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A Look at FreeNAS Server

NewsForge (Also owned by VA) has a quick look at FreeNAS, an open source network attached storage server that can be deployed on pretty much any old PC you have sitting around the house. From the article: "The software, which is based on FreeBSD, Samba, and PHP, includes an operating system that supports various software RAID models and a Web user interface. The server supports access from Windows machines, Apple Macs, FTP, SSH, and Network File System (NFS), and it takes up less than 16MB of disk space on a hard drive or removable media."

214 comments

  1. NAS by certel · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Would a NAS device not require some pretty good processing power under a bit of a load? I know of course it would be scalable based on the usage, but still, the notion that it runs on 'any old system' wouldn't be entirely true.

    1. Re:NAS by nharmon · · Score: 2, Informative

      Normally, no. The article mentioned setting up a software RAID 5 array. This still probably wouldn't overwhelm a half-decent processor (400mhz+), unless one of the drives had to be replaced. Then the processor will be swamped while it recovers.

    2. Re:NAS by Orange+Crush · · Score: 3, Informative

      Why? All it's doing is serving up files via Samba shares. I have 20 clients connected to a Debian/Samba box with a 1 ghz P3, 1 gig Ram, and a couple 80 gig IDE drives (no RAID or anythign) . . . not under much strain at all, actually. I know intensive IDE transactions need a lot of CPU, but we're talking about shared office docs. I can't imagine drive operations getting all that intensive when the major bottleneck in this case is going to be to 100mbit ethernet card.

    3. Re:NAS by questionlp · · Score: 5, Informative

      I think the bottleneck will first be with your network connection (primarily if it's 100Mbps). With Gigabit Ethernet, your hard drives or drive array would be the next bottleneck (mostly if your network and storage controller are on the same PCI bus).

      A lot of the SOHO NAS boxes run off of ARM processors, which are both power efficient but also able to handle the basic I/O needs of a NAS box. Granted, SOHO NAS boxes aren't meant for large companies or large workgroups, but would fit in as a departmental file server for testing or near-distance storage.

      Higher end NAS boxes due use more powerful servers to handle 1+ Gigabit Ethernet connections, iSCSI or Fibre Channel, multiple PCI-X busses or multiple 4-8x PCI Express drops, and large amounts of RAM for caching and such. For instance, the latest corporate NAS boxes fron Snap/Adaptec use Opteron processors.

      I've ran a small workgroup file server off of a Pentium Pro 200/256K with 256MB of RAM and several 9GB SCSI drives in RAID-5 and the bottleneck was definitely the two 100Mbps Ethernet connections. Of course, YMMV.

    4. Re:NAS by certel · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure how this would operate vs. a web server but I can only speculate that it would operate in some what of he same manor and if that is the case, then serving up any files is very CPU intensive. I had a video site that would die under any type of medium load. Of course, we're talking about 200-300 people at a time, but 20-30, but the idea is still relative.

    5. Re:NAS by harrkev · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I am certainly not an expert on NAS...

      Gigabit ethernet is pretty rare on the type of old hardware that typically gets pressed into NAS usage. It would not take too much processing horsepower to saturate a 100 Mb/s link. If, on the other hand, you system has gigabit built-in, I suspect that it has a processor attached that can handle it.

      But, if you are the type of guy to attach a PCI gigabit ethernet port to an old P-3, then the processor might not be able to keep up.

      And now for something completely different...

      There are distos like FreeNAS that do one thing well. There are other distros that can also do broadband router functions. Does anybody know of anything that does both? I will spare you the details, but I would like one box that can do NAS duty (NFS and Samba), and act as a router. The computer will have three ethernet ports -- one for cable modem, one for the switch to the wired LAN, and one for the wireless AP. I know that I could roll-my-own by using (insert favorite distro here), but that would take me longer to learn how to set up than I have right now, especially with my wife's business (see signature below). Something with a point-n-drool interface that is web-administered would be perfect. Bonus points for print server. Any suggestions?

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    6. Re:NAS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      File serving does better with more memory, not a bigger processor, of course the bottleneck will change depending on equipment but I'd say you would have to go out of your way to find a slow CPU for that to be the choke point. At my last job, I had a P200 with 1GB ram serving files via two 100mbit connections. At max network load (bottleneck at about 20MB/sec) and 20 users, the processor was less then 40% utilized. I assume most of the CPU that was being used was for the HD access as they were regular old PATA drives on the onboard controller which was close to being the bottleneck.

    7. Re:NAS by ericdano · · Score: 1

      Seriously. I had to rebuild my array on my file server, which is 700 gigabytes. It has 4 250 gig drives connected with an Adaptec 2400 card (ATA). It took a day and a half to rebuild. I can't imagine how many days or weeks a software RAID 5 would take to rebuild........

      --
      It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
      I moderate therefore I rule!
      --
    8. Re:NAS by Jahz · · Score: 1
      Why? All it's doing is serving up files via Samba shares. I have 20 clients connected to a Debian/Samba box with a 1 ghz P3, 1 gig Ram, and a couple 80 gig IDE drives (no RAID or anythign) . . . not under much strain at all, actually. I know intensive IDE transactions need a lot of CPU, but we're talking about shared office docs. I can't imagine drive operations getting all that intensive when the major bottleneck in this case is going to be to 100mbit ethernet card.
      True, and just to put that in perspective...

      100 Mbits / 8b = 12.5 MB

      So the absolute max of that NIC would be a mere 12.5 MB/s, while a good quality, recent generation IDE hard drive will put out about 50 MB/s. To make it worse, file transfers use TCP. In practice, I have found the TCP vegas overhead to be 12-15%. So you're real 100 mbit NIC max is about:

      100 mbit * .88 = 88 mbit / 8 = 11 MB/s

      The numbers should scale to gigabit at 110 MB/s, but I can't verify that personally (but I doubt it).

      --
      There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who do not.
    9. Re:NAS by BawbBitchen · · Score: 1

      I would just install FreeBSD 6.1. The handbook is great and pretty much explains everything. Setup PF for the firewall and you can use webadmin for the GUI if need be.

      -Sean (http://www.beastproject.org/)

    10. Re:NAS by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      Our family used to use an AMD K6 for this (FreeBSD 4.x, Samba, etc). We have 4 laptops including 2 Macs, 3 windows desktops, and 2 i386 FBSD workstations, 2 Ultrasparc workstations, and... - yes, in our house! The NAS has run 24/7 since whenever 4.1 was released, non-stop (except when the HDs were upgraded). A couple of weeks ago, we upgraded to a Sun Ultra5 (still FreeBSD, but 6.1), Samba, etc). Wonderful - massively faster! No problems upgrading, and all for £40 worth of hardware from EBay.

      But we used standard FBSD and stuff from the ports. No need for any special bundle. I can't see the point of this.

      I would like a how-to for getting the Mac to work with both Samba and NFS. I had to call in a Mac Guru (my son). Its about the only time the FBSD Handbook has ever let me down.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    11. Re:NAS by gc8005 · · Score: 0

      For your requirements, I'd suggest ClarkConnect - http://www.clarkconnect.org/. Get the free/home version. I've used it for years - it's great.

      Ironically, I spent the weekend playing with FreeNAS. I was able to get ~380Mbit/sec on my el-cheapo gigabit network. I'm quite impressed with FreeNAS. It's easier to setup/configure/manage than anything else I've worked with.

    12. Re:NAS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Smoothwall Express (home router), has a Samba homebrew add on package but I could not find anything for NFS. These meet 2/3 of your goal and Smoothwall can be a print server as well ;)

    13. Re:NAS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I use software raid5 on a 1ghz p3, 500meg partition, and it took maybe 3 hours to rebuild when a drive failed. no problem at all.

    14. Re:NAS by supersocialist · · Score: 1

      Try a package called Coyote Linux or FreeSCO. I ran both on a ludicrously underpowered p3 with 64mb ram and just a floppy (and later an old 1.2gb hard disk). I recall SAMBA support in at least one of them ... but I admit it's been a little while and that's about all the information I've retained. I use a d-link wireless router and no NAS server these days.

    15. Re:NAS by damium · · Score: 1

      I have a 5 disk array using a highpoint raid controller, it rebuilds in about 2 hours when the computer is booted. It takes a full day to rebuild from the BIOS however.

    16. Re:NAS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny
      I had to rebuild my array on my file server, which is 700 gigabytes. It has 4 250 gig drives

      That sure is a lot of p0rn. You might want to get some help.

    17. Re:NAS by kv9 · · Score: 1
      I ran both on a ludicrously underpowered p3 with 64mb ram [...]

      a P3 is ludicrously underpowered? since fucking when, if i may be so inquisitive?

    18. Re:NAS by supersocialist · · Score: 1

      Well, it was a p2... the 3 was just a typo. It was under 500mhz; I think it was 233 or 266 or something.

    19. Re:NAS by c0nman · · Score: 1

      Still looking for underpowered...

      My (obsd)firewall/proxy/smb is running strong on my 25DX. Of course I'd never add a software raid on that, but also would not ever run a software raid for any reason.

    20. Re:NAS by supersocialist · · Score: 1

      Get with the times, man! In 2006, more is less.

    21. Re:NAS by ChrisA90278 · · Score: 1
      Typically small file servers do not require a lot of CPU power. The comsumner level NAS boxes you buy for home or small office use use very low end CPUs not much different from what you find on a home router/firewall.

      But if youinstall a large scale RAID array and four gigabit eethernet interfaces and hook it up to all 250 PCs in an office where all therusers keep their data on the server then yes you might want a modern server class computer.

    22. Re:NAS by ericdano · · Score: 1

      How big of an array though. I have 4 250 gig drives in a RAID 5 config. It seriously took 36+ hours to rebuild on a Pentium 4 2.4 gigahertz with 1 gig of ram.

      I'm looking into building another box in a similar configuration using a SATA Raid controller that supports multiple cards and online expansion.....

      --
      It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
      I moderate therefore I rule!
      --
    23. Re:NAS by deadhammer · · Score: 1

      If he had some help, he wouldn't need the Pr0n.

      --
      I'll be honest, we're throwing science against the wall to see what sticks. -Cave Johnson
    24. Re:NAS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have been playing with a ClarkConnect distro for some time. I don't use each of the features you described, but it has them.

      www.clarkconnect.com

      They have home and business versions, but I believe the free home version has everything you listed.

      Daniel

    25. Re:NAS by soleblaze · · Score: 1

      Took me about 8 hours to rebuild a 200gb disk on an 8 disk software raid 5 array using an amd 2500+ and 512mb of ram.

    26. Re:NAS by damium · · Score: 1

      Mine is a set of 5x250gig 7200 rpm SATA drives. I've rebuilt the raid three times now, twice from within the OS (linux) and once from the RAID configuration BIOS. The BIOS configuration seems to take forever to rebuild (more than 24 hours) but from within the OS it only takes about 2 hours. All on a P-III 600.

      I have another hardware RAID 5 that is SCSI (6 x 72 gig @ 10k rpm), it rebuilds in about 45 min.

      The only software RAID that I have done was using much smaller drives (6 gig) and never needed to be rebuilt.

      Comments from this thread:
      http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/30/18 4256

      and specifically this comment:
      http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=127776&cid =10677428

      Indicate that rebuild times in software are not bad on a 1ghz system. We can extrapolate out that a rebuild of 4x250 gig drives should take less than 2 hours (calculating parody on 3 rather than 2 drives for 2x as much data). Unless you are using the drives or have problems with a controller, then you might have more problems.

    27. Re:NAS by 0racle · · Score: 2, Funny

      Everyone always assumes a huge datastore at home is for porn. It's just as likely that its for illegal downloads. Those movies and series take up a hell of a lot of space.

      --
      "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
    28. Re:NAS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh... might i point out that this may not be the best idea. With your (i assume) important files living on the same box as your internet gateway, you're one security hole away from "having a bad day". I would suggest separation of the tasks... keep your firewall as a dedicated box if possible.

      mr. Anonymous Coward /.

    29. Re:NAS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Why does everyone seem to want to store so much porn? Do you really go back and look at it all? If so that is a lot of porn to keep track of

      I am perfectly satisfied with the new stuff that shows up on the internet every day

    30. Re:NAS by ericdano · · Score: 1

      Really now. I think if your card had parity or XOR or whatever built in it would be faster, as most all the SATA RAID cards have. But the old 2400 Adaptec ATA ones seem not to have that......

      --
      It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
      I moderate therefore I rule!
      --
    31. Re:NAS by ottothecow · · Score: 1
      Mine runs on a TI-89

      Of course since it only has one I/O port, it is extremely slow. Basically I let it buffer data for 30 seconds and then switch the plugs and it ouputs the buffer to the switch.

      --
      Bottles.
    32. Re:NAS by porl · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure that smoothwall, being based on gnu/linux has NFS as standard, if not it would not be difficult to add anything required. The beauty of open source based products is that you are not just stuck with the 'factory defaults'. You can add or remove any part you don't like. Of course it all depends on how dirty you like your hands. :) At the very least, if smoothwall didn't handle the nfs exports by default a quick post on their forums should get you an answer on how to set it up.

    33. Re:NAS by WuphonsReach · · Score: 1

      Adaptec 2400 card (ATA)

      I think I owned one of those once... I was not impressed with it (dog slow, at everything). The Promise SX6000 was better, but still a bit pokey so now I simply run Software RAID on my linux servers.

      Most Software RAID implementations will rebuild at the rate of the hard drives, rather then the limit of the controller. (Even a 300-400Mhz CPU is enough.)

      A good tool to use on Linux is "atop" which allows you to see which hard drives are 100% utilized during a rebuild.

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
    34. Re:NAS by nolife · · Score: 1

      I have that same card on a W2K3 server. In the past 2 years, I've had to rebuild the array (a mirror set) at least 10 times and not once because of an actual HD failure. Every time the array gets marked as failed, the server locks up as well. Maybe I just have a bad card but this is definatly one instance where I'd be much better off with no raid and just use the drives themselves. The server data is backed up to tape anyway so that raid setup has caused many more problems then it saved so far.

      --
      Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
    35. Re:NAS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Up until last year, I was using a P100/64mb for squid on my home network. I have now consolidated that and my home router (Smoothwall) onto a single Pentium 200 with 128 MB ram. I have 3 network cards in it and I transfer about 2GB of internet traffic through it a day with no problems. I probably could have used the P100 but it was SCSI only and the old ass Seagate "Hawk" HD was starting to wine.

    36. Re:NAS by gyrogeerloose · · Score: 1

      If you're running OS X on your Macs, they should speak to the Unix server natively (that is, via NFS) since OS X is a essentially a slick GUI running over a Unix core and uses NFS networking. If you're running the "Classic" Mac OS, then check out The Columbia AppleTalk Package available from http://public.planetmirror.com/pub/cap/?fl=c among other places. It's an AppleTalk server daemon for Unix. I have to admit that I haven't used this one, though I hear it works well.

      I have used Netatalk, an AppleTalk server package for Linux and can attest to the fact that it works very well and is far faster than using a Mac running OS 9 or earlier as a server.

      --
      This ain't rocket surgery.
    37. Re:NAS by skogs · · Score: 1

      Once again, we'll go over this again. Call me Mr. Obvious.

      Repeat after me:
      Firewalls are not general purpose servers.
      Firewalls are not general purpose servers.
      Firewalls are not general purpose servers.

      Yes, of course it 'could' be done. But it shouldn't be done. The entire *Nix filesystem could put everything under /bin and get rid of /etc /sbin /root and the whole bit...but it would be silly, confusing, and just plain stupid.

      You either have a need for a firewall or you don't. If you don't give a damn, then use a general purpose server distro...not one that is stripped to the bone such as smoothwall and try to add functionality to it. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, clarkconnect is a good choice, allowing noobish PHBs to look at pretty web controls.

      Have a firewall and keep it that way.
      Have a general purpose server (or more) and keep them that way.

      Don't mix.

      Any jackass with a degree or urge to learn does not a sysadmin make. Learn and internalize these simple philosphical rules...and watch yourself be better.

      --
      Who is this that even the wind and the waves obey Him? Surely this computer must submit also!
    38. Re:NAS by drsmithy · · Score: 1
      Would a NAS device not require some pretty good processing power under a bit of a load?

      Not really. It would, however, need quite a bit of I/O bandwidth - something the vast majority of PCs have very little of.

      (This is assuming you want to serve up something over gig ethernet - at 100Mb ethernet speeds pretty much anything will be sufficient, although large array [re]build times will be long).

    39. Re:NAS by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Clarkconnect is what you are looking for, hands down.

    40. Re:NAS by drsmithy · · Score: 1
      I can't imagine how many days or weeks a software RAID 5 would take to rebuild........

      Probably less - most hardware RAID cards throttle the rebuild process by default (which you can also do in software RAID - at least on Linux).

      Added to that, the bottleneck in the rebuild process is the IO bandwidth, not the CPU power. Even something pitifully slow (by modern standards) like a 300Mhz P2 has a RAID5 checksumming speed well into the hundreds of megabytes a second.

      On any remotely modern CPU, the overhead of software RAID is miniscule to the point of irrelevance.

    41. Re:NAS by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Informative
      How big of an array though. I have 4 250 gig drives in a RAID 5 config. It seriously took 36+ hours to rebuild on a Pentium 4 2.4 gigahertz with 1 gig of ram.

      Firstly, make sure your rebuild isn't being throttled. cat /proc/sys/dev/raid/speed_limit_max will print out the maximum speed (in kb/sec) the array will rebuild at. Use something like echo 100000 > /proc/sys/dev/raid/speed_limit_max to set it suitably high so that the throttling won't occur.

      Secondly, the limiting factor in your rebuild speed will be (in decreasing order of likelihood) bus bandwith, individual disk performance, disk controller or driver bugs/quirks/limitations, CPU speed. Although if you have PCIe or PCI-X disk controllers (unlikely) you may hit limits in individual disk performance before you run out of bus bandwidth. With a 2.4Ghz P4 I can pretty confidently say your bottleneck will never be the CPU.

      In your case, your machine almost certainly has all the drives hanging off a single 33Mhz, 32 bit PCI bus. So the absolute upper limit on your array's performance is going to be around 120M/s, and that's assuming the machine isn't doing anything else except rebuilding the array. You're only ever likely to see this sort of performance off the array from long, sequential reads, however (dd if=/dev/md0 of=/dev/null type of thing).

      (This is a rough overview). With 4 drives, you have roughly 30M/s per drive maximum, so your best-case RAID rebuild speed will be about 30M/s - this is assuming your drives can sustain 30M/s for both reads and writes across their entire surface. Rebuilding a RAID5 array involves reading data and parity from N-1 drives and writing it to the Nth drive - in other words you have to completely reconstruct a single disk. At 30M/s, it should take about 250000/30/60 ~= 138 minutes to copy the 250G necessary to reconstruct that disk.

      (Tech-savvy readers should realise at this point why hardware RAID is theoretically faster than software RAID - particularly for average PCs and/or large numbers of drives - and why it has nothing to do with the "overhead" of calculating RAID5/6 parity.)

      Note that 138 minutes is a best case scenario, so it taking 36 hours could be explained by you using the system at the same time, automated system maintenance occurring, less-than-stellar drivers, etc, etc. With such a massive difference between "should be" and "was", however, I'd be examining the individual components pretty closely to see where the bottleneck is. What's the maximum performance you can get from each individual drive (use hdparm and dd). How about from the entire array ?

    42. Re:NAS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try SME Server from http://contribs.org/

      SME Server features include:

              * Sharing of a single Internet connection between multiple computers
              * A network firewall to protect against Internet intruders
              * A robust email server, which includes virus and spam filtering and webmail
              * File and print sharing
              * Web application server, including support for MySQL, Perl and PHP
              * Secure remote access
              * Supported languages: Deutsch, English, Español, Français and Italiano, with more on the way
              * Complete binary compatibility with the leading Linux server distribution
              * and much more

      all managed through an intuitive web interface

  2. Software by 9mm+Censor · · Score: 1

    Isnt that a software package?

  3. Ooh by MaestroSartori · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I've been looking for something like this for a while now. I was contemplating one of those pre-built consumer level NAS (like the Terastation), but a nice tailored setup like this could tempt me to build my own. I need storage space for samples, I make lots of music with them :)

    1. Re:Ooh by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

      Agreed. I handle a lot of MiniDV and DVCAM material (works fine over 100MB ethernet) on multiple machines, so something like this looks pretty appealing price-wise.

      --
      Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
    2. Re:Ooh by An+dochasac · · Score: 1

      I've been looking for something like this also, but I've decided to roll my own using OpenSolaris ZFS as a native software RAID filesystem, accessed via Samba, NFS and Rsync.

  4. I know it costs money.... by j2crux · · Score: 5, Informative

    But I fell in love with something called a Kuro-box. Here's a link, http://kurobox.com/revolution/what.html From the site: The KuroBox is a small-footprint Linux-based embedded platform for a personal server. The current incarnation of the KuroBox, the KuroBox/HG, sports a 266Mhz PowerPC processor, 128MB of RAM, 2 USB 2.0 Ports, and a 10/100/1000Mbit network interface. I got mine off ebay (with a 250 hdd) for ~$200, and I couldnt be happier!

    --
    j^2
    1. Re:I know it costs money.... by sholden · · Score: 3, Informative

      There are a bunch of consumer level devices designed to have a USB hard drive plugged into them and export SMB shares from it. They are all around $80 or so. I have this one: http://www1.linksys.com/products/product.asp?prid= 640 but there are a bunch of ones by other companies.

      It runs linux out of the box, but I've flashed mine to run a full debian system, only 32MB of RAM is the main draw back. But its attached to 3 USB drives in a software RAID, and a CD storage device, and a thumb drive (for the main system - so the disks don't get hit by every cron job). Plus plugging my digital camera into it downloads all the photos into dated directories on the 'photos' share. It also serves some web pages, mainly a cgi interface to eject disks from the CD storage device.

      Works well for me, and it's a reasonably cheap and pysically small (and very underpowered CPU/memory wise) linux machine with 2 USB ports and a network port.

    2. Re:I know it costs money.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Practically the same device is marketed as the Buffalo Linkstation.

    3. Re:I know it costs money.... by david.given · · Score: 1
      There are a bunch of consumer level devices designed to have a USB hard drive plugged into them and export SMB shares from it. They are all around $80 or so. I have this one: http://www1.linksys.com/products/product.asp?prid= 640 but there are a bunch of ones by other companies.

      *nods enthusiastically*

      I've got one of these too --- it's awesome. It's my house server; it's got 250GB of disk, and it does firewall and routing services with two ethernet interfaces, it's my internal file server via NFS, my outward facing HTTP, IMAP and SMTP servers, and basically performs beyond the call of duty pretty much non-stop. It's also a box 10cm x 12cm x 2cm with no moving parts, and consumes a negligable amount of power. As I said, it's awesome.

      The only problem with it is that 32MB of RAM is not, frankly, enough. Thanks to the magic of swap it copes fine, but if you try to make it do anything that involves allocating reasonable amounts of memory it starts to chug. aptitude, in particular, involves big datasets and is horribly slow --- it takes two minutes to start up (in non-GUI mode).

      It is upgradable; but only if you're good at replacing surface-mount RAM chips. Which I'm not. At some point I'm going to try and get hold of a fattened one, but I'm definitely going to get someone else to do it for me.

    4. Re:I know it costs money.... by Pacifix · · Score: 1

      Question: How did you get a second ethernet interface on there? USB dongle?

    5. Re:I know it costs money.... by david.given · · Score: 1
      Question: How did you get a second ethernet interface on there? USB dongle?

      Yup --- an RTL8150 widget. It Just Worked, too.

    6. Re:I know it costs money.... by ctr2sprt · · Score: 1
      What I want is an ethernet-based (iSCSI) consumer-grade SAN. I want to buy a box with five or six drive bays, pack it full of 500GB SATA disks, and then send it over the network to my desktop. That would be perfect for me. As an add-on, there could also be a head unit that plugs into the disk box (or many disk boxes on a consumer-grade gigabit switch) and does RAID, SMB, NFS, whatever.

      I don't understand why there aren't any products like this. I can buy an adapter that goes into 3 5.25" drive bays and turns them into 5 3.5" hot-swap drive bays for about $80. To turn SATA (or IDE) into iSCSI, each box would need a CPU, but nothing too powerful. It would also need a gigabit ethernet port, but those are cheap nowadays. The head unit would be more expensive, but I think $200-$300 would be a reasonable price. (On-topic: FreeNAS could power the head unit.)

      There must be someone making this.

    7. Re:I know it costs money.... by drsmithy · · Score: 1
      What I want is an ethernet-based (iSCSI) consumer-grade SAN. I want to buy a box with five or six drive bays, pack it full of 500GB SATA disks, and then send it over the network to my desktop.

      Something like this ?

    8. Re:I know it costs money.... by KlaymenDK · · Score: 1



      This exact functionality is very high up on my wants list -- how did you accomplish it? Was it pre-built-in to the sw, or is it a separate package?

    9. Re:I know it costs money.... by KlaymenDK · · Score: 1
      Plugging my digital camera into it downloads all the photos into dated directories on the 'photos' share.

      This exact functionality is very high up on my wants list -- how did you accomplish it? Was it pre-built-in to the sw, or is it a separate package?
    10. Re:I know it costs money.... by sholden · · Score: 1

      I run debian on it, so I just copied my ancient shell script for copying files off my camera via gphoto and added a hotplug rule to kick it off. I've never used the various other linux installs (which are more minor tweaks to the factory image and mightn't have the components I used).

      I added: /usr/local/bin/archive_photos

      to the end of /etc/hotplug/usb/libgphoto2

      archive_photos is:

      #!/bin/sh
      PATH="/usr/bin:/bin:$PATH"
      TARGET="/mnt/data/shares/photos/images"
      VTARGET="/mnt/data/shares/videos"
      SOURCE="/mnt/data/shares/photos/download"

      cd "$SOURCE" || exit 1; /usr/bin/gphoto2 --get-all-files
      chown data.data *
      for i in *.[Jj][Pp][Gg]
      do
        date=`jhead "$i" | awk '/Date\/Time/ {print $3}'| sed 's/:/./g'`
        mkdir "$TARGET/$date" 2>/dev/null
        if [ -e "$TARGET/$date/$i" ]
        then
          base=`basename $i .jpg`
          tail=jpg
          if [ "$base" = "$i" ]
          then
            base=`basename $i .JPG`
            tail=JPG
          fi
          cnt=2
          while test -e "$TARGET/$date/$base.$cnt.$tail"
          do
            cnt=`expr $cnt + 1`
          done
          mv "$i" "$TARGET/$date/$base.$cnt.$tail"
        else
          mv "$i" "$TARGET/$date/."
        fi
      done

      for i in *.[Aa][vV][iI]
      do
                      mv "$i" "$VTARGET/$i"
      done

      It's never not worked, but I'm sure there's a case somewhere which will crash it - which is why there's no "delete the files from the camera" step - I do that manually after seeing the photos on the network share. The obvious case is the disk being full which will stop the mkdir from succeeding and hence the photos from copying. However, the usage criteria for me was "can the wife use it" and she can so I declared it "good enough". And yes there should be more quoting of the basename backticks, and the $i bits at the top of the if block, but the camera never puts spaces in file names so I got lazy.

      My camera is a crappy canon thing which seems to need gphoto, if your camera exports a standard file system it might be simpler.

      Obviously, I had to install gphoto2, hotplug, and jhead.

      Apparently my comment has to much whitespace so hopefully this paragraph will up the non-whitespace content a little. Or not, I guess I need even more then. Still not enough this is ridiculous. Oh well I guess I don't get to post what is potentially a useful comment because the website filters comments in a retarded manner. Seriously this is stupid. OK I'm trimming my nice indentation on the damn shell script... And it wants to put the gphoto2 run on the same line as the exit above it no matter what I do, ; added - my script uses a newline instead :)

  5. Dedicated solutions are often better. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    What most people forget about these kinds of systems is that they have fairly hefty power consumption. Until the past year or so, desktop manufacturers placed very little emphasis on truly minimizing power consumption. They do manage to hold it within reason, but often that's no enough.

    Dedicated storage systems are often designed in such a way so as to minimize the amount of power they consume. Some use several ARM or MIPS CPUs, which can offer suitable processing capabilities without the immense energy consumption of even a single x86 chip. The dedicated hardware itself is designed so as to eliminate unnecessary circuitry.

    When it comes to users who have hundreds of these machines, the energy savings of a dedicated system often far outweigh the initial savings of going with a PC/FreeNAS-style combination. Even smaller-scale users, who may only have a single machine, will notice the savings if they choose to use their system for several years.

    1. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by EllynGeek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Can you give some examples? I don't see where you're going to minimize power consumption no matter what you use, because your drive array is going to require a good-quality power supply that can handle multiple 12v lines. You can run it headless, but hard drives are power-hungry no matter what.

      --

      we will end no whine before its time

    2. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by Neurotoxic666 · · Score: 1
      It would be very interesting to see an "energy saving" hack for old PCs. Because, like many of us, I have a lot of older machines laying around. They're my old PCs or were given to me by clients, family, friends, etc.

      It's sad they're not being used. But I wouldn't just plug the whole bunch either, the electricity bill would be ridiculous.

      Does anyone know of an easy way to reduce CPU/disks power consumption? These machines could definately serve some purpose, but they shouldn't end up costing more than a new PC either.

      --
      You are more than the sum of what you consume. Desire is not an occupation.
    3. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by harrkev · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is called "underclocking"...

      If you have a "overclocking" mobo, you can probably quite easily underclock it as well. If, on the other hand, your mobo says "Dell" on it, then you probably don't have access to the BIOS screens necessary to do that. You can find Windows software that might be able to do the job (depending upon chipset), but who runs Windows for a NAS server?
      But, with that being said, modern hardware is better. Taking an Athlon 64 and cranking the clock speed down by a factor of 10 and dropping the core voltage is likely to be a lot more efficient than taking an old 400MHz P-2 and reducing the clock speed by 1/2. So, you throw more expensive hardware at the problem in order to consume less power.

      This is just and educated guess, though. I am not an expert.

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    4. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1
      If you have a "overclocking" mobo, you can probably quite easily underclock it as well.
      I tried to underclock my Athlon XP 2100+ the other day. Obviously the multiplier is locked, so I figured I'd just turn down the FSB (maybe to 100 MHz instead of 133, or something). I have a Gigabyte 7VRXP motherboard. To my surprise and dismay, even though you can change the FSB, you can only adjust it up but not down! The minimum is 133MHz. Stupid Gigabyte...
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    5. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by harrkev · · Score: 1

      Not that I have tried recently, but I thought that the multiplier is only locked not to go ABOVE a certain value. I thought that you could always go down. At least that is my experience with Athlon 64s. I have never tried with an Athlon XP.

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    6. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by wiml · · Score: 1

      It's also often the case that "dedicated hardware" is just a PC in a fancy case, maybe with some extra fans or a redundant PSU or something. Oh, and some blue LEDs.

    7. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      The older ones, like mine, were locked completely -- can't go up or down.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    8. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1
      Some use several ARM or MIPS CPUs, which can offer suitable processing capabilities without the immense energy consumption of even a single x86 chip.

      A regular Pentium 4 draws on the order of 65 watts. At $0.12/kWh, that's .065kW*24h/d*.12$/kWh*365d/y = $68 dollars per year. Even if the custom NAS's CPU runs on air, you'd have to run the Pentium system for a long time to make up the difference in cost.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    9. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by cwgmpls · · Score: 1
      Does anyone know of an easy way to reduce CPU/disks power consumption?

      Isn't the power supply the main consumer of power in a PC? I mean an old PCs 400 watt power supply is running full time no matter how much power the CPU or disks are actually using. Is there some way to reduce the amount of energy being eaten by the power supply?

    10. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by Agripa · · Score: 1

      The rating for the power supply is based on maximum continuous load and not the actual load drawn from the power line. If it says 400 watts, then you can have some combination of loads on the outputs drawing up to 400 watts total presumably without failure. The actual power drawn from the line input is proportional to the output load plus whatever inefficiencies (typically 75 to 85 percent) the power supply itself has. Power supplies normally loose efficiency at very light loads however so it pays to only use a power supply as large as necessary after taking into account worst case conditions. The effect is monotonic so even with this loss of efficiency, lowering the output power will always lower the input power.

      If your 400 watt power supply was ALWAYS drawing 400 watts, then at light loads you would expect the exhaust temperature to be sky high as it dissipates the energy not being used. Luckily, this is not the case.

    11. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by kurtdg · · Score: 1

      You shouldn't look at the thermal design power to estimate average power consumption in a SOHO NAS, because the CPU will be idle 99.99% of the time. Look at the power consumption in deep sleep mode.

      The page you link to are not regular Pentium 4s, these are embedded versions. They may be lowest-power bins harvested off the regular production runs. The thread was about old PC's, and you won't (yet) find many 90nm Pentium 4s in those, let alone embedded low-power versions.

      Once you've put a regular Pentium 4 into a PC with a motherboard, memory, network, disk, fans, and a very inefficient power supply unit, it'll be over 150W, even when idle. If you intend to use that exclusively as a SOHO NAS 24/7, then your garden-variety 20 Watt, $150 dedicated NAS will pay back itself in about a year by lower power consumption alone, never mind it being more environmentally friendly, taking up less space, and making less noise.

    12. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by BestNicksRTaken · · Score: 1

      lowering the fsb would be a bad idea anyway, you'd slow down your ram and perhaps more importantly the pci bus - so slower disk and network, not good for a nas!

      lowering the multiplier is the better option, as that just slows the cpu which is using the power, of course most athlons are locked, some tbirds weren't and the xp-mobiles aren't (i have both).

      i expect a 7200rpm drive would use most of the power in a pc anyway.

      --
      #include <sig.h>
    13. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1
      If you intend to use that exclusively as a SOHO NAS 24/7, then your garden-variety 20 Watt, $150 dedicated NAS will pay back itself in about a year by lower power consumption alone, never mind it being more environmentally friendly, taking up less space, and making less noise.

      With my earlier estimate, (150-20)/1000*24*365*.12 = $137 dollars per year. Where are you finding these dirt-cheap NASes?

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    14. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1
      and perhaps more importantly the pci bus
      I was under the impression that on everything newer than a 486 (or original Pentium or something) the PCI bus was clocked independently of the FSB. At least, I'm fairly certain it is on my motherboard, since it's designed to be able to overclock the FSB without screwing up the bus (and, IIRC, I could independently overclock the AGP bus, if I were so inclined).
      i expect a 7200rpm drive would use most of the power in a pc anyway.
      Really? I could have sworn that my Athlon XP is 50+ watts. I didn't realize a single hard drive could even come close to that, let alone exceed it!

      By the way, what did I do to deserve being "Foe"'d?
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    15. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Informative

      What most people forget about these kinds of systems is that they have fairly hefty power consumption. Until the past year or so, desktop manufacturers placed very little emphasis on truly minimizing power consumption. They do manage to hold it within reason, but often that's no enough.

      Dedicated storage systems are often designed in such a way so as to minimize the amount of power they consume.

      Who told you that? Maybe for the little tiny junior-grade ones that you can buy from linksys and whatnot... but if you have more than a couple of hard drives, odds are that the product you're dealing with is made up of a bunch of commodity PC components in a custom rackmount case. This is no less true if it's a 1U box than 4U.

      For instance I've got a 1U Maxtor server that came with maybe a terabyte (it's got four drive bays) and it's a 1U Socket 370 Celeron system.

      Nothing except the cutesy little baby NAS devices is designed to be especially low power - and if you're using software RAID, you really want a grip of CPU power, especially if you're doing RAID5.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    16. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Every single one of my Socket 7 and Super 7 systems had a PCI clock derived from my CPU core clock. I had at least one slot system (a P2) that was clocked the same way.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    17. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Maybe the change was more recent than I thought, then.

      Either that or I'm wrong entirely, anyway! I ought to check...

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    18. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might want to check for some dipswitches to set which block it is in.
      I have a GB 7VAXP that has DIP settings for 100, 133, and 166, and in the BIOS it lets me tweak from 100-132, 133-165, 166-? depending on the dip siwtch setting. (Right now I have a Athlon 2400+/133 FSB running as a 1800+/100 FSB because of some stability problems (MMX, 3dNOW, ect found cause seg faults, no problems since lowering speed.)

      Manual link found on GB site here

      CPU CLK dip found on page 13.

    19. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

      I think it's also worth pointing out that quite often, the ratings of many cheap power supplies are nothing but a dirty, dirty lie. Chances are, if you try to actually draw 400 watts from a "400W" house-brand PS that you picked up for $30, bad things are going to happen. At the very least, the power it produces may not be very clean. At worst, it might overheat.

      I've never seen a graph of power supply efficiency as a function of percentage-of-maximum load, but I suspect it would look like a bell curve of some sort. The efficiency is pretty low at very low load, because the power supply itself has a certain "overhead" that exists, no matter what you're drawing from it ... then as you get into its optimal operating range, it's reasonably efficient .. but then I suspect as you get close to its rated maximum (or less, for shitty supplies), I bet it drops back off again pretty quickly.

      I don't know what methods manufacturers use to claim the ratings on their power supplies, but it definitely isn't any definition of "maximum continuous load" that I've ever heard.

      If I was going to put together a system, for whatever purpose, be it a workstation or a NAS or a firewall box, the one thing I would not want to skimp on is the power supply. That doesn't mean just going and getting one that's over-rated for the purpose you want to use it for, it means buying one that's not a total piece of crap to begin with, but also which isn't being redlined the whole time.

      I've seen quite a few people put together nice custom PCs with very nice components, but then toss a no-name PS in there and have it burn out. I find this very odd, since in my experience it's the power supplies that can have the longest service life: that mobo you bought today is going to be scrap metal in a few years, but a good PS today could still be running a system 5-10 years from now.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    20. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by BestNicksRTaken · · Score: 1

      "By the way, what did I do to deserve being "Foe"'d?"

      not sure, maybe you disagreed with one of my posts, and with a completely wrong argument?

      my athlon xp-m 2600+ and pentium4-3e motherboards have the fsb tied to the pci bus at least.

      maybe you're talking about a mac?

      --
      #include <sig.h>
    21. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1
      not sure, maybe you disagreed with one of my posts, and with a completely wrong argument?
      Naw, that couldn't be it -- I don't make wrong arguments! ; )
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    22. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by BestNicksRTaken · · Score: 1

      "Naw, that couldn't be it -- I don't make wrong arguments! ; )"

      that's earned you a nuturalisation!

      --
      #include <sig.h>
    23. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by aaronl · · Score: 1

      Just a though, but most of the multiplier locked chips that I've seen would drop you down to a lower clock speed. My Athlon 2600+ drops down and is IDed as an 1800 if I mess with the multiplier, for example. It's worth a shot!

    24. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      The 2600+ was the generation of chips after mine (I forget what it was called, but the 2100+ was the fastest in the series). My chip came before AMD started unlocking lower-than-spec multiplier settings. Besides, I don't think my motherboard supports changing the multiplier anyway (again, because it came in the time between when multipliers started being locked and when they became unlocked for lower speeds again).

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    25. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by kurtdg · · Score: 1

      That was not including the HDD.

      An Icy Box NAS1000 at my local retailer is 150 eur, which includes 21% VAT. It's a compact, decent looking alu box for a single 3.5 inch disk. The name is somewhat deceptive, it does not talk Gbit Ethernet, just Fast Ethernet and USB2. I have no idea how it performs, but it is bound to perform mediocre at best, due to the 100Mbit interface.

    26. Re:Dedicated solutions are often better. by Agripa · · Score: 1

      I agree completely about the reliablility issues. For myself, I would tend to derate any consumer or industrial PC power supply by 2/3rds. Like all things that make a transition to consumer space, marketing and poor engineering takes it toll.

      As far as efficiency, for switching power supplies it tends to either be maximum at maximum load or only decrease slightly. It would be very unusual to find a switching power supply that had a significant efficiency decrease at maximum load because of cooling issues. Any loss do to efficiency has to be directly dissapated by the power supply itself and to have the efficiency go down as the power goes up would quickly lead to power dissapation issues. For some designs there IS a large load that could cause this but it would be above the rated continuous load.

  6. User Security Gives MS A Run For Its Money by doctorcisco · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is virtually no user security. Any authenticated user has full rights to all data on the system. Fine for home, but until they get user security figured out, not ready for anything more than that. And given that it wants to play nice with Windoze, *Nix, and Apple, the security is gonna be the hard part. *NIX without maddeningly granular security ... who'da thunk? doc

    1. Re:User Security Gives MS A Run For Its Money by birder · · Score: 1

      For a moment it looked like a nice SnapServer clone but the lack of user security is disappointing and sort of boggling this late in its development. AD/LDAP integration is pretty straightfoward these days

    2. Re:User Security Gives MS A Run For Its Money by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      This does not differ from most corporate setups: actually securing SMB is difficult enough, and actually securing NFS is historically a very bad joke. It's called "No F***ing Security" for a reason.

      A cheap box like this can actually help, by providing good guides on how to properly authenticate the server, and not forcing users to home-brew their SSH or Kerberos or NFSv4 or Samba or Netatalk setups from scratch, on OS's that do some of them well but not others.

  7. love it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have freenas running on an old P2 box, with a couple of 300GB drives in it. Runs nice and backs up my windows pcs, linux box, and mac in my home for less than the cost of a packaged NAS. Apparently it can do RAID1,0 but I've had problems bringing back a RAID1 drive, but it's free.

  8. Damn Small Linux by Leadmagnet · · Score: 1

    I have been using DSL ( www.damnsmalllinux.org/ ) for the same job, but I am willing to give this a shot. I like the ability to use CIFS so the all Windows boxes on my home network can share data & printer

    --
    http://www.leadmagnet.50megs.com
  9. Of course! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    FreeNAS is necessary, so that all the little Windoze boxes can have a share for viri and other malware ;-)

  10. OpenFiler? by Gothmolly · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How is this any different than the OpenFiler Project?

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:OpenFiler? by pedalman · · Score: 1
      How is this any different than the OpenFiler Project [openfiler.org]?
      Or NASLite?
      http://www.serverelements.com/
      --
      Friends don't let friends line-dance.
    2. Re:OpenFiler? by thule · · Score: 1

      I had not heard of Openfiler before. It looks pretty interesting. Differences from FreeNAS that I noticed are:

      o Linux based
      o iSCSI target and initiator (SAN) support

      I've been using the "Enterprise iSCSI Target" for Linux for a while now and it works pretty good. I serve up LVM slices to a Windows 2000 Server without trouble. The combination of EIT and LVM provide a lot of high end SAN features.

      With redards to SAN features, I'm really looking forward to a unification of SCSI target drivers on Linux (http://stgt.berlios.de/) so that Linux can serve up LVM block devices over fibre channel. This would make Linux a very good platform for a SAN operating system.

    3. Re:OpenFiler? by un1xl0ser · · Score: 2, Informative

      OpenFiler is based on CentOS 3. It does NOT fit in a small footprint. The point of FreeNAS wasn't to have a different installer and a web interface to polish it up, it was for a small footprint.

      --
      v4sw6PU$hw6ln6pr4F$ck 4/6$ma3+6u7LNS$w2m4l7U$i2e4+7en6a2X h
    4. Re:OpenFiler? by harrkev · · Score: 1

      NASLite is a "free taste" of commercial software. They give you just enough to show you that it works. If you want any extra features, you have to pony up some money.

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    5. Re:OpenFiler? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      use freebsd - it is already working

    6. Re:OpenFiler? by mukund · · Score: 1

      Naslite sucks compared to Openfiler. This is why Naslite tries to siphon off Openfiler search traffic by placing ads on google on searches related to Openfiler. Too bad that users who search for what they want know better. Naslite is a closed product and is by far inferior to Openfiler's features.

      --
      Banu
    7. Re:OpenFiler? by mukund · · Score: 1

      You're wrong in saying that it needs a base CentOS distribution and then installs on top of it. Openfiler is a standalone installable distribution. Please read about Openfiler's features and please decide for yourself how FreeNAS compares to it. I'm not saying FreeNAS doesn't have a market (the home market).. however you should be careful comparing cars and buses.

      --
      Banu
    8. Re:OpenFiler? by micsaund · · Score: 1

      FreeNAS will do RAID (I use mirroring for my recently-built home server). AFAIK, NASLite does not appear to do any form of RAID.

      Granted the RAID system in FreeNAS is not the best (uses vinum IIRC) and, in my case, requires me to force the disks "up" after a reboot (an apparently common problem with vinum), it works flawlessly and the goal is to not have to reboot.

      The Openfiler looks very cool and full-featured, but it's definitely NOT a small footprint. I was looking to build a machine where the only disks were the storage volumes. Using FreeNAS, I installed to a 128MB CompactFlash card and then have two 120GB drives mirrored for the data. With Openfiler, I would have had to install a third drive to boot the OS.

      --
      Pinball, arcade video, tech and more: www.micsaund.com
    9. Re:OpenFiler? by un1xl0ser · · Score: 1

      I never said that it needs a base installation. I said that it was based on CentOS... which is correct.

      Openfiler is a pre-configured copy of CentOS. I assume that how they do this is with a series of packages in the base distribution. It has a lot of features, because it is a full Linux distro.

      In FreeNAS, the OS is a kernel and a compressed (RO) ramdisk that is normally stored on a CF/SD card. The whole OS takes up less than 16mb of space. The kernel boots and loads the OS into RAM. It then loads the configuration file.

      I am currently looking for a home NAS solution, and read about both recently. Please let me know if you think that I am incorrect, but this is what I got by reading the respective websites.

      --
      v4sw6PU$hw6ln6pr4F$ck 4/6$ma3+6u7LNS$w2m4l7U$i2e4+7en6a2X h
    10. Re:OpenFiler? by thule · · Score: 1

      Last I checked FreeBSD's iSCSI target wasn't as mature as Linux's. I'll take another look. I did notice that FreeBSD had a scsi_target in 4.7 days, but I don't remember 4.7 having a nice, integrated, LVM like Linux did at the time.

    11. Re:OpenFiler? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Naslite is a closed product and is by far inferior to Openfiler's features.

      I guess the name "NASLite" wouldn't have anything to do with less features? And If not, why do you think they named it that?

    12. Re:OpenFiler? by Eivind+Eklund · · Score: 1
      The volume manager Vinum has been in FreeBSD since the 3.x days.

      Eivind.

      --
      Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
  11. How a real network file system? by GlobalEcho · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I can set up Samba, etc. on just about any box. What defies me is setting up OpenAFS. How about a server that supports OpenAFS or Coda?

    1. Re:How a real network file system? by hirschma · · Score: 1

      I second this! Even a really good tutorial that's "...for idiots" style would be helpful. Seems that distributed filesystems are becoming less used now that things like SANs exist.

      jh

  12. Great, but typically UNIX by Graboid · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As others have said, been there done that with Linux/BSD. Nice to have a dedicated package, but it's definitely not for the casual user and requires dedicated drives/machines (as one would expect for RAID).

    I was amused that he could screw up the installation so easily by just creating a local user and it lacked auto-configuration. Imagine that in a review of a commercial product. "Easy to use and install, but it locked me out of my system and required a re-install and it couldn't find my network card".

    Fact is, folks just expect open source to be a pain in the ass to work with and require tweaking or extreme attention to detail. It's almost a right of passage. And users accept and embrace it on a scale they would NEVER accept from a commercial product - particularly 'evil' Microsoft.

    Anyway, nice open source addition, but it definitely belongs in the open source group (as in not-ready-for-normal-people group).

    1. Re:Great, but typically UNIX by chengmi · · Score: 0

      When you pay hundreds of dollars for software, you buy the right to complain about every little thing. But with OSS, it's (usually) FREE--want your cake and eat it too?

    2. Re:Great, but typically UNIX by fontkick · · Score: 1

      I'm a graphic designer with fairly basic computer skills (no programming beyond HTML). I setup FreeNAS on a spare PC (1.6GHz HP Pavilion) about 4 weeks ago. The setup took a few tries, but it wasn't that hard. I spent about two hours total on it. FreeNAS is much easier to setup than a Windows server, which I tried to setup and just never got working with the Macs. OSX file sharing is usable but way too slow when you try to connect to them from a PC.

      The FreeNAS machine has been up the entire time, except for one building-wide power outage. Boot time is extremely fast. It serves files incredibly well to both the PC's and the Macs (OSX) on the same network. Network speed for file transfers is fine on a 10/100 network (running at 100). I like FreeNAS a lot, our productivity has gone way up because of it. Nice to see it getting mentioned on Slashdot.

  13. Re:Neat but.. by WindBourne · · Score: 3, Interesting

    And yet, small appliances like this will probably win the day. In the end, they will run on top of xen in their own environment and be easily upgradable.

    IOW, this is a good time for Linux to create small appliances like this targeting a xen base.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  14. Humm... by wolenczak · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What's new about this? Been doing that for years!, Where's the difference between this box and a linuxbox with samba/nfs/fstab properly configured?

    I would think that a home NAS is a case where I can toss in any spare harddrive i find, plug it to the network and that's it. Not a whooooole PC.

    1. Re:Humm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where's the difference between this box and a linuxbox with samba/nfs/fstab properly configured?

      The interface for this is easy to use? I haven't checked this out yet, but the interface looks identical to the one for m0n0wall, and it would be cool if it is as easy to configure as m0n0wall is. Maybe it is made by the same people, I don't know. I haven't used it yet, but I think that it is worth checking out, unless of course you need a smaller or more power efficient device.

  15. Cheap hardware anyone? by sbrown123 · · Score: 2

    I want a network attached storage device for home but prices vary from $500 to $2000+. I also want to run my own apps like Subversion. But I can't find any cheap, compact, and power efficient hardware for doing this. Any ideas?

    1. Re:Cheap hardware anyone? by skiflyer · · Score: 1

      Yeah, old. Lots of ma & pop computer repair shops will have old desktops for sale for a song... the only problem is you could also just go buy a brand new $300 dell, so you gotta kinda pick and choose. The key on these systems is not to get stuck on the "just upgrade this" mentality we computer folks are so fond of.

      I'm running exactly what you're describing on old p3-500's without a hitch... they're free to the office they went in because they were decommisioned from service, and rather than donating away, we recycled.

    2. Re:Cheap hardware anyone? by sbrown123 · · Score: 1

      I have several old computers but I avoid using them for several reasons:

      1. they are rather large.
      2. they are noisy.
      3. they consume too much power. I want to run a NAS 24-7.

      Someone mention the KuroBox a few posts up from me. The KuroBox looks like what I am looking for but I am reading threads for other options.

    3. Re:Cheap hardware anyone? by really? · · Score: 1

      Unless I need to do some seriously CPU intensive stuff - VPN concentrator, encryption, etc - I find that EPIA boards are almost always the answer. (Note to would be moderators: please observe the use of "almost" before you start bitching.)
      My most recent "standard setup" includes EPIA M1s in Aspire cube cases - http://atic.ca/index.php?page=LongDesc&sku=27476. Use a LianLI EX-23B for the RAID drives and the space inside the case for the system HD, and you're ready to fly.
      YMMV, and all that.

      --

      "Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead." A. Huxley
    4. Re:Cheap hardware anyone? by kv9 · · Score: 1
      1. they are rather large. 2. they are noisy. 3. they consume too much power. I want to run a NAS 24-7.

      bullshit. i've got an old sff as a server and ipaq as a workstation -- very small, can't hear them, draw ~30W each.

    5. Re:Cheap hardware anyone? by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Fry's has been advertising a PC with an AMD Geode CPU for $150. Presumably it's preloaded with Linux, so it shouldn't have problems with drivers and it's in a normal mid-tower case so presumably it has room for an extra hard drive or two. It should use very little power too.

      Otherwise, I'd say build a system around a Via Epia, but those are about $100+ just for the mobo/CPU, and might not be able to beat the Geode in terms of power consumption.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    6. Re:Cheap hardware anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Yea - this company sells a variety of NAS and SAN solutions but also sells hardware. They are Authorized NetApp Resellers. Disk drives, filers, chassis, servers, computer hardware to the max with most brands like EMC, NetApp (of course), Cisco, Seagate, etc. Anyway, these guys offer refurbished hardware as well as new, so you should be able to get a good price.

    7. Re:Cheap hardware anyone? by Malc · · Score: 1

      Linksys NSLU2. Slow throughput though. Also, it doesn't spin hard drives down. There's a decent community around this device, which will allow you to replace the firmware and then start installing your choice of services.

    8. Re:Cheap hardware anyone? by Lord+of+Ironhand · · Score: 1

      Hear hear! I'm currently using an EPIA TC10000 as main home server and am extremely happy with it (providing all the "usual" services). Onboard 12V DC-DC PSU means I can simply connect a car battery in parallel to have a UPS and avoid all the inefficiency that normally comes with a UPS (mains -> transformer -> inverter -> PSU -> mainboard). Power consumption is truly minimal and so are noise levels, and I can't say I've had any stability problems even at longer periods of high loads.

    9. Re:Cheap hardware anyone? by nolife · · Score: 1

      Do you mean a car battery connected to the output side of the PSU? I can see where that would work but what about when that car battery voltage gets low because of a cell shortage or when the power was out for a long time and it discharged. I'd think you would have to have some type of current limiting device to prevent overloading the PSU in those situations when the power comes back on. I believe most lead acid batteries have an internal resistence of far less then 1 ohm (some even 10-30 miliohm) so even a 1 or 2 volt difference between the car battery and the PSU output would cause the battery to draw a huge amount of current. You may already know this but Voltage/Resistance=Current so you can put some numbers in there if you'd like. This issue is not the case for other rechargable batteries because they have higher internal resistance so you could get by without one. That low resistance is why lead acid batteries are prefered in many applications that draw huge short term demands because they can deliver huge amounts of current as well. Of course I have no hard numbers and obviously your setup works so maybe I am just over analyzing it.

      --
      Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
    10. Re:Cheap hardware anyone? by Lord+of+Ironhand · · Score: 1
      You're right in pointing out the possibility of overloading the PSU with this setup, however I took this problem into account and chose an external PSU that can provide enough current to power the server as well as provide a charge current for the battery after it has been ran down by a long power outage. The battery itself is currently in a good state and in addition I test it regularly, so I don't foresee problems there.

      Saying that, this UPS solution is currently more low-tech than what I'd want for the future. I'm planning to add some circuitry to improve handling of various problems, as well as to add other devices and/or batteries that share the same 12 V rail.

    11. Re:Cheap hardware anyone? by WuphonsReach · · Score: 1

      Well, there's a few options...

      VIA EPIA. You can get them fanless (600MHz for sure, maybe the next step up now). I have an old 600MHz C3 1GB RAM with a pair of 300GB 5400rpm HDs in a SFF sized case. Limited expandability, the CPU is a bit slow, and you pay a bit more for the hardware. Plus, the SFF case that I used uses 40mm fans in the back which make more noise then the rest of the system. It makes for a nice music server (running Gentoo) but is still a bit of a white elephant. Probably pretty power efficient though.

      Build your own. Antec p180 / Sonata / p160 cases combined with a low-end Athlon64 motherboard / CPU / RAM bundle from MWave. I have a p160 case with (8) hard drives, a single-core Athlon64 and 4GB of RAM. It runs Samba, PostgreSQL, SubVersion, Apache plus DNS/DHCP service for my home LAN. I have multiple arrays setup (300GB RAID1, 300GB RAID1, 700GB RAID5, 200GB JBOD) which gives me a lot of flexibility.

      I've never put the kill-a-watt meter on the large p160 server, but I'd imagine that it doesn't do too bad (other then having 8 HDs inside). But if you want to save power, the first rule of thumb is to minimize components (i.e. one server instead of two, one high desnity drive instead of multiple low density drives).

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
  16. OK, a serious question by caudron · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Tell me why we don't see cheap network appliances at Walmart and Bestbuy that accept USB drives and printers all in one convenient box.

    I see the "cheap" drive sharing boxes and the "cheap" printer sharing boxes but, given how easy it is to set up SAMBA on a VERY low end device, why don't we see any that do both?

    And while I'm on the subject, why don't we see cheap server appliances for other services? Is it lack of market demand that keeps me from being about the buy a low power, cheap apache server in a box the size of a cable modem? Same for proftpd and squirrelmail/postfix/mailman? Seriously, I know the market is limited, but it's hardly non-existent! Especially if they made it easy to set up and use, then ANYONE could be an end point. That is the real promise fo the Internet to me.

    And before I get those "just do it yourself on old hardware" replies, I have already done so and posted the how-to's for others. What I'm asking for is not an easy way to set up apache. Apache is pretty easy out of the box. I'm asking for an easy, low-power apache appliance that EVEN a relatively non-technical person can set up and use. Seems cool to me. Especially coupled with a cheap DNS appliance box.

    These services beg for hardware modularization.

    Tom Caudron
    http://tom.digitalelite.com/

    --
    -Tom
    1. Re:OK, a serious question by jabelar · · Score: 1

      The combination of print server and file server makes a lot of sense. However, the difficulty is in supporting the compatibility lists. The compatibility lists for drives, and the compatibility lists for printers can get very extensive. Business-wise it therefore makes more sense to force the consumer to pay for extra unit to cover the costs. I design both types of servers, and in our initial proposals we always list the combined features, but the end customers always ask us to dedocument one or the other. So, ultimately it is a business reason, not a technical reason.

    2. Re:OK, a serious question by Penguin+Programmer · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Tell me why we don't see cheap network appliances at Walmart and Bestbuy that accept USB drives and printers all in one convenient box.

      I see the "cheap" drive sharing boxes and the "cheap" printer sharing boxes but, given how easy it is to set up SAMBA on a VERY low end device, why don't we see any that do both?


      Because if they put them in one box, you'd only have to buy one box. And then you'd only have to upgrade one box in a few years. The way it works right now, they can sell you two boxen (and if you're an average consumer, you'll be more than happy to buy two boxen) and then in a few years when the latest and greatest printer connector/wireless protocol/ethernet standard/etc hits, they can sell you two new boxen to work with your new network/printer/computer/etc.

      Before asking such questions as "why don't they put both things in one box," keep in mind that the entire computer industry is a huge scam and that most consumers are so stupid about computers that they don't even care.
    3. Re:OK, a serious question by Jim+Buzbee · · Score: 3, Informative

      Plenty of places do sell them. I don't know about Wallmart, but they are available. See:
      This one for an example. I should know, I've written reviews for a dozen or so of these things...

    4. Re:OK, a serious question by b0bby · · Score: 1

      And while we're wishing, why hasn't anyone made a little hylafax box? I would think that a little fax server that emails you a pdf would be a great device, and if you incorporated a print server you could have it print the faxes as well. Yet no one seems to have such a beast.

    5. Re:OK, a serious question by barry99705 · · Score: 1

      Uhh, my local walmart has the linksys nslu2.

    6. Re:OK, a serious question by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Tell me why we don't see cheap network appliances at Walmart and Bestbuy that accept USB drives and printers all in one convenient box.

      It's probably firstly because Unix printing support is still a HUGE fucking pain in the ass, and secondly because the average consumer has no need whatsoever for something like that.

      See, most people only have one PC in their house. If they have more than one, they can handle having them both on if they are even using filesharing.

      The printing thing would be a gigantic boondoggle. AFAIK the only company's all-in-one devices you can fully use on Linux are the HP ones, and those are what most of the people I know seem to be using. Of course, since 99% of home printers aren't PCL or Postscript, you need to use some funky-ass filter to even generate output they can handle. Having figured that out, you still have to align the printer so that your output is where you expect it to be.

      Anyway you can go into circuit shitty or home despot and buy devices like what you describe. People who need something like that know where to go to find it. People whose first inclination is to go to walmart for computing accessories wouldn't know what to do with it.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:OK, a serious question by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Because for less than the cost of a second phone line, you can go to somewhere like AirComUSA and get a virtual fax service that won't break, won't get misconfigured, and will be more reliable.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    8. Re:OK, a serious question by MightyYar · · Score: 2, Interesting
      "And while I'm on the subject, why don't we see cheap server appliances for other services? Is it lack of market demand that keeps me from being about the buy a low power, cheap apache server in a box the size of a cable modem? Same for proftpd and squirrelmail/postfix/mailman? Seriously, I know the market is limited, but it's hardly non-existent! Especially if they made it easy to set up and use, then ANYONE could be an end point. That is the real promise fo the Internet to me."

      I don't think that there is a market for the types of devices you are listing. Who would use the apache box? Bloggers? People sharing family photos? There are already better solutions for these people in the form of myspace, blogger, flickr, etc. People more technically savvy than these folks can set up one of the more general-use network appliances out there. A pre-configured, out of the box ftp server is even more niche, and I don't even want to try to find a non-tech-whiz that even has an interest in running a mail server in these days of free gig accounts at Google and among the mountains of spam.

      Frankly the only reason I think that network hard drives are so popular is that people are terrified of cracking open their PCs to install a hard drive, and they don't really understand the difference between the various external types. Slightly more savvy users get sold on the ability to share music between multiple computers, or backing up from multiple computers to one drive without swapping wires, and all that jazz.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    9. Re:OK, a serious question by Technician · · Score: 1

      It's probably firstly because Unix printing support is still a HUGE fucking pain in the ass, and secondly because the average consumer has no need whatsoever for something like that.

      Who cares. Most of the Linux appliances don't care. The printer driver is installed on the Windows clients and the Linux box (NAS/Printserver) simply spools the data. The NAS doesn't need print drivers. It has no print jobs to create.

      I have Linksys, Hawking printservers and a Simple Tech NAS which supports USB printing. They don't use printdrivers. They only emulate a new hardware port to the Windows machines.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    10. Re:OK, a serious question by Technician · · Score: 2, Informative

      Frankly the only reason I think that network hard drives are so popular is that people are terrified of cracking open their PCs to install a hard drive, and they don't really understand the difference between the various external types.

      You missed that one. I have a foster home. I load the MP3's, drivers, and photos on a NAS instead of on some local drive. I also put the My Documents on the NAS. The shares are password protected and I can use any machine handy to access it. Sometimes I use a laptop. Sometimes I use a desktop with a CD burner for a change of tunes for the car. All the special drivers for the various machines are on the NAS. It helps in a rebuild as I don't have to find all the driver disks for everything. Sometimes I'm out in the garage and want some tunes other than what the local DJ wants to dribble all over. A laptop with wireless brings the tunes out. A NAS makes a lot of sence if you are not a bachlor with a single PC. It is a whole lot cheaper than buying a bunch of 160 Gig drives for all the PC's. I can keep the machines running on the 15-60 Gig drives they already have.

      My NAS draws 15 watts and the hard drive powers down after 20 minutes of inactivity. It has no fan. Why would I want to leave a PC on 24X7 to share a few files. The NAS is also encrypted. If it is stolen, the removal of power unmounts the encrypted partition. It can only be remounted by providing the encryption key through a password protected web interface. It is much safer than data on a local drive. The NAS box is blocked from the WEB by my NAT router. It can't be directly attacked from the WEB. An attacker would have to compromise one of the other machines first. It adds a layer of security to the data.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    11. Re:OK, a serious question by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1
      Frankly the only reason I think that network hard drives are so popular is that people are terrified of cracking open their PCs to install a hard drive

      Another hard drive wouldn't fit inside my PC, since it is a laptop. I have some external FireWire 800 disks, but I have to be physically close to them to use them. The ability to add some extra long-term storage that I can access over 802.11g would be very attractive to me, as long as it ran silent while not in active use.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    12. Re:OK, a serious question by MightyYar · · Score: 1
      I was not being clear :) I am sure that on Slashdot, lots of good cases can be made for network drives... My point was that they wouldn't be so popular if the manufacturer were only relying on us (the more-or-less tech savvy) to buy them. You are WAY more advanced than the average Best Buy shopper - most people don't know where the "My Documents" folder actually is in the file system, let alone how to move it or password protect anything.

      Hell, how many people do you think even know that 15 watts is thrifty? If there were two of these things that were sitting next to each other on the shelf and one proudly proclaimed "New, Higher 25-Watt!" on the package, the average shopper would buy the higher-wattage one, thinking that it was better somehow - the same way they sell these vacuum cleaners by how much current they draw!

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    13. Re:OK, a serious question by MightyYar · · Score: 1
      No question, your example would be a terrific use for one of these devices. Though I have to warn you that it is a S-L-O-W solution if you are looking for regular backups or ghosting.

      I meant to point out my belief that something as obviously useful (to us geeks) as a network hard drive has only been made successful in the marketplace because it is useful to the consumer even when not used in the intended way - or at least not to it's full potential. I probably should not have brought network drives up at all, since they really have no impact on my core argument - which was that there probably isn't a market for the types of devices listed at the top of the thread.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  17. Not necessarily.... by PainBreak · · Score: 4, Informative

    I can't comment on FreeNAS, because I have never used it, but Quantum Snap NAS devices (which were later rebranded as Dell PowerVault NAS devices) handle decent loads (100+ users at a time), and utilize a proprietary *nix OS with 32MB onboard ram and a MASSIVE Pentium 233 MMX. It's also doing software RAID. I'd say "Any Old Box" is probably a good fit.

    1. Re:Not necessarily.... by Jim_Maryland · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure that Dell still builds the PowerVaults with a proprietary *nix OS or software RAID. The Dell PowerVault 755N systems we used had MS Windows 2000 Advanced Server installed with the Microsoft Services For UNIX (SFU). Looking at the Dell site now under "Storage PowerVault NAS Server", they look to have moved to PowerEdge 8301 featuring Windows Storage Server 2003 R2 and I don't see any mention of MS SFU. If I recall though, Microsoft was offering this for free but it looks like Dell isn't supporting NAS for multiple protocols anymore.

      The problem I see with the FreeNAS offering is that it is software based RAID. I've seen too many instances where the entire RAID was lost due to software failure.

  18. Arrrg! Samba is not acceptable for macs! by SuperBanana · · Score: 5, Informative
    The software, which is based on FreeBSD, Samba, and PHP, includes an operating system that supports various software RAID models and a Web user interface. The server supports access from Windows machines, Apple Macs

    Look. Just because MacOS X supports SMB, does not mean that SMB is an acceptable solution for file-serving to MacOS X clients.

    • SMB is absolutely glacial at file metadata/folder retrieval compared to Appleshare. Do the following test: back up a large volume via SMB using Retrospect or a similar tool on the Mac. Then repeat using Appleshare. Using SMB, the file/folder scan will progressively slow down and take hours to finish.
    • SMB does not support the character set or file-name lengths Macs REQUIRE. Yes, I said, REQUIRE. You'll discover this when you go to make an emergency backup of a mac to a SMB share and get errors about filenames that are too long, or have characters that aren't valid. A lot of applications contain files in their internal structure that violate SMB naming restrictions.
    • When Samba runs across a file that it can't display the name for...IT IGNORES IT!
    • Samba requires a lot of tweaking to get it to perform decently, and despite the usual recommended config changes, I've never been able to get Samba to perform as well as a "stock" Appleshare client.

    Netatalk has some of its own crankyness (and if you run Debian/Ubuntu, you need to rebuild the debian package with SSL support or passwords are transmitted in the clear, thanks to the OpenSSL/GNU idiocy), but it doesn't have nearly the basic functionality problems Samba does for Macs.

    Sidenote: looks like they "borrowed" the complete user interface from m0n0wall...and it looks like they MIGHT use netatalk...googling turned up some hints that netatalk might be built-in.

  19. One Difference: WebDAV Support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OpenFiler has it, FreeNAS doesn't. I'd been watching FreeNAS hoping they might add WebDAV, which I would like to be the only protocol I use. It's probably not quite there yet, but I at least want it available as my first choice, with the others as options just in case in the meantime. Guess I need to give OpenFiler a look now that I know about it.

  20. Re:Neat but.. by Daniel_Staal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It could just as easily be said that you could do that with a bare computer and an assembler. Sure you could, but do you want to? Starting with a basic Linux/BSD distro is easier. This is easier yet.

    This is just a specifically-configured FreeBSD-based distrobution. It makes one moderately complicated setup easy enough for a causal computer dabbler. (Not quite a novice, but not an expert either.) It's useful if it can do a good job, because it makes it easier for people to set this up, with less time, effort, and knowledge on their part.

    Which means they can focus their time, effort, and knowledge on something else.

    --
    'Sensible' is a curse word.
  21. Or the much better NASLite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Naslite is way better. No problems with kick butt performance. Even a noob with no *nix experience can set it. If you need storage, then naslite is the way to go.

    1. Re:Or the much better NASLite by lostatredrock · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unless you ever want to use more than 4 drives in which case naslite can't help you at all. I have used NasLite OpenFiler, FreeNAS, as well as a full blown Fedora install at various times for file sharing. For me in the end FreeNAS was the way too go. NasLite was nice, but I had more than 4 drives I wanted to put in so thaty one was a no go as it does not support PCI controller cards. OpenFiler was designed to be a much more robust and wide ranging installation than what I needed. It is based on a full distro and it shows in the number of features, but also in the complexity. The real killing point for me there was the lack of any built in usser support. Any authentication had to go through an authentication server, since it was a full distro I could have set this up on the same box...but I am running this on an internal network and security was not a big thing. FreeNAS on the other hand gave me everything I needed: suport for as many drives as I wanted, basic authentication, and a web interface that does literaly anything I want it to. Since install it has been up without incident with the exception of power outages (UPS a friend of mine got me at discount should help with this) and upgrades.

    2. Re:Or the much better NASLite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      version 2 of NASLite is going to support more than 4 drives, SATA,SCSI,FW,USB, hardware raid etc. I think it's gonna be released any day now.

  22. Hardware for 8-10 drives? by freelunch · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I always thought the OS and software were the easy part. What do folks like for hardware platforms? I don't care about 2 or 4 drive solutions - those are trivial. I'm talking 8-10 drives in the 320-500 gb range. Most turn-key solutions are Far too expensive when compared to the 'build a box' DIY alternative.

    I've been building linux boxes for this and have used Antec cases in the past with 120mm fans. Proper drive cooling and monitoring are very important. Anything beyond 5 or 6 drives means using the 5 1/4 drive bays and that gets old fast.

    What controllers? Cheap SATA controllers are a must. I couldn't care less about the $200-$400 controllers. Some controllers don't do dma correctly when you have more than one in a machine. I have played with the Syba SD-SATA-4p under Linux and it works okay (though it does not work with one amd64 machine that has a Promise ATA controller).. Price is right at about $15-$25 for four ports ($4-8/port!). I haven't tried two or more in the same machine. There does not seem to be any SMART support in the current linux driver.

    10 320 gb drives = $1150 = 36 cents/GB.
    $500 machine + $1150 = 51.5 cents/GB.

    1. Re:Hardware for 8-10 drives? by tweek · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My setup is as follows:

      Dual-P3 1Ghz
      1GB of RAM
      4x250GB SATA - Linux Software RAID5 - New array
      2x160 SATA - Linux Software RAID1 - Old Array

      The neat part is the external SATA. I planned this for about a year and waited till all the parts came to the right price point:

      The 4-250GB drives are in one of these:
      http://www.cooldrives.com/icqudrmusaen.html

      Connected to my 4-port SATA adapter using one of these:

      http://www.cooldrives.com/seatamcasaii1.html
      and one of these
      http://www.cooldrives.com/sata-multilane-pci-adapt er-bracket.html

      The raid card is a cheap rocketraid 1640. I'm not a fan of the halfass raid that is thrown on the low-end SATA cards but I needed the ports.

      My next step is to add another configuration similar to this one in the same server.

      --
      "Fighting the underpants gnomes since 1998!" "Bruce Schneier knows the state of schroedinger's cat"
    2. Re:Hardware for 8-10 drives? by Fweeky · · Score: 1
      "There does not seem to be any SMART support in the current linux driver."

      From the changelog for Smartmontools 5.36:
      [BA] Updated docs and error message to reflect Linux libata
            support for smartmontools starting with the 2.6.15 kernel
            series. Also init script support for the 'tinysofa' release.
    3. Re:Hardware for 8-10 drives? by rainer_d · · Score: 1

      Easy:
      Areca RAID6 controllers.
      Or the latest 3Ware SX series.
      But I'd choose Areca today. RAID6 is a huge improvement over RAID5 - in everyday use and even more so when you're actually running with a degraded drive or rebuilding it online.
      The 12-port PCIe version is just 799$.

      --
      Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
    4. Re:Hardware for 8-10 drives? by WuphonsReach · · Score: 1

      For Linux... Software RAID. Use any controller that you want, you can even mix/match them to fill available slots. No worries about drivers, compatibility, or having to buy (3) RAID controllers to protect against failure. (One for a hot-spare, the 2nd in an off-site location... both on the off-chance that you can't buy an exact replacement three years from now when the RAID controller dies.)

      My current "monster" box is an (8) drive Antec p160 running Gentoo (AMD64, 4GB RAM, 2 300GB RAID1 arrays, 1 200GB JBOD scratch drive, 1 600GB RAID5 array). Four drives below and 4 drives above (taking up 3 5.25" bays using this 4:3 bay cooler). Or I could've ditched the optical drive and used a pair of 3:2 bay coolers to pack (6) drives into the 5.25" bay area. I run PostgreSQL, Apache, SubVersion, rsync backups, Samba, DNS and DHCP services on this box. The RAID5 array is basically a big backup drive for my network (and yes I wish it was larger).

      My next home server will probably be based on the Antec p180b case, which I can cram 10 or 12 drives into. Based on the schematics, airflow looks better then the old p160 case. I may even upgrade the existing p160 server to a p180b case.

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
    5. Re:Hardware for 8-10 drives? by drsmithy · · Score: 1
      I always thought the OS and software were the easy part. What do folks like for hardware platforms? I don't care about 2 or 4 drive solutions - those are trivial. I'm talking 8-10 drives in the 320-500 gb range. Most turn-key solutions are Far too expensive when compared to the 'build a box' DIY alternative.

      Personally I would argue that the hardware/OS support and ongoing maintenance hassles of DIY more than cover the additional cost of off-the-shelf hardware like Promise's vTrak chassis, but that's coming from a business-production-environment perspective. I can certainly see why use for home would consider $$$ saved up front far more important than ongoing "user time costs".

      The biggest performance-related problem in building your own SAN/NAS is that most - if not all - consumer level motherboards have pitiful amounts of I/O bandwidth. Usually just a single ~130M/s PCI bus, which even a small four-disk array is more than capable of flooding. New machines have more I/O bandwith in the form of PCIe, but it's usually tied up amongst too few slots and PCIe disk controllers are still usually uncommon, expensive and poorly supported in terms of drivers.

      I would suggest chasing up some old Xeon server motherboards (single or dual CPU) with multiple PCI-X slots and buses, then some four or eight slot SATA controllers. Ideally, you want SATA controllers that are either 66Mhz PCI (most Promise cards support this) or PCI-X (most 8-port and larger controllers support this). I suggest Xeon boards because very few P3 or Athlon "server" boards even have PCI-X and most that do only have one or two 64/66Mhz buses, shared among multiple slots. They also tend to be relatively expensive. "High end" (for their day) [dual] Xeon boards often have 4 - 5 PCI-X slots, often shared between two or three 64 bit, 133Mhz PCI-X buses.

      The other big problems you will find are cooling and power.

      * Cooling, because drives - particularly close packed - generate a lot of heat and overheated hard disks die very quickly. Ideally you want to keep your drives down around the 30 - 35 degrees C mark. I use 4-in-3 Coolermaster drive cages with integrated 12cm fans a a cheap solution, but there are also numerous 4-in3 and even 5-in-3 "hotswap" cages that are more expensive. Ignore people who tell you they are only for "CM Stacker" cases, they fit fine into any set of three 5.25" drive bays.

      * Power, because while a dozen hard disks idling (or even in heavy use) don't use a lot of power, when they all spin up at once they do draw a lot of current - and most SATA drive/controller combos aren't capable of staggering drive spinups. New PSUs these days have ridiculously high capabilities, however, these days, so it's becoming much less of a problem.

      CPU grunt is basically irrelevant. Even a few hundred Mhz worth of P2 is capable of doing RAID5 checksumming faster than any array you're likely to assemble with consumer-level parts and by the time you get a semi-decent motherboard, the slowest/cheapest CPU you can put into it is already ~10x faster than it needs to be.

      Note that most cheap SATA controllers are cheap for a reason - they suck. Either their performance is atrocious, they don't play play well with multiple controllers in the same box, or they throw mysterious errors when used in software RAID arrays (ie: with all ports busy simultaneously). Somewhat ironically, however, many hardware RAID controllers (real hardware RAID controllers) give better performance overall when used as a dumb controller and Linux software RAID, than when configured to use hardware RAID.

    6. Re:Hardware for 8-10 drives? by Big_Breaker · · Score: 1

      I spent a lot of time getting a FreeNAS setup going. The ultimate "nail in the coffin" was that FreeBSD just never could play nice with my drives and controllers. I received DMA read and write error messages all the time. These would bring the RAID down in short order as two dropped out. That's really not what you want in a NAS.... And FreeNAS has some quirks to software RAID that scare me a little.

      I searched all over the internet for a drive fix but it seemed like the devs blame weak IDE controllers (SATA and PATA) for all these problems. Basically you are SOL on these errors. Somehow I never have these problems with Windows or Linux. It seems like such a core function of an OS to handle disk IO well and FreeBSD isn't getting it done.

      Anyway I was using an ASUS A7n8x deluxe flashed to latest BIOS. Onboard PATA and SATA was flaky. I bought a new SI3114 4 port SATA controller (on board 3112 was supposedly trash). That didn't work either.

      I have since switched to Openfiler which is based on CentOS. I can't get public shares to work because it wants directory service and per user permissioning. I need a stable, but unsecured box to serve up a software RAID. Perhaps if I wasn't a Linux noob I'd know how to fix that. I'm thinking about just manually editing the samba .conf since the GUI doesn't seem to offer public shares.

      ClarkConnect is starting to look good too. It takes a lot of time to test these packages out and so far it has all been a waste.

    7. Re:Hardware for 8-10 drives? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for the links, that's pretty slick.

      I considered an external solution like this, but decided to get an extra Antec case, filled it with SATA disks, and ran long cables back to the controller in my real computer. This was cheap, simple and offered plenty of bays for expansion. It also looks nice because it's just two identical PCs sitting side-by-side. Although this required running one cable per drive, it's not like these are visible or a big deal. I paid less than 1/3rd of the price quoted on those web pages, and I still have room for more drives.

  23. walmart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
    Tell me why we don't see cheap network appliances at Walmart
    Because that's just what the meth addict with mismatched shoes and $50 worth of pork rinds in his cart is really looking for at 3am.
  24. naslite by coconutstudio · · Score: 2, Informative

    Naslite (free version) worked great on my salvaged P-100 32MB system running quiety and headless with nothing but a floppy drive and a 300GB HD. Luckily, it recognized the large HD (since Linux/etc bypasses bios) and I didn't need an IDE card. Performance was acceptable (good but not great) for small base of users but I wouldn't want to stick a RAID in it or have more than 5 nodes. The total system consumed total of 25-30watts (a little high compared to NSLU). Freenas looked good except for higher amount of ram(96m which I didn't have.

  25. Re:Arrrg! Samba is not acceptable for macs! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OS X can't do NFS?!

  26. Re:Arrrg! Samba is not acceptable for macs! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    SMB, although not the best method of sharing files in a heterogenoius network, is pretty much the standard in those envoronments. It is not the fault of SMB that Apple had features it does not support.

  27. Okay, I believe you. Which begs the question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dumb n00b question: what ARE the acceptable linux solutions for file-sharing to OS X clients?

  28. Use a spareimage by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you need to do this, setup a sparse disk image on the SMB share and mount it. Copy files to the disk image. Slow but flawless.

    I'm also working on some docs on how to do this with rsync, which actually works much faster if you don't need to use it interactively (big if).

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  29. Yes, but can you? by Russ+Nelson · · Score: 1

    Yes, but can you make a Beowulf cluster using it? That's the essential question that no one has yet asked.

    Um, in THIS story. Nobody has asked it in THIS story yet.

    --
    Don't piss off The Angry Economist
  30. Re:Arrrg! Samba is not acceptable for macs! by HogGeek · · Score: 1
    from the home page of the website (lower left):

    "The minimal FreeBSD distribution, Web interface, PHP scripts and documentation are based on M0n0wall."

    It's not like they don't give credit...

  31. AFP & HFS+ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I love the idea of the FreeNAS. I really need something like this to backup my home network. However, I am a Mac OS X user and the problem with solutions like FreeNAS is that they usually require Mac users to communicate with them via samba rather than Mac-native AFP, AND they don't support HFS+ file system, which is native to OS X. Without native networking protocol and native filesystem the files copied seem to put lots of "." files on the target disk, and file metadata is stripped off. At least from my experience that's what I've seen. I'm very interested to read any comments anyone might have on this.

  32. Re:Neat but.. by OmegaBlac · · Score: 1
    IOW, this is a good time for Linux to create small appliances like this targeting a xen base.
    For Linux to do what? When did Linux become a company that ever manufactured appliances? *Sigh* Some of you still do not understand what Linux is...
  33. SMB,NFS,AFP-Mmmmm by theolein · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have setup a Linux server to server to both Mac and PC clients on the same volumes/shares using AFP with the Netatalk package, and SMB with Samba. Netatalk, in its new incarnations is by far the best non-apple AFP server available. It works seamlessly with modern OSX clients (10.3 and 10.4), supporting precomposed UTF-8 charactersets, long file names (most commercial NAS devices still only support the ancient appletalk implementation with 32 MacRoman charactersets and glacial unreliable performance) and even Bonjour/Zeroconf support.

    Netatalk works surprisingly well with modern Samba versions (post 3.0) that support UTF-8 (and now even includes a netatalk module to ease compatibility), and both samba and netatalk hide one another's specific data from the other so that resource forks are kept and if the mswindows option is enabled in netatalk, the worst character problems (?\ etc in filenames) are safe.

    What I would really love to see is a system that reliably combines these, PLUS NFS for Linux shares. The FreeNAS looks good, but seesm to be a bit on the young side without decent Mac support, and god knows there are enough Mac using companies that don't want to have to fork over money for XServes.

    1. Re:SMB,NFS,AFP-Mmmmm by mrchaotica · · Score: 1
      What I would really love to see is a system that reliably combines these, PLUS NFS for Linux shares.
      If Linux can support a Netatalk server, surely it can use a Netatalk client as well?
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  34. samba doesn't do +2GB by SuperBanana · · Score: 1, Informative
    If you need to do this, setup a sparse disk image on the SMB share and mount it. Copy files to the disk image. Slow but flawless.

    ...and useless because Samba has a maximum filesize of just 2GB, whereas Appleshare 3.1 supports a maximum [volume and file] size of 8 TB.

    1. Re:samba doesn't do +2GB by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      ...and useless because Samba has a maximum filesize of just 2GB, whereas Appleshare 3.1 supports a maximum [volume and file] size of 8 TB.

      Baloney - I back up to an 80GB sparseimage on a samba share every night. You may be thinking of FAT16.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    2. Re:samba doesn't do +2GB by pehowell · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's actually the Samba client that limits you to 2GB or less. Use CIFS to mount the Samba volume, if you have files over 2GB in size.

    3. Re:samba doesn't do +2GB by Breakfast+Pants · · Score: 1

      Hilarious. Now I know how big of a grain of salt to take your other post with.

      --

      --

      WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
    4. Re:samba doesn't do +2GB by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Moderated at informative? How about -1 wrong.

  35. Recovery by babanada · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I threw a FreeNAS server up on my home network one day. The next day I decided to back up an XP box that had never been backed up before using the included backup program over the net. The following week I mistakenly deleted files in cygwin (watch out for the /cygdrive/driveletter, it is hidden from / and doesn't follow normal rules... that's my story anyway) and had to restore the XP box. I was able to restore the system over the network from the FreeNAS box. It was a *very* quick restore. Anyway, I like FreeNAS as a quick and easy way to do network backups/restores. The install is very quick and painless, and the BSD it runs on is stable and fast. Agreed about the security issues for corporate use, unless it is just a cheap way to make a drive and an old box into a complete recovery device... just turn it off when you aren't recovering.

    --
    I never clip my fingernails for fear of dangling symbolic links.
  36. Re:Neat but.. by Illbay · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I'm likely in the minority on a site where "nerd is king," but I *REALLY* like this trend toward making the difficult simpler for us casual administrators.

    Several years ago I tried to set up my Linux box as an internet router/gateway, using IPTABLES and what-not. I failed just through sheer lack of time to commit to learning all the stuff I'd need to know to do it properly. About that time, the first "Cable/DSL routers" came on the market, and made moot my need.

    Now, however, it is very easy to configure the various widgets that you'd need for this task because tools exist on (e.g.) Fedora to make it so.

    For myself, I'm glad I can put the effort into learning more in-depth some of the things I can do with Linux, and yet those things I find tedious, or don't have the time to do, have "easy-to-use" tools handy.

    --
    Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
  37. Re:Arrrg! Samba is not acceptable for macs! by ottffssent · · Score: 1

    Ok, calm down.

    SMB has issues. You're right about that. Netatalk has issues. Whether netatalk is a step above SMB is probably a matter of taste. I've used netatalk with about 100 macs for 7 years or so, and it worked just well enough to convince me not to buy an xserve until this past year. Much better, though netatalk was a huge step above the Apple not-even-remotely-servers you could buy when I started.

    That said, the naming issues that SMB exposes aren't really a problem if you're storing audio, video, or stills. Besides, there's always nfs if that's an appropriate fit with your architecture. And OSX can mount directories over FTP if you'd rather go that route.

    And if you absolutely MUST use SMB and MUST back up wacky OS files, use a disk image with a boring filename and store your mac files in that.

  38. Re:Neat but.. by wiml · · Score: 1

    Why on earth would run run it inside xen? Just run it as a plain old process. Sheesh. It's like we're regressing to the days of VM/{CMS,MVS,etc}.

  39. M0n0wall by zeth · · Score: 1

    The web-GUI looks exactly like the one in m0n0wall? Is this a conspiracy?

    1. Re:M0n0wall by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hey dumbass, if you would do a little research, the php scripts and all that are based on m0n0wall. RTFA before you make retarded comments and dup comments.

  40. Re:Neat but.. by kv9 · · Score: 1
    *Sigh* Some of you still do not understand what Linux is...

    yeah and you know whats even funnier (in a sad clown way)? that this FreeNAS thing is built around FreeBSD. now wheres my LART...

  41. Google is your friend by twitter · · Score: 3, Informative
    I can set up Samba, etc. on just about any box. What defies me is setting up OpenAFS.

    Knoppix and OpenAFS.

    Tell me how well it works.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  42. That's not the case at all. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Clearly you have never used a real NAS solution. Only somebody who hasn't used a dedicated device would make such an absurd statement.

    No, professional NAS devices are not simply repackaged x86-based computers. As stated before, only the most recent x86 processors even come close to offering a suitable level of power consumption. Even then, they're often vastly trumped by PowerPC, MIPS and ARM processors in terms of the power necessary per operation.

    The use of a proper NAS solution can save a company thousands of dollars per year. Maybe your friend Jim Bob does run a PC-based NAS device. Let me just tell you something: your friend and yourself do not know shit about the real world.

    Many large companies will have 1500+ of these devices. And that's per office building! These devices can save $10 a month, if not more, when used instead of an old PC. If you had any management duties, which clearly you do not, you'd realize the benefit of saving $15000 per month is immense. And that's just money saved powering these devices, ignoring all the other benefits of using a professional piece of hardware.

    Please refrain from making such ignorant statements in the future, for your own sake. If you've never worked with these devices on a professional, as is the case, it's best if you say nothing at all.

    1. Re:That's not the case at all. by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1
      These devices can save $10 a month, if not more, when used instead of an old PC.

      Because nothing says Return On Investment like spending $1,000 over the cost of a standard PC for small-office file and print sharing in order to save $10 per month.

      Hope you plan on using the same storage appliance for 8 years; I personally don't have much use for the 18GB drives I had in 1998.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  43. Re:Neat but.. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    By saying Linux, I did not say Linux a company, but Linux a community. While that does include groups (such as debian), it also includes companies (such as novell and redhat, and the little distros such as DSL) and even small hackers(such as a starting Linus or Alan Cox).

    Just for the record, I have coded in the linux Kernel (side work and have submitted patches for Linux), I have done work on KDE and perl. Yet, I do not find it really all that necessary to be derogitory towards others that do not say things exactly the way that I want.

    It is your attitude that makes it hard for others to want to adopt it. My question to you, is why take the attitude that you have? I have been working with and on Linux since 1992. Somehow, I seriously doubt that you have that much time associated with OSS, let alone with just one piece of it.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  44. ::shakes head:: by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 1

    Software RAID is documented. If it fails, you can plug the drives into another system that understands the RAID format and get at the data. Hardware RAID is often propietary and all-or-nothing. You're not going to get much help on recovering your data from Promise or Adaptec when one of your cards go south. They'll say: "But didn't you keep recent backups???" (which is The Truth (tm) but still...)

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
    1. Re:::shakes head:: by Jim_Maryland · · Score: 1

      I've only dealt with NetApp and Dell PowerVault so I can't say what happens with Promise or Adaptec. I do have a HighPoint RAID controller on my home PC but it only supports mirroring and striping if I remember correctly. In the case of NetApp at least, I have dual controllers so if one fails, the other takes over. We do keep backups but not so much for hardware failure but human error (also have "snapshots" to assist with this too). My understanding though with NetApp is that you can plug the disk into another NetApp system and enough information exist on the disk to bring everything back online.

      Software RAID is documented. If it fails, you can plug the drives into another system that understands the RAID format and get at the data.
      I haven't dealt with software RAID enough to know how accurate that statement is. The two times we lost data in our lab were related 1) to failure of the system hosting the RAID (no big loss as it was a development system will duplicate data) and 2) a system that was being upgraded (MS 2000 to 2003) and the software RAID didn't recognize the drives when setup again on the new OS. I wasn't part of the 2nd scenario until after the system admin realized the device was software RAID and said he lost a large chunk of data (again, we had other sources to get the data so not a critical loss).

    2. Re:::shakes head:: by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 1

      NetApp is a different animal. They have some kind of uber-database FS so I would expect their disks to be self-identifying and pluggable... this concept extends to volumes and clusters in their high end equipment. I'm pretty confident the non-Windows based NAS products from Dell are just as hardy.
      But Promise, HighPoint, LSI, Adaptec, etc. and the others could care less. They'll setup something that works on your disks and store some configuration on the drives, and the rest in NVRAM, but good luck moving them to another machine (LSI is better at this than most).

      Windows is kinda picky about software RAID. It's not that it can't grok the volumes, it just doesn't want to bring up volumes that have unfamiliar UUIDs or system IDs. Which is kinda a shame but there are tools to get around this. I don't recommend it for unattended use (but for interactive use it's probably worth it).

      Linux, FreeBSD, and Solaris aren't so picky. They'll bring up a volume set if it looks like "it's all there". Which is the best. Because you can just unplug a bunch of drive sleds from one enclosure and shove them into another (without regarding order even) and be reasonably assured that your data will still be there.

      --
      THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
    3. Re:::shakes head:: by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Informative
      [Software RAID is documented. If it fails, you can plug the drives into another system that understands the RAID format and get at the data.]

      I haven't dealt with software RAID enough to know how accurate that statement is.

      Speaking as someone who has moved a single array between about 5 machines over its lifetime, including from kernel 2.4 machines to kernel 2.6 machines, I'd say that if you've got a Linux software RAID array, it'll probably work on any Linux machine you can find to plug it into (assuming that machine has appropriate drives for the disk controllers and RAID level).

  45. Cron jobs? by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 1

    Don't run cron jobs on NAS. Bad, bad!!!
    You don't need to run slocate on a system you never use for interactive processing. ;)
    Hell, don't run anything not directly related to moving data in and out of the system. Demand-based load is easy to model and there's less chance it'll fail unexpectedly (like when you're on vacation or something).

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
    1. Re:Cron jobs? by sholden · · Score: 1

      I don't run slocate. I run a cron job that sets the DNS entry for my ever changing DSL IP if it's different than last time (and the cable IP too - but it never changes anyway it would seem). It's the only machine in my apartment that is on 24x7 - in fact all the other machines are laptops and tend to turn themselves off overnight. If it fails when I'm on vacation why would I care? It would probably be off then anyway...

      I also run a nightly backup to remote machine, and backup from remote machine - but they hit the hard drives anyway.

      It also runs a ntp thingamee-jingamee don't know if that logs anything though.

      It's not a NAS for me, it happens to server files amongst other duties. It's primary roll is really providing a pointy-clicky interface to this thing: http://www.dacal.com.tw/dc300.htm (which exposes itself over USB as a mouse of all the bloody things they could have used).

  46. Re:Arrrg! Samba is not acceptable for macs! by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

    You seem to have an opinion on the subject, so I'll ask the same question others already have: what network filesystem would you recommend for sharing files from a FreeBSD (or possibly Linux) box to an OS X system? I'm currently using good ol' NFS to serve media files across a LAN. Is that a reasonable setup, or is there something you think should work better (faster, more compatibly)?

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  47. Netatalk Decrankification by frogstar_robot · · Score: 1

    The following practices will remove many of the irritations of using Netatalk.

    Use jfs formatted with the case-preserving option so that the resulting share will have the filename case-preserving behaivor that Macs expect. Samba imposes case-preserving semantics. Netatalk doesn't so you have to use the underlying filesystem to do it. I've found that JFS is the only viable way to do this in Linux. This is because JFS filesystems can be created and fscked entirely on Linux systems and also don't do hideous things to charsets and filenames. Keep in mind that you pretty much have to just use the share to service Mac clients; every once in a while you can really confuse Linux scripts that expect case-sensitive behaivor.

    No end of application flakiness disappears this way. Since Macs are case-preserving, software devs play fast in loose with the filenames they are passing around. If your application is using data from "Database.dbx" but writes updates to "database.dbx" then hilarity ensues. Using a case-preserving filesystem on the server prevents such nastiness. . Create your netatalk share filesystem thusly:

    mkfs.jfs -O /dev/whatever

    Put /dev/whatever into your fstab, mount, and modify Applevolumes.default accordingly.

    The -O is an uppercase letter O.

    Secondly, make sure you are running the cnid_metad daemon and use the dbd cnidscheme for your shares. That will keep your Mac OS aliases nice and happy.

  48. What's their incentive? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Especially if they made it easy to set up and use, then ANYONE could be an end point. That is the real promise fo the Internet to me.

    What makes you think they want you to do this?

    It's pretty obvious that the big companies like to stay big companies -- it gives them more monies -- and keep you small. Everything about today's system is "them=big producer, you=small consumer":

    - cable/DSL providers give you lots of downstream bandwidth, but much less upstream bandwidth (or charge a lot more for good upstream)
    - to offset this, they provide a small place to put a "personal webpage" (a few HTML files)
    - Microsoft sells Home, Professional, and Server versions of their OS; if you're a Home user, why would you want to run a web server? It's contrary to their whole business plan.
    - Most ISPs/IAPs don't let you resell access: you're an endpoint, a consumer, and you're not just buying access
    - Most ISPs block lots of ports for you, so you couldn't run a server even if you wanted to (well, you could run it on a funny port)
    - They keep selling things like NAT boxes/programs, that make it easier for lots of clients to connect to the internet, but not have the full functionality of a plain IP connection
    - They don't upgrade to IPv6, which would help move the balance from "we provide services for consumers" towards "a bunch of equal peers connected by IP"
    - and so on...

    I agree that this would unleash the real promise of the internet: everybody reads and writes, and is not simply a "consumer" of streams of data that big companies produce for you. I would love to see it happen. But how would the big companies of today increase their profit, exactly, by producing cheap server appliances for you? :-(

  49. Re:Arrrg! Samba is not acceptable for macs! by dodobh · · Score: 1

    It supports NFS. Why would you even care about Samba?

    --
    I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
  50. [OT] Re:How a real network file system? by Lord+of+Ironhand · · Score: 1
    Slightly OT, but this thread seemed like a good place...

    A question for anyone who feels that they have a decent idea of what's going on these days when it comes to network filesystems... what do you think is the best candidate for the network filesystem of the future, particularly from a UNIX point of view? NFSv4? Some AFS descendant? I watched Coda for a while during its active development but it seems to have grinded to a near-halt and has always seemed fragile.

  51. Is it safe? What can you do with it? by synthespian · · Score: 1

    I was looking at creating a server just for my electronic documents (which, due to professional reasons, are growing to a much to large ammount). But I don't have time nor skills nor wish to administer a full-blown professional server; I thought of creating a safe server on a BSD, in some off-the-beaten-track programming language (like Oz, or Erlang), or just use Common Lisp (Araneida web server). Put the thing in my home network for my use. Now I read about FreeNAS.

    If I understand this correctly, this would save me a lot of work (writing the little server software notwithstanding). Right?

    So, does this thing have a firewall? Is it safe?

    Can I install other softwares on it (suppose I want to write software for indexing my documents)? Can I install a FreeBSD port (like if I need a lisp port)?

    --
    Main difference between the BSD license and the GPL license: one is from California and the other is from Massachusetts
  52. CVS/Subversion? by zaft · · Score: 1

    This really appeals to me as being relatively easy to deal with, however, my current BSD server box is also a CVS and Subversion server. Can FreeNAS do that too, or is it outside the scope? If it's already running Apache it seems like Subversion wouldn't be too much of a stretch.

  53. Nice, but seems to be lacking an important feature by justasecond · · Score: 1

    I've been looking at FreeNAS, but have been reluctant to try it because it seems to lack support for expandable volumes (ala EVMS). So if you fill up your hard disk you can't just expand the storage onto a second disk; instead, you copy the first disk over to a second, bigger disk, put the second disk into service in place of the first disk, then throw the first disk out. Rinse, lather and repeat every time you fill up a disk.

    Am I missing something? If FreeNAS doesn't have this capability, are there any other dedicated NAS distributions that do include, e.g., EVMS?

  54. Free your mind... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... And your NAS will follow!

  55. Re:Arrrg! Samba is not acceptable for macs! by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    Use netatalk. Most people know of it (if they know of it at all) because it provides AppleTalk/DDP access, but it also does AppleTalk/IP.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  56. Re:Arrrg! Samba is not acceptable for macs! by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

    I can't find any specific comparison between it and NFS. What does it do better than NFS?

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  57. Slackware + Samba (with SWAT) is very easy by Derf_X · · Score: 1

    I recently setup a NAS at my father's house using Slackware on a Pentium 233 and if you know Linux, it is easy.

    1- Boot Slackware CD
    2- Create software RAID with raidtools (included on the boot CD)
    3- Install Slackware on RAID partitions
    4- Activate Samba and SWAT
    5- Add users and configure network shares
    6- Done!

  58. Network card troubles by daybot · · Score: 2, Funny
    One thing to watch while doing the initial configuration is that the FreeNAS server doesn't do any auto assignment of the network card. I assumed that since I only had one network card, it would automatically be assigned as the network card for the system. I was wrong. I only realised the problem after an hour of checking connections and cables. You must assign the network card as laid out in the "LAN interface and IP configuration" section of the user guide.

    heh, RTFM!

  59. Block level encryption? by RCSInfo · · Score: 1

    Does either FreeNAS or any of the alternatives discussed here offer HD encryption? Ideally where the key can be stored on a thumb drive that can be removed after boot?

    I have checked the site and couldn't find anything, but maybe someone has some experience integrating this in or knows of another project.

  60. Re:Neat but.. by Gorshkov · · Score: 1

    Since everybody here is a geek, nobody has a (non-inflatable) girlfriend.

    So ..... I'm guessing that there's no real need for ANYBODY to get into a "my dick is bigger than your dick" pissing match.

  61. Re:Neat but.. by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1
    I'm likely in the minority on a site where "nerd is king,"

    I doubt it - there are plenty of us who enjoy the "set and forget" aspect of Linux servers. I've been using SME (used to be E-Smith) server Contribs for the past five years.

    That's probably the only objection I'd have to FreeNAS - it doesn't do as many nice things as SME, which also sets up some fairly handy services like "iBays", which are web/intranet pages made simple. Worth looking at if you want more than just fileserving but still want to keep it simple.

    --
    "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
  62. More features, easier installation/configuration by nitnoy · · Score: 1

    Suriyan has an installation and configuration procedure that is extremely simple - the only question normally asked during install is which disk to use. The partitioning takes place behind the scenes, as does all of the rest of the configuration.

    There is a web-based UI that relies heavily on moin. There is support for establishing groups with mailing lists, their own wiki and samba share. Users can create user accounts, which gives them local mail addresses, their own wiki page, samba share, and webpage. File ownership and permissions were considered.

    Backing up the system and restoring from a backup are very easy to do. There is a web based updating system that utilizes apt. Postgres database is on board. Many other services (jabber, moodle, request-tracker) are being developed and implemented with similarly easy configurations. There is support for adding ISV applications in a very straightforward manner.

    Any thoughts? Feedback appreciated :)

  63. Another nice option by tm2b · · Score: 1

    Another one that I like is Infrant's ReadyNAS. There are several different forms factors - I've really liked the 4-SATA bay ReadyNAS NV, it's a solid piece of hardware (and runs their embedded version of Linux, has web-based configuration of everything including its Samba, servers as a printserver, supports external USB drives for backup, etc).

    They have a default hybrid RAID 5 option that automatically grows volumes incrementally until the disks are full - and in order to grow the volumes you just slide in another drive without any configuration (the first drive becomes parity, and then further ones expand the space).

    The only two gripes I have with the unit are related: they incorrectly portray SMB/CIFS as being the default network file system for MAC OS X (as opposed to AFP, which they say is only for Mac OS 9 and before), and they do not let you turn off SMB/CIFS.

    --
    "It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
  64. Humor? Re:Neat but.. by lpq · · Score: 1

    "...In the end, they will run on top of xen in their own environment and be easily upgradable."

    Ah...you're joking, right?

    Let's see...running "Xen" to virtulize a network and NAS server on my own machine to serve up extra disk space for my own machine. Is it me or would trying to run NAS servers virtualized on my own machine to provide extra disk space seem a bit unproductive?

    -l

  65. example of great oss by rapiddescent · · Score: 1

    I've been using FreeNAS for a while on an old laptop - I use this for simple home backup. The benefit of using an old laptop is that it is battery backed, low power & heat and has a small form factor. FreeNAS is great for rejuvenating laptops that have buggered screens. I've had a lot of experience installing enterprise NAS systems - including Microsoft's appalling 2003 storage edition. I bought about 6 of them for client (pre-installed on HP hardware) and found them to have very poor failover with clustering that really didn't work. These NAS's had HBA cards in them for SAN Access (HP EVA5000's) and basically the Windows could not cluster SAN connected disks. So, a copy of RHEL, Serviceguard and a fresh updated Samba and the exact same hardware performed as a properly clustered NAS and I also had a client whose eyes were opened to Linux. I found FreeNAS easy to configure and certainly headed in the right direction (when user rights are sorted out). It has a stronger feeling of solidity than Windows Storage edition - i.e. "It does what it says on the tin" functionality rather than a hacked down version of 2003 Server where you are never sure what you have got and what will install on it. e.g. Can Windows 2003 SE use veritas clustering? who knows? win 2003 server can.

  66. Perfect! by KlaymenDK · · Score: 1

    Gee thanks! This is just great; your way of using it is exactly identical to what I had in mind. Plug-in, auto-copy, manual check and delete. Incidentally, even your "useable by $wife" criterion is identical to mine. :)

    I have very poor bash-fu so I can't say if this will work for me, but thank you ever so much for providing the first "end-to-end" solution I have seen so far. BTW, my camera is a Canon Exilim, and I seem to remember gphoto having 'some form' of error accessing it. Nevertheless, I shall try this soon.

    Thanks!

  67. Re:Arrrg! Samba is not acceptable for macs! by swinte · · Score: 1

    I've found NFS works better than Netatalk for my 2 Mac home LAN. File transfer speed is considerably faster and I've had many fewer configuration/compatibility headaches. In the case of FreeNAS, I literally turned the box on, pointed my Macs to nfs://boxname and went on with my life.

  68. Re:Arrrg! Samba is not acceptable for macs! by swinte · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm using NFS on a couple of my Macs talking to FreeNAS without any issues. I switched to NFS after getting cranky at how slow Netatalk and Samba were for my daily backup operations.