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Making Virtual Sports More Like the Real Thing
The New York Times has an article today with an unexpected source of game criticism: Seattle Seahawks football player Sean Alexander. The athlete made the EA execs nervous at a press conference this week, where he offered up some insightful comments about the Madden series of games. From the article: "Madden has always been great, but it's always been one-on-one, just you and another person, and real football is a team game. You should be able to make a team and play together with your friends. Like if you have 10 friends, you could all play different positions and be in 10 different houses and play together over the Internet. Or maybe you just have like five people, and you control the skill positions and the program controls the other guys."
I'll finally be able to actually crush some kids ribs and tear his elbow ligaments before giving him concussion?
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In case you are like me and hate the reg only articles at sites like the NYT, here's the same topic from Ars Technica,
One of the things missing from Mario Strikers is the ability to "lock" to a specific player (it's probably an offspring of how there's one capain and a triplet of supporters).
In NHL Hitz and Sega Soccer Slam, if I'm playing on the same side as a human, I always like to lock my controller to a single player, because I can identify with the single person, rather than bouncing around (esepcially because sometimes there's contention for control of the player nearest the action.)
SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
It's interesting that the concept of having more than two people in a game has not penetrated into sports games yet. Many other genres have long since adopted this kind of play, even on consoles, which were long constrained by lack of networking ability. First-person shooters? Yup. Role-playing games? Yup, to a dazzling extent. Real-time strategy? Not really, but the nature of the game inherently limits the number of players.
The one genre where teamwork should seem obvious lacks any sort of teamwork gameplay for more than two players. I wonder why it took an NFL player to bring it to the EA execs' minds.
Then again, when you have what amounts to a monopoly in sports games, there's little motivation to innovate. We certainly haven't seen EA do much in that area...
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If he's strictly talking about getting 10 of your personal friends together, why not just go to Target, pick up a cheap football, go to a park, and...play football? Compared to the price of getting 10 gaming systems, 10 copies of the game, 10 online subscriptions, and coordinating the same time to get all 10 of your friends together it's far too much effort.
Now, for online play in general (playing with people you don't know from the entire world), it seems like it may be feasable. The only problem I forsee is the same types of complaints with most other online games: more than half of one team disconnecting before they lose, n00bs bringing a team down, and 1337 players pwning everyone.
Prove it.
The collective thought of all of the EA game coders realizing that, if EA listens to Sean Alexander, there will be lots more unpaid overtime and sleepless nights.
"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." --Barry Goldwater
Ship steroids with the game discs.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Did Alexander just make a dig at his offensive line by implying they aren't "skilled" positions? Let's see how many touchdowns he gets this season... :)
It's just as if I were playing Virtual Skeeball!
Come on, they're never going to be able to make it to a park, never mind play an actual game of anything. And then, even if they did, they'd have to like actually talk to a real person, like in front of them. We're busy cultivating a generation of shut ins.
ok sure, it's flamebait, but true, nevertheless.
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They wear altogether too much padding and gear nowadays for you to break ribs. A good turtle pad and the only thing you'll be breaking is your metatarsals, you tough talker you. Maybe on sub-par pads you could knock the kid's wind out if you catch her right. (Bully.)
Ironically, the one thing the Web does seem to really be offering us is trash talk... Which is the one thing we can verify you actually like to do in real life. ;-)
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
there's little motivation to innovate. We certainly haven't seen EA do much in that area...
Are you kidding? Their franchise modes lack a new conspicuous feature every year!
On the other hand, their game play -- I mean, how many NBALives has it been now where rebounding is utterly and completely unrealistic and bizarre? There's some continuity there. If they were innovating per their usual style, some years you wouldn't be able to jump, and others your arms wouldn't reach for the ball...
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
Even in soccer, otherwise excellent games often have a "switch you into the defender when you're running the opposite way" bug. Argh.
Maybe online play would actually drive some thought about how this feature works for single player, too. It could only be a good thing. There's nothing like the dork in online play who would always switch into the star, you know?
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
why not just go to Target, pick up a cheap football, go to a park, and...play football? Compared to the price of getting 10 gaming systems, 10 copies of the game, 10 online subscriptions, and coordinating the same time to get all 10 of your friends together it's far too much effort.
It's ironic, but anyone who's seen a "life of the big star" thing about sports players knows that, nowadays, they all play these games. Kevin Garnett actually plays himself in NBALive. Yeah, he could go dunk it any time he wants, too, just like I could go to the park in Minneaoplis and play in the snow and the stiff wind chill with my friends.
Sean Alexander knows what he's talking about partly because he plays it too -- and he and his 10 friends do have the kind of money they need for a network setup.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
I think that implementing such a thing could really help to draw new gamers to the sports video games realm. I, personally, have never played sports video games, and mainly for the reasons given by Sean Alexander. If I could play on a team of ten humans, and talk to them and strategize with them as I did it, I think I might enjoy a football video game a lot more than any of the mind-numbing Madden games out right now.
All they'd need to do then is replace John Madden's current lines with new ones that won't make my ears bleed.
But then you realize how boring it is to play an offensive lineman in a video game.
Who's "Sean" Alexander?
The all-pro Seahawks RB is named "Shaun" Alexander.
If you're going to post a front-page story on sports, at least get the first name of one of the top players currently in the game right. This is the equivalent of writing a story on MS and referencing "Steve Bullmer". It's kinda' sad...
Oh no, my point is about realism. There is no realism in any games, never mind sports games. Until we get Star Trek holodecks in our homes talking about realism in computer games is bullshit. At best you are exercising a finger or two.
In terms of training in class, the idea there is to make it as realistic as is possible[1] without getting hurt, mainly because it bloody hurts to breathe, never mind laugh, sneeze or train while you wait 6 weeks for your ribs to heal.
[1] Actually this idea was abandoned decades ago by many sport based martial arts, so, don't expect your head height spinning reverse round house to connect with anything but thin air and land you on your arse when you actually get cornered in an unlit parking lot. Movies (and games) are fantasy and have no basis in reality.
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If I wanted to play sports, I would be outside!
I 1st played multi-player sports with the 3DO, FIFA and 6 controllers (daisy chained). Later the DC with it's built in modem, Madden 2K and a CS class tournament. Madden allows you to creats players now and you can create a player that is your size and ability. Then play the AI (not very good) with your team (family, friends ...) on the same team.
Executing a football play is a complex thing. The play has to be decided upon, the players have to huddle up, each player needs to know their role. The offensive line needs to know who to block, each receiver needs to know their route exactly, tight ends and running backs need to know if they're blocking or receiving. Running plays might be a bit more controlled, but think about possible reverses, options, trick plays, etc. Now, you're actually going to the line of scrimmage, and the defense shows you an alignment you don't like. Now you've got to audible. It's really quite a miracle that with all of this chaos, football players can still go out and execute.
The reason why football plays succeed in real life is because those 11 men on the field practice together like crazy before football comes up every Sunday. Who out there is going to want to try to get 11 buddies out there to practice there this much? Never mind conflicting schedules from real life that could make this impossible, or trying to audible using only your gamepad... it just doesn't make it as much fun. If you're the quarterback, you're involved in every passing play. If you're the running back, you're involved in every running play. If you only get to be a receiver, though, the ball might get passed to you a half-dozen to a dozen times per game. If you're a fullback, you're basically limited to running into people and trying to knock them down. Who's going to want that skill position? And it is a skill position, because of the possibility of getting to do a short-yardage running play or catching the odd pass out of the pocket, etc.
The only way to make sure that everybody holding a gamepad gets to be involved in every play is to make sure that the guy with the gamepad is the one with the ball. That's 1 guy out of 11.
I'm not passionate about this or anything, just not sure how this could work and be both practical and fun. Even in baseball, for instance, where coordinated execution isn't as important as football, it still means a whole bunch of bored guys sitting around waiting for something to happen.
Lock it on first person view.
So the box for Madden '08 will be big enough to be 90% empty and still hold 2 CDs, a dire warning about piracy, a 50 page book of "errata that doesn't work like it says on the outside of the box" and a dirty jockstrap worn by Sean Alexander, Peyton Manning or Troy Polamalu?
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I can remember as far back as Fifa '99 having support for at least four players at once. It was pretty fun.
All you need in order to have this kind of thing online is game join system similar to CounterStrike. You find a game with space on a team, and join. Obviously, unlike CS, you'd be taking partial control over existing players, instead of creating one new one, but the base concept is the same.
Add in a grouping system like Halo 2, and you can get a group of friends together and either create your own new game or go and fill out an existing team.
This article seems to be saying that that's not already possible. Isn't it? I've only ever played sports games offline, so I really know.
It sounds pretty cool but honestly who wants to be the left tackle or the blocking fullback? Most people want to control the glamour positions, QB, WR, LB, CB....so I think his idea is impractical for football. But his idea would make a basketball game awesome!
Are you dense? He's a friggen football player. He plays the real thing all the time. You're acting like this is some fat kid sitting on a couch complaining about football games not being real enough.
Besides, there's other reasons to want to play a game on a gaming system: if you live in different areas and can't get together, if you're injured, if you're a 280lb football player and you want to play your 80lb nephew, if it's currently raining/snowing/too dark, or when you've already been playing professional football all day and you want to play something a little less tiring.
This seems like a brilliant idea. Upon first hearing it, the instinct generally is to shout 'yes! he get's it - EA should do that! That would be so cool, etc...)....except that it really wouldn't be that fun. You can already play with up to 4 (at least). How many people pit all 4 humans against the machine? Not many I bet. Why? Because who wants to be the fat offensive lineman blocking every play. Whoop'd de do! Call me when something interesting happens. All the intricacies that make a football play, like the poster above, just don't lend themselves very well to one to one human correlations. Hey, SeanAlexander, while you're at it, why can't I play as the ref? I would love to affect the outcome of the game like they get to. How cool would that be. "Holding - 10 yd penalty..what? you're arguing? Your kicked out. Please enter your credit card number to deposit your fine to my PayPal account."
Is that 90% of the people will want to be either the QB or RB. Granted you can make the line be computer controlled (you'd likely need to to have any type of cohesive blocking scheme) but who wants to play receiver if every other play is a hand-off?
If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
And why limit people to the players on the field? You could let people play benchwarmers too. You could cheer for your teammates, drink a variety of licensed products, ogle cheerleaders, take your jacket off (and/or put it on), or ask the coach to be put in (but why would you want to be).
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
Actually, the concept already exists in sports game, and it is called "Ultimate Baseball Online" developed by Netamin. Its partnership with ESPN existed for a short while with its software in the early ESPN360 package. However, the game lacks concrete financial backing, and it is a horrible game with a great concept that has been in BETA since 2001/2002.
Ultimate Baseball Online: www.ubo2006.com
For example, when I'm playing PONG on my PC, the experience is almost exactly like the real PONG video game. Down to the pixel. I can see it right there on my screen! Blip, blip, blip...
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
If you're not out on the field running around, you're not playing anything resembling the real game. Back when I was in college, I played intramural football - if you're playing offensive line, the big difference between touch football and tackle football is that you don't get to wear pads in touch football :-) That was sort of like the real thing, and my fairly geeky house always ended up playing against jocks who could stomp us into the ground, but it was still fun. A video game that doesn't involve running around out of breath, physically throwing and catching the ball with your actual arms and back, and banging into people might still let you have fun with your buddies and talk about strategy, but it's no more like the real thing than playing fantasy football while drinking beer with your buddies.
Bill Stewart
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I used to work in a large glass box with 6000 other people. We had four or five softball leagues (ranging from highly competitive to strongly beer-oriented), and during the summer each team would get in about 10 games. I miss it - virtual offices and commuter jobs don't give you the same opportunities. But if you live near a park somewhere, you'll probably find that there are people playing soccer on the weekends, either organized or not, and if you're in the burbs you'll probably find that _somebody_ is scheduling most of the local baseball fields every night during the season. You might have to go out and interact with real people to join in - there's this thing called "community" that used to exist before we all burned out during the 90s boom... Even small-medium startup companies can usually get pickup basketball going (not that I've ever had the speed to survive a game of basketball), or if nothing else you can play Frisbee with other people.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
But does EA have a long-term lock on the Canadian Football League or any of the rugby or Australian Rules or Gaelic football leagues?
This makes me think about one of my favorite game experiences... One that I would love to recreate again, but haven't had the time to look into what's available nowadays. Back in the 92-94 timeframe, I used to visit friends at a little game design company in Knoxville, TN. Apart from way cool digs and what all of us CS guys in college thought was a dream job, they had the best gaming setup around -- a 3DO (I think) hooked up to a projection system and six controllers. Me and my buddies who worked there would gather after classes and play FIFA Soccer. It really was cooperative play and it ROCKED! I haven't had a chance to play a game with six friends that was that immersive and cooperative since then. With screens (projection and otherwise) and game technology that much further along, surely there's something out there that can match that excitement, isn't there?
Also (not to fork too much, but...) I'm hoping folks creating games for the Wii are angling for that kind of cooperative experience and will support lots of controllers. The promo pictures capture the feel of what those FIFA Soccer bouts were like. I'd be very happy with that kind of system and wouldn't care much if the graphics aren't high-def.
Making food at McDonald's takes skill, but in standard labor terminology, fast food cook is not a "skilled" position.
Get those firnds together and go play football. You know, outside, moving around! That's the best way to get the real experience of playing. Sad, sad thing that playing a sport more often means sitting in front of a console rather than going out and moving around. And we wonder why people are so obese?
It's a girl!
Or you could mod a FPS game engine into a sports game yourself.
There's no technical obstacle, but with live players in control, the play will look like a game of pickup football, not the NFL.
Am I caught in a time warp? I could SWEAR I've played Madden on PS2 with more than two players. After double checking the website it supports four with multi-tap. XBox and 360 do as well. PS2 even has online play which I believe would allow four players per console, total of eight. I could be wrong.
Furthermore, there are games like Fifa World Cup that support up to EIGHT players on a single console using two multi-tap units. Additionally I've seen more than one video hockey series that supported more than two players per console. Hell, even Virtua Tennis on Dreamcast supported four players.
Am I missing something?
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