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Open Source About the People

An anonymous reader writes "InfoWorld has a nice look at what defines an open source venture. It seems that the main area of interest, and difficulty, rests with the personnel surrounding the project. From the article: 'But the muddier waters are around the personalities and commitment of the engineers who created the code. How long do they intend to stay? What is their level of commitment? These are fuzzy types of questions - but we know from history that when the core team of engineers that best understands the code up and walks out ... it tends to send a company into a death spiral.'"

29 of 91 comments (clear)

  1. The Missing Link by Baricom · · Score: 5, Informative

    The anonymous submitter was apparently too cowardly to submit a link to the article. I think that's the one he wanted.

    1. Re:The Missing Link by Tim+C · · Score: 4, Funny

      How was this even posted without a link? I know it's a running joke here that noone reads the articles before commenting, but at least give people a chance!

      I appreciate that the editors don't (edit, that is), but really...

  2. Great article! by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 5, Funny

    The link that post contained pointed to what may well be the most informative, insightful, and entertaining read I've had all year.

    1. Re:Great article! by ozmanjusri · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Great article!

      You're kidding, right? All it says is that if key developers leave a project, the project will struggle. Duh, and obviously that's not unique to open source software, it's true of closed source projects too.

      What's not said in the article is that if the core engineers leave a closed source project, the project and the company may fail and leave the customers stranded. If the core people of an open source team leave, they are free to take the code with them and fork the project, so the customers have continuity (Xfree, Mamba etc are examples)

      From a company's point of view, that's scary - if you upset your developers, you stand to lose your entire product, as well as the people who built it. For the customers and developers though, it's all good. The company has to keep the developers happy so they'll stay, and the customers know their software will outlast the company.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    2. Re:Great article! by Eideewt · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, he's kidding. There was no link in the post.

    3. Re:Great article! by penix1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "what about semi-open and semi-closed products/projects?"

      They are doomed from the start...

      It is like being a little bit pregnant...

      B.

      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
  3. So, really... by NoMaster · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So the real gist of the article is "Open Source is interesting - but watch out for the IP issues, and if the original developers leave, you're hosed."

    Hardly a glowing recommendation, is it? It shares more in common with the SCO FUD further down the front page than you may realise...

    --
    What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
    1. Re:So, really... by Baricom · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't read this as saying that the ownership of IP is something to worry about. I think the writer's point is that the most important IP is not what SCO and the MAFIAA are suing people about...it's the creators of that IP. This is especially the case with code, since it needs to be maintained for longer periods of time than other kinds of IP. When you have software that is the lifeblood of your company, and the team that wrote it retires or gets hit by a bus, you have big problems.

  4. Replaceable by Umbral+Blot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    After finding the article and reading it this is what it really seems to say: open source is great, since so many more people understand your code you are that much cheaper to fire after you have done the creative work and replace with someone cheaper. I love open source, but if companies are really thinking like this it would be a good reason to make your projects closed source, as sad as that sounds.

  5. Superstars vs. Interchangable Parts by buckhead_buddy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Proprietary software development companies have found that promoting (or even acknowledging) developers causes a problem where the developers can be hired away. When the most knowlegeable developers disappear, there's a huge learning curve even for the "second tier" that must come to fill the void. It's a well-known risk for proprietary companies to have these "assets" so exposed and open to theft by other HR departments. Even if they aren't hired away, superstar developers mean that they can leverage huge salaries. Proprietary software companies have found that keeping their development staffs unacknowledged and easily replaceable means they keep costs down. They've developed a way to keep the developer a cheap, replaceable asset.

    It seems that this article is trying to focus on how this applies to open source software development companies. It's not open source development in general, but companies which profit from open-source as an integral part of their business (admin services, proprietary add-ons, special distributions, etc). Even if the source for a critical part is open, the company will only have a handful of developers who understand the code inside and out on staff. This is a potential liability.

    Accountants and capitalists don't want to consider developers as "artists" or "superstars", they'd much rather consider them as sheep to be sheperded. Simple, replaceable, interchangable. The article tries to make the point "Don't assume open source means your paid development staff will become a constantly refillable, always-replaceable, cheap resource." It doesn't change the problems of hiring developers that you had when you considered proprietary software funding.

    1. Re:Superstars vs. Interchangable Parts by Tim+C · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Perhaps I'm cynical, but it's my experience that companies don't want to think of any of their employees as anythng but resources. That makes dealing with them so much easier - if you think of them as people, you might actually feel a little empathy or even guilt when you make them redundant just to make a small cost saving, or refuse bonuses and pay rises while the senior management award themselves both.

      I don't think it's any kind of coincidence that "Personnel" departments all got renamed to "Human Resources".

    2. Re:Superstars vs. Interchangable Parts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think both you and grandparent are mostly right. But I think he is mistaken when he says
      "They've developed a way to keep the developer a cheap, replaceable asset."
      A company may be able to keep the wages down by simply refusing to acknowledge good developers, and get away with this for a while. But when the frustrated developers eventually leave anyway, management will notice that the "replaceable" is not always so easy.

      Posting anonymously today because the topic might become hot at my current place of work - I'm thinking of putting out my own resume if things don't change soon.

  6. The relevance of this article.... by pieterh · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Of course the people are key to any business, not just software, and not just open source. A large part of building a sustainable business is to solve this problem and build structures that survive change. Sustainable software is built in layers so that no single team determines the life of the whole. Individual projects will die if their key developers leave but the whole can keep running.

    The article seems mainly aimed at VCs involved in the new boom in Silicon Valley - open source - and is warning them, "buy the developers, not the software".

    Good advice but hardly profound.

    1. Re:The relevance of this article.... by asuffield · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A large part of building a sustainable business is to solve this problem and build structures that survive change. Sustainable software is built in layers so that no single team determines the life of the whole.

      Of course, a lot of people get this wrong. They manage to build a structure that survives change, but does so because it isn't dependant on the skills of the individuals at all. That sounds good, but it really means that the system cannot benefit from the skills of the current employees - in effect, everybody is reduced to a minimum baseline level, in order to ensure that they can be replaced. This is one of the symptoms of the classic 'big software house' disease. It's not enough to get good people, keep them, and survive after they leave - you've got to do all that without impeding their work.

      Very few people manage to build a structure that survives major change and can still benefit from the expertise of the workers. It's really hard.

    2. Re:The relevance of this article.... by killjoe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The larger the corporation you work for the less people matter. I have worked for some large corporation and I have no idea how they kept going. Their products were crap, nobody gave a damn, the workers were treated like shit, the customers worse. Despite all that they kept winning large contracdts and their profits were going up. Their products and services are measurably inferior to the competitions and they cost more but the customers kept choosing them because they were a big company.

      A large company build it's own momentum. People buy the products and services because they think a large company will be more reliable or something. It's crazy.

      Anyway a programmer no matter how brilliant just does not matter to a large corporation. If anything they are a liability because they will be disruptive to the crappy programmers and will not enjoy using the chosen bondage language (java, c# or VB.NET).

      Smart people matter to small companies.

      --
      evil is as evil does
  7. Maintainable code by PietjeJantje · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you have two or three "superstars" who, when they leave, would leave behind a project with a huge learning curve for new developers, they were no superstars to begin with. Of course, any project, especially as it gets more complex, will imply that it gets harder to get into. But I've been in many open projects for many years, some I've seen whither, some grow and survive after the original creators left or even the generation(s) after them. It all depends on how these developers are creating stuff and from what perspective they work. Many, most if you will, are the so called 80% developers, they love adding new stuff and features, but when it comes to making the code clean for others to understand, finish the glitches, work it better into the system, make documentation, they fail. These systems stabalize and/or die after one or two generations, they become unmaintainable. To survive, a better programmer is required. One that programs with this in mind: if I'm hit by a bus tomorrow, will this code be understood and survive? There will still be a learning curve, but much less steep and much more enjoyable and attractive. Moreover, it produces better code and more thought-out software. The downside: les "quick" success, which is not to be underestimated. Although it was closed software, this story in a nutshell would be the old Netscape Browser. My grandma would be ashamed of the source code, the same speed that produced that code allowed it to grow beyond dreams, and it was their downfall, among others.

    1. Re:Maintainable code by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Many, most if you will, are the so called 80% developers, they love adding new stuff and features, but when it comes to making the code clean for others to understand, finish the glitches, work it better into the system, make documentation, they fail.
      True for some developers. In other cases, you have "80% management" that refuses to invest in cleanup work once the features appear to work.
      Back to the topic of the article (sort of), this will happen in a typical corporate environment rather than in a community of Open Source volunteers, because there is no management that can threaten them with firing. Which I believe to be the intrinsic advantage of spare-time dveloped Open Source.

      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
  8. So, what's new? by Cicero382 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "The code without the people is worth nothing," according to Phillipe Cases, partner at VC firm Partech International. "A million lines of code is like a million problems that you have to solve. So the risk on any open source investment project is that the 2-3 guys that created it and maintain it could leave. The commitment of the developers is often the IP -- not the code itself."

    I don't think this is unique to open source... or software development in general. Of course, once VC is involved we're not talking about FOSS in the *strictest* sense - these guys want to make money. Ok, it may be that the revenue stems from support, but that's the same for nearly *all* software projects. (No, I don't mean just fixing bugs - that's a flawed business model to start with... Oh, wait)

    Just to give an example - and to prove the quote above from TFA is wrong (sometimes, anyway):

    Back in the early 80's I was asked to look at a program which required some adjustments. It was written in FORTRAN and it was a *mess*! "Spaghetti code" didn't even begin to describe it - it had GOTOs to GOTOs, looped out code, redundant variables by the dozen - you name it, it had it. It didn't have anything in the way of provenance. It took me two days to trace out how to implement a trivial change. The weirdest thing was there was no way I could really document what I'd done because that would need a framework - and there wasn't one. And, you know what? The company didn't care. They had paid a junior programmer for two days to implement something they needed RIGHT NOW. They didn't need to keep on the original developers (and God knows how many preceded me), nor did they need to insist on adequate documentation. If they needed to make a change in the future, they would just do the same (albeit with a younger and cheaper programmer). They wouldn't employ me to look at it - I'm too expensive.

    My point is that it isn't the software that gets too expensive - it's the developers themselves. Who among us hasn't used a project to enhance their Kudos and desirability in the market?

    So VC's are looking at FOSS in the wrong way. We don't really do it for money (though that's nice), we do it for the satisfaction of getting it right and being able to point to something and say "I did/helped_with that".

    Anyone disagree?

    (Ducks)

  9. Not "all good" for the customers by fantomas · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Let's get beyond the simple binary 'all closed source is bad for customers/users, all open source is good". In an ideal world yes, but open source developers as people have many of the same motivations as closed source developers and the reason they leave a project may be similar - they might be bored with what they are doing, get a better job offer somewhere else, and *not support the software any more*.

    The open source code might *potentially* be resurrected by other developers, but it might not. Leaving customers/ users just as stranded as if it was a closed source project, particularly smaller users who do not have the money /resources to do anything themselves. Just look at sourceforge and see the number of dead projects.

    1. Re:Not "all good" for the customers by asuffield · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Let's get beyond the simple binary 'all closed source is bad for customers/users, all open source is good". In an ideal world yes, but open source developers as people have many of the same motivations as closed source developers

      Let's not. The simple binary is in fact the right answer, so long as you don't complicate it. Here's what I mean:

      A software project can have many attributes that determine how good or bad it is for you. One of these is whether or not it is free software. A free software project is always superior to a non-free project that is otherwise identical (if you're the user). It has been repeatedly shown that this particular attribute is not tied to any of the others - it doesn't determine their values. It may share causes with some of them, but there are many possible causes to choose from, so just knowing whether or not it's free software doesn't tell you anything. So a project can be free but otherwise suck, or it can be proprietary but otherwise good, or any other combinations.

      So long as you keep it as that one-bit value, 'free' vs 'non-free', it makes sense. The failure you're referring to lies in assuming that this bit affects any of the others - it doesn't really. Often people confuse 'free software' with 'community-driven', or 'resembles project X', and that's the mistake.

      The open source code might *potentially* be resurrected by other developers, but it might not. Leaving customers/ users just as stranded as if it was a closed source project

      Looking at this statement in those terms, things become more clear. The free software project can be resurrected by somebody else, the non-free project cannot be resurrected. So it's definitely better to have free software here, because then you've got a chance, instead of having no chance.

      Any individual project may be easier or harder to resurrect, and it may be more or less likely to need it. But these things are not determined by whether or not the project is free software. You'll have to look at other aspects of the project to discover them. Better yet, look at the reasons why the project is the way it is, that tells you even more.

    2. Re:Not "all good" for the customers by turbidostato · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Let's get beyond the simple binary 'all closed source is bad for customers/users, all open source is good'"

      And your end point is that once we go beyond those simple binary assements, if the core developers of a project "resign" due to varied number of reasons, the open source clients are in a worst case scenario no worse that their close source counterparts, and given some not so improbable conditions, they might be better to much better.

      Now, I think this clarifies the waters quite a lot.

    3. Re:Not "all good" for the customers by ClosedSource · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Looking at this statement in those terms, things become more clear. The free software project can be resurrected by somebody else, the non-free project cannot be resurrected"

      Actually non-free projects are resurrected all the time. Look at WordPerfect. It's been resurrected at least twice.

    4. Re:Not "all good" for the customers by Skreems · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Open Source" traditionally means more than just that you can read the code. It also implies that you have certain rights, such as the right to modify and recompile the code. Also, with Windows, you can't see ALL the code. You can see a pretty small fraction, as I understand it. You certainly can't get your hands on enough to compile a Windows build yourself.

      --
      Slashdot needs a "-1, Wrong" moderation option.
      The Urban Hippie
    5. Re:Not "all good" for the customers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Free Software doesn't have a coherent set of goals. Ask any three Free Software hackers why they write Free Software and you are likely to get five answers. What Free Software has is an economic model that works.

      Take Linux, for instance. What are the chances of an undergraduate student from Finland being allowed to hack on a commercial operating system? None, there is no chance that anyone would have give Linus a shot at meaningful work on a commercial operating system when he first started hacking Linux. Once Linus did write Linux what were the chances of Linux being able to compete with the various and sundry commercial operating systems if Linus charged people money to use it? No one would have paid money for early versions of Linux, and no one in their right mind would have even played with Linux had it not come complete with source code distributed under a permissive license.

      Fast forward a few years and Linux is slowly crushing the life out of commercial operating systems, and it continues to do so with hackers that wouldn't have a prayer of getting a shot at meaningful work in the commercial software world. Marcelo Tosatti was maintaining the 2.4 kernel as an 18-year-old high-school student in Brasil. What are the chances of Sun or Microsoft giving that kid a job. Yet Marcelo has been making money writing Linux software since he was 13. He's currently employed by Cyclades. Linus, and most of the other kernel hackers, are also doing far better with Free Software than they would have been had they followed more "normal" career paths. You see, that's the little secret of Free Software, most of the folks writing Free Software get paid to do so. Those that don't get paid directly usually get indirect financial benefits, and they can at least use their Free Software success as a calling card.

      The end result is software that is cheaper to write and maintain than conventional software written by folks that get paid to do what they would probably do for free.

      The reason that Microsoft comes into the discussion has very little to do with the "goals" of Free Software and everything to do with the fact that Microsoft is doing everything in their power to maintain the status quo. Microsoft has built their business around an economic model that requires huge profit margins, and the Free Software business model is destroying those margins. Microsoft controls the computer market, and they are using their current market dominance to drive their incompatible file formats and incomprehensible protocols. Free Software hackers simply want their software to get used (for a variety of reasons, many of which are economic), and Microsoft stands in the way of this goal.

      This isn't saying that there aren't some Linux hackers that don't *hate* Microsoft, but it's not the hate that is driving Free Software adoption, it's the economics.

  10. Commitment is not a matter of OS vs. CS by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've had my share of both.

    I've been working for a large German corporation where I was supposed to develop software. Mostly I developed reports, but that's a different matter.

    Schedules were tight, burnout was running rampart and in the 9 months I worked there, the AVERAGE stay time for a team member was about 3-4 months. With one month being the time necessary to give the person an idea of what the heck's going on in the (very badly written) code.

    That's closed source, ladies and gentlemen.

    It can be the same with open source. With a few very interesting differences.

    With OS, it's no problem to give your applicants the code instead of having to wait 'til you decided for one of them. There is no NDA to sign. You can already base your interview on the question "did they understand the code?". You start with a team member that already knows the basics of your code and knows what is going to come. He already knows if he WANTS the job, since he knows what kind of beast he's going to be pitted against.

    The average stay time will be first of all longer, and more importantly, your new team member has a head start. He already knows the basics of the code, he is getting productive in less time.

    That's open source, ladies and gentlemen.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  11. The world sucked before FOSS by NihilEst · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I don't disagree at all. I'm as old as TFA author, and I remember those days. There were no options, no choice. In fact, computers weren't even a commodity item way back then. One couldn't own a 'serious' computer -- no, Apple }{ was not one of those (and besides, it was $2,000).

    I can't imagine the world of commodity hardware without FOSS. Billy would have us all by the short and curlies -- face it, if FOSS didn't exist, someone would have to invent it.

    I've done quite a bit of closed & open project work. It really doesn't matter. Neither is automatically more prone to success or failure. What matters most is the personalities of those doing the really hard work (is there a good mix?) and whether or not they're willing to go all the way (through documentation and customer support). Closed source projects are usually motivated by cash, and nothing more. FOSS projects, on the other hand, tend to be motivated by ideals and good ideas.

    The total "fit and finish" of the end product often reflects the motivations of its creators: do you, as a user, not like it? Chances are pretty good that the development team didn't, either.

    --
    Founding member: He-Man Windoze Hater Club
  12. you said design documentation ? by arkaino · · Score: 2, Informative
    At that point the company must find new developers / engineers that understand the technology, and it can take months and months for them to decipher from a code perspective how the product works

    Well, in this point, I must say he's right. FOSS projects tend to have poor design documentation, and sometimes it's really hard for new devers to commit code in a relatively short period of time if at all.

    yes I know, if programmers usually don't like to document code, how can you imagine they will document on design when they're not even told so ?. if that changes someday it will be a pretty good play for FOSS projects expansion and lifetime, don't you think ?
  13. N3P, 2 year college about Open Source by network23 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Here's another group working with Open Source;

    From N3P:

    N3P offers a two-year college level training in how to become a successful Project Entrepreneur in Open Source. Our students will learn not only the technical possibilities, but also how to exploit new business opportunities, manage profitable ideas, and create flourishing businesses.

    The typical student is between 20 and 30 years old, driven by one of three motivations; 1) the desire for prosperity, 2) independency or 3) to radically innovate. N3P will carefully screen the applicants for doers, not talkers, while persistence, passion and the ever so important ability to sell, are other important criteria.

    The future will show a great demand for individuals that have the ability to implement necessary changes. They should be entrepreneurs, fluent in new technology, project management and marketing. They also should excel in sales and development of new products and businesses. N3P identifies them as "Project Entreprenerus".

    Most of our students will form their own business before graduating, and it is our expectation that many will be very successful.

  14. Market forces... by John+Guilt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...impressive as they are, can work slowly and/or sporadically. If most companies that hire most developers are stupid in exactly the same way, there's a good chance they won't feel the ill effects for awhile---they can lumber through as hundreds or thousands of bright, innovative, start-ups do the smart thing, live for awhile, and die, like so many virtual particles. Eventually, perhaps, one of them will either succeed or the information that acting in a particular way will propagate up the food chain by absorption, but until then.....