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The Pornographers vs. The Pirates

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the there-are-worse-leads-to-follow dept.

conq writes "BusinessWeek has a piece on how pornography is again leading the way and showing Holywood how to fight back against piracy. From the article: 'Some producers of porn are starting to share revenues from online movies with the distributors of their DVDs, who might otherwise feel endangered by digital distribution online. Bolder yet, one large studio is allowing fans who buy movies online to burn them from their computers onto DVDs, with some protections included, of course.'"

55 of 275 comments (clear)

  1. So this is how it turns out by Svippy · · Score: 5, Funny

    And you thought it was just pirates vs. ninjas?

    --
    Clicked pie.
    1. Re:So this is how it turns out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Apartently, it's pirates vs. naked ninjas.

  2. The naked truth... by jkrise · · Score: 3, Insightful

    People who love porn would not mind DRM or any other restrictive technology - most porn lovers don't wish to have their names advertised, and a bit of money is not an issue.

    Not so with what the RIAA calls Pirates.

    --
    If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
    1. Re:The naked truth... by BrynM · · Score: 2, Insightful
      People who love porn would not mind DRM or any other restrictive technology

      I wouldn't go that far. Remember that there are quite a few porn sites that will happily embed a trojan (the malware not the condoms) into their website. The machines that I've cleaned for friends who like porn are some of the biggest messes I've seen. They all now know that if they want me to clean out their machine, I'll wipe the drives first thing unless they take precautions (anti-virus, firewall, rent their porn rather than download it).

      (oh, the inuendo for this article)
      --
      US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
    2. Re:The naked truth... by Trigun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've noticed that the more blatant you are about porn, the less likely you are to run into trouble. I know of one manager who loves porn, and is so blatant about it that he doesn't worry about going to the big names (playboy, penthouse, hustler, etc.). The other ones at that office are always so worried about it that they end up going to the out of the way corners of the Internet, and get infected.

    3. Re:The naked truth... by mindwhip · · Score: 2, Informative

      After all the internet is for porn....

      --
      [The Universe] has gone offline.
    4. Re:The naked truth... by Hillie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm sorry but I have to disagree, whether it be porn or anything else DRM leaves you feeling cheap and used.

      Now nevermind the thousands of inuendos and puns that statement may suggest. The fact is that no one wants to pay any amount of money per month on some site that lets you download content, if the content is going to stop working when you quit paying that site money.

      Whether that content is porn or music. There are millions of people who would pay a $3.95 trial to buy the ONE song they've been lookin for but unable to find elsewhere or that video they got spammed with that peaked their interest.

      With the DRM ripoff schemes of RIAA and some porn sites this is not possible. So let's say you were a member of any music/porn site that used DRM on their files. Restrictive DRM.. you paid a total of maybe $200 to them and you decide you don't want the service anymore, but you do like what you've gotten so far. You quit you're screwed.. so you're telling me I gotta keep paying to keep what I ALREADY PAID FOR?

      No thanks. *gives RIAA the finger*

      --
      - Alex
  3. Now there is a porn video I'd watch... by demongeek · · Score: 5, Funny

    The Pornographers versus The Pirates!

    Pirate: Arr! Bend over me matey while I prepare the long guns to pilage that booty!
    Porn Star: Oh! Don't pilage MY booty, at least not until my sorority girlfriends come over to help me repel borders! Oh!

  4. It isn't needed. by Lave · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I doubt there is anything with a higher pirated/legit ratio than porn.

    I know no-one who has bought porn - but everyone has watched it.

    Why hasn't porn gone bust like the movie and music industries say will happen to them?

    If a legitimate market can keep porn afloat an inherently embarrassing purchase - then everything else doesn't need to worry

    --
    http://skeptobot.blogspot.com/ - A site for the Renaissance man and woman
    1. Re:It isn't needed. by vinsanity1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > I know no-one who has bought porn yeah, but i know no-one who has masturbated. "there are those who do, and there's those who lie about it".

    2. Re:It isn't needed. by LoonyMike · · Score: 5, Insightful

      SPAM also has a low clicks/emails rate (I think), but the few clicks are enough to make it profitable.
      Low-budget porn movies might also need a relatively small number of sales to make money, even if they are massively pirated.

    3. Re:It isn't needed. by Jakob777 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I happen to run "Adult Book Stores" (porn shacks) and I have seen only a increase in sales due to the Internet, they bait them with a 10 second clip maybe the get a membership to the site then they are in my store buying up all of that actress that makes there mind go wild and POW I have cash in hand. The same works for the most part with me and my friends, we get the cams of new movies or the new album, and we are out buying it or sitting in a cola covered seat with that crying baby to go see the real thing.

      I think this will make all the profit margins for the adult industry go up, and the RIAA should look into not being such raging pricks but nice calm porn CEO's :)

      --
      if you are what you eat , then I could be you by tomorrow.
    4. Re:It isn't needed. by just_forget_it · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm surprised no one has brought this us even. The Porn industry is one of the richest in this country, and they are also the most heavily pirated. Kind of destroys the "Piracy hurts record sales" argument.

    5. Re:It isn't needed. by Eivind · · Score: 5, Insightful
      You mean you know noone who will admit to having bougth porn.... Not the same thing.

      Besides, porn movies are embarassingly low-budget. What counts as a "high budget" porn-movie doesn't even show up on the radar for budgeting normal movies. And some of the low-budget porn-movies have budgets down in the 4-digits range.

      You don't need to sell an awful lot to make a profit if your total budget is less than a years salary.

    6. Re:It isn't needed. by SlashDread · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Why hasn't porn gone bust"

      Because people who buy porn dont tell you. But the amount of money spend on online porn is huge. Its a matter of ease of use, and the instant "gratification" (scuse the pun), and online downloads/streams WILL sell.
      Regular content industrie is just, uhm, backwards really.

    7. Re:It isn't needed. by oliverthered · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'll quite happly wath the low budget films from the 70s so why are modern movie budgets so high? Maybe the movie industry should sort out their cost problems first if the're having problems making a profit.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    8. Re:It isn't needed. by pedalman · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Why hasn't porn gone bust like the movie and music industries say will happen to them?
      Because porn; like booze, is one of those recession-proof products that never seems to lose demand. It doesn't matter what the economy is doing. It will always thrive.
      --
      Friends don't let friends line-dance.
    9. Re:It isn't needed. by Dread_ed · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Why hasn't porn gone bust like the movie and music industries say will happen to them? "

      The main difference I see is that porn is an addictive substance. Don't you remember the playground pushers motto, "The first one is always free"?

      Many people would not buy porn their first time out. They have to "acquire the taste" first before they will go and spend cash on it. What better way to expose people to it than to make it free and obscenely easy to access?

      Most consumers of porn are feshitists of some kind. They enjoy seeing activity "x" over seeing position "y", etc. This selectivity leads to the consumer model of porn. Cater to the individual tastes. Then, if you make it they will come. Sometimes on your face. But invariably they will come and buy it. Not all of them, but enough of them to pay the bills and make it worthwhile.

      Even those who never pay for pornographic material help the ponographers consumer model by showing it to others. It spreads through people in an almost a viral way: some are immune, some have it but it is dormant, some are carriers, and some are just plain sick.

      So to put it in analogy format: free pirated porn on the internet is to porn sales as FM radio is to album sales. The mechanisms of interest and addiction are different, but the result is similar. Show people something that they want and some of them will spend cash on it.

      However, the price of "buying" a new customer for porn is a bit higher than music because the pornograpther is fighting religious conditioning, social stigma, even secular morality in an attempt to gain a new customer. This dosen't even consider the fact of restricted access and delivery methods. Fortunately for those pandering porn they have the biology of the body on their side. From endorphins and adrenaline to sensory neurons and autonomic responses we are hard-wired into sexual desire. All they have to do is pit the body against the inhibitions enough times through repeated exposure and they have a new client, probably for life.

      Repeated exposure...Hmmm. Remind you of anything? How about how radio stations play the same song over and over.

      Coincidence?

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    10. Re:It isn't needed. by rtechie · · Score: 4, Informative

      The main difference I see is that porn is an addictive substance. Don't you remember the playground pushers motto, "The first one is always free"?

      You have a pretty strange definition of "addictive". I'd call it "flamebait".

      Most consumers of porn are feshitists of some kind. They enjoy seeing activity "x" over seeing position "y", etc. This selectivity leads to the consumer model of porn. Cater to the individual tastes. Then, if you make it they will come. Sometimes on your face.

      A fetishist can't achieve orgasm without their particular fetish, a porn fetishist could ONLY climax when watching porn. What you're referring to is called "asthetics". Different people have different tastes in food, clothing, entertainment, and yes, in sex. Since "pornography", despite all the bullshit out there, is simply visual depictions of sexual activity, it shouldn't be suprising that it reflects a broad range of sexual interests. If you do a little research you'll find this has been the case since the beginning. The oldest artistic/religious artifacts discovered, over 100,000 years old, are sexual in nature.

      If you hate sex so much go join a monastary, start prostrating yourself, and leave the rest of us alone.

  5. Delivery by download not new by dk-software-engineer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Downloading a paid product is not a new thing. It has worked for software in years. I don't see why it shouldn't work for other kinds of data like movieclips and images.

    Of course it's easier to share it with a few thousand closest friends on Internet when you don't have to rip it first. But is it really the ripping part that is hard? Isn't that the easiest part? Why is that so bold, as the summary says?

    1. Re:Delivery by download not new by Fozzyuw · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Of course paid downloading isn't new and I wouldn't exactly say porn is leading the way (though I would agree porn had done a lot for the internet as well as VHS). I've been using iTunes for some time now, and I've never owned an iPod. It's such a convienance, with one gripe, only 30 secs of a song can be previewed. Anyways, I just spent $5 on iTunes a weekago. I had 5 singles I enjoyed listening too and I downloaded them, burned them to a CD, ripped them back into MP3, put them on my PSP to work out with (yeah, I use it more of a MP3 player than a video or game player. Saddly, that beautiful screen isn't used much, much to my dismay.)

      That same purchase would have costed me between $60-$100 to buy the 5 CD's that each had one of those songs on them. Of course, I would have gotten much more music, but it wasn't the music I was willing to buy. It would be like going to a fast-food restaurant and being forced to only get the combo meal when all you wanted was a small fry.

      I use to work at Wal-Mart and that is when I realized that I no longer wanted to buy CD's. Wal-Mart, the self proclaimed "low price leader", bought their CD's for like $3 and turned around and sold them for $15-20. I wasn't about to participate in that kind of money hording. I'll just keep listening to the radio and downloading the song I want.

      --
      "The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became truth." ~1984 George Orwell
  6. Protections? by shellbeach · · Score: 4, Funny
    with some protections included, of course

    Well, it's good to see the pr0n industry finally taking safe sex seriously ...
    1. Re:Protections? by blank101 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As "funny" as that may be, I'd bet the porn industry was wary of sexually transmitted disease and unwanted pregnancy far before the general public. I imagine it was a much more immediate matter of survival for them, in addition to being a more rapidly obvious problem.

  7. Coz They Cant Lobby by ikejam · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think it has more to do with the fact that since no politican can afford to be seen lobbied by a porn cartel, they have to come up with fairer solutions...

    1. Re:Coz They Cant Lobby by dsgitl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Quite a few politicians -- on both sides -- receive money from whomever it is that owns SpectraVision and other hotel services. While Congressmen might not get contributions directly from porn, they do receive monies, ha ha, on the back end.

      If you're looking for a source, I can offer you the Al Franken show. That's where I heard this information. He was ralling against John McCain for taking contributions from the porn, but that seemed to be a bit of a, ha ha gain, stretch.

  8. The REAL scary truth for hollywood... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...is that porn movies are better acted, the dialog is more natural and they feature less contrived and often more thought provoking plots than most over-hyped 'blockbusters'. That and more titty ;-)

    1. Re:The REAL scary truth for hollywood... by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Funny

      NOW I know why porn is so frowned upon by politicians and bible fanatics alike.

      It's thought provoking. Yeah, that's it!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  9. Link to article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Submitter forgot to include link to article http://www.digg.com/movies/The_Pornographers_vs._T he_Pirates

  10. Will they really tell you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Do you think your father will openly tell you that just last week he purchased a subscription to this fantastic bondage porno site? Do you think your boss will tell you that ten minutes ago, between meetings with clients, he spent $19.95 for the "Girls Gone Crazy: Kansas City!" and "Eugenia's Booby Paradise" video combo he saw advertised on TV last night? Do you think that the Republican senator who just rallied against sexuality in video games, and who also just bought some photos of girls fellating horses, will let you know? Probably not.

    Then again, you likely don't understand the true size of the market. Even if they have a 99% piracy rate, that 1% of sales is so much that they're all very well off.

  11. Holywood? by obli · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Holywood" - is that some sort of nasty pun aiming at a profitable male porn star or just a typo?

    1. Re:Holywood? by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Funny

      Sounds like a Christian porn movie.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  12. Intentional purchases? by telchine · · Score: 3, Funny

    Do people intentionally buy porn? I assumed the whole industry was funded by IE users accidentally installing premium rate dialers. I guess now that broadband is so popular the porographers need to find another revenue stream.

  13. Bigger Business by pianoman113 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Pornography has always been a huge business, and they have always been on the bleeding edge of technology. Look at the internet. Long before their was the World Wide Web there were dial-in BBS's where people could download pornography. When VCRs came out, pornography was almost immediately available on video cassettes.
    The pornography business' profit margin is much higher and that allows them much more freedom to innovate in their distribution. That, and they have no doubt that people will continue to consume their product.
    I doubt they'll ever eliminate the pirates, but they will lead the way technologically for flexible video distribution.

    --

    Free as in speech, free as in beer, or free as in lunch?
    1. Re:Bigger Business by PhiltheeG · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Add to the above the fact that pornographic material is easily reusable and can be repackaged numerous ways at a low cost. Pornography also lends itself very well to the type of on-demand, pick-what-you-want Internet mentality. Theoretically a studio can sign a group of performers to a contract to shoot a set number of scenes, distribute those scenes in DVD format in full-length movies, repackage the scenes later as a "best-of performer" then redistrbute, slice and repackage the individual scenes the redistribute them by genre, etc. etc. It is still all the same stuff, simply packaged differently and offered in a way a consumer would like. Also, think of the possibilities for repackaging "classic" movies and redistributing of billions of hours of material.

      --
      -Phil
      Shoot questions, first ask later...
    2. Re:Bigger Business by dajak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think so. It's a cottage industry. Look up reports and numbers for publicly listed porn empires like Private or Beate Uhse. Income is low compared to the normal media, profit margins are in the normal range, and the retailers keep most of the money. The more likely explanation is that these companies have few 'intangible assets' in the form of goodwill, lobbying power in politics, or longterm relationships with partners in related industries anyway, and therefore have little reason to try to resist change.

  14. World peace by Roy+van+Rijn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The biggest advances in internet technology are made because of porn, file-sharing, P2P, search engines, image formats (more porn per mb), movie encryption etc.

    But there is one thing I don't believe, Porn isn't going to stop piracy, it created it! (One of the best things on the web!)
    If porn proves to be the key in stopping piracy, then I truly think porn will create world peace...

    And... why burn on DVD for personal use...???
    Isn't porn something you only watch once, you know the whole story and get bored? Isn't that the whole reason we watch porn, because the same woman every night bores us!?

    --
    My blog: http://www.redcode.nl
    1. Re:World peace by frickendevil · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You cant stop piracy, period. You can however slow it down, and the porn industry has taken the first step towards this. I believe you missed the point that porn dvds are being sold on the web and being delivered via digital means instead of buying a hard copy, this tactic has worked brilliantly with mp3 downloads, as long as they are reasonably priced, people will pay for the convenience. If the movie industry followed suit of the porn industry, they too will be able to "keep on top" of piracy (for lack of a better saying, pun intended)

      As for burning it onto a DVD, there are thousands of reasons. Including:
      1. Getting tips from a pro - If you watch a world cup soccer match, it doesnt make you a world cup soccer player. But it can give you ideas on how to better yourself, and if you watch it over and over, you understand how it works, then you can just go practice it.

      2. Some full length porn features are really long, especially the ones without stories. So it could take you a while to get through it, having convenience on DVD.

      3. Save space on your computer.

      4. Easier to put a DVD into a dvd player then it is to drag a laptop or a monitor over towards your bed to watch it with your girl/boy/trannyfriend.

      5. Label it family photos and the kids will never touch it.

      6. Easier to share with friends.

      7. A particular porn star might just tickle your fancy, so you watch it for them, instead of the movie itself.

      8. Being able to give a physical size to your collection, giving you bragging rights "Mine is bigger then yours!"

      9. If your computer breaks down, and you need to take it to a techie, they wont find your stash after you have already burnt and deleted it.

      10. Same reason anyone buys any movies on DVD or VHS for that matter, after 5 years you forgotten the nitty gritty parts and you can rewatch and learn.

      BTW just because you don't share your porn with a kinky significant other (if you have one that is) doesn't mean other people don't. I would prefer my porn in DVD format.

  15. ofcourse a Yugoslav mobster helps too by Raindeer · · Score: 3, Informative

    Guy I know used to have a well known server with free illegit porn. This server got to be quite well known around the world. One of the reasons he stopped was that a Yugoslav guy with some Yugo-mob connections came to his door to politely request the removal of content that the Yugo considered to be his copyrighted works.

    Now the RIAA and MPAA have done some nefarious things to convince people to stop sharing music and movies, but getting the mob involved.. I haven't heard that one yet. Even when they get Uncle Sam involved, there is a chance of due course.

    --
    Use Adsense for Charity
  16. What is this world coming to? by EdMack · · Score: 2, Funny

    `buy movies online to burn them from their computers onto DVDs, with some protections included, of course.'

    I need to use protection for (ahem) solo-sex now? Oh god! What if it's too late?

    --
    puts ("Python r0cks\n");
  17. Re:The real technique they're using... by jamesh · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Free porn has been available since the invention of alcohol and anyone with enough nerve to nod suggestively at a lady. That is, free-as-in-"give her a"-beer :)

    (I've been waiting a long time for the appropriate place to use that line!)

  18. No chance for support from Uncle Sam by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Uncle Sam would have to admit that he cared for porn, doubt that will happen soon.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  19. I learned my lesson. by Killshot · · Score: 5, Informative

    When I first got into the adult industry, I fought really hard to "protect" my copyrights. Any time I found my photos elsewhere on the internet I would have my lawyer send out threatening letters, I would try to sue people. I would get peoples websites shut down.. it cost a lot of time and money and mostly I just pissed people off.

    Eventually I figured out that in most cases when people copied my photos and shared them.. it increased revenue because people would come to my site looking for more. I then restricted any lawsuits to people who would charge money to access content they stole from me.

    I think the music and movie industry could learn the same lesson.

    1. Re:I learned my lesson. by castlec · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Where do you operate from? I've been kinda thinking about starting a side business here in the Czech Republic. The women are plentiful and inexpensive but I really don't know what the sales value of a set are. Care to comment? You can contact me through email if you like.

      --
      When I tell an object to delete this, am I killing it or telling it to kill me?
    2. Re:I learned my lesson. by TwistedEvo · · Score: 5, Funny

      Simple question.

      How many of you just couldn't resist clicking on the parent's home page?

    3. Re:I learned my lesson. by cgreuter · · Score: 4, Funny

      How many of you just couldn't resist clicking on the parent's home page?]

      I admit, I took a look.

      But only to read the articles.

  20. What does it say about the human race by forgotten_my_nick · · Score: 3, Insightful

    when all our advances in technology can be linked to porn or the military?

    1. Re:What does it say about the human race by d3ac0n · · Score: 2, Funny

      Don't mess with us, or we'll Whip you and THEN Screw you! :)

      --
      Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
    2. Re:What does it say about the human race by Rude+Turnip · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They're abstracts of every other living entity's desire to reproduce and willingness to kill to do so and survive? Just my $0.02.

      --
      Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
  21. When will these people face reality! by l0rd · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What are these people bitching about? It's ridiculous to see 100% of pircacy as lost revenue.

    Newsflash: Most people don't pay for porn. Most people don't need that much porn. Most people aren't your target market.

    The way I see this is that a (relative) minority of people actually pay for porn. Everyone else just gets it from P2P and that ain't gonna change.

  22. Pornographers and Ninjas find common cause! by TempeTerra · · Score: 3, Funny

    This is terrible news! If Pirates are now fighting Pornographers as well as their age-old enemies the Ninjas global temperatures will be sure to rise even further! My advice: buy land in Alaska.

    Furthermore, Pornographers are well known for their ability to quickly subvert any new technology for pornographic ends. This suggests that the Robots will soon be enslaved, forming a fearsome Robot Ninja Pornographer alliance! What hope is there now for the noble Pirates? The monkeys certainly won't be any help. How could a mere monkey hope to oppose a Robot Ninja Pornographer?

    --
    .evom ton seod gis eht
  23. Re:Hypocrites by jamstigator · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Heh, I never understood the concept of immorality with porn. It's moral to HAVE sex, but it's immoral to WATCH sex? Even some of the laws are ridiculous. For example, in the state where I live, you can legally have sex with someone for four years, enough time to generate five batches of children, before you can legally WATCH sex. In other words, you can be legally giving blowjobs left and right for 4 years, but during that time you are not allowed to watch any type of instructional video on how to give a GOOD blowjob. That just seems like a waste to me. ;)

  24. And more interesting... by IANAAC · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Is the fact that one is incredibly well funded for research of new technologies, while the other gets no funding.

    Yet both groups manage to come up with advances.

  25. Re:Hollywood should copying by LittleBigLui · · Score: 2, Funny
    What exactly is fake in porn movies ?


    Tits, orgasms, enjoyment, cum, ...

    --
    Free as in mason.
  26. Re:Obligatory joke. by Moqui · · Score: 3, Funny

    Quite the connundrum then. The vigilant distrust for all things DRM-related, or the satisfaction of midget on midget fetish porn, with ponies.

    Sometimes the Internet isn't all it was cracked up to be -- with moral decisions such as that. :)

  27. CAPITALISM AT IT'S BEST: Supply and Demand by eno2001 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The demand for the products that the pr0n industry produces far dwarfs the demand for the crap that the (MP|RI)AA -- (Note how cool it is that I used a RegEx and actually used MORE characters instead of less to say the same thing. I am 1337, bow down.) put out. Basically if you've got everyone chomping at the bit for your product and you know they're going to sell hard and fast, then you're not going to be averse to letting a little product slip through your fingers. Especially if youre product is cheap. Unlike Hollywood, the porn industry puts out "first run" movies for about $40 and then progressively drops the price the older the product is. If you're a smart porn conneseur, you can buy movies that are one or two years old for only $10. Let's see Hollywood do THAT. It'll never happen. And you know why? Because the music and movie industries KNOW that their product is total crap in terms of demand. Yeah, some morons want the pap, but they don't want to pay outrageous prices for it. And based on the fact that both the RIAA and the MPAA are looking to outlaw the sale of used product more than twice (meaning you can't sell beyond one person) beyond the original sale, I'd say that there's going to be a whole lotta thievin' goin' on... Have a nice day chumps.

    --
    -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o