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School Admins Demand Access to Students' Cellphones
Reverberant writes "School administrators in Framingham MA have implemented a policy allowing them to not only confiscate cell phones, but also to search through students' cell phone data as part of their anti drug/violence efforts. Students claim that the policy is an invasion of their privacy."
What these kids don't understand is that simply by attending the school they lose the majority of their rights. Since they are minors, the school becomes their de facto guardian while they are there, and thusly, it has power that supercedes their rights.
Yes, it certainly is. Kids, if any person demands to examine the contents of your cell phone, tell him to get a warrant. Call your parents, call the local press, and call a lawyer.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I don't agree with the principle, I mean I certainly believe it's an invasion of privacy. But there's still always a way around it. It's pretty simple: password protect your phone. I think all cell phones have it nowadays.
Who exactly needs a cellphone at school?
What does need have to do with it? If a kid wants to carry anything with him to school that's legal to posess, and doesn't disrupt the class, it's nobody else's goddamned business. The school's entire legitimate prerogative here is to require the kid to turn it off during class.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
...and your local law enforcement/FBI/DHS will be picking you out at "random" in the mall to confiscate your cellular data. The justification? The obvious catch-all to the Deteriation of Our Privacy: Terrorism. The "while at school" and "you're just a minor" reasoning doesn't seem to hold water when you look at the obvious next step...
wow how would u like it if some kid hopped on your computer and changed everything thanks for being an asshole you'll get yours someday i'm sure
What does need have to do with it? If a kid wants to carry anything with him to school that's legal to posess, and doesn't disrupt the class, it's nobody else's goddamned business
By your logic I should be able to carry a gun around downtown, after all I want to, and it doesn't disrupt anybody, and it's "nobody else's goddamned business"
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
Who exactly needs a cellphone at school?
Noone needs a cellphone. Humanity survived before we even invented them. We don't need cars either. We survived without cars. You're missing the point though.
Creating technology is a good thing and why we shouldn't we take advantage of it? It can be useful, fun or just interesting. If people want cellphones for whatever reason, why not? I can think of many reasons why having a cellphone is better than not having one. I don't see why people should have to justify it though. If someone else wants a cellphone they should be allowed to ahve one as long as they aren't breaking any laws, or in this case, school rules (such as turning them off during the classes).
The real question is are school administrators allowed to reading their pupils diaries? What if their diary is stored on their cellphone? Should we give up all our privacy for the 'thinkofthechildren' and 'terrorism' projects?
I say no. It's annoying that we are forced to use encryption to protect ourselves from our own authorities, but if that is what is required, so be it.
I'll probably be modded down for this...
You realise that technically, that's a felony, right? That's tampering with a computer system, and I'd like to see you cool your heels in jail for a bit to teach you to respect other people's property, you snotty git.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I am nearly 48 years old and I don't give a rat's ass about what some kid can or can not carry inside school grounds.
But I *do* think that current privacy laws were enacted in bad faith and they are used in bad faith.
And it is that very vagueness that allows their manipulation.
As fars as children, cell phones, and privacy... If the school permits someone to carry a device within school grounds and they want to look at the contents of that device, they can go get a warrant... or they can go fuck themselves.
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
I meant if I had it tucked into my belt (yes stupid way to carry a gun), or in a holster, you know I'd get the 3rd degree.
It's sad for you that you live in a country which has stupidly decided to endanger its citizens by denying your right to self-defense, but your attempt to rationalize one violation of rights with an example of another violation of rights (that you seem to think is just fine and dandy) doesn't support your position.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Since the cell phones tend to be the property of the students (whereas the lockers would be the property of the school), the school has no right to search a student's piece of property.
Maybe they have the right to search a student's piece of property if there is just cause that a crime is being committed, but as for what the procedure is to take, I don't know. Depending on what it is, probably contact the police, contact the parents, and perform a search on the cell phone if the cell phone, which is student property, is physically located on the campus at the time. I think the same can go for backpacks and whatnot. (I'd have to think about all of this though.)
The kids just enter names like 'pot dealer' with the principles home number. They text threatening things to their friends in jest, all pre-agreed between parties. They enter 'Osama bin laden' with the number of their local FBI field office. They text each other about fictional big-time drug deals and terrorist plots. They overload the system with so much false information that the entire exercise becomes pointless and a huge administrative burden.
The staff should give the pupils full access to their mobile phones as a gesture of good will, you never can be sure what those pesky teachers get up to in their personal lives.
Although you're taking it to extremes with something that's designed souly to injure and/or kill, cellphones have lots of uses, and although it's possible to kill somebody with one I really don't think that's the issue here.
Lets stop people from carrying pornography on them as it may fall out of their bag and cause mental anguish to passers by for the rest of their lives.
The point is cellphones are widely accepted and used, but piss people off in cinemas, churches and other places where concentration or quiet is needed; schools need step back from their authoritarian power trip and just deal with it as they've been doing for the past few hundered years (e.g. if you piss of the teacher you get beaten/caned/detention depending on which century you were born in).
Everybody has things that other people don't and shouldn't need to know about, what if a teacher sees a picture of a 14 year olds girlfriend naked on their confiscated mobile phone or if a mother has sent a txt message about something highly confidential (e.g. clinic appointment, death etc.).
>There was a time when you got CANED for even breathing out of turn.
And there was also a time when 'niggers' couldn't sit in the same place in a bus as the whites. What's your goddamn point? That because kids were regularly abused in the past in schools, they should be thankful that trampling their privacy is the worst they get?
School doesn't allow cell phone in the premises? Then the teachers take the phones. There's a whole world of difference between that and messing with the contents.
---- Take the Space Quiz!
how is the school supposed to know if the cell phones are even the property of the students? chances are it technically belongs to the parents in which case it's an invasion of their privacy.
By your logic I should be able to carry a gun around downtown, after all I want to, and it doesn't disrupt anybody, and it's "nobody else's goddamned business"
Maybe you already know this, but hey, I'll point it out to be sure.
You can do that in 2/3 of the United States.
Bloodshed does not ensue.
Why are you take issue with inanimate objects? Wether it's a gun or a cell phone or a car or a baseball bat, the object does nothing on it's own. He or she that posseses and uses it- makes all the difference in the world.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
What about the kids who drive to school? I never drive anywhere without a cell phone. A better plan would be to bring it, have it off, and don't tell the world about it.
One thing that has been common among "progressive schools" is that parents lose many of their rights governing the activities of their children once they cross the threshold of the school. For a society which likes to admonish parents for not holding their children accountable, discipling them, many think its okay for schools to usurp the parents choices. If you diminish the values of parents the children will lose respect for those values and you get the problem you claim you were trying to avoid.
In many areas of the country the schools have been too invasive into families and worse they are nearly immune to correction. This is just another symptom of failing schools. When on the downward spiral you make damn sure all those who can criticize you fear you in one way or another. An "unusual" mark on a child - automatic suspicion of child abuse. Too thin, child abuse. Too fat, child abuse. DFACs should know!!! Bad grades, must be from a bad home environment; again child abuse!
Want absurd? One guy at work mentioned that a neighbor got a letter from the school's counselor. Seems the kid didn't like what he did or did not get in his lunch his mom sent him to school with. The school actually wrote a letter suggesting that the parents aceed to their child's wishes or give him money to buy a school lunch or snacks!!!
Too many of the schools are run by arrogant self style intellectuals. Another person at work recently moved so his wife could teach in a new school district all to get out from overbearing peers whose views of how children and parents should be handled came close to being unethical. There are many good teachers and administrators but too many are cowed by those who know the system and use it againts "non-conforming teachers", students, and even parents.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Guess I'm a little surprised how little value freedom has in America these days.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Well, it seems Principle Michael Welch didn't have this policy at his previous station, Newton South HS (fairly rich and very, very, very white), but created it at Framingham HS (much poorer and much, much less white). I'm guessing he thinks white kids don't do drugs and steal things.
I think this cracker is crumbling under the pressure of a "multiculturial enviroment" and all he can say is "Welcome to amerika."
Some of the posts are from folks who seem to have missed the fact that this is a high school, and most the kids there are required to attend by law.
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
I went to Brooklyn Technical High School in New York and it was PLAGUED with scandals. Sexual abuse, underage sex, corrupt principal, teachers stalking kids, etc. You can read about our principal here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn_Technical_Hi gh_School. Just scroll to the bottom for "Lee McCaskill controversy".
Now I'm all for schools trying to keep drugs and weapons out of schools. But when the school administration itself is playing dirty, who can you trust? What if a pervert of a teacher accuses a girl of selling drugs and looks at her cell phone?
If a school wants cell phone access for safety, then students (or at least the PTA) should have the same rights. I want to know that my principal is not spending school money to build a house. I want to know that my math teacher is not buying underage kid porn somewhere. I want to know that my dean is not in anger management classes. And so on. Seems extreme and strange for us to have this information right? Well that's the same way students feel when you take their cell phones and look through them.
If O2 is good, O3 must be 1.5 times better!
One word: Columbine.
Every time a school district tries to ban phones, the parents freak out, remembering Columbine (or any number of other school shootings, but Columbine is the biggie): "What if I have to contact my child in an emergency? What if something happens and s/he needs to call me or 911?"
Of course, the answer to these questions is easy: Call the school and they'll yank the kid from class, and teachers also have cell phones and can call 911 if needed. But the parents don't want to hear it.
The school districts always cave, probably because they can easily imagine a scenario where some kid dies on school property who would likely have lived if only s/he'd had a cell phone to summon help, and the parents sue the school district for millions because their no-phone policy killed the kid.
Simple thing to do: DON'T CARRY A PHONE.
I realize that is unthinkable these days, but ask yourself - do you REALLY need to be able to talk/text to your friends EVERY SECOND OF THE DAY? They are there at the school, more than likely - cannot you just see them face to face?
And if you need to call home to tell your parents you are going over to George's after school - there's this really cool thing, kind of like WiFi, where companies create these hot-spots for telephony, and they even PROVIDE THE EQUIPMENT FOR YOU! You walk up to this phone, and you can make a call! What will they think of next?
And if your folks need to leave a message for you - if it is important, they can call the school. If it is not important, they can leave it on the answering machine and you can call it to get your messages.
Last but not least - in many cities, if you need to make a call while you are out, you could get your NoCode Tech radio license and use the autopatch to make a call (or if your folks are hams you can even bypass this step). I'd love to see Officer Unfriendly and Principal Suspicious when you walk out with your Yaesu VX7 on your belt:
"STOP: leave your phone."
"I don't have a phone."
"What's that?"
"That's my amateur radio."
When they tell you to leave it anyway, you can remind them that operating the radio without a license is a violation of FCC regs - as in, a Federal issue. Even so, there is NOTHING they can do with it.
So in closing - ask yourself, do you really NEED your phone, or is it a case of WANTING your phone?
www.eFax.com are spammers
First off, as my parents were so fond to remind me when I was a kid. As a minor, you have the right to be fed, clothed, housed, and not abused. Anything else is a gift that you are not entitled too. So drop the civil rights crap.
Secondally, when you enter on to school property. The school is your de facto guardian. And in some places, simply 18 isn't enough. You can still technically be considered a minor if you are 18 AND still in high school. I seem to recall an issue in Texas where a teacher was sleeping with an 18 year old student, and because the student was still in high school, the teacher was charged for having sex with a minor.
Lastly, only police need a warrent. As long as a school offical is not acting as an agent for the police department, they do not need a search warrent AND what they find is admissible in court.
Get over it...If you don't want your cellphone examined, don't bring it on to school property. My employeer reserves the right to go through anything I bring on property. So what I do, is not bring anything on property that may get me in trouble, or that I do not want my employeer to have access too. What's so hard about that concept?
It may shock you to learn this, but today's schoolchildren do not walk home through an idyllic suburban landscape to be met by June Cleaver with a plate of cookies.
They walk through questionable neighborhoods, and come home to empty houses. They stay after school to play sports or work on projects. They drive to after-schol jobs. Parents are late coming home, and need the kid to pick up siblings from daycare. Things come up. Cars break down. Plans change. School offices are not answering services; if they were, they'd be swamped.
Kids "need" cell phones for all the same reasons adults say they "need" cell phones.
The US free market: two halves of a government-granted duopoly are free to set the market price.
Are there any lawyers in the audience that can comment on whether a school can legally strip a student of the right to defend him or herself from physical violence? So far as I'm concerned, if I'm attacked I will use whatever means at my disposal to remove the threat. Period. I think any other creature on this planet would do the same. Even an amoeba will fight back.
... KIDS FIGHT. They do, because there's always those few that are violence-prone, and unless the school is prepared to completely excise those bad apples from the student body they have no good reason to punish any other student for fighting back. Generally speaking, schools won't get rid of the complete assholes because they, of course, have "rights". You would think that the kids they beat up would have the "right" to a terror-free school day, but apparently that's not a priority.
Personally, I'd rather be suspended (or expelled) than suffer serious injury: some bullies don't know when to quit. Matter of fact, I used to get the shit kicked out of me quite regularly in grade school, until my ex-Marine uncle taught me some self-defense. Oh sure, I still got the shit kicked out of me but at least I had the satisfaction of causing some damage, and it took more of them. Now, given a choice, I'll avoid a fight on principle. However, sometimes I wasn't given the option, and in those cases I fought back: on principle.
If nothing else, I managed to restore my self-respect, and if you don't think that's important you probably don't have any. Self-respect is especially important to someone that is being bullied. The whole point of being a bully is to build up your own self-respect at the expense of someone else's, a kind of mental vampirism. The psychological damage caused by bullying is significant and long-lasting, and school administrators that deal with bullying by futher victimizing the recipients need to learn what food stamps are all about.
Telling a child that he can't defend himself from a bully is insane, pacifist bullshit more suited to a hippie commune than a school where, I have to say
This is obviously just for the convenience of the administration who would rather not deal with the subtleties of why someone was beaten to a bloody pulp. That's unfortunate, because it is an awareness of just those details that can prevent further violence. So, let's take a kid that's already having a hard time, tell him "when you're attacked, don't even think about throwing a punch", and then when he's lying on the ground bruised and miserable we'll suspend his ass for fighting. That's one sensitive administration you have there: what I would take away from that would be "no, we're not on your side, we don't understand right from wrong, really we're on the side of the bullies that are terrorizing you so don't even think of turning to us for help."
That is probably not the message they think they're sending, but actions speak louder than words.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
I would issue a school policy banning them all. I would all electronic devices other than a calcluator and a watch confiscated, and require the parents to come retrieve them.
No passing notes, electronic or otherwise, in class. They have no part in what the students are allegedly doing: learning.
On the other hand, searching the data, unless there was probable cause to believe that they were passing test data, violates the US Constitution. No public school is in loco parentis.
And no, if my kids were still in school, they would *not* carry phones. They can call when they get home, the way kids have done for 50 years.
mark "like me and my kids"
"What is wrong with mandatory drug testing?"
The rights given us by Our Creator are absolute, and recognition of your privacy is acknowleged in the 4th Amendment guarantees.
So, since The Man has no WARRANT for a search, and PROBABLE CAUSE doesn't exist, it's UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
Now if people BEND OVER FRONTWARDS to comply, that's THEIR problem.
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
Art and music may not (MAY not) result in you getting X% more paycheck, but there are things that are "useful" and "important" that are not related to a paycheck.
I consider the time I spent in music in high school and college to have been very useful to me, though I don't think they've earned me a dime. I could have easily given up a couple of years of calculus and it wouldn't have affected me at all, including pay or play, but I wouldn't want to have not had my music classes.
If you want to talk about useless, let's get rid of sports. It's insane how much money is cranked into sports. I don't have much problem with phys ed, but seeing schools that don't have enough teachers or classrooms, but they have a million-dollar football field really bugs me. Though I suppose to the people involved with those, they're important as well.
What is right about drug testing? What is wrong about letting people do what they want as long as they aren't harming anyone else?
Teaching for tests is better than not teaching, and, frankly, arts and music aren't very useful.
Teaching for thinking and the opportunities education opens up is even better, teaching for tests doesn't teach to think. Arts and music aren't "useful"? Try and ask the RIAA and the MPAA if they think the arts aren't useful. The members of these organizations make billions of dollars as do some artists, admittedly not all but some do. Knowing the arts also leads to more creativity and not just in the arts but also in the sciences. Art also enriches culture. Art is very much useful!
FalconShould there be a Law?
where the student can be indoctrinated and turned into a consumer.
Becoming a consumer is incidental. The purpose of public schooling is to train children to be docile and to look to authority to take care of them.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
This is just part of a larger ideological change toward authoritarianism. From cities banning smoking anywhere in the city (not just public places), from people wanting to tax soda and fast foods to discourage their consumption, to people wanting to ban cold medicine because it can be used to make crystal meth, to people wanting to restrict video games, to laws restricting pornography and "hateful speech", to laws that require you to wear seat belts and helmets on motorcycles, to laws that say what formats can be played on digital music players, to gun control, to police checkpoints for sobriety... Since the end of the cold war Western society has kind of abandoned the old school liberal "live and let live" philosophy for one where we want a central authority to use force to solve all our problems. Now that there isn't a big evil empire to judge ourself against we are adopting the same police-state mentality that we were fighting against during the cold war.
So a school wants to be able to check out people's cell phone records. Well, so what? The IRS is already entitled to records of all your financial transactions, and you must be able to supply it on demand or go to jail. The FBI can already wiretap you without a warrent in "national security" issues. The U.S. has already abandoned large parts of the Bill of Rights ("campaign finance reform" restrictions on speech, gun control, seizing assets of suspected drug dealers without a trial)... and most of the police state tactics are just as popular elsewhere in North America and Western Europe as in the United States.
This is not about cell phones... this is part of a bigger pattern of authoritarianism. The trouble is nearly all people support some sort of police state tactics - They may feel drugs should be legalized (good!), but then they want guns banned (bad!)... they feel gays should be allowed to marry, adopt kids, and be entitled to the same rights as everyone else (good!), but then they want to ban speech that gays might find "hateful or offensive" (bad!). They want the U.S. military to stop occupying Iraq (good!), but they want the U.S. military to occupy New Orleans (bad!). They want to stop the FBI from seizing people's financial records without warrent in order to hunt "terrorists" (good!), but then they want the IRS to seize people's financial records without warrent to tax for the welfare state (bad!). Nearly everyone has a set of issues or behavior that they want to see the iron fist of the government come crashing down on. Nearly everyone has a few issues that they are rabidly authoritarian about. And, as a democratic compromise, we get all the most reactionary authoritarian policies of each person's political views implemented as the policies of state.
Schools already have mechanisms in place to contact students/pupils if necessary.
This is just false. Almost no schools continue to operate the administrative offices after official school hours. On the other hand, many, if not most, students still engage in school-related activities on school grounds after official school hours. From sports to clubs to theater, modern kids spend much more of their day in school than kids did in previous generations. For much of that time, the normal school infrastructure that allows children and parents to stay in contact is *not* present.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
> Things were bad in the late 80s, but dear god... the crap kids have to endure NOW from AuthoriNazi administrators is just over the top.
I'll accept that there are some AuthoriNazi admins out there, but by far the biggest force screwing up the schools is the combination of school boards and insurance companies that won't stand up to Nazi parents, who won't stand for their child having to follow all the same rules that the other kids have to follow.
The school district I worked in last year is being torn apart by that situation.
Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught. -- Sir Winston Churchill
However, if you get caught by security guards driving on their golf carts patrolling the student parking lot, they will search your car.
Here's some advice that will serve you the rest of your life: Never let anybody search your vehicle or home unless they have a warrant. You have a choice. You don't think you do, but it's there. You can always just leave. Exit the premises. If they wish to continue their harassment then they'll need to find a cop and a judge to sign off on a warrant to search your car off premises.
If they want to search it the next day do the same: Unlock the car, get in, and leave.
There is nothing they can do, short of visiting violence upon you, to keep you under their control. If they do initiate violence upon you, well, let's address that now.
There is also another degredation of rights where I go to, pertaining to violence. If someone walks up to you and flat out punches you for no reason, you cannot do anything.
I'm 26 and this was pretty much the policy in our schools too when I went. Ignore it. If somebody attacks you knock their block off. Fight, and fight dirty. Got a book in your hands? Throw it at them -- when they duck or try and dodge it make contact. Use your surroundings. Floors are usually quite hard objects -- especially school hallways. Get 'em on the ground, get on top, and smash their freaking head into it. See if you can get a friendly high school wrestler to show you a few things -- like how to run a "double leg ride" and a "power half."
Fight not to avenge, but to stop the threat.
Sounds a bit extreme, I know, but I presume you're between 16 and 18 years old. The manner in which you act now will take a long time to shake out of your head, if it is ever possible.
You're becoming an adult, and it's time to act like one. Adults should not submit to random searches by rent-a-cop, or even actual police without a warrant. Adults should not submit to violence visited upon them by thugs on the street.
Sometimes this means making tough choices. Don't want to be searched? Don't leave campus. If you still decide to leave campus and somebody wants to search your car and you're not too keen on that idea just leave.
If somebody commits an act of violence upon you you have to make a decision: Shall I presume that the attack will not immediately further and risk being beaten into a bloody pulp, possibly resulting in serious injury? Or should I defend myself and risk suspension?
Hospital beds suck a lot worse (and cost a lot more) than a suspension. While the suspension can be pretty much guaranteed it is far easier to weather.
In parting I'd like to make one final observation based upon my conjecture. I presume that you're between the age of 16 and 18 years old given that you can leave campus during school. Further, because this is Slashdot I'm going to presume that you are male. Consider this:
You are at a time in your life when you are the most likely to resist authority. It comes with the age. You're also at a time in your life when there's as much testosterone flowing through your body as ever before which makes you the most prone to violent actions. If you are conditioned to accept authoritarian control of your life (searching your private property) and further conditioned to accept that violence visited upon you should be met with no resistance then it is going to be one Hell of a battle to get out of that mindset later on in life.
If you don't stand up for your human rights at this juncture in your life because you're afraid of a suspension or a mark in your school record it will be infinately harder to do it when you've got a good job, a wife, and a family to feed on the line.