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Computer Job w/ No Computer Degree?
Peterus7 asks: "I posted here a few years back, complaining that I couldn't code worth beans, but I wanted to get into computer science. Well, I'm back- with a psychology degree. However, I hear there's still hope since a lot of system admins and the like have liberal arts degrees. In the mean time, I've been working as a Macintosh digital media tutor, freelance tech support, and an assistant system admin at the campus library. Now that I've graduated, I want to find a job that will accept someone who knows a fair amount about computers, but is pretty much self-taught. Where should I start? Are there any classes I should take?"
I started as a computer science major and ended up with a degree in Human Communication though with my background of computer knowledge I was able to get a job doing tech support for a small dot com. Fast forward 2 years and I was able to move up in the company, currently working as a technical project manager and part-time DBA.
All it really takes is a foot in the door...once you have that it's a matter of working inside the company where you have something to offer. If it's a good company then your skills will be recognized and rewarded.. If its not such a great company you'll end up doing your job and someone else's, that's where having a good manager will make all the difference.
Just my $0.02
I once worked in the IT department of a major multinational. Major. One of the managers in charge of software development was, as far as I could gather, quite proud of the fact that they could not program anything, not even a SQL statement, to save their life.
The manager was regarded as one of the best in the department. Major.
There's hope for you yet.
May the Maths Be with you!
I reviewed your original submission, and I gotta say that being a sysadmin is not for you. Well, maybe Windows, but in general a sysadmin has to be extremely good at problem solving. If you couldn't get into Java then you're gonna be banging your head against the wall on a daily basis with the kind of problems sysadmins face. No, they don't necessarily write any code, but the analytical skills required to learn to program are the same as debugging complex interactions between software.
Being self-taught really has nothing to do with it. There are people that never took a single class but were able to pick up programming form a few simple tutorials and a language reference. Likewise, some people take the Intro to Programming class several times and simply fail to ever grasp the abstract nature of code. A computer science degree is valuable because of the ideas it exposes you to, and because employers may value it, but it doesn't really say much about your ability as a computer professional.
My advice would be to look for a job centered around specific applications. Something concrete with good documentation that you learn to perfection. Another possibility is building or repairing computers. It sounds like you've already been doing quite a bit, so you probably have an idea of what you enjoyed and what you didn't. The next step is to simply apply for some jobs and see what pans out.
You can start whatever you feel you like. Don't ask me what you need to do. :) You need to know that on your own.
But I think that with a psychology background you can go into stuff like:
- user/computer interaction - UI design, translations, documentation, implementation, quality control etc.
- new media (i.e. Internet) marketing
I think these are quite interesting areas. But of course you can do anything you wish and feel like doing.
I started a CS degree and quit about 9 credit hours into it. I suck at math, but I've been programming since I was 12. I've had about 4 jobs doing computer/sysadmin work (two of them at large colleges), have programmed freelance for some time, and I'm now writing a book for Manning Publications on programming (along with a self-published book also).
All while getting a degree in Theology. :)
Don't fret about the degree; you just need the skills and mindset to do it.
[ check out my ruby book @ http://ww
Want to design web sites? You won't believe how many artists and companies want web sites. Make some. Do them for friends and relatives. Make them nice, make them do neat things. Now you've got a portfolio. Look for companies wanting web sites and sell yourself. Make a business out of it.
If you work for yourself (web sites, tech support, whatever) then the hiring manager won't care you don't have a degree. Work your way up and prove you can do what you say and you can get jobs.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
Being largely self taught isn't going to work in your favour. I can deploy Exchange 2003 to a corporate network, but not in the most efficient way. A decent deployment can be painfully complicated.
This goes for all software, knowing how to do it from picking around on tutorials on the internet is going to get the job done, but not in the same way as somebody who has got the Exchange certification. My advice to you is to go to your local Microsoft certifier and get some basic sysadmin certification at the very least, and then move on to *nix.
I'll subscribe to Slashdot when I see a month without a dupe, a typo, or an article the "editors" didn't read.
Without the skills on paper (relevant coursework, certifications, similar work experience), you're at a severe disadvantage at the resume stage. People are going to spend their time with the people who say they can do it and have something to back it up before they spend their time looking at people who only say they can do something.
You're going to have to meet people and get yourself promoted almost exclusively by word of mouth. Even then it's going to be an uphill battle, because there's always going to be somebody more qualified who's going to get one of the precious interview slots before you. Then you have to be absolutely sure you know what you're doing in the interview, because while somebody who has experience or other qualifications that they can point to may be granted a little bit of slack if they can't do something right off the top of their head (as long as they know, procedurally, what's going on), without anything like that, you have nothing to point to other than your word that you actually do have some kind of background in it.
It's not impossible by any means, but you have it a lot harder than anybody else out there, and you're probably going to be looking for a long time before you find that job you want. And when you do, you're likely going to be hired on the recomendation of one of the people you know in one of your placeholder jobs.
Macintosh digital media tutor
Not much hope here, I'm afraid. Why not try canine psychology, instead?
Honestly though, I don't know. I'm actually in a similar position: I'm a year away from a non-CS degree, but I'd like my future work to be computer-related. I doubt tech support is something you're exited about, I myself certainly am not. I think it would be possible to get a job as an entry level programmer (I have experience in several languages, dunno about you), but getting beyond the code monkey status won't be easy.
I'm doing the same thing, except without a college degree of any sort.
I started as Tech Support for a small software company, who plucked me out of the retail/admin assistant ether, and I got that because I put together a resume they really liked with my writing skills. (First hobby is writing, computers is my second). I highlighted my enthusiasm for computers, presented myself in a groovy way, and got hired. Once I was in, the small company environment forced me to wear several hats and pick up new things, which gave me the experience that I could put on my resume, which is the most valuable thing to have. From there on you just keep teaching yourself and observing things and finding opportunites that will be good for you--lots of job postings say they will let you substitute X amount of years in lieu of a CS degree. Eventually if you never stop learning you can climb somewhere. The key though is getting your foot in the door, and a desire to keep on learning things that will help you get wherever you want to go in the industry.
Oh, and certificates are good. Lots of places want certificates at the very least even if you don't have a CS-related degree. It's hard to get them to consider you without the certificates (I know, I don't have any).
Ever since, I worked in IT, my experience being more meaningful than degrees.
Go grab VMWare, and set yourself up a virtual network. Try network based installs for RedHat, and Solaris x86 for starters. I mention these becuase while they can become very complex, they're relatively easy to set up and get the basics working.
Set up DNS, mail, ftp, ssh on your virtual machines and automate copying files between them.
If you can take the time to get all that set up and working, you'll probably someday make a decent sysadmin, because at least you can follow directions.
If not, stick to shrinking heads.
High school graduate, BTW, and the senior Linux, Solaris, and *spit* SCO *spit* guy where I work.
I went to a technical school and got a dgree in Network and Internet Technology. We learned network methods and each mod class we could get certified in that field. We started with A+ and went to NT (back then it was NT now I'm sure you'd learn XP/2003) and we had a Novell and Linux classes. We didn't have a coding class. The linux course touched on Bash and Perl like it rightly should. Maybe you could look into that.
That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
Rule number one is to never apologize for not having a Comp Sci degree in an interview.
(Rule number two is that you don't want to work anywhere that strictly requires it)
I have a Liberals Arts degree and I'm a completely self-taught, working Java developer. The only thing I did do to help my job search was get a Sun Certified Java Programmer certification. Almost no experienced developers give any merit to the thing, but during my job search it was useful to "prove" to the skeptical that I really do know Java.
... a fellow named Dell who did OK without a degree. Depends on whom you ask, of course.
Since from what I know of liberal arts majors, you likely have better writing skills than true computer science graduates. While jumping from pyschology to comp sci would be rough, but your writing ability is a gem. Use it.
You want to do computers, but got a psychology major? That's not going to impress a lot of employers if you go looking for a job in IT or programming. Did you at least get a minor in computer science? That would help a lot.
If you're looking to put your psychology degree to work, but still want to deal with computers, you might want to look into something like computer security. For all the hacking attempts made daily, the best way to get access to a machine is through social engineering. You could study how crackers get useful information such as birthdates and the names of kids out of people and use those to figure out passwords, using that information to set up company policies and train employees about secure passwords. Work for some big Fortune 500 company, or set up a consulting business that goes company to company testing social engineering holes and giving training courses.
Aside from that, unless you have some big computer accomplishments (writing a stable program that is used by a good number of people, open source or otherwise), some technical background likely won't be enough to get you into a big gig. Maybe working IT for a school district or library, or for a starting company, but not much else.
Posting anonymously for obvious reasons. But it all boils down to how well you sell yourself, how well you learn under fire, how well you can adapt, and most importantly who you know. I dropped out of high school (early nineties) my Senior year of high school and moved to the closest metro city. Three months later, at age 18, I was making $35/hour as a jack of all trades systems administrator. A year later I had been jacked up to Senior Network Analyst and was pulling in $60k. Two years later I was a systems administrator for a Fortune 100 company with full benefits. Now, only a decade later, I'm pulling in six figures between my systems administration position at my day job and the freelance projects I'm doing on the side.
;)
Standard headhunters and sites like Monster.com and CareerBuilder.com proved to be utterly useless and every position I've held since entering the professional workforce has been a referral from a close friend or colleague that got me an in with the company and allowed me to bypass conventional hiring channels. This is the most important thing to remember -- managers hire internally first, take referrals second, and then read external resumes; if another employee highly recommends you then you'll be first in line in the interview process.
Keep track of every professional contact you've ever made. I have two or three hundred page binders to keep business cards in chronological order of each professional contact I've made. Each page holds 16 cards and I write details of the conversation or relationship with each person on the back of each card. My brain works on mnemonics so scanning/inputting each contact's info doesn't work for me; I remember each contact based on where in each binder their business card is and which business cards surround it on the page. So I can say, "yeah, that security guy I met in the bar at PumpCon 1996 was red and was in the binder right after the blue graphic designer's card, I think I'll give him a call".
So yeah, don't know if this braindump is any help to you, but there is hope out there for degreeless geeks.
I've been a sysadmin for 12 years now without a degree and I'm doing fine. I've worked (and work now) at some of the biggest companies in the world and the subject almost never comes up.
The few companies that have turned me away because of it were companies you've never heard of because they were small and didn't survive long enough to get big.
I currently do technical support research for a really big well known software company - it pays really well and the benefiets are quite good, but in the process I had to do some really crappy jobs along the way. One of the hardest was front line technical support, but without it I wouldn't have gained the respect to get the job I have now. I think I have a knack for solving problems :).
Along the way I've tried picking up programming - I'm learning, but its a long and slow process. I'm sure actual classes in school would help quite a bit.
Careers for Computer Buffs and Other Technological Types, 3rd edition
I feel the need to remind you all that computer scientists do not study computers. Computer scientists study computation. There are plenty of computer jobs available to people without degrees, including programming positions (get your feet wet with open source), but more commonly system administration positions.
I work with a guy who has a Masters Degree, I have no qualifications other than a few GCSEs (high school) and yet I'm earning more than he is and I'm 12 years younger than him. So to me it seems a degree is worthless.
In 1993, I dropped out of college because the comp sci curriculum was horseshit, heavy on chemistry and physics that I would never need. I returned to my co-op job for a while, selling computers and providing some support in the computer department of the bookstore at another local university. I got very good at troubleshooting Macs. In 1996 I ended up at MacTemps (now known as Aquent). Through them I worked a couple brief Mac support jobs followed by a longer one which led to a permanent position in late 1998. After just over two years at that company, I left for my current job in early 2001. I'm currently making $60K+, and I have been increasingly in demand due to the Mac resurgence.
I think you're in better shape than I am, since you actually have a college degree. Try going to a temp agency and have them place you in some short-term temp gigs. It helped me build my experience and flesh out my list of references. Between an experience-filled resume and a few people willing to sing your praises, you should be able to land yourself in a good permanent position.
Since you have a psychology degree, you might want to consider going into a graduate program in Human Factors or in Human-Computer interaction.
The program at New Mexico Tech is pretty good.
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
You may want to follow the path I am borrowing.
After I graduated, I spend almost a year studying CS in college, and dropped. I didn't know what to do so I looked for crappy jobs, and eventually I heard about a french thing call a professionalisation contract.
The principle is the following, during 18 months, you spend one week a month at some kind of school (although it's for adults) studying system administration and the rest of the time you learn while working as a sysadmin in an enterprise, and you're paid 65% (or 85%, if you're over 21) of the normal salary (which brings you about 700-800 a month, without any taxes on it iirc).
After the 18 months, not only did you have a job, although not so well paid, but you are also One True SysAdmin(TM)
You just got troll'd!
If you want a job (in any case) you should know how to communicate what your specialisation in the field is, what you have to offer (skills) and what your ambitions are. This is still very unclear to me now. If you want to sollicitate, you should know in what kind of company want to work, proof you have some understanding of their business and language and how to sell yourself.
Computer Science and related jobs are very diverse. So:
1. Set a direction.
2. Specify personal goals. (for example I want to learn Object Oriented Programming)
3. Score those goals.
Repeat those 3 steps until you have found your field of interest, have become knowledgable about it, know your strength and know your ambition. Unless your very lucky, this will take considerable time.
I have had some advanced education and titles: Master of Arts in European Media and Bachelor of Art & Technology with Honours in Interaction Design. My education was how to design fun, useful and usable software. This study was very human and art centered, not so much technical. While studying I had plenty of time to find out I was a selfthought developer. Because I felt I had still have to learn so much I have always set goals to myself. At first I have loved every area in computer science. So if you're in a hurry, isolate quickly what you like to do and stick to it. Don't lose focus, because regaining it takes a lot of your time.
I have sold myself to a midsize company where they didn't heard of my profession. This is only possible if you really know what you have to offer, what your strengths and ambitions are. Make up for yourself what direction to take. It doesn't make any sence to ask others for a direction. In the computer science world everything starts with making your hands dirty, design, code, etc. Ít's nice to be a puppy in Computer Science an jump from one to another. It's doesn't get you anywhere quickly though.
What made you think that there is anything close to an industry wide default requirement for any degree, and that it's not based instead on social networking and directly demonstrated proof of competency like virtually every other industry? Did you believe something that your college advisors or some statistic told you? Why?
I was a psychology major in college and now I work as a successful database administrator.
It takes a lot of hard work and a little bit of luck. I'm at the point in my career where I'm rarely asked "what is your degree in?" when I'm at an interview. And when I answer it's rarely been an issue. However I had to take low level jobs for a few years and prove myself. What you need to find is an organization that loves to promote from within. If you want to continue doing sysadmin or system engineer work I'd recommend finding a low-level position (computer engineer is probably a decent shot) and work your way up. Once you've got some experience you can bank on that to further your career rather than any education.
In the meantime, take any education opportunity you have. Self-study for certifications if you can. Also remember that many people with "formal" educations aren't very effective engineers. It's not necessarily a reliable predictor of a technically compitent employee.
Kneel before Sig!
I'm halfway through college, dont even have a diploma. In college I was actually doing physics since I loved it more.
But here comes real life, and I had to pay rent etc. So the first year I just worked gas stations and other odd jobs. I tried to get into IT jobs but its tough with no paperwork and if you dont know people. I went to an agency told em I can do anything computers. They were a temp agency and computers werent their main thing, but they staffed receptionists etc so they took typing speed tests and filing tests. I was given a one week stint at a place where they needed text replaced in lotus word pro files. Speed wasnt an issue, accuracy was. So the first 3 days there I just programmed up a perl script (Activestate) that did the job for all the files in 5 minutes. I know it doesnt take 3 days, but the first two I had to do things manually to show I was doing SOMETHING.
They put on more work extended to another week and I became friends with the IT guy. I started giving him advice. He started giving me enough work to keep me around. The mgmt didnt like him so they fired him and took me on a contract for 6 months and a raise. 6 months and another Netadmin later I was given a fulltime job and another raise. The other admin didnt last either. The third admin was good and I learned some stuff there (soft skills and the like). 3 years in that company and the economy got bad. They asked me to leave. So I started looking around and discovered the business software I used there had a far greater market value than the fact that I could make changes in a Linux kernel, program up basic drivers and make a gcc toolchain to put uclinux on an ARM board. My CCNP wasnt worth that much either.
I just one day got a call from a boss that had left the company to work in his new company (networking!!! not the computer type). So I moved and got another raise and a real title. Apparently theyre happy with me and I can bargain for another sizeable raise in a year. Theyve been relying on consultants and I'm already really cheap. But like the last company I'm taking more work on, things that are in the grey area between IT and nonIT things. And I know how to do them since I've done them in the last place. I'll do college part time till I complete the degree, and that should be another raise, clearly above the average of degree-holder netadmins around. I will also have a great bargaining tool to look around for work (experience + degree + certs + networking + business apps expertise). Thus I can maintain a job I like (and leave quick if I dont like it).
So I dont really have an answer for you, getting IN is difficult and sometimes impossible without prior experience or a degree. I suggest get some experience anywhere, and some basic certs to get you started. In the beginning expect to eat some dirt. Another alternative is to get back to college and get an IT dipmola. I'd get a degree even if I already had a non-IT degree now, just so I could chase the better dollars.
At my workplace, I have met IT people who didn't even have degrees related to computers. There's a Sr. QA guy who majored in biochemistry. Some didn't even go to college!
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
If your degree is not computer related but you want a tech job you will probably have to build your resume from the bottom up. Most companies want a tech related position to be held by someone with a technical based degree OR...wait for it...lots of experience in the field. Many of us don't have a degree at all but have worked our way up through the ranks. The position we apply for may say a degree is required but the job is available to those of us without any degree because of our prior experience. Helpdesk to desktop support, to applications support, to programming or network admin, to developer or network engineer is the route many go through to get one of the really cool jobs where you can play with the big boy toys. Even with a CS degree you still have to pay your dues. Most folks with CS degrees can't walk into a high level support, research, development, or management position after graduation without some solid relevant work experience on their resume. You may have to start a lot lower than you like and work your way up.
I reserve the right to think for myself. Others' opinions are optional. Puppy on lap = typos...not illiteracy.
Don't get me wrong, a degree doesn't hurt, but if a company is looking for someone to deal with Redhat, VMWare, Microsoft, or any other specific software solution they're going to be looking for someone with previous experience and a certification with the product in question. I've seen people hired on the bases of having a certification alone (although the job in question didn't even use the product) due to licensing breaks given by vendors.
If you're looking for a job in programming without a degree in the field, you need experience. The more the better, although that should be obvious.
"Powers. I have them."
I took 3 years of CS classes, dropped out, with disgust and contempt for the department I might add. Later I returned to finish college, this time as a history major. I swore I'd never take another CS class as long as I lived, and settled for the minor. I've currently got about 20 hours left for the BA. Which will take forever, since I work full time as a Network Admin, and I love my job far more than I ever loved college. I still maintain that all college did for me was network me with some great friends, the degree has become a matter of pride for me, and little else.
So, I have no credentials to speak of, other than a self built business, mostly consulting work, and a load of time spent learning anything that sparked my interest, and certifcations are a waste of money IMHO. But I can code, a good admin has to be able to write, read, and alter code. A good admin has to be able to make programs accross the network work together, and shoe horn stuff together when need be, all while keeping the whole thing secure and stable. You might find yourself reading C one day, figureing out why the billing system suspends accounts for 24 hours after successfully proccessing credit cards, if the credit card was ran on the last day before the account would have gone deliquent(true story), and the nexy day, you are manually patching a hacked phpBB because the owner customized so much of it that you can't just upgrade their forum....
I tend to ramble, but my point is, you won't make it very high up the ladder in the CS/CE world without the ability to code, it is a fundemental skill.
--Nuintari
slashdot : where an opinion can be wrong.
Awesome and inspirational post, man. I wish I had mod points.
vi ~/.emacs # I'm probably going to Hell for this.
I don't have more then a half dozen courses of post secondary education( I know the stuff, or can learn it, just not in the normal post secondary environments - and found that I don't need to).
I also have over 6 years of experience, working my way up the chain of tech support. I'm now a server admin and general troubleshooter for an organization that supports over 3000 desktops, 150 servers from Vancouver to Angola, with 9 techs.
I didn't get the job for my education, I got it for my experience. The 4 years that I put in while most people were in college have earned me a larger pay increase on average then the techs I know(both in and out of my organization) have earned from 4 years in college.
I know someone is going to say, it will matter in the future - years down the road they will make more then me. But 6 years ago, I was told that after 4 years I would be making less. Don't buy it just because they say so.
Besides, the work is rewarding and I enjoy it, so I don't really care at this point.
On Arrakis: early worm gets the bird. Magister mundi sum!
Just kidding. :)
You want a computer job, but weren't willing to put in the time it took to learn computer science? Hmmm.... sounds to me like you'll want a TECHNICAL job working with computers, not a COMPUTER SCIENCE job. You'll be PROGRAMMING, not writing new languauges. You'll be using other people's research, not doing research yourself. THAT's the difference. Anyone else think that way? Other ideas?
... or maybe it's because I graduated after the big crash. Or probably some of both, and some environmental factors (massive IBM layoffs in the area and no social network at all), but even with a CS degree it took me years to get into a computer-related job. Every opportunity I could find wanted degree plus several years experience, most wouldn't even bother to call me back.
Any anecdotes from anyone else who didn't get started when everyone and their dog could get hired by a dot-com startup?
--
perl -e'$_=shift;die eval' '"$^X $0\047\$_=shift;die eval\047 \047$_\047"' at -e line 1.
I've worked with CS degreed folks as well as no-degree and liberal arts degree, etc. These degrees help to get your foot in the door and give solid footing. But your drive and ability to learn and apply new technology is far more important in the long run. The successful people in the IT field that I know are constantly learning and have an interest in the field beyond salaries, titles, etc. For example, one guy I know learned AS400 RPG in the 90's and refuses to learn newer technologies - his career is on a death spiral, low raises, less companies using obsolete platform, decreasing vendor pool, IBM rep tries to sell him AIX/Linux!, it goes on and on. My advice is to get in the field, pay your dues, learn all that you can, never resting on what you did in the past (like a CS degree, RPG, NT 4, .ASP, whatever). The future is coming every day.
I've been in the computer industry for 20 years. I've worked on embedded systems, mainframes, and many things in between. I've been called a programmer, system administrator, manager of information systems, network architecht, and consultant. I've worked for a wide range of companies, done a lot of consulting, been courted by headhunters. I now work as a professor teaching computer programming and system administration; my first computer book is about to be published, and another is in the works.
I have no degree in any computer-related field, so I think I can speak to this topic!
Working in this industry without a degree requires the same creativity and committment that working with a degree requires -- but in slightly larger quantities.
You're selling your clients knowledge and skill. These come through practical hands-on experience and the consumption of a lot of information. With or without a degree, anyone who is going to be successful in this industry needs hands-on, dirt-under-the-fingernails experience with a wide range of technology, and should be reading a minimum of 15 hours a week to stay current. (If you have a degree and you're not putting that type of effort into staying current, well, I won't be hiring you).
Some practical suggestions--
- Find an established but small company that's willing to take a risk on you. In a small company, you're more likely to be exposed to a variety of technologies and work in a variety of roles so you can learn lots (and see what you enjoy).
- Consider consulting as a second step. (Tip: set your hourly rate higher rather than lower. Assuming you know your stuff, your clients will treat you with more respect -- double the billing rate and you'll have a lot less crap to deal with).
- Stay flexible, experiment a lot (either at work or home or both), and read a lot. If a new technology comes up in discussion, and you can speak knowledgably about it with management or clients while your colleagues are scratching their heads, the degree issue becomes moot.
- Don't apologize for your lack of computer degree. Don't even bring it up unless directly asked. Focus on your accomplishments.
Sorry about the subject...I just always wanted to say that :o)
I started life as a Registered Nurse, USNavy paid for it, then I went to Mecdical School...THAT DOCTOR STUFF SUCKS!! Sooo...Flash forward 20 years, now I am a manager of Information Security at a small but large financial institution. I have NO degree whatsoever in IT, don't plan on getting one either. I learned most things on my own, but have taken lots of training classes on the way, such as Cisco, MS, Linux, UNIX, etc. I have lots of certs, including MCSE, CNE, CISSP, etc. Truthfully, in IT that is what matters. Good luck to you, if you really want to be an IT guy, you can do it, IF you have the apptitude.
----- I have bad karma for a reason! -----
However, where you can possibly go fairly far is in AI research, robotics, and automation. HCI (Human Computer Interaction) is probably another place where you could do well. Having a Psyc degree will actually get you in the door in those fields. Maybe add a technical minor in CS or even a few certifications in different languages (C++ at a minimum and LISP if you really want to get a job). I will warn you about LISP, if you hated math, well, to an extent, you will hate LISP. It is litterally built on the mathematical structure that makes programming possible in the first place (lambda calculus). The reason for its great popularity in AI work is due to the fact that it can actually alter and generate its own programming code on the fly, something that C++ and many other languages can not do (that need to be recompiled to create totally new instructions not already contained within their origional code). Again, this is an area that frequently hires many psycologists due to their training in understanding behavior and knowledge of the human brain and its workings as this is the defacto standard of what we consider intelligence.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
I worked 25 years as a Systems Programmer and Software Engineer before I finished my B.S. in Computer Science. Experience and allways having a job when you look for another job are the keys to working in the software field.
at bigger companies, at least.
Most of the larger corporations will have salary bands, and where you end up (i.e., the gross salary they offer) is a function of variables such as the type of job, years experience, difficulty recruiting and EDUCATION.
So at a larger corporation, you may end up at the lower end of a salary band, doing the same job (and perhaps better work) as your peers but for less pay. It's just the way bigger companies are run; standardised as much as possible across the board.
Smaller companies will have the flexibility to pay you what you're worth.
In the end you'll have to make a choice between big companies or small companies, with the benefits & liabilities associated with each.
I was a degreeless hacker working for some of the larger companies, so I've seen it from both perspectives. When you are doing the work but don't have a degree so you're paid less it sucks!
I've since taken one Masters, and I'm completing an MBA, so now I'm seeing it from a completely new perspective - I'm amazed at how much money they are willing to toss at me.
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You sound like a clever guy. I sympathise with your plight of having the skills but not the qualifications. I couldnt get a job as a coder on the basis that I had no CS degree and no 'commercial experience' despite having written several small apps quite easily, and sailing through all the 'aptitude tests' people would set. I had to get a bottom-rung IT support job, despite being a fluent C++ coder.
Most employers have a brick wall when it comes to self-taught people, so why play them at their own game? Why not ramp-up your freelancing work and avoid the gruelling stagnation of a regular job altogether? I work for myself, make more than I did in my last 'real' job, and have total control and freedom. I wouldnt trade it in for a 9-5 slog for double the money.
DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
It's not impossible to do, but it does take a lot of hard work. First, learn everything that you can about what you want to do, and expect to start low on the totem pole. If you lack a degree or certification, then resume experience (or having good contacts) will be your only hope. I got started professionally in IT in the years just before Y2K, so everyone was always hiring, and I got a job as a PC Technician through a "consulting" company that did staff augmentation. After a couple of years and numerous assignments I was able to demonstrate competency and a wide range of technical knowledge, and began getting placements as a junior-level server admin. I continued working and learning, yadda yadda yadda, until I started getting more senior-level jobs (like as a consultant on large Exchange migrations, etc). If you work hard and learn everything that you can, you will continue building useful resume experience. Working at numerous jobs via consulting companies really helps here. If you keep at it you'll eventually be able to get that cool sysadmin job that you want. I've worked for organizations ranging from small nonprofits to Fortune 50 companies. At the moment I'm the senior engineer for a small company with an IT staff of eight people and make about $75k (in central Ohio). Granted, that's not riches beyond your wildest dreams, but for someone with no degree and no certifications who was largely self-taught that's pretty good.
If your goal is to get into development or some other more specialized area, then the barrier to entry is much higher. You might want to consider working on some OSS pojects to build experience and get your name out there. What I have found in life is that degrees and certs really only demonstrate a basic level of training and competence. Once you have the degree/cert, you still are fairly useless until you have accumulated some experience working in the real world. Some people are able to accumulate the experience without the degree, and as long as they can get past pre-screening for a job (where HR usually weeds out people who don't meet the paper requirements) then they can usually do quite well. That's why consulting companies are a good place to work, as their customers rarely ask to see anything other than experience. But if you have neither experience nor a degree/certs, prepare to start at the bottom and work your way up. Usually it's faster just to get the degree.
I was hired on more than one occasion on the strength of being self-taught, over degree-qualified competition. Having worked with several graduates, I fail to see what they were taught, anyway. None of them were able to code commercially, and quite frankly should have gone into something else. When it comes to programming, you either have it or you don't.
Getting hired - well, start a project and flash tme your code. That's what I did, and the resultsw were impressive.
When you have no degree, and no significant recent job experience, you need a pimp. Know your shit well enough to completely smoke at least 2 or 3 of their skill assessment tests in the time an average applicant spends on one, then they scramble to find you jobs. Try and take the ones that have an option to hire at end of contract term, by the end of the contract you will know if you want to keep working there. As far as I can tell, the salary range bump for having a degree does not usually take into consideration the relevance of the degree.
I've been working as a Macintosh digital media tutor ... I want to find a job that will accept someone who knows a fair amount about computers
... well - anything that isn't Photoshop.
So what you are saying is that you are a media studies tutor who thinks because he can use Photoshop that this somehow qualifies him to do
Using a Macintosh does not mean you know anything about computers the same as watching TV doesn't mean you know anything about broadcasting and electronics.
In fact you know what? Go for it - get a job as a sysadmin. Maybe then people like you might appreciate that actually, yes we do have to know what we are doing and maybe you will gain an insight into just how really, REALLY stupid users can be.
The job-related benefit of studying CS is that it teaches you how to learn computer-related topics more easily. So you can pick up how to install Sendmail, Postfix, Exchange 2003, or anything pretty quickly after reading the documentation or seeing someone else do it.
Some of my co-workers have degrees in East-Asian Studies, Chemical Engineering and Urban Studies. I'll agree that a Comp Sci gives you a head start on topics like algorithms and data structures, but it hardly has a monopoly on Skill Acquisition, Problem Solving or Critical Thinking.
IHBT HAND
Not at all. Again, look at the grandparent post - I was responding to an assertion that Comp Sci grads would have a leg up on Exchange 2003 installations because of the installation's "complicated" nature - I think we both agree that is hardly the case.
You could win big in the lottery, almost as easily.
I've *got* a BS in CIS, and my resume shows jobs back to '89 (I leave out the stuff before that, because it wasn't in Unix), and I've been looking for six months. "Oh, sorry, you don't have C+-script in Aunt, Commix, under Frunix 12.4, and 5 years of Orabase SQLiposuction (released four years ago), we've got no interest in you."
mark, software develper, Unix/Linux sysadmin, software configuration/build/release management"
Is your use of "Major" slang? Or is it the company you worked for?
A well-connected friend managed to find work close to home
in the Subj job. Being near home (& contacts) made it seem
OK, even if the job involved a good bit of "DP" work.
It can still be who yhou know as much as what, I guess...
So, maybe "network, network, network" is the best advice.
(This guy used to be involved in local cultural exhibits,
after doing informal, on-the-spot investigative research;
maybe his generalist nature also helped him land this job)
Or maybe the logic was: Hey, if you can understand Phil,
you can surely work your way through the "Greek" of com-
puter manuals for us.
Or maybe small, private, liberal universities liked hiring
Renaisance Men (ie, in the 20th Century - this is a dated
story).
Go figure...
lol!
I'm a high school drop-out with a 2-year liberal arts degree from a community college. But I am also a self-taught programmer since age 10. And I'm the Chief Technical Officer of a small but successful company. Two friends of mine started the company 10 years ago and I joined about 8 years ago when they decided to do everything online rather than via phone/fax. At the time I was the only tech guy in the company; now I'm in charge of the IT department.
Even before this job, my lack of a degree never hurt me. I just took the opportunities that presented themselves as they came up. In college I hung out in the computer labs a lot, which led to a job as a computer lab consultant. I also got hired as a contract programmer for one of the research groups at the school. Eventually I got a full-time position at a nearby university doing PC support, network administration, and other such things. By the time I got sick of the university office politics, I was offered the job I have now, and I took it.
In my opinion, the degree thing only really matters if you're trying to break into big business cold, without any connections or knowing anyone. I'm a pretty typical socially introverted geek type, but I still managed to have a few friends, know a few people, and use that to my advantage. If I can do it, anyone can.
I certainly hope that you mean you can't build a proper program in C++ with 100,000 lines of code or some such. Sysadmins need to code. They typically do it in higher-level languages like sh or perl, and their programs are typically less than 500 lines, but there's a million little things that need to be automated in a sysadmin's job. Office automation is the single most important application of sysadminning. It's why they pay us the big bucks (heh).
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
I have no degree what so ever and I'm currently the Sr System Admin. The path I choose which was not going and getting the little piece of paper saying I have allot of loans to pay off will take about the same amount of time if you did go to collage minus the student loans. What I did was to start at the bottom, front line phone tech support and yes it sucked but climbed the corporate ladder..trainer, manager etc... I did not spend the entire 4 years on the phones. I worked hard showed up and did my job to the best of my abilities and learned as much as I could, 4 years later I had my first Sys admin job.
I beat out allot people fresh out of collage w/ comp sci who have one cert such as a MCSE in the job market, I think the reasons being #1 my experience 8+ years #2 a couple more certs than most #3 not limiting my knowledge on one platform eg. I know Unix, Linux, Windows, Apple, and the big one Cisco!!!
So my advice? You got to start some place and it might as well be the bottom. Also starting out doing phone tech support will teach how to troubleshoot and use that gray stuff between your ears (common sense reasoning) something allot of people these days lack and they find it easier to pick up the phone and call tech support.
Very close, anyway...Mac experience, freelance tech support, crazy liberal arts degree (mine is in Theater!).
The best advice that I can offer is don't be proud about your first job. If I was starting out now, I'd find a place to do helpdesk for a decent-sized company with room for advancement. Even though my work-study job gave me 2 years of great computer support experience, I had a very difficult time getting my foot in the door for an interview. I ended up hired to do break/fix for a small support company. That was fine with me, because I figured I would learn on the job, and I did. Once you get in, if you are a competent problem-solver, you will do just fine.
Play to your strengths. My first company had a lot of advertising and marketing clients, so my Mac skills were a big plus there. If you're going to a sizable city, you should be able to find a niche on the Mac skills alone.
Finally, don't be ashamed of the psych degree! Figure out a way to make something that could be a weakness into a strength. I'm sure that you had classes that relied upon careful analysis of data; you'll use that in sysadmin jobs when you're trying to troubleshoot problems. Setting up psych experiments probably has some similarities to project management. When questioned about my degree, I cheerfully state that while I know what I'm doing technically, my people skills are even better.
Good luck!
CCJudging candidates by college degree is an obsolete practice from a bygone era where few people were truly educated. At some point, before I was born having a degree was apparently the key to wealth, health and success. Now days, nearly everyone goes to college, and the value of a degree is much lower than in the past. The most promising people learn what they want and go to work - just like the most tallented athletes leave school early for the pros.
If you don't have the right degree or don't have one there are four keys to getting the job:
1. Having a documented, verifiable portfolio of work that you've done. This allows you to shift the interview process away from your college inexperience to your in-trade experience. Often by switching from education to real-world early in interviews, the education issue won't even come up. Open source projects are wonderful for this - your teamwork (interaction in chats and mailing lists), code and leadership is easy to audit.
2. Hiring is human driven process. Learn to avoid gatekeepers paid to weed out people who don't fit the criteria given and communicate directly with decision makers.
3. Be a better human being than the others. Show up early. Dress appropriately (if casual, have it professionally cleaned and pressed). Call to confirm meetings. Send hand written thank you notes. Treat everyone, even the secretary at the front desk with respect and good humor. Write back to clarify bad interview answers.
4. Don't lie or try to spin your education. Simply answer only the precise question being asked. Often times the truth is more than adequate, and in many cases shows that you have character and can succeed in the face of adversity.
-- $G
YES. I started this way, with a Degree in English. Now I have 20 years experience -- and write about the industry as well as working in it. See http://www.infotechemployment.com/ Resources on why employers are hiring people without computer degrees, how to position yourself, tech and non-technical jobs, jobs that support the IT endeavor in the enterprise, more...
Many managers consider them so much toilet paper. I know I do. The reason behind that is that there are so many "certificate mills" around, which promise to teach you to pass the certificates, but end up not teaching you the basic knowledge the certificates are realing testing for.
I've heard this but I've also heard the opposite. I've been in schooling working on an AAAS, or whatever, degree in web programming as a first step. However because I found it difficult to retain what I learned in Java I during the 6 weeks or longer before Java II starts, when I'm working on Java I don't have a problem but I loose it fast when I don't use it, I was thinking about taking classes from one of those private schools that say they teach Java for certifications. I figured once I went through it I could take a test to testout of the classes, to show that I know what I was supposed to know. The college does this, I once took an advanced class without having taken the intro class. Then because the college required the credit from the intro class the following semester I signed up for it, and when the professor I had for the advanced class saw this he said I should testout of the class, that they give a test on what's taught in the class and if you pass it they give the credit.
However you don't think these classes are any good?
FalconShould there be a Law?
Computer professionals need to grow up and act like truly professional positions in other fields. That includes degrees that are relevant to the work at hand, testing and licensure.
None of these trends have really started whole-hog yet, and they may never if technology workers don't grow up.
There's a reason ROI is crap in computers -- computer "professionals" typically aren't as professional as they'd like you to believe, until they have pretty high-level jobs at very large organizations. Small companies "make due" with non-professional help, proving that computers don't save money -- they cost more money than they bring in. ESPECIALLY without a GOAL for the computer use and a DESIGN, things no professional would do for chump change.
Plenty of room in the low-end. Grab on and hope for the best, it's one of only seriously important industries left where you can. Any serious professional job would laugh you out of the office.
Engineer? Go pass the PE tests.
Doctor? We all know how difficult that is.
Lawyer? Yep them too.
Computer "Professional"? Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?
+++OK ATH
I was a Psychology major and ended up getting a job as a Field Tech at a hospital, because I knew a lot about how to fix computers. I was always more interested in the security side of computers and data, so I applied for a position in Information Security when one was available. I'm living proof that you can use a Psychology (or any college degree, really) degree to get into IT. Get established somewhere and be ambitious and you'll be able to thrive.
See http://www.infotechemployment.com/ See http://www.alice.org/ Experts say a revamping of the way the subject is taught is also needed. Toward that end, see a new approach to teaching programming. It features educational software known as "Alice" and uses a drag-and-drop method to teach object-oriented programming; it's available as a free download at www.alice.org. Once students learn the basics of object-oriented programming, it's easier for them to code it. A National Science Foundation study of at-risk students found that those who used Alice had a grade of B in first-level computer science, compared with a C for a control group. And 88% of those who started out with Alice moved on to second-level computer science, compared with only 47% of those who didn't use Alice. "We're highly optimistic," says the Randy Pausch, professor at Carnegie Mellon. "Reports from the field, especially from community colleges, are that the Alice approach is highly motivating for kids, and being motivated to do the work is a great reason to want to stay in a major."
http://www.infotechemployment.com/ has IT Jobs-IT Prospects: Companies-Contacts-Links Get Hired Now by Companies Winning New Business & Requiring New Staff Companies hiring in all 8 U.S. Regions - 8 REgional Editions Plus 2300 IT Staffing Firms.
I've only worked in small companies and in my experience, they tend to be flexible with new hires. The only caveat is that you have a buddy on the "inside" that can vouch for you. Then you're golden.
I got a buddy a job at one and am now pimping him to replace me after I leave my current position.
I seem to have broken them though. I was doing rather well on technical side of things. Well I stepped out for 6 years. And now I am have problems getting back in.
Bachlors of Fine Arts - my first technician job I worked with three other very smart geeks; one had a zoology degree, one a filmwriting degree, and another was working on a Poetry degree. Regardless, we've all made careers out of computers and love it. You'll need to start at the bottom (phone or desktop support) but it can be done and rewarding, I've loved it. Oh, and I can still paint on the side and even sell things here and there.
fak3r.com
Where I work, two of the best programmers we have do not have formal qualifications (ie degrees) yet alone CS degrees. They are excellent resources, really world class, but they came to us having established their track record and _real_ experience already so they could prove their worth the moment they hit the interview.
In my job, I hire people from time to time. When scanning dozens of resumes to find the dozen or so I will read carefully, no degree is almost a disqualifier. Why? Well mostly we hire young people, and if they cannot stick it out for three years to "achieve" a degree then that sets off all kinds of warning bells about their ability to work on a project that will take two years to complete (the way our business works) and that will have times where you just want to throw all the toys out of the pram.
Further, it takes something pretty special to make the list if there is not a good degree (CS, Financy, "first class honours", Mathematics etc) and unless the Psychology had something pretty specific in terms of cognitive modelling or NLP then it would not be enough to automatically survive the first cull.
What does that mean? Well it means find the something special to make your resume stand out. It is not the font or the colour of the paper but some aspect of the content that makes you different from all the other "non directly relevant" degree holders so you get into the second round of resume reading. I am not sure that any number of "non-degree" courses would help but it is more likely to catch my eye if it were something unusual like "Logic programming", "Haskell" or "Lisp" rather than "C# for recent graduates".
Just some thoughts that might help understand the mentality of the kind of person you at whom you are targetting your resume.
"The first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging."
If you still hold that Inro To Java was beyond you, give up.
You may not want to code, but being able to appreciate, interpret, and - occasionally - code is required to effectively run systems. And a defeatist attitude ("over the edge", your first post) isn't going to get you very far.
If you're over all of that, go buy a programing book, Essential System Administration, and any thing else that says 'puter on it, but omits the glossy pictures. Start reading. Start sending in your resume.
And expect to spend the next two years, at least, paying your dues with sh!t work, long hours, and learning a whole lot (Look for a position you can learn in, not just answer phones!)
I have been working in IT from about 1994. I have worked as a Unix admin, Win admin, Network admin, project manager, IT manager, telephone support, field tech, application support analyst, and a few other things I am sure I am forgetting. I even worked freelance with my own business for a while.
While one does not need a degree to do an IT job, a degree helps one get the job. Remember, chances are your resume' is going to be seen by HR first. HR generally makes out the job descriptions. If the job description says "BS or greater required" you probably won't hear back from them.
The good news is that often HR doesn't care WHAT kind of degree you have, just as long as you have a degree. That will give you a leg on some applicants. What you want is a resume and cover letter that state you have a degree, and to have your resume show tech experience or at least aptitude.
Basically, use your degree to get past HR, and use your resume to get the interview with the tech people.
Or, get the job through networking, referals, and meeting the hiring managers.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
I got my BA in Psychology, but during college I took a job doing crappy phone tech support for a few PC OEMs. I caught the programming bug but finished by Psy. BA anyway. ;) You will be working with PEOPLE, right?
I got into a company doing entry level GIS mapping stuff as an analyst, and gradually taught myself Perl until I was writing scripts that made my job easier. The right people noticed and now my job is writing Perl scripts for the entire project. I also am getting paid a decent salary because I had a BACHELORS DEGREE period. However I'm still an "analyst".
The company paid for me to go to graduate school, and I just earned my M.S. in Computer Information Systems from a prestigious local university. Now they are promoting me to Software Engineer and are transitioning me to a high profile project over the next couple weeks. I'm in line for a major raise in pay, probably around 40% as I transition into engineering.
So there you have it. First take some time, use Google, and learn why a Psychology degree is VERY relevant to EVERY career. This will help to build your confidence. Like someone else said here, don't apologize for that major. Be ready to explain in an interview why that degree makes you MORE qualified. I like to tell people I got my bachelors degree in "People Science".
Then try to get in with an entry level job by wowing them at your interview. Also, look into graduate school. Computer Science isn't for everyone, but many universities are creating degrees in "Information Systems", "Information Science" or "Management of IS". Pick what's best for you.
From my own experience, I have to say that unless you're aiming for a manager's position or higher, you do not need a degree. Over the past fifteen years we've seen the shift go from degree-required, to degree-optional and cert-required to experience-required, certs-preferred, degree-optional. It may differ in your part of the world, but that's what I've seen in Texas.
You can pick up any entry level position as an application developer or web developer using your language of choice. Spend a year or two at that and you'll wind up being a senior developer. Then in another few years with your degree, you'll likely end up as a development manager or QA manager.
If you choose the hardware path, again you can start as a help desk technician with self-taught skills. Spend a year in that role and you could move to a System Administrator or Network Administrator depending on the company requirements and which side of the house you show a talent for. Another year or two at that, get certifications in your speciality and again with your degree (even though it's irrelevant) you may end up as an IT Manager.
Just prepare yourself for long hours of work, focusing on a single or just a few skills in which you can specialize but keep your ears open and learn new technologies as they come along. Personally, I highly recommend learning VMWare ASAP right now. It's becoming mainstream and will be a basic skill needed by everyone by the end of 2007.
Best of luck to you.
Start working somewhere inside. I started working in the supply department, then moved to marketing, finally a opening came up in IS as a helpdesk tech. I took it and now I'm a sys admin after working as a tech for a year and a half.
If you work at the company, they are much more accepting of hiring you than some new dude off of the streets. Plus many companies HR departments are very open to discussions about where you want to end up. Just talk to them.
It's amazing, they just want you to be happy since you'll work better and make the company better profits. Talk to your work, most of the time they'll do a lot to get it working for you.
"When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you." --leonstryker
Judging by the team I've found myself on since taking a new job (more money, sunnier climate), there's plenty of work out there for people who want to get into computers. Knowledge optional.
HALP!
Game... blouses.
Whenever someone asks me what classes I had to take to get my programming job, I tell them "the required classes to gain the knowledge for this job: genetics, molecular biology, organic chemistry, biochemistry, 3 years of chemistry, and the usual stuff like bacteriology and zoology". And a .COM bubble where they hired anyone who could turn on a computer. And maybe was breathing. But I digress.
Eventually I tell them that I started with a BS in Genetics followed by a MS in Biology. During this time I noticed that all the biologists where unable to use their computers, so I started doing ti because I had a rather strong background in computers - I only went genetics because of a flip of the coin (heads: genetics, tails: comp sci. Heads...). As I was finishing the Bio MS I took a couple of programming classes and really enjoyed them. I asked how long it would take ot get a BS in CS, and they said I could go right in the MS program. I said Hell Yeah! and took a year of undergrad classes so I could catch up to the regular students. Then it was all grad CS stuff. In fact I just turned in my final project - training neural networks to play games. I enjoyed it.
Save the Music; Save the World at http://www.TuneTriever.com (Our latest Android game)
I'm in the exact same spot, dammit! Liberal Arts degree, self-taught, no certifications. I keep hearing that the best thing for me to do would be to get ANY certification. (I also learn best hands on.) And you're right, the labs at some, not all colleges are full of people who don't really know or give a damn about what they're doing.
Good advice:
First let me be helpful, take some courses to get a professional certification for whatever you wish to do.
Let's look at this from the employer's perspective. Why should I hire you without any proof of you being useful to me ? If you are lucky, you could get an interview, then ace some sort of proficiency test, but in most cases you won't get past the first cut without some objective proof that you may be capable of performing the tasks required of you.
Now the rant:
Why does the IT industry seem to prefer individuals NOT formally trained to those who are ? Would you go to a doctor that did not graduate from med school ? Would you hire a lawyer who did not pass the bar ? How many bridges have been built by self taught civil engineers ? So why should anyone without some sort of formal training or certification expect to work in IT ?