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Is Graduate School Useful in Today's World?
An anonymous reader wonders: "gradschoolstory.com has an entry on the Top 10 Reasons to go to Graduate School in the Modern World. Why did Slashdot readers go to graduate school and what did they get out of it?"
a graduate degree!
Assuming they graduated from said graduate school...
(end of post)
Interesting contacts, a job closer to my interests, and higher pay. Not so bad a combination, I think.
That was my #1 reason. I wasn't really happy doing general business consulting after my undergrad, so I quit to get a Master's degree and get myself into the entertainment industry. I moved myself across the U.S. to do so, and I've got to say I haven't regretted doing so.
I have a year left in my program, but I'm confident that I'm going to get a job where I want. Programming video games is a little more specific than other industry changes, perhaps, but at least in this case I know that I'm getting some skills and practical experience doing things I haven't ever done before. A lot of people said to me, "Don't go back to school, just program some games yourself!" That's hard to do when you've got a full-time job and a commute, so I decided going back to school was the best thing to do in my case.
School is expensive, but having a job that you love doing is worth any amount of money.
Well, the door was open...
I wore scruffy clothes and thought mind blowing thoughts. I ended up with some great stories and nothing of any value for my resume. This happened to 90% of the folks who entered with me. All of us had to go reinvent themselves and take jobs that they could have gotten without a PhD. All of us work alongside people with bachelor's degrees and one even works for a man who dropped out of his undergraduate college to study calligraphy. Unless you have a real desire to study one particular subject, I think you should run as fast as you can away from graduate school. It's great fun if you're already sure of what you want to study. But if you're going to tread water, do it in an office where they pay you a real salary. The universities are filled with professors who make $200k/year, presidents who make $1m and grad students who make $10k. Plus, it's a terrible ponzi scheme. Remember that the professors need warm bodies to do the work that brings in the grants. They don't get paid until you get there. But once you graduate, you become competition. So they want you to check in and never leave to be a success.
My $0.02 anyway.
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Graduate school is definitely an asset in the software engineering industry. At my company, people in positions with the most responsibility, such as software architects and managers, primarily have graduate degrees. Software architects, who are tasked with coming up with a framework under which 10-50 engineers develop within, typically have PhDs in Computer Science or Mathematics. First-level people managers typically have a masters in Computer Science, or occasionally an MBA. Second-level people managers, known as directors here and many other places, nearly always have an MBA.
I've been doing quite well at my company with a simple bachelors in Computer Science, but it will take me much longer to become an architect without a graduate degree in CS. It would also be very difficult to obtain director status without an MBA. I'm not saying it's impossible for me to obtain these roles, but having an advanced degree gives one substantial credibility, even if it is undeserved.
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Somebody has to do basic research. Somebody has to teach the next generation. Both of these require advanced studies, of which graduate school is the standard means. If you're smart enough and dedicated enough and masochistic enough to hack a PhD, go for it.
With a masters degree on the other hand you will have specialized somewhat and be ready for independent work in your field, whereas with a bachelors you will be well prepared for entry level work.
Another reason is that with the economy perpetually on the verge of collapse, your investment in a masters degree will stand you in good stead when competing for nearly any job.
To answer your secondary question, I went to graduate school because I was afraid of the real world. I don't recommend that reason. It turns out nobody out here has much more clue than I do.
I would have to go for #7 and #8 in the list:
I'm a software engineer and study masters part-time during the evenings. I do this mainly to study interesting CS topics that I wasn't given the chance to do in my undergrad. Also, real-life projects sometimes don't require as much creativity. I find that in the industry your creativity would revolve around the "how" rather than the "what". For most software engineers in software houses, requirements have already been laid out for them by clients. I would like to get involved in projects that I find interesting regardless of whether the world would like to use it or not.
I do understand that people do masters for various reasons. I would say a good 50% do them solely for career advancement and for bragging rights after they get their degree. That's not to say I won't be proud to have done graduate studies but I would say 70% of me is doing it out of interest while the rest for my career. I would have to say though that most software engineers probably don't need (technical) graduate degrees unless they'd like to eventually end up in hardcore research (in universities or for companies like IBM).
To answer the thread question, I don't think graduate studies in a technical field like CS or engineering is very useful in a technical job if you've got a good undergrad. However if you want to branch out to other fields or get into management then something like a masters in bioinformatics or MBA would be useful.
Well, it's pretty obvious one thing you didn't get out of it: a working knowledge of English grammar.
I received an undergrad in Physics and Comp Sci from a liberal arts college, so I thought I was pretty well rounded. I then went into various development, network management, and eventually IT leadership positions. I started pursuing my MBA thinking it was basically going to be busy work to prove to others that I am ready to move to the next level (a leadership position outside if IT). Some of it is busy work, but there is real value to much of the content, even though I've been a do-er and a leader in corporate America for a number of years. I'm about half way through earning my degree, and I've already learned a lot that will help me attain and be successful at the next level.
I'm doing a PhD in robotics solely because when I left my undergrad degree there were no jobs for someone with my skillset and qualifications. Sure, I made the mistake of not looking for work before I actually completed, but I was driven to spend all my time studying to get that last high distinction. I'm using my post-grad as a form of on the job training in UAV design and control - the kind of work that's impossible to get as a graduate unless you've got years of experience. It's thrown me in the deep end and I've had to swim, lest I sink. Now I'm planning to use my experience, ideas and a bit of technology I've made along the way to begin a startup making flying things - it's exciting. I receommend a PhD to anyone with the marks who's hopeleslly driven to succeed but doesn't know the next step after their degree. Whatever you do, though, don't start a degree without some idea of where you want to go. I said "flying robots" and that was barely specific enough. If you can't say "I want to do X, Y, and Z", then keep thinking about it. Oh, and you'll only ever accomplish W, btw, so make sure it's enough to write up with!
Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
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In Hindu tradition, a person's life from age 5 through 25 is supposed to be spent in the pursuit of education.
The people who thought this up must have had some motive :)
They did however impose celibacy on the Brahmachari. The idea's obviously not going to be popular now.
'tis but a scratch.
Being an undergraduate, I'm wondering - how does one afford to go to Graduate school and quiting their job? Do they go to Graduate School while working? how does this work?
War isn't about who's right. It's about who's left.
I attended graduate school at Yale University. I got to learn from some truly great teachers, and have that experience to rely on for the rest of my life. I also benefit from being able to send my resume to just about any company and get an interview - I've never had a problem getting a job.
Especially for Piled high and Deeps, the destination is never guaranteed, so you'd better enjoy the journey.
I'm about ~50% through my PhD.
In my field -- I research VLSI CAD algorithms for semiconductor development (and will be working for a major FPGA manufacturer when I graduate) -- people simply don't get jobs without having a PhD. (Well, some people do, but they tend to be the exception, not the norm; and people without PhDs tend to get stuck working on the GUIs or writing test scripts more than new development.)
The differences in payscale (in my field) can be quite drastic, too -- typical yearly salaries are ~$65k for a bachelor's, ~$85-95 for a master's, ~$105-110 for a PhD. I'm not suggesting that it was more economically feasible for me to take the ~4 years to get my PhD, but it sure is nice to think that my salary has a wider "upward" potential than someone without.
And, in the scheme of things, doing a PhD is fun. My wife goes to work; I stay home. And sleep. Wake up. Write code (usually in my housecoat). I'm always "at work" (in that if I'm not coding, then I'm at least always thinking about what I need to do). But it's comfortable. Sometimes, maybe, a bit lonely. But flexible. When I'm done this PhD, I know that I'll look back on these days fondly.
There are too many accredited diploma mills out there it seems. Sad to say but it's getting harder to differentiate between candidates, so many companies are requiring further study. Is that the right thing to do? I don't know, but it they're definitely going in that direction.
If you really want a good start in any engineering field, I'd suggest a MSc.
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
Sounds like you never went for an MBA...
No, and I probably never will.
I wasn't actually attacking on MBAs in general; I was just pointing out that our President has an MBA.
Here's the thing about people that go to grad school to get an MBA. A very small percentage are interesting people who want to do interesting things in life, and they see their path as owning or running a business. The vast majority of people earning or who have earned an MBA do it because it will lead to more money. These people are uninteresting. Boring. Status quo. It's hard to blame any of them individually for the world's ills, but it's awfully hard to posit that they're part of the solution.
Maybe you're part of the one or two percent that will go on to do something interesting. If so, my hat's off to you. However, don't go over-inflating the worth of an MBA beyond its earning power.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
... a graduate degree is a great thing. It opens doors to jobs which simply would be shut otherwise (e.g: DARPA now only hires Ph.D.s to be program managers) and you can expect a healthy salary premium for those jobs. That said, it takes a particular kind of personality to do well in grad school and to excel at those jobs which require graduate level degrees. If you're in it just for the money, do an MBA, because you are likely to be miserable (and, incidentally, also make the people in your classes miserable) otherwise. Expect to put in 5 to 8 hours of projects and studying in per hour of lecture if you're serious about succeeding. If you aren't comfortable working with theory and concepts at a highly abstract level, you also need to seriously reconsider your motivation for pursuing a graduate degree. If you lack the intellectual curiosity and discipline to seek answers out for yourself, you have no place in grad school. The program that I went through hit the theory hard very early on (mostly as a way of weeding out candidates, the department's philosophy was generally to let most people in and let the core classes separate the wheat from the chaff) and the projects were designed to really emphasize the interface between theory and practice.
In summary: if you're the sort that does well in an R&D environment, then a graduate degree is going to open a lot of doors. Otherwise, you're going to want to steer clear.
Got an MSEE that my employer paid for. Got a raise out of it, but little else. Most of what I use on a day to day basis is from application notes, manuals published by industry component makers like Xilinx and Cypress Semiconductor, IEEE papers and my own library of books.
My employer offered to send me to get a PhD, but the reward to annoyance ratio was prohibitive. I think my exact response was "Ha ha ha ha ha! You're kidding, right?" I dunno... I just have no buring desire to be called "Doctor". I think it's pretentious.
Instead I spent the time designing equipment that won me company awards, and much more respect than some piece of paper. :-)
I disagree with both the parent and the response. First, I don't care what graduate school you go to, 90% of the people don't drop out. If you were looking at graduate schools, and you saw a 90% attrition rate, would you ever consider attending? No, not at all. The parent post is right in that professors do need warm bodies to do their bidding, and they will try to keep you under their thumbs for as long as possible. However, it serves their best interests to let you graduate, or else no prospective graduate student in their right mind will matriculate to that school or join that research group, especially the smart ones! In the same way that top tier (Ivy League included) schools are accused of padding grades, graduations are also padded to make their school look good. Second, competent professors are filthy rich, especially in the more technology specific fields. I don't disagree with edremy's salary assessments; he seems fully accurate on that count. However, in any field that involves the discovery of new things/processes (biology, chemistry, physics), income from patents are going to match or exceed income for even the mediocre professors. The reason for this is they get cuts off whatever patents their graduate students may stumble upon. When you consider how many students a professor has in the lifetime of a patent, you can see that it would be fairly easy for a prof to be sitting on a few patents at a time for the duration of his career with a relatively small percentage of his graduate students ever producing a patent. If you don't believe my logic/rationalization, check out where your advisors live and ask yourself if they can do that on an income under $100k a year.
> If you really think the majority of professors make $200k, you're nuts. At the school where I work, incoming assistant profs make ~$40k, associate profs with tenure about $55k and the full professors clear about $90k.
Clearly it depends on the school and the professor's field, but those numbers are way low for computer science.
Check out the Taulbee Survey. Scroll down to Table 34, examine the median and mean for tenure track salaries, and take note of the fact that that's a 9-month salary for someone who just put their foot on the stair.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
I spent a year leading the grad student government at my school and spent an insane amount of time talking with students, administrators and faculty about graduate education. From that point of view, graduate school is getting a PhD. Masters and professional students serve two purposes: fund raising and an outlet for failed/burned out Ph.D. students. If you're not paying tuition and you're getting a master's, someone somewhere thinks you'll end up getting a doctorate. The difference in research and learning between a 2 year master's and a 6 year doctorate is huge. Getting a master's degree is a continuation of your bachelor's work. Getting a PhD redefines your life. It can be good, it can be bad, but it forces you to see what you are capable of.
If you're not exited by the chance to do research, if you wouldn't work in the best lab for (insert your favorite area of research here) for free, grad school may not be for you. Universally, if you do not love your subject, you will not finish. No matter how important or cool your research is, no one is going to care about it. Sure, at the end, someone may be interested, but you're not going to get a lot of attention even from friends and family while in the middle of the project. Your boss may not care about it. Many people drop out of grad school not because it is too hard, but because it's too long. Family emergencies, health problems, getting older, poverty and boredom are all killers in grad school. Anything that can distract you at a crucial moment can lead to someone else publishing that great paper that would have finished your dissertation.
That's not say it's all bad. There are reasons to be here. It's a bit difficult (not quite impossible) to get into science without a PhD. Certainly, being invited to work on things like fusion and nanotechnology is better than begging for it. If what motivates you is science, technology and shaping the future, then go to graduate school. It's an opportunity to work on what you think really matters. For example, many people today think we're too dependant on oil, graduate school is one opportunity to actually do something about it. If what motivates you is money, fame, personal freedom, video games, sports, politics, or anything like that, maybe it's not for you.
Another interesting thing about grad school is the age of the people here. At my school, the average grad student is 30 (there are 5000 of us, so that's not just a few old-timers). Either we've been in grad school forever, or we've been out to the world and discovered that it's not all we'd hoped for. Grad school is a place where you really can get out as much as you put in. Working for the right people can lead you to opportunities to do things you were told were impossible in college. It's a place where you can work on things you've only read about in science fiction. It's a place where you really can get a lot done, and you can see the frantic pace of progress first hand. It's also a place that can chew you up, spit you out, openly treat you like a second class citizen and ruin your life.
I went for two reasons.
First, I read the course descriptions of the Masters program, and drooled. Most of my peers recoiled in horror. I say, go with your gut on that one. You're not going to have a chance to get that education as easily.
The second one won't apply to you. I had to decide in 1999 whether to try to get a job or go into a post-grad program, before the pop. However, I fully expected it to occur, and I figured after two years things should have settled down. As it turns out I was wrong and it was still pretty tough going even in 2002, but I wouldn't have been any better off outside of school. At least they paid me to go.
As for whether it will be useful outside of school, I am a firm believer that if you start from the assumption that your schooling was worthless, you will never even realize how wrong you are; you'll encounter certain hard problems, and waste time hacking out partial solutions when you could have actually solved the problem better and in less time if you used your schooling. Having a Master's level education ups the problems you can attack with confidence even further. However, if you are stuck in the "school is useless" ideation, then for goodness' sake don't waste another two years of your life in it. You need some real experience to evaluate your position better. You might end up coming to the same decision that more school isn't for you, but you'll be making that decision on a much firmer basis.
Yes, we know. And 78.2% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
Do you honestly believe this?
In my classes, we've talked about this. It's the first question the professors ask: "Why are you here?" People are brutally honest. A few say they're in it for the money. A few say they like the idea of adding initials to their name. Some never went to college, so they're trying to wrap up undergrad and graduate school at the same time.
The vast majority, however (and no, I'm not going to quote statistics -- because I don't have any) say they're tired and bored with their jobs. They like where they work more or less, but their particular tasks are repetitive and dull. System admins, programmers, etc. They want to move up to a position where their decisions matter.
Years ago, you could climb the corporate ladder to become a manager/director/CTO/CIO. You can't do this anymore. Many positions are revolving doors, and it's almost impossible to make your mark in companies that are always in flux. Just like more decent businesses won't accept you unless you have a college degree (bare minimum), most businesses won't accept managers who haven't got an MBA. It's the current reality of business and you'll just have to get used to it.
Also, I would like to comment on the "interesting things in life, and they see their path as owning or running a business" bit. I don't see owning a business as a particularly interesting thing (at least not "more interesting" than managing in an established company). I know plenty of people with crappy small businesses that will never get off the ground -- I'm not sure how they could be interesting. Personally, I wouldn't even attach the word "interesting" to one's career choice -- what you do outside of work is really what defines you.
However, don't go over-inflating the worth of an MBA beyond its earning power.
And don't go listening to stereotypes. They're usually wrong.
1. You get to meet and work with people who are pretty clear about what they want.
I do that now. Why do I need graduate school for this?
2. The rest of the world suddenly takes you more seriously.
I just negotiated and won approval for a $600k project. The people I care about already take me seriously.
3. You can use graduate school as an ideal environment for beginning work on a startup.
Or you can spend some time working for startups and parter on the next project with people who have experience and credentials starting a company, not just wild ideas.
4. You can use graduate school as a pivot to change your career.
If it took you that long to figure out you picked the wrong career.
5. You get to pick your choice of work and your work hours.
I do that now.
6. You can get involved in projects that can actually impact the real world.
You can do that in the work force and be well paid for it.
7. You can get involved in projects that have absolutely no impact on the real world. You can work on things simply because they're interesting and fun. You often get paid to do this.
And then you can become a professor/researcher at the school and continue to get paid piddling amounts for someone with your talents. Which might be okay if you had free choice in what you wanted to investigate, but you don't have free choice. You have to write proposals and sell your ideas to various committees and sponsors and fight your way through some vicious office politics on the way. So in the end you don't work on what you want to, but instead settle for what you can get approved.
8. You can do things that you missed out on in your undergraduate school. It's a second chance.
If you need a second chance. But if grad students are folks who needed a second chance to get it right, what does that say about their abilities?
9. If you're good at what you do, you can count on being invited to travel around the world to conferences and seminars.
If you like public speaking. Personally, I'm an introvert.
10. You get to be the TA this time around.
Because I always wanted to be the guy who got paid piddling amounts of money to do a lousy job of teaching students, all of whom clearly understand that I'm doing a lousy job.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
If you had received a quality education, you could have figured out what was wrong with that statement.
While the Taulbee Survey has very reliable information, it polls only CS departments which grant PhD degrees. CS faculty who teach at four-year colleges and universities, who spend more time teaching and less time bringing in their body weight in gold grant monies, earn substantially less than Taulbee numbers.
Better to
I do. Every word.
Every person that I've ever met that has taken an MBA (only 80-120 people, so a small dataset) has done it for one of two reasons:
1. To make lots and lots of money
2. To advance in their career (not to do more interesting things, just to move up the ladder).
And I don't fault them for it one bit. It is very true that adding the letters M, B and A to the end of your business card will increase your odds of a high salary tremendously.
Also, there are some positions (typically top tier business positions) that are far to difficult to work your way up to without an MBA -- it's not that you can't, it's just that it's much easier to do if you have the training, and the prestige that comes with the designation. As far as reasons for moving up the ladder? Let's be honest, jab satisfaction is a huge part -- but so is compensation.
You raise a great point. Let me use myself as a real-world example.
I dropped out of H.S. and got a job at age 16. It was 1996, and the job market was very forgiving. I was able to enter a major corporation and slide up a few rungs before anyone even noticed my lack of schoolin'. I had virtually no debt, and thus, every paycheck was putting me further and further into the black.
Cue 2002: suddenly I was under-educated for my own job, and so, went $30,000 in debt to afford a college education. However, I really wanted to make something of myself so I lived plunged in with both feet. I started a small retail company to pay the bills, and was able to get my 4-years done in about 3.
Now in 2006 I have been out of school for a bit more than a year, and most job offers I see are for LESS than my 1998, HS dropout pay. The irony is, I learned far more running my own buisness than I did in school. As a result, I'm in no hurry to return to my cube. Of course, I might prefer the stability of a "real job", but not at these current wages being offered.
I'm not "unwilling" to work, I'm unwilling to work for less than I am worth. And I am no hater of capatalism; thanks to the glory of capatalism I made more money day-trading yesterday than I did freelancing.
barack to the future?
And I was paid roughly the same in my first job after my bachelor's degree ten years ago... Except I was paid on salary, not part time, and I got paid vacation and benefits to too. And it was ten years ago.
As for how well you teach your students, it sounds like you're on track to become a professor. If that's your goal then you're doing the right thing and you shouldn't let me dissuade you. Teaching was not among my goals.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
Think about it. You want people to spend 4 years in college, than an additional what 2 or 4 years for something thats NOT Law or Medicine? And why? Just because you can't find the job you want with an undergrad degree? Why are other people with undergrad degrees able to find good jobs then? What makes them better at it than you? I think its absolutely gonzo nutjobbish to suggest that having an undergrad degree isn't enough. There are folks out there without any degrees at all who are making it so anyone with an undergrad ought to be able to do just about anything they want. Getting a graduate degree should be something you do because you want to not because you feel you have to. Personally I would be damn near suicidal if I knew I went to school until I was 25-28 just to become a slightly higher paid WORKER. All that time in school post college (or post high school) could have been spent founding and building your own company.
Also what if the gamble fails. What if grad school doesn't lead to a better career. How are you supposed to shoulder the costs of college + grad school loans then? Bankruptcy laws were recently changed to forbid people from shedding their educational loans paybacks.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Here's the real scoop on degrees. Currently about 29% of adults in America over 25 years of age hold a baccalaureate, but only 6% hold an advanced degree. Compare, and contrast this to the situation 45 years ago. "By 1960, 42 percent of males, 25 years old and over, still had completed no more than the eighth grade, but 40 percent had completed high school and 10 percent had completed 4 years of college"-- http://nces.ed.gov/NAAL/index.asp?file=OtherResour ces/ResourcePublications.asp&PageId=146
So today the percentage of adult Americans that hold a baccalaureate is about 29%, whereas in 1960 it was 10%. IOTW, today about 1 in 3 adult americans holds a baccalaureate, but in 1960 less than 1 in 10 did. (Note that the 1960 statistics were for men, whereas the figures for today are for both men and women.) It is reasonable to assume then that in 1960 the percentage of adult American that held a baccalaureate was comparable to the percentage of adult Americans that hold and advanced degree today.
As for H.S. diplomas given that only about 40% of adult males held H.S. diplomas in 1960 then it would be reasonable hold that the percentage of adult Americans that hold a baccalaureate today is at least roughly equivalent to the percentage of adult American that held H.S. diplomas in 1960.
"Oh drat these computers, they're so naughty and so complex, I could pinch them." --Marvin the Martian
I'm doing a PhD in Engineering and have a family, my wife is also doing her PhD in Engineering, and we have a three year old and three months old... and oh yeah, forgot about my full time job :) and somehow still able to read slashdot.
:)
I'm not going to lie and say it is easy, or even manageable... it is freaking hard... but it boils down to this: if you love what you do, you don't mind sacrificing other things for it, including sleep. But you have to prioritize.
If you think of going back to school the same way I think about visiting my dentist (too many root canals), DON'T DO IT! need I say more!
On the other hand, if you truly enjoy what you do at school, you'll love it and gladly give up other stuff for it. AGAIN you need to get your priorities straight: Family 1st, Work 2nd, School somewhere in there, and lastly Sleep. Sometimes I get it all mixed up, but I try my best, and keep on telling my self it will eventually be over. And guess what... it is almost over
I started a humanities Ph.D. program after two years working for a government law office. I've spoken with many graduate students, law students, and lawyers who took time off between college and graduate school. None of them regretted taking time between college and grad school. Many of the lawyers and law students I know who went straight to law school wish they had worked first.
Some reasons to work before graduate school: