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Government Adds Consumer Databases To Mining Queries

mrraven writes "According to an article in the Washington Post the government is increasingly using consumer databases for surveillance purposes. " From the article: "It is difficult to pinpoint the number of such contracts because many of them are classified, experts said. At the federal level, 52 government agencies had launched, or planned to begin, at least 199 data-mining projects as far back as 2004, according to a Government Accountability Office study."

179 comments

  1. Nothing to see here. Move along by ad0gg · · Score: 0

    Slashdot really needs to change their error messgae when you click on read more link and the story isn't ready yet. Scared me for a second considering the topic.

    --

    Have you ever been to a turkish prison?

    1. Re:Nothing to see here. Move along by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Actually....I'll bet one 'neat-o' result of this...finding all you naughty people out there that are not paying taxes on your internet purchases!!

      I'll bet there are other good relationships they can find to make the citizens 'pay more'....

      Some states (Mass?) are already doing stuff like this...wait till you get it on a Fed. level...

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  2. Obligatory Yakov Smirnov by tpjunkie · · Score: 0

    In Soviet Amerika, data mines you!

    1. Re:Obligatory Yakov Smirnov by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's 3 "K"'s you insensitive clod!

  3. Uh Oh! by nog_lorp · · Score: 5, Funny

    I knew I shouldn't have answered the question "When is the last time you purchased weapons of mass destruction?" on that Safeway survey!

    1. Re:Uh Oh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but the Safeway brand WMDs were so much cheaper than the Lockheed brand, it was to good to pass up!

    2. Re:Uh Oh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Personally, I'm still loyal to Acme, they deliver

      -- Willie E Coyote

    3. Re:Uh Oh! by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      I knew I shouldn't have answered the question "When is the last time you purchased weapons of mass destruction?" on that Safeway survey!

      You should do like I did, and have a Safeway card registered under the name Richard M. Nixon. Presidents are immune from questioning about WMD.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    4. Re:Uh Oh! by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 1
      I knew I shouldn't have answered the question "When is the last time you purchased weapons of mass destruction?" on that Safeway survey!

      1) Go to $grocery_store
      2) Fill out club card
      3) Put the name and address of someone you don't like
      4) Buy weapons of mass destruction on sale with club card
      5) ???
      6) (Oil) Profit!

    5. Re:Uh Oh! by TWX · · Score: 1

      Just register your club card to some fake name and always pay cash.

      I'm sure that they're wondering who the hell "Oliver Clozoff" is, and why he or she is buying Mentos and Diet Coke at the same time...

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    6. Re:Uh Oh! by demachina · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It would be possible to use this kind of mining to catch someone buying a ton of ammonium nitrate fertilizer, some plastic barrels, and diesel fuel. You might catch an Al Qaeda terrorist or a Tim McVeigh preparing a very large bomb, or you might net about a million farmers. Presumably your data mining would use other information sources to narrow the focus to Arab Muslims who are either terrorists or farmers. Of course when you do that you would let all the Tim McVeigh's out of your net. Maybe you can factor in Ryder truck rentals to get them back in the net, so the query is:

      Ammonium Nitrate && barrels && diesel && (Arab Muslim || Ryder truck rental)

      I don't know about anyone else, but I would really prefer the government stop spying on all Americans in a mostly futile effort to catch a relatively small number of Muslim extremists. I would prefer the government had focused on dismantling Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, since they were actually responsible for 9/11 and are still mostly not held to account. I would have preferred they hadn't gone off on a tangent and off the deep end in Iraq and in spying in the U.S. For example it is insane to make everyone take off their shoes in airports, from now on, because one guy put some explosives in his shoes once and it didn't even work. People on airplanes will freak if they see someone try to light their shows now so I'm not very worried about this vector of attack. It was insane to create a concentration camp in Gitmo, and it is really insane to snatch up innocent people with Rendition, endorse the use of torture, and dismantle due process all of which have permanently tarnished the U.S. in the eyes of the world and made many Americans ashamed.

      I can probably live with the FBI focusing some attention on Arab Muslim men who are in this country on visa's of one and if they are doing things that are suspicious, get a FISA warrant and spy the hell out of them. FISA warrants are almost never denied and at least there would be some restraint on the spying. All the spying that is going on has NO restraints on it, and is ripe for and probably is being abused.

      Sure its possible another 9/11 plot slips through the cracks, but its a smaller price to pay than the one we are paying by turning the U.S. in to a police state, reviled by the rest of the world, and that is what we are getting. Even worse we are getting a police state that can make extensive use of computers and networks to create a police state that is more all knowing and all seeing than any in history. And it is a police state with nukes, lots and lots of nukes, and the most powerful military in world history(though it still can't control the streets of Baghdad).

      A new 9/11 plot might kill some people but the war in Iraq has killed far more people than 9/11 did and in a year or so it will have killed more Americans than 9/11 did, having passed the 2500 mark this week. A new 9/11 plot might cause a lot of economic damage like the first, but the war in Iraq is heading towards the half trillion dollar mark, we are spending more there every month than we spent during the height of Vietnam(adjusted for inflation) and Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. American should have whacked Al Qaeda after 9/11, and then laughed in their face and said we aren't going to play your game, we are going to be an even better and freer country than before and do some things that would make a real difference in the world, and in the eyes of Muslims, like resolve the mess in Israel.

      All I'm saying is:

      Dear Government, Please stop being insane, Please stop spying on me, Please stop wasting all my tax dollars and borrowing my country in to a hole it will never get out of. Please stop making the rest of the world completely hate America and Americans. I like the rest of the world and I would like them to like me. The fewer people who hate America, the fewer people there are who will want to blow it up. Please FBI keep an eye on Ara

      --
      @de_machina
    7. Re:Uh Oh! by nog_lorp · · Score: 1

      Damnit, I made a dumb joke, and you have to go respond with something thoughtful and informative! Damn you!

      Ammonium Nitrate && barrels && diesel && (Arab Muslim || Ryder truck rental)

      More like: "(Democrat || Liberal || Green || Party) || (Black || Organic Food || Alternative Energy)"

      That'll catch all those terrorist. Now throw all them onto that list of felons who can't vote, just like they did with all the black people in Florida...

    8. Re:Uh Oh! by jbrader · · Score: 1

      We always use my inlaw's club card. The data has to look pretty funny as it would all be concetrated in two stores many miles apart and with very different buying habits.

      --
      You are so boring that when I see you my feet go to sleep.
    9. Re:Uh Oh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NObody hates America or Americans - just despising the USAen government ;)

    10. Re:Uh Oh! by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      "Now throw all them onto that list of felons who can't vote, just like they did with all the black people in Florida..."

      That's been demonstrated to be fiction. The votes disposed of were split along party and racial lines because they were random. If you have proof otherwise, link it.

    11. Re:Uh Oh! by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      "...or you might net about a million farmer."
      No, farmers register for use.

      "I would really prefer the government stop spying on all Americans in a mostly futile effort to catch a relatively small number of Muslim extremists."
      Yes, ever so much easier to follow the trail of debris and body parts, eh? Yes, they are small in percentage and number, but they do mega-death and damage. I prioritize for proaction, not reaction.

      "I would prefer the government had focused on dismantling Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan..."
      Actually, they are. Perhaps you don't read enough news. Or, maybe you think those organizations are small monoliths, restricting their members and activities to that area?

      "All the spying that is going on has NO restraints on it, and is ripe for and probably is being abused."
      Are you referring to the activity in the article? Did you read the article? They are buying data from the commercial sector and using it. This is spying how?

      "Sure its possible another 9/11 plot slips through the cracks, but its a smaller price to pay than the one we are paying by turning the U.S. in to a police state, reviled by the rest of the world, and that is what we are getting."
      That is merely your opinion, and one that shows you have no problem with straw arguments. By the way, privacy != anonymity.

      "A new 9/11 plot might kill some people but the war in Iraq has killed far more people than 9/11 did and in a year or so it will have killed more Americans than 9/11 did, having passed the 2500 mark this week."
      Yes, a new 9/11 might kill as many U.S. citizens and far fewer fanatics in an hour as the whole Iraq war has.

      "...make a real difference in the world, and in the eyes of Muslims, like resolve the mess in Israel."
      And the hidden meaning there is what, "pushing Israel into the sea"?

      Your last paragraph is interesting. In it you list things the FBI should have done (which would have "stopped" 9/11), which is pretty much exactly what they're trying to do now. (You don't think they would have discovered the Saudis learning to take off and not land without the "mining", do you?) Yet, you ask that they do none of these things. How then do you suggest they determine those individuals that are doing suspicions things which might lead to another 9/11?

      I especially like your last barb where you elevate your exquisite political perceptions above "most people". Nice touch of self-authority there.

    12. Re:Uh Oh! by Aquaholic · · Score: 1
      I would prefer the government had focused on dismantling Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, since they were actually responsible for 9/11 and are still mostly not held to account. I would have preferred they hadn't gone off on a tangent and off the deep end in Iraq and in spying in the U.S.


      Unfortunately there's no business case for the former -- hell there's a great case to keep those scarey boogy men out there; while there's been an absolutely huge case ($$$lobbiying effort$$$) made by 'good upstanding patriotic American companies'. "of course our product xxxxx will help catch 'Terrorists', just invest $(M/B) and we'll show you".

      Shysters to the nth degree, but they speak the language the currnet government understands - private business can do anything in this country.
    13. Re:Uh Oh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      My supermarket allows you to punch in your phone number if you've lost their (dis-)loyalty card. Punching in someone else's number, or a transposition of digits in my own phone number, works fine. Although, of course, I'm sure my Catholic neighbors are wondering why they get discount coupons for matzoh and gefilte fish in spring instead of coupons for eggs and candy.

      I suggest the same thing for our brethren who purchase halal goods, too. We should do all we can to confuse the next Reich, should it arise.

      Posted anonymously, of course!

    14. Re:Uh Oh! by vague_ascetic · · Score: 1

      I would really prefer the government stop spying on all Americans in a mostly futile effort to catch a relatively small number of Muslim extremists.

      Yes, ever so much easier to follow the trail of debris and body parts, eh? Yes, they are small in percentage and number, but they do mega-death and damage. I prioritize for proaction, not reaction.

      The government has been damn effective securing convictions against muslim men using due process of law, too.

      The sad case of Sami al-Hussayen should be a warning to all. After the jury acquited on all terror charges and hung on a few immigration violations, the prosecutiong US attorney admitted that the case was extremely weak, but that justice had been served.

      This is why Guantanamo Bay should not be tolerated. If they cannot secure convictions against these humans, in a tribunal which adheres to due process of law in an open courtroom, then it is inhumane, UnAmerican, and Unconstitutional to deprive them of life, liberty and/or property.

      Didn't we have a revolution because some other guy named George was doing this crap?

      • For depriving humans, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
      • For transporting humans beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
      --
      Rush Limbaugh is a perfect real world example of an oxycontinmoron
    15. Re:Uh Oh! by Ricofencer · · Score: 1

      Hmmm, perhaps this will appease you Vanishing Votes.

    16. Re:Uh Oh! by demachina · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Actually, they are. Perhaps you don't read enough news. Or, maybe you think those organizations are small monoliths, restricting their members and activities to that area?"

      The U.S. and Pakistan has made no viable effort in the tribal areas of Waziristan. Afghanistan and has turned it in to a narco-state thanks to the corruption of the U.S. supported government, and on the other hand a home for a resurgent Taliban. You see the U.S. backed government is so bad, the Taliban looks good by comparison. Rumsfeld's failed strategy of using the North Alliance on the ground and the U.S. in the air, scattered the Taliban and Al Qaeda. It did very little to actually catch or punish them.

      " In it you list things the FBI should have done (which would have "stopped" 9/11), which is pretty much exactly what they're trying to do now."

      You fail to grasp the concept. You see the FBI could have stopped 9/11 just using some basic police work and good communication, with the powers they had pre 9/11 and and pre patriot act. They don't need to spy on all Americans to catch Al Qaeda. The FISA courts worked fine the way they were, sure it was some paperwork but that is a small price to pay to prevent spying on innocent people.

      What they are doing now is massive overkill and of dubious merit. It is in like making you take your shoes off to get on an airplane. It makes it seem like they are doing something when in fact they are just punishing innocent people to give those same people a false sense that they are doing something effective.

      "They are buying data from the commercial sector and using it. This is spying how?"

      Because they can and probably are correlating it with all the other data they have, much of which is illegally obtained like our phone call records, and evesdropping on our every form of communication without FISA warrants, probably illegally accessing our IRS records, sneak and peak searches which is basically the Patriot act authorizing the government to break and enter in to our homes and businesses withour our knowledge.

      The cumulative effect is our government is accumulating vastly more information about us than they should. Knowledge is power and when our government can use computers and networks to accumulate all this information about us they are becoming enormously dangerous. If I could trust them that would be one thing, but Hoover and Nixon and all the bad things the CIA and FBI have done in the past when they started spying on America suggests they can't be trusted. It is inevitable all this spying will turn in to spying on dissidents, to suppress dissent, and smearing political opponents to suppress democracy, and to just suppress our right to free speech and right to privacy in general.

      " (You don't think they would have discovered the Saudis learning to take off and not land without the "mining", do you?)"

      Dude, the flight schools they were at reported them to the FBI because they were being suspicious. As I recall TWO different schools reported them in Arizona and I think Minnesota. THERE WASN'T ANY MINING INVOLVED. They ARRESTED Moussaoui a month before 9/11 because of it, and were holding him on a visa violation. The FBI could have foiled 9/11 with some basic police work but they didn't because they are an inept bureaucracy.

      " How then do you suggest they determine those individuals that are doing suspicions things which might lead to another 9/11? "

      Arab men in this country on visa's deserve more some scrutiny by default, since all the 9/11 attackers were Arab men and citizens of Middle Eastern countries and likely will be in the future. Unfortunately there is a degree of racial profiling there but, but its against people who aren't U.S. citizens and I am OK with that, that is a smaller price than trashing the civil liberties of citizens who have done nothing wrong nor will they.

      You see you are presuming all this bullshit is actually going to foil th

      --
      @de_machina
    17. Re:Uh Oh! by girolamous · · Score: 1

      Mostly agree with what demachina says but the problem is: How do we retaliate against Al Qaeda or any other terrorist organization? As a superpower, we are supposed to eschew commando tactics, and have only used them when hostages were at stake. Other encumbrances of this status are that we are supposed to treat adversaries in a humanitarian way, and generally conduct military operations with something like public disclosure. So how does this 20-ton gorilla/kitten find a small group of assassins and bring them to justice? We declare war. Our hands then become tied by the same rules of engagement that we used sixty years ago in WWII. What we need is a rapid-reaction capability to conduct limited counterterrorist activities against terrorist groups who intentionally harm US citizens. Do it with fast with overwhelming force before the scum have time to run and hide.

      --
      0! 0!
  4. What's the big deal? by qw(name) · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Commercial companies are doing far worse and most of them don't ensure the same level of privacy as the government would maintain.

    1. Re:What's the big deal? by nog_lorp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't have a great deal of faith in the government's regard for my privacy. I think it is all too likely that some of this data will either be:
      1) "Mentioned" in a conversation with a reporter, or
      2) Recorded in a portable medium (disks of some sort) and lost accidentally.

    2. Re:What's the big deal? by mrraven · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What like sell their data to the government? Hmmmmm...

      --
      Tired of all the isms, don't exploit people as an employer, or a government, mmmmK?
    3. Re:What's the big deal? by Umbral+Blot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes but we expect companies to be greedy and to try to get away with as much as they can. On the other hand the government is supposed to represent the people and respect our rights. A company is created by a few people for their benefit, but the government is created by all the people, and it should be run to the benefit of everyone, not just the power-hungry and the wealthy.

    4. Re:What's the big deal? by Poppler · · Score: 1
      Commercial companies are doing far worse and most of them don't ensure the same level of privacy as the government would maintain.

      The government can put you in jail.
      --
      What's the ugliest part of your body? Some say your nose, some say your toes, but I think it's your mind. -Zappa
    5. Re:What's the big deal? by Hrodvitnir · · Score: 1

      "same level of privacy as the government would maintain.

      Yes, the U.S. government goes to great lengths to protect the information it collects.

      --
      "There are more important things than stopping terrorism. Upholding the Constitution is one of them." - Ars Forumer.
    6. Re:What's the big deal? by AuMatar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ANd that isn't right either. The US needs some real data protection laws, similar to whats in Europe. SOmething along the lines of "Its illegal to sell non-annonymized personal data, without their written permission. You are not allowed to make price breaks or sales of goods/sevices dependant on giving written permission" and "It is illegal to give personal information to the government without a court order." and put a nice long jail term and fine on each of those.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    7. Re:What's the big deal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you believe one group of people should have the right to snoop on another group, follow all their activities, track their conversations, count their money, keep track of what they're reading, all the while extorting money from that group to build the infrastructure for their their spy network? And at the same time, viciously guarding their own secrets and privacy, on pain of death?

      If the group calls itself "government", your answer is, apparently yes. I would say I feel sorry for you, but I don't. You're just mindless flotsam. I feel sorry for me - because the government is in power because of people like you.

      You. Tool.

    8. Re:What's the big deal? by LewsTherinKinslayer · · Score: 1

      but the government is created by all the people, and it should be run to the benefit of everyone, not just the power-hungry and the wealthy.

      i suggest you read Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States" to gain some more insight on this topic. the united states wasn't created by all, it was created by a minority. and throughout our history, most everything has been done with the power-hungry and wealthy in mind.

      government as an ideal may strive to grant and protect people's rights; but government as a reality isn't quite so simple.

    9. Re:What's the big deal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What rights have been circumvented by this?
      Privacy? I think not, the information was "voluntarily" provided to these companies. Personally, I think the amount of information many companies collect on individuals should be illegal.

    10. Re:What's the big deal? by ScottLindner · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You should have the same level of trust for the companies that are quietly selling your company to anyone that is willing to pay the price.

      At least with the government, they are looking for illegal activity (currently). The commerical world could give a rip what you do, or how their actions harm you. It's all about making money.

      Every visit a site to buy something, tell them to not bug you, and the next day your new email address is thrashed with SPAM? Happens all the time to me. I create a new email address for each vendor and have the email pulled into a special account I use for buying stuff online. It's too painful to check every account so I use this one account to know when something is up with an order. It sucks to see how so many companies actively violate their own privacy policies sometimes within minutes, and especially when they provide you the falicy of protection from such abuse with a meaningless check box that has the words "Exclude from third parties..." yadda yadda yadda .. BULLSHIT!

      But yah.. let's keep up the group hate for the government since it is the only thing to focus our hate on these days.

      --
      Slashdot.. where people join together in deliberate ignorance.
    11. Re:What's the big deal? by kimvette · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is a slight problem.

      You are asking the legislature and executive branches of government to pass bills into law which would limit their power.

      Not. Gonna. Happen. in today's world. :(

      Use your vote wisely. Vote out the current scumbags, and give a new crook a chance. ;)

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    12. Re:What's the big deal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where the heck have you been for the last 6 years? The corporations have rights and are asserting them.

    13. Re:What's the big deal? by kfg · · Score: 1

      How many of these private companies offer free, lifetime vacations in Cuba based on what they think of your data?

      KFG

    14. Re:What's the big deal? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "Commercial companies are doing far worse and most of them don't ensure the same level of privacy as the government would..."

      Yup...heck, if they connect to Acxiom's databases...they'll already have about all the info on US citizens they need.

      They get records from all types of sources, US Postal change of address, states that sell drivers licenses, phone books, warranty cards...etc.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    15. Re:What's the big deal? by Goblez · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem with your assement here is the definition of what's illegal. Sure, that's fine if it's ensuring that violent criminals are being taken care of, but as it's used against (yours, ours, my) children for downloading music, or later down the road against those that disagree or speak against what they do (or what we don't know that they do), then you have a problem.

      And maybe if you think everyone is just group hating the government, maybe you need to pay closer attention.

      --
      - Kal`Goblez
    16. Re:What's the big deal? by ScottLindner · · Score: 1

      But the problem with your argument is that with the laws you don't like and your rampant distaste for the government, you STILL get to know how the information is being used.. in persuit of busting people that break the laws. We know what those laws are. You should already be avoiding them.

      With a company.. you have absolutely no clue or control over what they do or how they want to perceive your actions. Take the RIAA for example. If they found you had a single MP3 on your computer they're likely to call you a terrorist.

      Believe me.. I fear the government too and think this Patriot Act crap and wire tapping is going on way too long and way too far of a breach of our Constitutional protections from this sort of behavior. But I'm still going to persist that you should fear the companies even more. Because they have far less controls on them then the government does.

      --
      Slashdot.. where people join together in deliberate ignorance.
    17. Re:What's the big deal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least with the government, they are looking for illegal activity (supposedly). The commerical world could give a rip what you do, or how their actions harm you. It's all about making money.

      There you go, fixed that obvious typo in your post for you.

    18. Re:What's the big deal? by WiJO · · Score: 1
      You are asking the legislature and executive branches of government to pass bills into law which would limit their power.
      I think he was referring to placing limitations on civilian use of data. The U.S. government would still have its normal power to collect information tracking your every thought, word and deed.
      The U.S. government has already proven that it cannot be trusted with information. If it isn't being used in a potentially unconsitutional data-mining operation, it's being lost by idiot bureaucrats.
    19. Re:What's the big deal? by ScottLindner · · Score: 1

      and what exactly are they going to bust you of if you're doing things that are completely legal? The best they can do is use it as a tip to create a new law which then will become illegal.

      I don't like the wire taps and Patriot Act either.. but let's get a grip on some sanity here. There are greater things to fear than the government collecting the information we FREELY PROVIDE. Did you read the report last week about this becoming the biggest threat for identify theft? You think some Joe is going to write a huge data mining bot to harvest and correlate information on thousands of people to steal their identities? Or would it be organized crime and corporations that do this sort of thing?

      You're putting too much effort into hating the government without much logical thought on the matter. If you care so much.. stop posting personal information on websites! Then this entire topic goes away. That's all the more they are adding to this data minin operation that has everyone in an uproar. Why the fuss over something you are WILLINGLY GIVING TO THEM?

      --
      Slashdot.. where people join together in deliberate ignorance.
    20. Re:What's the big deal? by jkauzlar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The only example you gave was the RIAA, which is a monopolistic sort of union that by reason of its monopoly can get away with all kinds of shit that most companies can't. K-Mart has to be fairly courteous to their customers and not accuse them of terrorism, pat them down before leaving the store, etc. Microsoft can get away with some of the same shit, like putting spyware in their OWN operating system. All of that shows what kind of unreasonable power they have. Most companies that are not monopolies are just trying to improve their marketing, which is mostly alright with me, considering that the alternative is blind mass mailing. The gov't is not trying to sell us anything. They want to maintain as much power as possible over the people. We don't know if they want to protect Americans or protect themselves, hence the checks and balances of the Constitution. That last point is what most Americans don't seem to get. Our 'freedom' relies entirely on that point.

    21. Re:What's the big deal? by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      "Privacy? I think not, the information was "voluntarily" provided to these companies."

      emphasis mine. Volunteered to the corporation, not to the government. I should be able to control where information about me that I volunteer goes - if the people I volunteer it to can pass it on to their hearts content, I might as well assume that if I give anyone information, within 6 months it will be known by everyone. Considering that there is information about me that I would rather that some people did not have, should I not give that information to anyone? Should I not tell my health insurer about my health because they would be free to pass it on with impunity?

      --
      FGD 135
    22. Re:What's the big deal? by Trailwalker · · Score: 1
      Or would it be organized crime and corporations that do this sort of thing?
      To many people, our current government is organized crime.

      eg Mark Twain: Congress is America's only native criminal class.
    23. Re:What's the big deal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      K-Mart has to be fairly courteous to their customers and not accuse them of terrorism, pat them down before leaving the store, etc

      Just show your receipt and have your bag thoroughly checked before you leave.

      (Which, by the way, you can legally tell them no, but expect to be delayed exiting)

    24. Re:What's the big deal? by pheesh55 · · Score: 1

      The difference that you ignore is the power that is behind the respective parties. For a private company what does this information allow? Well pretty much the most they can do with it is to better target products to your buying habits. But for the government? They have the power to blackmail, audit, imprison etc etc etc. They are putting together a massive databse to make judgements on people based on such things as when they call somebody, or what they buy. If you pop up in whatever algorithm the government comes up with it'll be a tad different then getting an advertisement fit to your tastes..

    25. Re:What's the big deal? by schwaang · · Score: 1
      The US needs some real data protection laws, similar to whats in Europe.
      I've come to the same conclusion. I'm not aware of proposed legislation to do this, but if any bubbles up I'll be phoning my congresscritters in support of it. It's way overdue.
    26. Re:What's the big deal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the government is created by all the people, and it should be run to the benefit of everyone, not just the power-hungry and the wealthy

      Finally, a situation to which the exclamation

      BWAAHHHHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!

      truly, and perfectly, applies.

    27. Re:What's the big deal? by X86Daddy · · Score: 1

      On the other hand the government is supposed to represent the people and respect our rights. A company is created by a few people for their benefit, but the government is created by all the people, and it should be run to the benefit of everyone, not just the power-hungry and the wealthy.

      A government of the people, for the people, and by the people? Are you from the past???

    28. Re:What's the big deal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The past? How about the 4th dimension? I am not aware of a single government in the history of organized coercion that has been contained long enough to even begin to claim that it represents "the people". All governments expand in power over time -- necessarily destroying the people's god-given (natural) right to freedom in the process -- and that is a fact that history proves year after year.

    29. Re:What's the big deal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Commercial companies can't storm your house at 4 AM and drag you off to prison, or send you to Cuba for "waterboarding". Companies must ultimately respond to the rule of law. The government subjects itself to the rule of law at its own discretion. You need to ask why we worry more about the government than about corporations?

    30. Re:What's the big deal? by gstoddart · · Score: 1
      Commercial companies are doing far worse and most of them don't ensure the same level of privacy as the government would maintain.

      You seem to have that backwards.

      Most people have expressed very loudly they don't trust companies with this kind of informtaion, and try very hard to ensure as few companies as possible know anything. I do not participate in surveys, store promotions, or a lot of things.

      It has always known that it would be illegal for the government to have that kind of information. It has always been suspected that once all of the companies have so much information, the government will circumvent the law and get it from buying it from companies.

      I don't trust either of them with that kind of information, and I never have. The sheer idea that we've reached a point where companies gather all of the information about you there is, and then tacitly (and illegally) sell it to the government allowing them to more or less circumvent fourth amendment protections. They basically get to contract out unreasonable search and seizure.

      Private companies should not be allowed to collect that much information on you. Government is/should be barred from collecting it on you. And the companies should be barred from sharing what they have on you without a damned good reason.

      This whole new culture of "we want all the information in case somethign interesting pops out" is quite alarming. One no longer needs to go to a judge with evidence to prove you need more. One simply sifts through everyone's information with a wide net, and anyone who is doing anything we don't approve of will be looked at.

      That's McCarthyism at it's worst!!
      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    31. Re:What's the big deal? by mpe · · Score: 1

      The problem with your assement here is the definition of what's illegal. Sure, that's fine if it's ensuring that violent criminals are being taken care of, but as it's used against (yours, ours, my) children for downloading music, or later down the road against those that disagree or speak against what they do (or what we don't know that they do), then you have a problem.

      Part of the problem is that violent criminals are dangerous to try and catch. Someone who is activly planning a mass murder isn't likely to be frightened by some police uniforms, especially if they are well armed and care little about their own life. A teenager downloading music isn't likely to have a machine gun and high explosives to hand. Political opponents tend to use words rather than ordinance.
      The difficulty is how do you keep security services focused on the job they claim to be doing. When there are so many easier options available to create the illusion of doing their job.

    32. Re:What's the big deal? by Goblez · · Score: 1

      Which is why everyone admires our police for the dangerous work they do. So realistically they need to do more of it, or not be policing the bullshit. But then if they did they, it would be worthwhile to pay them more, and since the main source of the revenue is the bullshit . . .

      --
      - Kal`Goblez
  5. Nothing to worry about by koreth · · Score: 4, Funny

    After all, I'm sure they're only scrutinizing people who are actually doing something wrong. It's the government! We can trust the government to do the right thing and not abuse its power. Unless it's the part of the government that gives money to poor people or sets school standards. That part of the government is run by a bunch of incompetent lunatics. But the part that secretly tabulates data about people, of course they're all good guys.

    1. Re:Nothing to worry about by Umbral+Blot · · Score: 1

      What is sad thought is that some people actually believe things like that.

    2. Re:Nothing to worry about by stinerman · · Score: 1

      If only I had mod points ...

      I'd like to hear the logic from a Republican slashdotter regarding the argument put forth here.

    3. Re:Nothing to worry about by BalanceOfJudgement · · Score: 1

      He's joking, people - a comic representation of the right-wing party line.

      Or, as I hilariously saw elsewhere on Slashdot today, "Whoosh!"

      --

      We are the fire that lights our world.. and we are the fire that consumes it.
    4. Re:Nothing to worry about by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      So that's why when I read it my mind provided the voice of Stephen Colbert.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    5. Re:Nothing to worry about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You call that an argument?

      Keep drinking the Kool-Aid, buddy.

    6. Re:Nothing to worry about by stinerman · · Score: 1

      So that's one for "I can't explain it".

  6. Here we go by Luscious868 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Cue the rants by the tin foil hat and the anti-Bush crowd (aka 80% of Slashdot).

    1. Re:Here we go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      95%

    2. Re:Here we go by specific · · Score: 0

      FTA "Out of pure resource allocation, it is so unlikely to provide something useful and so likely to provide dead ends and false leads that you are going to spend an enormous amount of resources on things that don't pan out," he said. "Before you start searching haystacks for needles, you've got to have some reason to believe that the needles are there."


      Bush's reasons were clear. God told him to do everything he's done so far. Our Lord and Saviour also instructed Bush to inform me that the correct math would be 95% of Slashdot readers. Hey... maybe /. is being mined, too.

      --
      If you lend someone $20 and never see that person again, it was probably worth it.
    3. Re:Here we go by Khaed · · Score: 1

      If you think 80% of /. agree on anything, I think you've been reading the wrong site.

  7. From the functional specification by Tackhead · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "It was terribly dangerous to use cash when you were in any public place and not a member of a loyalty program. The smallest thing could give you away. A falafel here, an unconscious visit to a halal butcher, a habit of not drinking, anything that carried with it the suggestion of abnormality, of having something to hide. In any case, to have insufficient data on your credit card record, was itself a punishable offense. There was even a word for it in Amspeak: feedcrime"

    - G. Orwell, Functional Specification: A Consumer Data Mining Model for Homeland Security

    The damndest part is that I drink like a fish, and the only problem I have with pork is my Homeresque refusal to believe that things as wonderful as bacon, ham, and sausage can all come from the same, magical animal.

    Unfortunately, I live next to a really good butcher's shop, and have no need of a loyalty-card based chain grocery stores. Guess I gotta get out there and start buying Lee Greenwood albums on my credit card or something.

    1. Re:From the functional specification by johnny+cashed · · Score: 1

      I pay cash. I get my "loyalty cards" by finding them in parking lots. I have about 4 differnt cards on my keyring for the same store, none of them were "registered" by me in my name. As long as I don't loose my keys, and the thing gets dumped in a mailbox, I'm fine. (most say "if found, drop in any mailbox, postage guaranteed") Or maybe I'm even better off with all the different cards. The store will not know who's it is.

    2. Re:From the functional specification by Ph33r+th3+g(O)at · · Score: 1

      Hope you always pay with cash, too--if you ever use a credit or debit card with the card you found in the parking lot, they know who you are anyway.

      --
      I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
    3. Re:From the functional specification by johnny+cashed · · Score: 1

      I do have to guard against having "insufficient data on your credit card record" right? I figure, with 4 cards, I mostly pay cash, will I get associated with all 4 cards if I use a CC one time? Maybe the guy who registered the "loyalty card" stole my credit card? You make a good point, but I'm paranoid enough as it is. Can I get some Soma?

    4. Re:From the functional specification by Ph33r+th3+g(O)at · · Score: 1

      A gramme is better than a damn, I always say. I do think having no data footprint at all will become (if it isn't already) regarded as suspicious.

      --
      I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
  8. nothing to see here ... by joeyspqr · · Score: 3, Funny

    given the bang up job the gov't is doing in New Orleans and Iraq, I don't see much to worry about.

    move along

    --
    +1 fashionably cynical
    1. Re:nothing to see here ... by glsunder · · Score: 1

      That's one of the problems. Do you trust them to be competent enough to keep all of the data secure for criminals in the public?

    2. Re:nothing to see here ... by mpe · · Score: 1

      That's one of the problems. Do you trust them to be competent enough to keep all of the data secure for criminals in the public?
      The greater risk is likely to come from spys in their midst. Regardless of if these spys work for other governments, organised crime or even corporate entities. Combined with governments just handing over the information to other governments...

  9. What not to buy with plastic by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

    Hmmm . . . Maybe I shouldn't be buying those evening gowns with my credit card.

  10. Where does it end?! by hrrY · · Score: 1

    If this doesn't reek of corporate interest and funding classified projects with private sector funds then I don't know what does. At the end of this rainbow lies a HUUGGGEEE pot of gold once the "mission is aborted". I mean what do they want to know, if terrorists are seasonal shoppers or impulse buyers?! Or maybe you can spot them by brand. I always see terrorists wearing Nike before they carry out an act of sedition...Air force One's usually, although they have been spotted in Air Huarache's in some random cases.

    1. Re:Where does it end?! by uglydog · · Score: 1

      It ends with revolution, mothafucka!

  11. I for one welcome our new Soviet Masters by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    and will proudly present my papers when searched by the Politburo's duly designated Security Police.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:I for one welcome our new Soviet Masters by Politburo · · Score: 1

      Damn right you will.

  12. How Strict? by BandwidthHog · · Score: 1
    exposes ordinary people to ever more scrutiny by authorities while skirting legal protections designed to limit the government's collection and use of personal data

    Eh, what’s wrong with an end run around the safeguards protecting our freedom and liberty? They act like that’s a bad thing or something.

    I guess when the “strict constructionists” say that the Constitution isn’t a “living document,” that must imply that it’s just some smelly old corpse to be kicked out of the way by the guy with the biggest boots.

    --

    Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
  13. Funny thing about the government by KIFulgore · · Score: 1

    If you data mine in their systems or otherwise snoop too deeply into NSA or the FBI you get yourself 5 to 10 years in federal P.M.I.T.A. prison.

    --
    - For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
  14. Who Does Classified Contracts? by aldheorte · · Score: 1

    "It is difficult to pinpoint the number of such contracts because many of them are classified,"

    If a contract is classified, who gets to bid on it? Just the big defense agency companies? Where's the oversight?

    1. Re:Who Does Classified Contracts? by glsunder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Where's the oversight?

      Thats what this is all about. People can make a lot more money with no oversight.

    2. Re:Who Does Classified Contracts? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I have a hard time understanding how this is even legal. It seems like the government is barred from doing certain things, so they instead pay somebody to do it for them. Shouldn't paying contractors -- knowingly, to commit what would otherwise be a crime -- be a crime as well?

    3. Re:Who Does Classified Contracts? by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Well as long as it's profitable, what's the problem?!?

  15. Go ahead! by drpimp · · Score: 1

    Buy my data. I don't have anything to hide (sorry paranoid /.ers I just don't care, as long as they are not telling me what to do). But I want Royalties for usage anytime my results are yielded in a search!

    --
    -- Brought to you by Carl's JR
    1. Re:Go ahead! by geekoid · · Score: 1

      What happens if you don't get a job becasue the FBI red flagged you due to a change in your routine behaviour?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Go ahead! by drpimp · · Score: 1

      That's the benefit of knowing people in the FBI. ;-) Or for that matter, living in a free country. I just work for myself then. If some job doesn't hire me because of some "routine" behaviour you are talking about. Then they get a single finger salute. There are plenty of other companies. I think you are trying to assume they are profiling every single American. When you assume, you make an ASS out of U and ME!

      --
      -- Brought to you by Carl's JR
  16. Now dont tell me corporations are NOT running u.s. by unity100 · · Score: 1

    Huh ?

    Just i have finished replying to a comment requesting that i provided an example to 'corporations taking control of a country' for another discussion.

    It is a giant conspiracy against people of united states. And money is at the helm.

  17. NEWS: Goverment not really that nice by Dr.+Max+E.+Ville · · Score: 2, Funny

    Well, DUH! Don't buy your copy of The Anarchists Cookbook on Amazon if you don't want to be called in for questioning every time some nimrod torches a McDonalds. It's just common sense.

    1. Re:NEWS: Goverment not really that nice by Marko+DeBeeste · · Score: 1

      Yeah, like they haven't been shaking down (or running) those suppliers for years.

      --
      Faith: n. -- That human impulse that drives them to steal appliances when the power goes out
  18. Today terrorism, tommorrow ??? by QCompson · · Score: 5, Informative

    What is so frightening about the data that the NSA/FBI is gathering about U.S. citizens is that while they claim it will solely be used to look for terrorists today, next year they will be using it to look for drug dealers, then file-sharers, then political "radicals", etc.

    The Patriot Act was supposedly passed to help law enforcement in their fight against terrorism, but it didn't take long before it was being used in the "war on drugs". When the Patriot Act was renewed recently, they added a provision about methamphetamine.

    In Attorney General Gonzo's own words: Importantly, the legislation provides additional tools for protecting our mass transportation systems and seaports from attack; takes steps to combat the methamphetamine epidemic that is sweeping our country; and closes dangerous loopholes in our ability to prevent terrorist financing.

    It is scary how this was packaged up under the "terrorism-oogity-boogity-label". This may all seem a bit off-topic, but it demonstrates that the government is willing and able to lump other issues into the terrorism catch-all.

    1. Re:Today terrorism, tommorrow ??? by Intron · · Score: 1

      You are overreacting. The primary purpose of this is just to look for the terrorists who are buying wood matches and lighter fluid in order to burn American Flags.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    2. Re:Today terrorism, tommorrow ??? by kinzillah · · Score: 1

      As opposed to the commies hosting block parties on the 4th of July?

      --
      Douglas P. Price
    3. Re:Today terrorism, tommorrow ??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they claim it will solely be used to look for terrorists today, next year they will be using it to look for drug dealers, then file-sharers, then political "radicals", etc.

      You mean the "substance terrorists", the "copyright terrorists" and the "ideas terrorists", there...

    4. Re:Today terrorism, tommorrow ??? by mpe · · Score: 1

      What is so frightening about the data that the NSA/FBI is gathering about U.S. citizens is that while they claim it will solely be used to look for terrorists today, next year they will be using it to look for drug dealers, then file-sharers, then political "radicals", etc.

      What proportion of the time will it actually get used to look for actual terrorists? There's also the issue of what happens when the "wrong" terrorists get caught. e.g. radical Zionists, Christian anti-abortionists, Arabs opposed to Bin Laden et al, etc.
      Someone might actually think that US Government policy is to catch all terrorists. Thus do something like getting ones backed by the US Government arrested or, slightly less damaging, some which the US Government dosn't care much about.

    5. Re:Today terrorism, tommorrow ??? by mpe · · Score: 1

      The primary purpose of this is just to look for the terrorists who are buying wood matches and lighter fluid in order to burn American Flags.

      There may be more truth than sarcasm here. For one thing these people arn't likely to actually be dangerous to arrest.

  19. history? by sum.zero · · Score: 3, Insightful

    i so love it when a vested interest puts words in the public's mouth.

    from the article:

    "The public is willing to bend the rules a little bit with respect to privacy," said Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center, adding that Americans showed similar tendencies during the "red scares" after World War I and World War II. "They are giving the government the benefit of the doubt in large part because they are concerned about terrorism."

    yep, the us government really showed how much they can be trusted in these situations. mcarthy didn't go over the top at all...

    sum.zero

    ps yes, that was sarcasm

    1. Re:history? by 0x0000 · · Score: 1

      Too bad Mr Kohut doesn't get out more - perhaps if he did he would meet some actual Americans who could tell him what they think instead of him having to make things up based on the pure vacuum that [obviously] exists in his town. Certainly he wouldn't make it very far down any street in this neighborhood spouting that kind of crap...

      --
      "The Internet is made of cats."
  20. Tag: totalinformationawareness by is+as+us+Infinite · · Score: 1

    Lest we forget:

    (o) (o)

    This is their ultimate goal. Knowing everything about everybody at all times. Except for themselves, of course...

    --
    Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur. . . . . . . .
    1. Re:Tag: totalinformationawareness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      > (o) (o)

      Hmm, the All-seeing eye logo, and the invocation IAO, all wrapped up in one juicy package.

      I'll say this much for our rulers at the Information Awareness Office, they do have a sense of humor.

      Either that, or Robert Anton Wilson really is running the show, and we're all just characters in one of his novels.

      Fnord.

  21. Propaganda and You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Why is it when Google offers free, slightly better webmail you rush to them with handfuls of your personal data and when the government offers sweeping improvements in security you defend the collection of relatively meaningless data points that you call a life like a snarling wolverine? The government isn't sending me spam, let them mine whatever they want. They can tap my phone, too, if they want. I don't care if some algorithm somewhere is analyzing my terror potential, because believe it or not, I have nothing to worry about. That's exactly the kind of government I *want* - where good, decent, respect-your-neighbor folks are free to exude personal data and the slimeball terrorists have to guard their every dirty step, living in fear themselves. I want the government to analyze my and everyone else's actions, because I know I'll come out clean. It's the neighbor everyone thought was "such a nice, quiet man" but is actually check out my asscheeks in the shower that I want to Federal Bureau of Douchebags to swoop in and ship away.

    1. Re:Propaganda and You by mrraven · · Score: 1

      Some of us don't like EITHER the corporations or the government snooping in our lives. The difference as another poster pointed out though is the corporations can't throw you in jail.

      I say that however not to let the corporations off the hook what the corporations CAN do is outsource your job, trash the environment for short term profit, and use their monopoly powers to stifle innovation. Just because the corporations are not as big a danger in snooping than the govt., it does not follow they are good or even to be trusted.

      Your best bet is to not trust any large unaccountable organization that has great power over your life.

      --
      Tired of all the isms, don't exploit people as an employer, or a government, mmmmK?
    2. Re:Propaganda and You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need to shave your ass. It's very unsightly.

      signed,

      Nice, quiet, neighbor man

    3. Re:Propaganda and You by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      Should this be rated +1 funny? you went a bit too serious if it was meant as a joke.

      That's exactly the kind of government I *want* - where good, decent, respect-your-neighbor folks are free to exude personal data and the slimeball terrorists have to guard their every dirty step, living in fear themselves

      and what about people who just want to be left alone?

      there are a lot of things illegal which are considered just fine by "respect your neighbor" folks.

      replace "terrorists" with fornicators in georgia... it's against state law there.

      there are many other laws on the books the dominant party can use to toss you in prison if they can connect you with "the pinko leftist democrats" or "the facist rightwing nutbags" and *insert any unenforced felony class law here*.

      remember.. everyone who questions the bush administration is a derty slimeball terrorist ; )

      now i'm off to plan my next "act"! im going to post another anti-republican anti-mcCarthy comment somewhere else!

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    4. Re:Propaganda and You by Stanistani · · Score: 2, Funny

      >the collection of relatively meaningless data points that you call a life

      *cries*

      I... I thought I was... special...

      The night is so cold...

    5. Re:Propaganda and You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People who want to be left alone are living in the wrong era in history. There is no alone. Unless you unplug and live "off the land", you're a part of the information ocean like the rest of us. If the laws are broken (they are), we need to fix them. We can't continue to allow obscurity to be security. What is your security is the security of the fellow with the grudge and a pipe bomb.

      There's a natural gating factor built into the law - take speeding. It's not a method of controlling road speed as much as it is a method of profiling certain vehicles for a casual search. You can speed, as long as you're not slung out low riding with 20" spinners. Am I upset when that vehicle is singled out through racial/economic profiling and searched? Not at all. It's the system working like it should. It plays the odds. There's a far greater chance that this vehicle is engaged in illegal activity than the minivan mom with the 4 kids.

      Government is in place to protect the people. When they don't do a good job, they're voted out. That's how our system works. And it does. No need to legislate our blinds shut if we're not making bombs.

    6. Re:Propaganda and You by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      OMG.. you mean the right to simple privacy also applies to people who could fly off the handle and kill someone? oh perish the thought!

      Privacy means dignity.. how about we take this to its logical conclusion and put cameras in public restrooms to prevent people "assembling or setting bombs" in public places. Oh you don't want random people staring at your pecker? too bad! you are not allowed dignity because dignity and privacy are unsafe.

      You can speed, as long as you're not slung out low riding with 20" spinners
      i got pulled over in an unremarkable gold 4 door sedan..

      How about we put GPS chips and reporting software to track your car's position and speed everywhere in the nation at all times and "automatically" fine you whenever you exceed the speed limit for whatever reason.. a mad man's after you? no dice..youre still going to pay $4000 extra for your auto insurance.

      Order comes at the expense of personal freedom and self determination.. and this nation was founded on the concept of self determination.

      don't like the idea of privacy and self determination? want to be "safer"? go to china where they spy on you, blanket ban wide swaths of technology, and can kick down your door and drag you off in the middle of the night..

      in the mean time.. this is AMERICA.. learn to spell it.. learn to read the constitution.

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    7. Re:Propaganda and You by General+Fault · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I dont care about you either. Try and think outside your simple boring "I don't do anything that everybody else doesn't do life". I really care about myself. I also care about other decent people that do "abnormal" but perfectly legal things.
      For example; in the last month, while researching stuff for a current (harmless) project, doing my day job, and doing some political reading, I have visited sites containing information about:
      The Koran (wanted to read it for myself),
      Turbine engines,
      GPS systems,
      video and data transmission over RF,
      Automated navigation systems,
      US and other countries electrical generation and distribution,
      Millitary tech manuals for various bits of old equipment and aircraft,
      Ideal Gas laws (heat and expansion, often usefull info for bombs),
      energy densities of batteries, fuels, hydrogen, etc.,
      Bush,
      Rove,
      Right wing philosophy,
      Left wing philosophy,
      North Korea,
      Iran,
      9/11 consperacy theories,
      slashdot,
      and a whole bunch of other "abnormal" stuff.

      Now I am certainly no terrorist (just a hobbiest), but do I watch what I say on the phone these days? Of course I do. I already have enough flagged searches out there to probably qualify me for my very own NSA agent. If I have to watch what I say on the phone, or even if I feel like I should watch what I say on the phone even though I talking about perfectly legal things, I would call that a BAD thing.
      And what exactly do I do if some ass at the NSA decides that Ive searched for or purchased the wrong legal things and I silently get swept off to Guitanimo? Without a trial and some oversight, how do I prove that I did nothing wrong? Who is there to look over the shoulder of the NSA and verify that I am or am not a threat?

      --
      No man is an island... But I wouldn't mind having a bigger moat.
    8. Re:Propaganda and You by 0x0000 · · Score: 1
      you rush to them with handfuls of your personal data

      Well, you're making two assumptions there - a) that [we] rush to gmail (there are some folk don't use it, you know - quite a lot of them, I hear - even some /. subscribers), b) that all gmail subscribers provide actual data - disinformation is a two-way street, my friend - remember I told you that when you find out that Google is an CIA front company...

      you defend the collection of relatively meaningless data points that you call a life like a snarling wolverine?

      [nice image, btw -the snarlin wolverine]. Well, if the data is so trivial and meaningless, then I guess they won't need it after all, will they, so they won't whine and bitch when they are prohibited from collecting it, right?

      The government isn't sending me spam, let them mine whatever they want.

      Two points here 1) your two points are unrelated, so this a spuriously adjuncted statement - probably intended to distract from the lack of actual information or accuracy in your post, but let's not jump to conclusions... Second, Agents of the Bush Regime are in fact spamming - it's the CYA strategy they've adopted to excuse domestic snooping - check the sources on your SPAM (you do get SPAM, right?) - it's all from overseas. The Agents of the Bush Regime (aka Al Qaeda, et al) are spamming US email addresses from overseas in order that when Emporer Dubya sez "We're only reading the email of people who have receieved communications from Al Qaeda," the statement will not be as completely false as most people assume - most people get spam, most spam comes from agents of the regime, most spam originates outside the US (in countries simpy rife with "terrorists" [not]), hence the Dubya Regime really is monitoring everyone, but they still really are only monitoring comms w/ "Al Qaeda" ... Q.E.D.

      Think they wouldn't?

      --
      "The Internet is made of cats."
    9. Re:Propaganda and You by 0x0000 · · Score: 1
      you mean the right to simple privacy also applies to people who could fly off the handle and kill someone? oh perish the thought!

      Well yeah - I mean, if there were no right to privacy, the fact that George Dubya Bush is a deserter in wartime from the US armed forces, and that Dick Cheney has been dead since before the 2000 elections would be common knowledge. Wouldn't we feel salty, then...

      You can speed, as long as you're not slung out low riding with 20" spinners
      i got pulled over in an unremarkable gold 4 door sedan..

      Hell, that's nothing! I got pulled over last night in an American-made SUV for no reason other than a tail-light had burnt out [note that under the state law I'm only requred to have one working taillight - all my signals worked - it was plainly "selective enforcement"]. Then the pigs wanted to make an issue of the young lady I had picked up ouside the convenience store - called her a "hooker" and lectured me for even giving her a ride. Since when is it a cleavble offense to pick up a strang woman on the side of the road? What's she gonna do, stab me? I was betting she wasn't carrying concealed weapons [if she was I'd have given 10 bux just to know how she concealed them in that outfit] - and I'll take that chance. As I'm entitled to. They made her leave my car, and didn't even bother to make sure she got home safely - and it was the fukkin middle of the night! WfF is wrong w/ these assholes?

      Told me not to "ride around" in "their best neighborhood" - that's a quote from an [one of the 6] officer partticipating in these completely un-American harassment activities.

      Of course, by my lights' I was in a deal more danger from these armed hooligans in blue suits than I was from the an exhausted whore who just wanted a cigarette and a chance to sit down for a minute... go figure. I have to admit, their enclosure and capture pattern was quite professionally exeuted, but - well, that just made it even scarier. This is not the America I was born and raised to respect and venerate, I'm telling you.

      this is AMERICA.. learn to spell it.. learn to read the constitution.

      Nicely put, thanks.

      --
      "The Internet is made of cats."
  22. So what? by Durumbrain · · Score: 1

    What's the big deal? I've got nothing to hide...

  23. Cash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Pay with cash. It hasn't been outlawed yet.

    1. Re:Cash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet.

      But it will be....

    2. Re:Cash by 0x0000 · · Score: 1
      Pay with cash. It hasn't been outlawed yet.

      Not entirely - not in small amounts. Fact is that any amount of cash worth talking about is - like weed, and drugs, and guns, and an ice cream cone in your back pocket on Sunday - a crime to possess lacking some especial dispensation from the poticians and law enforcement [that is: The Corporations] - which dispensation means that your privacy has been violated de facto. Selective enforcement is the game here...

      Cash has traditionally been anonymous, and anonymity makes liars afraid, so the Feds are afraid of anonymity and hence of private ownership of cash.

      "When cash is outlawed, only outlaws will have cash."
      --
      "The Internet is made of cats."
    3. Re:Cash by Net_fiend · · Score: 1

      That is exactly what I was thinking. I was like "hell, its time to pay for everything with cash now." Save the more important items (ie. car, house, apt, etc) for credit.

      As far as online info goes..time to use John Doe for everything (except when the situation requires real info for fear of a fraud investigation). Sort of stinks because I liked the deals I had online. Guess its back to brick and mortar.

      Also...if my data is stolen/lost who can I sue? Did they ever find all those losts federal HDs? Yeah didn't think so.

      --
      "When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty."
  24. the realID act and kroger plus cards.. by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

    This is the reason why i'm against the realID act and dont use kroger plus cards.

    it's all fine and good for companies to use data for better inventory management, there is no reason however to tie it to my name.

    as for the realid act, I have absolutely no problem with a machine readable ID.. what I DO have a problem with is the fact that there are no regulations in place banning private institutions from making databases on when where and why my "realID" was swiped...

    the government is accountable to the public, corporations are not, and for all you people out there saying "but corporations are private entities theyre entitled to freedom from regulation!11oneone~!".. read and learn .

    corporations now have powers and infrastructure similar to government, and the government can work with them to make end runs around the constitution.

    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    1. Re:the realID act and kroger plus cards.. by dargon · · Score: 0

      heh, I use a kroger plus card (as well as albertsons and tom thumb) but those forms you fill out to get them allow you to leave everything blank so you can have the card anonymously.

  25. What do you do about it? I'm really curious.. by gd23ka · · Score: 1

    Honestly, I'm seriously interested in this and I want to hear from you guys what (if anything) you do to evade that kind of surveillance... Personally I used to work for a European card processing company, i.e. the people who operate the terminal network and supply the hardware and then route the terminal traffic to all the major creditcard acquirers and of course the national debit card scheme as well as operate nationwide loyalty card schemes. I know exactly what kind of data goes over those wires and ever since I have never touched a loyalty card again nor used any plastic when I could be using cash. OVER HERE IN EUROPE with a loyalty card the merchant gets a list of whatever you purchased and an identity to mach it up with. Whenever you swipe your card, the network company, the credit card company and/or your bank know where you shopped (account-details / PAN, terminal-id(location), time of day, amount, in fact with the terminal-id we can tell in which checkout lane you were and get the right surveillance tape). And whereas it is forbidden in Europe to match up card number / PAN (Personal Account Number) details (but which I'm sure the big guys do anyway) I doubt that is much of a problem in the US. Personally I have pulled out of that system as much as I could. I refuse to use loyalty cards and I pay in cash whatever I can and when I have to give my name and address to anyone I have a phoney address to give out to them. At least over here they don't want to see your ID just because they're trying to wheedle marketing data out of people. What are you up against? What do you do about it?

    1. Re:What do you do about it? I'm really curious.. by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      Personally I have pulled out of that system as much as I could. I refuse to use loyalty cards and I pay in cash whatever I can and when I have to give my name and address to anyone I have a phoney address to give out to them. At least over here they don't want to see your ID just because they're trying to wheedle marketing data out of people. What are you up against? What do you do about it?

      We who value our privacy do the same thing, but the realID act has already been passed...

      this act requires id's be machine readable and prohibits companies access to government databases for anything other than verificaiton that the ID is real, but the rub is this does NOT prohibit companies from keeping databases themselves in parallel with any and all info they choose.

      While ID is only required for very few purchases (alcohol, cigarettes), many chains promoting good christian values like wal-mart will refuse to sell you many over the counter drugs, video games, or DVD's without checking ID.

      While avoidable now with your methods, which are quite sane, it will not be so easily avoidable in the future without very necessary regulations put in place to stop such abuse.

      I did have hope for the '06 elections giving the democrats the chance to push for these regulations and oversight initiatives, but I've heard recently that idiot californians elected yet another republican to replace an existing republican who was acutally CONVICTED for corruption.. (it's all be it impossible to find justification to even investigate let alone convict someone for corruption here.. after all the people being corrupted are the ones making the laws). This does not leave me with much hope for recovery of a representative government any time soon.

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
    2. Re:What do you do about it? I'm really curious.. by 0x0000 · · Score: 1
      Honestly, I'm seriously interested in this and I want to hear from you guys what (if anything) you do to evade that kind of surveillance...

      Hah! I'll just bet you do ... you freaking narc you. Everyone knows the Euro-people don't have to put up with this kind of shit - they have privacy laws over there...

      --
      "The Internet is made of cats."
  26. Then why are we still doing out own taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the govt can mine our purchases, and they have our payroll information already, then why don't they just do our taxes for us? Seriously, this would save me alot of lyin..I mean..alot of work!

  27. Why shopping patterns need to be private: by Peter+Trepan · · Score: 3, Funny
    THANK YOU FOR SHOPPING WAL-MART

    GRO LITE x 12............$34.68
    MAX STR ROBITUSSIN x 4...$14.23
    ASS-TRO GLIDE.............$7.98
    PETS/HMSTR............... $2.98
    MUSIC/B.STREISAND........$16.98

    TOTAL: $76.85

    IN ACCORDANCE WITH NEW HOMELAND
    SECURITY DIRECTIVES, THIS INFORMATION
    IS BEING FORWARDED TO THE NSA, WHO
    WILL THEN FORWARD RELEVANT INFORMATION
    TO LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS.

    HAVE A NICE DAY!
    --

    Step into a huge movement. Don't Tread In Me.

    1. Re:Why shopping patterns need to be private: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's the Streisand that'll see you locked away for life.

    2. Re:Why shopping patterns need to be private: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, I'm impressed. How the hell did you get that past the lameness filter?
      The obvious ways are filtered in the wake of OOG_THE_CAVEMAN trolls etc.

  28. On the plus side... by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 3, Informative

    Unlike things like the "do not fly" list(s) where you aren't (officially) allowed to know if your name is on the list or not -- at least if the information is commercially available you can buy it yourself and find out what big brother knows (and presumably doesn't know) about you.

    You can also use that info to judge the effectiveness of whatever disinformation you use to protect yourself. For example, a good friend of mine had a fake id made up with her real name. But it had a bogus age (younger than her real age, she is a woman after all), bogus address and bogus SS# (or maybe DL# I forget). She was tired of all the clubs that swipe the magstripe to "check id" when in fact they are "swiping" your personal information.

    This use had the unexpected side-effect of creating a completely bogus "identical twin" in a surprisingly large number of these commercial databases with the same name and same town, but otherwise completely different info. In some databases like the address lookups on yahoo and other places, her "twin" is the only entry - her real info isn't there. At the very least, this twin should confuse any stalkers (she's had a few before this development).

    1. Re:On the plus side... by roscivs · · Score: 1

      How long until this sort of practice is made illegal? :'(

      --
      ~ roscivs
    2. Re:On the plus side... by pembo13 · · Score: 1

      So you're suggesting that individuals buy information about themselves to protect themselves from their government?

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
  29. Democracy... by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes but we expect companies to be greedy and to try to get away with as much as they can. On the other hand the government is supposed to represent the people and respect our rights. A company is created by a few people for their benefit, but the government is created by all the people, and it should be run to the benefit of everyone, not just the power-hungry and the wealthy.

    <rant>
    Theoretically, in a democracy, the government is elected by the people. Unfortunately the selection of candidates available to be elected is usually controlled by a smal clique of wealthy people since it has become so expensive to run for office that no normal person can afford it without sellign his/her soul to these special interest groups. So in effect it is they who are create the government, not the people. Sometimes I get the feeling that the only thing that keeps democracy from being a totally unworkable system of government is the fact that the pack of weasels that make up the government are usually to busy the stabbing each other in the back to concentrate fully on their great design which seems to be to bring about the total collapse of human civilization as we know it. That and the fact that once in a while.... uhmmm.... make that once in a loooooooong while the people grow a spine, get off their ass and remind their 'elected representitives' that governments should never forget to fear their electorate.
    </rant>

    --
    Only to idiots, are orders laws.
    -- Henning von Tresckow
    1. Re:Democracy... by Umbral+Blot · · Score: 1

      I agree with you, no need to convince me.

    2. Re:Democracy... by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      Umm what democratic society are you speaking of? I dont think there is a single on on earth currently.

      ANd no, the USA is NOT one, never has been. Its been a republic since day one. ( somewhat perversed by greed, but still the same basic structure as its always been )

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  30. Admiral Poindexter seems to have gotten his way by golodh · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Remember that admiral Poindexter with his Total Information Awareness (TIA) programme? It looks as if his ideas have been implemented from the first to the last. Links: http://www.p2pnet.net/issue03/page1.html and http://www.p2pnet.net/issue05/page1.html

  31. If only they would investigate their own spending by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Funny how when someone wants the government to investigate it's own spending reports are spun around showing it would cost billions to investigate such activities, yet investigating Americans seems to be no problem.

    Hypocracy at it's finest.

  32. Want to Anonymize? Disappear? Try this... by i_want_you_to_throw_ · · Score: 3, Funny

    I use the "Fletch" method to disguise my consumer loyalty cards. I have been thanked as "Mr. Nugent", "Mr. Truman" and "Mr. Cocktosen".

    Otherwise try these tips...
    Going

    Diss credit: Want to be hard to find? Start by dashing off stern opt-out letters to the big database companies and credit bureaus - Experian, TransUnion, Equifax. These folks may make a mint peddling personal info, but they can be cajoled into stopping. First, though, they'll make you jump through hoops - like filling out a 1040-sized form or idling in toll-free hell. Junkbusters has a good list of opt-out addresses.

    Anonymize: Ditch your ISP and sign up with a service that lets you surf by proxy, keeping your IP address concealed. Send email via an anonymous remailer like Mixmaster, a digital middleman that scrambles timestamps and message sizes. And if you're going to be advocating the violent overthrow of the government or bragging about your cool new bong, make sure your remailer routes messages through multiple machines.

    Grok the fine print: Boring as it sounds, read the privacy statements that clutter your mailbox around tax time and sever ties with companies that admit, "Our privacy policy may change over time" - industry lingo for "We reserve the right to screw you."

    Going Further

    Ditch the digits:Want to drop out?Start by rustling up a new Social Security number.

    The Social Security Administration doesn't accept paranoia as a criterion for granting a new card, but it recognizes cultural objections and religious pleas. One stratagem: Contend that your credit has been irrevocably damaged by a number-related snafu, or that you live in fear of a stalker who knows your digits. Once you switch your SSN, never use it. Instead, dole out 078-05-1120, an Eisenhower-era card that works 99 percent of the time.

    Call cell-free: Use the humble pay phone. Mobile phones are being outfitted with global positioning satellite chips to comply with an FCC mandate. By 2006, all wireless networks must feature 911-friendly tracking technology. Marketers are cooking up ways to capitalize, like zapping burger coupons to your Nokia as you stroll by a fast-food joint.

    Pay full price: You may relish saving 10 percent on Prell, but deep-six your buyers' club cards. Supermarkets and pharmacies haven't yet perfected the art of data mining, but it won't be long. "If you're having a child custody fight, they could subpoena your frequent-shopper cards and say, 'Look, he's buying too many potato chips, he's hurting the kids,'" says Robert Gellman, a Washington-based privacy consultant.

    Gone

    Move: Want to go completely off the grid? Start by moving - address changes bedevil databasers. But don't buy a home. All those loan apps will blow your cover. Residential hotels smell like cheap cigars and urine, but at least you can register under a pseudonym. Give a fake address: 3500 S. Wacker, Chicago, IL, 60616 - the front door for Comiskey Park.

    Toss your cards:Pay cash for everything, and don't plan on a life of luxury. Any (legal) cash transaction more than $10,000 triggers government reporting regulations, which means you can forget about that Cadillac Escalade you've had your eye on. Settle for the subway or bus, using coins rather than prepaid fare cards, which keep a record of trips.

    Go incognito: Facial-recognition gear will soon be ubiquitous in public spaces. To fool the systems, invest in a pair of bulky aviator sunglasses and a hat. If you fear being tailed, alter your gait every time you hit the street - a pigeon-toed shuffle one day, a bowlegged amble the next. There are also Central American plastic surgery mills, beloved of drug lords, that can alter the loops and whorls on your fingertips. It'll set you back 10 Gs, but then, Costa Rican doctors have been known to accept gold Rolexes in lieu of cash.

    1. Re:Want to Anonymize? Disappear? Try this... by BobSutan · · Score: 1

      Awesome info, not just for the paranoid but anyone wanting to protect themselves from Identity Theft too!

      --
      "On a scale from 1 to 10, people are stupid"
    2. Re:Want to Anonymize? Disappear? Try this... by 0x0000 · · Score: 1
      Any (legal) cash transaction more than $10,000 triggers government reporting regulations

      That information is out of date - it has been $3k for some years now - that action was taken as part of the so-called "war on drugs" - I am not completely certain it was not lowered again from $3k [according to the Moneygram website referenced below, it has been lowered to $2k under the so-called USA PATRIOT Act].

      If you don't believe it (can't imagine why, but .... ;)), the proof is simple - go to Walmart [Moneygram] or Western Union and try to send $5000 in cash to your friend in another state - if you want to make it really interesting, try to do it using the "no ID required for pickup" option.

      It's interesting, sometimes, the kinds of fantasitic beliefs some of the people who expect you to trust them with your money seem to hold...

      In any case, transacting even in cash leaves a lot more traces these days than it did when the blurb you posted was written... Ever read " Steal This Book "? [i don't know if it is still available uneditted, but it was - at least at one time - a really great read...

      From the MoneyGram website:

      You must file this SAR-MSB report whenever one or more transactions that add up to $2,000 or more are conducted or attempted at your location involving one of our products and you know or suspect that the transaction: [...] or [...] has no business or apparent lawful purpose and you know of no reasonable explanation for the transaction.

      Now, in the real world - the world we lived in up until recently - You're not supposed to have to tell a desk clerk at Walmart why you're sending your associate in California $5k in cash.

      Note that MoneyGram - while cheaper than WU - does not do anonymous transfers at all. For that matter, I don't know for sure that WU still allows anonymous money transfer like they did in the days I didn't carry ID and my mom had to send me gas money from out of state - can't get to their Javascript-only website just now]. But the fact remains: I can't think of any good reason I should be required to explain my business to a telex clerk, for any reason, ever - I'm paying for a service, not begging a favour.

      More from the same page:

      the Currency Transaction Report (CTR) and the recordkeeping and identification requirements that apply to cash purchases of money orders of $3,000 to $10,000, and the recordkeeping requirements that apply to any money transfer of $3,000 or more.
      --
      "The Internet is made of cats."
    3. Re:Want to Anonymize? Disappear? Try this... by TRS80NT · · Score: 1

      "...Steal This Book..."
      Not only available, but free online. Making it hard to steal, but still... ;)
      I read it in the day and parts haven't aged real well. Still lots of good stuff though>


      --
      Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet.
    4. Re:Want to Anonymize? Disappear? Try this... by 0x0000 · · Score: 1

      Hell yeah - thanks man - a refresher will really help out now that the credit cards are maxed out ...

      --
      "The Internet is made of cats."
  33. You know you'll come out clean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But really, how do you know you'll come out clean?

    What if your identity was stolen and someone had done something suspicious in your name and it got entered into a commercial database, and the government decided you had an unhealthy interest in certain things and decided to put you under 24-hour surveillance?

    Hell, what if the database is just plain wrong? It happens all the time, you know. Can you really have a database with entries about millions of people without hundreds, thousands or more of those entries containing fucking bogus information? Have you ever checked your credit report? You might be surprised at the kind of stuff that's on it.

    Just because you have nothing to hide, does NOT mean the gov't should be allowed to snoop and spy on you and collect and aggregate data about you.

    Final question. Have you ever seen the movie "Enemy of the State"? Some of the stuff in it is farfetched, but information is power, and doesn't it worry you in the slightest to give your gov't (which is made up of fallible, and often corruptible, human beings) so much power over your life?

  34. What do you expect? by DesertWolf0132 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A government of the people, by the people, for the people? What kind of whacked out pinko commie rhetoric is that? For the people...puleeeze... Next what will you want? Votes that actually count? How about free karma points while you are at it? I guess you will want a government that sticks to that liberal manifesto...what do you call it...The Bill of Rights next? Don't you know that thing is also called the Presidential toilet paper?

    This is the NSA and we approve this post.

    --
    No animals were harmed in the making of this sig.
    Well, there was that one puppy, but he is all better now.
  35. Boy that sure took the wind out of our sails by spun · · Score: 1

    Here I was all set to put on my tinfoil hat and rant about Bush and you came along and ruined it by predicting what I would do in advance. That's pretty clever, did you think up that tactic all by yourself? You see what he did everybody? He claimed we would all rant about Bush, and implied that anyone who does is akin to someone with a mental illness who wears tinfoil on his head to keep out the evil mind rays. That is so clever, that is just so, so fresh, how did you come up with that? Wow, just... wow. I bow down before your superior debating skills.

    You, sir, are a master debater.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  36. Private compared to government by wytcld · · Score: 1

    Private firms, if the system is kept competitive, will not share their data with competitors, past a certain level of detail. If you have a history of not paying debts, they'll share that. But if you are a particularly good prospect, as compared to a bad one, they'll tend to hoard that information - selling it if they can to companies which don't compete with them, but never sharing it with their direct competitors. And those private firms have as their chief, often only, goal to sell you something. Now, it's true, if they sell you credit, to a small extent they own you - they own a slice of your future income.

    Governments, by contrast, don't have to sell you anything. They get to take the money through taxation regardless of whether you're inclined to buy the services they offer. So they already own a slice of your future income. When they mine data they're after something more than that. Their ultimate goal, insofar as possible, is to own you outright.

    It all comes down to who you're more threatened by, a salesman or a cop? The companies either rate you as worthy of a sales call, or not; the government rates you as worthy of a fine, imprisonment, or death, or not.

    --
    "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
  37. Re:Here we go again by DesertWolf0132 · · Score: 1

    Nope. Hitler could at least form a sentence without mis pronouncing things to the point where, in the words of Carlos Mencia, "Even [racial remark replaced with Mexican immigrants] were saying, 'Dat's not how you say dat.'"

    And to say Cheney is a mole is to imply he is trying to hide it.

    And Bush is too busy with Hooked on phonics to listen to phone sex. That is Rumsfeld's job.

    --
    No animals were harmed in the making of this sig.
    Well, there was that one puppy, but he is all better now.
  38. Re:What's the big deal? ---MOD PARENT UP-- by Dan+Ferguson · · Score: 1

    I don't have mod points.

  39. J. Edgar Hoover was far worse than Joseph McCarthy by vinn01 · · Score: 1

    Compare for yourself these two fine examples of the US government showing how much they can be trusted ...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy

  40. The solution? by clevershark · · Score: 1

    Buy less. Buy cash. Close your credit accounts.

    Actually that's pretty sane advice from a "ending up with more money and less crap you don't need" point of view as well...

    --

    My sig is too lon

    1. Re:The solution? by plasmacutter · · Score: 1

      buying less is bad for the economy.. and bad for businesses. if you buy less you will earn less.. the standard of living will go down.. and most important of all businesses lose their record profit margins.. so buy more! buy more before they make you buy more ; )

      --
      VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  41. force of nature/government by sciencecneisc · · Score: 1

    i've said this before: the government needs some data to be able to protect us from crimes. would you rather have it have more data or less; more protection or less? that's like saying would you rather have fewer cops. hey, i hate it. i really hate it. i want 100% encrypted SSH-tunneled locked signed privacy. but i can't have it. not yet. for now we are adjusting to this digital stuff. there's cyber-crimes galore and on top of that there's a lot of dangerous criminals adjusting, terrorists, to our favorite medium. once they move on we'll take back our privacy online and the cycle will continue. the government, as a system, as a living organization, is consuming the Internet as much as possible along with our personal information. that's how it's dealing with its fear of the internet. it's going to get as much as possible organized into it's proprietary, perhaps poorly guarded databases. for now we have to let the monster rampage our data until it's happy enough to do it more safely.

    1. Re:force of nature/government by b0nj0m0n · · Score: 1

      It's nice to hear a rational voice in the crowd. We live in a world where information is power, and I want the government to have the power to protect me. The minute I hear stories about the abuse of this power, I'll start to worry. There's no reason to be suspicious of the government at this point, they don't do a perfect job but they're not systematic oppressors as seems to be the common implication at /. They're people, and people are imperfect, but they're also the people spending their lives trying to avoid the douchebags of the world from taking advantage of those of us who just want to live in peace. Give em bigger guns. These same slippery slope arguments were used to hate on the Social Security Number.

    2. Re:force of nature/government by 0x0000 · · Score: 1
      there's cyber-crimes galore and on top of that there's a lot of dangerous criminals adjusting, terrorists, to our favorite medium

      Really? Where? I mean seriously, so you have cites for that? Most of the crime I hear about involves computers and networking only peripherally. Even the so-called "terrorists" don't seem to be particularly tech-savvy. Of course, I understand that an oppressive regime can use the "threat" of terroism to "scare" the citizenry into giving up basic rights, but that is not technically a part of what the majority of hte people involved (the population of the planet, for instance) have consensually agreed is that thing we call Reality. It is, in fact, some of the only actual cybercrime of which I am aware, since the oppressive regimes are resorting now to cybercrime themselves to counter the (imagined) cybercrime with which they would "scare" us. Furthermore, I hear a lot more about governments, powers, and principalities being involved in cybercrimes than I do any other group of people. Perhaps we should simply limit the access that those governments, powers, and prinicpalities have to data and the networks - I'm fairly sure that such action would limit the cybercrimes that e.g. the US Federal Government could engage in... but giving them more information about thei potential victims? No. That's a lot like offering powdered cocaine to a crack addict: a) they can't appreciate what they've gotten, and b) they will simply abuse it in the same way they did the rock. There is no benefit for the non-addict who is paying for it - the US population, in this case.

      --
      "The Internet is made of cats."
    3. Re:force of nature/government by 0x0000 · · Score: 1
      There's no reason to be suspicious of the government at this point, they don't do a perfect job but they're not systematic oppressors as seems to be the common implication at /.

      And where are you from? I got the impression from the opening that you might be an American, but clearly you haven't lived there in some time, at the least...

      --
      "The Internet is made of cats."
    4. Re:force of nature/government by pembo13 · · Score: 1

      Well, there would be less need to "protect the citizens" if people didn't hate you enough to kill themselves to hurt you. You don't see terrorist running of to Switzerland to blow them to kingdom-come do you now.

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    5. Re:force of nature/government by sciencecneisc · · Score: 1

      yes. i personally didn't invade Iraq or set foreign policy for years now or before I was born. even if we changed everything today and stayed neutral we'd still have powerful enemies left over that we can't just ignore.

    6. Re:force of nature/government by sciencecneisc · · Score: 1

      "The minute I hear stories about the abuse of this power, I'll start to worry." ---no, no we don't wait for corruption or abuse, we expect it and come up with contingency plans to contain the problems. These databases are powerful and can be abused even though most will not be. One leak is a huge violation of our privacy and financial safety. The risk of an accidental leak, IMO the more likely type, needs to be partially countered by stronger precautions and internal security measures. e.g. today, http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/15/024 5212 Poor security measures on government computers are just as bad as bad intentions.

    7. Re:force of nature/government by mpe · · Score: 1

      i've said this before: the government needs some data to be able to protect us from crimes. would you rather have it have more data or less; more protection or less?

      Government having more irrelevent data could equate to less protection.

      that's like saying would you rather have fewer cops.

      It depends what those cops are actually doing. X cops on the street may be a lot more effective at dealing with and detering crime than Y cops sitting on their backsides looking at computer screens. Even if Y is greater than X.

    8. Re:force of nature/government by BandwidthHog · · Score: 1
      It's nice to hear a rational voice in the crowd.

      I think he was trolling. It’s not too often that someone says, with a straight face, that they’re sure those nice government folks will relinquish newly granted powers once some crisis or other passes. And if they do say that with a straight face, they probably toked their way through history class.

      --

      Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
  42. Dell already asked this question by dj245 · · Score: 1

    Dell asks you if you are a terrist. Better say no (the story)

    --
    Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
  43. Re:Not -so- sure about that by mpapet · · Score: 1

    I think payment authorization and consumption tracking are two different systems in most stores.
    If it is approved, send "approved". If fail, send "failure" with no other hook into the transaction.

    Payment programming in particular is pretty strict about that kind of thing because of the door you would open to every merchant with a terminal.

    Can someone enlighten us on the topic?

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
  44. Re:Want to Anonymize? Disappear? Plagiarize by Lactoso · · Score: 1
    In the not so distant future when the Guhvmint starts data mining slashdot, you might want to avoid plagiarism charges by providing proper attribution...

    Source article

  45. Arguing with the Dog by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Arguing with a leftist is like arguing with the dog. They don't listen and al they do is whine.

  46. Re:Not -so- sure about that by Ph33r+th3+g(O)at · · Score: 1

    I'm sure that's true in some cases, but I'm sure that newer POS terminals at least eat and log the name from the mag stripe. And I doubt any retailer is going to pass up the $$$ from selling the stripe data for very long whether their merchant agreements allow it or not.

    --
    I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
  47. This is a loophole for call records by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    The phone companies have to collect enough information to allow traffic analysis, just so they can send out bills.

    It's illegal for them to hand that information over to the government. Even Republican Arlen Specter said "There is no doubt that the NSA program violates the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act"

    There is no such law to forbid phone companies from selling call records to private consumer research firms. As far as I know, there's no law forbidding the NSA from being yet another customer of the consumer research firms. Presto, "information laundering".

    If the NSA stops grabbing call records, with a great show of reluctance and a few smear tactics against their critics, the next thing to check is whether they're still getting the exact same information.

    1. Re:This is a loophole for call records by Ph33r+th3+g(O)at · · Score: 1
      As far as I know, there's no law forbidding the NSA from being yet another customer of the consumer research firms. Presto, "information laundering".

      Ding, ding, ding--we have a winner. The Privacy Act of 1974, FISA, et al mean bupkes if the .gov can trawl the oceans of commercial databases that are conveniently allowed to exist.

      --
      I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
    2. Re:This is a loophole for call records by 0x0000 · · Score: 1
      the next thing to check is whether they're still getting the exact same information

      .... you meant "where" didn't you? Instead of "whether"?

      Does anyone know if the NSA is operating shell corps (similar to the way the CIA operates) ?

      --
      "The Internet is made of cats."
  48. Re:Not -so- sure about that by Clod9 · · Score: 1

    I don't have any inside information, but it's obvious to me that if you give information, they will take it and use it. The only way to avoid that is not to give it. By using your credit card with a loyalty card, even once, you are making it possible for them to associate the two.
    If they aren't doing it already, they will be as soon as someone figures out it's possible. It's all one system in that the same machine reads both cards, so if they're separating the data, it's because they decided to do so.

  49. payback by jafac · · Score: 1

    Net Neutrality is the trade for the telecoms handing over our call registers.

    The Bankruptcy Bill was the trade for the Credit Card companies handing over our spending records. (I'm sure that there are certain high-end clients that are exempt, of course).

    --

    These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
  50. In Texas... by MoriarGryphon · · Score: 1

    521.126. ELECTRONICALLY READABLE INFORMATION. (a) The
    department may not include any information on a driver's license,
    commercial driver's license, or personal identification
    certificate in an electronically readable form other than the
    information printed on the license and a physical description of
    the licensee.
            (b) Except as provided by Subsections (d), (e), and (g), a
    person commits an offense if the person:
                    (1) accesses or uses electronically readable
    information derived from a driver's license, commercial driver's
    license, or personal identification certificate; or
                    (2) compiles or maintains a database of electronically
    readable information derived from driver's licenses, commercial
    driver's licenses, or personal identification certificates.
            (c) An offense under Subsection (b) is a Class A
    misdemeanor.

    The exemption (d) is for databases used for government purposes, exemption (e) is for financial instituions for identification and can't be stored without written permission, and exemption (g) is for people in charge of maritime ports.

    Don't know what state you live in, but you may want to check for a similar laws.

  51. Shopper preferences by xixax · · Score: 1

    You are buying:
        Chemicals:Semtex
        Clothing:Balaclava

    Other customers who have bought these items also bought
      detonators
      AK-47
      hand grenades
      bulk ammounium nitrate fertiliser
      anthrax
      sarin gas
      religious items:

    --
    "Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
  52. False declaration by xixax · · Score: 1

    It's like the entry paperwork for the USA where they ask if you are visiting to assasinate the president. The goal is to help establish that you are a lying, conniving individual if for some reason you end up in court on such charges.

    Xix.

    --
    "Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
  53. TIA by bob291 · · Score: 1

    This practice is what we tried to prevent by not allowing the TIA project Poindexter proposed. How many people have 'affinity' cards for shopping? The prevalence of those has slowly eroded peoples expectations for privacy. Now the government can use taxpayer money to contract out the correlation of that information with whatever it already has obtained (illegally?). Will this include license plate scans at bridges, toll booths, and random highway camera systems? We should be fighting for data retention laws that prohibit the databasing of private consumer information beyond the purpose it was initially collected for.

  54. Play with the data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sign up for all these lovely loyalty cards and then swap them with your friends, set up a web site to do the same. If enough people do it, well, I'm sure you can see where this is going.

  55. Nothing to do with terrorists by Aceticon · · Score: 1

    Unless terrorists are so stupid they use their discount card when buying nitrate fertilizer or pay it their credit card or can't resist having a frequent flyer card for the frequent flyer miles of all those plane trips to training camps in the Middle East and Africa ...

    This is aimed at other purposes such as:
    - Profiling by seing what kind of books, music, magazines, newspapers and other such thing people buy.
    - Detecting criminals and people that try to escape taxes by estimating how much they are spending monthly and checking if it is more than the declared monthly income.
    - Figuring out patterns of movement in the population by massive tracking of the places where people buy things.
    - etc

    1. Re:Nothing to do with terrorists by Toba82 · · Score: 1

      So people who are going into debt are 'bad guys'? I guess that means most of America. Oh wait, that's what they're going for. You're right of course - none of these laws are aimed at stopping terrorism. All they want is more control and power - and they get it, because people for the most part believe what they are told.

      Also, never forget: good old cash is amazingly good at anonymizing you when you buy things in meatspace. I never buy something with a credit card or debit card if I have enough cash on me - and I almost always do. Unfortunately wearing a balaclava for the full anonymous effect is frowned upon in places of business :p

      --
      I pretend to know more than I really do by mooching off google and wikipedia.
  56. An alternative approach by rumith · · Score: 1

    Since the very dawn of life on Earth might has meant right - it's a law of nature, and there's little to be done about it. Since the very dawn of the human history there have been tribes, and the guy with the largest club or the sharpest spear has been the chieftain (that said, you cannot kill a hamster and eat it alone; you have to share with him. And you cannot have a woman he wants - his club is heavier) - right until someone else figured out how to build a shortbow. After that, most tribes rapidly changed their priorities. Those who didn't were eaten by those who did. One more note: someone was smart enough to claim the position of shaman, but that's a little different story - suffice to say that in most modern countries 'shamans' and 'chieftains' are allies, and there are cases when the shaman and the chieftain are the same person.
    Fast forward. Human population, despite constant wars of chieftains, each trying to capture as much land (=food and resources) as possible, is growing exponentially; technology is also constantly improving (there was an especially smart guy among the Dorians who somehow learned how to work with steel, downed the chieftain, and wiped out other chieftains along with their tribes because they all had bronze armor and weapons), ways of controlling masses of people are constantly improving, too (the first thing most rebels usually try to do is ensure that no further rebellions are possible), as well as personal security of the monarchs (another guy overthrew a local king by paying all of his gold to a large army of mercenaries, and after he took the throne, he made sure that none of his vassals had enough gold to pay for another army and do the same to him - that is, emptied their coffers in favour of his own treasury). And what about the people - well, they know only hard work so they can hope to live a little longer, constant pillages by their neighbour countries (many of them were becoming captive slaves and starting enjoying their lives even less, if it only could be possible), military drafts and overall a pretty inhumane treating. Nobody cared about the little peasants, workers and the rest, since if you're the leader and you want to see the next day - you must be alarm and powerful at all costs. After all, what is your population for you? Guys that you have conquered. And what are the rest? Guys that have been, alas, conquered by someone else. You goal? Command what is yours, conquer what is not (C). No need to care about the people, because they don't really have a choice (to be robbed by one lord or another - who cares?), and because they constantly breed.
    Fast forward. 21st century. The smartest chieftain around (it doesn't matter if it is one person or a small group) has figured out that the best way to achieve the above-mentioned goal is:
    a) Level 0. Pretend that you're not around - tell everyone that they're free, and allow them enjoy their lives enough to believe it.
    b) Level 1. For those who didn't believe in Level 0: put a puppet on the throne to get arrows in the chest and anything worse for you.
    c) Level 2. Hide yourself so even those weren't affected by Level 1 cannot easily find you among other seemingly powerful chieftains
    d) Level 3. Continue kicking out rivals - the strongest one first, by telling his people that your people are rich (which is mostly true) and free (which is not), and that they can have the same if they join you (which is not true again). They believe you - and voila, you're the world's major superpower.
    e) Level 4. Continue kicking out rivals - the richest in resources ones first, so you can keep your population relatively happy while you're building a force to wipe out everyone else and a security system to have maximum control over the said population. Meanwhile, frighten your population with stories about imaginary opponent who want to kill them, so they pay less attention to your wars against real opponents who bug you.
    And surely soon there will be
    f) Level 5. After you're done with opponents, determine the size of popu

  57. Boy, you're naive... by cr0sh · · Score: 1
    i've said this before: the government needs some data to be able to protect us from crimes.


    You really think that the government can somehow "protect" you, and you alone? I suppose that is why at the local government level we hear on the news every day "...police prevented this man from breaking into an apartment where he was going to brutally rape and kill this woman..."? Oh, that's right - we don't hear that, do we?

    Other than in the most rare of circumstances will we ever hear this, and it will be because of "some lucky break" - the cop sees the guy, the cop notices the drunk weaving a bit, the FBI agent somehow manages to put two and two together, the FEMA manager gets off his butt and actually does something in an emergency.

    If 9/11 didn't teach you anything, if hurricane Katrina didn't teach you anything, if the daily news hasn't taught you, then I am going to tell you right now:

    The government isn't there to protect you personnally - at best they may be able to protect the country itself from harm, and they don't even do a very good job at that (Pearl Harbor? 9/11? Katrina?). Their only function anymore seems to be "mopping up the mess left behind", and 90 percent of the time they can't even do that right without bickering, money grubbing, and ultimately forgetting what the problem originally was, leaving the mess for the citzens to deal with (look at downtown Detroit, among other blighted areas in the country, for examples of this).

    The only protection you have for you and your family is you and your family. Depending on your family (or lack of it), it may just be only YOU. Don't look for the government to be there for you when disaster strikes, when war comes to our shores, or when a bad guy is on your block. Half the time if you even manage to be able to call 911, you'll be maimed or dead by the time the cops get there.

    I suppose the one good thing that hurricane Katrina showed us is that the FEMA conspiracy (where FEMA had set up numerous fenced "prisons" around the country for dissidents or whatnot in a time of national emergency for "unruly citizens" to be placed and re-educated) is either false, or just wouldn't work because of ineptitude on the part of FEMA. When they can't even get some buses in place to move people with 24-48 hours warning, how would you expect them to be able to do a roundup of citizens who would be armed?

    Get out of your bubble - the government isn't going to do jack to "protect you" - not even if you are Bill Gates himself.

    --
    Reason is the Path to God - Anon
    1. Re:Boy, you're naive... by sciencecneisc · · Score: 1

      Thank you for the information about FEMA and their naive idea. If somebody is a libertarian they still think the government can protect them from violent crime and invaders (but not necessarily natural disasters). I guess that's naive too considering how inefficient it would still be even if they stopped focusing on drugs and copyright scandals... Then only anarcho-capatalism combined with being armed and trained in self-defense could help you in that you could always protect yourself if you're skilled and private companies could compete to offer protection and perhaps prevention, perhaps. Based on what you're saying prevention still sounds unlikely even with optimism about such a free market security system.