Rewiring (and Unwiring) New Orleans

stinkymountain writes "Is New Orleans bouncing back from Hurricane Katrina with the most advanced telecom system in the country? According to Network World, carriers have invested billions to rebuild the wired and wireless networks in the city, and businesses are taking advantage of new, advanced telecom services." This story selected and edited by LinuxWorld editor for the day Saied Pinto.

Comments

Stupidity

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, let's rebuild New Orleans, and let's not just rebuild it but let's put more advanced (translated: expensive) equipment into the infrastructure, so that the next Katrina to come along can cost us even more.

This is just plain stupid. I can understand that New Orleans has sentimental value for thousands of people, but come on...

Re:Stupidity

[eln]

If you're going to rebuild the city (and they are, except for apparently the lower 9th ward, which by the looks of it will just be allowed to remain a pile of rubble that even the cops are afraid to go into until it crumbles entirely to dust), it would be idiotic to put old technology in there. They're going to be spending billions to dig big trenches and replace poles and whatnot, do you expect them to do all of that and put in, say, cloth insulated wiring?

NO will get the most current technology because it makes sense to rebuild in such a way that you won't have to be digging up the same streets 5 years from now to upgrade wiring that was obsolete when you first installed it.

Re:Stupidity

[russ1337]

They went wi-fi cos they learned that the standard internet tubes fill with water....

Re:Stupidity

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah so we should abandon New Orleans then, huh? And you should go tell those Japanese to abandon their tiny island country so that the next earthquakes won't destroy their lives, oh yea.

Re:Stupidity

[kfg]

. . . you should go tell those Japanese to abandon their tiny island country so that the next earthquakes won't destroy their lives. . .

Actually, they tried that a while ago and we told them to knock it off.

KFG

Re:Stupidity

[mrxak]

I think the main point is, why are they rebuilding the city where it was before? Why not move the city farther away from the coast and above sea level? It's just asking for another big disaster, possibly even this fall, and all this shiny new equipment will be wiped out. It's not the level of technology, it's the investment in a place just waiting for another wipe-out.

Re:Stupidity

[CoonAss56]

The only thing that is stupid is your anon comments. What about the businesses and residents that live here? FYI, the cost for replacing the copper is the same as fiber, so just are we to do to please your ignorant ass? Here's a heads-up, the people that live here-(ME) don't give a rat's ass about anybody's opinion about why we should do this and why we should do that. This is our HOME and we will do as we see fit.

Re:Stupidity

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I just hope this time they put the generators in the hospital on the top floor (and other such improvements that reflect the fact that anything in the first 30' might get flooded and thus should be used for parking structures only, not residences or stores).

Re:Stupidity

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Then I hope you won't mind when the rest of the country tells you to go to hell in the next hurricane, since you're too stupid to actually do something to prevent disaster- such as having building and safety codes that recognize anything below 30' might get flooded out.

Re:Stupidity

[Lumpy]

and it would be stupid to do.

Drop in a pantload of fiber everywhere and call it done. puttin in the "advanced" crap is pure BS and is only a way for contractors to pad their pockets with extra cash.

Fiber is cheap, do it right, not "advanced".

Re:Stupidity

[plague3106]

Probably because NO is very much a port city, just like Philadelphia or NYC. Moving the city further from one of their main industries will just make the port more expensive to run.

Hopefully one of the technological advances will be new levies and such...

FWIW, I don't think NO has ever been hit by a storm which 'wiped out' the city before... its unlikely to happen again in the near future, I'd think.

Re:Stupidity

[HuckleCom]

Well, doing it 'right' the first time may not be the most 'cost effective' solution; Just getting the lines up in the first place would be a major improvement. There's always going to be something to replace, or upgrade. When you're doing upgrades you can do so progressively and time is on your side to build up budget and upgrade. Otherwise you run the risk of delaying progress because of budget shortcomings.

Re:Stupidity

[mrxak]

They've had close calls before, and a Katrina-like event was predicted years in advance. It's only a matter of time before it happens again.

Re:Stupidity

[LWATCDR]

So let's not invest in LA or San Francisco since they are on major earthquake faults.
Forget about Seattle and large sections of Oregon since they are on major earthquake faults and have volcanoes near by.
For get about St. Louis since it is also on an earthquake fault.
New York City? Also could be hit by a major hurricane.
Miami and Houston should also be written off.
Hurricanes are unpredictable New Orleans might go 100 years without getting hit.
Before anyone pipes up with there proof that global warming is going to cause more and stronger hurricanes let me point out that so far there hasn't been a single hurricane so far this year.
The solution for New Orleans is simple.
1. Don't rebuild in the flood zones.
2. Have a real evacuation plan.

A lot of areas in New Orleans didn't flood at all. I will tell you that since I have been hit by three hurricanes in two years I found out something. The news services make it look a lot worse that it is. New Orleans was really bad but I promise you that news people filmed all the worst spots and showed them to you in great detail.

Re:Stupidity

[cayenne8]

"If you're going to rebuild the city (and they are, except for apparently the lower 9th ward, which by the looks of it will just be allowed to remain a pile of rubble that even the cops are afraid to go into until it crumbles entirely to dust"

Don't kid yourself..it isn't just the 9th ward that isn't seeing any rebuilding action....ANYWHERE that was flooded, is still pretty much dead. I used to live on the very edge (poor side) of the Lakeview area. Last time I was there a month or two ago, I was amazed at how it still looked like an atom bomb had gone off there...that area is still mostly a ghost town too...hardly anyone living there, hardly any rebuilding. A lost of the debris and trash is gone, but, that's about it.

No...for the most part, any part of the city and outskirts that was flooded...is still dead, and I dunno when/if it will come back. Hell, FEMA and the other agencies can't get off their asses to tell everyone officially how much they will have to raise there houses in order to get insurance...

And that brings up insurance...hell, will you be able to get it again?

But, no..it isn't just the poor 9th ward with troubles or New Orleans east...the wealthier parts hit are in just as bad a shape...

Re:Stupidity

[Anonymous Coward]

This is so stupid a suggestion that I can't even come up with a good starting point for discussing it. Congratulations, you are one of the few people I just have to conclude are terminally stupid. Oh, by the way, we better rebuild Seattle in an area that has less volcano activity, and move the cities on fault lines in California into Utah somewhere. Jackass.

Re:Stupidity

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, by the way, we better rebuild Seattle in an area that has less volcano activity, and move the cities on fault lines in California into Utah somewhere. Jackass.

No, you are the jackass here. If one of those cities were destroyed by the dangerous surroundings in which it exists, would you think it a wise idea to rebuild it in exactly the same location?

Re:Stupidity

[cayenne8]

"They've had close calls before, and a Katrina-like event was predicted years in advance. It's only a matter of time before it happens again."

True...but, the damage potential now is due in great part from the erosion of the coastal wetlands...lost in GREAT part, but, the slicing and dicing of it for pipelines for oil and gas to come in from the Gulf, and canals cut into it for transportation of such. You do realize that about 30% of your energy comes through this area don't you? Remember that 'little' gas crunch that happened after Katrina? Hmm? Well, a lot of the flood damage potential is due to the sacrifices and all that New Orleans and southern LA has put into giving the US this place for energy harvest, refinement and transport. We need money now, in forms of giving us a more fair share of off shore drilling lease royalties, to ensure that the coastal wetlands that are the best and a natural barrier from hurrican surges can be rebuilt and maintained...funds that are continuous and dedicated to that.

In another post you said "Move the City"...do you really think that is possible? Let's see, San Francisco is on a fault line, and they had some pretty bad damage awhile back, and are due for another catastrophe..maybe we could move SF? New Orleans is a major port city!! It is not only a source of a lot of importated goods, but, more importantly, all large percentage of exports from the central part of the US go through there...not really possible further up river.

Give a little thought to helping NOLA...it has been her longer than the US itself...nearly 300 yrs old. It has given the US cultural gifts, it is a strategic port city, and a central point for much of the energy the US needs. I don't see any other states shouting to let them build new refineries in 'their backyard', and the east coast, Florida, and the west coast all bad drilling for oil...so in trade for us letting people do that in our area...give us a fuckin' break, and instead of criticism, how about some help...perm. help.

I'm having to live outside NOLA for now...I desperately want to go back to live there, I do work there...but, I gotta see if the city and state will get their act together, and restart this city as it should be, and clean house. (Good start by taking over almost all the previously failing schools and making them charter schools), but, also, if we'll be able to get insurance on a house, and if the Corps. of Engineers, can and will build a comprehensive levee system that is built in a smart fashion, and not a half assed one like last time, that failed way before it should have and nearly killed the city.

Lastly...c'mon...we're part of the US. You can see what the Dutch did for their special town of Amsterdam. Is NOLA not that important for the US? If not for sentamental value, then for business as I've listed above. We send tons of $$ to other countries as foreign aid....why not keep a little of that to take care of our own...just give us the tools to protect ourselves, and we'll gladly keep exporting culture, fun, and energy for the US.

Re:Stupidity

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a heads-up, the people that live here-(ME) don't give a rat's ass about anybody's opinion about why we should do this and why we should do that. This is our HOME and we will do as we see fit.

That is all well and good, but the next time your elected leaders skim from your state treasury instead of rebuilding levies to keep your cities from sinking into the gulf, don't evacuate into my city and don't expect my tax money to keep bailing you out.

I don't mean to be a dick, but I live in Houston and I am sick and tired of all of the New Orleans residents who are still living here. The majority refuse to try and fit in or acknowledge in any way that the city of Houston has bent over backwards for them. No, instead I get two murders in my normally quiet and peaceful apartment complex within the same month, both committed by New Orleans evacuees. What a wonderful "thank you". I'm sure its just a few bad apples making all the others look bad but I just need to rant for a moment.

Re:Stupidity

[srock2588]

Are you going to use my tax dollars to rebuild it? If so, then please don't rebuild the part that is below sea level and stuck between a lake and the frickin' golf of Mexico. Only the French would have built it that way in the first place...zing!

Re:Stupidity

[TheNinjaroach]

With Americans-(MY) money.

Re:Stupidity

[cayenne8]

"I don't mean to be a dick, but I live in Houston and I am sick and tired of all of the New Orleans residents who are still living here. The majority refuse to try and fit in or acknowledge in any way that the city of Houston has bent over backwards for them..."

On this, I hear ya, and feel for you. Katrina really did kind of "flush" NOLA...the city needed it, but, I feel sorry for the other cities and states that have gotten stuck with it. I'm talking about the criminal elements, mostly from the projects. On the other hand, there have been some wonderful stories about some of the really poor, that left, and have actually seen what schools are supposed to be like...what an education does, and that life in the projects on the 'dole' is NOT a way of life. I'm hoping that some of those do come back to the city, and after seeing what schools, roads and the like are supposed to be, demand it of our city's govmt.

Trouble is...many of the gang bangers and other drug people, are trying quickly to get back to NOLA. They've found out, that in TX if you kill someone, you're not out on the street again in 48 hours, they try you and fry your ass. I hope they can get the judicial system fixed here...'cause they are coming back in droves to where 'business is easier'...no wonder we've had to get the Nat'l Guard to protect the abandoned neighborhoods (read anywhere that flooded, Lakeview, mid-city, 9th ward) and setting up shop in the ghost towns that used to be neighborhoods.

Anyway, from MOST of the people that aren't drags on society or criminals...THANKS for the help...and I hope soon, we can get those assholes you mentioned put behind bars wherever they are, and out of our hair.

Re:Stupidity

[Anonymous Coward]

Ignorance...

New Orleans happens to be one of the largest oil refining areas in our country. Most of the gasoline on the east coast is processed through New Orleans. New Orleans is the 5th largest port in the country and the busiest port in the US in throughput. It is the top port for rubber, cement, and coffee.

Can it be shipped somewhere else? Sure, if you want to build infrastructure to handle all of this somewhere else. Why build it anywhere else on the coast where it is just as likely to be destroyed? I have seen New Orleans and it isn't like the entire city is gone and they are rebuilding from scratch.

Ignoring the value to the country's infrastructure and that the US Government is mostly responsible for the destruction (US Corps of Engineers?), 14 million people visit New Orleans each year making it one of the biggest tourist areas in our country. Does that not indicate that there is more intrinsic value to the US as a whole and not just the residents of New Orleans?

Re:Stupidity

[Anonymous Coward]

Well to be honest NO a big crap ole, always was always will be. It aint worth saving, neither are the people.This from a person with a higher IQ than u all

Re:Stupidity

[mrxak]

Considering just how much damage was done, and how many people cleared out/died, I'd say that it's a lot more possible to move the city now than it would be to move a city that's fully populated. If San Francisco got evacuated and basically got wiped out, then yeah, I'd probably recommend that most people stay away from that area in the future. But they haven't completely evacuated (or I should say, gave a weak attempt at completely evacuating), so it makes no sense. Also, earthquake threat is a lot less serious to San Francisco than hurricane threat is to New Orleans. Nobody knows where an earthquake will strike in California. It doesn't have to be in or near San Francisco. Heck, an earthquake could strike in New Orleans. But to rebuild a city in a bowl below sea level in an area that gets a lot of hurricanes every year and got wiped out once already in an easily preventable situation is nothing short of suicidal. There's a reason why a lot of people who left aren't coming back, it doesn't take a genius to understand why.

I'm not trying to be insensitive here. I think it was tremendous human tragedy that happened in that city and it was a disgraceful response from the government. I respect those that want to hold onto their culture. I'm just sayin', if you want to hold onto it, do it in a place that's not going to get yourselves killed (again). Don't be suicidal, learn the lessons that so many people died to teach you.

Re:Stupidity

[mrxak]

If Seattle got wiped out by a volcano and everybody evacuated, I'd suggest they move the city someplace better next time too. It's pretty obvious where volcanos are located, and if one was to erupt and then go dormant, I would not suggest you build a big city on top of it again. That would be terminally stupid.

If a city got completely destroyed in California and it was obvious it would have another earthquake again at any time and do the same thing, I would suggest they move the city too. But fault lines are all over the place, and an earthquake could really happen anywhere (yes, even in New Orleans). Perhaps a better example would be to say you shouldn't build a house on a California fault line under a big mudslide area. I consider people who rebuild houses in mudslide areas just as stupid as people who want to live in the bowl again, or live on top of a dormant volcano.

Re:Stupidity

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of areas in New Orleans didn't flood at all. I will tell you that since I have been hit by three hurricanes in two years I found out something. The news services make it look a lot worse that it is. New Orleans was really bad but I promise you that news people filmed all the worst spots and showed them to you in great detail.

You must not have looked at Google Maps's - I don't think it's still available, but you used to be able to search for New Orleans on Google Maps and be presented with a Katrina button to view images of New Orleans after Katrina. I looked at it for quite some time, and I don't remember finding more than 3 to 4 consecutive blocks that were not flooded.

Re:Stupidity

[LWATCDR]

I know that that they where so happy the french quarter was undamaged as well as may other locations.
The majority of the problems would still have be resolved if state and local goverments had a working evacuation plan.

Re:Stupidity

[Anonymous Coward]

> So let's not invest in LA or San Francisco since they are on major
> earthquake faults. Forget about Seattle and large sections of
> Oregon since they are on major earthquake faults and have volcanoes
> near by. For get about St. Louis since it is also on an earthquake
> fault. New York City? Also could be hit by a major hurricane.
> Miami and Houston should also be written off.

w00t! More money for Boston! I have some great ideas for Big Dig II.

My god.

[TheOldSchooler]

Just imagine the future of New Orleans; a technological marvel, with gigabit ethernet connections to each home, instantly transmitting terrabytes worth of images showing topless coeds partying outside.

Re:My god.

[Incongruity]

Hmm -- sounds like the urban equivalent of a forest fire in some ways -- the fire comes through and clears out all the old stuff and clears the way for new growth. It'd be very very cool to see New Orleans come back as a much less corrupt and much more modern city that business flocks to, thereby improving the job situation for all residents and improving the tax base allowing for restoration of the historic parts of the city, etc... of course, that's unlikely to happen as the powers that be seem to have survived the flood.

Re:My god.

[TubeSteak]

Just imagine the future of New Orleans; a technological marvel, with gigabit ethernet connections to each home, instantly transmitting terrabytes worth of images showing topless coeds partying outside.

That'll never happen.
Too many backhoes in the New Orleans area.

I can't imagine that (with the amount of ongoing* construction)
anyone in the city will have consistent internet service or cable tv.

The Backhoe, The Internet's Natural Enemy
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/19/164 3215

*You really think NO isn't going to get smacked by another hurricane before they finish up this round of re-building?

Re:My god.

[Anonymous Coward]

It'd be very very cool to see New Orleans come back as a much less corrupt and much more modern city that business flocks to, thereby improving the job situation for all residents and improving the tax base allowing for restoration of the historic parts of the city, etc.

So basically, another soulless corporate office park? No thanks.

Anyway, there's millions to be made in corruption, and the politicians are all still there, so I doubt this will actually happen. Besides, not too many companies are interested in headquartering somewhere that will inevitably drown again.

Re:My god.

[mrxak]

Just imagine the future of New Orleans; a technological marvel, with gigabit ethernet connections to each home, instantly transmitting terrabytes worth of images showing topless coeds partying outside.

Or more likely, lots of video blogs of the next big huricane.

Re:My god.

[Anonymous Coward]

So basically, another soulless corporate office park? No thanks. Yeah, sure, that's what he said.

Re:My god.

[hador_nyc]

Hmm -- sounds like the urban equivalent of a forest fire in some ways -- the fire comes through and clears out all the old stuff and clears the way for new growth. It'd be very very cool to see New Orleans come back as a much less corrupt and much more modern city that business flocks to, thereby improving the job situation for all residents and improving the tax base allowing for restoration of the historic parts of the city, etc... of course, that's unlikely to happen as the powers that be seem to have survived the flood.

this kind of thing has happened before... London(middle ages... i forget when the big fire happened)... and the great fire that cured the plague(city was rebuilt with stone... much less hospitible to rats and their fleas) San Fran and their fire, Chicago.. and their fire.. jees I'm on a fire rant here, but what I'm saying is that I agree with you and it seems to me that there is a lot of historical evidence to support that... no doubt a lot more than i can think of when i should be working instead of typing this comment!

Re:My god.

[RESPAWN]

Actually, I lived there for 6 years. Katrina was the first hurricane to hit us in that time. The city isn't as prone as, say, Miami.

Re:My god.

[superflippy]

I visited Hiroshima about 10 years ago. I was amazed by how new and shiny the city seemed, and then I remembered that it *was* pretty new compared to other Japanese cities.

Re:My god.

[Mykid8yours]

Yeah, only to be destroyed again by another catostrophic hurricane. They need to first invest all this great technology into better protecting the city from flooding again. Think about the safety of the community, then bother with the expensive upgrades for entertainment.

Re:My god.

[OhioJoe]

yeah, I recall vising Xenia, Ohio about 10 years ago... it was the town that was infamous for being hit by a 1/4 mile wide F2 or F1 tornado back in 74, destoyed. When I was driving past, I noticed that there was an almost perfect "path" of buildings in a wide long row that were clean and shiney new, while all the buildings everywhere else were old and brown. It was a few moments later that I realized that was the path of the tornado. Kinda eerie.

w00t

[Anonymous Coward]

Lootie gonna get some copper wire and fiber optics!

why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Whut iz a niggar goin 2 do on teh intarweb? kan u get welfar online? Paypal welfair? Eye thik it'z racist, it shuld be payhomie.

Quite appropriate: Nothing to see here

[guruevi]

Does that mean we have to wait for a hurricane in order to get high speed in my area?

It's nice that they are re-building and as with that they indeed have to use new technologies because implementing old would be more expensive. It's logical to me that this happens. It's like building a new house, you can't get the cotton-covered electrical wiring so you get new better wiring. How this will translate to costs of course is another issue. Re-wiring existing technology IS also expensive and the costs/benefit is not as high.

But will this also mean that the poor in New Orleans won't be able to pay the charge for fiber-to-premises? Or will they make it so cheap so that New Orleans becomes the haven for geeks and technological companies?

Re:Quite appropriate: Nothing to see here

[Anonymous Coward]

Geeks and technical companies are smart enough not to build thier facilities in a soup bowl that is below sea level...

Re:Quite appropriate: Nothing to see here

[Anonymous Coward]

Shit even a hurricane cann't get them to replace the old tech shit in my area. We where flooded in 99 and we got no new wiring done to us(most of my county had water at roof levels). Just cut the power let it dry out and switch everything back on. Already had to had parts of my line replace because of corrision from the flood. They will not drop a new line or new switch boxes. Shit mine is held tegether by ducttape(switchbox at road) and most are in the wold with no cover expect a black plastic terash baged taped around it for weatherproofing..

Re:Quite appropriate: Nothing to see here

[acoustix]

"But will this also mean that the poor in New Orleans won't be able to pay the charge for fiber-to-premises? Or will they make it so cheap so that New Orleans becomes the haven for geeks and technological companies?"

Poor people have other expenses to worry about. They don't need fiber to the premises. Just like the poor in the rest of the country doesn't have FTTP. Why should N.O. be treated any differently?

Nick

Re:Quite appropriate: Nothing to see here

[LordOfTheNoobs]

Try telling that to the Dutch!

Re:Quite appropriate: Nothing to see here

[kwark]

But they actually learned from the last big disaster. An effort to prevent it in the future only cost some 5000000000 EUR and 30 years to construct.

And the last decade there was much todo about the river dykes, much of the land near the main rivers is above sea level but below the river level.
The map on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_control_in_the_ Netherlands shows a larger danger area.

Re:Quite appropriate: Nothing to see here

[SeaFox]

But will this also mean that the poor in New Orleans won't be able to pay the charge for fiber-to-premises? Or will they make it so cheap so that New Orleans becomes the haven for geeks and technological companies?

They wont have to pay for any of it, they were in a natural disaster, silly.
The government will pick up the bill as part of Federal Aid for the city rebuilding. Everyone (down there, wins) Telcos gets the government to pay for their network upgrades, businesses and consumers benefit from the improved services available, and the Government gets to gloat about the technological marvel the city has become after such a horrible disaster! Truly this is the work of the American spirit to perservere through this hardship!

The only people who don't benefit are all the taxpayers outside New Orleans who actually paid for it.

Too bad rebuilding NO is a...

[Anonymous Coward]

sick, politically-correct joke. There's really no point except that people equate throwing obscene amounts of cash at the poor with having compassion on them. That is also why there will never be any meaningful welfare reform, and why folks will continue to game the welfare system.

Re:Too bad rebuilding NO is a...

[eln]

That's a nice knee-jerk reaction, but if you actually look at the parts of New Orleans that are actually being rebuilt compared to those that are basically being left to rot, it's the middle class and the wealthy that are benefitting. The poorest areas are not being rebuilt, and it seems like a lot of the aim of the rebuilding efforts so far is to attract businesses and higher-income people than the ones that used to live there. Most of the poor still don't have any homes to return to, and their entire neighborhoods remain wastelands while politicians argue if they should even bother rebuilding them.

There is a significant contingent who would like to see those areas bulldozed and turned into parks, and turn the city into a smaller, wealthier (and whiter) version of what it was.

As far as there being "no point" to rebuilding a major US port city, that's just silly. The reason that city has remained there for hundreds of years, despite its vulnerability is because it's in such a commercially advantageous spot. Maybe instead of letting it sink into the sea, we should concentrate on rebuilding the wetlands around it that served as natural barriers to hurricanes in the past.

Re:Too bad rebuilding NO is a...

[ptbarnett]

The poorest areas are not being rebuilt, and it seems like a lot of the aim of the rebuilding efforts so far is to attract businesses and higher-income people than the ones that used to live there. Most of the poor still don't have any homes to return to, and their entire neighborhoods remain wastelands while politicians argue if they should even bother rebuilding them.

They aren't rebuilding the poorest areas because it's more likely to be flooded again. That's a large part of the reason that low-income people lived there: it was cheaper. And it was cheaper because the land was known to be prone to flooding.

Re:Too bad rebuilding NO is a...

[Marxist Hacker 42]

As far as there being "no point" to rebuilding a major US port city, that's just silly. The reason that city has remained there for hundreds of years, despite its vulnerability is because it's in such a commercially advantageous spot. Maybe instead of letting it sink into the sea, we should concentrate on rebuilding the wetlands around it that served as natural barriers to hurricanes in the past.

Or maybe we should just recognize that nature is stronger than anything we've got, and just build the whole city to float.

Re:Too bad rebuilding NO is a...

[ScentCone]

but if you actually look at the parts of New Orleans that are actually being rebuilt compared to those that are basically being left to rot, it's the middle class and the wealthy that are benefitting

It's not fairies working for the Republican Party waving magic wands at swamped houses and rebuilding them. It's typically people who have money from having the background and training to command a good income that own the houses they're rebuilding, and were paying for enough insurance to do so without it being a dead end.

They're benefitting, and they're paying, too. They're also the ones that pay all of the income taxes, remember? You know, the stuff that funds that part of what the government is doing?

There is a significant contingent who would like to see those areas bulldozed and turned into parks, and turn the city into a smaller, wealthier (and whiter) version of what it was.

Parts of town that are the most likely to flood are the places least well suited to housing. They're perfect for parks. How does the fact that water runs down hill make recognizing that a racial issue, for you?

Re:Too bad rebuilding NO is a...

[DrDitto]

The Port of New Orleans is vital to the Midwestern economy. Billions of dollars worth of agricultural products float down the Mississippi River each year. You can't really have a port without a city given the sheer number of people who work in the system.

Re:Too bad rebuilding NO is a...

[Cutriss]

The poorest areas are not being rebuilt, and it seems like a lot of the aim of the rebuilding efforts so far is to attract businesses and higher-income people than the ones that used to live there. Most of the poor still don't have any homes to return to, and their entire neighborhoods remain wastelands while politicians argue if they should even bother rebuilding them.

And ironically, this will be one of the factors contributing to the eventual failure of the NO experiment. The poor and lower-class are the glue that holds a city like that together. You can bet that the grocery stores and fast food restaurants and other "commodity businesses" won't exist for long paying $10+ an hour just because the lesser-fortunate individuals that would normally be working minimum wage aren't there to take the jobs.

Whether they like it or not, they need the lower-income residents.

Re:Too bad rebuilding NO is a...

[Anonymous Coward]

But then you'd have to fill the ports back in, dumbass.

Re:Too bad rebuilding NO is a...

[cayenne8]

"...ut if you actually look at the parts of New Orleans that are actually being rebuilt compared to those that are basically being left to rot, it's the middle class and the wealthy that are benefitting. The poorest areas are not being rebuilt, and it seems like a lot of the aim of the rebuilding efforts so far is to attract businesses and higher-income people than the ones that used to live there."

While true that we ARE trying to attract business (what city isn't?), and higher income people, we HAVE to!!. To support and help the poorest of poor, you have to have a tax base.....and the majority of that tax base, was wiped out in the Lakeview area. And guess what, just like the 9th ward, and other poorer areas....the Lakeview area is a ghost town too!! Don't kid yourself, there is no real rebuilding in ANY of the areas that were covered by flood waters. It isn't abandoning the poor areas...ALL areas are dead, and still dead. Much of this problem is that FEMA and the other authorities can't even yet tell people what the new flood plains are, or make it official as to how high you have to raise your home when you rebuild...you can't rebuild till you know these things. Also, the great sums of money...are just NOW starting to trickle in from the Feds...people are still fighting today to get insurance claims settled and not get ripped off. There are a lot of factors to the non-rebuilding of the city yet.... materials are in short supply, and lack of ethical, trained people to rebuild...it is impossible to find a contractor still to this day to get things fixed.

So, don't buy into the hype that we're trying to keep the poor and minority population out of the city. The wealthy areas hit are still just as dead as the poor ones. Hell, I can't even move back to the city yet...I'm living outside and commuting.

Anyone is welcome back to the city...IF you want to work, and are skilled to work at a job that pays more that min. wage. With the lack of housing in the city...things are expensive. There is no tax base left in the city to support others in the city without good marketable skills. Hell, the city is missing the lower class workers...they can't keep restaurants or other low labor jobs filled...a catch 22, no place to stay for jobs..I mean, Burger King is paying over $10/hr plus signing bonuses...

So, it is hard for all in that city..and is going to take a long time to come back...there was a lot wrong with the city pre-K, I'm hoping a better city can be rebuilt, we have a chance to do it right...

Re:Too bad rebuilding NO is a...

[Anonymous Coward]

The wetlands weren't there back when New Orleans was founded, it was on the coast.

Check the historical maps. And New Orleans was above the water table back then too.

What happend? Well, to begin with, New Orleans is in a delta, deltas, by their nature, grow as long as sediment keeps coming down river.

Considering that some places of New Orleans have been just bearly above the water table, I think relocation should have been seriously considered.

Re:Too bad rebuilding NO is a...

[cowscows]

Parts of New Orleans should not be rebuilt. Besides being unsafe, the city will not financially be able to support the infrastructure that the old footprint required. The pre-storm population could hardly support the upkeep of the existing infrastructure, even if everyone came back tomorrow, there wouldn't be the money to repair/rebuild it all.

The unfortunate reality, as you've noted, is that the parts least reasonable to rebuild were overall inhabited by low-income residents. But either way, the best solution is not to rebuild all of the old neighborhoods, but to carefully rebuild in the more favorable areas, while still allowing anyone who wants to return to the city. They might not be able to live where they used to, but enough of the population isn't returning that there should be plenty of space for those who do want to come back. That is not an easy thing to work out, and the city's current political structure does not have the vision or the willpower to take on that task, so who knows if it will actually happen.

Of course, the opinions of the residents of what should happen widely vary. But surprisingly, many of the lower-income folks understand that their old neighborhoods are gone, and that trying to rebuild them is not the best course. I've heard a story about two adjacent neighborhood groups hiring their own planners and coming up with a plan to revert one of the neighborhoods back to wetland, and condense the residents into the other. Both sides had generally agreed to the plan. But their local council person said no, defiently repeating that all of New Orleans will be rebuilt.

I don't remember what my point was. So I guess I'll just make up a new one. The local government dropped the ball. The federal government dropped the ball. The city plods on because the citizens love New Orleans. But the future is not particularly bright for the city.

Re:Too bad rebuilding NO is a...

[Gomorrah_Sodom]

Are you perhaps a resident of New Orleans? As an ACTUAL Katrina survivor I can honestly say that the city of New Orleans got exactly what it deserved. They build a city at the bottom of a lake bed, and it floods, big surprise. The only reason there was such a big media hype about the city after Hurrican Katrina is because it was not actually hit by the hurricane itself. There were building and water a couple stories deep that showed you how bad it was. Go look at pictures of Mississippi, they rarely showed those because for about 300 yards in from the beach, everything was gone. No buldings left standing, nothing to show. It was all gone, you would have to show before and after pictures in order for it to have any effect.

So let them rebuild New Orleans however they damn well please, it will only get flooded again, and this time the "rich, white people", as you so politally correct called them, will be flooded instead. Oh and FYI, the rich are rebuilding because they are the ones that can pay for the supplies, and pay for the labor it requires to rebuild. It is not up to the government to rebuild these homes, they were bad and over priced anyway.

Re:Too bad rebuilding NO is a...

[mabu]

It's way, WAY premature to start talking about where emphasis is being placed in the rebuilding effort. At this time, virtually nothing is being "rebuilt" - we're still in the tearing down, deciding-what-we're-going-to-do phase. Most of my friends are still trying to get their insurance settlements... they aren't even sure whether they can afford to rebuild, or whether tearing down will be a better option. I know of no area of the city where there is any sanctioned "rebuilding effort" in place, so I don't know what you're talking about.

At this time, the only large scale building going on involves repair to certain areas of the levees where they breeched, and some pumping station work (there's actually no observable efforts to strengthen the already flawed existing system -- and I toured the city only a few hours ago taking pictures).

Re:Too bad rebuilding NO is a...

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in New Orleans and I promise the hurricane was color blind. I'm white and I had to move. The city probably doesn't want to rebuild homes for which they were already paying for (welfare) whether the people were white or black. If you were sitting on your butt and you lost your government subsidised home, you don't deserve for it to be rebuilt. There's lots of opportunity here now. Everybody is hiring and paying well (McDonald's is paying $10+/hr). If you lost everything, accept it and move on. Nobody owes you anything. I know this is a rant. I'm just tired of the White/Black crap!

Re:Too bad rebuilding NO is a...

[memprime]

The poor and lower-class are the glue that holds a city like that together.

What by scumming welfare off the taxpayers and not pay taxes because they don't have incomes, or have incomes that wouldn't warrant taxes being levied on them? I would only want people who could afford by having their shit or getting their shit together to pay taxes to help build up the city again.

Carriage before the horse?

[192939495969798999]

I agree that it's great people are taking advantage of the new services, hopefully some of those will provide the people of New Orleans with their still more pressing needs, like houses, regular supply of goods + services, etc. In case you missed it, a remarkable story of Katrina and its post-effects appears on this blog (no relation). Even current posts there detail how things are still far from normal -- things each of us take for granted are still considered blessings in the affected areas.

Re:Carriage before the horse?

[russ1337]

Did they get a tax break for helping rebuild ? I'm sure nation will be wondering why the people of New Orleans are still poor 5 years down track, while large corporations say "bbbut we invested billions, we cant understand why they are still poor"... etc. Is the Billions of Telco money going to create jobs and wealth, or just fleece the locals for wi-fi instead?

first post

[Anonymous Coward]

snakes on a plain fridat

Most advanced (easily tappable) system ever...

[Anonymous Coward]

They are listening to you.

Just a friendly note from your friendly neighborhood AC, posting through one hundred and fifty proxies across sixteen continents with illegal 911 bit encryption.

captcha: wretch

Wired vs. Wireless

[blueZ3]

On a somewhat related note, I heard an ad for AT&T while driving to work this morning that was disparaging VOIP service as inferior to landlines here in California. The main thrust of the radio spot was the recent power outages in California prevented people using VOIP from making calls, while those using landlines still had a dialtone. There was the typical scaremongering, with the implication that people who needed to call 911 couldn't if they were relying on VOIP, while AT&T customers were "safe" because AT&T has generators at the switching stations.

Re:Wired vs. Wireless

[russ1337]

ere was the typical scaremongering, with the implication that people who needed to call 911 couldn't if they were relying on VOIP, while AT&T customers were "safe" because AT&T has generators at the switching stations.

.. and all they had to say was "VOIP is the chosen carrier of Al Queda...", or "if you use VOIP, the terrorists will win"

Re:Wired vs. Wireless

[RESPAWN]

Not that you could have gotten through the switch anyway. I lived in New Orleans when the hurricane hit. My 504 area code cell phone was virtually unusable for incoming calls for the better part of the next couple of months. Backup generator or not, the lines were simply unusable. Actually, when we were evacuating, myself and my friend in the other car, once we finally made a connection on our cell phones, just stayed on the line with each other for several hours so we could communicate driving (idling) strategies.

That said, I haven't read the friendly article yet so I don't know if they mention the exact details, but from what I learned from a friend of mine in the T-Com industry in New Orleans, most of the major carriers either didn't correctly place their generators or simply didn't have enough diesel. Suffice it to say, my primary means of communication on the road became texting from my phone since those didn't require voice services, and sending email from my Skytel pager. I had to purchase a prepaid phone once in Houston in order to receive any calls at all from family and work.

On a different note, the city wide wireless network is very cool. I took advantage of it the last time I was down there. It's certainly useful to be able fire up my laptop from anywhere in the downtown area and connect to "City of New Orleans" to check my email. If all major cities started doing this, it could open up the markets to a whole new subset of wifi enabled mobile devices, like the Skype phones and Nokia wifi web tablet, not to mention embeded devices in automobiles such as, perhaps, a Google Maps/GPS navigator. The only criticism that I had was that I, not surprisingly, had a hard time maintaining a connection from the 18th floor of my hotel. I've also heard that the coverage isn't as good outside of the CBD, but I didn't take my laptop with me to test when I ventured out to the 'burbs.

Re:Wired vs. Wireless

[BrianH]

There was the typical scaremongering, with the implication that people who needed to call 911 couldn't if they were relying on VOIP, while AT&T customers were "safe" because AT&T has generators at the switching stations.
 
Does it still count as scaremongering if it is true? I know that in my area (central California), the network equipment owned by our local cable company runs on 30 minute UPS's. The central station runs just fine, but all of the repeating boxes go dark during an extended outage. We had a blackout during the heatwave last month, and ALL of the VOIP users in my area ended up without any kind of connectivity (911 or otherwise) for hours.

Few people have UPS's in their homes anyway...I don't know the real numbers, but from personal experience I'd bet that 90% of the people out there aren't relying on anything more than a surge strip and wall outlet to power their home equipment. When the wall power fails, their VOIP goes too simply because their home equipment is unpowered (to be fair, this isn't a VOIP problem...I have the same issue with my cordless phones).

Re:Wired vs. Wireless

[plague3106]

Well, that actually is a problem, and one of the reasons I installed a UPS. I have my cable modem and router plugged into the UPS to keep the phones operational.

Re:Wired vs. Wireless

[japhering]

On a somewhat related note, I heard an ad for AT&T while driving to work this morning that was disparaging VOIP service as inferior to landlines here in California. The main thrust of the radio spot was the recent power outages in California prevented people using VOIP from making calls, while those using landlines still had a dialtone. There was the typical scaremongering, with the implication that people who needed to call 911 couldn't if they were relying on VOIP, while AT&T customers were "safe" because AT&T has generators at the switching stations

Given the low percentages of homes with UPS systems or even backup batteries, the commercial is not that far from the true... certainly
closer to the truth than the internet companies' promoting reliable "phone service" with voip.

When was the last time you got on your computer during a power outage to use the internet? More than likely, only using dialup from a laptop :-)

Re:Wired vs. Wireless

[Anonymous Coward]

once we finally made a connection on our cell phones, just stayed on the line with each other for several hours so we could communicate driving (idling) strategies.

What a nice waste of resources!

Way to be considerate of your fellow citizens!

Re:Wired vs. Wireless

[KenBot_314]

I have heard these commercials too in Texas and it really frustrates me.
Not only are ATT offering their OWN VOIP for sale (http://www.att.com/voip/) but they also are rolling out Fiber to the Premise which will have all the telecommunications running to the house on fiber plugged into an ATT installed battery backup inside the home.
So they really are discrediting their own services!

Re:Wired vs. Wireless

[Workaphobia]

Does that really work? If there's a massive power outage (think East coast, August 2003), is it typical for cable internet service to function just fine so long as the local hardware has backup power? If so, it might be worth buying a UPS just so I have something to do in a blackout besides listening to the radio.

Re:Wired vs. Wireless

[plague3106]

Well, think back before Auguest 2003. When was the last time we had an outage like that? I don't remember one, and I've lived my whole life near Philadelphia. FWIW, my employer only lost power for the afernoon. We were working the next day again.

At any rate, as long as you shut of your server, I'd think the UPS would provide power for a while.. a router + cable modem don't require huge amounts of electricity. The only trouble would be your cable co losing power.. but at least you've done all you could.

You lived below sea level

[Overzeetop]

Let the ocean take it and live somewhere else. Or, at the least, quit asking for my tax dollars to bail your sorry asses out and hold back the gulf.

I think it is a collosal waste of money, and investing $B in infrastructure is just going to encourage people to move to an area which is inherently unsafe and very expensive to make livable.

Oh, go ahead, hit that troll button, but there are an awful lot of us that are getting sick and tired of people spending an inordinate amount of taxpayer money on projects that keep "beautiful" places in the black. I'm okay with the occasional monument or historic home, but forking over billions of dollars to artifically change the landscape for a commercial venture is not my idea of good government. That goes for all you weenies on the east coast, too. I'm tired of paying the Army Corps of Engineers to put the beach back so your oceanfront home keeps its value. You want beach, you pay for it.

Re:You lived below sea level

[schnikies79]

amen! if i had mod points you would have them

i feel the same way about a large chuck of cali. if you don't want your home to slide down a hillside, don't build it there..

Re:You lived below sea level

[Enoxice]

Okay, since you asked for it, the government will only spend your tax money on itself from now on (i.e. the war, and brand new wiretapping tech).

Also, I'd be more apt to mod you "funny" because you your phrasing for keeping places like New Orleans "in the black". I thought it was funny.

Re:You lived below sea level

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, go ahead, hit that troll button, but there are an awful lot of us that are getting sick and tired of people spending an inordinate amount of taxpayer money on projects that keep "beautiful" places in the black.

What, you have a problem with a chocolate city? I knew it was about race.

Re:You lived below sea level

[Catbeller]

The Army Corps of Engineers created the god damned mess by dredging the river and laying in a new, straight canal for oil tankers and such to get at your precious oil so you could gas your precious car that you drive on freeways made by taxpayers paying hundreds of billions of dollars so that your white bread town could exist in suburban splendor at nearly no cost to you. The storm surge went straight up the canal and swamped the stormwalls. for your oil.

And taxpayers gave lovely tax breaks for the oil companies who tore out the wetlands surrounding the city which soaked up the ocean's force for thousands of years, and which are disappearing at a rate of two football fields A DAY, leaving the city naked and armorless. For your oil, at their expense.

Adjusted for inflation, we've spent trillions of dollars since the 50's laying concrete ribbons into the cornfields so smarmy, self-satisfied EXTREMELY subsidized white a-holes could sneer at the cities which funded their existence. Now we've nothing BUT suburbs and the cities are being colonized by the white suburbanites, and we've shut down the factories in the cities which used to make things to sell to other people for trade cash to build lovely 1.5 million dollar soft lofts... and I'm sure the white a-holes who live in such will be just fine as the realization sinks in to those who don't have the money to live anywhere, city or suburb, that there is no place left to work and no money from the tax-cut jackasses who wrecked everything to rebuild the economy. Castles and serfs, baby. Their own fault for choosing where they live. After all, you did...

Re:You lived below sea level

[BBrown]

You'd prefer, perhaps, that Little Rock, Arkansas be a waterfront vista?

In all seriousness, you really must accept the basic fact that our main population centers are along the coasts and waterways of our country, and that there exist several good reasons why this tradition has survived a couple thousand years of city building.

I'm curious, however, where you live that is so free from any sort of natural disadvantages that our tax dollars do not go towards mitigating?

Re:You lived below sea level

[Black-Man]

The city is BELOW sea level. Which part of that statement DON'T you understand?

Re:You lived below sea level

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, that's it. And those who live in Florida, where we have already spent millions rebuilding after years of hurricanes, let 'em rot! Not one more dime! And California, where they have earthquakes, forget about them, too. And Oklahoma, Kansas & Arkansas, where they have tornados, buncha of weenies looking for help. What about Oregon, with volcanoes? They shouldn't get any help, either. And them freakin yankees and those in the Dakotas and Montana, & Michigan, that choose, mind you, choose to live in weather that requires snowplowing every summer & huge amounts of heating oil to keep warm, well, let em freeze, I say. None of them need a hand out. Certainly now you, that's for sure.

Re:You lived below sea level

[Anonymous Coward]

And them freakin yankees and those in the Dakotas and Montana, & Michigan, that choose, mind you, choose to live in weather that requires snowplowing every summer & huge amounts of heating oil to keep warm, well, let em freeze, I say.

I live in Michigan, and it's summer, and I'm pretty sure there are no snowplows or furnaces in operation.

Re:You lived below sea level

[dctoastman]

The whole reason the area is in constant danger from hurricanes is the work done to prevent the Mississippi from flooding up north. If they hadn't built those levees and allowed the Mississippi to run its natural course, then there would be no wetlands problem, the barrier islands would still be intact, and hurricanes wouldn't be hitting New Orleans with such deadly force. I mean, it was their (Northeners) fault for building on a flood plain, right?

Re:You lived below sea level

[chill]

What, you have a problem with a chocolate city? I knew it was about race.

It isn't the chocolate part, it is all the nuts.

  Charles

Re:You lived below sea level

[ScentCone]

And them freakin yankees and those in the Dakotas and Montana, & Michigan, that choose, mind you, choose to live in weather that requires snowplowing every summer & huge amounts of heating oil to keep warm, well, let em freeze, I say.

Really, you think that the Michigan DOT or the South Dakota state and county governments are asking for federal aid to plow all of their roads every year? Or that the residents in those states don't buy their own heating oil?

Left alone, Detroit may go to hell in a handbasket socially, but it's very like to be under the ocean. And the snow that covers Mitchell, SD every year WILL melt. All the more so, if Al Gore's right. But Huron, SD isn't going to disappear under some layer of Canada if the Army doesn't make a career out of building a wall around it.

Re:You lived below sea level

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, go ahead, hit that troll button

As you wish ...

Re:You lived below sea level

[truckaxle]

Adjusted for inflation, we've spent trillions of dollars since the 50's laying concrete ribbons into the cornfields so smarmy, self-satisfied EXTREMELY subsidized white a-holes could sneer at the cities which funded their existence.

Wow have we not had our coffee yet this morning.

First I assume you are referring to the National Interstate Highway system. This is called infrastructure that is largely responsible for our prosperity and is a national security issue. They were not built so that people could live in the suburbs, which a completely different phenomenom. Europe has a super highway system don't they. Perhaps you should move to a 3rd world country that doesn't make such investments for the future, maybe you will feel more at home.

Since you think that these "smarmy self-satified EXTREMELY subsizided white a-holes" are subsizided by some other group, can you identify that group?

Re:You lived below sea level

[chill]

There is a significant difference between "free from any sort of natural disadvantages" and building a city below sea level, in a bowl, on the coast, in the known path of major hurricanes, at the mouth of one of the largest river systems in the world, adjacent to an artificial lake and surrounded by swamp and marshland.

Post-Katrina analysis by the NOAA had downgraded the strength of the hurricane to a Category 3 and look at what happened. One of these days they really are going to get hit with a Category 5 and that will be all she wrote.

Re:You lived below sea level

[kfg]

. . . there exist several good reasons why this tradition has survived a couple thousand years of city building.

Cario/Memphis, Paris and London are all inland. Originally only expendable docks and sheds were built on the riverfront. The houses were all built on the tops of the hills, with the agrgicultural lands on the flood plain between.

. . .where you live that is so free from any sort of natural disadvantages that our tax dollars do not go towards mitigating?

Despite the Army Corps of Engineers expending a good deal of money on flood control I lost all of my crops to flood this year. Not sure about future years, as my soil spent several days soaking in toxic waste. Tax dollars were spent to pump out my land as a potential health hazard to the public.

On the other hand, although I lost my crops which were planted on the rich soils of the flood plain (originally deposited before the invention of toxic waste vats), my house remained safe and untouched, because. . .

Yes, that's right, it was built at the top of the hill more than 100 years ago by people who were rather wiser than the people who built the newer houses I had to go help neighbors out of, by boat.

KFG

Re:You lived below sea level

[ScentCone]

er, that should read "NOT very likely to be under the ocean"

Re:You lived below sea level

[enjar]

Where exactly do you live?
If you live pretty much anywhere in the United States, there's some natural disaster that can come along and level your town/city.

I used to live in New Orleans and I can confirm that when you get away from the "beautiful" sections, there's a lot of "ugly". But New Orleans is/was one of the (if not THE) largest ports on the Gulf of Mexico, controlling shipments of food to and from the US, not to mention, oil, gas and so on.

Many other parts of the country are completely artificial, and the result of billions of invested infrastructure that the "locals" didn't pay for. I bet whatever part of the country you choose to reside in is reliant in some way on government spending and infrastructure. And you certainly would expect that in the event of a natural disaster someone would pick up the costs so that you could get back to making toothpicks, raising chickens, growing corn or whatever it is that your part of the world does "best".

Re:You lived below sea level

[Anonymous Coward]

The city is BELOW sea level. Which part of that statement DON'T you understand?

I had trouble understanding the part where the city is NOT BELOW sea level. One of the things I enjoyed pointing out to the fundie nutjobs was that if Katrina really was an act of God against a sinful New Orleans, then their God is not only a pretty shitty hurricane driver (having to flatten three states of shoreline to get there? Please!) but He barely even wet the feet of the whores and drunkards of the French Quarter.

Now, the SUBURBS are below sea level. After the main port city was established, people just kept on building more and more houses, right down into the swamps and even onto blobs of dirt in the Gulf from dredging the Mississippi. The houses out there sit on pilings driven into the ground, not to raise them up over floods, but because even with the swamps drained, the ground isn't stable enough to hold the weight of a house. Of course as the swampland continues to sink, the houses are lifted up off the ground by their pilings, cracking and/or exposing foundataions, so it wasn't like a hurricane was needed in order to reveal how bad an idea that was.

Re:You lived below sea level

[HolyCrapSCOsux]

I live in Vegas. We don't really get "weather" here. it rains a couple times a year, and gets a bit windy every now and then, but that's about it... 3000 feet or so above sea level. Floods when it rains, but that is largely conreolled through detention basins... No Tornados, no hurricanes, earthquackes don't generally propagate this far. Nope. I think we're pretty much natural disaster free here.

Re:You lived below sea level

[RESPAWN]

Here's an interesting question: did the French that founded the city have any way to measure sea level in 1718?

Next question: when was it determined that parts of New Orleans were up to 10 feet below sea level?

Third question: what level of development had the city undergone when it was determined how much of it was below sea level?

Last question: what would have been the costs to pack up the entire fuckin' city and move it further in-land?

Re:You lived below sea level

[japhering]

Amen!

Re:You lived below sea level

[Overzeetop]

Virginia, in the mountains. Yes, we get hurricanes. Yes, we get flooding. Yes we get earthquakes (well, techincally - the worst was back in the 1860s and it was only a 5.9). It's actually pretty stable here, to be honest, but it doesn't take Uncle Sam's untold Billions just to keep us out of trouble. And I don't really expect "disaster relief" on the order of $150,000 per person. (Estimates of the total federal tab are as high as $300B for Katrina, and news sources have quoted 2 million people were displaced)

I'm not saying people shouldn't live there, I'm saying I don't want my FEDERAL dollars spent on propping it up. If you want to live somewhere that mother nature hates, be my guest - just pay for the levies and disaster cleanup with your own damned money. Buy insurance if you think you could have a big event.

And I can't believe there are people actually implying that it's a race thing. I know, some were joking. It's just a good thing I didn't mention any mid-west casinos being in the red, oops...sorry - that was a bit off color, but hey, my favorite football team plays in DC ;-) Seriously, I don't really give a damned who lives there - you could put the new headquarters for the Swedish Bikini Team there and I'd say let 'em drown.

Re:You lived below sea level

[Anonymous Coward]

A farmer....on /.????

Re:You lived below sea level

[identity0]

What I don't understand is how you can be such a huge, rich country, claim to be the greatest country on Earth, and yet you can't do what the Dutch have done with a quarter of their country to one city on your coast? Heck, even the Italians managed to do it for over a millenia - Venice was founded some time between 400 and 800 AD.

Why can't America do it right in one city?

Re:You lived below sea level

[Derg]

I live in Racine, WI. Beautiful little city, south of Milwaukee (born and raised, 20 years) and north of Chicago.
I live and work about 1/2 mile west of Lake Michigan and as such, have a meteorlogical buffer; little snow, 15 degrees cooler on average during the summer (Milwaukee baked a couple weeks back, we barely broke a sweat). Not to mention all the Wi-Fi a guy can handle, three of the best bakeries in the universe within a 5 minute bike ride, and living on the 3rd story of a building on top of a huge hill. No floods, tornados, earthquakes or anything.

If the great lakes flood, I'm screwed, but given my altitude I'd just hop in and swim away. ;P

Re:You lived below sea level

[Cylix]

Yeah, I think nature did a pretty good job of "packing up" the city.

Re:You lived below sea level

[RESPAWN]

Not really. At least not in the sense of a permanent move, which is what I was suggesting. People are still moving back. Another of my co-workers just moved back last weekend, as a matter of fact.

Re:You lived below sea level

[kfg]

A farmer....on /.????

Two groups of people were the first to exploit the personal computer for business reasons (after the computer hobbiests themselves):

Accountants and farmers. Farming is an applied science and its products are market commodities. When the back country Laotian rice farmers were asked what they really needed to make their lives easier they asked for Internet access, so that they could track markets and get the best price for their crops, which would otherwise allow them to help themselves with their own money.

Oh, and while my mother grew up on a legitimate commercial farm (destroyed by hurricane; twice) I'm just a small scale subsistence farmer, plus whatever for some friends.

KFG

Re:You lived below sea level

[vonhammer]

Name the last Category 3 hurricane (or equivalent) to hit Venice or the Netherlands. The Gulf of Mexico gets several per year and the odds are much higher that another will hit New Orleans vs. an equivalent storm hitting The Netherlands or Venice.

Re:You lived below sea level

[hador_nyc]

What I don't understand is how you can be such a huge, rich country, claim to be the greatest country on Earth, and yet you can't do what the Dutch have done with a quarter of their country [minbuza.nl] to one city on your coast? Heck, even the Italians managed to do it for over a millenia - Venice was founded some time between 400 and 800 AD. Why can't America do it right in one city?

simple answer... we have the technology... even if we had to ask the Dutch to show us what to do, but we choose not to spend the money on it. right or wrong is not my point, but the cities defenses were designed for a category 3 storm.. at best .. I've heard a "2.5" really. Obviously, anyone over at the National Weather Service will tell you that New Orleans has a good chance of being hit or side-swiped by even a level 5 storm at least once every couple of decades. My guess is that someone figured it'd be easier to simply rebuild then to build the defenses to take a bigger hit. Much the same could be said for my city, NYC. The powers that be allowed the infrastructure to degrade to the point that during my childhood of the 80s it was AWFUL. The bridges, tunnels, and all the rest where down right dangerous by the end of the 80s. Now the city is spending a HUGE sum of money upgrading and reparing these structures; a sum that is far greater than maintaining them properly would have been.

We can do things right here, but often the will weakens with time. After all, those bridges I speak of did hold up quite well considering, and none have fallen. Fortunately, most, if not all, are now getting the attention they need.

Re:You lived below sea level

[Anonymous Coward]

I do not think you completely understand. Parts of the city are below sea level, but I live near Audubon park , and I live at 15 foot above sea level. Suburban sprawl has pushed housing into at risk areas. And contrary to popular belief, New Orleans was not built as a coastal city. Oil exploitation and Mississippi river containment have resulted in massive lost of coastal wetlands, bringing the Gulf into NOLA's back yard. Are you willing to have no grain shipped out of the plains or have the oil shutoff? The people of New Orleans are paying the price of the previous generations failure.

Another point I would like to make is that risk of flooding in a particualar neighborhood does not correspond to rich and poor. The lower 9th used to be white, working class, and has existed for quite a long time. Like many urban neighborhoods, it suffered from white flight and the resulting cycle of crime and poverty. The end of the city was devastated because of the funneling effect of the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet, or Mr. GO, and poor levee maintenance. Some of the most expensive homes in New Orleans were near the 17th street canal and were a complete loss.

Much of what happened is because of what the people of SE Louisiana failed to do, but the idea that the city is not worth saving is a myth. Do not beleive what you see on Fox or CNN. What they say has little connection to what is really going on.

Re:You lived below sea level

[cowscows]

You're underinformed, and if you understood what the city and port of new orleans and the rest of southern louisiana provided the rest of the country, perhaps your selfishness would cause you to reverse your opinion.

A huge amount of oil, seafood, and other cargo all move through the local ports. The wetlands of southern louisiana are incredibly productive in terms of biology and seafood, despite the fact that they've been destroyed by the carelessness of the energy industry. Southern Louisiana has suffered mightily from the "progress" that the growth of the USA has demanded from the oil companies. The federal government did not build the levees to protect our shoreline, they built it to try to duplicate the protection that those wetlands provided us with before they let industry destroy it.

A lot of us gulf coast residents are sick and tired of a large number of Americans turning their backs on their fellow citizens, trying to convinces themselves that we somehow deserved it, in order to clear their consciences of their failure to help their fellow man. We're sick and tired of people like you who don't really know a damn thing about this area telling us how worthless it is, and whining about a couple dozen billion dollars for a government that spends hundreds of billions without blinking an eye.

Come down here and drive through some of the neighborhoods, talk to people who lost everythign through no fault of their own, see how hard many of us are working to rebuild our homes, and then tell us that we're not worth helping.

Re:You lived below sea level

[cayenne8]

"The city is BELOW sea level. Which part of that statement DON'T you understand?"

There are other cities below sea level...The Dutch figured Amsterdam was important enough to protect it...is NOLA not as important to the US? If not on a historical basis...it is good business. NOLA is a major port city...read some of the other posts on here. We support energy refinement, drilling and importation that nowhere else in the country will do. It has to be where it is with regard to the MS river and the sea....

Not to mention, it is about 288 years old..older than the US itself...they really didn't have the tools to measure the height of the city w/regards to sealevel.

There's lots of cities in danger due to location...much of CA is on a fault line...we gonna move them when next one hits? NY is a major terrorist target..wanna move them? Oh, by the way, there is a hurricane doomsday scenario for NYC too...and they are WAY overdue for a city killer like NOLA faced. Think we'll write them off too when it happens?

C'mon, is this supposed to be the UNITED States of America...we're all in this together...why not take some billions we're sending to foreigners, and spend it on a historical and financially important city, to permanetly protect it from the sea?

Re:You lived below sea level

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, except for that whole no water in the desert thing.

Re:You lived below sea level

[cayenne8]

"There is a significant difference between "free from any sort of natural disadvantages" and building a city below sea level, in a bowl, on the coast, in the known path of major hurricanes, at the mouth of one of the largest river systems in the world, adjacent to an artificial lake and surrounded by swamp and marshland."

Yeah, those guys 288 years ago really should have researched it better before building a city there.

Also, the city SHOULD have survived. The hurricane did miss..and we got hit with less than CAT 3 forces. It turns out the Corps of Engineers didn't build the levee system to the strength they should have. This disaster is a man made one....and I'm afraid those idiots, that aren't answerable to anyone, are gonna short cut and do the idiot thing again.

NOLA should be as important to the US as Amsterdam is to the Dutch. If not for historical reasons, then for solid financial reasons...see some of the other posts on here about that.

Re:You lived below sea level

[cayenne8]

"A lot of us gulf coast residents are sick and tired of a large number of Americans turning their backs on their fellow citizens, trying to convinces themselves that we somehow deserved it, in order to clear their consciences of their failure to help their fellow man."

Hehehe..I hear ya man. I'm still for seceding from the union, and turning off the oil and gas lines outside our state, and then seeing if anyone notices us?

Hell, we'll sell to the US directly, and become wealthy and rebuild the wetlands ourselves.

Oh well, so much for day dreaming....

Re:You lived below sea level

[955301]

I had trouble understanding the part where the city is NOT BELOW sea level

The part that's ALSO SINKING you mean?

Re:You lived below sea level

[Anonymous Coward]

I would say you should look at the disaster that spawned the Delta Works in The Netherlands. A freak storm combined with high tide and about the most unfavorable winds possible, combined to form a swell in excess of the storm that hit New Orleans. This flooded a good part of the country needless to say, the response was to massively increase the hieght and width of the defensive walls and to greatly shorten the shore length so as to make it impossible to happen again. End result is that Dutch dams well exceed the height of dams found around New Orleans. If Katrina were to have hit The Netherlands it simply wouldn't have flooded.

Re:You lived below sea level

[HolyCrapSCOsux]

That is merely a logistics issue. I don't think a lack of something is a natural disaster. We do have Lake Mead. If it emptied overnight, that would be a natural disaster. But I think only a meteor or something similar can move 38 billion cubic meters of water overnight.

Re:You lived below sea level

[FleaPlus]

What I don't understand is how you can be such a huge, rich country, claim to be the greatest country on Earth, and yet you can't do what the Dutch have done with a quarter of their country to one city on your coast? Heck, even the Italians managed to do it for over a millenia - Venice was founded some time between 400 and 800 AD.

I wasn't aware that Italy and the Netherlands were subject to hurricanes.

Re:You lived below sea level

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, I am sorry for everyone who had to go through that mess, especially the critically un-informed people. However, anyone with one eye and half a brain, could have easily seen this coming years, if not decades ahead of time. It IS your fault for staying there, and I will help as I can, but I'll call you a real dumbass as I give what I can.

Besides, if you are going to rebuild, what the heck is wrong with 30-50 miles upstream?

Re:You lived below sea level

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, so let me get this straight...

Living on an active fault line: Okay.
Living in the middle of "tornado alley": Okay.
Living on a flood plain: Not okay.

It's not just the historic things that are being preserved, it's everything people have known. Why in the world would someone want to stay where it feels like home? Not everyone can just pack up and leave.

A MAJOR part of the local economy is the fishing industry. People have grown up being fishermen and have done so their entire lives. Some of my uncles are that way, as well as some of my friends. Try to imagine working in IT your whole life and then suddenly all electronics did not work at all. Period. You wouldn't know what to do. It's the same principle if you took all, or the vast majority, of fishermen out of the waters they've traveled their entire lives and threw them somewhere else.

And as for your gripe about tax dollars, so perhaps we should just stop sending out hurricane hunters? They're USAF personnel last I've known. Oh, and how about stopping project VORTEX because we already know tornadoes spin around and destroy stuff, so we don't need those NSSL folks. Let's shut down all of the seismic sensors and lay off all the USGS people because who needs to monitor that stuff anyway? Just let the earthquakes, tornadoes and hurricanes take it away. Stop wasting my tax dollars so you can be safe.

It's people like you that bring the collective intelligence spiraling downward. Think for once.

Re:You lived below sea level

[mambodeath]

I think it is a collosal waste of money, and investing $B in infrastructure is just going to encourage people to move to an area which is inherently unsafe and very expensive to make livable

this is a great idea, but most people are all talk and no action. i was born and raised in new orleans, and tell everyone NOT to encourage people to live there by doing a few simple things. it's easy:

just don't drink coffee, don't grow or consume agricultural products that might go through that port (e.g. corn, soybeans, wheat) and please don't use natural gas or petroleum. we all know how those oil guys are ruining the marshes, and if they have jobs they'll live there. it's the same with the longshoremen. thinking of holding your annual convention in new orleans? think not!

don't listen to any music that comes out of there and don't watch or rent movies that were filmed there. don't watch, play, or participate in any way in any football/basketball games that take place there, especially if it's the BCS championship, super bowl, or ncaa final four. next year's nba all-star game is off limits, too. never go down there for mardi gras, and please don't tell anybody about it. the videos of co-eds flashing their tits don't help, either. please don't encourage people to go there by watching. jazzfest is totally out of the question.

oh yeah. and don't read any fiction that romanticizes that place. talk to your local school board and have them remove books, stories, and plays where the action takes place there. we don't want kids getting ideas about going there.

i try, but everybody wants their goddamn coffee!

Re:You lived below sea level

[StarfishOne]

True, we don't have the tropical hurricanes; looking at the definitions the Beaufort scale defines a hurricane as anything above 11 Beaufort, so based on that I can tell you there have been hurricanes in The Netherlands, just not the tropical ones. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale )

Just let me state that one should most definitely not underestimate the power of the North Sea in combination with a a heavy storm during spring surge, as we have found out the hard way over the centuries. It might not be a hurricane, but it can be a huge monster just pounding on your entire countries' coastline.

The Dutch dikes all have a minimum height of 7.65 meters designed for a 1:4000 to a 1:10.000 year superstorm compared to the "the levees were designed to hold back (up to 15 feet of tidal surge)". (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/9/1 2/210912.shtml ) In case things go wrong, there are also plans and designated areas which will be allowed to flood in case things go wrong, trying to save important areas.

IMHO, The key issue why all of this happened is long-term thinking (or better, lack thereof) and doing ones best to be a step ahead. The state of the New Orleans levees combined with the fact that hurricanes do frequently appear in that area and not being adequately prepared is playing Russian roulette every hurricane season! "[..] New Orleans levee system should fail with an annual probability of 0.5%" Source: http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:gfgpu5QskQgJ: www.livejournal.com/users/jdthood/1178.html+new+or leans+height+of+dikes&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1 (sorry for the long url; page has been deleted so I have to use the Google cache)

Re:You lived below sea level

[Anonymous Coward]

Everybody else?

Re:You lived below sea level

[cowscows]

For any one individual, just buying a house somewhere else isn't such a big deal, but you need to realize the scope of what happened. There were thousands and thousands of homes destroyed. And thousands and thousands of businesses destroyed. And in the surrounding parishes of New Orleans, there are hundreds of thousands of people who rely on the economics of the city for their well being. You can't just move that number of people around willy-nilly and expect it to work out. You'd really have to move the entire city. Let's look at why that wouldn't work.

Besides the fact that moving 30-50 miles upstream would require abandoning large parts of the city that were not destroyed, including neighborhoods as historic and culturally rich as any that you'll find in this country, there's a lot of practical reasons. Like the billions and billions of dollars worth of still useable infrastructure and buildings that would have to be rebuilt. Or the fact that there is still a giant port that New Orleans operates around and which exists where it does for some strategic value. Or simply the fact that you'd have to find somewhere else to put the city. Any location that makes sense for a city of the size of New Orleans already has a city built on it.

People live(d) in New Orleans for a number of reasons. One of those reasons are as simple as having been born here and not having the resources to leave. Heck, some people didn't even have the money to evacuate for a few days for the storm. Some of the other of the other reasons why people might live here range from social factors, to economic, to cultural, to sentimental. A whole bunch of things that are not easily duplicated elsewhere.

Anyone who's paid attention to history knows that Los Angeles is going to get hit by a big earthquake again in the coming years/decades. All of florida gets wrecked by hurricanes pretty regularly if you look at things at that time scale. It's only a matter of time before someone blows up part of New York again. The super-volcano at Yellowstone national park is already 30,000 years over-due for a massive eruption that will destroy half the country. I guess we're a nation of dumbasses.

Re:You lived below sea level

[anaesthetica]

Why can't America do it right in one city?

Because we don't care. And our country isn't the size of a postage stamp, like Holland or Venice, so reclaiming tiny bits of below-sea level land isn't crucial to the nation's survival.

Re:You lived below sea level

[Anonymous Coward]

The French Quarter (and more) are built on rock. They aren't sinking at all. They also had little trouble with Katrina in that area.

#think

[hxftw]

so it can be destroyed and replaced again?

Re:#think

[Qzukk]

Well, we're trying to catch up to Japan. We're not quite there yet, but hopefully we've learned enough that by the time New Orleans is destroyed again we'll be able to build New Orleans-3 overnight.

To answer your question, YES.

[SlashdotAnswerGuy]

Is New Orleans bouncing back from Hurricane Katrina with the most advanced telecom system in the country?

Yes, yes it is.

In fact, New Orleans' broadband is so good, Korean tourists are flocking there to mob-harass the local Web pariahs.

New Orleans' broadband is so good, Al Gore is working on a movie advocating we de-decentralize the Internet, putting New Orleans right in the middle.

New Orleans broadband is so good, mint juleps are already outselling Mountain Dew as the official drink of computer nerds.

New Orleans broadband is so good, girls at the last Mardi Gras were flashing their MySpace pages in exchange for beads.

Hope that answers your question!

Sincerely,
SlashdotAnswerGuy

Holy crap...that might be the worst designed

[ChoppedBroccoli]

site I've ever seen. About 10% of that page is actually the article content! The rest is just links and ads.

Re:Holy crap...that might be the worst designed

[Anonymous Coward]

Clicking on print gives a nice one page article you should try it sometimes.

Wait and see

[rainer_d]

Let's hope the Telco's equipment also works underwater - or is at least water-proof.
Because one thing is sure: New Orleans is going so sink into the ocean rather sooner than later. Just the people (left) living there haven't caught up to the reality, it seems.
But the term "sinking billions in infrastructure" suddenly makes more sense, right?

Re:Wait and see

[Lodragandraoidh]

Let's hope the Telco's equipment also works underwater - or is at least water-proof.

The latest pedistals are basically a sealed heavy-duty fibreglass shell that fits over the top of the terminals that are positioned near the top of the shell - secured at the bottom. So the terminals and ends of the underground cables should remain relatively dry in flooding conditions.

Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin

You probably already know this, but for the benefit of those not in the know: edlin duplicates a subset of the functionality of the 'ed' line editor that is the underlying editor for the 'vi' page-editor. ed was written by Ken Thompson for Unix in fact - a long time before edlin came along. 'ed' is still available on all Unix and Linux systems. edlin, while still available on some of the latest versions of Windows, is of limited usefulness since it can not handle long file names. I do have a soft spot in my heart for edlin though - it was the first editor I used under DOS - before I acquired WordStar and later WordPerfect.

Of course, now I use emacs and OO - a good mixture of timeless and the new.

Wikipedia links on ed and edlin for software archaeologists.

Re:Wait and see

[rainer_d]

> You probably already know this, but for the benefit of... ...snip....

All well, but at least in Unix-land, they did get vi(1) on board - which MSFT failed to do.

FreeBSD's single user mode still doesn't have vi(1) but ed(1), BTW - which I cannot use at all...

Re:Wait and see

[mabu]

Let's hope the Telco's equipment also works underwater - or is at least water-proof.
Because one thing is sure: New Orleans is going so sink into the ocean rather sooner than later. Just the people (left) living there haven't caught up to the reality, it seems.

Why are ignorant responses like this getting modded up?

New Orleans is not "sinking" by any significant measure. The coastline and wetlands of South Louisiana are eroding, that is true, but all things considered, New Orleans being a few feet (IN SOME AREAS) below sea level is not the precarious dance-with-disaster that some idiots on Fox news may tell you.

If it weren't for the faulty levees built by the Army Corps of Engineers, New Orleans would have been fine. The Corps killed the city through their incompetence, and that was before they let things get worse by not acting sooner once the damage had been done. There are levees all over the world that, if they failed, would flood many areas. Rivers swell and man beats them back with levees. Whether you're above or below sea level is moot.

What reality do people living there need to catch up to? Moving into an earthquake, tornado, tsunami, avalanche, mudslide, forest fire, or volcano zone? Boneheaded responses like yours really piss me off. There are natural dangers everywhere, and the people living in New Orleans are no less irresponsible in their choice of where and how to live than any other place in America. In fact, I'd rather have 48 hours warning of impending disaster than wake up in the middle of the night to a 9.0 earthquake!

OMG

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a racist bigot!!! NAZI!!! OMG You must Love that Hitler Bush!! CHimpy mcSHRUB he's such a terrorist!! You hate black people just like HIM!!

I won't sleep...

[bdonalds]

...until every one of the children in New Orleans has a $100 laptop!

Let Telecom Be Just the Beginning...

[X86Daddy]

I've been musing about this since Katrina... There is a lot of emotional power behind the "rebuild New Orleans" concept, and it will most likely happen. As huge parts of it were destroyed, that rebuilding process will be from the foundations up.

During the Civil War, Sherman burned Atlanta to the ground. Now, as far as cities in the Southern US goes, it's pretty damn advanced. It most assuredly would not be what it is today had that event not occured. Savannah, Georgia was "spared" by Sherman, and the place seems allergic to progress. At least part of that comes from a valid desire to preserve the historic elements that have been there for centuries. NOLA faces some of those concerns, but only in the sections that weren't destroyed...

I very seriously hope to see, perhaps in 20 years or so, the beginnings of one of the first NEW cities in the US in quite some time. The causality may suck, but life has already delivered those lemons... I want to see a 21st century city over here, and it has a chance to happen. Failing that, I'm hoping some growth happens around one of the spaceport sites.

Re:Let Telecom Be Just the Beginning...

[slapout]

So the answer to progress is....burning things down?

Re:Let Telecom Be Just the Beginning...

[trytoguess]

I think "change" is the nice way of saying it. :)

Re:Let Telecom Be Just the Beginning...

[Anonymous Coward]

"So the answer to progress is....burning things down?"

This is the Department of Homeland Security. By advocating an improved society as a result of destroying American cities, all of you in this thread have been identified as suspects in supporting terrorist plots to destroy American cities. When the black helicopter arrives, simply step outside in plain sight with your hands up, and be prepared to surrender your admin password. Thank you.

(Please type the word in this image: "Brothel." WTF?)

Hole in the Water

[Anonymous Coward]

And people accuse boat owners of throwing money into a hole in the water........!

This is an entirely new level.

Dumb question about new infrastructure

[smooth wombat]

Going on the assumption that instead of laying copper the folks doing the reconstruction will be laying fiber, will fiber work if it's underwater? Or will the water, once it gets through the coating, degrade the signal so much that you can't use fiber?

Re:Dumb question about new infrastructure

[Anonymous Coward]

That is a bit of a dumb question, but whatever. They tackled the water+fiber problem fine for the ocean crossings, I'm guessing they'll have a decent solution for NO.

Things are improving....

[bjgeraci]

Things are getting better each day here in New Orleans.

One problem that is still present is phone service. A lot of people I know are primarily using cellular phones as their main numbers since the landlines are not reliable / available in some areas. To BellSouth's credit, they have taken this opportunity to replace the copper wires throughout the city with fiber optics, which will provide more bandwidth. But this will take some time to do (and it does not take an inordinate amount of extra time than replacing the lines with new copper wires).

A lot of people in the city are now talking about scanning their important pictures into the computer and sending them off to relatives out of town (by CD or email).

Some of the lessons learned from Katrina in New Orleans include:

• Offsite backups to other cities
• While cellular voice calls were not available, cellular text messaging was possible in the days after Katrina
• Rendundant lines / methods of communications is needed with no one point of failure. Before Katrina, this lesson was demonstrated when a large collection of fiber lines were cut accidentally, severing communications in a large region
• First responders should be able to communicate easily with each other. This was an issue after 9/11, and was still an issue for Katrina.

It is hoped that the lessons learned here help prepare other people in other places for the next emergency.

Re:Things are improving....

[Keyframe2]

>A lot of people I know are primarily using cellular phones as their main numbers

well, welcome to europe then :)

and while we are at it.....

[Chineseyes]

and while we are at it..... lets stop subsidizing farmers, airlines, defense contractors because they all operate businesses that are inherently risky. lets stop repeatedly sending firefighters to people on the west who live in wildfire prone areas let their homes burn to the ground. lets stop repeatedly rescuing people who build homes on hills where landslides are known to occur. lets stop having our tax dollars being used to help insure people in ALL flood prone areas. lets not forget that when another massive earthquake hits LA or SF and destroys a good portion of either city lets NOT rebuild there either what a HUGE waste of money that would be just make everyone who lives there move to a place where the ground doesn't shake so violently.

Re:and while we are at it.....

[oyenstikker]

I think what he's trying to say is:

You want to live there? YOU PAY FOR IT. Don't make me subsidize your ocean view just because you chose a risky place to live, and I chose a place that requires me to get some good excersize with a snow shovel.

I tend to agree with him. I will not oppose spending money on rescue efforts, but I don't want my money to be spent to set up a situation requiring another rescue effor every year.

(And because people seem to like bringing it up, I don't want my money being spent to bomb Iraq, Afghanistan, or Lebenon either. Nor do I want it spent on Bush's adversitements, illegal wire tapping, hookers^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hinterns, campaign funds, bridges to nowhere, pension bailouts, corporate welfare, carnivore, Condi's airfare, security hole-ridden electronic voting machines, prosecuting peaceful pot-heads, rating video games, or my senator who doesn't even live in my state (I'm talking to YOU Hillary!).)

Read Bastiat

[buttfuckinpimpnugget]

Any bets on how long untill someone whips out the broken window fallacy in this thread?

Scaremongering might have been too strong a word

[blueZ3]

But come on, the rate of cellphone adoption these days makes it unlikely that there's anyone being attacked during a power outage who is relying soley on their VOIP phone to call 911?

I don't necessarily agree or disagree 100% with the ad, I just thought it was interesting that AT&T thought they needed a "preemptive strike" against VOIP. I wasn't aware that the uptake was high enough to rate that kind of a strategy.

White?

[2bitcomputers]

Whats with all the "white" comments thrown into your post?

Or have you never seen a non-white person live in suburbia?

If you want to rant about yuppies in the suburbs thats fine, but why make it a racial issue?

What is with that web page?

[etresoft]

TFA takes up, maybe, 10% of the space on that page. The rest is all ads. I had to click the print button just to read it. That's just too much.

I'm sorry but I've been away for a few days...

[MarkByers]

Did Slashdot decide to get some editors whilst I wasn't watching? I must have missed the memo...

I'm going to miss complaining about all the dupes and typos. For me, it's a part of what Slashdot is.

Your Hell

[Doc Ruby]

Yeah, let's just let a major, ancient American city get destroyed by our government's incompetence and just let it rot, because we just don't care. Later, when the tornadoes/earthquakes/droughts/locusts come through your town, we'll cut our losses by writing you off.

Who the hell are these fake "Americans" who don't understand even the most basic concept of Union? They hate America, and must be kept away from any kind of power or influence. Or we'll all be left with our own post-katrina cities.

Re:Your Hell

[Anonymous Coward]

Ancient?!? You do know America is a recent thing, right?

Re:Your Hell

[Doc Ruby]

More Anonymous Coward hatred of an America you see as disposable.

Re:Your Hell

[cayenne8]

"Ancient?!? You do know America is a recent thing, right?"

Well, NOLA is older than the US. I believe it was established in about 1718....so, if we survive...we'll be coming up on our 300th birthday soon.

Re:Your Hell

[stunt_penguin]

That's not that old either. The city I live in has been around for more than 900 years, and it's fairly young in global terms. The cities that American bombs pounded the shit out in recent years are more than ten times older than any facet of Americanism, whatever that is.

Almost no part of American culture or settlement can truly be considered ancient. Learn to look at things in perspective.

Learning through pain, Soviet Union style

[Catbeller]

I'm taking this off-topic chance to post a thought I just had:

The post I responded to represents, to me, everything that has broken down since the "conservatives" have conquered the media, government, the courts and the zietgeist. The basic premise is: fuck you if you're too stupid to be rich.

This are George Hearst's grandchildren. William Randolph Hearts's children. Reagan was the dumb son, and Bush II the idiot son of the dumb son. The basic problem is that they value capital, but not people. Corporations are a symptom of their outlook. Let the smart win and the dumb get out of the way.

For this, we've a dying economy -- for those who aren't already wealthy. We're entrenched in another oil war, using the poor strivers who comprise the army to win wealth for those whose children will never serve. We've a dead health care system that is based on profit rather than healthcare, so we shuck the sick and bundle up the young and healthy into corporate packages, dumping those who don't make the cut onto what remains of the liberal subsidized healthcare created during an earlier, saner era. We're borrowing from abroad to finance oceans of tax cuts for the very wealthiest, who are poised to buy up the real estate plunging in cost as we hit bottom in the next decade. We've little manufacturing, so we can't create wealth, really. The tax revenues shortly are going to fund 1) interest on the borrowed money, paid to those who we gave the money originally, as interest to the loans taken to give them their tax cuts... and 2) guns to fight a Forever War.

This can't work, of course, and like the Soviet Union, we're going to have to crash, bottom out, to shake out the cognitive dissonant dingdongs who bankrupted us from the ranks of heroes. It's going to take a long time. See ya in a couple decades.

New Orleans Bounce

[Doc Ruby]

I lived in New Orleans for years before Katrina created Lake George, and I've returned several times since the storm and flood. I talk with people living there all the time.

New Orleans is not "bouncing back". As usual, some rich people are getting extra care and money, like the people getting the fat contracts in this article. The local poor people, though desperate for jobs and rebuilding, are cut out by imported Mexican and Central American workers, mostly illegal, all subsidized by living cheap in their own countries when they leave. Imported by fat American contractors, also mostly from out of state. Meanwhile, they still haven't hauled away the trash from the storm 355 days ago.

New Orleans isn't on TV much anymore. But it's still screwed. It's still a great place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. I hope these new infrastructures are worthwhile investments in its future, but it's certainly not "bouncing" yet. What it really needs is more of you to come visit, spend some time and money seeing it for yourself. It's cheap and easy to get to by plane, rail and road, it's cheap to eat, party and learn there. And even if it never bounces back, at least you'll have seen America's most magical city for yourself before it's finally gone after 300 years - on our watch.

Re:New Orleans Bounce

[thorkyl]

As an adjuster that was there for 7 months after the storm hit let me give my perspective and my rant. I had one Police Officer tell me when he saw that I was armed, "You know, its nice to know we finally out gun the bastards" NOLA is an entitlement city. Everyone thinks they are entitled to every penny they can get Look at the FEMA money that poured out to the residents (more than in 2004 florida). I had more than one insured tell me that it was my duty and responsibility as a white man to provide for the poor blacks in NOLA all I can say is, Nagin you have your chocolate city back enjoy the poverty, the crime and the 34 murders a month no one wants to move back except the crooks they are just pissed since Lousiana is the only entitlement state All other stated don't care that your great great grandpappy was a slave nor are they going to give you any money for that fact either

Re:New Orleans Bounce

[Doc Ruby]

Louisiana is the only entitlement state? The Red States are all Welfare States. And that's just the most superficial example of White Privilege.

So I'm not going to accept your "perspective", of an insurance adjuster in a devastated, but insured city who arrived only to work in the worst disaster. I'm not surprised a guy whose job is to save insurance companies as much money as possible returns from the biggest claimant ever without sympathy. I'm surprised only that you'd admit it, and have lost touch with sympathy so much that you'd think I'd respect your opinion as "fair" when your interest conflict is so clear.

BTW, 1/3 of those police officers deserted in the hurricane - and they weren't so great in "good times", either. As for Nagin, his reelection is part of what's still wrong with New Orleans. But that doesn't make the city deserve more destruction. It deserves more help.

Re:New Orleans Bounce

[cowscows]

I second this. Come visit here. Go and have your fun in the french quarter, but make sure to take the time to go see some of the devestation. It's worse than you think it is. Hopefully seeing it will remind you that there are a bunch of human beings who lost a whole lot and could really use some more help. But even if it doesn't bring out your compassion, it should stir a little anger in you. Think back to what you saw on CNN, of the government's response, of how FEMA dealt with the crisis. And then remember that this is the same government that has spent billions and billions of dollars on Homeland security and FEMA to prepare our country for terrorist attacks. And then wonder where all of that money must have gone, when they found themselves completely unable to offer decent assistance for a storm that they knew about for days in advance.

Fixing New Orleans' levees would be a bargin compared to the money DHS is wasting.

Re:New Orleans Bounce

[Anonymous Coward]

Misapplication of statistics. Those may be red states, but by and large, the welfare demographic is neither white or Republican. Why would welfare receipients vote openly against their own interests? Doesn't make sense.

Thats basically saying that since a state's electoral votes went to Bush, all of the voters in that state voted for Bush.

Re:New Orleans Bounce

[Doc Ruby]

What are you talking about? Those Red States are getting all the Federal money, and all the Blue States are paying it. Those Red States are majority White and Republican.

The "statistics" are simple. And the Republican Congress for the past dozen years has funneled the welfare into those states to reward their cronies and to attract more welfare hounds, still mostly White and Republican, to swell their Congressional and Electoral College representation. All while raising the Federal expenses to vast, unprecedented amounts. Which the Blue States will have to pay off, as they're the ones which pay taxes.

The lies that Republicans tell about "independence" and "self sufficiency" and "small government" and "welfare queens" are all that you've got to convince you that those stats are wrong. They're right, and your Red States are Welfare States. Stop propping up their lies with fake "common sense". It's way to expensive.

Re:New Orleans Bounce

[thorkyl]

First of all I work for me, not the insurance company.
Its not my job to save the carrier any money.
Its my job to pay all monies that are due under the policy.

I have been an adjuster for 15 years and NOLA is not the worst natural disaster I have seen
It is the worst man made disaster I have seen.
The fact that NOLA is not being rebuilt it has to do with the residents of NOLA
The bitching, moaning, and complaining that no one is helping them, and yet they will not even go
home and clean up the trash.


So you may think I have a tainted point of view.
Yet every other disaster I have been at the people are at least cleaning
there homes out.
I think the NOLA residents are just waiting for the government to hire them to clean thier homes out.
There is also a differance between welfare and entitlement.
I had one insured, forced insurance by the lender, the house was given to her grandfather since his father was a slave. She was realy pissed and actually called the cops when I explained to her that she did not have enough coverage to pay for all of the damages. Her bigest bitch was that since her home was a slave grant that the insurance company had to pay for all damages.

Now you tell me why she expected the government to cover her losses becouse the government gave the house her.
Her home is still full of trash and mud.

Now I do have respect for those who did go back but not for those who have not yet.

Re:New Orleans Bounce

[mabu]

I can also concurr. I was in the city before, during and after the hurricane. We lost a lot of business post Katrina. Ironically, about half was due to people deciding not to re-open their businesses, and the other half, relocating outside the state. What's interesting is that every client of ours which relocated outside the state didn't take much damage -- they merely availed themselves of the opportunity to jump ship from the state.

The city is a completely different city now. At least 20-30% of the population appears to be permanently gone. I expect New Orleans to look more like Houston in a few years time, with a substantive Mexican population (which was basically non-existent before). And ironically, even with all the immigrant labor around here, half the restaurants and shops are still not open.

As far as tech wiring... during the hurricane, Nagin's technology adviser, Craig Meffert, whom I know to be a very capable guy, set up a very impressive WAN on-the-fly downtown to keep city officials online (I was particularly amused listening to press conferences from Nagin's temporary base downtown in a hotel, with the sound of an APC UPS going off in the background). Ray Nagin, Mayor of New Orleans was previously the president and general manager of Cox Communications, so these weren't typical "politicians". They had their shit together despite what the mainstream media may claim. Even before the feds had anything up and running, the locals had technology deployed and were in communication with critical areas. New Orleans had been working on citywide WIFI long before Katrina, but like everywhere else, the telcos got their panties in a bunch over the prospect.

Also since the city is below sea level, most of the infrastructure wiring, from cable to telephone and fiber was actually run above ground, so it wasn't as difficult to restore after the flood as it would have been if there were more buried cables. I shudder to think how long the communications system would be out if it were all buried -- some areas of New Orleans east were wired below ground, and they're unlikely to get services for a long time, while most areas of the city now have power and communications (even though there may not be many residents there).

Re:New Orleans Bounce

[fisgreen]

The local poor people, though desperate for jobs and rebuilding, are cut out by imported Mexican and Central American workers, mostly illegal, all subsidized by living cheap in their own countries when they leave. Imported by fat American contractors, also mostly from out of state.

I live in NOLA, and I have to reply to this. It's a tough topic for me, because I still have a hang-up with the "illegal" part of "illegal immigrant". However, it's agonizingly clear that "the local poor people" by in large have no interest in working in rebuilding jobs. Yet there are no shortage of demonstrations for more and better rebuilt public housing--subsidized living on the cheap, not to mention endless whining about renewing government emergency aid programs. Meanwhile, the Latino workers who have flooded in are working their asses off to get the job done and make a living.

Oh, yeah, one more thing: a sad number of the "locals" have returned only to engage in spectacularly bloody gang wars.

Re:New Orleans Bounce

[Doc Ruby]

Slavery ended 141 years ago. I don't believe that only 3 generations span over 140 years, especially in New Orleans among the Black population. Even if this person you mention exists, she was lying to you. I don't think that represents the hundreds of thousands of people in New Orleans. I don't know how you pick the people you deal with, but if you believed her story, I'm not surprised you can't tell that she doesn't represent them.

My own experience shows something very different. I know many people who told me stories of personal heroism, risk of life, abandonment of property, in the week during and after Katrina while they helped strangers. And I personally have seen people in neighborhoods there helping each other clean up, rebuild, patrol, do all kinds of things for each other.

New Orleans was a city with something like 40% illiterates. There sure are and were lots of bad people who couldn't take care of themselves. The corrupt welfare system certainly did keep lots of people down - whether more than it helped up or not neither you nor I know.

But the idea that the bad people you met somehow mean that New Orleans deserves the destruction, that they can just clean up the toxic mess that the rest of the country, in voting for our government, let happen though we knew it was inevitable, is worthy of some of the least intelligent among them. Louisiana is legendary for its corrupt politicians, its system that keeps poor people and lower class families from making any changes. The system has failed New Orleans so many ways for so many generations that it's no surprise that it can't just "wake up" from its nightmare, even after a shock like Katrina. The only surprise should be that the rest of the country is so ready to dismiss, forget, write off the city and all its residents. So you couldn't handle New Orleans - you're far from the first. But you blew your chance to learn from the unique experience. And I'm not interested in learning any lessons from you who have no excuse for failing to think clearly about such an important mess that you not only lived through, but that paid your bills for at least a year.

Re:New Orleans Bounce

[Doc Ruby]

What do you do for a living in NOLA? How were you able to return to town, or stay, without your career being interrupted?

How is it clear to you that the local poor people have no interest in working in rebuilding jobs? The poor people I knew when I lived in town have tried to get work, sometimes successfully, but usually not - not when they can't compete with the "immigrants". Many of whom are illegal, regardless of your hangups about the term, because they are not legally entitled to work in the US at all, let alone for the wages illegal to pay anyone. Then they go back to countries so screwed up that they can't accumulate much, and spend their accumulated dollars on cheap stuff. But eventually the transplanted immigrants who stay will find essentially the same economy in which so many poor were trapped for so many generations. Unless we fix that instead of just rebuilding the old one.

New Orleans was a very divided town, between privileged and poor, before the storm. The storm and flood only exaggerated those differences. The New Orleans ability to see only the worst across the Black/White racial divide, and to ignore any common cause, always blows my mind (as I was born and raised in NY, among a pretty ethnically diverse group of relatively wealthy professionals).

Re:New Orleans Bounce

[thorkyl]

Ya know I love battleing with an unarmed man She is 87 years old Now 3 generations you do the math

Re:New Orleans Bounce

[Doc Ruby]

The math says that you're mad at a poor 87 year old woman who lost everything because she hasn't cleaned up a destroyed house packed with mud.

Thanks for clarifying how happy you were to carry a gun around New Orleans, looking for battles with unarmed men.

I hope you're glad that your home is dry and clean today. Which Welfare State would that happen to be in?

Hear.

[Anonymous Coward]

And screw those people commenting about race. As a white guy, I agree with you that it IS a predominantly white group of a-holes benefitting from this rape of Louisiana's environment. I grew up there. My hometown should be underwater in a couple of decades now thanks to oil. Yay.

Why are the cities where they are?

[zippthorne]

Actually.. good ideas all. Those things shouldn't be paid for out of the national till, they should be insured out of the local profits of living in those areas.

New Orleans should stand as a city because it is profitable for it to be there. Not because it is the whim of a few powerful people to spend others' money to establish it there. If that means building a smaller port-city to handle the mississippi traffic, then so be it. It was hubris to reach out beyond what the resources were capable of supporting. They tried to have a large, artistic city, protected from weather, with corrupt government, people on the public dole, and organized crime. Lofty goals all, but some would have to be sacrificed to operate within the available means.

Now I am going to retract a little, and say that for humanitarian reasons, it's perfectly reasonable for national support of a rescue operation. If we're to have a national governance at all, what is the purpose except to provide mutual support in time of disaster or invasion? Rebuilding however is another matter entirely.

At the same time, the government should not be involved in insuring or regulating the price of insurance* of anything. It should be more costly to live in those dangerous places *because of the danger.* People that cannot afford insurance or absorb the cost in the event of disaster should not have governmental support to move into those places.

*regulating insurance should be limited to assuring that contracts are not fraudulent and that legitimate claims are compensated. Insurance companies should be allowed to set prices based on risk. Regulating insurance rates at sub-unity return/risk ensures that insurance carriers must not carry that type of insurance or they will go out of business. Either way, it means no insurance will be available at any price.

Re:Why are the cities where they are?

[cowscows]

New Orleans is where it is for some significant historical reasons, a big one being its position at the shortest distance from the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain. Contrary to popular belief, New Orleans does not all exist below sea level. The original parts of the city were generally built on higher parts, natural levees created by the Mississippi, and are above sea level. These parts of the city did not flood during Katrina, but did have some significant wind damage.

Now, you could make an argument that the federal government should have never gotten involved in building levees to protect the area. But the fact of the matter is, decades ago, the feds decided that New Orleans had value to the country that made it worth investing in. In its distant past, New Orleans was one of the largest cities in the country. In its more recent past, it experienced an oil boom, and there was significant investment. The federal government decided to put the Army Corp of Engineers in charge of designing and building the levees. Whether or not you think they were right to do that doesn't seem to me to have any relevance decades later. Whatever their reasons for doing so were, the feds promised to protect us from hurricanes, and approximately a year ago, they failed to live up to that promise.

Many months after the storm, the Corps produced a report in which they basically admitted that the bulk of the flooding in New Orleans was due to their levees/canal walls failing, and that the levees failed because of combinations of design flaws, poor construction, and lack of maintanence. Then there's the whole way that the administration did its best to delay and stonewall this report until New Orleans was out of most of the country's mind, not to mention the entirely craptastic job they did of helping the city right after the storm.

So what would have happened if the federal government had never agreed to be in charge of the levees? I don't know. What sort of flood protection system would New Orleans/Lousiana have built on their own? Would so many houses have been built in places that ended up under 8' of water a year ago? It's hard to say. But if that is what had happened, then your argument might carry some weight with me. As it is, the federal government is directly responsible for much of the damage here, and they have a responsibility to help us rebuild our lives.

I will not argue with you that our local government's performance has been less than spectacular. But that doesn't change the fact that a large number of american citizens have lost much through no fault of their own, and the majority of what we've gotten from our highest form of government is empty promises.

The Smell

[Apocalypse111]

Great, Wi-Fi all over N.O. Does this mean that I can maybe surf somewhere that doesn't smell of stale urine?

No, that'd mean I'd have to get that kind of access *outside* of N.O. too.

Re:The Smell

[fantasticalmonkey]

"somewhere that doesn't smell of stale urine?"

try having a shower. I can see why they are using fiber instead of copper. It's the best excuse to upgrade really. Ah well

Force Field Time!

[bean123456789]

what the city really needs is a protective force field that is impervious to water, perhaps someday it will become the new Atlantis!

Katrina

[Terminus32]

My gosh, it's been a year already...R.I.P all those who lost their lives in that disaster, and my sympathies to all those who lost loved ones...my thoughts will be with you.

Well, yes.

[Overzeetop]

If you live on a damned fault line, don't ask me for help when you have two houses on the same lot, separated by a brand new ditch.

North Carolina coast? Heck, the barrier islands have been moving for eons. Don't build your new castle on sand and then ask me to pay to keep the beach in place.

Florida? Please...you knew there were hurricanes when you moved there. Build solid, put aside extra money for cleanup after the storm. Don't ask me to foot the bill. Hey, here's an Idea - how about using the STATE money you DON'T spend on snow plows and heating oil to pay for the cleanup.

I'm not adverse to helping folks out. Really. Everybody needs help now and then. Don't you think for the cost of the recovery and the future levies and storm damage, we could just condemn the area and tell eveyone to get the hell out? There are more stable places to build. Those who were smart got insurance, and they'll be reimbursed for unusable property. Those who didn't, well, short of saying tough luck, how about a $5k stipend and a map of the US with places that aren't under sea level highlighted.

Bad things happen all the time, and to be honest, it's not my fault. I'm all for helping get people back moving again. If you build a 100 story building and it's so tall it falls down, you are free to build another one. But I'm not going to pay you to do it. I'm going to tell you to go build ten 10 story buildings. Just because you want to live in a place that can only have 100 story buildings is not my fault.

the seaports are no where near New Orleans

[Anonymous Coward]

they are 50 miles downriver.

Rebuild New Orleans on the north side of Lake Ponchartrain, north of Covington and Hamilton. Leave the Old City and Jackson Square where it is, as it is, a tourist trap.

Most of the businesses have moved into the casino hotels on the waterfront, anyway. There are only Tshirt shops and titty bars in the Veiux Carre, along with subpar restaurants.

Open the levees and give the city back to the gators and snakes.

Re:the seaports are no where near New Orleans

[cayenne8]

"they are 50 miles downriver."

You obviously don't know what you're talking about...the Port of New Orleans has entrances just off Tchopitoulous St. it is a MAJOR port for commercial traffic connecting sea and river. No wonder you posted anon.

Here's a nice little reference about the Port...

Because the Dutch don't have big hurricanes

[Overzeetop]

Well, that just about sums it up.

In today's WSJ, they said all cable needs this

[WillAffleckUW]

If you look at the print edition (sorry, get it delivered at home) of the Wall Street Journal, you'll see an article entitled Cable Industry May Need to Spend Heavily on Broadband Upgrades, which points out that all cable-television providers will very soon need to upgrade their entire networks with fiber optic cables direct to every home.

It only makes sense, in rebuilding the damaged New Orleans, that they would be laying the new tech, rather than lay current standard and have to rip it up in just two to four years.

My brother is a high-speed cable manager in an oceanfront area of California, and when they get a corroded connection, they find it's cheaper to just lay a new line than to try to fix it.

Re:In today's WSJ, they said all cable needs this

[WillAffleckUW]

oops, sorry, got my tags messed up.

is NOLA not as important to the US? No!

[HornWumpus]

Short answer version above. Justification below.

Amsterdam is the biggest city in the Netherlands. New Orleans is not as important to the US economy as Amsterdam is to the Netherlands. That much should be obvious.

I will grant that the port of New Orleans and the New Orleans Off Shore Oil Terminal are vital to the Mississippi Basin and then some. You will note that both were back up and running well enough, soon enough to handle the 2005 crop/driving season. Their flood protection was apparently up to the task. Bet they built their own levee network with their own money and paid for repairs themselves. (Granting they were business expenses, hence deductions, hence subsidised to nutjobs.)

In any case the Dutch spent about 15 billion US dollars over 20+ years connecting their barrier islands with sea walls/floating barriers/gates to the sea to protect about 15 million mostly middle class people. Suggesting such an expense for the 2 million people in the Mississippi delta is unreasonable.

It should also be noted the Dutch tax base is local to the problem. Perhaps Lousiana can come up with a way to pay for a big chunk of a proposed project.

Slums are in low cost areas for a reason. When you rebuild you don't rebuild shitholes. Poor people pretty much have to live where they can afford to. That will not be New Orleans for the immediate future. If you're town has an little nineth ward it will likely have one untill local authorities take steps to break it up.

Only the federal government built new slums. They have largely stopped. Don't expect them to make an exception for NO.

Re:is NOLA not as important to the US? No!

[Catbeller]

"It should also be noted the Dutch tax base is local to the problem. Perhaps Lousiana can come up with a way to pay for a big chunk of a proposed project."

Or perhaps we can stop pretending that we are a series of gated communities who are not a part of a federal union. Federal taxes built the highway networks and the suburbs that sprang up around them, subsidize the oil companies that fuel them, and constructed the canal that killed the ninth ward. If you can spend the federal money to build up rich gated (metaphorical or literal) communities you can spend the money to save the most beautiful American city.

Implied in your comments -- actually directly stated -- is that the 2 million in New Orleans aren't worth the money, the way those around the Zeider Zee are. Why would that be... little dark over there, ain't it.

Racism informed the coverage of Katrina, focusing on looters rather than the dying. Racism caused the panic that made the NATIONAL GUARD refuse to enter the city for a week, because gunfire (which we learned, if you get your news from anywhere but TV, actually was from suburban cops firing warning shots over the heads of New Orleanians trying to leave the city via a bridge) from negroes was rumored. I've been to New Orleans a dozen and a half times, and I know damned well what the wealthier white folks think. EVERYthing down there is about race, and that's a liberal, hated city in Louisiana. The suburbanites and country folk f-ing despise blacks, and are rejoicing in their removal.

Re:is NOLA not as important to the US? No!

[drcagn]

Great idea that Louisiana should come up with a way to pay for New Orleans flood protection. We'll start paying for New Orleans, y'know, when the federal government lets the state have the offshore oil revenue royalties it deserves like it does for other gulf coast states. If the feds didn't take what's rightfully ours, we wouldn't have to ask the feds for money.

Why bother?

[ArchAbaddon]

I just can't fathom why people are investing IT infrastructures in a sinking city, extremely susceptible to flooding because it's below sea level. Eletronics under several feet of water don't perfrom very well.

People should instead invest in putting buildings above sea level, instead of losing all of their investment when the next levee breach happens. Venice did this quite well IIRC. After that happens, then you can worry about gigabit connectivity and public wireless Internet.

Re:Why bother?

[mabu]

I just can't fathom why people are investing IT infrastructures in a sinking city, extremely susceptible to flooding because it's below sea level. Eletronics under several feet of water don't perfrom very well.

I can't fathom why someone would invest in any technology in Silicon Valley or San Francisco, where at any moment with no notice, a huge earthquake would destroy the place. Electronics under several tons of debris don't perform very well.

Every place on the planet has inherent risks. As an ISP in New Orleans, we were affected by the hurricane, but ONLY because the transfer switch malfunctioned. Our servers never lost power the entire time. The truth is, errors by people causesmore problems than "acts of god."

The destruction in New Orleans was caused by the Army Corps of Engineers, not Hurricane Katrina. Most ISPs and other shops were still online after the hurricane passed. It was the failure of substandard levees that was the responsibility of the Federal Government that did the city in. Improper building of any structure, in any location on the planet can cause similar results, above or below sea level.

Another reason non free software sucks.

[twitter]

This really struck me:

... The company has offices in Colorado and New Jersey, and the plan was for employees to fly there and keep working. The company expected to lose use of its data center, but by taking copies of its backup tapes and CDs of its software and software licenses, planned to create a new data center in Colorado, according to Jeremiah Tangen, IT administrator at the firm.

1. Data - check
2. Customized applications - check
3. Licenses - get out of here!

Don't forget the licenses as your save your ass! What kind of BS is that? Doesn't the company that sold you the stuff know what you have? What are they going to do, sue you? Those are rhetorical questions, obviously it matters to someone.

That's the beauty of free software. It's much easier to walk away when all you have to worry about is your data and the small collection of stuff you might have customized. It's going to work on whatever hardware you find and no is going to bug you about licenses.

The only color that matters is GREEN.

[HornWumpus]

As in the greenback.

BTW you can expect the white trailer park slums will also not be rebuilt quickly or directly. Rents and housing in general will be high cost in NO. Sucks to be poor. Should have paid attention in school.

Further any moderator that rated you Insightful should be metamoderated to oblivion. Race baiting is not insightfull.

2 million vs 15 million says nothing about the race of the people involved. The fact that the 15 million basically paid for their own flood protection also escaped your notice.

NO the most beautiful American city? Are you on crack? It was a tourist trap surrounded by slums. That at least has changed. Now it's just a tourist trap.