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17 Web Based Competitors to MS Office

prostoalex writes "Red Herring magazine takes a look at 17 projects in the Web 2.0 space competing with Microsoft Office for the attention of the office workers worldwide. The table lists Thinkfree, Zoho Writer, Writeboard, Google Writely, Rallypoint and JotSpot Live as Microsoft Word competitors, JotSpot Tracker, Numsum, iRows, Zoho Street as Microsoft Excel alternatives, S5, Zoho Show as PowerPoint contenders, ThinkFree, gOffice and Zoho Virtual Office as suite offerings. Even Microsoft Project has its fair share of Web 2.0 competitors: Basecamp and JotSpot Project Manager made the list."

153 comments

  1. Duh. by generic-man · · Score: 4, Funny

    And here I was, thinking I could write a text document without Internet access. How stupid of me.

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    1. Re:Duh. by Architect_sasyr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Heh, and if I didn't want to do it on the internet, how stupid would I feel.
       
      Laptop or Internet... Speed or Lag... Backups under my control, or trust a third party... Hmmm...

      --
      Me failed English...
      FreeBSD over Linux. If my comments seem odd, this may explain...
    2. Re:Duh. by muszek · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Taking all your crap wherever I go, how tired would I be. Forgetting or having no time...

      I use gmail for mail, moin moin (not exactly web 2.0 and not hosted by someone else, but who cares) for all our documentation, writely for documents I share with people outside of my project. I don't want to take care of spam, synchronize ~/.evolution whenever I switch computers, configure mail server (and any other service that's not necessary... hell, I even use afraid.org so that I don't have to mess with bind. Web based solutions are great if all you care is ease of use, convenience and saving time.

      Haven't tried any spreadsheets yet, but whenever (not often) I have to edit something that we've done in Excell (long time ago), OOo v.1.x (some time ago, b4 Ubuntu Breezy was out, I think) and OOo v.2.x, it's a real pain in the ass (converting to ods, taking care of permission, so that others can overwrite files, etc.). Having some hosted, based on ODF spreadsheet solution would be sweet.

    3. Re:Duh. by generic-man · · Score: 1

      In the US, to have a truly "always on" Internet connection over a mobile network costs at least $60 per month, and that won't work on airplanes or in areas lacking cell phone coverage. Until all these JavaScript "competitors to MS Office" have off-line counterparts, count me out. I like being able to compose documents without paying $700 per year in Internet access charges.

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  2. SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by irtza · · Score: 4, Interesting

    that is my online word processor of choice. I keep all necessary apps on an SD card with a portable reader. My documents are secured. My home server is backed up to resources under my control. plus I can use it from any one of the computers at my place. Its like a mobile desktop.

    --
    When all else fails, try.
    1. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by Chineseyes · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes but do you have a colorful G-O-O-G-L-E? huh do you?

      --
      I think the invisible hand of the market has its middle finger extended

      --A wise old fart named SC0RN
    2. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by Lord+Prox · · Score: 1

      I was just about to post the same damn thing. The responsivness is ehhh so-so but it works. Anyone know if the OOo folks are interested in doing a, ummm, HTTP:// version of OOo. OpenWebOffice or something of the like. That could be something nice and usable, standards compliant, open, familiar online and off.

      Just a thought...




      Place a curse on the RIAA MPAA and Microsoft

    3. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by Fyre2012 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's all great for uber l337 folks like yourself, but what about the rest of the world?

      You think Joe (or Jane) Businessman has any idea what ssh is? Or why on earth you're saving something to anywhere other than your hard drive?

      I'll admit, you have a cool setup (as cool as ssh and vnc gets anyway), but it really doesn't help the average business person in the same way that many of TFA's apps do.

      Being able to access documents via the web from anywhere needs to be as easy as possible for regular joe's, otherwise they have no reason to leave MS Office.

      --
      This is not the greatest .sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
    4. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by ChoppedBroccoli · · Score: 1

      Likewise I use Remote Desktop to log into my home computer to use my MS Office applications. Works like a charm, except for pictures (can't wait until 1-2+ Mbps upload links become prevalent across the US). Remote Desktop even works nicely in Linux too! MS Office online is only a Remote Desktop application away!

    5. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by x_MeRLiN_x · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes, he just might..

    6. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by kfg · · Score: 5, Funny

      You think Joe (or Jane) Businessman has any idea what ssh is? Or why on earth you're saving something to anywhere other than your hard drive?

      That would depend a good deal on the basic competence of his IT staff, wouldn't it?

      KFG

    7. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by FST777 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Indeed. Furthermore, all-webbased apps can be the future for enterprise computing. Have a couple of servers hosted under your own control and get some cheap thin-clients to work on them (with FF, offcourse :) )

      That way it can be much easier to access all resources from all over the world. Managers love that. Web-desktop can just be the Next Big Thing (TM) because it is available ANYWHERE with net-access.

      And you should know users. As soon as their company uses this tech, they will use it from home too. That is exactly why these projects ARE in fact great: they show that it is possible. Sure, you'll miss features now. But with good PHP/JavaScript/CSS/XHTML/XML-coding, nearly anything can be done. The problem is that there is no complete codebase now. That will involve some work, but it will be done, simply because the SB/MB's want it as soon as they remotely see the possibilities.

      The keys are access, and integration: have a webbased CRM/ERP-package, link that to your webbased Office-suite and link that all to your CMS / Webshop ét voila: the managers AND the customers are happy. In time, even the IT-departement will be.

      --
      Free beer is never free as in speech. Free speech is always free as in beer.
    8. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by benplaut · · Score: 1

      Are you aware of how long it would take to start up as a web app? good greif!! On a more serious note, there are enough web offices already, no nead for another.

    9. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      You think Joe (or Jane) Businessman has any idea what ssh is?

      It certainly seems to me that if Joe or Jane doesn't know what secure protocols are, they probably shouldn't be sending company data over the Internet.

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    10. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by Millenniumman · · Score: 1

      OpenOffice.org is possibly the stupidest name ever. Why is the ".org" there?

      --
      Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil. And you don't want to get any on you.
    11. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by legojenn · · Score: 1
      Why is the .org there?

      From Wikipedia's OpenOffice.org article:

      The project and software are informally referred to as "OpenOffice", but project organizers report that this term is a trademark held by another party, requiring them to adopt "OpenOffice.org" as its formal name,[1] and abbreviated as OOo or OO.o.

      --
      I make a reasonable middle-class wage by going to work and not spamming blogs with scams.
    12. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by Drakin020 · · Score: 0

      Exactly. This is why users will not be making this change. Also large businesses who utilize Sharepoint, and CRM will not want to change because no other app can integrate with other software like Office can.

      --
      The greatest revenge in life is massive success.
    13. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by nine-times · · Score: 1

      That's all great for uber l337 folks like yourself, but what about the rest of the world?

      For business users, their IT staff should be hooking them up with some sort of VPN, or at least SSL access to the businesses own web server. For home users, TFA's apps are probably good, but I, for one, don't particularly like my data on other people's servers (and I don't think I would even if I didn't know any better).

      Being able to access documents via the web from anywhere needs to be as easy as possible for regular joe's, otherwise they have no reason to leave MS Office.

      How about the lack of open standards, the financial expense, and being forced into the vendor's upgrade cycle? Now, maybe that's not sufficient reason for many people, but it's certainly a reason.

    14. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by dave562 · · Score: 1
      Being able to access documents via the web from anywhere needs to be as easy as possible for regular joe's, otherwise they have no reason to leave MS Office

      And with Micosoft SharePoint server (SharePortal Server), you will be able to access your documents from anywhere via the web.

    15. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by Fyre2012 · · Score: 1

      For business users, their IT staff should be hooking them up with some sort of VPN, or at least SSL access to the businesses own web server

      I completely agree with you, though I wanted to point out that not every business can afford an IT staff.

      Heck, many of the businesses I've encountered don't even have legit versions of Office to begin with. (Let alone windows)

      How about the lack of open standards, the financial expense, and being forced into the vendor's upgrade cycle? Now, maybe that's not sufficient reason for many people, but it's certainly a reason.

      Speaking from my personal experience (growing up in a rural community outside of Toronto), the small business owners I've met wouldn't know an open standard from an automatic transmission.
      The vendors upgrade cycle isn't as much The most effective reason, IMHO, would have to be the cost. Small business hate giving a chunk of their already small profits to a large software vendor. The cost of using pirated copies is worse, as there's no support, and we all know what happens to windoze machines after being used by the less-techie business person.

      Though I understand we're speaking about 2 completely different types of business (large-med urban vs. small-soho rural), I think it's important to point out that these types of web based services would be extremely helpful to smaller businesses trying to do things "the right way".

      --
      This is not the greatest .sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
    16. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by Eivind · · Score: 2, Informative
      Normal users don't set up and configure online wordprocessors. They only use them.

      What is so hard about the following:

      • Insert usb-thumb.
      • Double-click the icon that appears on the desktop.
      • Double-click the "Word-processor" icon.
      • Enter your password when prompted.

      That's not really harder than say with writely:

      • Start a web-browser.
      • Type in the adress of writely (or google it if you forgot)
      • Type in your username
      • Type in your password

      Both procedures should be within the capabilities of most normal computer-users.

    17. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by Gumph · · Score: 1

      they shouldn't but by God they do! everyday and in their millions. Joe and Jane could not give two wet farts for secuity protocols and they never will!

      --
      'By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes'
    18. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by ST47 · · Score: 0

      oh my...USB mousepads...

    19. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      The reason that I don't like to put my stuff on other people's servers is that I don't trust it to be available when I really need it. This is why when I was in school, and I went to print off a document, I usually FTP'd it to my school account, brought a copy on floppy disk, and put another copy on my web hosting service. This is just to ensure that if anything went wrong, I could still get access to the document and print it out. I guess i'm a little paranoid, with 3 copies, but it seems to me that often enough 1 of those copies would have something wrong with it, like the floppy drives wouldn't be working that day. And I always had two different file formats, MSWord and PDF, because you never knew when the 1 available school computer would fail to work, and you'd have to print from one of the 5 year old sun unix machines.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    20. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by flight_master · · Score: 1

      Hello
      I'd have to agree with you - I work outside of Dauphin, MB (that's 400 KM north of Winnipeg, Manitoba). Most of the busineses here are agriculture-related, or somehow related to government, with a few small chains (hardware, feed supplies, parts, etc) of three-four stores. A lot of these companies have no IT department, and neither do they give a hoot about what "IT" even stands for.

      I wouldn't necessarily say this is bad - but I really think this type of application would be excellent for such businesses. Instead of dealing with what (to them) sounds like rediculous nonsense about different 'versions', and 'licensing' they could just pay a flat-rate fee, connect all of their employees, and off they go.

      A while back, I converted one business (seed cleaner) to Webmail (Cubemail, to be exact). This business has four employees, two of which have computers, and E-mail. Do you know what kind of time they were having with using Outlook? Every time they went home, and checked their E-mail - it was on that computer. Next day, they carried all the paper back with them! Not to mention, they still couldn't access mail from public terminals, which was even more frustrating. Now that they're using webmail, they love it - and it greatly helped with their productivity.

      I know, this isn't really an example of a Office app, but it shows: a) Business people aren't all brainiacks, b) They don't all have IT departments, and c) thin-client / thick-server apps will become more and more common.

      --
      "Free software" is a matter of liberty, not price.
    21. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So whats so hard about combining all that into a simple to use script that 1) sets up the desktop for SSH/VNC 2) connects it up to DyDNS or the like and 3) on the USB drive, sets up the tunnel, starts VNC, and opens up OOO

      the average joe would have no problem using it, as long as a developer took the time to streamline everything.

    22. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by vhogemann · · Score: 1

      You should try FreeNX.

      It's an order of magnitude faster than VNC, and you have SSH encription built-in.

      --
      ---- You know how some doctors have the Messiah complex - they need to save the world? You've got the "Rubik's" complex
    23. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by dcdude · · Score: 1

      Agreed. Terminal service is the solution of choice of corporations (RDP and Citrix), not SSH and VNC hacks. Those so-called web 2.0 apps may be convenient if you are away from the office and you have to write a small doc in a hurry but I can think of a company that would make them their main applications. Companies like MS Office because it has a predictible cost (MS Office is not as expensive for companies as you'd think if you know which licenses to use). IT dept and users alike like Office because it has a well define set of features, it does not come up with "the new and improve interface of the week", the "server overload of the day" or the "sorry we are out of business of the the month". If M$ were to go out of business, I can still use MS Office on my PC. If gOffice goes out of business and "john doe user " must write a contract, it sucks to be him. If suddenly Google decides to charge $100.00/month to use Writely, what do you do when you have 200 people using it in your company?! Fat clients and desktop apps are not going anywhere and so far, web apps are just a convenient ad-hoc addition, not a primary tool. Finally, any IT manager working for a public company can problably understand why I wouldn't be crazy to tell the company auditors that company documents are stored on third party server with no or little control over their privacy.
      The list of reason why companies (that is where the money is for software vendors!) won't use web-based apps goes on and on and on and on...

    24. Re:SSH tunnel + VNC + OO.org by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I completely agree with you, though I wanted to point out that not every business can afford an IT staff.

      That's fair. I've not dealt with IT support of companies of that size, and I suppose hosted services would be worthwhile for that, especially if they don't have the sort of information they're worried about being out in the open. It's one thing to have customer/personal correspondence through another company's e-mail server, but quite another if you're sending company confidential data between employees that you can't let go out of the company.

  3. Web 2.0 office apps by DragonWriter · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Are they really competing with Microsoft Office that much? I'm not sure they really are: while there is some overlap (especially with where Office is headed), they seem to be somewhat different target universes of usess.

    1. Re:Web 2.0 office apps by radtea · · Score: 4, Insightful


      The very fact that there are 17 of them tells you that at least 15 of them are not competing with Office any more than a kid on a bicycle is competing with Lance Armstrong.

      Office is a mature turnkey desktop office suite for enterprise accounts (that sucks). These things are one step away from vapourware serving no one in particular.

      Hype hype hype hype. AJAX hype AJAX.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    2. Re:Web 2.0 office apps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've always wondered what problem exactly is it that they are trying to solve by moving productivity apps to the web.

    3. Re:Web 2.0 office apps by at2000 · · Score: 1
      Try to read some of their websites. e.g. http://www.editgrid.com/home says:
      • Access (files available everywhere)
      • Collaborate (edit the same file together)
      • Share (allow others to view my files)
      • Real-Time Update (see immediately changes made by others)
      • Live Data (feed e.g. stock and currency into my spreadsheet)
      • API (pull and push my data into other services)
      • Interoperability (write my own applications using my data)
      MS Office does most of them bad.
    4. Re:Web 2.0 office apps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice feature list, but I don't see the problem to be solved.

    5. Re:Web 2.0 office apps by hritcu · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The very fact that there are 17 of them tells you that at least 15 of them are not competing with Office any more than a kid on a bicycle is competing with Lance Armstrong.

      For now they are competing with each other, but at some point they will get into the way of Microsoft. Hope they are rife enough by then.

      And remember that Lance Armstrong was a kid on a bicycle once too.

      --
      If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough. (Alan Kay)
    6. Re:Web 2.0 office apps by Imsdal · · Score: 2, Insightful
      at some point they will get into the way of Microsoft.

      "will" is vastly different from the more correct "could possibly"

      Don't hold your breath waiting for that, though.

    7. Re:Web 2.0 office apps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... at least 15 of them are not competing with Office any more than a kid on a bicycle is competing with Lance Armstrong.

      Maybe so, but I'll bet the kid has more than one testicle.


      (I'm allowed to make that joke because I had testicular cancer too.)

  4. They missed... by The+MAZZTer · · Score: 4, Informative
    1. Re:They missed... by De+Lemming · · Score: 1

      The article mentions Google Spreadsheets, but it's not in their list of Office killers:

      "In March, Microsoft's online nemesis Google acquired an online word processing startup, Writely. Soon after that, it introduced its own version of an online spreadsheet. "Earlier we were a lone voice in the wilderness, but Google's acquisition of Writely had validated the business," said Mr. Kang."

    2. Re:They missed... by MyLongNickName · · Score: 2, Funny

      Google Spreadsheets competes with seeing Roseanne Barr naked. Both want to make you rip your eyes out and then commit suicide.

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    3. Re:They missed... by Propaganda13 · · Score: 4, Funny

      so it is competing with Excel then.

    4. Re:They missed... by hritcu · · Score: 1

      Yes they mention it ... but they forgot to put it in the table with the online spreadsheet apps. Not a big deal though.

      --
      If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough. (Alan Kay)
    5. Re:They missed... by ratbag · · Score: 1

      That link brings you to a page that highlights the short-term bane of these Web 2.0 things - "You're browser is not supported" - assuming you are using Opera. In reality I'm sure it works perfectly, but I'm not in the mood to tweak user agent settings right now...

    6. Re:They missed... by Imsdal · · Score: 1
      so it is competing with Excel then.

      I knew you were being funny, but the fact of the matter is that while a bunch of applications in the Office suite sucks, Excel is just incredibly great. It does a million different things, some of them outstandingly well, most very well and almost nothing in an awful way.

      Excel is so incredibly versatile, which is a blessing (when you are the user solving that particular ad hoc problem) and a curse (when you are the IT person trying to put all of your company's data in proper databases). Excel has a gazillion users, and will never be replaced unless at least all of these features are implemented: macros, graphs, all of the hundreds of predefined functions, pivot tables, easy data connectivity, an extraordinary GUI with hundreds of clever shortcuts and time savers...

      And, doubtless, dozens of other things as well. Suggesting that one should use another software instead that lacks even one of these features is ignorant at best, arrogant at worst.

      Replacing any other Office app should be pretty easy. For instance, Frame Maker for unix was better 15 years ago than Word is today. Power Point is nothing special. Access is a reasonable rapid prototyping UI builder on top of the worst "database" the world has ever seen. Visio is good but a memory hog and not used by too many people anyway. I have almost never used InfoPath, OneNote, Publisher and the rest but don't think I've missed out on anything there.

      To summarize this thread: It's Excel, stupid! And MS Office aint going away any time soon because of it.

    7. Re:They missed... by Skrynesaver · · Score: 1
      Excel is indeed very versatile for a spreadsheet. It's an acountants programming language. I once had a consultancy where this little analysis job was done in Excel, but then they started to ask more questions of it, and more, .... When a new dataset was added to the system, (weekly), it took Excel roughly 45 minutes to load, (when the whole acursed system didn't go belly up). I was brought in to move the whole system over to LAMP it took me weeks to go through all they had added to this spreadsheet. The whole thing worked out as one properly designed database, five perl scripts and a shell script, which answered queries instantly the data was available (for given values of an instant).

      Sorry about the extended rant but essentially what I'm saying is that Excel is way too complicated to be regarded as a spreadsheet and way too slow to be regarded as a good idea for solving the kind of problems it has now geared up for.

      --
      "Linux is for noobs"-The new MS fud strategy
    8. Re:They missed... by HuguesT · · Score: 1

      Excel is only nice if you've never used anything else to do number crunching. For a start Excel is inaccurate and sometimes downright wrong. Microsoft has known this for a long time and not done much to correct the situation.

      The thought that Excel is used to do anything serious involving decision making beyond simple spreadsheet calculations in the real world gives me the creeps.

    9. Re:They missed... by Propaganda13 · · Score: 1

      While it was funny, Excel does make me want to gouge my eyes out. It tries to be smart at the wrong times. When I try to do simplistic things that a basic spreadsheet program can do, Excel will do extra things that I don't want it to do. When I try to something that a smart program could interpret, it acts like a basic spreadsheet.

  5. Workflow by TrippTDF · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think there are some really intresting places you can go with workflow with an online suite. Suddenly you don't have people emailing links to documents on a file server or changing a file name to denote a new version... yes, they are managers that will do that work for you, but these systems can make that flow effortless.

    I've seen serveral groups of people already setup a basecamp and a writely account in order to colaberate on personal or non-work related projects, and it's starting to work. It's a new way of thinking that will take some time to bring to the light of day, but should make for an intresting "upgrade" to the current ways in which people work.

    1. Re:Workflow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I think that the best solution is something along the lines of use whatever you want to create your documents but manage your workflow better. I've used http://centraldesktop.com/ before and it is great in this respect. It doesn't try to change the tools you use to create your work, just helps you manage and share it better with co-workers.

    2. Re:Workflow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Netjective offers very basic web based workflow features.

    3. Re:Workflow by gutnor · · Score: 1

      Unless the world of tomorrow is radically different, it will take some serious legal analysis.

      With recent affairs of laptop full a confidential information lost, some companies have become really paranoid about corporate information. I'm not certain they will jump at the first opportunity to store their most confidential documents ( internal memo, contract drafts, internal documentation, ... ) on a third party system. Just imagine IBM, Sun, Microsoft, Google, ... storing data on each other server ? If each of them need to rewrite the whole suite of applications provided by others, there is no real improvement over Office.

      In non IT world ( and in paranoid IT world ) it is already common not having access to online email. So don't even think about an online office suite.

  6. Clarification by truthsearch · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'd like some clarification of your type-o. Is that "different target universes of users" or "different target universes of useless"? Because I could easily agree with it either way.

  7. What's the point? by NineNine · · Score: 1

    Can anybody summarize for me, what exactly, is the point of any of these products, and why I, or anyone else, should even consider using these things? Sure, they may be neat-o, but don't successful products generally have some sort of purpose?

    1. Re:What's the point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How could you NOT use it? It has AJAX! AJAX, I tell ya!

    2. Re:What's the point? by DragonWriter · · Score: 1
      Sure, they may be neat-o, but don't successful products generally have some sort of purpose?
      Insofar as they do, its not all too uncommon for the purpose to be thought of by some clever marketeer after the product exists. But the internet cafe phenomenon suggests that there is a large set of users for whom web-based applications and online storage make quite a bit of sense.
    3. Re:What's the point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      To be fair, one useful point is to have collaborative editing, with built-in version control and the like. If you've ever had to do a group writeup for a project or tried to organize some kind of gathering, you'll appreciate the value of this. However the majority of these tools seem to be just cool tech demos to draw some investor money.

    4. Re:What's the point? by dosius · · Score: 1

      Web apps are just the latest fad, and like every fad, they'll fade away when the novelty wares out.

      Now I'll just get back to hacking my text in nano, tyvm...

      -uso.

      --
      What you hear in the ear, preach from the rooftop Matthew 10.27b
    5. Re:What's the point? by OG · · Score: 2

      At least theoretically, it could make life easier for IT depts. Instead of having to push a new version of Office (or other non-Web based suite) out to hundreds or users, they update one central app. Google could provide a box that's plugged into the network. Documents are automatically stored on company servers, so there's one point of backup. Collaboration is more seamless.

      I don't see this being the perfect solution for home users. They're being developed on the Internet, but real revenue would come to selling to businesses who use their own servers for file storage instead of having their documents stored on Google or other third party servers.

    6. Re:What's the point? by stubear · · Score: 1

      You can already do this with Office and Windows Server. If you really wanted you could use Terminal Services and use thin clients as desktops. If it s true what slashbots always say, these shoudl be powerful enough to use a word processor and Outlook.

    7. Re:What's the point? by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      Let's see: many workstations connected to a central server that contains all of the data storage and applications. All controlled by a central IT department. Where have I heard of this before?

      I hear the echo of someone behind a glass wall asking me why I need anything more than punchcards and green bar paper..

    8. Re:What's the point? by noamsml · · Score: 1

      The general idea (as far as I can see) is that webapps like Writely are lighter and faster than most current office suit word processors, they allow you to store your files online and access them anywhere and they have good collaboration tools.

    9. Re:What's the point? by OG · · Score: 1

      But you're more tied into one operating system at that point. A mix of Windows, MacOS, and Linux would be much more easily served with these new types of offerings.

    10. Re:What's the point? by stubear · · Score: 1

      Wrong, but that's another argument in itself. Your original point was that these sorts of apps allowed admins to more easily update apps in one place and I countered with the simple fact that all windows admins worth their weight in gold know, this is already possible with current MS offerings.

  8. I'm from the future. by DysenteryInTheRanks · · Score: 5, Funny

    Listen, I don't know how to phrase this, so I'm just going to come out and say it: I'm from the future.

    I know that sounds crazy, but you have to believe me. When I went to sleep last night, it was 2006 -- nearly seven years from now!

    We had long since buried what you people, in this section of spacetime, circa December 1999, call "the new economy." We renamed that "the dot-com bubble." Over six long years, we learned to deeply regret having funded mediocre, copycat websites with humdrum ideas, cute names and wayyyy too much money to burn.

    This "Red Herring" you read so avidly went out of a business after peaking at 600 pages. All of the startups it writes about and collects advertising checks from will soon be out of business.

    I can't give away too much, because I've seen Back to the Future and know how dangerous it can be to frig with the timespace continuum. But I have a clue for you: when you see a cluster of companies whose names all sound like Atari 2600 games, WALK AWAY. I mean, seriously, "Rallypoint?" NumSum? S5?

    Oh, also? There's going to be a presidential election soon. No matter how alike you think the candidates are, vote for the one from Tennessee, not from Texas. The Texas guy is a FRIGGIN' FRIGTARD.

    Anyway, I gotta go try and crash some dot-com parties before I go to sleep tonight and end up back in 2006. Adios dot-com amigos!

    1. Re:I'm from the future. by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Red Herring used to be like Business 2.0, but they moved to India a while ago and went paperless (Net/Web-only). About the time I stopped reading them, was when I stopped investing in Chinese IPOs (made a mint, got out before people realized it's hard to liquidate your holdings in Chinese corporations that are normally held more than 50 percent by the Chinese government).

      They used to be insightful, but IMHO, their main target audience is now in India and that region of the world.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    2. Re:I'm from the future. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Can anybody point me to an Operating system that does NOT come with a text editor already?

      Emacs.

    3. Re:I'm from the future. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SNAP!

  9. Vi - it's what's for supper by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    because, face it, if you can't text edit with Vi, you really shouldn't be trying to work Open Source.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:Vi - it's what's for supper by HotBlackDessiato · · Score: 1
      because, face it, if you can't text edit with Vi, you really shouldn't be trying to work Open Source.
      With comments like that, you shouldn't be trying to represent Open Source.

      Please don't compare cl text editors with true word processors. Yes, you can write a book or business document in Vi, but think about it.
      --
      "If you don't have eyes you shouldn't have wings" -- Carl Pilkington
  10. I meant "users"... by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    ...though "useless" kinda works, when you consider how much better, e.g., TeX with the appropriate packages is at lots of the things that Word (or PowerPoint) are used for.

  11. Killer Apps - Calc for me. by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

    I really can't say I trust the trend towards "online only" and that other trend, "document vaults". Borrowing functionality at the price of depending on a certain type of access disturbs me. I thought we learned about stuff vaporizing from 1999, as mentioned elsewhere.

    Not counting special exports into MS office products, I don't do anything fancy with word processing. So I really have my eyes on Open Office Calc (and perhaps Thunderbird). Calc is in "Beta 2" as I recall. Let's say they're a year out from signing off on Version 2, and a year after that, doing Beta 3.

    If these guys have downloadable real apps that *happen to connect online* then I'll give them a hard look. If nothing else, the privacy issues bother me with "work on my server!".

    --TaoPhoenix

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
    1. Re:Killer Apps - Calc for me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If nothing else, the privacy issues bother me

      I hear ya..
      That scares me as well. I'll keep my online activities limited to just doing my taxes, banking, paying my bills, monitoring and viewing my VOIP and cell phone records, the DMV, managing my retirement accounts, car/health/life insurance, and mortgage maintenance online. My personal documents and letters I draft up? No freaking way man, way too risky if that got out.

  12. Really? by east+coast · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How is a word processor considered a competition for the entire office suite? Especially when you consider that MS Word is coming for free with a lot of systems and that Wordpad is just about as good as some of these web apps?

    --
    Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
    1. Re:Really? by l3v1 · · Score: 1

      considered a competition

      Easy, if you don't talk about the rest as being "competitors", however smartass ide that might be, you can't make MS Office a winner, or do you ? Nothing new.

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    2. Re:Really? by hritcu · · Score: 1

      Insightful? Read the Fucking Article before you post!

      --
      If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough. (Alan Kay)
    3. Re:Really? by east+coast · · Score: 1

      however smartass ide that might be, you can't make MS Office a winner, or do you ?

      What are you trying to say?

      --
      Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
  13. Where is the outlook clone ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    the killer applications of the MS Office suite isn't Eord or Excel, its Outlook with Exchange , public folders, sharepoint, active directory, GAL, calendars , reminders,

    all packaged in a nice point and click install interface managed by an equally nice point and click management enviroment (typing pages of shell commands in an 80's throwback style really wont do in the 21st century) and seamlessly integrated within the whole suite

    these online clones address none of that functionality and are nothing more than glorified text/html editors, its like trying to choose a linux distribution, hundreds to choose from, all doing more or less the same thing but badly (driver support, consistancy, etc etc)

    but whatever, us in the professional world will stick with what works well and the hobby gang will continue to emulate it , poorly

  14. I know that folks here are going to dis this stuff by bgfay · · Score: 4, Interesting

    but the fact of the matter is that if I had a truly portable, cross-platform office program even with limited functionality, it would make my life easier. I'm using Writely now and so far like it. I want to be able to write (that's what I do) and not have to worry too much about installs and upgrades and the like. The fact that writely saves in ODF format is great.

    Put it this way: I've been thinking about getting a MacBook but haven't wanted to run NeoOffice on it while running OpenOffice everywhere else. Beyond that, OpenOffice is a beast that can do most anything even when 95% of what I do is type plain text with minor formatting. Having the option of Writely that works in Firefox which, in turn, works on everything, is a bonus for me and opens up all sorts of options.

    All that said, I know that there will be times when the network will be down. I'll have other options. But as the network reliability has increased I worry less and less about this sort of thing.

    Say what you want about this or that other solution or about the redundancy of this, but couple it with Gmail and it's something on the order of a killer-app.

    --
    Yeah, I'm as old as my UID would suggest.
  15. Don't you think...? by WED+Fan · · Score: 1

    Don't you think that the word "competitor" is a bit strong? Come on! That's like saying your dad singing in the shower is competition for Adrea Bocelli.

    --
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.
    1. Re:Don't you think...? by conteXXt · · Score: 1

      You sir, have never heard MY dad sing.

      --
      The truth about Led Zep should never be told on /. (Karma suicide ensues)
    2. Re:Don't you think...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll settle for Adrea Bocelli in the shower. She's got to be hot!!

    3. Re:Don't you think...? by WED+Fan · · Score: 2, Informative

      In Italy, "Andrea" is typically a man's name. But, in this day and age, you can have your own strokes.

      --
      Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.
  16. Check out MICROSOFT's wrongdoing by applix7 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I kind of feel like Microsoft is either dead, or its limbs are dying while its head remains talking. Meanwhile the little companies are nibbling at the carcass of what used to be its market share. But I could be wrong about that. After all, I am using Windows now. But then again, I am using little of Windows except the core OS: I use Firefox, Thunderbird, and Vim. The parts of Windows that I use could be handled by many other OSes.

    Anyway, check out what MS has been up to (the short list) http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/malfy.html

    1. Re:Check out MICROSOFT's wrongdoing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If by dead you mean that MS is still making shitloads of money, then yes, it's dead.

  17. Monad by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...typing pages of shell commands in an 80's throwback style really wont do in the 21st century...

    Geee... I suppose that's also why Microsoft is overhauling their command-line shell, because it is so f**king useless. What looks like crap to the PHB isn't always crap to the guy who keeps that beautifully integrated Outlook/Exchange combo and all of those nifty organizational tools that management types like to play with working so deliciously smoothly.

    --
    Only to idiots, are orders laws.
    -- Henning von Tresckow
  18. Sadly... by Null+Nihils · · Score: 4, Insightful

    These sorts of "applications" would have been news half a decade ago if Internet Explorer hadn't paralyzed the Web. After all, the idea of remote apps running on thin clients (or brower-type software) has been around since the beginning. Really, the MSIE trick was brilliantly executed... a combination of the "bundling", and also beating the "competition" (Netscape) at the games MS already played best. Once MS had all but destroyed Netscape and the browser market, all it had to do was leave IE completely untouched, preventing anyone from using existing cross-platform standards to extend the Web to its inevitable conclusion: Remote applications that don't require playing nice with Microsoft's "platform", or following the "off the shelf software" rules. Had MS not shoved IE down everyone's throats with such timing and precision, things would be very different today... especially for Web developers, who would be writing fun, crazy stuff right now instead of drudging in ancient, stagnant pools of HTML, browser-compatibility workarounds, and hacky "AJAX" scripting.

    All is not lost, of course, because MS got lazy - or just plain dropped the ball - during the time it had bought itself by crushing Web development, what with the Vista delays, and the chair-throwing headache of their inscrutable arch-nemesis Google, et cetera. And lets not forget the heroics of Firefox!

    Anyways, people have a good reason to be skeptical about the actual apps in TFA, but keep in mind: These are but the first generation of a breed of software that has waited a long, painful time to become reality.

    1. Re:Sadly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Funny enough, that's not the way I remember it when I bought my the first computer I had with Windows 95 on it, a pentium 133. At that time, Netscape Communicator, the dominant browser at the time, ACTUALLY COST MONEY. Not only was IE free (it came with my computer), but it was loads better than the ungodly slow-loading beast that was netscape.

      I don't truly believe ANYONE at the time felt that Microsoft was shoving anything down their throats... more like Microsoft was handing out free candy and everyone was coming back for more. Maybe in hindsight, the candy was addictive and lead to cancer, but at the time, everyone thought it was great.

    2. Re:Sadly... by Null+Nihils · · Score: 1
      That's a good point... MSIE actually wasn't inferior software in itself, either, which was of course another advantage. It also doesn't help that Netscape couldn't handle the pressure of MS bearing down on them while both leading the Web revolution and needing to meet the requirement of turning a consistent profit.
      And of course, unlike Netscape, Microsoft didn't need to directly profit from MSIE; to them, it was merely a strategic tool to keep their monopoly on firm ground.
      Maybe in hindsight, the candy was addictive and lead to cancer, but at the time, everyone thought it was great.
      I must admit, at the time I didn't know any better either. =(
    3. Re:Sadly... by ClosedSource · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Doing web apps from a browser is going to involve ugly hacks simply because web "standards" were not designed for applications from the beginning. If IE had always been 100% standard compliant it wouldn't have made any difference.

      If the industry really wants to a have a clean design for web apps, they need to come up with a new set of protocols that are designed specifically for these applications. Otherwise it's going to be cookies and scripting as far as the eye can see.

    4. Re:Sadly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the flip-side, the whole reason AJAX scripting even exists at all is because of Internet Explorer and the Outlook Web Access team way back from Exchange 2000. Back then, XMLHTTPRequest (the heart of AJAX as we know it) was a proprietary Microsoft/IE extension, and it would be pure evil to use that! A couple of years later, Mozilla copied this extension from Microsoft (at least some understand that just because it was Microsoft's idea doesn't mean it's a bad one). The real reason it took until now to see web applications pop up is because it took until now for Google to start making them. It's not because they were impossible to make - it's just that innovation isn't easy.

    5. Re:Sadly... by BEHiker57W · · Score: 1

      That's not true at all. I was writing Web 2.0 applications long before modern XMLHttpRequest and the like. But compatilibity with IE4 and IE5 was so bad that a lot of the layout and interactivity tools needed wouldn't render consistently.

      It took years of quirk mapping and web standards workarounds to get off the ground for web applications to work right. And that is a direct result of Microsoft's deliberate squelching.

  19. EditGrid Online Spreadsheet by Mean+Variance · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I've become hooked on EditGrid for an online spreadsheet. I see them trying to compete with, and building a better product than, Google as much as MS. For many reasons, I had been looking for a good online spreadsheet and when I heard about Google, I was eager to give it a try. When the news was posted on Slashdot, someone made a reference to EditGrid.

    I sampled both and have committed many useful spreadsheets to my EditGrid account. They are constantly updating features and have yet to screw it up in the process from what I've seen.

    In many ways, I find the online features more useful than Excel:

    • Constant backups and rollback including labeling versions
    • Real-time multi person collaboration (yes, I really have used that feature)
    • Easy backup and download of entire spreadsheet portfolio in Excel format
    • Good API that they're constantly updating

    On the other hand, you couldn't pry my copy of Office 2000 (in particular Excel) from my cold dead hands. It's a very powerful, fast, and well established tool, period.

    1. Re:EditGrid Online Spreadsheet by hritcu · · Score: 1

      I think the only feature that would make web office suits worth it would be real-time multi person collaboration. You said EditGrid can do that. How responsive is it? Does it allow text messaging or voice? Does it allow commenting? I'm just curious.

      --
      If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough. (Alan Kay)
    2. Re:EditGrid Online Spreadsheet by at2000 · · Score: 1

      Around 3~5 seconds of delay. Messaging is not supported. I think if you want text messaging, any IM over there can do the job better than a web-based one.

    3. Re:EditGrid Online Spreadsheet by pjp6259 · · Score: 1

      Does editgrid allow you to copy and paste multiple cells to/from editgrid to something (html/excel/wikimarkup/comma seperated values)?

      That one limitation completely kept me from using googles spreadsheet. (Maybe there was a way to get the spreadsheet into a csv format, but what I really wanted was a way to transfer my current incarnation in without retyping everything.

      --
      Computers don't make mistakes. What they do, they do on purpose.
  20. Re:I know that folks here are going to dis this st by Penguin+Programmer · · Score: 1

    Sounds like what you need is LaTeX. Seriously, if what you do is type plain text with minor formatting, and you want something that's portable and available (nearly) anywhere, LaTeX seems like the best option.

    Plus, your documents won't look like ass. Major bonus.

  21. To little too late by LRBenson · · Score: 1

    First of all there was a time when a few companies had word processing, spread sheet and other "office" software that was competing with Microsoft. They either did not market their products well enough or those products did not offer the funcitonality and/or compatability of the MS Office suite and for the most part fell by the wayside. MS was not the leader in "office" type software, I know I had to use the other crap when I was in the Army and was relatively greatful to see some of the other products ditched (Although I will always have a soft spot for Word Perfect). MS came in strong and with what was at the time a far more superior product that what anyone else was offering as an entire suite that could work relatively well with each other and unfortunately for everyone else now hold the same kind of stranglehold over the market as their OS's do. Now, it's just like the OS market; there will always be a product that will cut into the market share of a company like Microsoft; hell when you have 85/90%+ of any particular market it's a lot easier to lose ground than gain it at that point. MS Office has entrenched itself so deep into the commercial, personal and government sectors so thoroughly that it will be quite sometime before they are no longer reign supreme. To prove my point, as most of you /.'s probably read as I did. When Pluto was reclassified and they decided upon using "Pluton" as a naming convention geologists were upset because that term is already used. But "IAU head Owen Gingerich is quoted as saying that he was only peripherally aware of the definition, and because it didn't show up on MS Word's spell check, he didn't think it was that important." I kind of rest my case on that note.

  22. So... by shodai · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Which one of these Web 2.0 Buzzword technology enhanced applications come as the default for nearly every computer? It's not competition if nobody knows about it or cares to learn it because Windows apps are already right there.

    1. Re:So... by skajake · · Score: 1

      They all do... isn't that the point? Once an app is web enabled the bundling and platform become 100% irrelevant.

      --

      ~ Maintainer of the Skajake Projects

  23. Basecamp + Writeboards = Great Document Collab. by viper21 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We've used Basecamp for the last year successfully for our business, which is great for working with our remote clients. We have had the opportunity to heavily use Writeboards within our Basecamp account for the last few months with our clients.

    The great thing about being web based is that we all see the same thing, and the document history of Writeboards is great to flip back through time to see the changes we have made.

    Now I don't see this as a replacement to Word for daily business use, but for document collaboration it is truly a great tool.

    Good job guys.

  24. Somebody's done their reading by fastgood · · Score: 1

    The state-of-the-art has benefited from Microsoft's 333 pages of Internet Standards and Protocols as well as their upcoming, 400+ page Guide to Defect Prevention

  25. Along similar lines... by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure that I'd call Basecamp a competitor for MS Project, either.

    I'm doing work on one project right now that's making use of both. For my purposes, Basecamp is more useful, but I don't see project manager types replacing MS Project or other PM systems with it any time soon. It's just not the same kind of thing.

  26. Re:I know that folks here are going to dis this st by bgfay · · Score: 1

    I think that LaTeX would be fine if I wanted to take the time to learn another formatting language. Back when I was at Clarkson University (before failing out, alas) I used something called Galahad which was a text editor on which users could apply formatting if they new all of the dot-A commands (.a ll=something or other and so on). I used to know most of those commands. I don't anymore.

    I've been using Gmail as a kind of portable text editor that keeps track of all my files online and it's good, but these apps are better. Maybe LaTeX and ftp would do the same thing, but why wouldn't I and most average users use these online apps instead?

    All I'm saying is that these things are going to appeal to a lot of people especially those who see that Dell now charges an additional amount to get Office instead of just tucking that price into the price of the machine.

    --
    Yeah, I'm as old as my UID would suggest.
  27. OOo at home and on the run by Lord+Fury · · Score: 3, Informative

    When I'm at home, OpenOffice does everything I need. When I'm anywhere else, I always use Portable OpenOffice from my flash drive.

  28. But... by psoplayer · · Score: 1

    how many office users even know about these services, much less choose to use them over M$ which is likely provided for their workspace?

  29. Re:I know that folks here are going to dis this st by dunng808 · · Score: 2, Informative

    LaTeX is hardly minor formatting. It is unsurpassed in creating good-looking printed output that must conform to a specific layout. Academic articles, books, screenplays, term papers. It is equally good at creating PDF files, the point being that these are virtual paper pages.

    People who are already handy with LaTeX can use it to do just about anything with it, but I would make the same observation about PowerPoint users.

    LaTeX is not an editor. When I work with LaTeX I actually use Lyx, a GUI editor designed to output LaTeX documents. Orders of magnitude easier than working with raw LaTeX.

    To see "minor" applied to LaTeX is like describing the Mississippi river as a minor waterway.

    --

    Gary Dunn
    Open Slate Project

  30. Bored? by Cousin+Scuzzy · · Score: 0

    Log into the zoho writer site using the demo account and browse through the documents that are auto saved as people try it out. I've seen medical documents, an employee's request for time off from Tweeter, a letter to an insurance company, all kinds of stuff. The demo account is insecure by design, of course. But I can't help but feel a little concerned about having all of my personal documents in the hands of an online service.

    1. Re:Bored? by quanticle · · Score: 1
      But I can't help but feel a little concerned about having all of my personal documents in the hands of an online service.


      No one is forcing you to use this service. If you're concerned about the privacy aspect, don't use it, or don't put your personal documents onto their servers. Just because you aren't confident in the service's privacy protection doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't use it to share and collaborate on other documents, especially ones that don't contain private or sensetive information.
      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
  31. greastest threat to Office is MS's own old soft by HotBlackDessiato · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In my experience, old versions of Office(starting from '97) have 99% of the functionality needed. With all those copies sitting around...who needs to pay MS for new versions?

    Office is the one thing Microsoft got right, and it's done, finished, paid for.

    The google thing looks nice, but there's no logical need to be online, so why? To decrease user privacy and gain more marketing info?

    --
    "If you don't have eyes you shouldn't have wings" -- Carl Pilkington
  32. Because. by hullabalucination · · Score: 1

    OpenOffice.org is possibly the stupidest name ever. Why is the ".org" there?

    Because extensive marketing studies conducted on North American consumers between the ages of 17-55 indicated strongly that "OpenOffice.bleh" lacked cross-gender name appeal and "OpenOffice.bling" made everyone want to go out and buy the latest Lil John and the East Side Boyz CD rather than do any serious office work.

    * * * * * *

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
    --Groucho Marx

  33. Re:I know that folks here are going to dis this st by killjoe · · Score: 1

    Same here. Once in a great while I might need a spreadsheet. Nothing fancy, just a basic spreadsheet. I really don't want to install some giant thing on my computer knowing that I will only use it three or four times a year.

    --
    evil is as evil does
  34. This is great by crossmr · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Until you lose your internet connection. My wife's law firm has had more than one disaster in their high-rise this year which has resulted in them being able to use their computers, but not get internet access. No one thinks of that until it starts costing you the equivalent of $5000-$10000 or more an hour to be without it.

    1. Re:This is great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're thinking internet, think intranet. You'd want your apps to be inhouse for security, speed, etc.

    2. Re:This is great by crossmr · · Score: 1

      The whole network was down. They had to run on backup power which allowed them to run most of their office machines, but not run their servers,etc.

    3. Re:This is great by kthejoker · · Score: 1

      So, uhh, how exactly would everyone "collaborate" with MS products if the networks is down?

      I mean, when your network is down, you're on your own. So the trick then is just to have offline equivalents of your online programs. And once your system goes online again, it syncs everything up again in one shot.

      I agree completely with the idea of having offline access to your files, but the point of all this "web competition" is the collaborative/groupware aspect, not the slim software setup.

    4. Re:This is great by crossmr · · Score: 1

      Not just off-line access to the files, but off-line access to your word processor, spreadsheet, etc.

      If you're using a hosted app, what do you do with your laptop if you take it out of the office and can't get back into the corporate network, or access to where-ever its hosted?

  35. Zoho writer? by hey! · · Score: 1

    I read that as Zohar writer. Which would be handy, if you want to write a Kabbalistic masterpiece in pigeon aramaic.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  36. Re:I know that folks here are going to dis this st by fermion · · Score: 1
    As much as the Neooffice people want you to think that the only solutions for the Mac are MS Office and their fine product, it is simply not true. I began to run OO.org on my mac a few years ago and have never regretted it. My reasoning was much like yours. I had to work on a PC and a Mac, and I had to have no document hiccups. I could access my .mac disk from all machines, and since all machines were running the essentially the same program, it was not a problem.

    The common complaint is that OO.org runs in X, and initially that was a problem. It is no longer so because Apple has implemented X very well, even with cut and paste between environments mostly working. The biggest issue is fonts, which can be easily transfered to X, and keyboard controls, which are more like the MS Windows controls than the Mac. If you are, like me, used to using many different machines it is not a problem.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  37. Well now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Some alternate title suggestions:

    "17 alternatives to the car"
    "17 alternatives to living in a house"
    "17 alternatives to working"
    "17 alternatives to breathing"

    All feasable, none very likely ;)

  38. True, but... by IANAAC · · Score: 1
    If you look at it another way:

    Instead of saving your documents online, why not save them on a thumb drive? That way you don't have to worry about actually having the program, and your data remains with you. True, you have the extra step of making sure your data is only saved on your thumb drive, but I like the idea of just carrying your data and not worrying about specific programs.

  39. Not so bad, really. by twitter · · Score: 3, Insightful

    here I was, thinking I could write a text document without Internet access. How stupid of me.

    Just think, some people think they can share text without Microsoft Word. Amazing isn't it?

    That's really what this is about, being able to co-operate in authoring formated text without having to sync everyone's $400 text editor. If all you want is to mod a configuration file, by all means use a free vi. If you have to co-operate with ten other people to make formatted text output, these services will be much cheaper and easier than the brain dead method common in the fortune 500 world, "standardizing on M$ Office" and the swapping bloated results via email. For internal documentation, these people should be moving to wikis. For anyone who still needs paper, and I'm not sure why they do, web services are a great way to go.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  40. How to advocate free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
    twitter, please read this carefully. Following this advice will make Slashdot a better place for everyone, including yourself.

    • As a representative of the Linux community, participate in mailing list and newsgroup discussions in a professional manner. Refrain from name-calling and use of vulgar language. Consider yourself a member of a virtual corporation with Mr. Torvalds as your Chief Executive Officer. Your words will either enhance or degrade the image the reader has of the Linux community.
    • Avoid hyperbole and unsubstantiated claims at all costs. It's unprofessional and will result in unproductive discussions.
    • A thoughtful, well-reasoned response to a posting will not only provide insight for your readers, but will also increase their respect for your knowledge and abilities.
    • Don't bite if offered flame-bait. Too many threads degenerate into a "My O/S is better than your O/S" argument. Let's accurately describe the capabilities of Linux and leave it at that.
    • Always remember that if you insult or are disrespectful to someone, their negative experience may be shared with many others. If you do offend someone, please try to make amends.
    • Focus on what Linux has to offer. There is no need to bash the competition. Linux is a good, solid product that stands on its own.
    • Respect the use of other operating systems. While Linux is a wonderful platform, it does not meet everyone's needs.
    • Refer to another product by its proper name. There's nothing to be gained by attempting to ridicule a company or its products by using "creative spelling". If we expect respect for Linux, we must respect other products.
    • Give credit where credit is due. Linux is just the kernel. Without the efforts of people involved with the GNU project , MIT, Berkeley and others too numerous to mention, the Linux kernel would not be very useful to most people.
    • Don't insist that Linux is the only answer for a particular application. Just as the Linux community cherishes the freedom that Linux provides them, Linux only solutions would deprive others of their freedom.
    • There will be cases where Linux is not the answer. Be the first to recognize this and offer another solution.

    From http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/docs/HOWTO/Advoca cy

  41. I know who the winner is going to be. by Spittoon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It will be the company that perfects importing and exporting to Microsoft Word.

    When people discover that they can use a better word processor AND not have to worry about working on shared material with their Word-bound colleagues, you'll see adoption soar in the non-geek workplace.

  42. Look at what they are selling and see the answer. by twitter · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How is a word processor considered a competition for the entire office suite?

    If you read so much as the summary, you would have noticed spreadsheets and presentation tools too. Those will go a long way to competing, even if they don't have as many features.

    If you understand what M$ is selling with M$ Office, you understand why the new services are such a great threat. What M$ is selling is the ability of "information workers" to co-operate in the creation of "complex business documents". What that boils down to is formatted text with a few graphs, figures and equations along with a presentation with the same. There's much FUD about Open Office not being able to work "100%" with M$ Office. It's FUD because M$ Office does not work 100% with itself because it's format has been ruined by decades of anti-competitive effort. The more they change it the less well it works. Web services leap all of that FUD in a single bound and provide better sharing and reliability to boot. If you had ten employees, would you deck them all out with $600 worth of OS and M$ Office so they can then abuse your network server with Word Docs and Power Point, or would you rather transfer a few bytes to a service you can invite anyone in the world to join as needed? If you don't buy the latest and greatest M$ Office every two years, the first option won't really let you share with others outside the company regardless of how long your users wait for email. More is on the way and these services will get better. When people get used to the new workflow, stand alone office suits with impossible file formats will finally be a thing of the past. Good riddance.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  43. Nothing comes close... by gaspyy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Mod me down if you will, but I've tried some of these apps, and I spent quite some time with Writely and Google Spreadsheets and I haven't been impressed at all.

    Writely and the other text processors are at the level of Windows Write, a way to enter text with some rich text formatting. I mean, forget Table of Contents or an Equation Editor (things I use in most documents), where are rulers, the user-defined tabs or the footnotes? How can you expect me to take these web apps seriously when I can't even set the header or footer or page size/layout?

    As to Spreadsheets... I can't even customize the cell formatting to include the Euro sign (€) instead of US Dollar.

    Like others have said,this is all hype. It may be cool to play with them for a while, but I don't see anyone doing anything serious with them.

        Armand
        www.RichNetApps.com

    1. Re:Nothing comes close... by Seraphim_72 · · Score: 1
      Armand www.RichNetApps.com [richnetapps.com]
      http://www.richnetapps.com/demos/editor/index.htm
      Um, pot, the kettle called....
      --
      Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
  44. Re:Look at what they are selling and see the answe by Imsdal · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Those will go a long way to competing, even if they don't have as many features.

    This reads like a joke but from the tone of the rest of the post, you sound serious. If so, I pity you and the coworkers you select applications for, if there are any. (Somehow, i doubt that.) Features are the very reason you buy stuff. Not all features are valuable to everyone, of course, but a complete lack of features is useless to everyone.

    You also talk about the reliability of web services. I wish you were right, but you are dead wrong. We have a hosted solution at work, meaning that when internet access is down, no one can do *anything*. And that happens at least once a month. We also travel a lot, so we all have laptops. Unfortunately, we can't use them for anything productive, since we can't access the hosted environment while actually travelling. (But hey, I am now supremely skilled at Freecell...)

    And finally, the FUD about MS changing file formats every two years is just flat out wrong. How often have they changed formats in the last ten years? Five times? I don't think so.

  45. Runtime Error - Line 396 by giafly · · Score: 1

    These comments would be a bit easier to read if I didn't get a Javascript Runtime Error whenever I scroll the page in IE - "Line 396, Error: Object Required", when using IE 6, 6.0.2900.2810.xpsp_sp2_gdr.050301-1519. Works on FireFox though.

    This is the sort of thing that discourages people from relying on Web Based applications.

    --
    Reduce, reuse, cycle
  46. Yes but by smithfarm · · Score: 1

    Yes but is anyone actually working on that? I've seen lots of converters, but all far from perfect. Google does a fairly good job of converting DOC to HTML, but it's just a rough approximation.

    Maybe the reason nobody is working on it is fear - of being sued by M$ (for reverse engineering, for example).

    --
    Om
  47. Basecamp by Heembo · · Score: 1

    I was recently forced to use Basecamp in a recent client engagement - and it was freeking pretty slick. Simple, just a touch of Ajax, and it freeking working. Bye Bye Bloated MS Project!

    --
    Horns are really just a broken halo.
  48. Oh, so THAT'S what Web 2.0 means! by Rogerborg · · Score: 2, Funny

    Today.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  49. Re:Look at what they are selling and see the answe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This reads like a joke but from the tone of the rest of the post, you sound serious
     
    Absolutely. If "changing file formats" were of a larger concern than features he would still be using an old version of Word Perfect and QuatroPro.

  50. Javascript means no dice by pmeunier · · Score: 1

    As long as these "web 2.0" apps rely on Javascript, they can't be trusted because Javascript is an exploit vector and a security headache. As far as I'm concerned, I'd prefer if Javascript didn't exist. Either a real security framework for Javascript needs to be invented (with access control policies), or Java needs to somehow be made as appealing as Javascript while remaining reasonably safe, or a new browser scripting language invented. The current situation with Javascript resembles the beginning of steam power, with boiler explosions. It's just unsafe.

    1. Re:Javascript means no dice by krouskop · · Score: 1

      Can you please elaborate with some details about these supposed "boiler explosion" level security concerns?

    2. Re:Javascript means no dice by pmeunier · · Score: 1

      When a javascript trojan is able to modify any of the registry keys or install new ones, I call that a boiler explosion. Whenever a worm or spyware installs itself through javascript, I call that a boiler explosion. Lookup the national vulnerability database (nvd.nist.gov); as of today there are 345 entries related to Javascript. Of course most vulnerabilities are not "boiler explosion" level but there are lots of malware (including spyware) that installs itself through Javascript issues; few vulnerabilities are needed for a host of malware to prosper. Client-side scripting in general is a huge security headache. It's like inviting a stranger from an L.A. street into your car or home. You never know what you're getting every time you click a link while you have scripting enabled. I don't like to play russian roulette. You may think that you know a web 2.0 app, so it's safer, but there are two issues: one is that it's a pain to manage javascript permissions on a site-by-site basis (the noscript firefox extension helps a little here, but it's far from perfect) so once you force someone to turn on Javascript, it's on for all sites, and second, your app itself can become a vector for attacks through XSS vulnerabilities. People tend to dismiss XSS vulnerabilities but it's a mistake, as a single one may allow an attacker to exploit a more serious issue. The NVD bears testimony on how hard it is for the average coder to write a web application without any XSS vulnerability. Web 2.0 apps aren't an exception.

    3. Re:Javascript means no dice by krouskop · · Score: 1

      First of all, you can't flatly blame the scripting language for the deficiencies of the hosting environment.

      Secondly, I can't take your rant seriously. At all. There are a plethora of Web 1.0 ways to compromise modern browsers:

      Even lynx isn't safe .

      I can only assume that you access Slashdot using nothing more than a telnet client and rendering the HTML with your mind, because those web browsers, well, like you said, they make surfing teh intarweb "like inviting a stranger from an L.A. street into your car or home. You never know what you're getting every time you click a link[...]. I don't like to play russian roulette."

    4. Re:Javascript means no dice by pmeunier · · Score: 1

      "Secondly, I can't take your rant seriously. At all. " That's because you don't understand cross-site scripting vulnerabilities. At all. Even if you made a perfect browser without vulnerabilities that implemented JavaScript to the exact EcmaScript specifications, you would still be vulnerable because the XSS vulnerabilities exist in the web applications, not the browser. The design of JavaScript enables this, because the separation between code and data is flimsy (you can insert JavaScript almost everywhere in HTML, with "on ..." events -- you don't even need a script tag); you couldn't do it unintentionally with a web browser that only understood Java, and a Java web application. JavaScript makes it very easy, just like C makes it easy to mishandle pointers and fixed length buffers. If C gets criticized for that, it's fair to criticize JavaScript for making XSS vulnerabilities easy. Microsoft's version of JavaScript is worse due to the insecure functionality (see http://www.quirksmode.org/js/intro.html) added *by design*. People keep getting surprised by the nasty stuff that standards-conforming, but malicious JavaScript can do, from simple stuff like undying windows (JavaScript spawns a new window every time it detects the closing event) from taking over your desktop, including exploiting intranet applications (recent example: http://www.phoneboy.com/node/6 ; original article at http://www.spidynamics.com/spilabs/education/artic les/JS-portscan.html). It's not surprising to me -- hostile code is much more powerful than hostile data (see below).

      You also don't understand how much more difficult it is to process hostile code than hostile data. You point out vulnerabilities in handling data as proof that there are other dangers. Given these, and how much more difficult it is to safely handle code than data, you should agree that it is reasonable to highly distrust a browser's handling of JavaScript.

      The more ignorant people are, the quicker they are to mock people pointing out security issues.

    5. Re:Javascript means no dice by krouskop · · Score: 1

      If you want to engage my argument — by all means; but unless you want to look childish, please avoid the ad-hominem attacks (you have no idea what I do or do not understand).

      Even if you made a perfect browser [...] that implemented JavaScript to the exact EcmaScript specifications, you would still be vulnerable...

      This is the point I was trying to make! The vulnerabilities are NOT the fault of the JavaScript language!

      ... because the XSS vulnerabilities exist in the web applications, not the browser. The design of JavaScript enables this, ...

      No, as you just admitted just a sentence ago, "the design of JavaScript" does NOT enable XSS!

      In all three types of XSS (DOM Based, Reflected, and Persistent) the fault is with the programmer (writing browser-side JavaScript code in the DOM Based case and writing server-side code in the other two cases) not validating data they are using to manipulate the DOM (DOM Based) or generate the HTML returned by the server (Reflected, Persistent). The fact that HTML allows a <script> tag is the very root of what allows this to exist at all; where the real fault lies is with the lazy programmer who is not validating the data. Neither the existence of the tag in HTML or the laziness of the programmer is the fault of the JavaScript language.

      because the separation between code and data is flimsy (you can insert JavaScript almost everywhere in HTML, with "on ..." events -- you don't even need a script tag);

      OK.... let's look at some JavaScript :

      var b = {x:'y', i:'z'};
      doSomething(b);

      Well, what's "code" and what's "data" seems pretty clear to me, b is holding some "data"; there's a function getting called as part of some "code", etc; but I imagine you are trying to refer to something along the lines of:

      <html>
      <head>
      <script>var a = 1;</script>
      </head>
      <body onload="alert(a);">
      </body>
      </html>

      The problem with referring to that though, is that's HTML, not JavaScript. (And you didn't title your comment thread HTML means no dice.) (Your assertion that you can "insert JavaScript almost everywhere" is flatly wrong too, btw; you can only insert it in <script> elements or in event hander attributes (onload, etc). You can throw <script> elements just about anywhere, but with JavaScript only existing in those two places, it's really not that hard to identify it as being "code".)

      you couldn't do it unintentionally with a web browser that only understood Java, and a Java web application. JavaScript makes it very easy, just like C makes it easy to mishandle pointers and fixed length buffers. If C gets criticized for that, it's fair to criticize JavaScript for making XSS vulnerabilities easy.

      More of the same... There is no reason someone couldn't (though plenty of reasons someone wouldn't) write a web browser that supported interpreting Java source code instead of JavaScript source code. And if that browser exposed the same host objects (like document) you'd have about an identical number of vulnerabilities, and the exact same XSS vulnerabilities.

      Furthermore, mishandled pointers arise directly out of a the design of the C language, for the about fifth time in this

  51. List missing 'charity' influence by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 1

    Interesting link, but it's missing MS' use of "charitable contributions", epsecially in the developing world.

    There's more published, especially in local papers, but as you see in the Salon article, it's part of an combination investment/PR campaign and both MS reps and shills come down on any thing other than "Yay Bill!" So questions and/or critique stay low profile and is hard to find.

    Also, the mention of tax breaks is a bit of an under statement. MS pays almost nothing: IT giants who don't pay tax part 2: how Microsoft does it. There's a bit of a stink about MS in Europe using foreign tax havens. And, by the way, MS seems to make more money buying and selling its own stock that in does even from sales of MS Windows. Bill hopped off as CEO the same year MS ran an $18,000,000,000 USD loss. Now he's stepped down completely. That could be interpreted to suggest that this summer's massive stock buyback could be an indication of real bad situation in Redmond.

    --
    Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
  52. Re:I know that folks here are going to dis this st by illumin8 · · Score: 1
    Put it this way: I've been thinking about getting a MacBook but haven't wanted to run NeoOffice on it while running OpenOffice everywhere else.
    Did you know that you can install OpenOffice on your MacBook?
    --
    "When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
  53. Re:Look at what they are selling and see the answe by Keith+Russell · · Score: 1
    If you understand what M$ (sic) is selling with M$ (sic) Office, you understand why the new services are such a great threat. What M$ (sic) is selling is the ability of "information workers" to co-operate in the creation of "complex business documents". What that boils down to is formatted text with a few graphs, figures and equations along with a presentation with the same.

    So far, so good, spelling errors aside. The feature race Microsoft got into with WordPerfect Office and Lotus SmartSuite created a lot of esoteric bloat. This is where a lot of these web-based tools are seeing an opportunity.

    There's much FUD about Open Office not being able to work "100%" with M$ (sic) Office. It's FUD because M$ (sic) Office does not work 100% with itself because it's format has been ruined by decades of anti-competitive effort.

    Ah, well. It was good while it lasted.

    Let's put the blame where it is due. Microsoft has made two fundamental format changes since Office 95. The first was in Office 97. It was different enough from 95 to break some compatibility, but it set the baseline for the 2000 and 2003 versions. Now, they're making the transition to XML, which started in 2003 and will be completed when 2007 goes gold. 2007 apps can save files as "Office 97/2003" format quite easily, or you can use the XML formats, which follow the "zip bundle" pattern used by OpenOffice.org and iWork.

    The problem Microsoft forces us to deal with isn't a format that seems to be ever-changing, even when it's not. It's the licensing. Because Microsoft has those Office formats so tightly coupled with their purse strings, they're loathe to allow just anybody to read and write Office files easily. Thus, everybody had to reverse-engineer the formats, and hope they got it right. In fact, I'd estimate that 75% of "mangled" Office files involve a reverse-engineered file filter.

    Office file formats are near to my heart right now. This is purely anecdotal, of course, but it eventually rambles its way to a point.

    I frequently work with PowerPoint at my church, where we use it to present song lyrics and scripture during worship. We have a bunch of lyric sheets in "PowerPoint" files that were exported from Corel Presentations when they switched to Microsoft Office. I put PowerPoint in quotes because, while the files have a .ppt extension, Corel made a figurative hash of the export. For a long time, I had to open the files in a hex editor on my Mac because neither Keynote (my preferred app at the time) nor OO.o (both on my PC and in NeoOffice form on the Mac) would open any of those files. It wasn't until I downloaded the beta for Office 2007 that I could open the files in PowerPoint itself. Even then, the formatting was a mess, and the high-order bit of every character with an ASCII code > 127 was unset, leaving a bunch of "=" and "Y" characters where Corel had SmartQuote-d apostrophes and ellipses.

    Notice where things really went wrong? By now, everybody has filters that can at least import well-formed Office files. But when an "unlicensed", reverse-engineered export filter (which I no longer have access to) fed malformed files to somebody else's "unlicensed", reverse-engineered import filter, I hit an impasse. And you see how this all works out for Microsoft in the end, as their product is the only one that makes an effort to salvage the bad files.

    Somehow, I doubt Office XML will be licensed on terms suitable for use in products under OSI-approved licenses anytime soon. But the XML itself should be easier to reverse-engineer, so we have that going for us, which is nice. But we're going to be suffering the consequences of Office 97/2003 format for years to come.

    (BTW, those Corel exports? I'm dumping the formatting and saving the lyrics as plain text. I am not going through this again.)

    --
    This sig intentionally left blank.
  54. Re:Look at what they are selling and see the answe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    twitter, please read this carefully. Following this advice will make Slashdot a better place for everyone, including yourself.

    • As a representative of the Linux community, participate in mailing list and newsgroup discussions in a professional manner. Refrain from name-calling and use of vulgar language. Consider yourself a member of a virtual corporation with Mr. Torvalds as your Chief Executive Officer. Your words will either enhance or degrade the image the reader has of the Linux community.
    • Avoid hyperbole and unsubstantiated claims at all costs. It's unprofessional and will result in unproductive discussions.
    • A thoughtful, well-reasoned response to a posting will not only provide insight for your readers, but will also increase their respect for your knowledge and abilities.
    • Don't bite if offered flame-bait. Too many threads degenerate into a "My O/S is better than your O/S" argument. Let's accurately describe the capabilities of Linux and leave it at that.
    • Always remember that if you insult or are disrespectful to someone, their negative experience may be shared with many others. If you do offend someone, please try to make amends.
    • Focus on what Linux has to offer. There is no need to bash the competition. Linux is a good, solid product that stands on its own.
    • Respect the use of other operating systems. While Linux is a wonderful platform, it does not meet everyone's needs.
    • Refer to another product by its proper name. There's nothing to be gained by attempting to ridicule a company or its products by using "creative spelling". If we expect respect for Linux, we must respect other products.
    • Give credit where credit is due. Linux is just the kernel. Without the efforts of people involved with the GNU project , MIT, Berkeley and others too numerous to mention, the Linux kernel would not be very useful to most people.
    • Don't insist that Linux is the only answer for a particular application. Just as the Linux community cherishes the freedom that Linux provides them, Linux only solutions would deprive others of their freedom.
    • There will be cases where Linux is not the answer. Be the first to recognize this and offer another solution.

    From http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/docs/HOWTO/Advoca cy

  55. Re:Nothing comes close... YET by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

    >As to Spreadsheets... I can't even customize the
    >cell formatting to include the Euro sign ()
    >instead of US Dollar.

    YET. Dude, it's *Google*. By next week, it'll
    let you *print* friggin Euros for free ...

  56. Re:I know that folks here are going to dis this st by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

    It won't be a killer app when you fire up the browser one day to read that your preferred silly-name company has gone out of business, sold to a commercial competitor, or worse... been hacked and all your documents are now freely available to be read be anyone (you may not care that your letter to mum is leaked, but a lot of companies that used this tool for all their sales documents will be pi**ed).

    This means that there is definitely marketspace for desktop, offline-based office apps, and the web tools are a niche for people who cannot or do not want to pay for Word, or do not use those apps enough to justify buying them. Everyone else will just want to sync their Word documents with the online 'sharing space' and very occasionally edit them. You'd be better off with a copy of Openoffice and run Owl on your webserver.

  57. $400 text editor? by iced_773 · · Score: 1


    Where? Even if that's too much for you, it comes with just about every new PC.

    As the AC suggested: "Avoid hyperbole and unsubstantiated claims".

    1. Re:$400 text editor? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "hyperbole and unsubstantiated claims" ? How about exagerating a bit, same thing you are doing in response? 200$ after reductions still makes for an expensive text editor. And the version included in new PCs is a 30 demo, nice try there.

    2. Re:$400 text editor? by iced_773 · · Score: 1
      And the version included in new PCs is a 30 demo,
      Not in any PC I've ever purchased. Word is there and stays there. Ever heard of the Works Suite that comes with virtually every Dell or Gateway PC? It also includes Greetings, Streets, and some form of Encarta.

      You've gotten Microsoft confused with McAffee, Anonymous zealot Coward.
  58. Perhaps I wasn't clear by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

    I wasn't referring to rendering issues, I was talking about things like saving user state and updating any visual element without clicking on a submit button, etc all without storing cookies on the client machine, placing hidden fields in the page, or executing a script or other hacks. A standard designed specifically for web apps should be able to handle these kinds of functions natively.

  59. Component-Orientation Is The Answer by tggreen · · Score: 1

    I think the answer to Office Software in general (not just MS Office) will be a switch to component-oriented systems. In a component-oriented world you don't need a giant company to produce a productivity application because smaller components produced by multiple third-party providers can collaborate to produce a better overall experience (e.g. a provider can concentrate on just producing the best spell-checker for use in larger environments). I have thought about this in more detail than I can post here, so please see the following URL: http://sourceforge.net/projects/verdantium/