention. If the universe needed constant tinkering, wouldn't that make god an enormous fuck-up? Why couldn't he get it right the first time?

    1. Re:Hardly by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Well, you know, except for the whole flipping of the coin and the coin itself. LOL I guess the evolutionist believes the coin made itself or is descended from some lower monetary form. And then the coin flips itself to give you your probability. [...]

      I was waiting to see what response you could have for his example. I have to say that you were very, very much below my expectations, and they were not exactly flattering to begin with.

      It is quite sad that an adult cannot perceive the distinction between a pattern and the origin of a pattern. It is quite unreasonable to expect to be able to carry on any kind of epistemological discussion with anyone which has not reached that level of abstract reasoning. Do come back in a few years.

      We all use the same science.

      Nope. In fact, what you have in mind is not even science.

      We all have the same facts, we interpret them differently according to our presuppositions. The presuppositions are unavoidable. How is believing the universe to be orderly and designed anti-science, exactly?

      Actually, the critical analysis of the presuppositions is quite important. There are an abundant history of precisely that, and quite a bit of classical science was born precisely out of that.

      One of the biggest problems with an "ordered and intelligently designed" universe is that no one really knows what "ordered" means, what "intelligent" means, what "designed" means nor what "intelligently designed" means. All those pseudo-concepts really carry huge dark areas. At the very LEAST, if you want to base any kind of reasonable (leave "scientific" for later...) discourse, you have to make sure those pseudo-concepts mean something. Well. I'm sorry to break this for you: they do not.

  36. Re:A victory for the Right by Distinguished+Hero · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I recommend this book, for your "actual history" fix.

    Quite humorous. Let us examine perhaps the first historical assertion made by Mr. Chomsky: "The fall of Granada in 1492, ending eight centuries of Moorish sovereignty, allowed the Spanish Inquisition to extend its barbaric sway."
    What Mr. Chomsky forgets to mention is that the Moors were Muslim soldiers who had conquered and ruled most of Spain by force (link: "In 711 AD, the Moors invaded Visigoth Christian Spain. Under their leader, a Berber general named Tariq ibn-Ziyad, they brought most of Spain under Islamic rule in an eight-year campaign."). Their defeat ("loss of sovereignty") was a victory for the forces of anti-colonialism, and if Mr. Chomsky was truly anti-colonial instead of anti-Western, he would have hailed the reconquest of Grenada with exuberance.

    Thanks the the American public "education" "system," the typical, illiterate American would be completely unaware of Mr. Chomsky's lies of omission or his peculiar framing of the situation, and due to their gullibility would accept his dubious statements at face value. On the other hand, had Americans been taught actual history (instead of the politically motivated drivel exemplified by Mr. Chomsky's work), as well as some critical thinking skills, as I orignially suggested, they would have been capable of thinking for themselves and most would have rejected Mr. Chomsky's peculiar interpretation of the events. Of course, as things stand at the moment, the typical, illiterate American cannot locate Europe on a map, let alone Spain; to expect the typical American to have any knowledge of the history of Spain, or of the Islamic Conquests of every civilization except for China (though they did try during the Tang dynasty) and some parts of Northern Europe would extremely unreasonable.

    P.S. The rest of the "book" you linked to is fully of such historical distoritions, lies by omission, pseudo-philosophy, peculiar unsubstantiated assertions, and name dropping, all without any semblance of historical context whatsoever. I truly hope you did not "learn" "history" from it.
    P.P.S. Ever hears of Battle of Tours, arguably the most important event in history? No? I wonder why. What about the Siege of Vienna. Still no? I really wonder why...

    --
    Uttering logically derived and empirically supported truths to the disciples of the orthodox establishment.
  37. That's GREAT!!! by melted · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This means I'll be still making good money when I'm 50 because there won't be any "fresh blood" to replace me with. Let 'em wash the dishes and dream about Hollywood and hip-hop.

  38. Re:I don't usually do this, but... by clragon · · Score: 2, Insightful
    what do you think of the concept of multiculturalism, which is very popular in Canada?


    I think it is a step towards the right direction. It is great to see different people with different culture living in the same society. I love how many people who were born in Canada, despite their racial backgrounds, can come out and say "I am proud that we have people all around the world living here". From the racial aspect, Canada most definitly ahead of the world.

    Despite the sucess, I dont think we as Canadians should elude ourselves the problems that are present in a multicultural society. There are often clashes between groups of people (Natives, people of Quebec, etc), but with time and good policies, Canada will be a great example to the world about how different people can live together.
  39. Certainly not forced by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Informative
    It is a choice by the student. There is a test (cito) done in that last year of elementary school (age 12) that gives a recommendation but that is all it is.

    This is however not that big a deal. Yes some kids will learn they have what it takes to become doctors or engineers (first is theory, second is trade) and other will learn they are barely fit for special needs schools (retards)

    But the largest group will fall somewhere in between and will just go to the school that fits the proffesion they want to be in the future.

    Trade schools are by no means lightweight. They just focus more on practice but in a way this forces kids to learn the theory in fewer hours.

    In practice it seemed to me that kids who knew what they wanted to be ended up getting the education they needed while kids with no future plan could go get the type of education that fitted best with their personality.

    Yes it does sounds like your father in law benefitted from being forced into theory BUT the sad daily effect is that while forcing everyone to learn theory may work for the rare exception for a lot of kids it means they cannot keep up or dropout.

    Saying everyone should study social sciences to be a fully rounded human being sounds nasty. As if somehow you can't be a proper member of society unless you can quote shakespeare. That sounds Elitist to me. Not accepting that people want to do different things with their lives.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  40. A point of disagreement... by ggoebel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    By and large, I agree with the previous poster. But on one point, I cannot:

    "I view bad teachers as another challenge to be overcome; a truly good student will persevere no matter the quality of the teacher."

    This is simply not true. Some kids will persevere, many will not.

    There have been psychological studies that have used children previously identified through intelligence testing and catagorized them by their exceptional strengths: creative, analytical, etc. In the study I read, the groups of students were placed into classrooms with a teacher that taught the cirriculum with a particular emphasis on one perspective: creative, analytical, etc.

    The kids whose exceptional strength matched the one emphasized by the teacher did best.

    It is unfortunate that the education system in the USA emphasizes the analytical and memorization talents. A lot of kids' talents are never recognized or encouraged. Many subsequently come to feel that they are failures because they don't excel in sports or academics.

    --
    Life is like an egg better scrambled than fried. -- Ken Sawatari